THE HERD - Hour 3 - The AFC West is a powerhouse, the Broncos and Bo Nix will improve, Mark Schlereth

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Herd with Colin Cowherd

Hour 3 – “The AFC West is a powerhouse, the Broncos and Bo Nix will improve, Mark Schlereth”
Date: August 19, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, Colin Cowherd dives deep into the evolving power dynamic in the AFC West, focusing particularly on the Denver Broncos’ offseason and outlook under Sean Payton and rookie Bo Nix. He is joined by three-time Super Bowl champion and former Broncos great, Mark Schlereth, for robust analysis. The episode also explores high-profile storylines across the league, including offensive line developments, young QB-coach pairings (especially Caleb Williams and Ben Johnson in Chicago), and top young NFL talent. Later in the hour, Colin and guests discuss team and player rankings, team-building philosophies, and offer both insight and offbeat humor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. AFC West Heating Up & Broncos’ Offseason Transformation

[03:19–06:23]

• Denver’s Improved Roster: Colin emphasizes the “widespread agreement” that Denver had one of the best training camps and made elite acquisitions including Pro Bowl talents.
• Sean Payton’s Roster Philosophy:
  • Mark Schlereth praises Payton’s decisiveness in moving on from Russell Wilson despite the cap hit:

    “He doesn’t care what you think, Colin. He doesn’t care what I think. He knows what he wants and he was able to create exactly what he wanted.” (Schlereth, 04:31)

  • Payton’s approach: remove popular but ill-fitting players, build depth, and foster belief in “guys that want to contribute, work hard, sacrifice.”
• Team Depth:
  • Broncos’ 2nd/3rd stringers outclassed Arizona’s during a scrimmage, suggesting Denver’s newfound depth.
  • Schlereth:

    “They’ve got a very, very deep football team.” (06:01)

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2. Offensive Line Renaissance in the NFL

[06:23–09:14]

• Offensive Coaches Rebuilding O-Lines: Cowherd outlines how coaches like Sean Payton, Dan Campbell, Sean McVay, and Andy Reid have excelled at O-line makeovers.
• Case Study—Josh Simmons (Chiefs OL):
  • Schlereth ranks Josh Simmons as his “favorite player coming out in the draft,” citing advanced hand usage and footwork:

    “That dude dispensed justice… it was like a symphony watching his feet move.” (Schlereth, 07:18–08:40)

  • If healthy, Simmons represents “the steal of the draft.”

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3. Quarterback-Coach Fit: Lessons from Past and Present

[09:14–13:02]

• History of QB-Coach Pairing:
  • Elway benefited by switching from Dan Reeves to Mike Shanahan—a matter of “fit” not just coaching ability.
  • Schlereth and Cowherd discuss how not all talented duos are perfect fits, referencing Russell Wilson/Payton and the likely “imperfect” but potentially workable marriage of Ben Johnson (OC) and Caleb Williams in Chicago.
  • Schlereth’s take on Caleb Williams:

    “One of the big things coming out of college when I studied Caleb Williams is I thought there was too much improvisation… Run the play, improvise when only necessary.” (10:20, 11:40)

  • He stresses the “70/30 rule”—structure over improvisation for sustainable NFL success.

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4. Commanders’ Outlook & Terry McLaurin

[17:01–18:47]

• Schlereth lauds WR Terry McLaurin’s professionalism and importance:

  “He’s gone through that dry desert storm… you want to see [him] have some success with the team that drafted him.” (17:31)

• Belief that a deal will get done, hoping McLaurin sees postseason rewards for his loyalty and production.

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5. Fantasy Football & Lighthearted Banter

[18:47–21:13]

• Colin, Mark, and John Middlekauff trade favorite restaurant stories and lifelong food habits.
• Light banter about movie rewatch tendencies and upcoming Spielberg projects.

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6. Young Quarterbacks & Offensive Innovation Around the League

[21:57–29:04]

• Patriots’ Drake Maye:
  • Middlekauff says Maye is gaining Josh McDaniels’ trust, Cowherd highlights his athletic, competitive background and expects Maye/Vrabel to echo the Brady/Belichick efficiency formula.
  • Discussion on past failures to develop talent after Brady, and optimism on new draftees (Kyle Williams, Trayvon Henderson).
• Buffalo Bills’ Josh Allen:
  • Colin expects Allen (and Lamar Jackson) will break through eventually despite Mahomes’ dominance, emphasizing comfort with playmakers for veteran QBs.
  • Middlekauff sees the Bills as possible AFC East favorites, “should go 5-1 in the division.”
• Top Young NFL Talent (per The Athletic):
  • Noted players under 25 include Jamar Chase, Jalen Carter, C.J. Stroud, Aidan Hutchinson, Brock Bowers, with both Lions and Texans sporting three each in the top 10.
  • B.J. Robinson, Jared Verse, and Malik Nabers are discussed for breakout potential, but also durability questions.

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7. Team Building: Detroit Lions as a Model

[28:24–29:15]

• Lions Praised for Draft/Development:
  • Colin: “What have we said about the Lion success? Look upstairs, three Lions in the top 10 develop… they have a young safety, Brian Branch, he could be top 15.”
  • Middlekauff: “Jared Goff… for a little bit of an older guy, have a young vibe? Maybe it’s the California in him.”

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8. Caleb Williams & Ben Johnson: Learning Curve in Chicago

[32:50–37:29]

• Albert Breer on Bears’ Approach:
  • Bears are “feeding [Caleb Williams] through a fire hose” early on, pushing him to fail fast and learn what he can handle.
  • The staff hopes this “resilient player” emerges and they learn which plays suit him.
  • Colin offers NFL parallels—Tom Brady and Bruce Arians as a “not a perfect fit, but they won a Super Bowl.”
  • Early schedule may favor confidence or cause concerns depending on initial results against Vikings/Detroit. Cowherd emphasizes patience but points to a brutal late-season schedule.

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9. Top 10 NFL Teams & Power Shift Debates

[37:29–41:13]

• Chiefs’ Ranking Debate:
  • Colin controversially puts Broncos above Chiefs in his “herd hierarchy,” arguing offensive line and pass rush advantages.
  • Middlekauff pushes back, citing the Chiefs’ five Super Bowls in six years. Both agree fatigue and personnel issues raise questions for Kansas City in 2025.
  • Seahawks, Commanders, Rams, and Lions discussed as upside candidates, while declining teams include Saints, Jets, Giants, and Cleveland.

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Noteworthy Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Sean Payton and the Broncos:

  “He’s like, ‘That’s not the direction of this franchise… we got rid of popular players that weren’t the right guys.’”
  (Mark Schlereth, 04:31)

• On Josh Simmons, KC’s rookie left tackle:

  “That dude dispensed justice… Watching his film was like a symphony.”
  (Schlereth, 07:18)

• On Caleb Williams’ NFL adjustment:

  “Run the play, improvise only when necessary. 70/30 rule.”
  (Schlereth, 11:40)

• On Terry McLaurin’s value to Washington:

  “He’s one of those guys that you want to see have some success with the team that drafted him.”
  (Schlereth, 17:31)

• On the Lions' draft/development:

  “Three Lions in the top 10 develop, and also they have a young safety, Brian Branch—he could be top 15.”
  (Cowherd, 28:24)

• On the Chiefs’ perennial success:

  “Chiefs, I mean, been five Super Bowls in six years. Colin… But number two, I mean, one of those teams gotta win a big playoff game eventually, right?”
  (Middlekauff, 37:29)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Broncos’ Offseason Transformation — [03:19–06:23]
• Offensive Line Trends & Prospects (Josh Simmons focus) — [06:23–09:14]
• Quarterback / Coach Fit, Caleb Williams & Ben Johnson — [09:14–13:02]
• Commanders, McLaurin Praise — [17:01–18:47]
• Patriots’ Drake Maye & Developing Offenses — [21:57–25:44]
• Bills, Allen, and AFC East Discussion — [25:44–29:04]
• Top 25 Under 25 (The Athletic List) — [26:29–28:12]
• Detroit’s Young Core — [28:24–29:15]
• Albert Breer’s Take on Caleb Williams — [32:50–33:42]
• NFL Power Rankings Debate — [37:29–41:13]

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Tone & Style

Conversation is relaxed, opinionated, and occasionally playful, with Colin’s trademark analogies and Schlereth’s candid, detail-driven football insight. The episode is rich with football “insider” information and smart big-picture thinking about team-building and the evolving league.

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Useful For:
Football fans tracking offseason moves, Broncos, Chiefs, and Bears followers, and anyone interested in NFL team-building strategy, young quarterback development, and the power landscape of the AFC/NFC heading into the 2025 season.

Transcript

[Colin Cowherd]

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[Colin Cowherd]

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[Colin Cowherd]

Now let's get this party started.

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[Colin Cowherd]

So there's been sort of widespread agreement that one of the best camps was the Denver Broncos. So and one of the things that's interesting to me, they not only went out and acquired some new players, but really high end players. Hunga is a Pro bowl safety of healthy. Greenlaw is a Pro bowl linebacker of healthy. Evan Ingram should be a perfect fit with Sean Payton. And this was a team that led the NFL in sacks. And nobody knows the Broncos like Mark Slayer, three time super bowl champ, multiple time Pro Bowler Broncos for several years. Listen, I, I thought about this driving in today. I thought, you know, if you're Sean Payton, you could say, you know, I'm trying to get my guys ramped up. This young football team, I want them to believe in themselves. But it's not that young. Garrett Bowles isn't young. Cortland Sutton's not young. Greenlaw's not young. They got plenty of older players here. So I really do believe that Sean Payton believes this is an excellent top to bottom roster. What's impressed you most with the, with the two years of Sean Payton? What has he done that you look at and go, man, that was fast. I didn't think they'd do that. What would that be?

[Mark Schlereth]

Yeah, well, I think who won? He doesn't care what you think, Colin. He doesn't care what I think. He knows what he wants and he was able to create exactly what he wanted. One of the things, the big narratives in Colorado was, well, we should keep Russell Wilson because you can't afford that cap hit. Like you'll never be able to build a football team. Sean Payton does not care. He's like, that's not the direction of this franchise. That's not where I want to go. We can't win with that guy playing quarterback. And I don't care if we incur a huge, huge cap hit. We're going to get the right guys in this franchise. I've talked to Sean during training camp, I've talked to Greg Penner, the owner. And the difference between last year and this year was last year we hoped we could win. This year we know we can win. And One of the big moves we made is, even if it was a popular player, we got rid of popular players that weren't the right guys, guys that want to be here, guys that want to contribute, guys that want to work hard, guys that want to sacrifice for one another. That's how we're building this roster. And when you start looking at this roster top to bottom and I've been at both scrimmage, you know, I've been at the scrimmages. They scrimmage. San Francisco. I wasn't out in San Francisco, but I was at the team scrimmage between Arizona. The difference between the Broncos second and third teamers in Arizona, second third teamers. You can see the level of, of commitment they have made and the level of talent that they have in their backup players. So you can have an injury or two along that, you know, along that football team and they're still going to be able to perform because they've got a very, very deep football team.

[Colin Cowherd]

Well, one of the I've, I've been saying this for years is offensive coaches are better rebuilding O lines. P has their O line as second best in the league. Dan Campbell's an offensive coach. He's got a great o line. Sean McVeigh has rebooted his offensive line multiple times. Andy Reid, this will be his third rebuild. They're interesting because the two Super Bowls, Kansas City's got waxed in. They couldn't protect Mahomes. They went and got Josh Simmons. He was an Ohio State kid. Injuries, you tell me, like if he's not good against Denver and their pass rush, Kansas City's in trouble. What do you make? I think this is a really, you know, end of the first round mark is, is no man's land in the draft. Nobody wants to be there. Got pay a first round price. It's a second round player. What do you make of Josh Simmons? The Buckeye now a chief at left tackle. Is it a problem or not?

[Mark Schlereth]

He was my favorite player coming out in the draft. Wow. I studied him. I studied him and that dude dispensed justice. You talk about feet, you talk about hands, you like I just was like this was tie on the doorknob. Honey, don't come in here. I'm watching Josh Simmons film like it was that good. And then he tore his patella tendon. I think it was around week nine or whatever. I think the Kansas City Chiefs possibly got the steel of the draft. I think that Guy's a top 10 player that they got at 31. He is that good? Athletically gifted, but beyond that, man, one of the things you realize when you study film coming out of college is most of these guys don't have nuance, especially to play offensive line. And the game, it's just different. The college game is different. Most guys don't know how to use their hands, and most guys ultimately don't have great technique because they don't need it. And I watched him. I thought physically he was dominant. I thought he struck guys with his hands, which don't happen very often. And his feet, man, it was like a symphony watching his feet move. When I think of offensive line playing, I always had this kind of symphony in my own head. What I wanted my feet to sound like, right? I'm coming off the ball, it's 19 handoff. I want to get my second step down. My feet sound like that's what they sounded like, right? And I want to have that in my head. Or if it's a pass set, what my feet should sound like on a wide. Three technique or a four eye technique versus a three technique or a two technique. Like, I wanted to know exactly what that sounded like in my head. And when I watched this guy play, he's got that kind of footwork as a college player. Most college players don't. I loved him. I mean, I absolutely loved him. And if that dude's healthy, I'm telling you what, they got the steel of the draft.

[Colin Cowherd]

So you know this with John Elway, he had a very good coach in Dan Reeves, but it was a better coach in Mike Shanahan, and a lot of it was just fit. Nobody doubted that Dan Reeves could coach. It's a lot of it's fit and personality. You talked about Sean Payton, Russell Wilson. Personality, style don't fit. I've argued. And you see this sometimes where the artist marries the accountant, and it works, you know, like. And sometimes it doesn't. And I look at Ben Johnson, who I think is more. A little bit more like Kyle Shanahan. Run my damn play. Run my play. And then there's Caleb Williams, who I think has a little Brett Favre, which is sometimes in chaos. He's better, but you can't live that way in the NFL. And I've said this, I don't think it's a perfect marriage, but I do think it can work if Caleb sort of engulfs the offense. I mean, we've heard it practice. Bad days, good days, getting better, but not every. I mean, Dan Reeves and Elway, both great. It didn't really Fit. What do you make of Ben Johnson and Caleb Williams? I think it's an imperfect marriage, but I do think it could work.

[Mark Schlereth]

Yeah, I'm with you, Colin. I think one of the big things coming out of college when I studied Caleb Williams is I thought there was too much improvisation. I thought there was too much playing off schedule. And I think you saw that last year. I've said this many times taking sacks in the quarterback driven statistic. He took 68 sacks last year. That's a lot on the quarterback. Most sacks really become play caller and quarterback more than they become offensive line. The first thing, and I've talked to Ben Johnson this offseason, the first thing that Ben Johnson did was, hey, let's reassess what we're doing up front. Let's go out and get ourselves some offensive linemen that can play. I think that's big, but then it becomes play calling. And one of the things you don't see or you don't hear a lot or when we talk about Ben Johnson is the way he's committed to running the football. I'm doing a game, Detroit game a year ago and I'm thinking, man, this guy, like he has got to be the number one play caller in football from the standpoint of second long and third long run plays. And sure enough, he's right there in the top two or three in football. What he does is he's going to run the ball, create his play action, take some stress and pressure off the quarterback. The thing that Caleb Williams needs to learn is he needs to learn what I call the 70, 30 rule. 70% of the time you need to run the play. We need to be on schedule. When things do break down, then you have to be able to improvise and make a play that's 30% of the time it does break down, then go make a play for us. But if you live, and this is to me, Tyler's problem in, in Arizona, Kyler Murray's problem in Arizona is you want to play on a 50, 50 kind of schedule. 50% of the time I want to be free will and make big plays because it's really, it looks good and I'm excited and it gives me energy. But ultimately for an offense, you may make two or three big plays, but what you're going to do is you're going to fall to disaster three or four times and you end up not winning the game but losing it based on that stuff. So for me, run the play, improvise when only necessary. And I think the run game, the trick plays all the things that Ben Johnson does that creates excitement and fluidity in your offense. I believe that's where he's great. So I think he'll get that buy in from Caleb Williams. They'll eliminate some of those sack issues that really were a lot of Caleb Williams problems, not just the offensive line.

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One more herd the herd streams 24 hours a day, seven days a week within the iHeartRadio app search herd to listen live or on demand whenever you'd like.

[Mark Schlereth]

He's Mike Carmen I'm Dan Byer and we have a fantasy football podcast called I want your Flex.

[John Middlekauff]

That's right Dan. Every week we're going to scour the waiver wire to find the pickups to turbo boost your fantasy lineup. Sits starts fantasy football players rankings to get you ready to to dominate the competition.

[Mark Schlereth]

Listen to I Want yout Flex with Mike Harmon and me, Dan Beyer on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts and wherever you get your podcasts this Labor Day.

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[Colin Cowherd]

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[Colin Cowherd]

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[Colin Cowherd]

Finally, you, you played for Washington for several years. I don't love the Terry McLaurin situation at all because I think Terry's such a pro. You've done their games before. He's such a productive grown up adult pro at a position sometimes where you get big personality. I think they could be as good as last year, but not make the NFC championship because the NFC is better. What, what, what is your kind of forecast for the commanders that have suddenly become a really fun team to watch?

[Mark Schlereth]

Yeah, they're a really good team. Obviously, Jaden Daniels is incredible. Dan Quinn has done a phenomenal job out there of reestablishing the culture there that that was when I played there for Joe Gibbs. It was a crown jewelry. And they went through, you know, they went through years in the desert, obviously, and they're back now. Terry McLaurin is one of those guys that you mentioned, great guy in the community. Just a great, great teammate who is unbelievably productive. And when I travel around the league and I've done a bunch of Washington games, when you talk to coordinators around the league, they'll tell you, hey, our number one threat is McLaren. Like that dude just. That dude is. It doesn't matter who the quarterback is. That dude is set for 1100, 1200 yards and a bunch of touchdowns. He just, he just a difference maker on the offensive side of the ball. So I believe they're going to get that deal done. He belongs in Washington. He's one of those guys, to me that he has gone through that, that dry desert storm, if you will. He's one of the guys that you want to see have some success with the team that drafted him. And he's got that opportunity now. I hope they find common ground to pay him because he belongs to me as a Washington commander.

[Colin Cowherd]

By the way, you're packing up and leaving New York. What was your favorite little place when you lived in New York and your wife was there? What was your favorite place? Because I. When, when you, when I spend time in New York, I would always stay within like a six block area and I'd find my places. What was your place in New York? If I said, hey, Mark, let's go to lunch, where would it be in New York?

[Mark Schlereth]

Right down the street. I don't even know what the name of the restaurant is. I just know where it's at. It's right, like literally down the block. A little Bolognese place that we absolutely love. I know that I know Samba in Ada are, you know, the waitress and the hostess and they are awesome. And we always sit in their section and we go there probably three times a week. And they're so gracious and so kind. And the food is absolutely, like I said, hole in a wall. Absolutely phenomenal. And I don't know about you, Colin, but I'm this way with movies. If, like, if I watch a movie that I like, you know, my wife will go, let's find a movie. And she goes, you've seen this six times. I go, I know I'm not going to be disappointed. I love this movie, right? And if I fall asleep asleep, like if I fall asleep, I can wake up, you know, 20 minutes later, go, oh, this is a great part. Let's get dialed in, right? And it drives her crazy. But I'm the same way when it comes to restaurants. If I go to a place and I order a meal and I love that meal, I'll never order anything else off the menu. I won't go, let me see what else is on the menu. I go, no, I love the bolognese. That's what I'm having. Bolognese. I'm having bolognaise again.

[Colin Cowherd]

Yep. Now, we talked about that earlier today. Mark Schlar, as always, buddy, it's great seeing you. Checking in with you.

[Mark Schlereth]

Yeah, my pleasure calling, man. Take care, buddy.

[Colin Cowherd]

All right. It's so ironic that I brought that up 30 minutes ago. My wife will roll her eyes when I order chicken parm. And then during the break. What did you say to me? John Middlekopf.

[John Middlekauff]

Maria treats a menu like a draft. She tries to pick, you know, all these different flavors, all these different things. I pick the same thing. Every single place I go to, I have the same order.

[Colin Cowherd]

So it's got to be a guy brain.

[John Middlekauff]

It definitely is it 100. I'm the same way with movies.

[Mark Schlereth]

I don't.

[John Middlekauff]

We don't need to out think the room here. Give me the steak.

[Colin Cowherd]

I think I've seen Casino. I've seen Goodfellas, Silence of the Lambs. What's the one I'm thinking of? Shawshank Redemption, Ocean's 11. There's about seven, eight movies of some Spielberg stuff. If it's on. I'm like, I got 45 minutes to kill. I got. I got in no hurry to do anything. I was going to sit here. By the way, Spielberg's got a new UFO movie coming out. You know when you. This happens to me maybe once every other year. Like the second Top Gun was coming out, I'm like, oh, I can't wait. Or a new Mission Impossible. Or Oppenheimer was like, I literally went to the theater the first day I could. And that's not usually my vibe. Spielberg's got a UFO movie coming up and I'm telling you right now, it is supposed to be incredible.

[John Middlekauff]

I don't do aliens well, I hope.

[Colin Cowherd]

I never confront one. But I want to be prepared. I want. When Spielberg's going to tell me what to do, how to react. John, with the news.

[John Middlekauff]

No, no, no, no.

[Colin Cowherd]

Turn on the news.

[Fox Sports Radio Announcer]

This is the herd line news.

[John Middlekauff]

Okay? Drake May, he had a solid, solid rookie season, starting 12 games, throwing 2200 yards, scored 17 total touchdowns. But entering year two, May has a new offensive coordinator, a familiar face in Foxborough, and former Patriot Jason McCourty broke down the duo's on field relationship, saying that McDaniels is talking to May as much as possible. McCourty also added that May has gained McDaniel's trust and the OC is heavily communicating with him pre snap. Do you believe that Drake May will flourish under Josh?

[Colin Cowherd]

I do because Josh has a history of, you know, dealing with high performing, high standard quarterbacks. And I think if you look at Drake Mays family comes from an athletic family, basketball players, right? Yeah. And I think, I think he was one of the younger kids. You know, older brothers are great for a young athlete. Get picked on a little bit. You know, you have to play against older kids, your brothers and their friends. And I think, I think that's the vibe if I recall. I may be wrong on that, but I think Drake May comes from a hyper athletic family. I think he's a very athletic person. I think like Justin Herbert's comp, he doesn't want a lot of publicity. He just, he loves sports, he wants to play. And Vrabel's again a guy that has proven he can build an offensive line in a run game. And you know they, they haven't had a great wide receiver since Randy Moss in terms of down the field wide receiver. Edelman was obviously tremendous. So you know, it's they, they've won a certain way over the last 20 years. And I think Vrabel and Drake May will provide a lot of what Brady and Belichick did. No nonsense, committed, physical, relentless, always prepared, really efficient. I think he checks those boxes.

[Mark Schlereth]

You know, I know you have.

[John Middlekauff]

And a lot of people have been critical of the Patriots with Belichick's drafting over the last couple years. Once Brady left, you could argue they really fell apart when Josh went to Vegas. I looked it up when Schler was talking last year they averaged 17 points. The year before with Bill and Patricia they averaged 13 points. Their offense the last couple years has been anemic. And the one thing, because you look at the Patriots, you know, too deep on offense, it's not great. Randy Moss, Gronk, Edelman, those guys aren't walking through the door. But Josh is pretty good at working with random guys. And obviously you know the rookie running back is going to be highly touted, but I could see a couple like guys that aren't household names becoming pretty good players.

[Colin Cowherd]

That kid Kyle Williams from Washington State. Yeah, that's the one. I think, you know, they may have gotten the steal of the draft with Trayvon Henderson in the second round. They may have gotten one of the steals in the draft in the third round. If he pans out. But as a college player he was a jump off the TV screen player at Washington State.

[John Middlekauff]

Totally agree. Sticking with the AFC ease. The Bills have a ton of expectations this season after getting knocked out by the Chiefs in the title game and with Josh Allen coming off his first MVP award. Ever since Joe Brady took over Josh and the Bills offense has soared. Allen posted the lowest interception rate of his career. One thing Brady doesn't want Allen to worry about is keeping track of which receivers are getting how many touches. So Colin, do you believe this will help the Bills offense be even better this season?

[Colin Cowherd]

I think once you're a veteran quarterback you can throw it wherever you want. I mean I I think there was no question when you and I were watching the Patriots in their run older Tom on third down you knew it was going to Gronk Redelman. There was no question. I think even the all time great quarterbacks have comfort zones. I mean what's the first thing Tom did when he went to Tampa? Gronk I need my safety valve. So I once you're an older veteran quarterback I mean you know who Mahomes is looking for in third down in playoff games. Like I you throw to whoever you want. I don't have Josh doesn't need coaching in that once the ball is snapped I trust Josh Allen.

[John Middlekauff]

I think Josh and I would put Lamar in this too. Are two of the better quarterbacks I've ever seen.

[Colin Cowherd]

Same.

[John Middlekauff]

And they've just ran into Mahomes. I mean Phil was great. He ran into Tiger.

[Albert Breer]

Right.

[John Middlekauff]

So eventually one of these two guys is going to get them. The Ravens a couple of years ago had that home playoff game. You know the championship game at home. Chiefs got them. To me the Bills watching Hard Knocks and again the highlight packages they look pretty good. I mean I could see the Bills competing for the number one seed and we know this is the last year.

[Colin Cowherd]

Well and that old stadium jets could be a mess. Miami's been wobbly. Culture issues and New England still they're not necessarily in a total rebuild but they, they got they and they may have solved their issues in free agency in the draft but they're a young team in a lot of areas.

[John Middlekauff]

I would say it would be stunning if the Bills didn't go five and one in the division.

[Colin Cowherd]

Right. Six.

[Mark Schlereth]

No.

[John Middlekauff]

Potentially the athletic. One of our favorite sites just put out their top 25 and under in the NFL and Jamar Chase, Jalen Carter and Jaden Daniels lead the way. Here's the top 10. We got Jamar Chase, Jalen Carter, Jaden Daniels, Aiden Hutchinson, Brock Bowers, Patrick Strattan, Pene Sewell, C.J. stroud, Kyle Hamilton and Amon Ross. St. Brown. It's a little shocky. I thought he was like 30 years old. I mean, pretty good list. I noticed one thing, Colin. The Texans and the Lions both have three players on this list. And the Texans, their quarterback, their pass rusher, and their star corner, Stingley. To me, you know, he's not. I don't want to compare him like Deion Sanders or Darrell Revis, but I think in the next couple years, he can establish himself as one of the better defensive players.

[Colin Cowherd]

Number 11 better be Jared Verse.

[Mark Schlereth]

Yeah.

[Colin Cowherd]

Yeah, he is going to be. Last year there were times you were like, whoa, Jared Verse, pass rusher. Rams is going to explode this year.

[John Middlekauff]

Well, I got a guy for you, B. John Robinson. And I was talking to a buddy in Arizona who coached against him in high school, and this guy's been coaching forever. He said he's the best high school player I've ever seen. The hype at Texas, the hype when he got drafted, I think the hype he needs to start equaling. I gotta see it. He's a really talented player. But some of these other. I mean, Jalen Carter was arguably one of the best players in the NFL for the team that won the Super Bowl. I mean, this is like a Hall of fame.

[Colin Cowherd]

Yeah. I mean, I. If you took Chris Jones out, I mean, I think most GMs would take Jalen Carter today as your interior defensive lineman.

[John Middlekauff]

I. I think Malik Neighbors has a chance to be like Jamar Chase as a talent. He's just got to stay on the field.

[Colin Cowherd]

Yeah, he gets banged up. He's banged up again.

[John Middlekauff]

He gets banged up a lot. Jamar Chase, pretty good.

[Mark Schlereth]

Pretty good player.

[Colin Cowherd]

These are. It is. Amaron St. Brown must have graduated high school at 14, because I swear to God, he's been in the league six years.

[John Middlekauff]

I, I thought that same thing. I honestly, I thought he was 32 years old.

[Colin Cowherd]

John Middelkoff with the news.

[Fox Sports Radio Announcer]

Well, that's the news.

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And thanks for stopping by the Herd line.

[Colin Cowherd]

You had three Detroit Lions on that line list. What have we said about the lion success? Look upstairs, three Lions in the top 10 develop, and also they have a young safety, Brian Branch. He could be top 15.

[John Middlekauff]

He's a good player.

[Colin Cowherd]

I mean, so they could have four of the top 15 guys. That tells you, everybody looking at Detroit and Dan Campbell, it's upstairs. They. They got the right group. They have aced this year they went heavy on interior offensive linemen, which they had to. So they addressed an absolute need. It wasn't a great draft, so we'll see how that pans out.

[John Middlekauff]

Doesn't Jared Goff, I mean, for a little bit of an older guy, have a young vibe? Maybe it's the California in him. He just feels like very chill.

[Colin Cowherd]

Yeah, very chill.

[John Middlekauff]

Not much stress in his life.

[Colin Cowherd]

Yeah. Mark Schlerer stopped by today. Albert Brewer had really interesting comments on Caleb Williams. We'll wrap it up next. It's the Herd.

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Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd, weekdays at noon Eastern, 9am Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, FS1 and the iHeartRadio app this Labor Day.

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[Colin Cowherd]

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[Colin Cowherd]

So Albert Brer went to 23 NFL training camps and I joked earlier, you went to the most stoic and quiet in Green Bay, and then you went down to the circus in Chicago. And on the day he watched the Bears, he had thoughts about Caleb Williams.

[Albert Breer]

What Ben Johnson and his staff were trying to do with Caleb was let's feed him through a fire hose in the spring and then early in training camp and let's see what he can handle and let's see what he's good at and let's see what he's not good at and let's see how he learns. Let's see how he takes those early lumps and is able to compartmentalize them. And then over the course of camp, the hope was that they would get a more resilient player who's playing faster. And as coaches, they would get a better idea of what he was best at so they could build an offense based on that.

[Colin Cowherd]

So remember, it's not always easy. Initially, Tom Brady and Bruce Arians through 12 weeks were 7 and 5 and were stuffing and then they had a bye week and Brady's Like, I'm going to do it my way. And he and Bruce Arians, after the super bowl, you know, later, had a little falling out. But Brady, encyclopedic Brady and Bruce Arians, stylistically, you know, Arians wanted to go deep down the field more in his career. And Tom's like, now I want to pick up first downs, move the chains, protect the defense. Don't want to get hit. That was Tom's style. And through 12 weeks, remember that disaster they had against the Bears on Thursday Night Football? Brady screaming at everybody. So, like, Arians and Brady won a Super Bowl. It was not a perfect fit. Terry Bradshaw and Chuck Noel were not. Were not a perfect fit. And then you get Aikman and Jimmie Johnson. Aikman did exactly what Jimmy wanted. Toughness, leadership, accurate big plays. Sometimes I think Bo Nixon, Sean Payton feel like that's exactly what he wanted. A younger breeze with excellent feet, can move but will run his play. So, you know, it doesn't have to be perfect. The day that Albert Brear went there, he said it was awful. You. You very. You know, again, Elway had Dan Reeves. Dan Reeves could coach. Elway was better with Shanahan. Kyle Shanahan, frankly, always wanted Kirk Cousins because he would run his play. So, you know, golf's first six games under Ben Johnson, he had a 90 passer rating. That's it. 90 passer rating is B in the NFL, especially in 2025, that's just kind of a B. And then golf grew into Ben Johnson's offense, so. And I, and I do think it is sometimes. I mean, you want a gifted quarterback, sometimes it's harder. I don't care if you're a music teacher. It is harder with more talented students. They want to be driven hard, but they, you know, Caleb's got some stuff, some magic, and it works. Lamar, you know, it took years. Year three, finally you're like, okay, he can throw from the pocket now. So sometimes you have to convince players that this is better than that. But when that's been. Been successful in high school and college, it's hard to talk him off that style. So I. The next 11 games for golf. After struggling in the first six games with Ben Johnson, the next 11 games, his passer rating was like 104. So it just takes a while. And I think Ben demands a lot. Ben is going to be tough on Caleb and that, you know, that early schedules, a little bit of everything. They. They get the Vikings at home. Winnable game. Detroit, I think with new coordinators will be vulnerable Early. I mean, then they get the Cowboys at home, Raiders by Saints. There's some winnable games early, but you could see if the Minnesota knocked him off early and Caleb struggled against Brian Flores. You could see this thing going sideways very quickly because at the end of the schedule, packers at the Niners, Lions, packers before that at the Eagles. There's a lot of teams vying for playoff position from about week 13 on. That schedule is rough. So you got to make some hay early if you're the Chicago Bears. I had my herd hierarchy Today, my top 10 teams in the NFL, you guys can put it up there. I think Philadelphia has to be your number one. And then after that I think I would like to, you know, I think I would like the commanders and Rams higher if there weren't a Matt Stafford, Terry McLaurin situation. I do think the Lions will be good, not special. I don't think it's a dis to the Chiefs putting the Broncos ahead of them right now. I think Denver's got a much better offensive line and a better consistent pass rush. Anything do I. Is anybody missing John, when you look.

[John Middlekauff]

At that, I'm going to sound like Nick Wright here. But the Chiefs, I mean been five Super Bowls in six years. Colin, five Super Bowls. Okay. If you want to give the Eagles they just blast them in the Super Bowl. Fifth. Fifth.

[Colin Cowherd]

All right.

[John Middlekauff]

The Ravens, remember home field two years ago, took them out. The Bills, they played them I think four times in five years. Chiefs beat them every time. So yeah, I mean going in the momentum, I do think call me an Andy homer, but fifth, that's Eagles. No one's going to argue with you there. The Bills and the Ravens to me always deserve. I mean they've proven it. But number two, I mean you gotta. One of those two teams gotta win a big playoff game eventually, right?

[Colin Cowherd]

Eventually. I think I am higher on the Seahawks than certainly McIntyre. Where are you on the Seahawks?

[John Middlekauff]

I'll give you the Seahawks. Like that's kind of a bold move because the NFC is pretty wide open beside the Eagles. I mean you could convince me the commanders come back to earth a little bit that they might be better, but they win 10 games instead of 12 or 13. But the Chiefs 5i and the Rams pretty big wild card. You know, I think the Lions from a talent standpoint are a top five six.

[Colin Cowherd]

I think if Joe Alt stays healthy, the Chargers will end up in this spot. But I, I just got to watch because they're. That offensive line was one of the best tackle groupings in the League now you move alt to the left tackle where he's probably not as deft. And now you kind of cross your fingers at right tackle. Or do you move Becton to right tackle and then you're weaker in the interior. They were not very good in the interior line. They were not happy as a staff.

[John Middlekauff]

Still pretty dependent on some. You know, they resigned Keenan Allen, Mike Williams retires.

[Colin Cowherd]

I don't love their. I love lad McConkey but they, they Trey Harris at Ole Miss. Is he going to make an impact?

[John Middlekauff]

I mean everyone's really high on the the first round running back Hampton, but I mean that's a lot of pressure sometimes running backs come second, third, fourth round. Are the best running backs in the draft. Cleo Max, an older player. They're very dependent on him on defense. But their coaching staff is excellent. Chargers, I could see Jim Harbaugh. So their floor is really high. They kind of feel nine and eight.

[Colin Cowherd]

Yeah, well, that's my take. Their floor is really high. We know they're going to be competent. They're going to be above.500. But Denver now is good. Listen, if the Raiders are the fourth best team, Chip Kelly, Pete Carroll, Brock Bowers, Max Crosby, Geno Smith is fine if you give him a little time to throw and I think their own line's okay. So I will say this. There are teams that are bad coming into the season. Saints aren't going to be good. Jets aren't going to be good. I mean, we can write that down. Giants have talent but may not have a good record. Cleveland's going to be bad, but I. But there's some fourth place teams. I mean, if the Bears and the Raiders finish fourth, those are talented teams.

[John Middlekauff]

How do you have the Broncos over the Chiefs? They're in the same division. The Chiefs want to step well because.

[Colin Cowherd]

They added Evan Ingram, Hunga Greenlaw. Those are elite players.

[John Middlekauff]

Haven't won a playoff game in about a decade.

[Colin Cowherd]

Well, you know what?

[John Middlekauff]

New new group. I get it. But new coach Chiefs five Super bowl, six years.

[Colin Cowherd]

You have made that point during this segment. I don't even know what to do with Green Bay. I'm putting them there out of respect.

[John Middlekauff]

It gets boring picking the Chiefs. So I get it.

[Colin Cowherd]

Yeah, I'm not bored with him. Isn't there an argument of fatigue? How many snaps? I mean they've taken? It's like a baseball team that goes to the series. You come back to spring training and everybody's arms is fatigue. Kansas City's been in a lot of big close game year after year after year and all the suspensions at wide receiver, I think it's, I think it's the one pullback you year.

[John Middlekauff]

But they win all those games most.

[Colin Cowherd]

Of the time except Super Bowls. Then it's a wild card. Can't trust any there.

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[Colin Cowherd]

We'll we'll see you tomorrow.

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[Colin Cowherd]

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[Colin Cowherd]

A nice tan?

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[Colin Cowherd]

This is an iHeart podcast.