THE HERD - Hour 3 - The next NBA dynasty, more on the World Cup

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Herd with Colin Cowherd
Episode: THE HERD - Hour 3 - The Next NBA Dynasty, More on the World Cup
Date: June 15, 2026
Host: Colin Cowherd
Guests: Alexi Lalas (Fox Sports Soccer Analyst), Brian Scalabrine (former NBA player), J. Mack (co-host)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into two dominant storylines:

1. The United States Men's National Team’s (USMNT) historic performance at the World Cup, including analysis on key players, managerial impact, and the international perception of the team.
2. The evolving landscape of the NBA following the Knicks’ recent championship, the rise of small-guard-led teams (particularly Jalen Brunson’s leadership), and speculation about which franchises are poised to become the next NBA dynasty.

The tone is energetic, insightful, and conversational, packed with memorable analogies and direct exchanges that shed light on both soccer and basketball's current state.

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Key Discussion Points

1. United States Men’s National Team World Cup Analysis

Historic Win vs. Paraguay

• Colin Cowherd and Alexi Lalas celebrate the USMNT’s group stage performance as the best in US history.
  • "It was monumental. It was historic. As you heard me say, it's the best performance I've seen from a US Team at a World cup in group stage in history. [...] put it in a museum." (Alexi Lalas, 04:18)
  • Team displayed possession with purpose, depth in creativity, and ruthless playmaking.
• The win was not downplayed by the level of the opponent; instead, US made a solid team look bad (as Zlatan Ibrahimovic apparently remarked off-air).

Sending a Message to the World

• The aggressive and relentless style under coach Mauricio Pochettino, even after scoring, sets a new tone for US soccer.
  • "Pochettino's game plan, even after goals was hyper aggressive." (Fox Sports Radio Host, 06:13)
• The US is “sending a message” that they can punish top teams for mistakes—this builds a domestic “siren” that the team’s identity is shifting.
  • "That's a characteristic, and that's a behavior that we haven't always had as a team." (Alexi Lalas, 07:23)

Key Players: Balogun and Pulisic

• Folarin Balogun: Decision to join USMNT is paying off; he’s decisive in the box, fits team culture, and his value is rising.
  • "When they go out there in the red, white and blue, when they represent this country, despite all their incredibly diverse backgrounds, they have a unity and a sense of responsibility. [...] This is great. His value just keeps skyrocketing." (Alexi Lalas, 09:09)
• Christian Pulisic: Thriving as a playmaker more than a pure scorer; draws defenders, has strong chemistry with Balogun.
  • “He feels more Magic Johnson than he does Larry Bird... more set up and can finish than just a finisher.” (Fox Sports Radio Host, 10:50)
  • "Whether he scores or not, he draws defenders, he draws attention, he can assist. [...] I like the partnership that they're developing up top." (Alexi Lalas, 11:29)

Injury Updates

• Pulisic suffered a minor calf knock; optimism he'll play the next game.
  • Pulisic: “Great half from us. I got a bit of a kick to the back of my calf, but I'm hoping it's nothing serious at all... I'll be back for the next one.” (Christian Pulisic interview, 19:57)

World Cup Upsets and Surprises

• Spain's dominance, but unable to score vs. Cape Verde—a new team with only 612,000 people—underscores the unpredictability of this expanded World Cup.
  • "This is historic from the Blue Sharks of Cape Verde. Incredible, incredible scenes on the field." (Colin Cowherd, 13:31)

Additional Game Highlights

• Japan vs. Netherlands: Japan equalizes dramatically in stoppage time.
• Variety of upsets and draws highlight the tournament's new dynamics with more teams and underdog mentalities.

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2. NBA: The Next Dynasty and Jalen Brunson’s Rise

Post-Dynasty NBA Landscape

• After the Warriors (KD-era), each champion has felt like a “one-off” or happened in extraordinary circumstances (Raptors, Lakers, Bucks, Warriors again, Nuggets, Celtics, OKC, Knicks).
  • "I got fooled by Denver... They become very, very Jokic dominant... Then the Knicks win—the only one. Like, I don't think Denver felt very, very repeatable. And the team that hasn't won a title, San Antonio, feels very potentially repeatable." (Colin Cowherd, 33:09)
• Adam Silver’s parity-obsessed NBA is here: 8 different champions in 8 years; not rigged, unpredictable outcomes.

The Knicks’ Championship Formula

• Knicks’ run was situational; the East was weak, but their fourth-quarter dominance, star durability, and coach's adaptability made a difference.
  • "What makes the Knicks really special is how good they've been... their best quarter easily is the fourth." (Colin Cowherd, 38:12)

Jalen Brunson, Undervalued Star

• Discussion on Brunson’s perceived limitations as a small guard and his transformation into a clutch playoff closer—likened to Steve Nash and Russell Wilson ("never gets hurt. Totally durable. Team leader.").
  • "He's like Phil Mickelson. He's a tough shot maker. He makes some and takes some really tough shots." (Colin Cowherd, 24:55)
  • "If you're asking me right now, 30 seconds left, game seven of a finals... I would take Brunson 100%." (Colin Cowherd, 42:30)

Brunson vs. SGA (Shai Gilgeous-Alexander)

• J. Mack boldly claims Brunson is the guy you’d want in the clutch over SGA, citing his “10-0 run by himself” in a Finals closeout game.
• Brunson’s media response to doubters: "I didn't respond to 'em then. I'm damn sure not going to respond to 'em now." (Jalen Brunson, 24:21)

Team-Building Philosophies

• Brunson and Luka Doncic didn’t work as a pairing due to high-usage overlap. The Knicks’ unselfish construction—role players, collaborative offense—is the modern title blueprint.
  • "Most championship teams, there are pieces and elements to them that fit. They're collaborative. It works together." (Colin Cowherd, 27:02)

NBA’s Future Outlook

• The Spurs (with Wemby) and Knicks are both seen as likely Finals returnees. Boston, Detroit, Indiana all expected to improve.
• Scalabrine and Cowherd discuss how great teams adapt during playoff adversity.
  • "When you play a certain style... with the Knicks, when things weren't going well, one way, they just adapted to a different way." (Brian Scalabrine, 39:14)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Alexi Lalas on USMNT’s performance:
  "It's the best performance I've seen from a US Team at a World cup in group stage in history... put it in a museum." (04:18)

• Fox Sports Radio Host on Pulisic:
  "He feels more Magic Johnson than he does Larry Bird... more set up and can finish than just a finisher." (10:50)

• Jalen Brunson’s response to critics:
  "I didn't respond to him then. I'm damn sure not going to respond them now." (24:21)

• Colin Cowherd on the state of NBA parity:
  "We have seen, you know, J. Mac, you and I. For years. And NBA is rigged... If it's rigged, why did they wait 53 years for the Knicks?" (39:43)

• J. Mack on Brunson versus SGA:
  "Jalen Brunson on the road, Game 5, has a 10 nothing run by himself... To give him the lead with Wemby on the floor, the best defensive player ever." (41:57)

• Brian Scalabrine on growth and adaptability:
  "When you play a certain style... finding a guy that's going to make a play... those little plays make a big difference." (39:14)

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Important Timestamps

• 04:18: Lalas on the USMNT’s historic World Cup group performance
• 09:09: Discussion of Balogun’s decision and impact
• 11:29: Pulisic’s role as playmaker and partnership with Balogun
• 13:31: Cowherd on Cape Verde’s historic tie vs. Spain
• 19:57: Pulisic’s post-game injury update
• 21:49: Dramatic Japan vs. Netherlands equalizer call
• 24:21: Jalen Brunson’s response to criticism
• 33:09: Cowherd on NBA’s unpredictable champions
• 38:12: Knicks’ fourth-quarter dominance
• 39:14: Scalabrine on Knicks’ playoff adaptability
• 41:57: J. Mack on Brunson’s clutch Finals performance
• 42:30: Brunson vs. SGA and clutch player draft

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Final Thoughts

This episode captures a pivotal moment in US soccer and the NBA’s ongoing evolution. The analysis provides a nuanced look at team identity, the importance of adaptability, and how individual star narratives are reframed by collective performance and championship pedigree. For sports fans who missed the episode, this summary delivers the essential insights, flavor, and standout moments that drove the day’s conversation.

Transcript

[Colin Cowherd]

This is an iHeart podcast guaranteed human

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

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[Fox Sports Radio Host]

Thanks for listening to the Herd podcast. Be sure to catch us live every weekday on Fox Sports Radio and noon to 3 Eastern, 9am to noon Pacific. Find your local station for the [e-mail] or stream us live every day on the iHeartRadio app by searching Fox Sports Radio or FSR. Now, let's get this party started. You're listening. Welcome to FOX Sports Radio. This segment is brought to you by Halion, Official Partner of U.S. soccer and the maker of Sensodyne, Toms, Voltaren, Advil and Centrum, the brands behind your everyday wellness wins because every goal starts with

[Commercial Announcer]

an assist on and off the field.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

Learn [e-mail] iHeart Alexi Lawless, Fox Sports soccer analyst, is joining us. I mean, anything can happen at the World Cup. Spain has a 27 to 6 shot advantage. I was saying about the United States men's national team. We had 16 shots on goal. Pulisic had none. Yeah, if you'd have told me that number going into Paraguay, I'm like, oh, we didn't score. We did. I think that's what impressed me most, was the depth of our creativity and our playmaking. Your thoughts?

[Colin Cowherd]

Yeah, I think you did a good job of outlying why this was so monumental. And it was monumental. It was historic. As you heard me say, it's the best performance I've seen from a US Team at a World cup in group stage in history. And certainly that first half was, you know, put it in a museum. The way in which this team played was something, as you said, that American soccer fans and Americans in general do not associate with the men's team and in that, you know, kind of our insecurity, because I've heard a lot of, well, you know, it's Paraguay and everything. And, you know, I was talking to Zlatan Ibrahimovic, who we've been working with, and he made a point of saying, no, you made them look bad by what you did. And so don't let anybody try to dismiss this performance relative to the opponent. And I know we sometimes do that. But this was, this was the culmination of a lot of years and wrapped up in a package that people, whether you follow soccer or not, could appreciate the amount of chances that we that we took what we created, the amount of possession that we had, and not just possession, that possession, but possession with purpose, it all clicked. And so even in days after, I'm still buzzing, I'm still proud of that performance and I'm also very, very excited and hopefully they can harness all of that good and go forward because there's another team coming and they will have seen that performance. And this team's in the form of Australia, who obvious who also won their first game. And you better not piss this goodwill away, because there's a lot of people that have come into this tent and now are saying, yeah, you have excited me with what you did in that first game. So I hope Mauricio Pochettino and I, I'm sure he is, is making sure that you take the good, but you also recognize that you got to follow it up. And that's what good teams do, is follow up and use that performance.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

We had won previously. You and I discussed this. We were more set pieces, more of a rock fight. If we scored early, we scaled back. Pochettino's game plan, even after goals was hyper aggressive. And I wonder the message this sends to the world's best teams. I noticed this in the German game is that after we that great goal and that we still were aggressive, we weren't settling. But I wonder Germany was a bit less aggressive offensively. And my take is when a fighter is truly dangerous, I don't care if it's UFC or boxing the opponent, regardless if you have a good chin or not, you just tread lightly into certain spaces. I wonder if we sent a message to the Spains and the other teams when they look at this, I mean, Germany knows, they play this, Senegal knows. But when you have that dominating a performance, it does make. Everybody's going to look at that film that faces the United States and what will that message be to other top teams? Does it. Does it matter at all?

[Colin Cowherd]

I think it matters. Are, you know, Spain and France, is it keeping them up at night what the US Is? No, not even with this performance. But it's almost as if it's. It's much more important internally, domestically, to kind of sound that siren that, hey, this is something different. This is something that you can get behind and there will be ups and downs as this team goes through this tournament. You're not going to be able to. To sustain that. But, you know, you mentioned something that I think is part of sports, right? A, A ruthlessness, going for the jugular, taking your foot off the pedal. All you know with all these different phrases that we have. But. But the recognition in the moment that there is opportunity and not letting anybody take it away from you and pushing to do that, you saw that consistently, consistently with this team. And that's a characteristic, and that's a behavior that we haven't always had as a team. And so I think that message will have gone out to others that say, you know, this is a team that if you give them opportunities, they are going to exploit it. And by the time you figure it out, it could be too late.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

Baligan's an interesting player. He played at the youth level for us in England. He was a striker. He was a goal scorer for Monaco. He chose us. And the story I've heard is that he could play a more central role in being our dominant striker. Were you surprised had you seen this? I mean, he. I always feel with great athletes, it looks a little easier. They don't labor over it. When they get. When there's a small crevice, they take advantage of it. It's an opening. And it's like they always say about great hitters in baseball. You know, they. They just need a little angular, gradual mistake to get a base hit. What do you make of Baligun, his talent? Did you expect this?

[Colin Cowherd]

Well, so, first off, let's talk about the dual nationals. That's something that's been in play now for a long time from the US Perspective and all teams. And there's almost a, you know, a college recruiting type of thing where you have to go out there and you have to, you know, put out your. Your best foot and appeal to players that have multiple options here. And you also have to be careful that it's not a mercenary type of thing. And I don't think that that's the case at all when it comes to Baligan. But he also also looked at his opportunities, and I think US Soccer sold him on this is where you're going to get opportunities not just to play, but to be part of something. And, you know, the interesting, you know, all these different characters kind of coming together mirrors our society, mirrors our culture and our country and ultimately working together. But there was a recruiting process. There continues to be a recruiting process. But I think ultimately, when they hear that national anthem, when they go out there in the red, white and blue, when they represent this country, despite all their incredibly diverse backgrounds, they have a unity and a sense of responsibility. And I think they've also recognized what is in the offing this summer and that opportunity. So a Baligan right here for him individually, this is great. His value just keeps skyrocketing and I think it affirms that choice that he made to come and play for the United States and as a team. More and more people coming into this tent, more and more people are watching you again. I hope that they. I hope that they follow it up with a performance. Doesn't have to be the same performance. And as a matter of fact, it's probably going to be different against Australia. But ultimately, let's get those wins because that's what Americans love the most.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

So they. Pulisic got some heat. AC Milan. He didn't score a lot of goals, but he was third in that league in assists. And as I watched him in this opener, is that we are better when he scores. But he feels more Magic Johnson than he does Larry Bird. He's more set up and can finish than known as just, you know, like, like, like just a great finisher. Some guys are just great scorers and he can do that. But I do feel like Baligan is a perfect recipe for Pulisic's natural game because he, to me, he feels more playmaker than score. And I could be a mile off on that.

[Colin Cowherd]

No, no, no.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

But that's what it feels like to me.

[Colin Cowherd]

Yeah, that Christian didn't score like you said. I think is, is. Is a good thing. He's fine. Christian Pulisic is going to be fine. I, I know, you know, we all watch what he does at AC Milan or wasn't doing at AC Milan, and we were worried, but the national team is just a very, very different environment. And sometimes that door closes on that plane. When these guys leave their, their. Their current situation from a club perspective and show up with this team, a very different player emerges. And I'm happy to say that that is what has happened with Christian Pulisic. Whether he scores or not, he draws defenders, he draws attention, he can assist. And when you're talking about Baligan up there, even his two goals, if you look at the different way in which they came, he's ruthless in the box. And so as Christian Pulisic is beating players, he is where he needs to be in order to finish plays. And you look at his other goal, where he made a wonderful, wonderful run and you got to find him with that ball, but he can create things alone also. So I think there's a good understanding, I think there's a mutual respect. And I think Christian Pulisic, when he is dribbling, when he is taking players on, once he breaks through, he's got to have somebody to put the ball in the net or to drop other players. So I'm not worried about Christian Pulisic, and I like the partnership that they're developing. Up top.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

Yeah. Carmelo Anthony could get you a bucket. Brunson can get you one, but can also set up others and draw attention. There's different ways to do it. Alexi Lawless, Vox Sports. You're doing a great job. Television's on in the house, everywhere we go. It's great seeing you, my man.

[Colin Cowherd]

I love it. I love it. Let's go. Friday against Australia. Come on back. Come on back. It's going to be fun.

[Brian Scalabrine]

America.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

All right. Thanks, man. Oh, we do have. Oh, Spain. Number one team in the world, played Cape Verde. I don't know a ton about Cape verde. Small country, 612,000 people. This is. This some of the video. Spain had a draw. Now they had dominant time of possession almost 75%. Okay, Alexi, still with us. Alexi, what do you make of this outcome?

[Colin Cowherd]

This is amazing. This is historic. As we know, this is the largest World cup in history. Onto 48 teams, there was a lot of, you know, grumps out there who are worried about allowing teams like Cape Verity in. This is. If this is going to be our first 00 and it is of the World cup, let it be historic. And this is historic from the Blue Sharks of Cape Verde. Incredible, incredible scenes on. On the field. I'm sure there's incredible scenes in Cape Verie and with the Cape Verdeans all over the United States and all over the world.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

27 shots. And you can see as we show you this video, several of them, Ben,

[Colin Cowherd]

but don't break my man. You know. You know, soccer, you can. You don't even have to have the ball and you can find a way to get a result. And they did. It was valiant in terms of the effort.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

All right. Great stuff. Oh, it's wild. All right. Live in Chicago, it's the Herd. Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd, weekdays at noon Eastern, 9am Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, FS1, and the iHeartRadio app

[Stew G]

Stugatz. Here I have a podcast empire. It continues to grow, and I have brought it here to iHeart. I'm also doing a live radio show from 3 to 5pm Eastern because my wife wanted to kick me out of the house. It's called Stugatson Company Live, which is available in podcast form right when the show finishes. Every. Every single day. Some of the biggest names in sports, a lot of phone calls.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

I love you guys show.

[Colin Cowherd]

It's one of my favorites.

[Stew G]

A lot of interaction, guys not taking themselves too seriously. Those are just some of the things that you can expect from Stugouts Co. And Stegotson Co. LIVE. So listen to Stew Gots Co. LIVE and our original podcast. Please subscribe, rate and review Stugats Co. And God bless football. Taylor's livelihood depends on it. Do it today and you can check all of those out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your Podcast

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

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[Commercial Announcer]

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[Fox Sports Radio Host]

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[J. Mack]

All right, let's get started with Team USA and the World cup and the Christian Pulisic injury. I really cannot find the video where he got kicked in the calf.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

Yeah, I can't find that either.

[J. Mack]

That's weird. None of the Internet sleuths can find it. So I don't think this is gamesmanship, but we have an interview with Pulisic and Tom Rinaldi right after the match where he talked about the injury.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

Great half from us. I got a bit of a kick to the back of my calf, but I'm hoping it's nothing serious at all. So yeah, we'll do everything. I'll be back for the next one. I'm going to give everything I can to be back, that's for sure. So I'm not going to give you 100%, but, yeah, I'll be there.

[J. Mack]

So the very latest, seven minutes ago, they're talking about. Christian Poulis is doing a modified training session today. I don't know what that means. Maybe going half speed could just be a bruise. It's really unclear. It's like college football. You don't know the injury until kickoff. Really?

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

Is it possible? I'm reading a report here before Paraguay. Oh, shoot. Practice.

[J. Mack]

Interesting. Well, listen, if you're up three nothing at the half, I don't have a major issue like when they initially pulled him. It's like, okay, we're up three nothing. No big deal.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

No, I don't either. And we didn't.

[Commercial Announcer]

We.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

We had a kind of a different. In the second half, I thought we were, you know, after they scored, we were a little more. A little more conservative, eating the clock, you know, kind of think about this.

[J. Mack]

If it were one nothing at half, do we pull him? No, probably not, right? Yeah, I don't think they do. So that leads me to believe it's good, you know, a kick as opposed to a strain which everybody, you know, nobody wants to mess around with the calf.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

Pochettino said it would happen before the game. So. Because I was like you when I read about it, I went to YouTube. I looked it up. I was like, I don't see it.

[J. Mack]

Yeah, no, he seemed to be moving fine. He was destroying the Paraguay defenders in an exceptional performance. All right, let's go to a match that happened yesterday. Colin. Japan, Netherlands. So I had a buddy at this game, and at halftime, 00. He's like, this is kind of a snoozer. The second half was electrifying. Oh, my gosh. Netherlands takes a one nothing lead. Japan ties it then two one. Here in the 89th minute is Darren Fletcher with the call on Fox of the game. Tying goal by Japan.

[Colin Cowherd]

Surely they've got to go short, try and play their way in.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

You watch, they'll score from this one.

[Colin Cowherd]

Now I've scored this first.

[J. Mack]

Oh, they have as well.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

They have scored. I called it astonishing. 2 2. What a moment for Japan. And didn't you just know that was going to happen?

[Colin Cowherd]

It's Coco Ogawa with a massive goal

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

for Japan off the bench. 2 2.

[Colin Cowherd]

And we're level again in Dallas.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

Wow, that's great.

[J. Mack]

I love the calls from these announcers. So many good ones now, Colin, A result just finished. Spain drew a 00 against Cape Verde, who I never Heard of. This is their first World cup ever. It just came out of nowhere. Colin, this. We've seen some craziness, okay? Switzerland, Qatar was 1:1 on a Qatar goal, like the 94th minute or something crazy. Colin, I'm just telling you. I thought unders would be the play. The gambling has been all over the place because there's so many new teams and a lot of folks are doing this low block defense or they're like, we don't want to lose. We just want to play for the tie. Survive in advance in the group stage. Because if you lose like Tunisia did last night, I don't know if you saw their man. They lose to Sweden 5 1. They fired their manager today after the first game of the World Cup. Again, you can't just show up and get destroyed. You got to hang tough. Here are some of the Spain highlights. Yamal came on, I think about at the 70th minute and was was spicy. The keeper for kept denying Spain. It was an unbelievable game. Every game's great. Belgium, Egypt is coming up right after us. Let's go to the final story. Colin, let's go to the NBA.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

You're gonna keep your eye on Belgium, by the way. We could eventually play them. Keep your eye on Belgium.

[J. Mack]

Belgium, very good. Interesting. So the odds after the finals were done come out for next season. The spurs are the favorites to win the Finals. The Knicks have the fourth best odds next season behind the Celtics.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

Yeah, that one I don't get. I do get OKC because J Dub would be healthy. It's hard to repeat. I get that.

[J. Mack]

But I think this narrative that you got to latch onto, you know, as a small guard myself, I've had a lot of doubters, Colin. The doubt for Jalen Brunson and these Knicks is staggering. So Brunson was asked about it. Remember Becky Hammond made these comments blasting him, he can't win a championship. He's not a 1A. Did you hear what Brunson said afterward? Here's when the media asked him about it.

[Colin Cowherd]

What's your message for people saying that

[J. Mack]

you're not a one a guy?

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

I didn't respond to him then.

[Colin Cowherd]

I'm damn sure not going to respond them now.

[J. Mack]

That's what I'm talking about. So. So this guy won at the high school level as an undersized guard. Goes to Villanova, wins championships, goes to the Mavericks. They didn't want to offer him a $55 million.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

55 three of the four years he was there, they had a winning record

[J. Mack]

and then he Goes to the Knicks and now wins a championship. Colin, can we bury this narrative about Jalen Brunson? You know, he wasn't a first round pick. He's not six' five. He's not, he can't jump out of the gym. I don't, I don't know how many dunks he had this season, but it's gotta be like under two and a half.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

He reminds me of a little bit like Nash where Nash two time MVP just sort of befuddled people. He did that one handed move to the basket. Could always get his shot with or without a screen. I think sometimes Jason, people don't understand how few players in the NBA can get a good look consistently without a pick, without a screen. And Brunson's one of those guys. He is a, he's like Phil Mickelson. He's a tough shot maker. He makes some and takes some really tough shots. But I also think we underscore sort of his durability. He's a thick, he's a thick athlete. I said this about Russell Wilson, is that they were both sort of overlooked, both thick, both just didn't get hurt. He's playing 70 plus games. A much bigger athlete. Luka feels constantly dinged up. Austin Reaves constantly dinged. So Brunson brings a lot of things to the table. You know, I think you and I talked about this during the NBA season but you know, we owe it. You and I grew up with Dr. J's an amazing athlete and, and, and, and Jordan's amazing athlete. But when you really look at the NBA as it's become more international, the best player, I mean relative to being, you know, Michael Jordan. But I mean like Brun's aunt is a great athlete, but I like a lot of the international guys are highly skilled. They're not great athletes. So that's kind of what I see in the NBA right now. Now Tatum is very, very athletic, but a lot of the better players are, they bring more to the table than a vertical jump and a cone drill. And they're just, they're fundamentally very smart, skilled players who are durable and play well with others. And I think that's Brunson.

[J. Mack]

Yeah, it's, it's really incredible what he's accomplished with these Knicks. But I do think Colin, if you build correctly around a small guard, of course you can win a title. Now let me ask you this, this is crazy. So the Mavericks had Luka and Brunson had them both. They let Brunson go and traded Luka. Do you think if they kept those two together, they would have been able to win a championship?

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

No, because I don't think they play well off each other. I mean, when you have a Brunson, you need a Josh Hart, you know what I mean? Like they're an OG that doesn't need the ball to score. Like, OG isn't demanding the ball yet. He averaged 21 a game in the series and I think with Luka, he just takes away opportunities. The downside to ball centric high usage players is that in a way it plays to Brunson's favor that they don't really have another natural score. I mean, I guess Cat is, but they don't really. You find very rarely. Like the warriors were very unique where they had two absolutely natural scores and then they had a catch and shoot guy in clay. But I think Brunson and Luka weren't built to play together. Like, I don't think James Harden and Donovan Mitchell are necessarily built to play together. They're so gifted, they can win a bunch of games. Luka and Brunson are so good they could have a winning record. But ideally, most championship teams, there are pieces and elements to them that they fit. They're collaborative, it works together. That's really what we have in the NBA now, collaboration, champions, not individual superstar.

[J. Mack]

Final question, Colin. More likely to get to the finals next year, in your opinion? Not win it, just get to the finals. Knicks out of the east or spurs out of the West? Spurs.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

That's a good question. I think it's. I think it's similar. I think they should be favored, but OKC will come roaring back.

[J. Mack]

You sure?

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

Yeah, because, I mean, J Dub was hurt, Holmgren was overwhelmed. The question with them is do they keep Hartenstein or they let him go and use draft picks to move up and get Mara?

[J. Mack]

It's weird. I just don't think they're a good matchup for the Spurs. They don't match up well with the Spurs. The Knicks are a great matchup for the spurs, as we saw.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

Oh, no, that. I believe we said this before. This year OKC was a better matchup against the Knicks. I mean, the great youthfulness of San Antonio was clearly just in the first game. In the fourth quarter. You're like, well, remember after the first game I came on the air and I said, if you're going to beat the Knicks, San Antonio, you cannot be tied in the fourth. You have got to have leads. And I also think Dylan Harper will develop an outside shot. Like they too often their guards pass up good mid range jumpers like Castle and Harper should actually settle for more 18 footers and threes. I think they drive the basket too often. I think you lose track of how good defensively the Knicks are with OG Robinson cat size and Josh Hart plays way bigger than six' five. Way bigger. J Mac with the News.

[Colin Cowherd]

Well that's the news and thanks for

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

stopping by the Herd Lie News

[J. Mack]

all

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

right, Live in Chicago, it's the Herd. Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd weekdays at noon Eastern, 9am Pacific service opens doors and at the American Military University, it can open doors for the whole family. If you have a loved one who served in the military, you may qualify for reduced tuition. AMU offers flexible online programs designed to fit your schedule so you can keep moving forward wherever life takes you. Learn more at AMU Apus Edu Military Open doors to the future future for you and your family with the help of American Military University.

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[Fox Sports Radio Host]

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[Fox Sports Radio Host]

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[Brian Scalabrine]

He's not going to turn into Kareem Abdul Jabbar. No. But you remember the we believe warriors beat Dirk Davitzki who won the MVP that year. Like, Dirk was really good, but he was guardable. And then he came back and when they beat Miami in the finals, he was unguardable. No one could guard. He just went through the entire roster. So I do think like with Wimby and his mindset and his. He's only in his third year. He hasn't even made it to the playoffs before this year. He hasn't even finished a complete season. I guess his rookie year he did. So it's like there's, there's a lot to grow with a guy like Wimby.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

The other thing we talked about is that what makes the Knicks really special is how good they've been. You noted this. We did in the fourth quarter. The Celtics are not this good in the fourth because Jaylen Brown's not that efficient of a player. So what really makes the Knicks fascinating, their best quarter easily is the fourth. They're not a great first quarter team, they're a great fourth quarter team. And that's something we've always looked at with the Celtics. And in fairness, this is not a shot at Tatum, but he can be passive. I mean, they moved off Marcus smart because Marcus was taking shots from him. And now there's rumors they would move off a really good player, Jalen Brown, because they're not. He's taking shots from him. Nobody doubts who's taking the shot with the Knicks. Like it is Brunson's offense. So here, here is. I also think smart teams and smart people in life adjust. Scalabrini talked about this. New York did it multiple times throughout the series.

[Brian Scalabrine]

When you play a certain style and the coach coaches a certain way, you know, I would just like to see, like with the Knicks, things weren't going well one way. They just adapted to a different way. Finding a guy that's going to make a play. And that play doesn't have to be a three, it doesn't have to be a layup. It could be A driving kick and you know, two or three times or coming up with a big defensive stop or taking a charge. Those are in the, in the finals where the margins are tight or even in the Eastern Conference finals where the margins are tight. You know, those little plays make a big difference.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

Yeah, no, I think it's a good point. So we can put it up again. You after the warriors dynasty, we've gone. I mean really, this is what Adam Silver was seeking. A Canadian team. The Raptors. Big brand Lakers. Small market Milwaukee. Old Steph wins one. Here come the Nuggets. Big brand Celtics. Small market Oklahoma city. And a 53 year drought ends with New York. I mean we have seen, you know, J. Mac, you and I. I don't read a lot of stuff on the Internet. Like I try to stay off it as much as I can. If I have more than two and a half hours a day on it, it's like, okay, get a life. For years. And NBA is rigged. I got news for you folks. They would not have picked the Raptors, the Bucks, Denver, Okc. If it's rigged, why did they wait 53 years for the Knicks? You see the city erupt. Is that you know that this has always been the league that has struggled with officiating. I would argue that. And this is what I think Tim Legler had said this, that there were moments in this series I thought the games were under officiated. It was so physical in the first quarter of game one you're like, guys, nobody's going to last. Like this is brutal for all the it's rigged crowd. And they're all zeros. But eight years, eight titles, small market, big market, none of them predictable. Even the warriors championship, you remember this, they were trailing in the series, they go to Boston. And we thought it was over. Like it was a bad matchup. And then you're like Andrew Wiggins, remember that delivers. And you're like they're going to steal this thing from the favored Celtics.

[J. Mack]

Yeah. If you've typed on the Internet this NBA's rigged, just go outside and touch grass. Let the sun hit your face. Just relax. Cullen, I want to ask you about Jalen Brunson because I'm getting in arguments with people online. Yes, I'm a moron. This whole stuff. So SGA had game seven at home against the Spurs. He had four points in the fourth quarter. Could not do it. Okay. He's a two time mvp. The media loves him. Jalen Brunson on the road, Game 5 has a 10 nothing run by himself.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

To give him the lead with Wemby on the floor. The best defensive player ever.

[J. Mack]

Yeah, he had 15 points in the fourth quarter in a closeout game. Finished with 45. Michael Jordan was the last guy to do that. Why does the media continue to bullwash sga? He's the greatest two time mvp. He's not. He's just on a really good team. Jalen Brunson, to me, if you ask me now, J Mac, who you want in a playoff series, Brunson or sga? It's Brunson. Colin. He's just way more clutch. I don't know, maybe I'm going crazy here, but you watch Brunson against the spurs. Did everything SGA could.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

Not if you gave me the next 10 years. Oh, well. Cade Cunningham and Brunson. I would take Cade because he's a bigger, stronger athlete. If you're asking me right now. 30 seconds left, game seven of a finals. Cade, Cunningham and Brunson. I would take Brunson 100%. I've said this about MJ and LeBron. Say what you want about LeBron's career. If you're giving me 30 seconds in the ball, I'm taking MJ. Like in. Brunson has got that sort of stroke and that confidence and that repertoire of isolation moves. He is a great confident closer. And the other thing is he's smart.

[J. Mack]

He's just a smart, tough player. Man makes all the right plays. He's diminutive, gets in the lane. I just don't know why people don't love him more like he. I don't know if. Look, Colin, I don't think he's had an MVP vote. Your guy just sent me. One of your producers sent me a text. Last two years, Jalen Brunson has one dunk. The NBA glamorizes some goofy stuff.

[Fox Sports Radio Host]

Well, I also think we are seeing a historic run by Brunson. He is Russell Wilson, right? He's Russell Wilson. He goes and wins in college. Doesn't go in the first round. He's a little undersized. His style. LeBron this weekend was talking about his style. He's like, he's so herky jerky. It's hard to time him. He's hard to defend. He's really different. That was very much Steve Nash, you know, and. And never gets hurt. Totally durable team leader and. And the country never quite embraced Russell Wilson and they struggle with Brunson. I think Brunson's loved by the smart people. Like, I think New York loves him and basketball people love him.

[Colin Cowherd]

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[Fox Sports Radio Host]

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[Colin Cowherd]

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