THE HERD – HOUR 3 – USA Soccer Needs More Grit

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Herd with Colin Cowherd — Hour 3, "USA Soccer Needs More Grit"

Date: July 8, 2026
Host: Jason McIntyre (filling in for Colin Cowherd)
Guests: Derek Rae (Fox Sports announcer), Paul Tenorio (The Athletic), Rachel Nichols (news segment)

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Episode Overview

This episode, hosted by Jason McIntyre, focuses on dramatic storylines from the FIFA World Cup, particularly Argentina’s historic comeback driven by Lionel Messi, and a critical examination of the US Men’s National Soccer Team’s exit. The conversation delves into the qualities of champions—grit, passion, and leadership—and contrasts them with the perceived shortcomings of the US squad. Legendary commentator Derek Rae joins to recap Messi’s iconic performance, while journalist Paul Tenorio explores systemic issues facing US soccer. Regular contributor Rachel Nichols discusses rising sports stories, and the panel reflects on greatness across the current sporting landscape.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Messi & Argentina’s Historic Comeback

(Segment Start: 03:15)

• Jason McIntyre marvels at Lionel Messi’s latest feat: leading Argentina, down 2-0 late against Egypt, to an improbable comeback in the World Cup knockout stages at age 39.
• Compares Messi’s “old man renaissance” to other aging legends (Brady, LeBron, Matt Stafford), praising his longevity, technical mastery, and the emotional weight of the moment.
• Plays audio of Derek Rae’s broadcasting of the comeback goal:
  • Derek Rae (04:58):
    “And who else? Lionel Messi, the savior for Argentina. A comeback when they needed it, engineered by the man regarded by so many as the greatest of them all. From the depths of despair, Argentina celebrate.”
• Brad Friedel adds insight on Messi’s unique explosive ability, even late in his career:
  • Brad Friedel (07:29):
    “He gets up to full pace in about a step and a half to two steps. It’s just remarkable, this guy, and he’s a leader and he’s humble and he’s a driven winner.”

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2. US Men’s National Team: Lacking Grit

(Segment Start: 07:58)

• The US team’s 4-1 loss to Belgium is called “gutless” by Jason; he’s less upset by the result than by the lack of resilience and heart compared to Mexico or Argentina.
• Critiques recurring lazy commentary blaming lack of elite American athletes for soccer’s limitations; instead says it’s about fighting spirit.
• Jason McIntyre (10:13):
  “That’s really the thing I didn’t see from the Americans that pissed me off. …We didn’t meet the moment, as they say in sports.”
• Plays Landon Donovan’s critical remarks about Christian Pulisic:
  • Landon Donovan (11:18):
    “...you would have had to drag me off the field, and I would have punched the doctor in the face and said, you’re not taking me off the field. Put whatever you need to put in me, and I’m staying on the field.”
• Sets up an interview with Derek Rae for deeper perspective.

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3. Interview: Derek Rae—On Messi, Argentina, & the Essence of Comebacks

(Segment Start: 16:39)

• Rae describes calling Argentina vs Egypt as a career highlight, possibly the greatest comeback he’s ever witnessed in World Cup play:
  • Derek Rae (17:42):
    “As a commentator, you go into every game hoping that you have material like that. And I’m still, I think, trying to process and digest it.... That is pretty much at the top of the list, I think.”
• Discusses the controversial VAR reversal on Egypt's second goal, agreeing it was “stringent,” but wanting the focus on Argentina’s determination and Messi’s impact.
• Stresses Messi’s unique ability to inspire belief and performance in his teammates, echoing iconic sporting comebacks (e.g., Liverpool vs Milan, 2005 Champions League).
  • Derek Rae (20:30):
    “I do not think that sort of comeback could have been made minus Lionel Messi. This was the Messi comeback... the influence he has on his teammates... in 20, 30, 40 years’ time, people will tell their grandchildren: remember that Lionel Messi inspired comeback against Egypt.”
• On the US team’s lack of grit, Rae suggests a generational shift—a technically improved team, but perhaps missing the edge and spirit the US teams showed 15–20 years ago. Urges fans not to expect linear progress:
  • Derek Rae (23:10):
    “I think that with this new generation [the US] are better technically, maybe better tactically, but they don’t quite have that same kind of ‘we are going to take it to the limit’... Sometimes, you go up, down, up, down... Most countries never win the World Cup.”
• Analyzes other World Cup contenders:
  • France vs Spain (France more dynamic, Spain more controlling)
  • England’s likability and matchup prospects vs Norway, potential meeting with Argentina.
  • “Argentina don’t have a lot of pace... They rely on Messi, but they rely on these little combinations and these bursts. It could be a very even contest.”

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4. Panel News: NFL, Otani, and the Golden Era of Sports

(Segment Start: 30:12, Rachel Nichols)

• Discusses NFL quarterback battles (Shaduer Sanders in Cleveland, Ty Simpson with the Rams), the modern athlete-media relationship, and social media’s influence.
• Shohei Ohtani’s 300th MLB home run prompts a debate: Is he the greatest baseball player ever?
  • Rachel Nichols provides context, comparing Ohtani to Babe Ruth, but notes differences in competition and opportunities.
  • Rachel Nichols (37:34):
    “A lot of the opponents [Ruth] faced were not full time baseball players... now Ohtani puts up similar numbers, facing elite opposition all the time. Best baseball player of all time.”
• Jason McIntyre leans into the idea that we’re witnessing a “golden era” with the greatest living stars in multiple sports: Messi, Ohtani, and (potentially) LeBron.

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5. Interview: Paul Tenorio on US Soccer, Mentality, and The Messi Effect

(Segment Start: 41:57)

• Paul Tenorio, author of "The Messi Effect," discusses the duality seen at this World Cup: Messi’s relentless spirit contrasted with the US team’s apparent nerves and lack of fight.
  • “It really felt like the moment was too big for this team... Belgium was united around a cause. The US was left grasping at a team that was playing faster, thinking faster, playing harder.”
• On Christian Pulisic:
  • “He gave the ball away 11 times in the first 45 minutes, more than any other player on the field... it felt like he was trying to do too much.”
• Explains that Belgium was actively motivated by the controversy over US team selection (Balogun’s return, political intrigue), using it as motivation to prove themselves.
• On what needs to change for US soccer:
  • More accountability and improvement at the MLS/pro club level to better prepare young players.
  • The US can’t lose the traditional “fight” and mentality, even as technical and tactical standards rise.
  • Recruiting dual nationals will remain vital, but building a stronger domestic soccer culture is the long-term solution.
  • “We have to start holding Major League Soccer accountable, to change, to grow faster, to be more aggressive.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Derek Rae on Messi’s iconic comeback:
  “From the depths of despair, Argentina celebrate.” (04:58, 16:54)
• Jason McIntyre on the US team:
  “That’s the thing I didn’t see from the Americans that pissed me off... We didn’t meet the moment.” (10:13)
• Landon Donovan on Pulisic & US mentality:
  “You would have had to drag me off the field, and I would have punched the doctor in the face... I’m staying on the field.” (11:18)
• Paul Tenorio on what makes the difference:
  “There has to be an understanding that you still have to have the mentality American soccer has always had... you cannot lose the fight that wasn’t there against Belgium.” (48:17)
• Rachel Nichols on Babe Ruth vs Ohtani:
  “Most of [Ruth’s] opponents were not full time baseball players... Ohtani puts up similar numbers, facing elite opposition all the time.” (37:34)
• Jason McIntyre on today’s sports landscape:
  “What a time to be alive—when all three of them are excelling.” (35:05)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• (03:15) — Start of World Cup/Messi segment
• (04:58) — Derek Rae’s on-air call of Messi’s equalizer
• (07:29) — Brad Friedel on Messi’s physical edge
• (10:13) — Jason’s critique: US lacking grit
• (11:18) — Landon Donovan’s tough comments on Pulisic
• (16:39) — Derek Rae interview begins (Argentina-Egypt comeback analysis)
• (23:10) — Rae on US team’s lost mentality
• (25:25) — Breakdown of World Cup contenders (France-France-Spain-England-Norway)
• (30:12) — Rachel Nichols’ news desk: NFL and Ohtani
• (37:34) — Rachel on context for Ohtani vs Ruth
• (41:57) — Paul Tenorio interview: Messi, US soccer, underlying issues
• (45:15) — In-depth critique of Pulisic’s performance
• (48:17) — Tenorio on what needs structural change for US soccer

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Takeaways

• Lionel Messi continues to redefine what’s possible for aging athletes, demonstrating leadership and competitive drive on an epic scale.
• The episode underscores the intangible traits—grit, leadership, belief—that separate champions from pretenders, using both Argentina’s triumph and the US’s shortcomings as dual case studies.
• Systemic improvement for the US in soccer will require robust professionalization and cultural shifts within domestic leagues, as well as a recommitment to the mentality that once defined American teams.
• The sporting world is experiencing a convergence of greatness across multiple disciplines, as evidenced by Messi, Ohtani, and (to some) LeBron simultaneously dominating their sports.

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For listeners, this episode offers a passionate, multifaceted exploration of soccer, elite sports mentality, and the broader context of athletic greatness—blending technical insight, storytelling, and candid critique.

Transcript

[Jason McIntyre]

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[Podcast Announcer/Commercial Voice]

Thanks for listening to the Herd podcast. Be sure to catch us live every weekday on Fox Sports Radio and noon to 3 Eastern, 9am to noon Pacific. Find your local station for the [e-mail] or stream us live every day on the iHeartRadio app by searching Fox Sports Radio or FSR. Thanks for listening to the Herd podcast.

[Jason McIntyre]

Here we go, back on the Herd final hour here on a Wednesday. Jason McIntyre in for Colin Cowherd. Doing a lot of work. World cup chatter today, folks. Oh, man, what a glorious tournament this has been. And in 15 minutes, a special guest, Derek Ray. Yes, the legendary Fox announcer. He called Messi's goal and Argentina's comeback win over Egypt. Cannot wait to talk to him as a soccer guy. I've been listening to Derek Ray forever. He is extraordinary on the mic. Just the turns of phrase he uses. So good. Cannot wait to talk to him in 15 minutes. And let's just start right here with the World cup, folks. And it has been an amazing run. The US had an outstanding run. But how about Lionel Messi in Argentina? They're trying to go back to back. Messi putting Argentina on his back and at 39 years old, he's still playing with as much grit and passion as ever. They're calling this the greatest comeback in World cup history because no team had ever rallied from down to this late in a game to win in regulation. And Messi did that with an assist and then a goal. And listen, I'm consuming all of the content, of course, Instagram, there's all these edits of Messi. You know, Messi gets sad, his PK is denied, then he narrowly misses a free K, free kick. And then Messi just puts the team on his back, goes, as they like to say, God mode, you know, and Argentina wins it. And then he's crying on the pitch after the game, folks. I've watched this replay a billion times and here's Derek Ray on the call to get fired up. Messi's goal to tie it.

[Derek Ray]

Lionel Messi deflection there on the way through. And can they line something up here, Argentina? Oh, it's gone in. It's two, two. And who else? Lionel Messi, the savior for Argentina. A comeback when they needed it, engineered by the man regarded by so many as the greatest of them all. From the depths of despair, Argentina celebrate.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah, I mean, honestly, I, I'm obsessed with The World Cup. You guys know, soccer was my top sport growing up. I was a pretty good player. My family had some pretty good players back. Back in the day. I'll just say that. And the World cup is something like we never see. That's what every four years. It's incredible. And Messi's kind of leading Argentina on this old man renaissance. I'm sure you guys have seen this in sports. Messi's 39 years old, okay? And he's carrying Argentina. He's one of the best players on the pitch at the World Cup. At 39, I was told for the longest time growing up, yep, sports are a young man's game. Yet here's Tom Brady at 44, winning a Super Bowl. Here's Matt Stafford at 38, winning the MVP last year. Here's LeBron at 41, shattering every NBA record that matters because he's still playing at such a high level. Folks, we've never seen this stuff before. I remember in 2022, it was December, Messi was 35, and Argentina plays that epic World cup final against France. And folks, Messi had two goals in that game. They win in penalty kicks. And at the end, they carry Messi off the field. They're throwing him in the air. He's got the World cup trophy. And we're saying, this is. This is John Elway times 10. Remember, Elway wins the super bowl and walks off into the sunset. He's done. And everybody thought Messi was. It's over. You. You go out like that with a World cup at 35, the last award he needed to cinch himself as the goat. And Here he is four years later at 39, doing otherworldly things. I'm personally, as a guy who's aging, hopefully gracefully, I. I love this old man renaissance. I mean, Messi is bending free kicks. He's still just such a sharp player at this age. He is starting this new thing that he's been doing for a while now where he just walks a lot to conserve energy. Walks and walks. And then at a moment, boom, he pops. Here's Brad Friedel talking about Messi and this, this God mode that he could go into and take over games.

[Brad Friedel]

This guy, Lionel Messi, we talk about him all the time. I mean, being down 2 nil again, 78th minute, he blew by a guy at his age. I mean, he get. I asked stat sports once. There they were. I was around them, and they were at Barcelona. I said, what's he got? I know he's great in the skill and all that. What's he got? And they said he gets up to full pace in about a step and a half to two steps. I mean, it's just, it's remarkable, this guy, and he's a leader and he's humble and he's a driven winner.

[Jason McIntyre]

Let's go from Lionel Messi, the greatest to ever do it. And Argentina, the defending champs to Team usa, which fell flat on its face Monday, losing to Belgium 4 1. It's not embarrassing or bad that we lost to Belgium, guys. That's not the problem. The problem is how we lost. It was a gutless effort. I mean, we saw no grit, no heart. You know, you get punched in the mouth, you fall behind early, and you don't rally at all. Guys, it was embarrassing. It really hurts. And frankly, we look so good. Our starters did in the three games. We gave up one goal to Paraguay, Australia, Bosnia, like, listen, Paraguay is nothing to scoff at. They showed well after we kicked our butts, right? Knocked out Germany were kind of nip and tuck with France, even though, you know, France had that game in control. One nothing. That's not bad. And where was our grit? Why didn't we see any of that? That's what really hurts. And you've got all these columnists and these talking heads parachuting into soccer, right? And they're doing their think pieces and their crisis management. Oh, my gosh. We're never going to be on the level of the greats. And it's the same nonsense every four years. Well, you know, if we could only get the best players in America to play soccer, the best athletes. Imagine if the NBA. And it's the same dumb, lazy nonsense. I'm really sick of it. As a soccer guy myself, I, I, I think it's just lazy. And, and here's the reality. We watched a Mexico team, right? Mexico's been down bad. We've been better than Mexico for, for a close to a decade now, okay? We watched Mexico fall behind two nothing to England, Jude Bellingham, back to back goals like, oh, wow, it's over. Mexican fought like hell. They refused to die. They came back. That was a game until the end. They lose. 3, 2. Nobody in Mexico is disappointed that they lost, how they lost. Obviously you want to win the game, but they fought like hell. They were excellent. You know, there was grit there. We just watched Argentina yesterday. Down two nothing, 78 minutes. Oh my gosh, it's over. Heart of a frigging champion. Messi put the team on his back. Erling Haaland, Norway against Brazil. 00.

[Podcast Announcer/Commercial Voice]

Oh, well, I don't know.

[Jason McIntyre]

Brazil's got so much talent. Haaland just says, I'll take this, thanks. Bang, bang, two goals, it's over. And that's really the thing I didn't see from the Americans that pissed me off on Monday. You know, you fall behind one, nothing. Our whole team seems rattled at the back. We didn't meet the moment, as they say in sports. You know, there was a bit of a distraction if you maybe heard about it in the 48 hours leading up. I don't know if that was a factor, but, I mean, Tim Ream was victimized on four straight goals. You know, listen, I don't want to say I was right on Ream, but I told you guys for months leading up on this show at Tim Ream, that's a concern of mine. Then he shows well against Paraguay. I said, hey, Tim, Tim showed up. You know, he's solid against Bosnia. Well, you know, you step up in class against Belgium and you get worked. So here is Landon Donovan going after our star. I've been reluctant to go after Pulisic, yet here's Landon Donovan. And listen, this is critical, and this is the treatment we give American stars. And, you know, soccer's arrived in this country. When Landon Donovan's dropping bombs like this on Pulisic, he is who he is

[Landon Donovan]

at this point, right? And we want him to be more because we see the talent. I've been on here talking about seeing him in person against Bosnia. I'm like, the way he moves and the way. But that was an easy game. He came out of a World cup knockout game at home with his leg still intact. Because I'm saying this to you, Tim, and you know it, because you played with me, you would have had to drag me off the field, and I would have punched the doctor in the face and said, you're not taking me off the field. Put whatever you need to put in me, and I'm staying on the field.

[Jason McIntyre]

He's not wrong, folks. Landon Donovan pulling no punches on Christian Pulisic. All right, coming up next, a super special guest, Derek Ray, one of the great announcers in the sport. He called the amazing, historic Argentina comeback against Egypt. He's seen Messi up close and personal. I cannot wait to talk to Derek Ray next year.

[Jason McIntyre (continuation) / Herd Line News Host]

Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd, weekdays at noon Eastern, 9am Pacific, on Fox Sports Radio. FS1 and the

[Jason McIntyre]

hey, this is Jason McIntyre. Join me every weekday morning on my podcast, Straight fire with Jason McIntyre. This isn't your typical sports pod, pushing the same tired narratives down your throat every day. Straight Fire gives you honest opinions on all the biggest sports headlines, accurate stats to help you win big at the sportsbook and all the best guess. Do yourself a favor and listen to Straight fire with Jason McIntyre on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Jason McIntyre]

better than Derek Ray. He was on the call yesterday for Argentina, Egypt. Just take this in, listen to it and then we'll talk to Derek Ray. Here he is calling the final two goals for Argentina during the comeback.

[Jason McIntyre (continuation) / Herd Line News Host]

Lionel Messi.

[Derek Ray]

Deflection there on the way through. And can they line something up here? Argentina oh, it's gone in. It's two. Two and who else? Lonel Messi, Lautaro Martinez. Sending it over. Enzo Fernandez. Can you believe this? In the biggest of moments, in the biggest of stages, in one of the biggest comebacks, it is the game of the tournament.

[Jason McIntyre]

Derek Ray, just an absolute legend. Derek, so happy to have you. Thank you so much for joining us. Announcer for FOX Sports. First of all, what's the comedown like the day after? Argentina, Egypt. How you feeling today, man?

[Jason McIntyre (continuation) / Herd Line News Host]

Not quite sure where I am, Jason, to be honest. It's been a crazy 24 hours and as a commentator, you go into every game hoping that you have material like that. You really can't top that sort of material. And I'm still, I think, trying to process and digest it. And we have this habit of always wanting to compare and contrast with other great moments that we've been lucky enough to experience. But in World cup terms, and I've worked professionally at every World cup since 1990, that is pretty much at the top of the list, I think.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah, they're Calling it one of the greatest comebacks ever, the latest comeback down from two goals to win in regulation. And you called it all. I am curious to rewind a little bit to the, to the questionable VAR call and listening to you on the broadcast, I largely agreed. But to anybody who missed that, you know, there was a questionable foul and then about 100 yards later, Egypt goes up to nothing and they, they run it back. Just keep talk me through your, your thoughts calling that.

[Jason McIntyre (continuation) / Herd Line News Host]

Well, the other voice that you heard was that of Rob Green, former England goalkeeper, who has been my terrific co commentator throughout this World Cup. And Rob immediately jumped on it and I tended to agree with, thought that it was too far away. It was not really immediately impacting the goal that had been scored by the Egyptians. And I think what he said on the air was, what are we doing here? You know, what are we doing with Var here? We all understand why we have var. The reason is, of course, to make sure that we don't have egregious mistakes that mean goals are scored when they shouldn't be scored. But, you know, that was a foul, maybe a borderline foul that had nothing really to do with the actual scoring of the goal because there was so much that had to be accomplished before the ball went into the net. And what I would say about it is it's sort of at odds with what I would call the lighter touch VAR that we've seen during this World Cup. Pierluigi Collina, who looks after refereeing matters, has spoken about that and this seemed a little bit too stringent, but the decision was made. Egypt were still 2 nil in front with 11 minutes to go and Argentina had the wherewithal to come back. So I think it's right that we do dwell on it, but we shouldn't dwell on it more than when we talk about the actual nature of the comeback, which was a comeback for the ages.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah, I'm just wondering, like, as a fan watching, I'm like, oh, my gosh, Argentina's down to nothing. It's over. They're not, they're not advancing. Messi's done, it's over. The career finished. Like, as an announcer, when you're watching this, did you think at all, man? I didn't see anything from Argentina, Derek, that hinted at a comeback, but they do have Messi and the killer instinct.

[Jason McIntyre (continuation) / Herd Line News Host]

Yeah, you've summed it up really well there, I think, in commentary. And you never quite know what you've said at the time, but I think at one point with maybe about 15 minutes to go. I said something like, are we witnessing the last tango? You know, because that was what came into my head, talking about Argentina and Messi in particular. Was that going to be the last Messi tango at the World Cup? And he's given us so many memories down the years, you know, a once in a lifetime footballer. But you still have the feeling that if one goal went in that it could change the course of events. And this is what actually reminded me of another classic game that I was fortunate enough to cover more than 20 years ago. Milan against Liverpool and Istanbul champions league final 2005 when Milan were 30 in front. Liverpool looked as though they were out of it completely, but somehow came back from 30 to make it 33 went to penalties and Liverpool. And that was weirdly in my head. When Romero scored the goal for two one, I thought, okay, all right, let's see. And I would say that. And we talk a lot about Messi and some people say we talk too much about Messi. But I do not think that sort of comeback could have been made minus Lionel Messi. This was the Messi comeback. And it's not just what he does individually as a footballer. It's the influence he has on his teammates and the regard, the esteem in which he is held within the Argentina Tina side. And of course he had a big part to play in all of it. You know, the goal there for two, two especially. But yeah, I think this is one that I'm pretty confident in saying in 20, 30, 40 years time, people will tell their grandchildren. Yeah, remember that, that Lionel Messi inspired comeback against Egypt. It's right up there, right at the top of the tree with World cup stories.

[Rachel Nichols]

So.

[Jason McIntyre]

So Derek, I want to talk about the US team real quick. You know, listen, it's a tough, it's a bit of a tough sell here. Oh, the U.S. every, every world cup, we're supposed to be better. We never really break through. But something I saw is in that Argentina comeback, I saw grit. I saw we're not going to quit. And Mexico was down to nothing to England, they didn't quit. They rallied hard. Belgium was down to nothing to Senegal, they did not throw in the towel. They rallied hard. I didn't see a rally from the US against Belgium. I saw a team that kind of rolled over and was like, we, it's over. And I just wonder, you watched a lot of soccer, is that something that can be coached into the team? Because just the slump shoulders. The USA falls behind early and they never really mounted a Rally.

[Jason McIntyre (continuation) / Herd Line News Host]

Yeah, just an observation. As an outsider, I actually think the USA used to have grit in spades. I used to believe that they weren't the most technically gifted side. I'm talking about, you know, 15, 20 years ago, you know, going back to Bruce arena and Bob Bradley, and there were some good individuals, but my goodness, there was grit, there was gumption, there was belief. And I think that with this new generation, it's gone in a slightly different direction. They are better technically, no doubt, and maybe they're better tactically in some areas, but they don't quite have that same kind of. We are going to take it to the limit to try to win every game now at the same time, I think sometimes, again, this is just an observation. When I listen to USA fans, I think they believe that there's this sort of path that you go on and you get better and better and better, and then eventually you win the World Cup. I've been around long enough to see that for just about every country, it doesn't go like that. It goes up, down, up, down, up, down. Even for the great football companies, look at Brazil and this World Cup. They've had a poor World cup by their standards. Germany, the country where I work, you know, they stand for excellence when it comes to international football, but they're going through a bad patch. So all I would say is, you know, don't get too down about it and think that because it didn't happen this time against Belgium, that there can't be strides taken in the future. I just think this is the nature of international football. Most countries have been trying to win the World cup forever and have never managed it. It's a very select group that's actually been able to break through. And to be honest, it's part of the fun of it. I mean, I come from a very small country, Scot never made it out of a group stage in a major international tournament. We hold the ignominious record for that. So you live and die with your team and yes, you want to get better, but I think you also have to be a bit realistic and say, okay, round of 16 was that par for the course for this USA team? It's sort of what was the par for my course anyway. I thought round of 16 that would be anything better is a bonus. Anything below that would be a disappointment. That's how it ended.

[Jason McIntyre]

So, interestingly, to pivot to the macro view of the World cup in the quarterfinals, France is the new favorite. They have been for a couple rounds, but coming into the World Cup, Spain was viewed largely as the favorite, the team to beat the betting markets. I'm just curious, why do you think that has changed? Just because of the offense that France has? I mean, the unbelievable midfield and forwards, but Spain hasn't even conceded a goal yet. Derek?

[Jason McIntyre (continuation) / Herd Line News Host]

Yeah, it's funny you say that, because I was asked, as most of us were before the tournament, who would win the World cup, and I said Spain and France, in that order, but not much between them. And I was well aware that they were potentially on a collision course in the semifinal. And that remains the case. I think it is that. I think France have been a bit more spectacular. I commentated on one of the Spain games and they're very good at what they do, but they sometimes can sort of take the oxygen out of a game a little bit. You know, it's very much. While they have changed slightly, it's still very much dependent on the passing game. And the opposition don't often get much of a look in. France have a bit more flair about how they do it, with flair. Players such as, of course, Gary and Mbappe and Michael Orisse and Dembele and the list goes on, but I think there's not an awful lot between them. And were they to meet as looks likely in the semifinal, then I think that we're talking about a whisker between them and potentially going all the way, maybe going to penalties in a meeting like that.

[Jason McIntyre]

Let me ask about England. With the US eliminated, I've backed England. Now that's a team I'm rooting for. It's tough not to love this team, Derek. Between Bellingham, Harry Kane, they're very likable and going into Mexico and getting that win in a hostile environment. I'm just curious. They now face Erling, Holland and Norway, which, I mean, hell, you talk about teams that haven't done anything. Norway hadn't done anything. I mean, they couldn't qualify. I'm just curious your thoughts on that game, how that shakes out. England versus Norway.

[Jason McIntyre (continuation) / Herd Line News Host]

I make England slight favorites. I think it will be a test against Norway because what we've seen is, yes, there's Erling Haaland, but there are other players in their ranks who can damage anybody. I'm a huge Harry Kane fan because I see him every week working in Germany. And not just Harry Kane the striker or even the human being because he's a great guy, but also the complete footballer and the strings he has to his bow these days as almost a playmaker as well as a goal scorer. And it's natural to focus on Jude Bellingham as well. Like to give Thomas Tuchel some of the credit for it because he came in for a bit of criticism for a squad selection at the start. But I think England, I agree. I think previous incarnations of England were not as easy to like. I think that this is a good bunch that they have together, and as I said, I make them favorites against Norway. And then again, who knows, would they play Argentina in a monumental semifinal? Switzerland would have their own say on that. But it's shaping up quite nicely for England after that scare that they got against Dr. Congo.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah, it's interesting, the Argentina matchup. I was doing some X's and O's. It's almost like England's going to have a very good chance against Argentina. I don't know, Derek. People are getting caught up in the messy stuff. Understandably. They haven't been particularly sharp in this World Cup. I think you alluded to that. I don't know what it is, but maybe it's just a lot of watching Messi and saying, oh, Lionel will take over. But I think England could win that game. What do you think?

[Jason McIntyre (continuation) / Herd Line News Host]

Well, I think they have a real chance. If it does come to that, I think England, Argentina, Norway, it could be any which way. Switzerland as well, overlook them because they can be a little bit dull. But they've, you know, discovered the winning habit. I think if it were to be England against Argentina, what I think is dangerous about Argentina is that, yes, at times it's a bit underwhelming because they don't have a lot of pace in their team. They're quite a technical team. They rely on Messi, but they rely on these little combinations and these bursts within a game. And I think we saw that quite a lot in Qatar as well. And the nucleus of that team is still in place. So Argentina against England. Yeah, I mean, it would would be a semifinal to relish, no doubt about it. I'm not sure that I would go into it thinking this team has the advantage over the other. I would think it could be a very even contest. But let's see if they meet.

[Jason McIntyre]

All right, Derek Ray Fox SPORTS ANNOUNCER True legend. Derek, it was an honor to talk to you, man. I love listening to your stuff. Keep up the good work, my man.

[Jason McIntyre (continuation) / Herd Line News Host]

Thank you, my friend, and the pleasure is all mine.

[Jason McIntyre]

All right, Derek RAY FOX SPORTS ANNOUNCER all right, let's go to Rachel Nichols with the news. No, no, no, turn on the news.

[Jason McIntyre (continuation) / Herd Line News Host]

This is the Herd Line news.

[Rachel Nichols]

Well, Jason, you've heard of Shador Sanders. I'm familiar with his work media attention last year. Well, he is definitely making some noise again. Browns have not named a week one starter, so Shedeur will battle desean Watson in camp. And Jason, he's talking about it on his YouTube channel, saying even becoming the Brown starter, if that does happen, it's small potatoes compared to his other career goals.

[Jason McIntyre]

I'm not content and just being on no team, you feel me? Like I'm trying to get right. I'm trying to be one of the greatest. You gotta be thankful. But no, it's still more. Yeah, still. It's still more.

[Rachel Nichols]

You like the confidence, Jason, or that he wants to be an all time great, or do you feel like this is unnecessarily putting another target on his back?

[Jason McIntyre]

I like the multimedia play, Rachel. He's like Jaylen Brown going on twitch saying, pop it off, off. So now Shador, it just has his own YouTube channel where he's now producing content.

[Rachel Nichols]

These guys are for a while, yeah.

[Jason McIntyre]

The modern athletes, they, they know. Why would I give an interview where my words could get twisted? I can just go sit on a rock and get interviewed and say, I want to be the greatest. You know, I mean, maybe the greatest quarterback in the Cleveland Browns quarterback room would be a start. I'm not going to bash the kid. You know, whatever. I didn't see it last year. Year, we'll see. I didn't see upgrades at wide receiver for this team. DeSean Watson, you know, he's, he, he ain't just rolling over and conceding this job. So I, I don't know what to make of Shador. Yeah, I don't know.

[Rachel Nichols]

I mean, I said to one of our producers this morning, I never having a problem with an athlete saying, I think I can be the best or I want to be the best. That is how you have to think to compete at this level. It's just whether those are inside thoughts or outside thoughts. And I don't know what's better for Shador. I mean, the people who love him love this kind of stuff from him. And maybe it's just part of what makes him go. As we've seen athletes who need to talk like this to be their best,

[Jason McIntyre]

they gotta hype themselves up. Don't you do that before the show. Walking in the room, I'm like, all right, J. Mac, let's go. You're gonna dominate today.

[Rachel Nichols]

It'll shock you to hear I don't do that, but all right. Sticking in the NFL, we talked about it. At bun stage is the Rams very surprising pick, right at number 13 overall. They took Ty Simpson out of Alabama to be the heir apparent behind Stafford. But reports have indicated that Simpson has yet to separate himself from the other quarterback at camp, Stetson Barnett. And even a former GM has been calling him a career backup in various reportings. So it was reported recently also that Sean McVay wants Simpson to work on his communication in the huddle by looking in a mirror and seeing what his face looks like and how his voice sounds when he's communicating in the huddle. Does all of this make you feel better? Worse. Neutral. I mean, how is it aging this pic?

[Jason McIntyre]

I like that. Looking in the mirror, practicing his huddle close.

[Rachel Nichols]

Do you do that in the morning, too?

[Jason McIntyre]

I do not do that. I've heard it's a motivational ploy, though. You look in the mirror. I'm gonna do well today. Let's make it a day to remember. Speaking of Big vay, when I saw his name on the screen, Rachel.

[Rachel Nichols]

Yeah.

[Jason McIntyre]

I instantly thought, I'm sure you saw it on Instagram. McVeigh vacationing with his wife. And dude is shredded. I don't know what he's on, but, I mean, he's got, like, an eight pack, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, McVay. Maybe he could talk to his quarterback, Ty Simpson, and they'll start working out together. I just. I don't understand the Simpson hype. I'm not gonna lie. I liked him coming out. I just don't see it with the Rams. I don't.

[Rachel Nichols]

Rachel, what did we just discuss? Jason? Instagram. Not a source, but I appreciate.

[Jason McIntyre]

Was the photo doctored list? Dude, he was shredded. Like, I mean, hgh. I don't know what he's on. Maybe Peptides.

[Rachel Nichols]

There you go. This is more your world than mine. I don't know. I do want to get into this with you because I got to talk about baseball here. And Shohei Ohtani, you know how I'm a Dodgers fan, notched another accolade in his career belt last night, swatting the 300th home run of his career. And here is the call from Joe Davis.

[Pharmaceutical Ad Voice]

Really?

[Jason McIntyre]

He's a guy that you. You're just trying to find.

[Derek Ray]

Square up, highline drive, center field, carries over the wall. 300 for Shohei Ohtani, it was a line drive that just kept on rising, kept on climbing. And it's the 300th home run of

[Paul Tenorio]

Shohei Ohtani's major league career.

[Rachel Nichols]

Now look again. I'm a Dodger.

[Podcast Announcer/Commercial Voice]

Gal.

[Rachel Nichols]

So I will tell you that one of those games he played was at the nlcs, was the most godlike game I have ever seen. I would say the best combined performance from a player. We heard a lot during the World Series. We are lucky folks to be living in a time where the best baseball player ever is walking the earth. Are you ready to crown him the best baseball player ever, or do you still need to see how the rest of the career pans out?

[Jason McIntyre]

I mean. No, no, that's a great point. So I would agree. Yeah, best baseball player ever. But, Rachel, so yesterday we saw the best baseball player ever and the best soccer player ever, both perfecting their craft. We have, for my money, the best basketball player ever, a free agent. I mean, that is what a time to be alive when all three of them are excelling. And I mean, I was thinking about this. Okay, so, like, at any point in, say, 1992, we're sports fans. Like, boy, we're so lucky. We've got the greatest basketball player. Jordan, at the time, on our football, baseball, like, that wasn't a thing. Right now is like the golden era in sports in America.

[Rachel Nichols]

Yeah, I mean, I think there's been a real leap in the way athletes take care of themselves. I was asking the guys to make a comparison to Babe Ruth just because that's. The guy obviously, is an icon of baseball, but also, you know, pitcher, hitter, all of that stuff. So I got some numbers for you here, Jason. The numbers favor Ruth a little bit. The big ones, right. That we're talking about. He had a 3, 42 average. Ohtani has a 2, 282 average. And Ohtani's ERA is 2.83 compared to 2.28 ERA from Babe Ruth. But then I decided to dig deeper. Jason, in my research, I did not use Instagram as a source. I did look up what some of the people Babe Ruth was playing against were like. We know that there was segregation. So that's a huge thing right when you're starting there. Also, a lot of the opponents, most of his opponents were not full time baseball players. In fact, two very notable opponents of his. There was one who was a traveling circus director that in the off season, he owned and ran a traveling circus and ran it from his stops playing baseball, even when he was away from the circus itself. But one of Babe Ruth's teammates, pretty good, was nicknamed the Merry Mortician because he was a funeral director the entire time he was playing baseball. And one time, according to urban myth, accidentally, when he was driving a hearse to the game, as he often did. Didn't realize there was a body in the back. So you know, these are some of the guys Babe Ruth was playing at. And Ohtani's numbers are very similar, if not exactly as good to all the

[Jason McIntyre]

potential journalists in the crowd. That's how it's done. I'm just telling you, Rachel did that so nicely. I would have just destroyed the pipe fitter and the chimney sweep who was batting fifth in the lineup. But I won't do that.

[Rachel Nichols]

I just tell you I'm stumping for my guy. Best baseball player of all time.

[Jason McIntyre]

I like it. Rachel with the news.

[Jason McIntyre (continuation) / Herd Line News Host]

Well, that's the news.

[Rachel Nichols]

And thanks for stopping by the Herd

[Jason McIntyre]

LIE news coming up next. There's a big new book out on Lionel Messi and the author is stopping by.

[Jason McIntyre (continuation) / Herd Line News Host]

Be sure to catch live editions of the Herd weekdays at noon Eastern, 9:00am Pacific.

[Podcast Announcer/Commercial Voice]

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[Jason McIntyre]

Let's welcome in Paul Tenorio from the Athletic. He is a very prolific soccer writer, just wrote the book on Messi and wouldn't you know it, Paul Messi just happens to have the greatest comeback in World cup history yesterday. I mean, your thoughts on the game. There's, there's a picture of the book the Messy Effect how the Global Legend Changed the Future of American Soccer.

[Paul Tenorio]

Yeah, I mean he's insane, right? Like every time you think that he's done Doing special magic things on the biggest stage. He pulls something else out. And, you know, I think this one even surprised him. You could see in his emotion after the game how important it was to him. And he said after he felt a responsibility, right, because he had missed that penalty kick, that he felt changed the game, game. So for him to get the goal the way he did, for the team to come back the way it did, it seems like this Messi story doesn't want to end. And certainly, I think you can see with this Argentina team, as we did in Qatar four years ago, how much it means to them to continue to push Argentina and Messi towards more and more history.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah, it really is amazing. But I want to use that as a spin off to the US because, you know, Paul, like, all the energy and grit and resolve that we saw from Argentina, we didn't see any of that at all from the US Once they were down again, we saw it from Mexico, down 2 nothing. Against England, Argentina was down 2 nothing. Both of those teams rallied hard. Even though Mexico lost, the US didn't really put up a fight against Belgium. I think that's why there's so much outrage. I'm just curious, like, why do you think we did not display that, that

[Paul Tenorio]

it really felt like the moment was too big for this team? You know, 40 million people watching. What an enormous missed opportunity for American soccer. And there is a connection between what Messi is doing and what the US team is doing and what's going to happen for the sport. And the US did have an obligation to put something better on that stage. And from the very go for, you know, from the first whistle, Serginio Dess mistaking the ball, thinking it was going to be a U.S. throw. And seeing it out, you could almost feel the nerves and the tension coming out on the field. And then conversely, I think Belgium was united around this cause, playing for football, playing against FIFA, and a team that had been so disjointed, that is so talented on paper, but just looks like they don't really fit well together, suddenly had something to fight for. And the US was left, left grasping at a team that was playing faster than them, thinking faster than them, playing harder than them, and they could never really recover. Even as the crowd in Seattle tried to push them back into the game, it didn't work.

[Jason McIntyre]

Yeah, it's interesting. The round before Belgium was down 2 nothing to Senegal, just getting their butts kicked. And they sub off De Bruyne and Doku like two of their best players, and it was like, okay, well, we rallied to win. And then their coach went and started the same group that rallied, leaving De Bruyne on the bench. And people are like, wow, now. I mean, I had a buddy texting me, paul, who played a high level of soccer, we should bench Pulisic at the half. He's been that bad. And I'm like, we would never do that in America. They eventually pulled Pulisic, but I gotta ask you, what'd you think of his performance?

[Paul Tenorio]

Yeah, I think he was. He just wasn't very good. And neither was the rest of the US Team. But Pulisic especially had a terrible half. He gave the ball away 11 times in the first 45 minutes, more than any other player on the field. And that's not a typical Christian Pulistic performance. He has been the player who typically steps up on the biggest stages for the US he scored in Nations League finals. He scored the goal to send the US out of the group stage against Iran in the last World cup, was the best player on the field in the first 45 minutes of that Paraguay game. That got the country so excited. And yet here in this enormous moment, it felt like he was trying to do too much. It felt like he was trying to take all of that onto his shoulders. And I think Christian Pulisic is at his best when he's not doing that, when he trusts the players around him. And it just looked. I thought he was kind of the microcosm of the story as a whole for the U.S. all of this hope, all of this potential, all of this belief around this player, around this team, and then when the country's watching them at this moment, where a win would do so much to change people's minds about American soccer, American men's soccer, American, they don't just lose, they get completely battered. And it sets the narrative back.

[Jason McIntyre]

So I would still argue that this World cup was a success for the US Team.

[Podcast Announcer/Commercial Voice]

We.

[Jason McIntyre]

Our best effort in the group stage ever. Most goals we've ever scored in the World cup, like, we were really good. And then it all fell apart. I'm just wondering, do you think that whole Baligan stuff was a distraction for the US Heading? Because we did not look anything like that in the other games. I'm excluding Turkey because we started, like, 10 backups, but I don't know, Paul, what do you think? Was it a distraction or was. Or maybe Belgium rise to the occasion saying, man, screw these guys and their preferential treatment? I don't know.

[Paul Tenorio]

I think it's the latter more than the Former talking to guys around the team, both in the mix zone after the game and since then. They really kind of shut the world out in the 24 hours before the game. They felt like they didn't really realize how big it had become until after the game when they started to absorb more of it. But Belgium certainly did absorb all of it as it was going on. And Yuri Tillemans said when we heard the news that Baligan was coming back in, when we saw that Trump was evolved, essentially they held a team meeting and they said, let's use this and go do our talking on the field. So it motivated Belgium. It did. They used it as fuel in that locker room and they felt like they wanted to make a statement against the team that the rest of the world was looking at as saying, you think your privilege is what's going to get you to the next round. We're going to set you back in place.

[Jason McIntyre]

That's good stuff, Paul. Dropping some bombs.

[Jason McIntyre (continuation) / Herd Line News Host]

Wow.

[Jason McIntyre]

I didn't even know that Pulisic stat gave it away 11 times in the first half. That's terrible. So let me ask you, do you think we need material changes across the board to get ready for 2030? I mean, Pochettino, somebody was telling me they think it's 60, 40. He stays or listen, we have our quote unquote, golden generation where we only need a few tweaks. Obviously, Tim Ream is ain't coming back. We probably need to find a new goalie, but. Or do you think we've got something here? We just ran into a bit of a buzzsaw.

[Paul Tenorio]

No, I mean, this is actually a lot of what my book the Messi Effect is about. It's how do you push this game forward in the country? And I think there are a few big picture things that need to change. And I actually think a lot of the conversation has revolved around youth soccer, and there's a lot to get done and make better in that area. But the professional league in this country needs to get better. And the onus is on them to improve the product, to improve the level of the league so that that we're setting the ceiling higher for our best young American players who are coming through MLS academies, getting to the first team that they're training in better environments, they're playing in better games, they're developing at a higher level that's critical to the future of this national team. And so there is an enormous responsibility that now gets transferred over to Major League Soccer's owners and its executives to make votes and Change the rules in this league so that it can be more competitive with the rest of the world. That's enormously important. Important. But those changes aren't going to take place fast enough to have an impact in four years time. And so there has to be a little bit of an internal search here amongst the players who are already a part of this pool and the young players who are starting to come through. Players like XAVIER Gozo, the 19 year old in Salt Lake, or Audrey Mehmedi, the teenager in Red Bulls Julian Hall. These young players who are starting to play more minutes and be more competitive, there has to be an understanding that you still have to have the mentality American soccer has always have. You can dream of playing on the biggest stages, you can play an aggressive and attractive style as the US did against Paraguay, but you cannot lose the fight that you were talking about that wasn't there against Belgium. You cannot lose the mentality that or think that you can just walk, waltz onto a field and beat a team that is just as good or better on paper, who has players playing at just as high of a level as your golden generation, that you have to be able to fight your way to a win. And that mentality is what has to carry forward. Whether it's Pochettino or not, that mentality has to be there in this pool. And that's what I give Pochettino credit for, for instilling into the national team program whoever US Soccer hires, if he doesn't come back, the number one task is maintaining that, that culture within the program of saying the players don't get to pick and choose when they come in. You're either all in or you're not.

[Jason McIntyre]

Well, I don't know. You say that's number one and you're probably right. But one could argue that dual nationals and essentially recruiting them could be number one. Cuz Flo Malligan and I think he was our best player at the cup and you know, he could have gone Nigeria, could have gone England. And I'm nerding out and I'm looking at, you know, 20, 30 young kids, 16 to 22 and like some of the best ones are dual nationals who haven't picked which side they're going to. So do you track some of that stuff or is that too far ahead?

[Paul Tenorio]

Yeah, of course, of course. It's always been a part of the equation for the U.S. men's National Team. There's always players that can, can choose one country or the other and it's always a big part of the national team picture to recruit those players, you know, so whether we're talking about Noah Kai Banks who's playing over in Germany, the center back who hasn't picked one or the other, or whether we're talking about somebody like Julian hall, the forward at Red Bulls whose mother is Polish and who the Poland National Federation is trying to recruit him away from the U.S. men's National Team program. So that's always a big part of this. And yeah, I mean, a lot of jokes that were going around the group chats was like we need the US Soldiers to stay in those bases over in Europe to make sure that we're still producing the future generations of this national team. But you know, certainly I think it's all of this, right? All of these factors come together, the mentality and the culture, finding the right players. But I really think for the long term of this sport, we have to start holding Major League Soccer accountable, to change, to grow faster, to be a little bit more aggressive. They've built the infrastructure in this country. We've seen it in this World cup tournament, right? We've seen the stadiums, the fans, the training facilities that are all around this country. The infrastructure has been built out. There's a permanence now for the sport in America that didn't exist when I was growing up. It's here now. And so now this country is showing they're ready to support soccer in a bigger way. And if we want to see this national team program grow, it has to start with the professional leagues in this country.

[Jason McIntyre]

Paul Tenorio the athletic wrote the Messi Effect. Paul, congratulations on all your success and great stuff. Thank you for the for the chat.

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[Jason McIntyre]

herd this is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.