The Lovable Reunion - Joe Maddon on Rizzo's hangover, Cubs CRAZY pizza party & NEW 2016 World Series stories w/ David Ross

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Herd with Colin Cowherd

Episode: The Lovable Reunion — Joe Maddon on Rizzo's hangover, Cubs CRAZY pizza party & NEW 2016 World Series stories w/ David Ross
Date: April 2, 2026
Guests: Joe Maddon (former Cubs manager), Anthony Rizzo (Cubs first baseman), David Ross (Cubs catcher/manager)

Episode Overview

This reunion episode of “The Herd” is a deep dive into the Chicago Cubs' legendary 2015–2016 run, seen through the eyes of the players and their storied manager, Joe Maddon. With hosts Anthony Rizzo and David Ross leading an intimate, laughter-filled conversation, Maddon shares untold stories about clubhouse culture, crucial postseason decisions, and the personal philosophies that reshaped the “lovable losers” into champions. The episode is rich with behind-the-scenes insights, focus on leadership, team culture, and the enduring legacy of the Cubs’ World Series victory.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Joe Maddon’s Origins & Philosophies (00:32–08:43)

• Maddon’s Path to the Cubs: Recalls his initial move from Tampa Bay, and early philosophical discussions with Jed Hoyer and Theo Epstein at his RV—a moment setting the stage for the Cubs' transformation.
• Tradition & Wrigley Field: Maddon describes feeling instant daily excitement:

  "I would walk in and look up and say, thank you... Wrigley Field, for me, is the best professional venue in all of sports." (02:08)

• Building Relationships and Trust:

  "You don't start [with data]; you start by relationship building, listening to people. Then you build trust..." (06:38)

• Core Maddon Philosophy: "Honesty without compassion equals cruelty." (08:00)

2. Culture Shift and Innovations (08:27–14:42)

• From Analytics Pioneer to Culture Creator:

  "It's not old school, it's not new school, it's being in school." (09:30)

• Cubs as Modern Baseball Trendsetters:
  • First spring training with music, skits, and a blend of analytics with human insight.
• Empowerment vs. Control: Maddon emphasizes blending intuition with analytics and empowering players over exerting control.
• Leadership by Example:

  "The more freedom given, the greater respect and discipline returned." (14:31)

3. Handling Players, Mistakes, and Growth (15:04–21:05)

• Minimal Rules, Maximum Trust:
  • Clubhouse rules boiled down to simplicity: "Do simple better," "Respect 90," "If you think you look hot, you look hot."
• Letting Players Lead:

  "You guys all know wrong from right. Choose right." (16:41)

• Allowing for Mistakes & Creativity: Maddon’s approach to Javy Báez’s wild play:

  "If he knows he's going to go to the principal's office every time, he ain't going to try this stuff." (19:48)

• Five Levels of a Big Leaguer: From “Happy to be here” to “All I want to do is win”—a roadmap for player development. (21:31)

4. Resilience, Chemistry & Notable Season Moments (26:00–43:36)

• Veteran-Led Stability:

  "I'll tell you one guy who does not panic... Your manager does not." (26:02 - Eric Hinske)

• Handling Pressure & Keeping Perspective: Maddon attributes his calmness to years of observing before leading, and to experience.
• Notable Tactical Moves:
  • Travis Wood in the outfield, five-man infields, letting pitchers and fielders act with freedom led to creative advantages (28:57, 29:02).

5. Celebrations, Hangovers & the Importance of the “Pressure Release Valve” (29:21–38:18)

• Celebration as Therapy:
  • Disco balls, pizza parties, and 30-minute loss rules—innovative approaches to sustaining morale over a long season.
  • “Celebrating achievement never gets old.” (30:35, Joe Maddon)
• Allowing for Human Flaws:
  • Rizzo’s honesty about hangovers, or needing a night out, met with empathy—not discipline. (34:02)

  • "Sometimes it's necessary, brother. We play every day..." (34:09, Joe Maddon)

6. Balancing Work and Fun (38:18–43:40)

• Pressure, Expectations, and Wellness: Maddon underscores the need for down-time and balance to avoid burnout, and the essential humanness behind baseball's daily grind.

7. Breakthrough Moments & Playoff Memories (43:40–56:29)

• 2015 Turning Points:
  • The sweep of San Francisco as the squads’ coming-of-age moment. (40:11–42:59)
• Tough Conversations, Directness, and Honesty:

  "If I tell you the truth, you might not like me for a week... But if I lie to you, you can hate me forever." (45:07, Joe Maddon)

• Player Management Innovations: Posting lineups a day in advance, ensuring genuine days off for regulars (46:24–49:44).

8. 2015 Postseason: The Arietta Wild Card Game & The St. Louis Conquest (50:40–53:53)

• Letting Arietta Finish: Trusting players who’ve “stretched their minds” for big moments.
• Breaking the Cardinals’ Hold: “We had to take it from them.” (53:11, Joe Maddon)

9. The 2016 Season: Embracing the Target (54:22–58:36)

• Transformation Post-Mets Sweep: 2016’s “World Series-or-bust” mentality, relentless start, and new slogans:

  "Embrace the target." (56:01, 56:46, Joe Maddon)

• Pressure as Positive:

  "I like the word expectations a lot. Not a little bit, a lot ... If you do not have pressure and expectations applied to it, why do it?" (57:13)

10. The World Series: Chess Moves & Historic Pressure (61:10–85:59)

• NLCS and World Series Managerial Decisions:
  • Miggy Montero’s Grand Slam (61:59), Almora’s pivotal baserunning in Game 7.
  • The challenge of double switches and National League strategy mastery.

  "Anybody that says it's just like a double, switch your butt..." (63:53)

• Final Game Nerves: Decisions around Lester, Chapman, and that infamous rain delay.
• Personal Rituals:
  • Maddon with his father’s hat during the rain delay.

  "That was during the rain delay, right?" (85:17, Anthony Rizzo)

11. Legacy, Impact, and Final Philosophical Nuggets (88:30–95:46)

• Legacy Reflections:

  "You never know when you're making a memory." (92:34, Joe Maddon)

• Advice to Coaches and Players:

  "Authenticity cannot be manufactured. It's got to be organic." (95:35)

• The weight of impacting hundreds of players across decades, and the importance of communication, compassion, and being oneself.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On clubhouse freedom:

  "The more freedom given, the greater respect and discipline returned." (14:31, Joe Maddon)

• On making mistakes:

  "If you have to worry about making a mistake, then you'll never do the right thing." (18:58, Joe Maddon)

• Cubs culture in a nutshell:

  "You guys all know wrong from right. Choose right." (16:41, Joe Maddon)

• Maddon’s coaching mantra:

  "Honesty without compassion equals cruelty." (08:00, Joe Maddon)

• The 2016 World Series pressure:

  "All of a sudden now you're being picked to win the World Series... How does that happen? ... We just need to embrace the target." (56:46, Joe Maddon)

• Rain delay ritual:

  "I went upstairs in a rain delay and did that [put father’s hat in my belt]." (85:18, Joe Maddon)

• Rizzo on the 2016 Game 7 heartbreak and recovery:

  "So Raja hits the home run. I’m at first... I’m numb. My full body numb." (83:35, Anthony Rizzo)

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Timestamps for Key Sections

• Joe’s arrival in Chicago, Rays roots: 00:54–03:20
• Building Cubs’ culture, trust, “honesty without compassion:” 05:39–08:18
• Analytics meets intuition, being “in school”: 09:27–11:54
• Letting players lead, “choose right” mantra: 14:07–17:52
• Celebrations, “disco ball” and pressure release: 29:41–30:35
• Alcohol & hangovers: Rizzo’s confession: 34:02–34:09
• Five levels of a Big Leaguer: 21:31–25:31
• 2015 turning point (Giants series): 40:11–42:59
• 2015 postseason: Wild Card and Cards: 50:40–53:53
• 2016 “Embrace the target” philosophy: 56:01–58:14
• NLCS and World Series chess moves: 61:41–63:53
• World Series Game 7, rain delay & conclusion: 84:18–87:54, 88:30–95:46

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Episode Tone and Takeaways

This episode is heartfelt, unscripted, nostalgic, and packed with actionable leadership wisdom. Maddon’s humility, sharp baseball mind, and humanity take center stage, fostering a lively, respectful rapport with Rizzo and Ross. For any baseball fan—or anyone interested in building a winning team culture—this episode is an essential listen, full of takeaways about trust, authenticity, communication, and the magic that happens when people are empowered to be themselves.

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Transcript

[Anthony Rizzo]

Foreign. Here we are at the lovable reunion podcast, interviewing our coach, Joe Madden.

[Joe Maddon]

Coach Anthony, and I call him Anthony's plural.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Two time World Series champion. One as a manager, been to three World Series, right. Second most winning percentage of Cubs history behind Frank Chance, who Rossi played for.

[Joe Maddon]

Always throw me under the bus that never gets sold.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And I say, joe, when you surprised everyone in 2015 with signing with us, it was the first block of building a championship team. And you literally, under your leadership, turned the lovable loser franchise into expected World Series contenders. So thank you before we get started,

[David Ross]

but let's give it up for Joe.

[Joe Maddon]

Matt.

[David Ross]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

There were no players there. Are you kidding me? Thank you. Anthony's. And that was. I remember that so well. You know, just getting there in the first place, I really didn't have any Cub tradition built into me. I was an American Leaguer. You know, I came from the Rays, and Jed and Theo showed up down in your neck of the woods down near Tallahassee, Navarre Beach. And I was in my RV at Navarre beach. And they come down there and they sit down. We sit down in the back of my. Behind my RV on this little, Little beach back there and just start talking philosophically. Right.

[David Ross]

Well, you had some history with them, with interviewing in Boston, right?

[Joe Maddon]

That was many years before. That was 2004, when Tito got the job. And I really wasn't ready for that job at that time. I even told him afterwards, you guys made the right choice. Tito was a much better choice for me than me at that particular juncture, but I was the best choice at that particular juncture. I thought my time at the Rays really helped me with the planning component of that. I knew what I wanted. You know, you arrive at a point in your life where you know what you know, I know that sounds dumb, but some people really don't know what they know. They. They're regurgitators. They're always repeating things that they've heard from somebody else. But by the time I get to the Cubbies and even after, I mean, even with the Rays, I knew. I really felt I knew what it would take to put us into that position. And of course, you have to have great players. Don't be deceived. I mean, managers are good because the players are good. And if you have a really good pitching staff, you're even better. And if you have a real closer, you can be the best manager there is. All that stuff is part of the gig. But you guys were fabulous. It was so interesting because the Rays are Great. I love Tampa Bay, and we're here right now, but the tradition of the Cubs walking in the Wrigley Field every day. I would walk in and look up and I'd say, thank you, because I never experienced that. Anaheim was great for a while, but I was not a manager. And the Rays played at the Trop, which is cool. But Wrigley Field, I think for me is the best professional venue in all of sports. I would go to Europe, all these soccer stadiums, whatever, and I put Wrigley up against all of them, because on a daily basis, those people at that ballpark, you could play and I'll shut up in a second, but remember, we played the Indians on a Monday in a makeup game. I think it was 2016. Make up Monday at 1 o' clock in the afternoon. I think it was Lester versus Kluber. Kluber. 40,000 people.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Insane.

[Joe Maddon]

It doesn't happen. So anyway, long answer, but there's so much adrenaline and excitement in that ballpark every frigging day. And then we have a combination. Now, these guys are great players, but think of the charisma of our group. And it started in 15, but it really built into 16. But charismatically, you guys are so cool to be with on a daily basis. And I was with a bunch of men. I wasn't with a bunch of kids, you know, and that really was exciting to me, too. So there's a lot of contributing factors to that. I was just. I was fortunate and happy to be there because I felt really good about that group.

[David Ross]

Well, we mimicked the cool manager you are. You know, I mean, so outside the box and. Yeah, the shaving, the head in spring training, the shots at the press conference.

[Anthony Rizzo]

I mean, I remember that press conference

[Joe Maddon]

like you do really well.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Rossi and I had. We were doing an ESPN car wash for the playoffs and 14 going into 15. And I remember. I remember talking to my. Our agents. We had the same agents, and I was like, rossi's what we need as a young team. And then you came over and I was like, oh, my God. And then we signed Lester and Rossi. But at your press conference, it was, you know, I think you said. You said something along the lines of, unless you can't be here, unless we align perfectly with the front office.

[Joe Maddon]

Right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And for a number of years, we did. You aligned perfectly with the front office. And obviously later on the year, you know, things changed a little bit.

[David Ross]

Wrist stop hitting and off.

[Anthony Rizzo]

No, that was. That was taxes and me hitting. And those years were very consistent.

[David Ross]

I got to take a jab at you every once in a while.

[Anthony Rizzo]

But there's just. I respected you so much from afar as a young player. I was 21 when I got called up. I was in the big leagues for four years before you signed. And I remember with the raise you did, I think it was like a Woodstock trip out west.

[Joe Maddon]

We did that was to Seattle.

[Anthony Rizzo]

All the things you did. I'm like, this is what we need. Because I'm like, as a rookie, like, you're supposed to get to the field at 12 o' clock for 7 o' clock game. Like, why are we getting here so early?

[Joe Maddon]

It's nuts.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And everything you did from afar, I aligned with. So when we signed you, I was literally like a kid. I'm still like a kid every time around you.

[Joe Maddon]

So I appreciate it.

[David Ross]

What did you try to implement coming in to Chicago? Like, what was. You get a new job, you're trying to learn everything. And what did you feel like when you first got there? I really want to change this, or you're really good about being yourself, but what. What kind of a new environment? That's. That's not easy.

[Joe Maddon]

I Learned something in 1985 for something like that with Gene Mock. That goes back a bit. I was running the instructional league in Arizona. I was the field coordinator and manager. I wasn't managing, but I was leading that instructional league group. Gene comes in a ton. I'm out in a cage. I'm just throwing my bp, but I'm running the whole thing. And Gene walks up to me and he says in between, he gave me one of these. Come over and speak with him. You've created a great environment around here. And he had his, like, polyesters on, his hair's perfect. Smoking a cigarette. He's loved to play golf, bridge smoke, a little bourbon. Then he just takes off like a puff. You know, he just disappears. And I thought to myself, what the hell is he talking about? I had no idea what he was talking about. And I think when you do things organically, you don't know what you're doing sometimes, which is a good thing. It's like the zone of being a coach or a manager. But I went home that night and I thought, what the hell is he talking about? So I sat around and actually took notes. I wrote notes. By my. At that time, I was a big note taker. We built relationships and conversations and not just talking to somebody, really listening to somebody. There's a difference. We were talking about that before we started doing this. To really listen to somebody, people will Have a conversation, kind of. But did we really listen to one another? And a lot of times the answer is no, but that was my first takeaway. And then what happened because of that? We trusted each other. I mean, and I know everybody wants more ground balls, choreographed early work, all kinds of data, information, booklets on the bench. Everybody wants. You don't start there. You start by relationship building, listening to people. Then you build trust, and then you can exchange ideas. In other words, like, David and I have different perspective or thoughts on something. So you give me yours, I give you mine. And because we built trust and we have a relationship, it's not going to be like, oh, I'm not going to listen to Joe. I'm just going to. He's not listening to me right now. It's my way. Or I'm not going to support him whatsoever. So you get this pushback. But if you establish those first two things, then we can exchange ideas and I can disagree with you and we can listen because that leads to constructive criticism. Think about it. Think about it. I mean, my best coaches, the guys are really loved. The guys that told me when I was wrong.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Yeah.

[David Ross]

Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Well, you said honesty without compassion equals cruelty.

[Joe Maddon]

That's right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

That's.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

I took that with me as soon as I heard you say that. You said it early when you first signed with us.

[Joe Maddon]

It's one of my faves.

[Anthony Rizzo]

It was game changing for me as a leader, especially as a young leader at the time was, I can't tell anyone what to do if they don't trust me as a. As a person, first they need to know I have their best interest.

[Joe Maddon]

Correct.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Because you go and tell someone, if anyone. Coach. You have coaches all the time. You come like, hey, you should do this. I'm like, hold on. I don't even know you. My name's Anthony. Nice to meet you.

[Joe Maddon]

Perfect.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Let's have a beer.

[Joe Maddon]

Perfect, perfect, perfect. That's right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And you instill that, and you come over and you create the greatest culture of a generation. Really. You were such a pioneer. And we were the first team to have music at spring training. Every team, all 30 teams now have music everywhere.

[Joe Maddon]

Right, right, right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

All the skits. Right. You were pioneer with analytics. That was taboo back in the day. And then you transitioned and became more of the see and feel and analytical guy.

[Joe Maddon]

So it's like, it's a combination of everything.

[Anthony Rizzo]

The journey of Joe in your, what, 50 years? 60 years. 50 years.

[Joe Maddon]

No, I started in as a coach in 1981, as a player in 76 but I appreciate that because that's exactly how I feel about it. It's a morphing of things. It's not just data and analytics. It's also feel and experience and intuition. I think. You guys know. You know Todd Green, don't you? Yeah, Green. Do you know Todd Green at all? Green is one of my players with the Angels. He's a scout now.

[David Ross]

We were both catchers in aaa. The daughters.

[Joe Maddon]

Beautiful man. Beautiful man.

[David Ross]

That's how I went to the hockey mask, okay?

[Joe Maddon]

He kept getting his bell rung with. I said, stop doing that. Anyway, so Greeny brought to my attention. It's not old school, it's not new school, it's being in school. You know, I think we, you know, it is a great line because I don't want to argue with you about what I learned from Bob clear in 1979 as a coach or what I learned from Andrew Friedman in 2006 or seven as a young manager with the Tampa Bay Rays or the Devil Rays at that time. That's not the point because all of that is important to me. When you extremism in any shape or form in our politics in today's world is awful. I'm not into extremes. I think there's a balance to be sought and controlled and felt with everything. So I was at the forefront of the data, data analytics in the early 2000s. It was all my own stuff. I. Nobody told me how to do this. But, but I got Bob Clear, I got, I got Gene Mock, I got Whitey Herzog, I got Cookie Rojas, I got Marcel Ash, I could go on Sam. I got Don Zimmerman, I got all these dudes, come on. I got their stuff. And then I got the newer stuff that started about 2005, 6, 7, with the devil Rays. And why would I not want to use both sides of this thing? Why would you want to rely heavily on one or the other? Why can't you understand how important it is to morph these things together to really come to being in school? Graney was brilliant when he told that to me. So that's where we lie today. It's too heavy handed. I believe one side being the more analytical, data driven, controlling side, as opposed to the empowerment side, which is the intuition, the feel, the experience side. For me, if you really want to win championships on a regular basis, learn how to bring them both together. Because I want, if I ever got to do this again, I want the best analytical staff money can buy.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Totally.

[Joe Maddon]

Information, absolutely. But then I want the best tobacco, spitting, honest, telling, Experienced guys that piss you off when they tell you the truth. Guys.

[David Ross]

You told me that when I called you when I got the managerial job and we talked for like an hour and you told me, don't take for granted and for forget your experience, because that's going to guide you and that's really going to, like, try. You know, everybody says, you know, we don't want to listen to our gut, but your gut is your experience talking to you. And the things that you've been through in the dugout as a player, like, don't forget those as a manager, because they carry a ton of weight and a ton of value.

[Joe Maddon]

I'm going to make a recommendation right now. I've read a book recently. I'm reading it right now. It's called, you'd Already know the Lady's professor from Northeastern University, Laura Huang. I found somebody sent me like a little excerpt of her work. So I got in touch with her. I called her on the phone. Brilliant. This lady's a young lady. She teaches at Northeastern. And the whole book is about experience, intuition, gut feeling.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Wow.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah. But she really. It's academia, but she explains it in such a wonderful way. It's very identifiable. And that's the part of the world today that I think we're getting away from. I think AI is going to take even further away from that. You're going to realize more. Why do we want machines to tell us how to live and what to be and how to do things? Why, even in a sport, why do you want to rely on a machine? Data, information, math, whatever you want to call. Why? Why is it so important to do that? And why do you think? I. I would say give me my. Give me the best coaching staff that I can put together and I. I'll battle your AI all day long.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And I mean, there's no staff that you brought in for us.

[Joe Maddon]

Exactly. There's no. There's no definitive reason why. You think just because this data and information, this AI stuff, I'm here to tell you, if I get, like the right group of coaches together and I still want to utilize that, I still want my information and you can utilize. Go ahead and buy some good coaches yourself, but just give me that opportunity, we're going to bust your balls right down to the very end under those circumstances, and that's what's missing. And it's the human element. God dang. It's the human. You're just talking about the culture and everything else we had. You're not going to get that from A computer?

[Anthony Rizzo]

No.

[David Ross]

Well, I think that's what we. I wanted to get into because we feel like our coaches are on that 2016 team. Were game changers. Like, can you walk through just like the guys? Busy Borsy, Hider Jones, Davey Martinez. I mean ski and ski. Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Guys that were in the trenches every day. And it's like you were so good, Joe, at distracting the media. Distracting the players from the media that I think guys don't even understand. To where the manager has to do so many obligations. And then Davey would just come in and let. I had a phrase. Prisoners run the asylum.

[Joe Maddon]

Right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

They let you guys let us run the assignment. Of course, with structure, every so often the wardens had to step in and get us in line. But if, if there was fires to be put out, either come and talk to you who you're the easiest manager I've ever was able to talk to, or Davey would come and be, hey, this is why we're doing this, or no, we're not doing that. And like that was it.

[Joe Maddon]

You love the Uncle Sam poster, right?

[Anthony Rizzo]

Oh, yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

That's one of the paintings we did. And you know what the main theme of that is? The more freedom given, the greater respect and discipline returned.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Totally.

[Joe Maddon]

As a professional, I'm not going to do that with fifth graders. Okay. I'm not going to let a bunch of fifth graders run the asylum. But if you're a professional, 20 plus year old, old enough to drink, old enough to vote, old enough to die in a war. Right. And I'm going to tell you everything. How to act on a daily basis. No. The more freedom I give you, the greater respect I'm going to get coming back towards me. And more freedom I give you, the more you're going to actually listen to me.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Totally. We have three rules.

[Joe Maddon]

At least weigh. At least weigh what I have to say. Sure. Right. Because I never. I never. I could almost use the word never. Created like an edict. You got to do this, we got to do that. The closest I came to that. You don't remember, this is 2015 in. We did cut offs and relays.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

I hated it. And I stopped everything.

[David Ross]

I loved it.

[Joe Maddon]

I remember Starlin Castro. I remember all the dudes. I remember Javi just going through the motions. We started doing relay catch.

[David Ross]

That's right.

[Joe Maddon]

You realize we didn't screw up a freaking. We didn't put money on it.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Relay catch. Because you can't take it too serious. You know how to do the fundamentals.

[Joe Maddon]

Exactly.

[Anthony Rizzo]

You had three rules. When in 2015. Do simple.

[Joe Maddon]

Better dress right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Respect. 90.

[Joe Maddon]

Right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And our dress code, if you think you look hot.

[Joe Maddon]

That's right.

[David Ross]

You said. You said in that speech in spring trains, like, whoever made putting a collar on a shirt, all of a sudden,

[Joe Maddon]

why isn't that your right win. Right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And that. That alone, to a young group that's still learning how to win in 15, was like, this is amazing. Don't. You got pissed off if we didn't play hard.

[Joe Maddon]

Right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

You got. Seldom did guys know you got pissed off. But as we got to know you

[Joe Maddon]

a little bit, we could tell. Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And if there was mental errors, hated mental errors. And that's what we knew. So it's like, don't. Don't up. Don't be that person.

[Joe Maddon]

And we can literally do whatever you wanted to.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And it was.

[David Ross]

And the spring training used to stand of brothers. It was a band of brothers. And we. And you gave us that freedom. And I think that's how a team. A team needs to be led by the players, right?

[Joe Maddon]

Absolutely.

[David Ross]

But you would say in your speech in spring training, you would say, you guys all know wrong from right. Choose right.

[Joe Maddon]

That's correct.

[David Ross]

Choose right. It's not hard.

[Joe Maddon]

I've been using that since, like, 19, whatever. When I managed the Idaho Falls Angels and the Salem Angels in 1981. 82. 83. That would be part of what I talk to these guys about, you know, what's right and wrong. I don't have to stand up here and tell you what's right and wrong. You grew up in a family. You have a father, you have a mother. You had teachers, you had coaches. You know what's right and wrong. I thought, like, write it down on a piece of paper. Choose right. Just choose right every time. And we're not. That's right. We're not going to have any issues because I'm not going to stand there and just lord over you and be your father. I'm not your dad. Right. I'm your manager. And I'm here to make sure this runs properly. And for me, it's about on the field. I want it uniformity. I want a consistency. That's. That's where I want it to. I don't want to use a word, conformity. But again, unity is probably the right way to put it off the field. I wanted you to dress however you want it. Wear your hair however you want it. I don't care how many earrings you wore. I didn't care about any of that. This doesn't matter. But when you Got on the field at that point, if I gave you enough freedom to be yourself, you're going to give me that respect back to play the game properly. That's what I always thought.

[David Ross]

I remember you getting flak out. We picked a guy off first in the Washington D.C. game.

[Joe Maddon]

Outside of the game.

[David Ross]

No, it was the first Soto. Anyways, we pick him off and you were like, did you. The media was like, did you call that play? You let them do that. You're like, of course we let them do it. Like, they see an opportunity, take advantage of it. I think that freedom, like you said, you handled all of me and stuff. I never felt like there was this curse, this thing hanging over because we were our only new unit within. Inside the clubhouse, the mle. And you let us kind of have that freedom within that structure. And I thought that's what brought out the best in. In all of us, myself included.

[Joe Maddon]

Was that the last out of the game?

[David Ross]

Last out of the game, yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

Pick him off.

[David Ross]

And we. We had that backpack. They're like, what if he doesn't?

[Anthony Rizzo]

Right.

[Joe Maddon]

Feel was like, well, what if he doesn't?

[David Ross]

You know, I remember you.

[Anthony Rizzo]

What if you could fly?

[David Ross]

What if you fail?

[Anthony Rizzo]

What if you could fly?

[Joe Maddon]

The point was, if it's the right baseball plate to do, then do it.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Totally.

[Joe Maddon]

And if it doesn't work out, well, I'm okay with that. But it was the right thing to do in the moment, that show. And when you have to worry about making a mistake, then you'll never do the right thing.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

Because you're going to be with Hobby, Right? Right, Absolutely.

[Anthony Rizzo]

You literally. I don't think Javi knows this. I'm sure he does. But how you handled Javi and just let Javi be Hobby, he turned into the magician, he turned into the wild man on the bases, and he played into that. And that's why I believe he blossomed. Because you see guys all the time with that type of talent. Well, maybe not his talent, but come up and just don't have the right mentors.

[Joe Maddon]

He's a baseball genius. He is. He just sees things other people don't see. And then he's able to react upon what he's seeing also. See, if you see something and there's any. I mean, any kind of hesitation, then that moment's gone. So that's purely reacted to a moment and he's able to do that, but he has to be able to. He has to know that if he does it and it doesn't turn out well, he's not going to the principles.

[David Ross]

That's right. That's right.

[Joe Maddon]

I mean, if he knows he's going to go to the principal's office every time, he ain't going to try this stuff. How about the place between third and home, the running place where he's safe?

[Anthony Rizzo]

Yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

I mean, stuff with Pittsburgh once, the Pittsburgh.

[David Ross]

I was like, what. What just happened?

[Anthony Rizzo]

Did you talk to him? Did you. Do you remember conversations, talking to him or no?

[Joe Maddon]

Oh, yeah. Well, most of the times when I did talk to him, when he was getting out of control at the plate, that's when I would talk to him. I'd say, Javi, right, center, counts. You know, that side of the field matters counts also. So I think primarily I'd be that my conversations would be more when I thought he was getting a little out of control offensively, but on defense. Yeah. What am I going to tell him? There's nothing I could help him with. I mean, that's another thing to know as a coach, as a manager, even as a hitting coach. A young Jim Edmonds. I'm up in Vancouver with him. I'm the rowing minor league hitting instructor. And James is just like tearing it up like he could. Right. And I'm just going there. I just. I stand off the side, I just watch him. And I'm watching. He's just tearing it up. So I'm there for a couple days and he's like, you know, why come you're not talking to me? Because I can't help you. I can only serve to confuse you right now. So please permit me to just watch. I'm taking my notes. When I come back into town, if things aren't right, I'll say something to you. But for right now, I cannot help. It can only hurt you. I told him exactly that.

[David Ross]

I want to sidetrack because this is like, so important to us a little bit, and it has to do with culture. But knowing your players and having all the background you did, the five levels of a big league.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Yeah.

[David Ross]

Like, that is the compassion.

[Anthony Rizzo]

The compassion you had for your players, knowing kind of where they're at in their journey was unmatched.

[David Ross]

And I think that's different when you're actually a player in the middle of it. And then as a veteran, I look back, I was like, that's exactly right. Like, can you list those real quick?

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah. Let me tell you exactly how it happened. 95. 6. 6. I was the first base. First base coach. Yeah. With the Angels and Marcel Lashman. Wonderful. Wonderful. Might have been 95. But anyway, 95 latch if things didn't work out well, always took the hit. He always thought it was his fault. And of course it wasn't. Marcel is one of the best, if not the best pitching coach I've ever been around. So we lose a tough game in Anaheim Stadium and I always, I would sit with him until he left because he would just beat himself up. So we're sitting there and I'm just observing. I don't know. I don't know. I've never played in the big leagues. I don't know. So I'm sitting there that night, I'm taking it all in. I go back to my Uncle Rick's house. I'm living with Uncle Rick up in Long beach. And I get there and all of a sudden I had this epiphany. And again, piece of paper by my bed wrote it down. What am I saying here? What am I saying? I don't know why I went five levels. Level one, happy to be here. First I called up. I was right. And I was right there. I was only called up a year. A year before, it must have been 95. Happy to be here as level one. Right? And we all. Like you said, I lost a brand new leather bomber jacket at the Hertz counter on my trip from Vancouver to Anon for my first trip to the big leagues because I was so excited, just happy to be there. And then once you get there, I

[David Ross]

got to the big leagues with the Dodgers and didn't play. And like about the seventh day and I'm like, send back Aaa.

[Joe Maddon]

I wanna.

[David Ross]

I was stoked to be Alex Cor actually told me. I said, he goes, how you doing, Ross?

[Joe Maddon]

I was like, just happy to be here.

[David Ross]

He's like, never say that. Never say it. I want to go back.

[Joe Maddon]

Exactly. So then once you've arrived that you realize all that, then you get to the next point. Man, I really like this. I want to stay here. This is really good survival. And survival is very dangerous because when you're like happy to be here, you could help the team. You're out there playing, you're freewheeling it. You have your blinders on. You don't even see the third deck yet. The lights, whatever, you don't read the papers, you don't care. So you're able to be productive and helpful. But the moment the, the blinders come off, you start to see everything. And man, I really dig on this stuff. I want to stare. Then you become very cautious and you don't want to make mistakes. You don't want anybody yelling at you or whatever, not playing you because of that. So it morphs from happy to be here to, like, damn, stage two, survival. I like this. I want to stay here. Dangerous, dangerous spot. And guys in that level, really, of course they can help you win, but their motivation isn't. Right. Their motivation is to not mess up.

[David Ross]

Yeah. Almost selfish a little bit.

[Joe Maddon]

Exactly. And then here comes level three, and this is what you want to get to. And I remember, you know, for me, specifically, even as a coach, I belong. Or I can do this. You know, that's a really strong epiphany. That moment when you look around at your peers and you feel like you're as good as everybody else here, everybody else out here, and you can do this on a daily basis. I can contribute. I know what to say in a meeting. I know how to break this down. Because it's the same game, but it's completely different. Minor leagues, the biggest. We all know that. So that's it. Level three, I belong to. I can do this. Wow. That's when you actually exhale. I think, for the first time. Level four, I want to make as much money as I possibly can.

[David Ross]

Fall in there. Right, Exactly.

[Joe Maddon]

But it's true, because it's a limit. You don't do it for 40 years. It's not like you're a doctor or lawyer, whatever. You could do this for many. You're. You have a definite finite time limit regarding doing that. So.

[David Ross]

And that's a whole nother pressure. Like, I want to have a good year because blah, blah, blah.

[Joe Maddon]

There's a lot going on there, man. So you get to level four, I want to make as much dough as I can. And here comes level five after you've made some money. All I want to do is win. And it's true. I mean, you go to the ballpark and there's no other agenda. You don't even think about anything else but winning. That's it. I mean, the blinders are on. You see this? Your focus is outstanding. You're not worried about all kinds of bullshit or crap. You don't worry about it. You're just worried about doing my job up and then maybe helping somebody else around me. And tonight's objective is to win. And how do we do that?

[David Ross]

We had a lot of those guys, Veteran guys.

[Joe Maddon]

Absolutely. Oh, my God.

[David Ross]

Make some money.

[Anthony Rizzo]

I think what was great, too, was because the mix of veteran and young players, I think that helps that it was so easy to be level one through three.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

But also be Level five. Because there was no one there that wasn't expecting to win every night. And that was the way your style manager, you played to pretty much win every night.

[Joe Maddon]

That's right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Very rarely we laid it down. No, right.

[Joe Maddon]

That's right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Very rarely we wanted. And when we did punt, it was okay.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah, it was okay when we went through a skid.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Like I remember Hinsky saying all the time, I'll tell you one guy who does not panic, and he would point at you all the time. Your manager does not. I mean, I'm sure you had your own emotions, but there's teams you're on and, like, you see all the. The structure starting to crumble a little bit, that the coaching staff starting to be like, point fingers a little bit, and it was that never.

[Joe Maddon]

I was so grateful it took me so long to become a major league manager, you know, because I. I observed everything.

[David Ross]

I regret that I don't have the experience that commanders have had.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah, I mean, that's. That's the honest to God truth. I mean, I. I saw from so many different angles. Being a minor league roving instructor was very helpful, too. Just going from town to town every. Every five, six days, you go to a different city, see a different manager. Yours see a different manager, theirs on the other side. And I was always observing what was going on with these managers and how they handled situations. So that's part of it also. So by the time I get to the major leagues, I knew, like I said, I know what I know. I knew. I would give you examples. If you pointed out different situations, I'd give you an example. I would call recall situations where. That's where I learned this from, and that's why I was able to process it the way I did. That's the experience component of it that we're just talking about at the control versus experience, the empowerment versus control. I mean, I learned all of that stuff. So when we got to different situations, I swear to you, I don't even know. This is not like a bragging kind of a comment. I don't know while I was with you guys, if anything popped that I really had not been through before.

[David Ross]

When you put Travis Wood in last year, I think we all were like,

[Joe Maddon]

going, what the hell is he doing? And then Woody knew. It's a whole row.

[David Ross]

Makes a case against the wall.

[Joe Maddon]

Like, well, you remember that. That was the night the. The lefty pitched. Mattis. Mattis, yeah.

[David Ross]

Oh, that's the. We've already discussed that game. Remember, Remember Theo came in and they pissed off the whole coaching staff. Lester told that story. Yeah, it was. It was. It was hairy. I remember. I.

[Anthony Rizzo]

We.

[David Ross]

We spoke about it, but I remember Theo being accountable, talks about that. Yeah, so Theo was very accountable when he came in. He's waiting on everybody. My bad. And then you.

[Joe Maddon]

The squeeze bot with Lee.

[Anthony Rizzo]

I was sick, fearless.

[Joe Maddon]

Well, the thing was, I. I give Theo a lot of credit because Theo went on a walk during the game. He was so upset with himself because the way the first was. They scored six runs in the first two and three. Two, Two, two. No. That's the kind of stuff that bonds. That brings things together. No doubt about it. So you take chances when you're going to lose or if you're losing. The sky's the limit. You just throw everything out there. You could be way more liberal under those moments. You're way more conservative when it's tighter, you just are. It's just. It's the way the game's played. So when you're losing or in the process of losing, you do anything you can to possibly win.

[David Ross]

Yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

And that's. That was the Woody thing. And then we did it with Strope and left field in Cincinnati. One time or two. That's what we. The. The. The Joe west and the umpires are really getting upset with me because I was, like, testing the rules a little bit. Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

The five man infield all the time, me playing. That was you letting me go all the way.

[Joe Maddon]

He and I talked about that.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Switch gloves.

[Joe Maddon]

But we. He and I talked about that. That was, like, really good. That was your idea. Original. His idea.

[David Ross]

Well, it permitted us to do the back picks with Javi and all kind of stuff.

[Anthony Rizzo]

A guy in the nlds. Right.

[Joe Maddon]

So when you. When you prep against the Cubs, like, there's so much to talk about.

[David Ross]

No doubt.

[Joe Maddon]

So much to talk about.

[David Ross]

I want to. I want to.

[Anthony Rizzo]

We.

[David Ross]

I feel like we talk culture all day. One more thing I want to hit on. How did you. You said you've learned this. How did you get the celebration after wins? Oh, that was a big part.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Another pioneer.

[David Ross]

That was a big part of us trying to move.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And I want to get into shots after we sweep.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Sometimes shots before the game.

[Joe Maddon]

Whatever it took, man.

[David Ross]

What?

[Joe Maddon]

Hey, I'm trying to think of, like, the first time, the celebration. I was at the race, and I can't remember the. The genesis of it, but I do remember the genesis of the disco ball. I told West. He was the clubhouse guy. I said, westy, we need some disco balls in Here. So, like, the game would be over, we'd walk and we'd win. And all of a sudden you'd be like a nightclub. It was like the. The Warm Up Lounge in Hazeldon. That's what I wanted to look like. So we walk in there and I. All this stuff's going on. We had Chris Rock one night at the head of the line. We won. We won. He's yelling as we walk in the locker room with the. With the disco balls going. So that was the first thing. And then it just worked from there. It morphed into a St. Pauli Girl sign. It morphed into instruments. Loney brought in like a saxophone that he was horrible at playing. But it was great. And it just kept evolving. James. Loney, James.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Yeah, and then we turned ours into.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah, then we took it to another level. We had an actual celebration. Yeah, we had, like, walked up off the dugout.

[Anthony Rizzo]

But it never got old. It never got.

[Joe Maddon]

No, it doesn't get old. Celebrating achievement never gets old. That's right.

[David Ross]

Winning is.

[Joe Maddon]

That's.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And the best part about that is lose for 30 minutes, right? Because there's so many games and it was like after 30 minutes, even if

[Joe Maddon]

it was a tough loss.

[Anthony Rizzo]

All right, that's it. On to the next one.

[Joe Maddon]

That was the problem I had with the Angels when I. In the late. In the middle to late 90s, you remember, we lost a huge lead to the Mariners in 96. We were up by 13 or 14 games.

[Anthony Rizzo]

I was like.

[Joe Maddon]

I was on August, like August 6th or. You what?

[David Ross]

I went in.

[Anthony Rizzo]

I was 5 or 6.

[Joe Maddon]

You were born on August 8th or 9th. What is it?

[Anthony Rizzo]

8th.

[Joe Maddon]

Okay, how about. I knew that. That's correct. That's crazy. So we have like a 13 or 14 game lead in the beginning of August and we lose it. We have a one game playoff with the Mariners at the end of the season. We lost Randy Johnson vs. Langston in the Kingdom. I was the first base coach anyway, that team and teams after that, I felt would take a loss and turning into tomorrow's loss also just by the way they reacted to. I'm watching guys come in the next day. They're sullen. They can't even talk to each other. You know, Dave Hollins, I love Dave Hollands. And David would be like, you'd remember Dad. I played with him. Dad did not like to lose brother, but I would like, oh, he's funny, man. God, did he make me laugh. But you come in the next day and we just lost. It felt like we just Lost. And I hated that. I knew that was why we're going to lose today and possibly again tomorrow till we finally shake it, get back to being normal. So that. That made me think of that.

[David Ross]

Well, that's simply the celebration one helped you in that day.

[Joe Maddon]

Right, Right.

[David Ross]

And then same with the 30 minutes. Like fine salt for 30 minutes. Yeah. People can come in, whatever.

[Anthony Rizzo]

It's just so easy to go through the motions, win or lose. Like, all right, well, now I have to get treatment. I have to do this.

[Joe Maddon]

Right. Exactly.

[Anthony Rizzo]

It's like, hold on. Let's. Let's celebrate the guys of the player of the game.

[Joe Maddon]

That's right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Or bring guys in and make everyone feel a part of it.

[Joe Maddon]

If a.

[Anthony Rizzo]

If a reliever got big outs. Right. Those guys are on islands there. Pitchers. So it was. It was incredible.

[Joe Maddon]

But losing hard for 30 is also important because somebody may have had like, some guys have a good game too, you know, and then. But we've lost. So they respect it. He has to control all of that. Also. There's. There's respect built into both sides of that, whether to celebrate. Because some guys, when you win, had a horrible day.

[David Ross]

Yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

You said. But they still have to revel in the win.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Yes. That told me big time.

[David Ross]

Yeah. That's a veteran team.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Yeah.

[David Ross]

Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Like, when I would be bad or not play well, I had to be. So. And it helped me get over not playing well because it was like winning cures everything.

[Joe Maddon]

Absolutely.

[Anthony Rizzo]

If I stunk and we won, it was like, all right.

[Joe Maddon]

And that's. That's awesome. Not everybody's like that.

[David Ross]

Yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

As you know.

[David Ross]

Yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

But that.

[David Ross]

You got to learn that skill set from around good veterans, good leadership. It's like, no, no, we won. I know you had a bad day, made three errors and went over. But like, back to tomorrow, because that's the one. I think that the short term memory is so important in baseball in particular, because it is every.

[Anthony Rizzo]

There's no coincidence us coming back down. Three, one.

[Joe Maddon]

No. No.

[Anthony Rizzo]

That was all literally two years of life lessons that we're all learning from veterans and young guys.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah. It was just.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Yeah. And when we were talking about trust, I thought of. I came into your office one day and I was like, this is the type of manager that you were. To me, you're like a second dad as my manager. And it was. I was like, man, last night, I think we went to the Aviary in Chicago and they make these like crazy drinks. We drink a bunch of wine. Emily and I, I was. Oof. Got after Last night. Oh, nice. You asked me what I was drinking, how I was feeling. I was like, all right, yeah, just hit the middle one today. And it was like, I walk out

[Joe Maddon]

of there, I feel so good.

[Anthony Rizzo]

I'm like, I just told my manager I got absolutely annihilated last night, and he supported me, and I probably went out and had a great game.

[Joe Maddon]

Sometimes it's necessary, brother. Sometimes it's necessary. That's. That's. We play every day. We play every day. And for those that have never played every day, have no idea what that feels like. And I'm not just talking about physically. The mental part of this game is the devastating part of this game, when you can control your thoughts and your actions mentally. That's the difference between being a superstar, just another guy, being a big leaguer, being a 4A guy. Guy that really can never get over the hump from AAA to that 4A. We call it 4A because it's the. The tweener guy between being a minor leaguer and a major leaguer. But you can't get over that. It's not because your skills aren't good. Your brain just can't deal with it, man. And when you can deal with it, when you learn how to, like, throw it away, I used to tell guys, sometimes you see that big lake out there? I called it an ocean. On the ride home tonight, take all those thoughts, wrap it around a big old rock, and throw it in that lake, and then come back tomorrow because you don't need those thoughts.

[Anthony Rizzo]

I. I always said when I played, if I was able to mentally shut off for one hour, it was equivalent to two weeks, of course, of a reset.

[Joe Maddon]

Sure.

[Anthony Rizzo]

So, like, I'd go out on Lake Michigan or hang out with some friends or go out in Chicago or on

[David Ross]

the road or Tiesto. Me, you and happer@tsto.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah.

[David Ross]

I was so hungover in a flight home when I was a special assistant, and I get. I checked the box score when we land him and have had the only rbi. So I'm like, yeah, you guys won. And I'm like, how in the heck are they even seeing.

[Anthony Rizzo]

That's funny. Yeah. Well, I remember spring training in the morning. Just spring training one year. We go to Vegas every year.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

You called me in the office, and I lined it up perfect. I was going to play the first game, you were giving me off the second, and I was like, let's set the whole night up. Right. Joe calls me in his office maybe a day or two before he goes, hey, you Know, Vegas, you know, puts on a big show.

[Joe Maddon]

Right? Right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

They need you to play the second game.

[Joe Maddon]

I'm like, oh.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And I told him I had this whole night. I'm like, oh. He's like, don't worry about it. He's like, you're going to come in. Have a great night. There's going to be three balls. Try to hit the center line. And then I brought the idea up, I think, of the Bloody Mary station and the Mimosa bar.

[Joe Maddon]

Okay. Okay.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And the next morning, we. Or in Vegas, we had a Bloody Mary bar before the game, the Mimosa station. And it was like we. We were there to work and also have fun. And you. If you don't do both,

[Joe Maddon]

you're going to implode at some point. That's the point. It's all about balance. The whole world's about balance. Your life's about balance. You got a new baby right now. You know exactly what that feels like. Once you have a child of your own, you understand what the word sacrifice really means. And until you have that baby, you'll never really know what the word sacrifice truly means. Everything's exposed to you as you go through life and in baseball right now. And I'm just going to pound on it for a second, because right now, the things we're talking about are not really embraced anymore. They're not really considered important anymore. And to me, they're the most important part of it. All the other stuff that you want to teach me, that's great. And I want, like I said, the best coaches, I want the best staff, whatever. But I also want a pressure release valve. There's enough pressure being applied to athletes. Look, just. I was watching the NBA game last night with the spurs and the Knicks. All of a sudden, you're playing a championship game, and the first month of the season pretty much, my God, that's kind of like the WBC Classic, I guess, right? You know, a couple years ago when Ohtani pitched that. But anyway, I believe in the pressure release valve, and I don't know that enough people understand that. Everybody. That everybody that's really never done what you guys have done. I have so much respect for what you guys have done, and that's where my perspective comes from. I never did it. I was good maybe once, two, three times a week at the most as a baseball player. And so the guy that could play every day, I think, how the hell does he. How can he. How can he maintain his focus, his sanity? And not only that, your physical repetition of your Skill. Now, that's big because, you know, to be able to do. Everybody takes it for granted. But whether it's your good batting stroke, whether it's your good throwing stroke, your good fielding stroke, whatever it might be to do that every day is less than 1% of the population. Whatever. It's so special.

[Anthony Rizzo]

You and I are so different. He was a switch. I was a switch guy. When he was playing, his switch was always on.

[Joe Maddon]

Okay, Right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

So he'd come in, he's playing while it's the fifth day.

[David Ross]

Pressure on. Playing once every day. Like, of course, yeah. I tell Lester, when I was up Lester's ass, because I'm like, if you

[Joe Maddon]

suck today, I'm gonna hit four.

[David Ross]

I only get three at bat, not for.

[Joe Maddon]

And then, then, then who hears about him? He's right. He and I had a great argument one night in my. One day in my lock in my office about something. I said, I pitch it for you or something like that.

[David Ross]

Oh, in Pittsburgh.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah. You came in, got really pissed off. We had a great conversation. I can't remember exactly how it went,

[David Ross]

but you were always open. Well, I think it was like, it was in 15, and I think I pitch hit 4. And from like, he was an angry elf when he. Yeah, but I was just like, yeah, it was just one of those things you always hated getting pinch hit for. But I didn't think the guy pinch hitting for me was better than me, you know, it was one of those. So it was al contra or something like, oh, it could have been.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah, the little switch do it to pop. Yeah, but he never had the big league pop.

[David Ross]

We tried to bought. That's when it set me off.

[Anthony Rizzo]

But you would get mad at me because I would be off and I would keep my switch off. Off all the time.

[Joe Maddon]

I know.

[Anthony Rizzo]

I look at him and go, rossi. I go, I could flip the switch at any time. He's like, my switch always needs to be on.

[David Ross]

When I managed, I came in and ripped the team one day, just had an explosion, which there wasn't many of those.

[Joe Maddon]

But he.

[David Ross]

Afterwards, he came to my office, goes, I almost. I had to hold myself back from laughing. Almost video. I was like, you know, but I want to get into 15 and talk a little bit about. We have our ideas, but when did you think we were good in 15? When did. You're like, oh, these guys figured it out. Was there a moment or what? What was we feeling like? It was San Francisco. Remember us Sleep in San Francisco.

[Joe Maddon]

Four game sweep.

[David Ross]

Yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah. What was that? August.

[David Ross]

That Was late August.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

And that was also Addison at shortstop and. And starring second base.

[David Ross]

KB had just.

[Joe Maddon]

Oh, first question.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Sorry, I gotta hit. This is a good one. Did you. How hard did you fight for KV KB to break camp with us in 15? Or did you at all?

[Joe Maddon]

I didn't.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Did you have.

[Joe Maddon]

There was no. There was nothing I could do because it's all about the rules. I mean, they could deny it as much as they want, but it's all about the rules. There's nothing you could do about that. Not a thing.

[David Ross]

He was going off perfectly.

[Joe Maddon]

It happened with Longoria here when I was with the race. Longo went down for a couple weeks, then came up and tore it up. Yeah, KB was down, came up and tore it up. It's not.

[David Ross]

You just know that.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah, it's nobody's fault. It's just the rules of the game. That's all that was.

[Anthony Rizzo]

So there's nothing to fight division by what, two games?

[Joe Maddon]

It's like, yeah, those are for sure. But there's. There's nothing to fight. As a manager, there's nothing I could have done as. As. Okay. As a Gene Mock manager. That would have never happened. As a Earl Weaver, that would have never happened. I don't even know if the Roses.

[David Ross]

The managers had control.

[Joe Maddon]

Oh, my God.

[David Ross]

Yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

Everybody, I mean, everybody was afraid to come into your clubhouse. The gm, the assistant gm, anybody else that worked upstairs was afraid to come in a big league clubhouse. It was that daunting.

[Anthony Rizzo]

I love that.

[Joe Maddon]

I'm not. That is not an exaggeration. That is exactly the truth.

[Anthony Rizzo]

If the players take over the right

[David Ross]

way, I think the good GMs are the ones that are in there every day, but in a positive way. Right. Like given. Given, given. Better. Better feedback.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah.

[David Ross]

But when did you feel like we were good?

[Anthony Rizzo]

The famous Miggy Montero.

[Joe Maddon]

We are good.

[Anthony Rizzo]

We are good.

[Joe Maddon]

When did I feel we were good? I was like, honestly, the San Francisco Series? Because I remember driving to the ballpark. We were good. Before that. I can't remember. I can't give you a specific, but we.

[David Ross]

We never. We couldn't win a bunch of row, but we didn't lose a bunch of roll. We just kind of.

[Joe Maddon]

I thought the San Francisco Series was the seminal moment because it was the Giants. And I remember driving my pickup truck down Clark on the way to the ballpark. And I'm getting myself jacked up because I thought, this is big. I mean, I never. I never apply more weight to anything, but I thought, this one's Kind of big to handle. The Giants right now could really send us on the trajectory we're looking for, and it did. So we're going there and we win the first three, and then the last game, they got the bases loaded and nobody out. We're up 3 to 2, and Rondon gets out of it. Rondon gets out of it somehow. Is that right? Right. But I thought that was a seminal moment in the year where we. After that, we knew we were good. We did. It's not about when I did. It's like when the guys know you're good. Everybody was contributing. Everybody. But our defense got tight. Our defense. I mean, with Addison there and Starling over there, everything changed defensively, which really was big at that point. But, yeah, I think for me, if I had a. Because I. I'm answering the question based on the fact I remember driving down Clark.

[David Ross]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

I mean, that's. That's pretty.

[David Ross]

Well, we all have. Our mom remember us sweeping them, and they had two championships.

[Joe Maddon]

That was the other part of it.

[David Ross]

Right. Like, and they said, all those guys, Buster and, you know, all the boys, Lincecomb and Bum Gardner, I mean, they were bloated.

[Joe Maddon]

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[David Ross]

Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

In 2015, you had to move a superstar shortstop from shortstop to second base. And he did it with.

[Joe Maddon]

He was upstanding.

[David Ross]

He was great.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Stalin, Castro was so. He was such a good leader, especially a Latin leader, which it was, like, amazing for me. He was one of my biggest mentors when I was young. But for it to be able to do that and move him off shortstop to second and him be. Feel good about it was like, I have so many. It's a story in itself.

[Joe Maddon]

I remember because we're talking right now. I'm sitting in that little manager's office and Starling sitting right over there. Right. And I'm explaining things to him. You know, I'm sure he hated it. Right. But he never. He never was disrespectful. He listened all the way through. And this is really the best part about that for me as a manager, because I think it's the way it should be. It was just me. It wasn't like a front office dude with me or anything like that. It wasn't like I wasn't being supported or the conversation didn't include other voices. It was just me and him. I think that's valuable, as it should be.

[David Ross]

No doubt.

[Joe Maddon]

The only time you bring somebody else in if you think there's going to be a fight, and the guy's pretty big but anyway, he sat there and he took it and I told him he was going to play for a couple days. I told him that because we wanted to get him used to second base and never cried or complained. You remember how well he played after that?

[David Ross]

Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

He done that from Alfonso Soriano because Soriano was such a good leader. And he. Sorry would have like, I think sorry one year, played with assistant as the entire year he wanted to play every day. Starlin taught me every day.

[Joe Maddon]

13.

[Anthony Rizzo]

I hit like 2:30. Hey, keep your head up. We play every day. You play every day. I don't care if you know, we play every day.

[Joe Maddon]

Wow.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And I learned as a young player, that's how that's valuable. That's how you earn horse utmost amount of respect.

[Joe Maddon]

When you're talking about that.

[David Ross]

Yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

You said. Some of.

[David Ross]

Some advice I've passed along that I've used a lot is like when I was managing, like, you know, I tell the guys the truth because if I lie to him, you know, like, give them that line, you know.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's not only in baseball, but anything else, if I, if I tell you the truth, you might not like me for a week or 10 days, but if I lie to you, you can hate me forever.

[David Ross]

And that's such a truth. And, and going back on a player's experience, and especially when I was coming up, it was a little bit more. They would sugarcoat some things or not to eat.

[Joe Maddon]

Right.

[David Ross]

And all you wanted to do as a man is like, just tell me where I stand.

[Joe Maddon]

Right.

[David Ross]

That then it's on me. And you did a good job with that. But that phrase I've used so much just because it's like, again, you try to have compassion with it, but I'm going to hit you with the truth, knowing I'm in your side, I'm on your side. But I'm going to just be completely honest and transparent because I think that's the best way for you to be able to deal with it and us to move forward.

[Joe Maddon]

Everybody moves forward after that. Exactly. Right. Otherwise there's always this consternation, interpretation. What does he really mean? All those stuff, all the questioning. Right. It gets dragged out. This is the sharp knife compared to the dull knife. Always use the sharp knife. Always. When it comes to a tough decision, use a sharp knife because then it has a chance to heal more quickly. The dull knife, you get a bad edge. It just, it gets. It doesn't scar properly, whatever, and eventually turns into like a scar tissue. That really never goes away. Use a sharp knife. When you use the sharp knife, like you just said, everything moves forward rather quickly after that.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Another pioneer thing was you would send the lineup out the night before.

[Joe Maddon]

Oh, yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And that was. I never heard of that.

[Joe Maddon]

I did that.

[Anthony Rizzo]

I don't know if you did. Now. It's.

[David Ross]

I hate it now.

[Anthony Rizzo]

It's almost a custom standard practice. Because if I. For me, thankfully, I played every single day, but I. I never worried about it.

[David Ross]

But.

[Anthony Rizzo]

But being a leader on the team and. And say Hap wasn't playing or short wasn't playing, you got to talk them off the ledge. And if you get to the field and they're. They see that day that they're in the line, they're not. And then they're pissed off all day.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Over 162. It just takes a little chink of the armor.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

You know, and you need all guys

[Joe Maddon]

pulling the same rope. I'll tell you how I learned that. Darren Urstadt. Do you guys know Erstein? Yeah, I know, dude. Don't mess with Erstein.

[David Ross]

He's salty. I heard.

[Joe Maddon]

I never played with him. I love that man.

[David Ross]

He reminds me a lot. Like, he's like an Utley. Like, he's gonna try to. He's going to do whatever it takes to win.

[Joe Maddon]

Correct. So with social, the manager and we didn't do that. We didn't put the lineup out the night before. So going the next day, and I'm in charge. I'm the bench coach doing all the paperwork and stuff. I got to go tell Erstie he's not in the lineup. Oh, my God. He says, why didn't you tell me last night? Because if you don't tell somebody the night before, they're not in lineup, an everyday guy, then they really don't have a day off.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Total.

[Joe Maddon]

I totally agree.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Or the night off.

[Joe Maddon]

Right. Because you go through your whole routine. You get up at the same time, you eat whatever you want to eat. You come to the ballpark the same time, so you really don't get a day off unless somebody knows they have a day off. A regular player the night before, like the utility guy. Not necessarily as much, but a regular guy really needs to know the night before for him to truly have a day off. So Erste taught me that. So I used to do that. Even before that, though. I did that instructionally. When I did instructional leagues, I used to put a week's worth of lineups out in advance so everybody knew when they were playing in instructional. You Play at different days. Obviously you're not just an everyday guy. But I wanted guys to requisition their work in a way that they could maximize their work and they knew what they had to do on a daily basis. But when I got to as an interim manager, I was that. A couple times with the Angels, I would have the lineup as they were walking out the, out the, after the night game, whatever, on the, on the door as they walked out be the next day's lineup. And that's when I started doing it. So that was in 96 I was an interim manager and 99, I was an interim manager. That's when, that's when we did that there.

[Anthony Rizzo]

I remember this. It was so good. And I'm gonna plug Corona here. Stropi Strophe was grinded for us for like in August or September. And you told him the night before, you are not pitching tomorrow. And then next day there was like a little blow up.

[Joe Maddon]

Oh yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

In his locker with a bucket of Coronas, a little umbrella, like a beach chair. And I was dying because you, you recognize that and you're like, no, you, you've grinded for us. You're, you're down, you're down and enjoy it always. For me it was like when I was down, I knew I wasn't playing

[Joe Maddon]

for the most part, right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Or I was, I turned off until like the biggest situation, right.

[Joe Maddon]

It had to be like something dire that we had to use it.

[David Ross]

But yeah, well, and front offices now, the one thing that I, I, I definitely saw as a player and tried to use as a manager, like you give your everyday player, it's not an off day if you're expecting them to pinch hit in the seventh or eighth.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Because guys now turn on trying to win.

[Joe Maddon]

Right? Right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

If you can't, if you turn on when you're an everyday player, if your mind turns on, it's not an off day.

[David Ross]

Yeah, if, yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

So when I would like, I would tell young guys, I told Anthony Volpe, he, he hurt his shoulder and he had a couple days off. I'm like, dude, just watch the game with no expectations.

[Joe Maddon]

Expectations, that's right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Be a fan of the game. Sit on the top step and like enjoy where you are. And if you have to turn on to get a pinch, it just do it. It's one at bat. Like, stay off. Because that stress, that mental stress, the value of off days are the value

[David Ross]

of the everyday player. I backed up Brian McCann in Atlanta. I was like, my one goal is not to get this guy up off the seat, you know, like that's how I get. Yeah, you take it personally. Wanted to win. Yeah, I want to win today because I know if we're winning, he doesn't pinch hit for me or horse for somebody and go in. But fast forward to the end of 15 a little bit. I think the Pittsburgh Wild card game is the most important game. It comes.

[Anthony Rizzo]

I think that was the most wild game of all.

[Joe Maddon]

Right, how about it?

[David Ross]

You let, you let Arietta go.

[Joe Maddon]

Cg, right?

[David Ross]

The nastiest pitcher on the planet by far. But that would be so taboo in today's game.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Are you kidding me?

[Joe Maddon]

Well, well, Yamamoto just did it right with the Dyers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, but let me, let me give you the history on that. You remember we were playing Minnesota in Minnesota and Jake pitched a nine inning complete game shutout. I think it was a four hitter. It might have been a 24 hitter, whatever, but we won eight nothing. So I got a lot of crap because I did not pull him out. When we started leading eight nothing in that game we were at was a closer game, I think seventh or eighth inning, we scored several runs and it eventually made it 8 nothing going into the 9th inning. I think he had like right around 110 pitch pitches, easy to pull them at that point. The thing that I learned as a minor league coach, I thought, instructor, when a dude walks off the mountain with a complete game shutout changes him, changes them. And I thought, and I thought within, within limits, let him go back out there. I think he ended up with nine innings, 122, 123, 124 shut out, and very limited number of hits with a boatload of confidence. That's it. I mean, a mind wants another one. A mind once stretched has a difficult time going back to its original form. So then once you stretch your mind to nine innings, and I like this, it's a drug. I want to do this all the time. I got a lot of crap from the front office, quite frankly, about that.

[Anthony Rizzo]

I love that.

[Joe Maddon]

Why didn't you pull them after I gave him the exact reason, I'm telling you right now. I can remember Colin Charlin pitching a complete game in Palm Springs and whatever the year that was on the roving instructor, David Holdridge, same thing. Guys you've never heard about. But it definitely enhanced their, their minor league careers at that point. But so when he gets to the playoff game in Pittsburgh, Jake's done that before. Why do I want to go?

[Anthony Rizzo]

No doubt in his mind he's tweeting he's tweeting. I don't know if you saw those, like, there. Because Pittsburgh was loud. I mean, that place when Adi made the air and there was bases loaded. I couldn't even. I couldn't hear myself breathe there. I mean, it was loud and they were. They were nasty.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah. Pennsylvania. All black.

[Anthony Rizzo]

The whole stadium was black.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah, right, right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And he's tweeting before. It doesn't matter. It does. And he just goes out there. They try to hit him. Tony Watson.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

A little bench and clear, right?

[Joe Maddon]

That's right. That.

[Anthony Rizzo]

That, too, was another. That celebration after that was like two hours.

[David Ross]

Oh, my God. I remember the.

[Anthony Rizzo]

The.

[David Ross]

The floor. Yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

Like, that clubhouse was ruined.

[David Ross]

That was epic.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And then we beat the Cardinals, who were the golden standard of.

[Joe Maddon]

That's right. That was a big one.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Right.

[Joe Maddon]

That we had to take it from. That's it. You have to take it.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Yes.

[Joe Maddon]

Take it from them.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And we did.

[Joe Maddon]

Because.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Beat our ass. That's right. I said this to us at the

[Joe Maddon]

beginning of the year.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

The games we lost in St. Louis,

[Anthony Rizzo]

we didn't know how to win yet.

[Joe Maddon]

That's right. That's correct.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Because we were. We're winning. And then they came back and it was like these.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah, exactly.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And then I take the ball back. I said, I remember the. The coaches used to always come over to the. The weight room. Hey, Riz, what's up, man? How are you?

[Joe Maddon]

Oh, the Cardinal coaches.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Yeah. We started beating them.

[Joe Maddon]

They never saw that. Isn't that a beautiful thing?

[Anthony Rizzo]

Keep that respect.

[Joe Maddon]

That's right. Exactly right. But I remember the game in Pittsburgh. My God. But it was one of the more. We play some almost perfect games. Like in 16 against the Dodgers, when the clincher against the Dodgers, Kyle Hendricks. Yeah.

[David Ross]

Yep.

[Joe Maddon]

That's like almost a perfect game. That was like a perfect baseball game. But that game in Pittsburgh, that really did put us in a different stratosphere.

[David Ross]

Yeah, totally.

[Joe Maddon]

Absolutely.

[David Ross]

I remember how loud it got. We made one error in. That base is loaded.

[Joe Maddon]

Remember that?

[Anthony Rizzo]

That's what I'm saying. That double.

[Joe Maddon]

That's a double play.

[David Ross]

And you were like, wow.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Oh, I. I was seeing stars. I never. That was my first time in the playoffs. First game, I'm like, what?

[David Ross]

That's amazing.

[Anthony Rizzo]

So in 2015, we beat the Cardinals.

[Joe Maddon]

Right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

We were on to the Mets. I'm fully convinced we're winning the World Series. That's. That's first time winning our chemistry. And we run into the buzzsaw of that gauntlet of A pitching staff, right. We get swept. Heartbreak. Did everything we could. The magician, I think Jack Hammer.

[Joe Maddon]

Magician was great.

[David Ross]

Hammer.

[Anthony Rizzo]

But like, we left that feeling like I was heartbroken. We come into 16 and it was like we were already the World Series champions. It. I felt that. I don't know if anyone else. I feel like everyone. That was the way it was the best camp I've ever had. All the skits. Met my wife. Thank you.

[Joe Maddon]

That's right. That's right. But in the back of it, that's

[David Ross]

a whole nother show.

[Joe Maddon]

The back of a van. Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

But it was just. Everything was like so in flow, right. Guys were doing their job. We knew what it took. We were determined, we were hungry. And we go into that season, we get off to this insane start, right? What the third game, fourth game, Schwarber goes down. Yeah. Huge blow. Like. Yeah. Devastating. Because he was a dog.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And he was one of our guys. And as early as Lackey's first start, the Diamondbacks put up what, five or six runs off him in the first. And we just boat raced them.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah, exactly.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And it was like, we can't be beat. It was insane that. That start to that season.

[David Ross]

But that's where. That's where Embrace the target came in. I thought like, like, you know, you. You had to kind of marinate over that all off season. And there's so many things that came from that that I still. That are kind of in my soul as a. As a baseball guy. It's like, you know, having the target

[Joe Maddon]

on your back is a good thing.

[David Ross]

And, you know, just know we're not perfect. Right. Like it's. And. And process and the things that. That built us as a championship team with the hunger of getting so close and losing the year before. The process is fearless, constantly reduced. Like the things that you had on the Embrace the target shirt in spring training, like all that's a culmination of the culture we talked about earlier. Going into a team that had a lot of young guys, but a lot of expectations.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah, that's kind of interesting, man, because that all happened, that started in the winter meetings after the 2015 season. Might have been in San Diego. I'm not sure where the winter meetings were at the time. However, you remember the manager gaggle. Everybody gets in front of the manager and they start firing questions. Now we have not won anything since. Since 1908.

[Anthony Rizzo]

108 years.

[Joe Maddon]

And all of a sudden now you're being picked to win the World Series. Right. How does that happen? So I remember we're there, and I'm getting all this stuff fired at me. And I did not ruminate. I didn't think about this at all. But all of a sudden, I just said, we just need to embrace the target. That's how it came out. I was being pressed against the wall. Hey, we just got to embrace the target. And then from that, all this other stuff flowed out of that. That's exactly what happened. And. But I do. I've always had the mindset. I like the word pressure a lot. I like the word expectations a lot. Not a little bit, a lot. Because whatever you're doing, if you do not have pressure and expectations applied to it, why do it? I mean, what is. What am I doing here? Even if you play golf, you want at least a quarter. You know, you said that in spring training.

[David Ross]

You said, guys, the expectations are a good thing. Like, think about that. You said that in our little. We're out there on those stretch feet.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's a good thing. And I think too many times people run away from those words and they see them as being a negative or ominous, and I honestly believe it's completely the opposite. Think about it. You just talked about the most disappointing time you ever had was after the 2015 season, and that totally raised your level of expectation the next year. And you ran right toward that. That whole thing, that whole shirt that I built up on that. That took me some time. That was done on my iPad. And I wanted. I don't know why, but I do things like that once in a while. How could I make the point? Started with, like, nine equals eight here with the Rays.

[David Ross]

Right.

[Joe Maddon]

In 2008, I did that. Even, like in 1986 or seven, I had a shirt for the boys in minor league camp. Every day counts. So that's where it began.

[David Ross]

This one had together, and then after that, it was nine is one.

[Joe Maddon]

That's right. That's right, that's right. That's right.

[David Ross]

I still got two.

[Joe Maddon]

That was. That was from. That was from. That line was from. From Ken Revizza. Because I always showed all my stuff to Kenny.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

So Kenny. I was living in Long beach, too, and Kenny was right down the street. I would run all my stuff by the dirt bags before I said. Kenny would set up a meeting. I'd go into the clubhouse, the locker room with Long Beach State, and I would run my spring training stuff by these guys just to practice a little prep. That's it. And then Kenny would always. Kenny didn't like the process. As fearless he didn't get it at first. We argued about that. And I was just trying to tell them the process lacks emotion. It's great if you stick to the process. You could do anything because you just stay with this, this, this, and this. And I don't feel anxiety, emotion, eagerness. I don't feel any of that. I just. I stick with the process. So that was that part of it. And then, you know, the parts. The little ancillary things on the outside of it, you know, just keeping yourself together. There's something there about Coach Walsh with the 49ers. Was in there a guy by the name of Welch with GE Change before. You have to. I think all these different things are involved in that. All the things I thought, you know, I just tried to encompass it in this big circle with an arrow through. That was the target. That was like that weird little arrow. But anyway, that was me on an iPad, trying to make sense, because how do I sell this to the team? That was always my thing. All this different things I did in spring training with those meetings, I wanted to make it interesting for you guys, and I wanted to get the point across. I want something to hold your attention and even right down to the paintings that occurred later. And also, those paintings were for me, hopefully, to attract young fans, like kids that really aren't at the baseball. That's kind of a cool painting. So all these things had a purpose, of course, and respect.

[David Ross]

90 glasses.

[Joe Maddon]

I love those shirts. Mind. Yeah, that was. That was everything. Everything had a purpose that I was doing. And it was a lot of pressure on me, in a good way, because I didn't want to disappoint. I had. I. I had to try to outdo myself every year. That's the way I looked at it. That was my. That was my edict to myself. Do better than you did last year. That was it. And that's what I try to do.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Well, you certainly didn't disappoint, because you are the greatest second to Frank Chance.

[Joe Maddon]

But, yeah, Frank's got me.

[Anthony Rizzo]

He had two of them.

[Joe Maddon]

He had two of them.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Yeah. Yeah.

[David Ross]

Well, we've got two rings.

[Joe Maddon]

We can't speak for everybody, but that's right. We do have two rings.

[Anthony Rizzo]

We. We boat race all year. We had a little blimp before the All Star break, which was virtually nothing in the grand scheme of how. I remember you saying, though, this is what happens when you get off to such a good start. You have room for error.

[Joe Maddon]

That's right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And then we kind of went on cruise control. And then in September, I feel like the team ramped it back up.

[Joe Maddon]

Right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And our first, our, Our playoff journey was not easy. We have the even year of the Giants, which is a real. Was a real thing. And thank God we came back in Game 4 because we did not want to see Cueto again. That's in game five, Right?

[Joe Maddon]

Right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And a lot happened in that series. Then we go nlcs where we were talking about the move that you went in with. You pinch it Almora, and then they brought in Blanton, and then you pinch it Miggy, knowing that Miggy just got a cortisone shot. Right. Did you know that?

[Joe Maddon]

I did not know that.

[Anthony Rizzo]

No. Thank God.

[Joe Maddon]

Probably right. Thank God you didn't know would have mattered.

[David Ross]

I remember seeing that, that, that to me was like one of the, like the, the chess played there. You know, there's things as a player every once in a while, I was like, wow, our managers manage his ass off.

[Joe Maddon]

What? Did you know who we pinch it for originally with Elmora?

[Anthony Rizzo]

Do you? Yeah, of course you do.

[Joe Maddon]

Araldis Chapman. Really? So he brought Chappie in earlier in that game, and he was holding everything down, and I moved them. I double switched to the point. I double switched to the point where I thought he'd never come up. And then he came up and the frigging bases are loaded. So I'm not going to let Chappie hit right there. So I took a shot. And then. Yes, you have to know in advance that if I send the right. We did the same thing against the Giants when we beat him in that fourth game. But anyway, you got to know, if they do this, we're going to do that. Now, Bland, if you remember, was also kind of a reverse split guy. He had this, that cutter slider that came in on the lefties, and he gets to an 02 count. And that might be one of the loudest home runs that, I mean, off the bat that I think I've ever heard.

[David Ross]

I remember, I, I looking back, I remember Miggy on so much off speed late in the year, whether he would like, you know, I just remember that vividly. When he hit that home run, I'm like, this slider is going to go right into his. You know, you have thoughts. It did freaking. He crushed that ball.

[Joe Maddon]

It was so loud. But yeah, that was so. I mean, listen, I'm debating because you, like I said, you double switch them. I think we move them eight hitters away from who our lead up here was going to be. So I thought that's that's, that's safe. We should be able to score some runs by then. Then I could actually leave him in if we get to that point. But sometimes the math doesn't work out and that's exactly what happened. And that's because I did not want to take a Rallis out of the game. But we had to do it at that point. And then you have to rely on the other dudes. But that was a big moment. And, and as well as saying game four against the Giants, to me that was the World Series.

[Anthony Rizzo]

How hard is it looking back now when you're in that moment? You know, the double switches in the National League were a mastermind of their own.

[Joe Maddon]

Dude, it was so good.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Or was it just because you love. I remember when you came over, I love the National League.

[Joe Maddon]

It was much better.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Manage more.

[Joe Maddon]

That's right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

So. But you're in that moment with NLCS where 108 years where we win that series, we're going to the World Series. I've been there in what, 60 plus years. Making those decisions in the heat of the moment is, cannot be easy.

[Joe Maddon]

Well, it's not easy, but you think about them in advance. I mean, that's the whole thing. I mean I, like I said, I knew he moved the mate spots and then, okay, I wasn't worried about it until I had to start worrying about it. And then you have to start playing it all the way out and then it was like, who's going to be the pinch hitter if in fact we're going to do that. So that was the beauty of the National League. And everybody pooh poos that. I'm here to tell you, man, anybody that says it's just like a double, switch your butt. I mean there's so many things that go on. I mean there's times Davey really helped me out because sometimes I would do some things that required a lot of movement and I get lost sometimes Davey. And Davey would like help me out with putting it back together because when you start doing all the things we did, like moving guys pitchers to the outfield in the back and things like that, it can get kind of confusing sometimes.

[David Ross]

Yeah, I'm glad they took it out.

[Joe Maddon]

But here's the thing though. I loved it because I felt we could have an advantage because if I know what I'm doing with that, then that works as an advantage for us versus the group. That's not, not as bold, you know, doing something. You got to be bold to do those things. And again, if you're Losing sky's the limit. Do whatever you want. If you're tired or winning, it becomes more difficult in that situation. We were up by a run.

[David Ross]

Yeah, that's difficult. Take your clothes off.

[Joe Maddon]

That's right. That's right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

When we got Chapman at that deadline, it was like just another shot of confidence. I've been on teams for. For 13, 14 years. There was one time at the deadline that I felt like as a player, we won the deadline, and that was 2016.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

We traded for Chappie. We went out and got the best reliever on the market to solidify already a really deep back end. And it was like, holy.

[David Ross]

And I felt the same way. The only other time I felt that way was 2013. The Red Sox, we won, and they went out and got Jake Peavey, who at the time was the best starter that, you know when you're front office. Yeah, implants, like, we know what you need and we're going to go get it for you. That's another part of, like, I think wedding organizations that just goes unnoticed a lot of the times, because people play the long game. In a safe game, you only have so often.

[Joe Maddon]

Right.

[David Ross]

You only have so often to go for it.

[Joe Maddon]

It's all about the long game anymore, man. I don't even know. It's like everybody's got a four or five year plan and nobody ever wins. I mean, I don't get it.

[David Ross]

Yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

I don't understand all that stuff. I mean, I understand what they're doing, but I don't understand why they do it. Yeah, Theo made it. They made a great move on that one. We don't. We don't do that without her all the time. We could not have done that without her.

[Anthony Rizzo]

How much we relata.

[Joe Maddon]

And I mean, listen, I, you know, if you remember at that time, I think Stropey got hurt right at the end of that season. That when he. No, that's. That when he hurt his knee. He did hurt his knee or something. Third base coming third base. He did something right, so. And Stropey was out of the mix a little bit. Hector was like, not as good because he would have been impacted by Chapman being there.

[David Ross]

Well, I thought we. I thought that's the one thing that you look back on, and, you know, we got Chappie and then kind of some of our horses that had driven us got kind of sidelined and. And from a manager's perspective, like, I think I leaned a lot into veterans, like safety for veterans for me. But you really did a nice job. Of like Montgomery and C.J. edwards and like these guys. Remember that though, getting out of that bases loaded jam.

[Joe Maddon]

Y.

[David Ross]

What, what is that when you see that? Is that that your gut? That your. Your eyes? You're right eyes.

[Joe Maddon]

I think for me, I think it's my eyeballs. And listen, I, I'm so grateful, like I said, or I think I said it earlier, that it took me so long to become a major league manager. I scout it for a long time and I still consider, I still consider the most important thing I've ever done in order to become a big league manager successfully would be to have been a scout. Because I think I could see talent before talent becomes talent sometimes. So Carl Edwards, I mean, my God, I mean, love that boy. Yeah. Devastating. And then, I mean, how about Montgomery? I mean, and I didn't realize it at the time, but of course Bors, he did the last out of the World Series. Martinez was hitting like 110 against left handed curveballs. So he's just feeding Miggy curveball.

[Anthony Rizzo]

How about Bors, he having that info? Having that info.

[Joe Maddon]

Right, Exactly.

[Anthony Rizzo]

It's their 25th man that had not seen one at bat or any. And we know that that's what he did.

[David Ross]

That's what our.

[Joe Maddon]

That's what I'm saying.

[David Ross]

Guys were prepared. You're talking about process and preparation like, like everybody was on board doing their job at that moment. And so you have, you have that. I thought it was genius too because Raji was going to steal that bag.

[Joe Maddon]

I couldn't believe he didn't go.

[David Ross]

I couldn't believe. I was like, he's going, right?

[Joe Maddon]

I for very first pitch I thought he was gone.

[David Ross]

I think the lefty scared him a little bit.

[Joe Maddon]

You're right.

[David Ross]

Just held him a little bit.

[Joe Maddon]

He's a little bit harder.

[David Ross]

So like probably something that you don't equate for actually helps out. Because I'm thinking, well, you bring him in before that I was like, well, Raji's fixing Steve. You.

[Joe Maddon]

That's right.

[David Ross]

You know, he's a second now. Base hit ties it up.

[Anthony Rizzo]

CJ wasn't good at holding runners on either.

[Joe Maddon]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Anthony Rizzo]

What was your process like? What are you telling your staff going into the World Series where all this pressure. 180. It's real, right?

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

We did a great job at quieting it, but you're the lead bull with, with your coaches. Is it business as usual? Is it.

[Joe Maddon]

Don't change a thing. Don't change your thing. No more meetings. Don't get Try to get smarter. Just do what we've been doing all year. I think that's the trap. Teams that try to get smarter, add more information, more scattering reports, more people in the clubhouse, more data analysts coming downstairs to try to help you out. I ran into it with the late 1990 angels, which we didn't. Never really got anywhere. We get close to the playoffs at the end of the year, and all of a sudden everybody. The scouting reports would get bigger, giving guys more information, more people around. Oh, my God. It's like, are you kidding me? It's the exact opposite.

[David Ross]

Sure.

[Joe Maddon]

It's less info. It's less people around. It's. It's status quo as much as you possibly can reduce.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Remember, I didn't take VP one time.

[Joe Maddon]

There you go.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Because I didn't want to go out to the soap opera.

[Joe Maddon]

That's. That's fine.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Me and KB and I think Dex, too, we just stayed in. You guys did all right, but that's because of. Yeah, you're back and you're afraid. We had that level of confidence that we can do that. There's a lot of guys that feel like they have to go and do it.

[Joe Maddon]

See, that's just. That's. That's the classic cover my ass situation. That is. Has nothing to do with anything, you know, or believe. That's covering my butt. That's all that is. All this choreography before the games is also a cover my butt situation. I want. Listen, if somebody needs extra work, I'm there. I'll be the first guy out there. I want them out there. But if you don't necessarily need early work or don't need it every day, an athlete that is both mentally and physically not tired is much better than all this different work that you want to put out there that you're going to get mentally or physically exhausted. They don't realize people that really haven't done it. You can't hold that many thoughts. You can't hold that many thoughts.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Too simple.

[Joe Maddon]

Better, right? I don't want you holding that many thoughts. I can't hold that many thoughts. Although I will say this, and I've always said this, you could inundate the staff with as much intel as you possibly want. But then it's up to the staff to give you the nuggets that we think are necessary. Like Borsi. Borsi's better than any analytical staff there is to prepare a game plan on any nightly basis.

[Anthony Rizzo]

I used to have Borsi after every year, Mike Borzales start catching Break me down fully. What I wasn't. Because it's so hard as everyday player to realize where you're missing One year. One year. Freddie Freeman told me, he was like, hey, we don't play you the rest of this year, and I don't think we're going to see each other in the playoffs. And he goes, you're not swinging at first pitch, breaking balls. And I'm like, what? I didn't know that I get traded. It's 20, 21. I get traded in the playoffs that year. First pitch, breaking ball from Ivaldi. I'm aware of this now. Homer and the wild card deal with the Yankees.

[David Ross]

Information is powerful.

[Anthony Rizzo]

It is crazy, but sometimes you just don't know. And then, of course, when you have people that you trust that tell you these things, but if you don't trust them and they tell you these things, you're like, yeah, that's right. Get out of here.

[Joe Maddon]

It's not. It's useless at that point.

[David Ross]

Game seven.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Should we start. Start talking? If you want to. I do want to start talking. World Series. Yeah. How special was that?

[Joe Maddon]

My God. Yeah.

[David Ross]

You had been through before with the Rays.

[Joe Maddon]

I did with the Rays and the Angels. So we went with the Angels in 2002. But I was the bench coach managing the Rays as a manager. And that was. Think about it, that team, I think, won 70 games the year before. You know, 70. I think we won maybe 16. I don't even know. But then you go, and you. We didn't win the division. We were the wild card team. But then you end up playing the Phillies in the World Series. We beat the Red Sox. Yeah.

[David Ross]

I was on that Red Sox.

[Joe Maddon]

You remember the ground ball? I mean, all we were up three to one in that. And you guys came back.

[Anthony Rizzo]

I was at those games. That was 08.

[David Ross]

We talked about that first time we met and we had the same age.

[Anthony Rizzo]

I was going through my.

[David Ross]

I left him tickets. Young buck.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

Left him tickets.

[Anthony Rizzo]

I was with the Red Sox, though, so I was happy. They won game six. But we're there.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And we are down three, one.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And I was like, no, this ain't happening. Because last year we were down 3. 0. And it was like our win was out of the sales.

[Joe Maddon]

Right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

This year we were.

[Joe Maddon]

We.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Last year we went in and like, we were talking and all this stuff and what we believed in the clubhouse. We do. If we just won game five.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Right. Because that was a gauntlet of a game.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

At Wrigley. What was your take on I had

[Joe Maddon]

a pizza party that night. My kids were in town. I bought. Had pizza up at the. I was living right off Lakeshore. We had a big room downstairs. I rented. I don't know if I rented. We just got it all. My kids were there. A bunch of. My mom was there. Pizza party. I really felt good. I felt our pitching was lined up properly for the games in Cleveland. I did. I never lost faith. Absolutely not. That was Halloween. I wore a Halloween outfit on the bus. It was like a suit with a bunch of daggers and went trick or treating. You remember when you had a plane. That's right. That's right. I wanted to try to keep it as normal as you possibly can. That's. That's always been my method. When you. When you. When you. When you stop being. Get it normal or outside your normal paths, that's what people's. I tend to go up. So my. My main objective is always to keep it as real as we possibly can. But I never. I never lost faith. I never did. I, I. Arietta and Kyle. I felt good.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Sure, I felt good.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Lester, Game five, too.

[Joe Maddon]

That was my wonder.

[David Ross]

Game five.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Chapman came in, I think, in my, like, the seventh.

[Joe Maddon]

There was no. What else do you do? Yeah, there's no game six, so that

[Anthony Rizzo]

was the one thing. I think the only thing I ever questioned was leaving him in to go out in the ninth in game six.

[Joe Maddon]

You're right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

I just hit the homer.

[Joe Maddon]

That's right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And I remember the dugout like, can we get Travis Wood in? Like.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And he went back out. I think he gave him.

[David Ross]

Trying to get people

[Anthony Rizzo]

straight pictures. And then you took him out that. I think that was the only time because as a player, I would always. I would always ask you questions because I wanted to know, like. And I felt like I knew you perfectly.

[Joe Maddon]

No, you're right. I mean, I was. I was torn on that one. I already had talked to, I think, Boz about getting somebody else up in case something happened. We scored a bunch of runs. It was in my head. Problem with me was that I'd been burned in Cleveland in the past, in that particular ballpark. I had been. I mean, just with the Angels, I think we were leading like 9 to 1 or 9 to 2, either the 8th or 9th inning with Percival in the game and lost the game. So it's just stupid stuff like that. Yeah, it worked out, but. It worked out. But there's no game. There's no game seven if you don't win game six. That kind of a thing also so it's. I can't defend my choice right there. It worked out fine. But I knew watching Chappie throw to the first hitter. Get him out. Get him out. He was like, he was pissed. He was. No, he was pissed too. I thought he was.

[Anthony Rizzo]

I think we were up seven or eight.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah. Six or. Yeah, it was like.

[David Ross]

It was that two run homer. Separated, right?

[Joe Maddon]

That was a separated, right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

It's not about me.

[Joe Maddon]

But, but, but.

[David Ross]

No but even game six.

[Joe Maddon]

But the point was I bought him in because Lindor was hitting and we got out of a big situation with Lindor in that game. And again, if you don't win that, you don't. You don't play Game 7 so well.

[David Ross]

And we. I talked about going back to the little bit that I got to manage. And like you get burned from a game, you know, like those games that somebody comes back.

[Joe Maddon]

My memory's too good.

[David Ross]

It sticks. It sticks. No doubt. Front officers use time out of time. It's like, yeah, this manager was burned because of this or that. Like, they start telling stories about. Because you get like you think it. You can't take any for granted. And then the World Series is going to be. No, I want the guy out there throwing 100. I don't care how much we're up.

[Joe Maddon]

I know that was. That's the one thing I agree. And I've actually said that publicly. That that's the one thing that I knew was wrong. I did it and then. But we rectified it because he needed to pitch the next day, obviously.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Yeah. And game seven. Did we do a shot before game seven? Did the whole staff? Did everyone.

[Joe Maddon]

I think we did. Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Yeah. So we all pre game.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah. Right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Do our shot.

[Joe Maddon]

Right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Toast. It's last game of the season.

[Joe Maddon]

Right.

[David Ross]

Well, that.

[Anthony Rizzo]

You guys.

[David Ross]

You told me.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

So you guys had a good conversation.

[David Ross]

Yeah, Great conversation.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah. About the. What happened.

[David Ross]

Your plan was. It's like you'd never. Never really. I hadn't been in your office much all year and you know, you're always kind of down. You. You keep things so close to the vest as far as like really what you're going to do in a game. And you told me, hey, you're coming in with Johnny. I don't know when the next. The next day.

[Joe Maddon]

That's right.

[David Ross]

And then remember going down the bullpen and how crazy that was. And then I came in early not knowing what's going on.

[Joe Maddon]

We had a.

[David Ross]

Me, you and Boz had that conversation about how's he look? And I Remember saying, I like he looks great, but I don't know how many bullets he's got. Right, Exactly. He was firing.

[Joe Maddon]

I've never seen John you said is as good as. You've seen him throw the baseball, something. Yeah, he was.

[David Ross]

He was. He was.

[Anthony Rizzo]

He just wanted to go in the game.

[Joe Maddon]

That's what it was. Right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

My last game ever.

[Joe Maddon]

And I didn't even consider that.

[David Ross]

Right, right.

[Joe Maddon]

And I should have. But no, that's what you told me. You told me how good he was.

[David Ross]

Yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

And I trusted.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And you trust your players.

[Joe Maddon]

That's the beauty.

[David Ross]

But that we talked earlier, like, you adjusted, just you. You didn't go in your office with an idea and you not go. I love it.

[Joe Maddon]

You know what I mean?

[David Ross]

I love it.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Let's do it every time.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah, Right? Yeah, Yeah.

[David Ross]

I mean, Lester taking me out of the game. He told the story about you, you guys taking me out of.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah, exactly.

[David Ross]

He just came to your office like, I love it. Let's do it.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah, exactly. Because I was not thinking about that. Yeah, no, that was all John. That was Johnny.

[David Ross]

Yeah, he told me that. That's like super cool.

[Anthony Rizzo]

But I remember when you took Kyle out. I never. Kyle's stoic, right?

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Zen master.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

He had his glove in his mouth. I was pitching around him because he. He pitched around walk Santana face Kipnis, because he kind of owned. He thought he owned Kipnis.

[Joe Maddon]

Okay.

[David Ross]

And we loved the Kipnis matchup. I remember talking about.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And that was the first time I ever heard emotion from Hendrix. And now looking back with experience 10 years later, it's like, if. If Hendrix knew that you may have pulled him, he would have pitched to Santana differently. Differently. Because it was like, oh, if I don't get him out, then he starts maybe pitching a little scared. Right? So it's maybe in the moment, you're like, no, he should have pitched to Kipnis. Right. But it's like all these things that pitchers. When pitchers get that 100 pitch mark now.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

They're pitched differently. Because if I don't get this guy, if they're going batter to batter. So you look back on it with more wisdom and it's like, thank God he didn't know that he was on a pitch.

[Joe Maddon]

The whole thing was precipitated not by Kipnis, but it was by Lindor. Because we talked about Johnny and not bringing Johnny to a dirty inning. I did not consider Santana on first base, only with 2 ounces of dirty inning. I just didn't that was not my interpretation of that. But if Kipnis gets on and Santana's on, that's two guys on with two outs and that is dirty. And that I did not want to bring Johnny into that. That. So it was almost like I mentally. My hand was forced to do when I did, when I did it because I did not want to have Johnny on that out there with multiple runners. And I liked a lot the Kipnis Johnny relationship. Johnny had warmed up. That was the second time warming up already. So he would have sat down if we did not use him there. He warmed up the third time to bring him out in the game. Yeah. And at that point it worked out

[Anthony Rizzo]

if he would have made a good throw. Well, he almost killed.

[David Ross]

There was a swing and bot and the defensive guy may have shot down his leg. No, but no, I mean, I'm talking about. I like I'm not in there for my bat. I'm in there with Johnny to.

[Joe Maddon]

But you hit the big home run.

[David Ross]

I did.

[Joe Maddon]

Well, yeah. Yeah. It's not about you though.

[David Ross]

It's not about me. It's not about me. But no, I mean it was a swinging bump from fitness. We had him O2 and I threw it away. And then Johnny knows. I remember the scout report talking about Borsy, no strike. Breaking balls to Lindor. So he shakes to breaking ball. Throws like a 30 footer. It's on my mask. I trip over my leg, you know, two run score.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Right.

[Joe Maddon]

Wait a minute. What happened?

[David Ross]

I just got in the game. We just let two back in. I was. It was. It was nuts. But.

[Joe Maddon]

So that's what people don't understand though.

[Anthony Rizzo]

My.

[Joe Maddon]

The move was made on the not dirty inning. If. If Kyle doesn't get out Kipnis then now it is bad. But I do want a lefty on Lindor.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

I want him hitting right handed. So there's a lot going on right there.

[David Ross]

And Johnny up a third. That's the other thing we talked about. He's firing bullets and been up twice. I probably can't get him back up.

[Joe Maddon]

And that's another thing. It's all. It's very. That's. That's a really difficult jigsaw. And believe me, I'm thinking all this stuff in that nanosecond. It's not like, oh, totally, you have to.

[David Ross]

As a manager.

[Joe Maddon]

It was, it was all going on now. We had already warmed up Montgomery earlier in the game a little bit, I think early on. Because if you remember, Kyle was being hit around a little bit earlier. Before that and some hard contact. But then again, if you bring Kyle in that particular situation, I mean, Montgomery Mikey, then Mikey doesn't get the last out of the game. I mean, it's just like the world. The world, yeah, it's just how the world played out. So I'm not a revisionist historian. How it happened is how it happened. That was real. So we could. You could do all the what ifs and how abouts and whatever. Exactly. I can't buy stuff. Right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

I say this with all due respect, so I can say whatever I want, right?

[Joe Maddon]

That's right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

The fact that. The fact that three days after we win the World Series and the media is like, why would we do that? We just broke 108 year curse. Had a parade of a billion people, 5 million plus people, and there's articles being written saying, joe should have did this. Right. Go, get the fuck out of here. Excuse my language.

[Joe Maddon]

Well, no, not only that. I mean, that's what's done all the time now, right? I mean, that would have been like normal standard procedure to get Kyle out in the fifth inning. Seeing Kipnis for the third time, that would have been like. Because he.

[Anthony Rizzo]

No one's even questioning.

[Joe Maddon]

Exactly, exactly.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Right.

[David Ross]

Going into that season, Kyle was like, third time through, got hit a little bit harder.

[Joe Maddon]

Remember that?

[David Ross]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

But it was only based on what I'm telling you. It was just on the fact that if Kipnis gets on and I want Johnny Ellendur, that would have been the dirty thing. I was not looking for. That was so. I was trying to get ahead of that moment.

[David Ross]

Makes sense.

[Joe Maddon]

And Kipnis with Johnny, it was a really good matchup and we got what we're looking for. It's just a tough play. That ball rolled out farther than you thought. That's what I saw.

[David Ross]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[Joe Maddon]

It kept going. It kept going away from you Kipis all fucking.

[Anthony Rizzo]

He's a. He's a brick ass.

[David Ross]

Well, I rushed to throw and I. My hammy grabbed me a little bit

[Joe Maddon]

when I busted up out of there. I should stretch a little more.

[Anthony Rizzo]

What about when Raje hits the homer?

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

What. What are you thinking?

[Joe Maddon]

I said to Davey, I said, who's up first next inning? That's the first thing I said. You went straight into his next inning, Right? Who's up first next inning. That's it. I mean, I thought that. And then the. The more difficult part was who to send out in the ninth inning. We sent out.

[Anthony Rizzo]

You sent Chappie.

[Joe Maddon]

Right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

The fact that Chappie Got through the ninth.

[Joe Maddon]

Yes. Amazing is like. Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Its own. How many times have you seen a closer blow it in the eighth?

[David Ross]

I don't think Miggy gets enough credit.

[Joe Maddon]

I agree with you all. Breaking 100.

[David Ross]

Right. Like, back on. I was calling all heaters because I hadn't catch Chappie that much.

[Joe Maddon]

Right. We would. We would.

[David Ross]

He would come in with Miggy or Contreras. And so I was like, you were catching scared, maybe. Well, I was. I knew the scout said no sliders, and then I didn't know the splitting wasn't really a factor that year, so I just kept like, oh, it's 100. He'll pop it up. And I did. It just went further than I.

[Joe Maddon]

We just threw it down into his bathroom.

[David Ross]

Yeah. I remember looking he.

[Anthony Rizzo]

He's.

[David Ross]

She was choked up on the back,

[Joe Maddon]

like, the length of Corona bottle. Exactly.

[David Ross]

Yeah. A little plug there.

[Anthony Rizzo]

So Raja hits the home run. I'm at first saying, this. This curse is real.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Like plain dirt. I'm numb. My full body numb. Yeah. And you're going, who's up first next? That is like.

[Joe Maddon]

That's what I said today. Asked David that immediately.

[David Ross]

I. I never. I move the. I turn the page a lot as a catcher that I just remember. I kept going back to. God dang it. Like, really, like, you know, like, it took me a minute to turn a page on.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Like, you hit the home run. Rain delay. Right. We're in there. Chappie just got traded. He's like a. He's instantly one of our brothers. Y. He's in there with tears in his eyes. Right. Feels so bad because. And it's like, how can you feel bad, dude?

[Joe Maddon]

You.

[Anthony Rizzo]

You've thrown 40 innings this postseason, right? Horse. And then comes out later with your story with your dad's hat.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And was that a moment that just came out of nowhere for you?

[Joe Maddon]

Walk us through that. It's twice I've done that. My dad was in the dugout for the 2002 and World Series for the Angels also.

[David Ross]

Wow. Wow.

[Joe Maddon]

My dad passed in 2002, so he died in April 15, 2002. So were the Angels in the World Series in 2002? I had his hat in my backpack, which I took. Ballpark. So I ran upstairs in that game against the Giants, and I brought it down. I used to have that little table set up in Anaheim Stadium in the corner there. And I put the hat underneath my books, looking out at the field. So he's been to two World Series victories. So that time in Cleveland, I Went up there and I said, screw it. I put it in the back of my pants, like where your belt is. I stuffed it down in there so I thought nobody would see it. And I think I had a jacket on at that time, so I figured it was not going to be seen. So I put it.

[Anthony Rizzo]

That was during the rain delay, right?

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah. I went upstairs in a rain delay and did that. That's right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

That's amazing. Was when. During that rain delay. I mean, there was tears in the weight room from. With us.

[Joe Maddon]

I don't go there. I just. I went upstairs. I wanted to see the weather map. How long this was going to last.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Seven minutes.

[Joe Maddon]

Jed was there. Jed Hoyer was up there. We're looking at the map. I can't remember exactly what I talked to him about, but it's. It's a real. It's one of those, you know, obviously horrible moments. But you guys did. You guys did great. I mean, after that meeting with. With Jason, I walked out on the field and I said, damn. I mean, you guys looked.

[Anthony Rizzo]

We were ghosts in the ninth inning. Ghosts.

[David Ross]

Yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah. But you all look like the game was just good. Ready to begin. That's, that's. I mean the energy was outstanding.

[David Ross]

Schwarber was leading off. He walks by me and it's like, he's like, if this guy throws me

[Anthony Rizzo]

a cut around, I'm not gonna out of that.

[David Ross]

You know, he was Shaw and I'm like raging at stage.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And then Almora with the baseball.

[Joe Maddon]

Remember we worked on that during spring training series.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Was lost this year on a bad secondary lead.

[Joe Maddon]

That's right. That's right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

We won arguably the one World Series because of a read that he stuff

[David Ross]

we had worked on standard.

[Joe Maddon]

We did.

[Anthony Rizzo]

We worked on that stuff. Protocol says don't tag, go halfway.

[Joe Maddon]

That's right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Amora read it and I think.

[Joe Maddon]

I think Heider was screaming from the back of the bank.

[David Ross]

Really good coaches. Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Wow.

[David Ross]

But yeah, how did you celebrate when the whole thing was done? What went through your mind on that last hour?

[Joe Maddon]

I was exhausted. I mean, when you caught the ball, I thought 108. That was my first thought. I thought of my dad, of course, and then my family. But also I get really happy for the coaches. Don't take that wrong because it's really important for the coaches, you know, the salary they make compared to what everybody else makes. Sure. Because I was a coach. So I'm really happy for the coaching staff that this is going to be really benefit their family. I really. That's one of the first things I think about and then of course I just watch you guys do the dog pile out there and it's, you know, it's fabulous. So it's really weird because it's such an exhausting moment. I mean, to get to that point, to get to the seventh game of a World Series after everything that prep for spring training, spring training, regular season, playoffs on top of playoffs, on top of playoffs, down games, three games to one, comeback, get in position, win and then actually win it. Like you're saying there's nothing to be critical over that point. It's just like there's so many ebbs and flows to that moment and everything somehow has to break your way at the right moment. It just has to, you know, the base, there's good baseball luck and there's bad baseball luck. So maybe the good baseball luck and nobody talks about is the fact that they, the Indians took out Coco Crisp for defensive purposes for Martinez.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

Had they not then he's hitting in that particular spot and much more formidable hitter than Martinez was. So see, when you start, you start. What if. What if. What if. That's. What if is life. Yeah, it's life. I mean, what if. What if I.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Such an iconic world. You and Tito. Yeah, Tito as a manager, historic hall of Fame manager as well. What The Indians were 60 plus years were 108 years. The fans were just so into it. Everyone was so happy. Y. We win. The celebration is just absolutely epic. Right. And it changes our lives. Of course, 10 years later we're talking about, right, this reunion.

[Joe Maddon]

Well, it's going to get even more prominent as we move it along. The, the, the, the lore, the, the way that the fable's waste being told 20 years from now, 30 years from now is going to grow.

[Anthony Rizzo]

It's going to grow, hopefully.

[David Ross]

Did you feel like it was harder looking back on setting expectations in 2015 of how you were changing the culture and the winning ways or managing the expectations in 16? I mean, it was immediate. A year to believe. Yeah,

[Joe Maddon]

I think, you know, I just. The way you described it just they go hand in hand. Right. I mean, you have to set the expectations and then you have to manage them. I say when it comes down to managing expectations, I'm more about setting the, you know, and I don't really necessarily worry about managing them. I think that if you set it up right and you got the right group and, you know, you work your day properly, they kind of, that kind of takes care of itself, I think. I mean, I never really think about that phrase to manage my expectations. But I do think about setting them up.

[David Ross]

It feels like there's a couple times that we've talked that of like you just stay in the process.

[Joe Maddon]

I do. I'm pretty good in the moment. I'm pretty good present tense guy. There's certain times I'll get outside of that process. When you're tired a little bit, maybe something bad happened and you're just. Your confidence might have taken a little bit of a hit, but for the most part, I'm able to get back there. I don't know how much of it's Ken revisit and all the training I did with Kenny, even as a coach. I mean, as a player though I was playing quarterback when I was 10. Right. I'm calling my own plays when you're 10 years old, you know, so there's something to be said for that. I mean, I actually called my own plays when I was 10. And they state trooper eagles huddle. I'm calling the plays and I had audibles to call to. So what does that mean when you're 10 years old? How does that play? 15, 20, 30 years down the road? I don't know. But I did. And I was a captain on almost every team that I played on if I wasn't. So you always have this responsibility kind of thing. And you both are probably the same way. So how does that actually translate into being able to stay in the moment, accepting responsibility? The appropriate way to lead for me is not through intimidation, but through communication. That's the appropriate way to lead. And I think my best dudes. And I've often talked about Bob Clear in my book. Bob Clear was my guy with the Angels. He was like the best baseball coach I've ever been around. And then coach Bob Root, my backfield, my quarterback coach at Lafayette College. This man. God, I just one of the best communicators to me. And if I came off the field and I did the right thing or called the right play and he validated it, my God, did I get puffy, you know, because I just respected him so much communication.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Think about, think about in your time, not only with your. The Cubs. We'll talk about the Cubs in specific, how many lives you've touched as far as fans, players, legacy. There's things that you said that I said today about what I took with me as a player that I used my whole life.

[Joe Maddon]

Life.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And it was like. And I tell you this 10, 11 years later, and you remember these things. Yeah, it's not the Ricky Bobby I was high when I said that. Like, you, you genuinely. You generally remember.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Because in that moment of my life, it was the biggest, like, aha moment for me that I learned and took with me. And there's hundreds of players that you've probably touched along your journey.

[Joe Maddon]

Right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Which is just insane to think about. You know, when you live a life, what do you want to leave behind? A legacy?

[Joe Maddon]

And it's like you're, you're. You're pushing me back to my minor league days right now too. Absolutely. Because, I mean, starting out as a minor league coach in 1981, I was 27. Like, I had Dickie Schofield and Devon White on my first team in Idaho Falls as an example. And I wrote down all the list of the guys. Unbelievable that I. That made the really good major league players. And it is. It's ominous to think that the one thing. Because you never think about that. I never think about that. Ricky Lee Jones, songwriter, singer, she wrote, you never know when you're making a memory.

[David Ross]

Yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

You just never know when you're making a memory or whenever you're making an impact. Because I never evaluate myself that way. I don't. But I really appreciate what you guys are saying.

[David Ross]

You've made an impact.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And Ken, too. You don't.

[Joe Maddon]

Bring Ken. Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Another pioneer.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah, right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Yeah. Bring the sport.

[Joe Maddon]

Ken.

[Anthony Rizzo]

Ken. I'll say this quick. Ken had me do a drill in spring training. Close my eyes, do my whole pre game batting routine, like from the on deck circle to the box.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

He times me.

[Joe Maddon]

Yeah.

[Anthony Rizzo]

He's like the elites get it within a second. I got it within a second. He's like, you. You'll be surprised how many guys go through their entire visualization process. Process. And get it within like a second of when they open their eyes.

[Joe Maddon]

Okay.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And I carried that with me forever. Whenever I was in a rut, I would go through my process. I remember jumping on Aaron Judge's back one time. Right?

[David Ross]

Oh, yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

Did you do that?

[Anthony Rizzo]

Absolutely. Yeah. I was all the time about Ken and are you breathing, man? Are you breathing?

[Joe Maddon]

That's right.

[Anthony Rizzo]

And he would jump on my back if I was struggling. Hey, man, I gotta get on your back. Yes. You feel the weight of the world get off your shoulder there. And it's like these little things that just make pain the biggest impact in lives. And you've certainly done that for me. You've certainly done that for me. I love you too. So this is like. I was. I. I'm so happy.

[David Ross]

Look, this has been amazing. You've You've obviously impacted a lot, and we're so thankful for how you've impacted. This has been really fun for us, and we've got all year to celebrate this. Any. Any advice you would give Joe Madden, from you talking a lot about minor league days to now you're no longer managing and all the crazy impact you've had in between, like, what advice would you give to our baseball people that are listening or fans and some of the stuff that's helped you out the most that we can take. Yeah, I mean, we need one more nugget from you.

[Joe Maddon]

I actually put it on a T shirt once, and I think the word comes down to authenticity. I mean, everybody. Everybody wants to be like everybody else. We have influencers everywhere right now. And, of course, I had influencers, too. No question. I wore white shoes when I played football because Namath did whatever. I wore a bigger face mask. But at the end of the day, don't run away from who you are and what you believe in. And also know what you believe in, too. I mean, it's not that you can't make adaptations or be flexible. You have to be. But at the end of the day, just really know what you believe in and put it out there. I think too many times people will attempt to say what they think somebody wants to hear. We've already kind of covered this. But put out there what you truly believe in. And I think the respect you get in return for that is greater than. Because even if the person you're speaking with doesn't agree with what you're saying, they'll probably listen to that and take it to heart. And maybe you're going to make an impact in that authentic way. Because. Because if you choose to not really be who you are or authentic, it's really difficult to copy or put that fake thing out there on a daily basis, which a lot of people do.

[Anthony Rizzo]

It's easy for guys to pick up on, too.

[Joe Maddon]

Exactly. It's very transparent. Right? So I just think the word authenticity, never run away from it. And authenticity cannot be manufactured. It's gotta be organic.

[David Ross]

Yeah.

[Joe Maddon]

Thank you.

[David Ross]

Boom, buddy.

[Joe Maddon]

Boom, boys. Boom. Thank you.

[David Ross]

Nice.

[Joe Maddon]

That is a wrap. That was great. Well done, guys. You guys. Thank you, buddy. Good luck with all this, buddy. That was so fun. I mean, I was. I didn't know it. Great story, but you guys did a great job.

[Chelsea Handler]

This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. After the Big Game, like most people, I kept thinking about the commercials, and there was one that stayed with me. It was from the Blue Square Alliance Against Hate. And it wasn't loud or flashy. It showed a Jewish kid being targeted at school and another student who chose not to ignore it. As someone who is Jewish, that moment felt very real to me. Not dramatic, just familiar. And what struck me was how clearly it showed that hate doesn't always announce itself, but the impact is still huge. If you saw the Blue square spot during the big game, it's worth thinking about. And if you want to show support, sharing the Blue square is one small way to do that.