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- [00:00]
Mariana
Foreign. Welcome to the Hidden Third. I don't think you need much of an introduction, but just for our listeners, I think most people know who you are. But just to recap, Amanda went to Italy to study abroad when she was 20 years old. And just a few weeks after she arrived, her roommate Meredith Kersher was murdered. And Amanda became the story. Wrongfully convicted, imprisoned for four years and treated by everyone, especially the media, as if she was guilty. Today, Amanda is a New York Times bestselling author, a journalist, a criminal. You're not a journalist. Why did I write journalist?
- [00:37]
Amanda Knox
Well, I've done some journalism. You have? I've written for the Atlantic. I mean, would you call a podcaster who looks at journalistic stories?
- [00:49]
Mariana
Yeah, I think it's a term that can apply to many people. So here you are, best selling author, a journalist, a criminal justice reform advocate, which I really want to talk to you about, and the host of her own podcast, Hard Knocks. Amanda, welcome to the Hidden Third.
- [01:04]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, thank you.
- [01:04]
Mariana
So I mentioned it briefly, but we have a lot in common because we both studied abroad in Italy. I was there many years before you. I studied in Rome. We both. It went well. I loved it so much. And we both had Italian boyfriends, like you do. I heard you in an interview saying how he was the typical Italian boyfriend, except for the fact that he didn't have a Vespa, but mine actually had a Vespa.
- [01:27]
Amanda Knox
I mean, you checked all the boxes.
- [01:29]
Mariana
I did check all the boxes, yeah. And, yeah, I'm so happy to have you here because I've been closely following your story ever since it happened because we had, you know, I had also lived in Italy, and I would like to tell you from the start that I'd never in a single. Like, as soon as it came out, I was reading all the articles, and from the start, I never thought there was no chance in hell that I thought that you were guilty. Thank you.
- [01:53]
Amanda Knox
I mean, I wouldn't have blamed you if you had been fooled. Yeah, I know.
- [01:56]
Mariana
Because a lot of people did.
- [01:57]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, a lot of people were lied to.
- [01:59]
Mariana
Right.
- [02:00]
Amanda Knox
And there's been just crazy misinformation about it. And people can't, like, parse what is true or what's not. And so it's. I don't blame people for being confused,
- [02:11]
Mariana
you know, so that's one thing that you do that I love that you do. I've listened to you. I want to go back to your story because that's what we do in these episodes. But one thing that I've Noticed in your interviews, because I've been preparing for this and listening to you talk is you do something very special, which is even when we're talking about the people that harmed you, you always stop the interviewer and you always say, but wait, let's listen. Let me try to explain to you why they did what they did. Like, you always try to find the reason and sort of the humanity in everyone, which I really appreciate. You do that?
- [02:42]
Amanda Knox
You like that? Yeah. I mean, look, when I was going through everything, it seemed like everyone was ready to vilify me and to not give me the benefit of the doubt. And so the last thing that I wanted to do was repeat that kind of mistake. And I think that one of the things that I have tried to do as a part of my healing process is just understand what happened. And I don't think I was ever satisfied with easy answers. So because the world is more complicated, that people are more complicated than that, I would have to think that the people who did this to me were psychopaths and monsters unless I gave them the benefit of the doubt. And so I. I didn't think that that was true. And therefore, because the truth is important to me, I decided to pursue a path of understanding that ultimately led me into this weird position of, like, defending a little bit the people who hurt me or who think bad things about me to people who are, I think. I think out of, like, respect for me and, like, wanting to be supportive of me, just be like those guys, you know? And I'm like, I get it a little bit. Yes. But also, like, let's. If we really want to try to stop bad things from happening, we need to be able to put ourselves in the shoes of people who make bad decisions in order to address the issue.
- [04:14]
Mariana
Yeah. And in your case, including the prosecutor, the lead prosecutor in your case, who really sort of demonized you in a way. But we'll get to that.
- [04:22]
Amanda Knox
Yes.
- [04:23]
Mariana
Yeah. So let me start from the beginning, which is how you're growing up. I've heard you talk about your parents got divorced, but early on in your life.
- [04:31]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [04:32]
Mariana
And that didn't really, like, you had a wonderful childhood.
- [04:35]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, I wouldn't say that I had anything bad ever happen to me. And that includes, you know, I was raised in a divorced household, but, like, it wasn't. It wasn't a painful experience. Like, I didn't have any memory of my parents being together. I grew up with two houses and two Christmases and, you know, like, I got to have two birthday parties. So for Me, it was great. Like, I didn't mind it at all. And it didn't occur to me that that might be even considered a negative thing, because in my world, like, my. My parents did an excellent job of, like, keeping their, you know, whatever rancor or. Or hurt feelings they had, they kept those to themselves. Like, when. When we were together as a family. We're together as a family, period. And so I grew up with this, like, a lot of support, a lot of love, and again, nothing bad had ever happened to me. So in a way, I was blessed. And also, in a way, I was cursed to. To then go through the experience that I did. Yeah, to not be prepared at all. But to be fair, no one in my family was prepared for what happened.
- [05:47]
Mariana
Like, nobody can ever be right. You were a really good student as well and a good athlete. You were just.
- [05:52]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, I didn't. Again, I didn't struggle with anything. I always did well in school. I did well in sports. I had lots of friends. Everything came easy to me.
- [06:01]
Mariana
You said you were quirky. How were you. What way were you quirky when you were younger?
- [06:04]
Amanda Knox
Do you know how, like, musical theater kids, where they, like, you know, might break out into song between classes or. Like, I, you know, I just was, like, very buoyant, you know? You know, and I. I really love to be silly. I love to play. I love, you know, I. Even as a high schooler, I wasn't so concerned with, like, being. Looking cool. Like, I was really just comfortable in my own skin. And. And so. And that was just, you know, I made people feel comfortable because I was willing to be the sort of silly one in the room who was like, could, you know, take a joke. Like, I could be the butt of the joke, and that was okay, you know.
- [06:42]
Mariana
And at what point did you decide that you wanted to go to Italy? How did that come about?
- [06:46]
Amanda Knox
Well, the. I've always wanted to study abroad. It was actually sort of, like, spoken, not spoken in my family. Like, obviously, this kid's going to study abroad. Because, I mean, I had grew. I had grown up with my family members speaking German around me. Like, I just knew that there were other places and other cultures. I had family in Germany, and the expectation was that I would study abroad in Germany, but my family took us on a trip to Italy when I was 14 years old, and. And I just fell in love. I didn't speak the language at the time, but, like, I totally just fell in love with this ancient, beautiful culture. I loved exploring the. The ruins of Pompeii that was just awesome to me. And I, I so in my brain was this love for the, you know, the beautiful under the Tuscan sun vibes of, of Italy. And so when I decided I was going, I actually applied both to Germany and to Italy. And I just happened somehow to get into Italy first. So there I was into Perugia.
- [07:57]
Mariana
I traveled to Perugia also when I was in Rome. Yeah, I also fell in love with Italy. Although the first time I ever went to Italy was actually when I moved to Rome to study.
- [08:07]
Amanda Knox
Wow, okay, you're just like, Yep, I'm just going. I've heard good things.
- [08:10]
Mariana
Yeah, it's the worst. So I've been using this face moisturizer from this brand called One Skin and I didn't know what to expect, but I'm actually kind of obsessed. This is how it comes out. And it's super creamy. It makes your face feel really sort of fresh and hydrated in a way that other face moisturizers I've used in the past haven't. And the same thing with the eye cream, it's really different. It makes you really moisturizes your skin in a way that others that I've tried haven't. And what makes one's skin different from everything else else out There is their OS1 peptide. That's OS1. It's the first ingredient actually proven to target that cells behind wrinkles and fine lines and loss of elasticity. Real science free from over 1,500 harsh or irritating ingredients. Which makes it certified safe for sensitive skin and founded by an all woman team of PhDs. One more thing that Jennifer Hanniston and I have in common, apart from her being a journalist on the morning show, is that apparently she' obsessed with One Skin, which doesn't surprise me. Born from over a decade of longevity research, OneSkin's OS1 peptide is proven to target the visible signs of aging, helping you unlock your healthiest skin now and as you age. So for a limited time, try one skin with 15% off using code MARIANA@OneskinCO. That's 15 off Oneskin CO with Code Mariana. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them and please support our show and tell them that we sent you. It was interesting that I found out. I had no idea. But you started working to save money to go to Italy.
- [10:03]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, no, I was not. I didn't have like a trust fund for going to Italy. Like I, I worked three jobs right on top of going to classes. So I worked in sort of like bakery, coffee, Shop kind of thing. I was a trainer for a soccer team, and I also did, like, waitressing on the side for, like, events. And so I was just saving money to go up and go to this place.
- [10:30]
Mariana
And were your family and friends all really sad when you were leaving?
- [10:34]
Amanda Knox
No, they were so excited for me. Like, again, like, it. This was. This was the plan. This was. Everyone was excited, and I think the only thing that they were concerned about is I'm. I have a very bad sense of direction. So they were afraid that I might get lost or that I might lose my passport. Like, as my stepdad liked to say, I would lose my butt if it wasn't attached to me. So, like, that's what they were. They were like, oh, this. You know, this is a. Basically a teenager. Like, I'm 20 years. I just turned 20 years old. I'm. I'm a teenager who's, like, going off alone to a foreign country. Is this kid going to, like, lose her passport and.
- [11:14]
Mariana
And wait at this point? Still, you didn't. Even though you'd been to Italy and you were obsessed with Italy, you weren't practicing Italian. Like, you arrived in Italy not knowing any Italian or you. So I had.
- [11:23]
Amanda Knox
I had one year of. Of elementary basic Italian behind me, so I could say things like, do biblioteca, right? You know, where's the library? Where's the library? Really basic vocabulary. But it was the kind of thing where I didn't know a lot of the words. And. And I was still very much, like, having to translate in real time what was being said to me and how I was communicating. And so I was doing my very best. But it was. It was cute Italian. Like, I could mostly just talk about food, and that was it.
- [11:54]
Mariana
And then you arrived, and it was amazing. Everything you.
- [11:56]
Amanda Knox
Oh, yeah. I mean, again, you've studied abroad, like, when you're. It's the best. And, like, especially Perugia was interesting because it's a small town, way smaller than Romeo, but there still is a very sizable student population. And so not only was I, like, immersed in Italian culture, and suddenly I can drink wine and have fresh mozzarella and all of that, but also there was a really great, like, multicultural thing with students. Like, I immediately, like, became really close friends with a girl in my class who was from Kazakhstan.
- [12:32]
Mariana
Wow.
- [12:32]
Amanda Knox
And I was teaching her how to play guitar. And so she would come over to my house and I would teach her guitar from my be. So it was just like that kind of thing where you're, like, meet people and everyone's like, newly in a new place. And so you're just, like, immediately, like, making friends with people that you never would otherwise run into. Like, it was. It was great.
- [12:52]
Mariana
Yeah. I think one of the things that I loved about the experience and why I tell everybody to go is first of all, it's. Yeah. Different perspective, adventures, experiences you'll never have. But also, you can sort of you. You find yourself out.
- [13:04]
Amanda Knox
Right.
- [13:04]
Mariana
There's so much about you that you don't know until you are in those situations. And you can almost sort of rebuild yourself, like, come. You know, come up with a different type of person. You were shy before. Maybe now you're not as shy.
- [13:17]
Amanda Knox
Totally.
- [13:18]
Mariana
Yeah. That's what I loved. And I remember walking was one of my first days walking down the street. And I'm going back to the boyfriend for a second.
- [13:27]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. Yeah.
- [13:27]
Mariana
Because for me, it was a defining moment, too, where I saw where this guy, he was working on his Vespa, and we started talking. And at that point, I only had international students friends, and. But then once I met him, I basically started only hanging out with Italians, but he didn't speak a word of English, so I learned Italian faster than anything.
- [13:48]
Amanda Knox
Right. Like, that's what you want to do. Full immersion. Yeah. But you.
- [13:52]
Mariana
You met your Italian boyfriend.
- [13:54]
Amanda Knox
Yes.
- [13:55]
Mariana
Concert or something.
- [13:56]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. So there were events that were at my concert that, you know, to try or. Sorry. There were events at my college that were just, like, there to introduce people to Italian culture. And so one of those things was a quartet of string instruments that are playing classical Italian music. And I like classical music. I like all kinds of music. And so I was really excited to go. I actually asked Meredith to go with me, and she did. And then she had other plans later on, so she left at intermission. And the person who took her seat next to me was Rafaele Sollechito. So. Yes. So my Italian boyfriend just happened to, like, swoop in and take her seat during intermission. And then we, like. He spoke again. Like, he spoke cute English. I spoke cute Italian. But, like, when you're young and you are sort of vibing with a person, you don't really need to understand each other to, like, understand that you're vibing with each other. And we immediately vibed he was, like, a nerd in a way that I found very sweet. Like, he was. Tell me if this was your experience. They've, like, called me. Did you have, like, blondish hair when you were there? Absolutely. Okay. So were they calling you Bionda.
- [15:12]
Mariana
Bionda. And they would Say things like, say bella comun rayo de sol.
- [15:19]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. So like, for me, I was astonished to be considered like exotic, right? Like, I've never been exotic in the us I just look like anybody else, you know. And in Italy, like, I don't even have blonde hair. Like, just because I looked Germanic or American, like I was exotic all of a sudden. So like I found myself sort of aggressively pursued by Italian guys and I was almost like, like off put by it. I was unprepared. And the thing that I liked about Rafaele was that he was actually timid. Like, he's just like any Italian guy in the sense that he's like very romantic, but he was timid and I liked that. And so I'm comfortable in the, in
- [16:10]
Mariana
the Netflix doc where he talks about how you were looking at him and he was like, no, she can't possibly be looking at me. And she kept looking, she looking at, couldn't believe it was him. Tell me about your relationship with Meredith, by the way.
- [16:22]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, what was that like? So Meredith and I were the two foreigners in our house. We were both similar age. She was 21, I was 20. We were roommates with two Italians who were best friends from a long time. And they were much, I mean much. They were a few years old, like they were 28 and we were in our early 20s. So. But it felt like a significant difference of, of age and maturity. So like our household was kind of divided between Laura and Philomena, who knew each other very well, had been roommates for a long time. And then we were the two sort of like tag alongs in, in our, in this like apartment scenario. And we had a lot in common. Like she was also interested in writing and journalism. She, she was more fluent in Italian than me, so she was able to sort of help me with any like question. She was also kind of big sistered me a little bit. She had been in Italy a little longer than me and she, she had already like a group of friends that she had made that were all from the uk. She was from the UK and but she was great. I mean, she loved to dance, she loved to cook, we would go shopping together. She was really nice to me. And whenever, like I was, you know, say I was walking home late from, you know, going out, she'd be like, text me when you're getting home. You know, like just so motherly. Yeah. Or like big sisterly. I would say. Like she was, she was sweet and considerate and I mean everyone liked her. Like there was nothing not to like. Like, she was very. She was very. Just a nice person.
- [18:07]
Mariana
You said you were both interested in journalism. Were you thinking of becoming a journalist at that point?
- [18:10]
Amanda Knox
Not at the time. I was more interested in translating. So I want. Like, I was more of a poetry person. Like, I. One of the things that we did was go to the bookstore so I could get some poetry books in Italian because I wanted to start translating poetry.
- [18:25]
Mariana
But this is where our similarities end. Okay.
- [18:28]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, no, I was. I was super nerdy in that. Like, my idea of this, of a successful life was being able to translate poetry for a living. That's what I would have loved to do. And she was more interested in, like, politics and. But she also has, like, journalism in her family. Her. Her dad is a journalist or was a journalist. So he passed away too, right? Yeah.
- [18:50]
Mariana
And so this is. So you're starting this relationship with Rafaele. You're spending a lot of time with him? Yeah. And then.
- [19:00]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, well, I didn't get to spend that much time with him. We only knew each other for five days before everything horrible happened. But in those five days, we really connected and we just spent all of our time together. When I wasn't in class, we were just hanging out together, cooking together, shopping. I was. I stayed every night over at his house. Like, we really, like, immediately, like, hit it off. And our.
- [19:26]
Mariana
It's really cute, by the way. Just sorry to interrupt you. Just to hear him talk about that. Those days with you. Right. When you hear it in that, I mean.
- [19:33]
Amanda Knox
And we were. It was sweet. Like, you know, I would go and he had, like, a kickboxing class that he went to. And so I, like, went and watched him do kickboxing. And then we would go home and like, make fish together and then read Harry Potter together. Like, it was just like that kind of thing. And he was so. Again, he was really sweet. And actually, the day that I came home to discover a crime scene, I woke up that morning and our plan was to spend a romantic weekend in a. In Gubbio, this, like, small town nearby, Perugia, that's famous for its truffles. He really wanted to be like, this gracious host who's, like, showing me all the beautiful things in Italy. And, you know, he bought me a perfume because all Italian girls have their own perfume. And so he had this, like, romantic plan to take me to Gubbio. And all I had to do was go home, take a shower, get a change of clothes, and go off to be swept off my feet. And when I came home,
- [20:36]
Mariana
you'd slept the night.
- [20:37]
Amanda Knox
I slept the night at his house. And I came home and things were amiss. My front door was open, which was strange because I. No one was home. I went inside and I was like, where is everybody? But, like, the door, like, lock to our door, our front door was kind of broken. And so you had to, like, fully lock with a key just to keep the door from swinging open. And I thought, oh, maybe. And didn't, you know, fully lock the door or something? Like, I don't know. It was. But it was strange. And I had this like, huh. Moment. But I didn't know. I didn't think immediately, oh, someone's been murdered here. I just thought, huh, okay, weird. And then I went to go take a shower. And after I took a shower, I noticed that there was blood in my bathroom. Not a lot, like, spots of blood. And I thought, huh. But again, you know, we're a household of girls. Occasionally we have our periods. Maybe that's what's going on. So again, I'm like, rationalizing everything that I'm seeing based on everything that I know. Like, I'm trying to, like, make sense of it. And it isn't until I go and blow dry my hair in the second bathroom that I notice there's feces left in this, in the toilet. And that immediately, like, all of the things together suddenly felt ominous to me. Like, I thought, oh, no, someone's been in our house. And I immediately left. I was immediately, like, you know, crawly on my skin feeling. And I left being like, what?
- [22:12]
Mariana
What? What would that.
- [22:13]
Amanda Knox
What was that? And I was discombobulated. I went back to Rafaele and I told him immediately, like, am I crazy? Like, am I overreacting? Like, that felt really wrong to me. And he was like, well, you should just call your roommates. Like, figure out what's going on. So I did. I start calling my roommates. No one's answering their phone. None of them. Finally, I get through to Filamena. And that's like, when me and Rafael are on our way back to the house to check it out. Because I was like, no one's answering their phone. Can you come with me to check this out? He's like, of course. So he's going with me. We get in touch with Philomena and she says, take a look around. So we look around and we notice that her bedroom window has been broken. And so I tell her, there's been a break in. You need to come home. And can you tell? Like, I can't get A hold of Laura. I can't get a hold of Meredith. Philomena says, Laura's not in town, she's in Rome. And they don't know where Meredith is. And so we're all sort of freaking out. We're calling the police, we're trying to get in touch with people. And when the police arrive, when Philomena arrives, we break into Meredith's room. Her door has been locked. And discover her body.
- [23:30]
Mariana
You never actually saw it?
- [23:32]
Amanda Knox
No, I didn't. Thank God. No, I wasn't outside the house yet. I was in the kitchen talking with the other police officer. So I was like, telling the police officer, okay, when I arrived, this is what I saw, and this is what we touched and all of that. Meanwhile, the Philomena and her boyfriend and one of the other cops was, like, trying to bang down Meredith's door. And they did. And as soon as they did, everyone started screaming and. And talking in loud, rapid Italian. And I'm just like, what is happening? What's. What is happening? And we're all booted out of the house. And I'm picking up words here and there. Like, I hear blood, I hear foot. I hear closet. And I'm trying to. I'm thinking, is there a bloody foot in a closet? Like, what is going on? And finally, Raffaele is able to, like, overhear what everyone's talking about. And he says, there's a body in Meredith's room. And. And then we're like, a body? A body in Meredith's room. Like, who is it? And it isn't until we're like, again, sort of trying to get information from everybody that someone says, we think it's Meredith. And again, I'm like a kid where nothing bad has ever happened ever, in my whole life. And I kind of go into a state of shock. Meanwhile, like, you know, Philomena, my roommate, who did see into the bedroom, saw the blood, saw everything. She's freaking out, understandably. She's sobbing and hysterical. And meanwhile, I'm just sort of, like, standing there like a deer in headlights. And I. I kind of can't believe what. What Rafaele is conveying to me. And he's sitting there, like, watching me just go through, like, all of these confused and scared and sad emotions. And he's just trying to comfort me. He puts his jacket on me and
- [25:37]
Mariana
he kisses me, which is the shot that they use again and again of you kissing him or you guys kissing each other. And it was used as sort of to show how you were reacting strangely.
- [25:48]
Amanda Knox
Yes.
- [25:48]
Mariana
The murder of your roommate right after
- [25:50]
Amanda Knox
the fact, after I was arrested, which
- [25:54]
Mariana
I've seen that shot. And there's nothing strange about it. It just seems like. Like. Yeah, like he was comforting you.
- [25:59]
Amanda Knox
So this is what is so interesting about my case is I think that if you. I think we all see reality through a filter. I think we all like to think of ourselves as objective viewers of reality. But, like, I've already described how I walked into a crime scene and my filter on reality was nothing bad ever happens because nothing bad has ever happened to me. So even when I saw blood in my sink and the front door open, I didn't automatically jump to the worst case scenario because that's the filter through which I see reality.
- [26:36]
Mariana
That is so true. I think that's very much why I never thought you were guilty from the start, because I could see myself in you. Like, I have been in that situation. I've had a boyfriend. I've lived in Italy. Like, this could be me, and there's no way that this would happen. Yeah, it's very much. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. For the good or bad?
- [26:52]
Amanda Knox
For the good or bad.
- [26:53]
Mariana
Right?
- [26:54]
Amanda Knox
Like, once I'm arrested and accused.
- [26:57]
Mariana
Right?
- [26:58]
Amanda Knox
Like, that filter goes down and people view everything I do in the worst possible light through the lens of suspicion.
- [27:10]
Mariana
Hey, everyone. So I have something really important I wanted to share with you all. For more than 20 years, I've gone to places that most people would never willingly step into. Cartel territory, scam compounds, trafficking networks. And what I've learned is that the most important stories are the hardest ones to share. Not because people don't want to watch these stories, but because corporations, advertisers, and algorithms now decide what gets made and what doesn't. The Hidden Third exists outside all of that. No network censorship, no sponsor conflicts, no compromises. And the only way to keep it that way is to build it directly with you. That's why I created the Hidden Third. Patreon Bonus episodes. Behind the scenes from the field, early access to new episodes, a direct line to me and the reporting as it happens, and much, much more. If you're still watching this right now, you're exactly who I built this for. So join us@patreon.com the hidden third. The link is below. And now back to the conversation.
- [28:18]
Amanda Knox
So, you know, I know today that the police suspected me from the very beginning. There are different. Like, I've sort of been able to. To glean why by, you know, asking my prosecutor about it, like, hearing what they originally were saying in the initial, like, media reports. And some of them range from just gross. Like, one detective is on camera saying that he, like, knew he was suspicious of me from the start because I smelled like sex.
- [28:54]
Mariana
Oh, wow.
- [28:55]
Amanda Knox
So, like, anything from something as gross as that to wow, also so misogynistic. Yeah, a bit.
- [29:03]
Mariana
If you were a man, that wouldn't matter.
- [29:05]
Amanda Knox
No, like. Like, okay, first of all, that's an opinion.
- [29:08]
Mariana
Yeah, like.
- [29:11]
Amanda Knox
Like, right, whatever. Like, what does that even mean? But two, there was. I think there was. For example, my prosecutor says that when they saw Meredith's body, like, her body had been covered by a blanket. And immediately there was this feeling among the prosecutors and the. The prosecutor and the detectives that, like, this. This case didn't appear as or wasn't as it appeared to be. They're like, why would a burglar cover the victim's body with a blanket? Only someone, like, who knew and cared about this person potentially might do that, who might feel shame for what they had done. It also to them felt like a feminine gesture. Like a woman who, in the aftermath of murdering another woman, might feel. Feel some compassion for that woman's body. And so it would cover her out of, like, a sense of decency. Like, there was that. Like, to them, they were looking at a fact. Her body was covered with a blanket. But then they were deriving all of these conclusions from that fact that were just opinions. They were just ideas. And I think what's really interesting about this case is that I think that the prosecution and the detectives really struggled to distinguish between a fact and an opinion. Right. Like, to them, that was a deeply meaningful clue. They, like. They, like, did a whole psychological profile of the killer based on that fact, and it pointed to someone like me, not to the person who actually committed this crime.
- [31:03]
Mariana
So they had this narrative that they built in their heads, and then they were trying to have everything that happens after that sort of fit into their narrative.
- [31:11]
Amanda Knox
Right, yes. Which is called confirmation bias. Who are not familiar with the term.
- [31:16]
Mariana
Exactly.
- [31:16]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [31:17]
Mariana
It's. So I remember this in the documentary, the idea of the blanket. This must have been done by a woman, because who else would have put a blanket on top of a body if not for a woman? Particularly a woman who is close to Meredith? Which is crazy, but. Yeah. Again, not a fact.
- [31:33]
Amanda Knox
It's not a fact. I mean, sure, maybe, maybe, but that's not what actually happened. And you need to, like, put that in the back of your mind as, like, an interesting fact. That could be an interesting conclusion. But, like, don't be attached to it so much that it completely disrupts your ability to look at what the overwhelming evidence suggests, which is that somebody broke into our house and. And raped and murdered my roommate. Like, you know, and it's interesting that this case became so controversial considering what the actual evidence says. Like, this isn't a confusing case. I think, you know, there's very clear, like, if anyone would just had all of the evidence presented to them without, you know, any order, say, like, the, The. The case. Like, the idea of what the case was, the conclusion came before the evidence is what happened. So, like, they. They had their idea of what happened, and only weeks later did they have the DNA evidence, for example. And the DNA evidence is pointing to this local known burglar.
- [32:47]
Mariana
Right.
- [32:47]
Amanda Knox
But they had already derived their conclusion beforehand. And so once they realized, oh, there's an actual burglar involved, instead of saying, oh, we were wrong, they just shoehorned him in to the scenario that they had already imagined.
- [33:01]
Mariana
Right. Which is crazy. Are you not. Do you not usually say his name, or is it.
- [33:05]
Amanda Knox
Oh, Rudy. Good day.
- [33:06]
Mariana
Yeah, Rudy. Good day.
- [33:07]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. Yeah.
- [33:07]
Mariana
Interesting that I was searching him up. He was. He's being charged with sexual assault, right?
- [33:13]
Amanda Knox
Yes. He is on trial for sexual assaulting another woman since getting out of prison.
- [33:17]
Mariana
But he was convicted for the murder of Meredith.
- [33:19]
Amanda Knox
Yes.
- [33:20]
Mariana
And. And he was released from prison not soon.
- [33:23]
Amanda Knox
Like, he spent 13 years in prison. So he was sentenced to. Initially, he was sentenced to 30 years, but that was reduced to 16 on appeal on the basis of him not being the one who murdered Meredith. So. Yeah, so. And this is. Again, this is the prosecution. It's on the prosecution for this. The prosecution was so fixated on finding me guilty that they were willing to let Rudy Goodet off the hook for his crimes in order to foot put the blame on me. So Rudy g' Day was never accused of wielding a knife. He was never accused of breaking into our home. He was never accused of stealing Meredith's belongings. Like, all he was found guilty of. Like, he was found guilty of sexually assaulting Meredith because that was undeniable. His DNA was in her body. And then he was found guilty of participating in her murder. He was not found guilty of actually wielding any weapon against her, which is why his sentence was drastically reduced. And then he got out after 13 years.
- [34:36]
Mariana
I mean, it's confirmation bias to an extreme. It's insane. But what I don't understand is, so they built this case with the idea was that you, Raffaele, your boyfriend, and Rudy were involved in this gruesome. Murder. But then once they figured out that actually you guys were innocent, why didn't they just retry him? Considering that now they realize that he was the only one in the room, so he was the one who killed, who was responsible for everything, and surely have had more time in prison than just 13 years.
- [35:03]
Amanda Knox
I mean, that's an interesting argument. I think the legal reason for it is that he was tried separately from Rafaele and. And me. And so in terms of him being. He's been tried for his involvement in Meredith's murder and because the prosecution never argued that he will. Like they were never interested in arguing that he wielded the weapon.
- [35:33]
Mariana
Yeah.
- [35:33]
Amanda Knox
And so I wonder if it's like a double jeopardy. I wonder if it's a double jeopardy thing or if it's just a lack of willingness on the part of the prosecution. Because that would be admitting that they were wrong from the beginning with me. I think there is. There is a strong resistance to admitting. Still admit that fault in this case. Yes.
- [35:56]
Mariana
And so this was all happening that day. You were obviously devastated, in total shock. Also probably afraid because you didn't want to go. It was closed off. Right, the house. Yeah.
- [36:07]
Amanda Knox
I didn't have a home to go home to anymore.
- [36:10]
Mariana
How many days after that were you called into the police station?
- [36:13]
Amanda Knox
So I was called in every day after that, leading up to my arrest. And it was five days total.
- [36:19]
Mariana
Every single day you would have to go to the police station and testify about what happened that night, Right?
- [36:22]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, yeah. Everything that I could remember about anyone who had looked sideways at Meredith. And like, they. What they conveyed to me very early on was that I was their most important witness, which. So, like, when I was tired or overwhelmed or I said, I've told you everything I know. I don't know anything else. They would say, well, we need you to try harder because anything that you might remember, like, you're. You were so close to Meredith. You lived with her, you knew all the people that she knew. Like anything that you can remember, even that tiny, insignificant detail could be the making or breaking of this case. We need to catch the killer.
- [36:58]
Mariana
So you felt like a responsibility to even wanted to be there.
- [37:01]
Amanda Knox
Absolutely.
- [37:02]
Mariana
Did you. Sorry to ask you this, but did you talk to her parents at that time? During.
- [37:06]
Amanda Knox
So, no, I didn't have their personal numbers. What I heard in the early days was that they were on their way to Perusia and actually I met with my other two roommates and we made plans to meet with them once they arrived, but I was arrested Before I had that opportunity.
- [37:26]
Mariana
Yeah. I was wondering if they'd reached out to you as somebody who was close to Meredith at that time.
- [37:30]
Amanda Knox
I mean, it was chaotic in those first days. Like, I don't know if they knew how to get a hold of me. I certainly didn't know how to get a hold of them. I. Yeah, like, all I did at that in those early days was what the police told me to do. And so. And. And then, of course, call my family and just try to keep them informed of what was going on. And they wanted me to leave the country. Like, they were terrified. And to be fair, like, a lot of people did. Like, there were a lot of students who were immediately called home after the news broke.
- [38:03]
Mariana
Yeah. Because they thought that, yeah, there was a murder on the loose. Right.
- [38:06]
Amanda Knox
Yes. Like, get out of there. But the police told me that I was too important to the investigation to leave, and so I stayed. And that's when my mom said, okay, fine, well, I'm coming to you. And then the day that she arrived in Italy was the day that I was arrested.
- [38:21]
Mariana
Oh, it was that day. Okay, so you. So it was the fifth day you go back to the station. And did you notice that things were different this day? Or was it. Did it feel like it was just another. Oh, actually, it wasn't you. Right.
- [38:35]
Amanda Knox
Yes. So talk.
- [38:36]
Mariana
Yeah. Interviewed.
- [38:38]
Amanda Knox
I mean, the thing that looking back was unusual is that they called rafaele at, like, 10:30 at night. Like, it was very late when they called, but at the same time, like, I had already done, you know, overnight at the police station, just because Everybody was working 247 to try to solve this crime. We were called in at crazy hours. And so it didn't strike me as odd that he had been called in at an odd hour. What the position that put me in, though, was that he was called into the police station. And I had a choice either to go with him to the police station or to stay alone in his apartment. And I was terrified to be alone. So I followed him to the police station, thinking that it would be like, an hour at most, because Rafaele, he didn't. He barely knew Meredith. Like, he. All he did was spend the night with me. Like, I didn't think that. I mean, I guess he was the one who called the police for me, so maybe they wanted to ask him about that. Like, I didn't, you know, I didn't know, but I thought it would be really quick. Like, I brought my homework with me, thinking that I was just going to do a homework assignment while he was answering questions. And what ended up happening is a police officer saw me waiting in the waiting room and sort of like casually sat down next to me and was like, hey, what you working on there? And but then started, you know, asking me a few more questions, like, oh, have you thought of anything since the last time you we talked? And I was like, no, I can't, I just can't think. I don't understand what, what, what happened? And he sort of like just kept being very casual, like, oh, you know, this is like it wasn't a formal. And it wasn't until another police officer came into the room and saw him talking to me that she was like, what are you doing? And he was like, well, we're just talking about the case. And she was like, well, if you're talking about the case, we need to like formalize that. So she brought me in.
- [40:47]
Mariana
So do you think, wait, do you think this was all pre planned, like they had a strategy in place for all of that?
- [40:51]
Amanda Knox
I don't know. I think again, I think I, I. We know that they suspected me from the beginning, but I don't know if they suspected me of being fully involved or if they thought I knew something that I wasn't telling them. I got the feeling that they thought I knew something and that I was covering for somebody. And I mean, part of that is based on the fact that I had told them a lie.
- [41:32]
Mariana
One lie about the weed, Right?
- [41:34]
Amanda Knox
Yes. So the first day that I was in, I was undergoing questioning. My, one of my roommates said, you cannot tell the cops that we smoke weed. They were law interns. And she said, we will lose our jobs if they find out that we smoke weed. So just if they ask, none of us touch it. Right.
- [41:56]
Mariana
Because weed, completely illegal, totally illegally. I'm not sure if she still is, but it was definitely back then.
- [42:02]
Amanda Knox
What I did not know is that the boys who lived downstairs from us, so we had a cottage that had two stories and there were boys that lived in the downstairs from us. And Meredith was actually sort of casually hooking up with one of them. I did not know this, but they were growing weed in their bathroom. And so when the cops asked me, does anyone in the house smoke weed? And I just like bald faced. No. No one at all. They know there's like a plantation downstairs in the bathroom. And they're like, okay, she's lying to us. What else is she lying about? And that was the first thing as soon as they brought me in for questioning that night into like the formalized questioning in the office, that was the first thing that they brought to my attention. They were like, you've been lying to us. You lied about the weed. What else are you lying about? And I was just mortified. I was on, I sort of put on my back foot and I was like, no, I'm so sorry. Like, I, I, I'm sorry. I, I was lying. I, I, I just didn't want anyone to get into trouble. And so, but then, like, there was this atmosphere of hostility towards me. Like, clearly they didn't trust me anymore. And I was trying to like, respond and, and, and represent myself as somebody who was like, collaborating with police. They kept accusing me of not collaborating and ultimately like hours into this, I'm, you know, being yelled at and I'm, you know, I'm sleep deprived. Like, they introduce this new idea to me, like, and again, it's like some people are being really hostile towards me. One person is actually, again, the guy who like, cozied up and was being so friendly, like, he introduces this idea that like, no, I'm really am trying to cooperate the police. I just am so traumatized that I can't remember the truth anymore. And so he introduces this idea that like, I'm, I'm trying to tell the truth, but I'm traumatized. And then the, like, they had a translator come in and this translator is like, oh my God, Yes. Like, I remember once where I was in a car accident, but like, I don't remember anything about the car accident. I just remember waking up in the hospital. That's probably what's happening to you right now. You don't even remember the truth.
- [44:29]
Mariana
Truth.
- [44:30]
Amanda Knox
And, but then of course, somebody else is yelling at me and is like, you better remember the truth or you're gonna go to prison for 30 years. And so like, I'm just getting all of this all at once and I'm suddenly like, I, I, I took the suggestion that maybe I was traumatized. Like, I, I couldn't make sense of this situation otherwise. And I tried to imagine what I could have possibly forgotten. And based upon things that they were suggesting to me. For instance, they took my cell phone, right? And in my cell phone they found a text exchange between me and I was part time working at a pub in town. The boss, my boss at this pub was named Patrick. And they saw that I had a text exchange with him the night of the murder. I was supposed to work. He said, don't bother coming in. It's, you know, there's nobody out. So I said, okay, great. Have a good night. I'll see you later. Well, they interpreted that text message to mean that I had made an appointment to see my boss the night of the murder, and that was proof that I had been lying. And.
- [45:40]
Mariana
Ugh.
- [45:42]
Amanda Knox
And so no matter how many times I told them, like, no, I didn't meet with him that night, they said, no, you just don't remember meeting with him that night. You need to remember now. And so I tried to remember meeting with him. And I, you know, I, I. I tried. Like, I. I imagined in, like, fragments, like, okay, maybe I met him at the basketball court, and maybe I was in the kitchen, and. And maybe he murdered Meredith. Right. And they wrote that up, had me sign it, and next thing I know, I'm being taken to prison. Right?
- [46:22]
Mariana
Yeah. And, yeah, I mean, that was. I heard you say that this. It was the worst thing you could do was obviously sign that and name somebody. But I've heard you also talk about how I don't think most, like, you're really harsh on yourself sometimes when talking about this moment, and you think that it shows weakness.
- [46:42]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, I struggled with it for a
- [46:44]
Mariana
long time, but I don't think it does at all. I think quite frank. I don't think people understand the whole. What was happening in there. I mean, you're in a foreign country with no protection. You're super young. You don't have a lot of experience. Your parents aren't there. There's nobody there to sort of defend you or protect you. You barely speak the language. They're accusing you of all these things and saying that if you say this and that, you will be. Basically will be free again and saved again, and everything will be okay. And the power of suggestion is very, very strong. Like, it actually works. We've seen it happening. There's plenty of examples of how the power of suggestion can work and make you believe things that don't actually exist or that you haven't actually done. So I think everybody. Vast majority of people would have, in your situation at your age, would have done the same, quite frankly.
- [47:35]
Amanda Knox
Thanks for saying that. I mean, it was really hard for a long time because I didn't understand what had just happened to me. Like, I had never been so scared and confused in my entire life. Like, I. I did not know what was real anymore. Like, I was just completely brainwashed.
- [47:59]
Mariana
Yeah.
- [48:00]
Amanda Knox
And it took, like, a few hours for me to sort of, like, realize that it had all been, like, a huge mistake. And I told them so, but they weren't Listening to me. But like, even so, like in those early days when I was in jail, like, the police would come and have me like sign more paperwork. That's just like official paperwork. And I would be like, please, you gotta understand, this is all a big misunderstanding. And they were like, oh, yes, you got another new story for us, A new lie for us. And like, just everyone just like did not believe me anymore. Nothing.
- [48:39]
Mariana
I said you started retracting it immediately?
- [48:42]
Amanda Knox
Oh yeah, I started retracting immediately. And they wouldn't listen to me. They wouldn't. And like, what's interesting is. It took me years to like, realize what had happened. And it wasn't until a professor who studies police interrogations and false confessions actually reached out to me and like shared his research with me that I was able to like, understand the psychological manipulation that had gone on. And so I learned to, I recognized in myself, like, like, oh, wow. I really did not have the power in that dynamic. But like, to this day, a lot of people find fault in me for what happened there. Like to this day, like today, when we know like, who committed the crime and we've even, we know about police interrogations and false confessions, like, we, there are big stories around that the Central Park Five, like, really opened a lot of people's eyes to that. And yet, like, for some reason there's a lot of hostility directed at me and not a lot of understanding. Like, it's, it's really hard. Like I'm, I remain wrongly convicted in Italy based upon that interrogation. And, and not a lot of people defend me, you know, Like I. And so that's, that's like a battle that I'm still fighting. That's an open wound that I'm still grappling with because this like, resistance to holding the police accountable for torturing a 20 year old girl, like,
- [50:29]
Mariana
yeah, it's, it's crazy to me. I mean, the fact that you still have that case in Italy and that they are still trying to blame something on you when they should be asking for forgiveness for what they did to you in that room. Quite frankly, that's not okay. Yeah, it's not okay. And I also think I would add to that that as women we have a tendency to want to please. Right? Yeah, we just want everything to be okay.
- [50:54]
Amanda Knox
Yes.
- [50:54]
Mariana
And we want people to like us.
- [50:56]
Amanda Knox
Yes. And also, like, if there's a conflict, you're like, fine, it's my fault. Oh my God. Okay, fine. Like, yes, absolutely. I remember just being like, please just stop, stop yelling at me. Like, I Just, I just want to help and.
- [51:08]
Mariana
Yeah, yeah, I, I, yeah, I really see it. I mean, I, I'm sorry to have make you love this, but it's.
- [51:18]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [51:18]
Mariana
I've been in situations where I've nothing like you, of course, but I've been in situations where I've been detained by groups and that's scary. Very short periods of time. I mean, an hour or two, but
- [51:30]
Amanda Knox
you don't know, you don't know how long it's going to be.
- [51:31]
Mariana
What I remember in those situations is me trying to be extra nice, like extra smiley, make, make doing everything in my power to make them like me. Right.
- [51:41]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [51:41]
Mariana
So I completely can understand why you did what you did.
- [51:46]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [51:46]
Mariana
In the meantime, you did mention Patrick Lumumba and they started investigating Patrick Lumumba, Right. Who was your boss.
- [51:52]
Amanda Knox
Yes. Well, even though they arrested him before, right?
- [51:55]
Mariana
Yeah, right. And you retracted it immediately. But they, they did not want to hear it. And then, but they found out that he actually had an alibi. That.
- [52:02]
Amanda Knox
Yes. Yeah. Well, what's really frustrating about the whole saga that Patrick Lumumba was put through is merely on the basis of this statement, which by the way, was garbled and confused in the first place. They go off to arrest him like immediately and announce like, case closed to the world, we got the killer. And, and they don't even bother to check if he has an alibi before arresting him. And then when they do check to see that he has an alibi. Like, a lot of people come forward to say that he has an alibi and they don't believe them. And it's, it's not until they found Rudy good day. That they actually release Patrick. Like there was, it was almost like a prisoner swap. Like, they get Rudy good day. And like the news of like, oh, the DNA of this person on the crime scene and like, they, they capture him and he's fled the country to Germany and they capture him in Germany and like, they're bringing him back. And they're bringing him back and they release Patrick.
- [53:04]
Mariana
Yeah, it's, yeah, like, and the insane thing too is, okay, so we have this guy, we find that there's DNA for another guy. Okay, we're gonna release this guy, we're gonna bring in this guy, but we're gonna keep the story of trying to fit this new guy with Rafaele and Amanda and try to all just work together because Rafael and Amanda for sure have to be somehow guilty.
- [53:26]
Amanda Knox
For sure. Guilty somehow. And instead of thinking, oh, maybe this statement from this girl was coerced Instead they go, oh, she's a cunning psychopath who manipulated the police by lying to them.
- [53:41]
Mariana
And if you were going to say something in that moment, why not say, if you actually knew who had killed her, why not say Rudy instead of saying Patrick Lamont? But none of it makes sense.
- [53:51]
Amanda Knox
No, it doesn't. And yet. And yet, like, that idea of me being this, like, criminal mastermind who's orchestrating a murder orgy and then orchestrating, like, taking the police on a false trail, like, all of that was put on me as if I had control of this situation.
- [54:14]
Mariana
Yeah. Remind people, what were they saying the story was, which is insane.
- [54:19]
Amanda Knox
Yes. Okay. So what the police ultimately presented to the jury.
- [54:23]
Mariana
Yeah.
- [54:24]
Amanda Knox
Was that I secretly harbored hatred for Meredith even though no one had ever seen us argue or, like, anything.
- [54:34]
Mariana
Like, you've only known each other.
- [54:35]
Amanda Knox
We've only known each other for, like, a few weeks.
- [54:37]
Mariana
Yeah.
- [54:38]
Amanda Knox
So. But I'm, you know, I'm the American and she's the uptight, judgmental British girl, like, totally just stereotyping us. So of course Amanda's going to, like, want to, like, secretly harbor hatred for Meredith. And just so happens that, like, this one night, it wasn't planned, but like, this one night, Amanda just finds that she, Meredith, is alone at home, and so she gets the two boys that she's in a secret love triangle with. Because also, for the record, there has to be a secret love triangle. So again, no evidence of me having any relationship with Rudy Gaday whatsoever. I didn't know his name, I didn't have his phone number. But the prosecution claims that I was in a secret love triangle with him and Rafaele. I bring them over to my house and have them compete with each other to win my affections by raping Meredith for me and then holding her down so that I can stab her to death. And then in the aftermath, I clean up all traces of myself from the client, the crime scene, leaving Rudy Good Day's DNA there so I can incriminate him, but then go and tell the police that it was my boss, Patrick Lumumba, to sort of throw them off the scent. That that's the story.
- [56:04]
Mariana
And also call the police.
- [56:06]
Amanda Knox
Yes, and also call the police.
- [56:07]
Mariana
Were the ones who call the police you and Rafael?
- [56:09]
Amanda Knox
Yes.
- [56:10]
Mariana
Yeah. None of it makes sense. And what's. It's. It would be laughable and funny if it wasn't actually incredibly tragic that they actually believed they presented this case. And it was believed initially.
- [56:22]
Amanda Knox
Yes.
- [56:22]
Mariana
In the first case, you went to prison for it.
- [56:24]
Amanda Knox
It was believed. I was convicted. Meredith's family believed it. And I mean, lots of people believed it. A lot of people didn't question all of those, like very questionable and like wide holes in the story that were just jam packed with speculation. What they heard was, oh, Meredith's DNA on a knife that has Amanda's DNA on the handle. Proof that this whole story must be true and which was contaminated by the
- [56:59]
Mariana
way they later found out. Can you tell me why? I mean, you've had so much time to think about it. Why do you think people were so prone to believing this crazy story? Like what? Well,
- [57:14]
Amanda Knox
to understand that, you really have to dig into people's psychology a bit. And so here's where I have to do some guesswork. But I've noticed some trends in true crime. I think that when women are accused of crimes, especially violent crimes, it gets people's attention. Right. And when something, when a story or an idea has captured your attention, even if it doesn't make sense, like the fact that it captured your attention sort of anchors you in a kind of bias in favor of this story. Because it's titillating. It's interesting. There's like, and I think there is this sense of like, if she's been accused, she must be guilty of something. Like there's, there's no smoke, if there's not fire. Like she can't be just completely innocent. She's not acting like an innocent person. She kissed her boyfriend outside of the crime scene. I think there was like a lot of willingness to assume the worst about me because of character assassination when viewing my behavior through this lens of suspicion. I think there was a lot of investment in this story on the part of the prosecution because they didn't want to admit that they were wrong. And on the part of the media because it was a very sellable story. Right. And then if you hear the same story over and over and over again, basically force fed by the media to the broader audience, like people are living their day to day lives. They're not going to question every single thing that the media presents to them. Especially when the media is doing it without questioning it.
- [59:18]
Mariana
Right.
- [59:19]
Amanda Knox
So just people sort of like took it for granted that it must be true.
- [59:23]
Mariana
Yeah. One of the most disturbing parts in the doc, in the Netflix doc, was the, the journalist Nick Pisa.
- [59:32]
Amanda Knox
Pisa. Nick Pisa.
- [59:34]
Mariana
There's one line that he says he's heavily featured in the documentary. Basically he was covered. His stories were all over the world, front page cover and all over the world. He covered your trial and was there. He spoke Italian as well. He's a British journalist who also spoke Italian. But I remember this one quote that he has in the documentary where he says, well, I was just giving the information that was being fed to me by the, you know, law enforcement and the prosecutor. It wasn't my job to actually find out if it was the truth or not. I was like, wait, what? Yeah, this is your job? That's what it's called, being a journalist.
- [60:11]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. So Nick Pisa, he was. He. He represents in the documentary a lot of journalists. He wasn't the only journalist.
- [60:22]
Mariana
Yes, he gets the bad rap because.
- [60:24]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, because he's the one who's willing to say the things which are true. Like, he. In, like, that's. He is honestly representing what the industry at the time was and honestly still is. Like, absolutely. Like right now I'm, like, investigating a case in. In the UK of a woman who has been vilified in the press. And it's essentially the same kind of thing. Her name is Lucy Letby. Are you familiar?
- [60:50]
Mariana
The nurse.
- [60:52]
Amanda Knox
Yes, the nurse, yeah. So I have a new podcast called Doubt the Case of Lucy Lepy, where, like, the thing that initially brought me into the case was this same pattern that I saw from my own case, where the tabloids in Britain were just regurgitating the story that the prosecution offered and didn't do any kind of investigation into what could potentially be another explanation for what all of this information. It was just like the story of a serial killer nurse is such a great story to sell headlines.
- [61:27]
Mariana
They believe that she was killing all these people. Right. All of our patients.
- [61:30]
Amanda Knox
So, yeah, so there was. There was a spike in deaths in the neonatal ward of a hospital in. In. In Chester in the. In the uk. And they. The. The hospital, like, the, the doctors, instead of, like, looking into how the staffing shortages and potential other problems that were in the hospital instead were just like, oh, there was one nurse who was on duty all during all of these, you know, collapses of these babies. She must be a serial killer. And so the, The. The doctors go and convince the police to come in and accuse this young woman who has no history of violence, no. No motive to commit these crimes, no one ever saw her do anything to harm any babies. And she's found guilty, right? She's just found guilty. And like this. I think the reason why I make this comparison is because there was this. This immediate sort of rush to judgment because it was profitable. Like the story of a serial killer nurse or a girl gone wild orchestrating murder Orgies is profitable to news industries as opposed to the more boring stories, which are yet another burglar breaks into a house and rapes and murders a girl. Or, you know, here's an institutional failing and who's up? Like, nobody's going to be held accountable.
- [62:54]
Mariana
Right.
- [62:55]
Amanda Knox
Like, there are, like, the stories that are more truthful are often less compelling to the audience. And if the motivation behind your journalism is audience capture, like is. Is capturing attention of audiences, then you're inclined to tell the stories that capture attention, not necessarily the most truthful ones that involve more work.
- [63:17]
Mariana
Exactly. It's about selling and not. It's not about the truth. Yeah. Yeah, that's. Yeah. Did you realize during the trial that there was a chance that you would have been found guilty? Did you or were you still. How were you thinking at the time? Was it this crazy situation where, like, I cannot believe.
- [63:39]
Amanda Knox
So it was. It was very surreal. But I also remember, so leading up to my verdict, like, it was two years, right? I was two years in prison. There was like eight month long investigation, and then there was this, like, break period and then the trial started. And I remember during the investigation period, I thought any minute I would be released from prison because they would realize that I had nothing to do with it. And then they would go, oh, our bad. Off you go. Like, I, like, I literally thought that for months. I thought, any day now. Any day now. So especially when they identified Rudy Good day as being the murderer, I was like, oh, thank God they found the actual person who did this. They're going to let me go now. Well, that didn't happen. And the thing that my family always told me as we were like, living through this and which is, again, to show that, like, none of us were prepared, they said, well, we're in a dark tunnel. They use this metaphor. We're in this dark tunnel, but there's a light at the end of the tunnel. We all believed that when it all came down to it, like, a judge and a jury would see truth beyond a reasonable doubt, and I would go home. So leading up to that verdict, I 100% believed that, like, despite this, like, you know, in fact, because of this crazy story that the police were presenting, they would see that it was crazy, that it was overblown, that there was no evidence to support it, and they would send me home because we knew already who committed this crime. It's not like that was in doubt.
- [65:16]
Mariana
You were still believing in the system. In a way, I did. Right.
- [65:20]
Amanda Knox
And so when, like, my family had already bought Me, a plane ticket. Like, like, we, we were certain I was going home. And so when the verdict came down and I was convicted, like, none of us were prepared for the existential crisis of that moment. And it hit me differently than the rest of my family. Like, for the rest of my family, there was this, like, this terrible moment of, like, grief and despair. But also the way that they talk to me about it is this tunnel is just a lot longer than we thought it was going to be. But the truth is gonna win out for me. I stopped believing in that anymore after I was convicted.
- [66:03]
Mariana
Oh, that's awful.
- [66:04]
Amanda Knox
Well, I mean, the truth didn't save me.
- [66:06]
Mariana
Yeah, of course.
- [66:07]
Amanda Knox
The truth didn't save me here. Why would it, why would it save me there?
- [66:11]
Mariana
Yeah, of course.
- [66:12]
Amanda Knox
So I, I, I had a new frame of mind around confronting this situation that I was in, which is realizing that, like, life isn't fair. And this isn't just, like, somebody else's life that I'm living by mistake. This is my life. This is it. So I have to make this life, which is totally unfair, worth living. That's it. Like, that's my job. My job. Like, I cannot have faith in other people anymore. I just have to figure out what I can do to make my life worth living, regardless of what people are going to say and do and believe. Like, that's, that became my new purpose.
- [66:59]
Mariana
Yeah.
- [66:59]
Amanda Knox
But of course, like, there was conflict within my family. You know, my mom was really worried that I was, like, depressed and giving up. And it wasn't that I was giving up. Like, it's not like I told my family and my lawyers, ah, who cares anymore? Like, they were still fighting to prove my innocence, but I just wasn't, like, hanging on to, like, I wasn't waiting to live until they got me out of prison again.
- [67:27]
Mariana
Like, I just, in many ways, the hope had her, like, finding out that in fact, all the hope you deposited in this.
- [67:35]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. Crushing.
- [67:36]
Mariana
Yeah, it was crushing. Yeah. Like, prefer not to then live with hope. Just, like, live with whatever.
- [67:41]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [67:42]
Mariana
Situation you're in right now.
- [67:43]
Amanda Knox
I prefer to, like, prefer prepare for disappointment. And then if I'm pleasantly surprised, great. But, like, I'm prepared for the worst. So that's how I went, if you think about it. Right.
- [67:52]
Mariana
Because that's not who you were. And hopefully that's not who you are anymore.
- [67:56]
Amanda Knox
Maybe you are, but, you know, I'm scared of happiness. I, I feel like I, I don't think I've ever really gotten over how crushing it was.
- [68:09]
Mariana
Yeah.
- [68:10]
Amanda Knox
To Hope and believe not just hope, but believe that the right thing would happen. Like, it. It was rushing.
- [68:20]
Mariana
Yeah.
- [68:21]
Amanda Knox
I. I got suicidal because of it. I've ne. Like, I'm not a suicidal. Like, I'm not a person who just naturally struggles with suicidal ideation. Like, I'm a. I'm a. I'm a freaking Disney princess of positivity. And I. And I was brought to suicidal ideation because of that. And, like, I'm like, even to this day, like, things have, you know, have worked out. Spoiler alert. I got out. Like, I'm okay. I'm vindicated, whatever. But, like, to this day, I. I get a little scared when things are going well because it's almost like I'm afraid that I'm not. I'm not prepared for the bad thing that's about to happen. And that's something that I'm still sort of working through.
- [69:08]
Mariana
Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah. I mean, it's PTSD a little bit, too, Right?
- [69:12]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [69:13]
Mariana
I mean, I think it's you. I've heard you say how, when this all happened to you, you thought, well, I had such a wonderful life until now. This is sort of the karma that was expected because you can't always be happy, and you can't always have everything wonderful happen to you. So in many ways, that's how you rationalized it.
- [69:30]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. I mean, especially early on, I'm trying to, like, figure out, why is this happening to me? It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. And you come up with, like, your brain comes up with crazy, like, rationales, like, oh, I guess maybe in, like, a Final Destination style. Like, everyone is destined to suffer a certain amount, and all of my suffering is just happening all at once. Like, is that what's going on? Like, I don't know, you start to just, like, try. It was just such a surreal situation that you try to understand it. And. And that haunted me for years. Even after I got out, I was haunted by, like, not understanding why this happened.
- [70:12]
Mariana
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the saddest. I mean, apart from the horrible four years you had, but the fact that you are forever changed. You know, I talk to a lot. I've spoken to a bunch of sexual assault rape victims here on the podcast, and that it's always the hardest. Right. Because you, in general, most people believe in human beings. Right. Believe in the system, believe in the world around them. And then when something like that so awful happens to you, rebuilding that trust is really hard. You're different. You're broken for the Rest of your life. Right. There's something.
- [70:49]
Amanda Knox
You're different for the rest of your life.
- [70:51]
Mariana
But let's not say broken. Yes. Different for the rest of your life.
- [70:54]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [70:54]
Mariana
Stronger.
- [70:55]
Amanda Knox
You have stronger, but you're. You're different. Like, you're like. I push back on broken just because I'm happy.
- [71:06]
Mariana
You do.
- [71:08]
Amanda Knox
It's not like. But I also don't want to, like, make it sound like anytime a bad thing happens to somebody that they're going to come out stronger on the other end. Like, that's not necessarily the case. Like, it is. It is a breaking that happens. And it's hard work. It's really hard work to heal and be stronger afterwards. A lot of people are not stronger afterwards. They're. They're more easily triggered. They're fragile. And, like, this is true of me, too. Like, I. I am. I'm triggered around things that I was not before. I've worked really hard, and I think a lot of people have worked really hard to process the thing that happened and to accept the new person that they become on the other side of it. That it's just. It's just a very different person.
- [72:06]
Mariana
Yeah, you're absolutely right. Yeah. Saying stronger is not the right word.
- [72:10]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [72:10]
Mariana
I mean, it's not. And saying broken is also not the right word. I think you. It's being different. And I think the sad part of it is the realization that the person you were before doesn't exist anymore. Actually, I remembered I wrote something that you said in the doc that I loved, which is exactly about this, which is. And I'm going to read it back to you, even though you said it, but it was that the mistake people make when they're dealing with trauma is that they try to go back to the person they were before it happened. But the trick to resilience is not going back to who you were. It's finding out and having a say in who you become.
- [72:43]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [72:44]
Mariana
I thought that was really beautiful.
- [72:45]
Amanda Knox
Thank you. Yeah, that's. And for those who might. There are a lot of documentaries out there. So this. That was from the documentary Mouth of the Wolf, which just came out, which your husband directed. Yes. Which has watched.
- [72:57]
Mariana
And it's amazing. And everybody should watch it.
- [72:59]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. And, like, I think I should prepare people first by saying that it's not your typical documentary in the sense that it's not. It's not about, like, rehashing the facts of the case, which is what you typically think of when you think of a true crime documentary. Like, this is way more Personal. This is like you getting direct access to me as I'm processing everything that happened before. So it's not about the case. It's about how do you process and rebuild your life afterwards.
- [73:31]
Mariana
And it's in a special moment in time for you because you were going back to Italy for the first time.
- [73:38]
Amanda Knox
Yes. Yes.
- [73:39]
Mariana
And you're trying. And you're going to give a speech.
- [73:41]
Amanda Knox
Yes.
- [73:42]
Mariana
And you're trying to sort of reconnect with some very important players. Yes. From when you were there in prison.
- [73:49]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [73:49]
Mariana
Which I don't want to tell people too much, but it is really amazing. I really loved it. And it's called in the Mouth of
- [73:55]
Amanda Knox
Mouth of the Wall because it's. And also, like, weird. Fun. Fact is, you know, part of that story is that I reached out to my prosecutor and I developed a correspondence with him.
- [74:08]
Mariana
Yes. I want to talk about that so badly. Okay, we can do that. Okay.
- [74:11]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, we can do that. Sorry, skipping out.
- [74:13]
Mariana
Lots of happens. So this is a crazy, crazy. I mean, sort of in my mind, he's like the bad guy of the picture, but then you watch a Netflix show.
- [74:24]
Amanda Knox
Well, he was that way in my mind, too. Exactly.
- [74:27]
Mariana
He's a prosecutor that really, from the start, has put it in his mind that you are guilty and is going to try and do everything he can to make that narrative work. And all the evidence, doesn't matter what we need to do to twist them in order to make it work. So that Amanda is ultimately the one that's going to be found responsible for this.
- [74:44]
Amanda Knox
Yes. Including wild speculation like she's having secret threesomes with people. And, like, I remember distinctly, like, he's standing in court talking about how I'm this, like, slutty drug addled seductress and adulteress. He used the word adulteress. And that. That Meredith hated me because I was so slutty and was always scolding me. And I decided to punish her. And how, like, he was saying, oh, and this is probably what Amanda said. This is what you get, you little goody two shoes. Now I'm gonna show you and punish you by making you have. Have sex. And, like, just, like, insane things, so hostile and aggressive. And. And. And the reason for it was to make a jury hate me. And, like, it was so intentional. And so in my mind, I'm thinking of this person as the freaking boogeyman.
- [75:38]
Mariana
Right.
- [75:39]
Amanda Knox
Like, this is a nightmarish figure in my mind.
- [75:41]
Mariana
And by the way, one thing that's interesting to see, too, is that not only did he build this. This crazy, untrue narrative view? But he also did one for Meredith, which he created this person that he wasn't unfairly so creative. This person that she wasn't really. That wasn't at all who she actually was.
- [75:57]
Amanda Knox
Right? Yeah. Oh, my God.
- [75:58]
Mariana
Cold, judgmental.
- [76:00]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. No, he just, like, took, I guess, stereotypes about. About British, like, cartoonish stereotypes of, like, American girls gone wild.
- [76:11]
Mariana
Right.
- [76:11]
Amanda Knox
Versus, like, like, uptight British girls who, like, you know, like, in his mind, like, of course we hated each other because she's prudish and. And judgmental because she's British. And of course I'm, like, slob. I'm a slovenly. And like, of course we hate each other. Like, this is what. Like, that's not who she was. Like, she. She was not judgmental. She. She loved to go out and have fun and dance, and she was casually hooking up with somebody. Like, she was not.
- [76:41]
Mariana
Not.
- [76:41]
Amanda Knox
She was not judging me at all. No. Yeah. And so, like, this, like, hostile relationship, the pitting of us against each other and portraying us as, like, direct opposite versions of womanhood, while, like, in this court of law, like, that was all made up.
- [77:01]
Mariana
Right.
- [77:02]
Amanda Knox
And by him. And so I'm trying to understand this. And everyone around me told me, well, he's just a coward and an idiot and evil. Evil. People just told me he's evil.
- [77:21]
Mariana
Like, that interactions with you there.
- [77:24]
Amanda Knox
So my only interactions with him ever were when he took my statement in the police office, which led to my arrest, and in the courtroom, where he was explicitly portraying me as a. As a murder whore.
- [77:44]
Mariana
Oh, wow. So he never actually spoke to you apart from those two?
- [77:47]
Amanda Knox
I mean. I mean, there was actually. There was one other moment that I interacted with him, and it was after I was arrested. I requested a meeting. A meeting? Because I thought, okay, my interrogation was this whole big misunderstanding. I just need to explain what happened. So I request the meeting. And he, like, I try to tell him, like, I was confused. That's not true. I. I've retracted those things that I said. Like, please believe me. And all. All he did was say, well, if you. You know, why did you. Why are you accusing Pat? Like, he. When I said I didn't. When I said that the police made me think that Patrick was the murderer, he just was like, no, no, the police didn't know who Patrick was. Why would they make you think that he was the murderer? Why did you say Patrick? Like, he was sort of suggesting that, like, I had intentionally lied to mislead the investigation and he would not hear otherwise. So my experience with him was even when I, like, openly tried to talk to him, he just would not listen to me. And so, again, like, this hostile, aggressive, misogynistic human being. But, like, I never believed that he was evil. Like, deep down, I. I recognized that. Like, I didn't understand why, but, like, he must have believed he was right. I just didn't understand why he believed he was right. And, you know, by this time, I had spent a lot of time with other wrongly convicted people. I had heard a lot of other stories. I'd even spoken to, like, people who used to be prosecutors who then realized that, like, oh, their wrongful convictions are a real issue. And then, like, completely turned around and became, like, innocence advocates. And so I was, like, moved by this idea of, like, it's not that he's not a boogeyman. He's a real person, and he can be reasoned with. And, like, deep down, I felt like if he could just see the person that I really am, like, he would realize that it was all a big mistake. But how can I do that when the only time that we've ever encountered each other is in this, like, highly adversarial scenario? We only ever interacted with each other in. Within the justice system, which was so adversarial. And so I got this little mind worm of, well, what if I approach him not as an adversary, but as someone who's just genuinely interested in him as a human being? Like, we are connected, whether we like it or not, by a tragic story. And I don't know who he is. He doesn't know who I am, and I don't really know who he is. So can we at least know each other in the aftermath? And at first he didn't respond to that, but then eventually he did. And we developed this correspondence of getting to know each other, talking sort of around the case instead of directly about it. And eventually that led to me booking a flight to Italy to confront him.
- [81:11]
Mariana
Which is in the documentary.
- [81:12]
Amanda Knox
Yes.
- [81:13]
Mariana
Can I ask you a question? Do you think that. That. Where do you think that stems from? On one side, I completely see, and I really admire that. And I. I see that this is really, truly a characteristic that I have. And I think why I like you so much as a person is this idea. Because it resonates with me, and very much, the work that I do is this. That I don't believe that there's. Maybe there is, and I think there is. But even in true evil, I'm trying to understand the why? And so I really see that you are doing this with the man that hurt you the most. And I think that is. Admiral, do you think a part of it is also, again, this sort of wanting to be accepted in a way? Like, this is the one person that I still. Even though if this one person that from the beginning thought I was guilty, if he now believes that I wasn't guilty and says it publicly, maybe all the other people that still believe I'm guilty, sure.
- [82:14]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. I, like, I had lovely little fantasies about him coming around and realizing his mistake and being like, hey, everyone, be nice to her now. You know, she didn't do anything wrong. Like, of course I had that. It's so human. I mean, he had such. This outsized influence on my life in a negative way, maybe could have an outsized influence in a positive way.
- [82:35]
Mariana
But that hasn't happened.
- [82:37]
Amanda Knox
No, but. But something else happened. But to your question about. And here's. I think this is so, like, this is a really important point. Is this. This wanting to understand the why behind the evil? Like, there is. It's not just curiosity, right? It's not just like, I'm a curious person. Although it helps to be a curious person. A curious person is not satisfied with an easy answer. I want the right answer. I really want to know. Because it's only by knowing that we can prevent ourselves or others from being hurt in the same way. Again, like, there, like, if we want to actually be effective in the world, like, if we talk about, like, having some kind of control in your life, having some sense of agency, you need to be able to see reality clearly in order to know what pieces to move and how to move them. And if you do not understand the evil, if you do not understand the why behind the evil, you can't actually do anything that's going to be. Have any kind of effect. And so that's where it comes from me, like, a lot of people look at me and think, oh, wow, you're so gracious and so forgiving. And it's like, this is not about grace or forgiveness. This is about me having been hurt. And I do not want to be struck by lightning again. And I don't want other people to be struck by lightning if we can avoid it.
- [84:05]
Mariana
Yeah.
- [84:05]
Amanda Knox
So, like, let me just figure out this freaking puzzle and see if any of it can be undone. Like, any of it. So, yeah, I don't know. I feel like I had selfish motivations going into it, and it just that that selfish motivation can also be.
- [84:25]
Mariana
It can be both Things.
- [84:26]
Amanda Knox
Both things, you know, like.
- [84:28]
Mariana
Yeah.
- [84:29]
Amanda Knox
Because it does require me to, like, put aside my rage, my, like, justified rage, in order to, like, openly acknowledge this person's perspective, which is, like, incredibly wrong and hostile towards me, you know? Yeah, yeah.
- [84:48]
Mariana
It's so. I mean, you said. What you just said is. I've tried to explain that so often when people, you know, criticize me for platforming or, you know, my whole work is about meeting with criminals and talking to them and trying to understand why they do what they do. And. And it irks a lot of people, and they think, like, why should you be. Why should you give these people a platform or voice? But it is very much that. Right. It's not condoning what they did. It's trying to understand why they do what they do. And because people think if you try
- [85:17]
Amanda Knox
to understand, that somehow means you're condoning it. No, no, no.
- [85:21]
Mariana
We're extending.
- [85:22]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [85:22]
Mariana
Or extending empathy and respect for somebody, again, is just a way of seeing humanity in people.
- [85:28]
Amanda Knox
Yes.
- [85:28]
Mariana
Which is exactly what you're saying. In many ways, trying to see humanity in others kind of gives us control of our environment.
- [85:38]
Amanda Knox
Yes.
- [85:38]
Mariana
In a way that makes. Yeah. Just life better.
- [85:42]
Amanda Knox
And you'd be surprised, like, the positive impact it can have.
- [85:45]
Mariana
Right.
- [85:45]
Amanda Knox
Oddly, like, the less adversarial you are, this is not always the case. But, like, I found in my case that, like, the less adversarial I was toward my prosecutor, the more willing he was to rethink his position and his feelings about the whole thing.
- [86:05]
Mariana
And so what has he said? He. Yeah. Well, can we say it or do you want to Wait? Do you want to.
- [86:12]
Amanda Knox
So first I have to say that there is a lot that he has said to me in private that even didn't make it in the documentary, because I, you know, I've. Part of that, like, process of talking to him was establishing trust and respect. And so when he has asked me not to include certain things, I've respected that. So, like, I have to premise everything by saying, like, even now, there are a lot of things that he has said to me that I do not have his blessing to say publicly. So there's that, but also there's a surprising amount that he has given me his blessing to say publicly that I've included in the documentary. But one of those things that I can share is that he. He now says that, like, I'm not the person that he thought he was prosecuting.
- [87:10]
Mariana
Right.
- [87:11]
Amanda Knox
Like, I am the exact opposite of the person that he thought he was prosecuting. And like, today he doesn't see me as capable of committing the crimes that he accused me of.
- [87:24]
Mariana
What was your reaction when you read that? Was it? And did he tell you this in writing or in person?
- [87:29]
Amanda Knox
In person.
- [87:30]
Mariana
Wow. What was your reaction when you heard that?
- [87:32]
Amanda Knox
I was shocked. I, I walked away. I mean, here's the thing. Like, I walked into that conversation not knowing what was going to happen. Like, I, I, and again, like, preparing for the worst. I was prepared for him to just like dig in his heels and never admit anything. And I actually had a conversation with my husband ahead of this, ahead of time. Like, he was warning me, like, if you're going in hoping to get anything from him, you are setting yourself up for failure because it's not in your control what he is going to say or do. And so I had to then think, okay, well, how do I do this in a way that's not setting myself up for failure? And it's at that point that it totally flipped for me that it wasn't even about what he was able to say and do in that meeting. It was about what I was able to say and do in that meeting. And when that shift happened in my mind, like, all of a sudden I was unstoppable and I could not fail. And I walked into that scenario, like feeling so powerful, like, like a superhero. And I walked away feeling like a superhero. Like I, you know, not. Nothing could stop me from doing what I had to do, which was see this other human being for who he was and to like, give him the kindness that I could give him. And I did. And like, it felt so good.
- [89:24]
Mariana
Right. This is making me very emotional moment because. Yeah, that's really incredible that you did that.
- [89:29]
Amanda Knox
I, I, like, it's, it's a singular moment in my life. Like, I can't, like, it's, it's a little bit akin to like, like the feeling of like giving birth to my first child. Like, this is big. Like this, this is a life defining moment of like I've given something.
- [89:56]
Mariana
Right. Yeah. Also, like realizing your power. Right. Realizing that there's, you have power, you, you can reclaim who you are.
- [90:04]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [90:05]
Mariana
You have a say in what happens and how people are treated.
- [90:08]
Amanda Knox
Yep.
- [90:08]
Mariana
There's something very special about that. Yeah. I tell everybody to watch that documentary. It was really, really special. It's on Hulu Disney and Hulu Plus. Yeah.
- [90:18]
Amanda Knox
Or sorry, Disney plus and Hulu.
- [90:20]
Mariana
I did want to talk to you real quick about your time in prison because you did some spectacular things there too.
- [90:25]
Amanda Knox
That, I mean, spectacular.
- [90:27]
Mariana
I mean, you created some connections with people. You were really useful in prison. You were a translator.
- [90:35]
Amanda Knox
I mean, I had a hustle, you know, Like, I mean. Okay, so here's the thing.
- [90:39]
Mariana
I think a lot of people in your situation would have crawled into a hole and not want to be human again. That was not you.
- [90:47]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, I mean, I did see a lot of people doing that, and that terrified me. Like, I was afraid of just, like, tumbling down this hole of despair, which I saw a lot of people around me just, like, giving up. Just, like, totally giving up. And it was hard. Like, I. I wanted to write more, and I wanted to, Like, I wanted to. When I was in prison, I would, like. I remember distinctly days where I was just so frustrated because, like, I just wanted. I wanted to be better than I was. I wanted to be a better writer, and I wanted to be a better thinker. And I was just, like, stuck. I just felt so stuck. I wasn't just stuck in the cell. I was stuck in the limitations of my brain. I'm not. I'm not the smartest person. I'm not the best person in the world. I'm just trying my hardest, and sometimes it didn't feel like enough, and so that was really hard. And, like, got very distinct memories of that. But also, I did notice when I looked around me and I, like, again, keeping an open mind, like, okay, well, what is this world that's in front of me? That's really there? I noticed that, like, compared to a lot of the other women that I was in prison with, I was actually very lucky. I had a family that visited me and supported me. I was healthy. Like, I had all of my teeth.
- [92:13]
Mariana
Like, you were the only one.
- [92:15]
Amanda Knox
I was the only one in the whole prison who had all of my teeth.
- [92:18]
Mariana
Faith.
- [92:19]
Amanda Knox
Like, even some of the guards didn't have. Like, this is, like, the level of, like, deprivation and poverty that I was suddenly, like, immersed in. And, like, the vast majority of the people that I interacted with there were either foreigners, and so they didn't speak
- [92:36]
Mariana
Italian, and usually from, like, African countries
- [92:38]
Amanda Knox
or usually African immigrants. Yes, immigrants, typically, who were brought in either for prostitution or drug trafficking. Trafficking. That was, like, the common denominator. Or they were Italian, but even the Italians, a lot of them were illiterate. Like, they had never gone to school. And so I suddenly realized, wow, I have a very valuable skill set. I can read, I can write, I can translate. And so, funnily enough, I ended up becoming, in prison what I initially had gone to school to become a translator.
- [93:15]
Mariana
See? Spectacular work.
- [93:16]
Amanda Knox
Wow.
- [93:16]
Mariana
Wow.
- [93:17]
Amanda Knox
Amazing. Be careful what you wish for. And. And yeah, so, like, it was. It was good work and it did. It was important and it was valuable to the people around me, and it was valuable to me because it gave me a sense of purpose.
- [93:34]
Mariana
I mean, I'm sure you had an impact in all their lives. All their lives.
- [93:37]
Amanda Knox
Lives, Yeah. I mean, absolutely. Like, yeah, I. I was helping people stay in touch with their family.
- [93:44]
Mariana
Yeah.
- [93:45]
Amanda Knox
Otherwise they wouldn't have been able to. So, like, that was, that was non.
- [93:48]
Mariana
Sick.
- [93:49]
Amanda Knox
Like, that was a significant thing. And yes, I should not diminish it.
- [93:55]
Mariana
Yeah, okay.
- [93:55]
Amanda Knox
Not diminish that. But, you know, I didn't start any revolutions or, you know, practice law in prison. I. I know people who became lawyers in prison. So I look at that and I go, geez, you've. You've come a long way, you know.
- [94:11]
Mariana
Yeah, we've interviewed some people, some people with those stories here on the podcast. But at the same time, you did become very involved in justice reform once you came out. So it's not something that is in your past or. A lot of people say that they're involved in justice reform, but they really aren't. And you. It's really something that you've been very passionate about.
- [94:30]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, well, I mean, if I see, if I see something not working and I'm given the opportunity to like, like, testify and try to get a law changed, for instance, like, I'm working a lot with the Washington Innocence Project to get certain laws passed that would protect people, especially in interrogation scenarios. Like, that's been like, the personal thing
- [94:49]
Mariana
for me, because of what happened to you. One thing interesting thing is people. I don't think most people know this, but there's a difference between an interview and interrogation.
- [94:56]
Amanda Knox
Right.
- [94:57]
Mariana
Can you talk about that?
- [94:58]
Amanda Knox
Yes. So.
- [94:59]
Mariana
And that's here in the United States as well?
- [95:01]
Amanda Knox
Yes, here in the United States and also in Italy. But this is sort of like, like typical. Everywhere is. And again, laws change in different countries, but, like, both in Italy and here in the United States, custodial interrogation. So interrogations are considered, like, are a very specific kind of interaction with police. The vast majority of the time, the police will say, oh, you're just being interviewed. And the reason for that is that an interrogation is a specific legal definition. It means that you are in custody, you are not allowed to leave, and you are being accused of a crime, which means that you're entitled to certain rights, like having a lawyer present, the right to remain silent. Like all. A lot of places will Even have, like, you have the right to have your interrogation be recorded. Like, there are all these rules around an interrogation. There are zero rules about everything up to that point.
- [96:03]
Mariana
Right.
- [96:04]
Amanda Knox
So anytime that you are not specifically being informed that you are in custody and are being suspected of a crime, everything before that, you're just being interviewed and there are no rules and there are no rights. You are just at the mercy of the police officer's discretion.
- [96:24]
Mariana
Guess which one the police prefers?
- [96:26]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [96:26]
Mariana
Yes.
- [96:27]
Amanda Knox
And they like. What's really gross about it is it can become very slippery. Right. Like an interview can become an interrogation at any time.
- [96:38]
Mariana
Like it did with you.
- [96:39]
Amanda Knox
Like it did with me. But like, when and how that is communicated to the person is again, up to the police officer. And sometimes they will say things like, well, you were always allowed to leave. Like, you were in a closed room with police officers who were yelling at you and you didn't feel like you were allowed to leave. But we never told you that you weren't allowed to leave. So it wasn't an interrogation. It was just an interview. There are these loopholes for getting around what is common sense, which is that somebody is trapped in a scenario where they are being asked incriminating questions and in sort of induced into giving incriminating answers to police officers without any kind of protections. And that's why it's so dangerous that there are not. There aren't more protections and rules around interviews because it's really just anything goes. And a lot of people, like a lot of police, they. They depend on and count on the fact that you are ignorant about those differences and what your rights are.
- [97:49]
Mariana
And so you're trying to change this, which is great.
- [97:51]
Amanda Knox
Yes. I think that all interactions with police officers should be at the very least recorded because there's really no excuse for them not to be anymore. We can record anything at any time, and it should be. We should be able to look back and say, oh, this has transitioned into an interrogation. But the person who's being interrogated doesn't even realize it.
- [98:14]
Mariana
Like, yeah, I mean, yeah, you'd think that that would be the case. Can you tell me a little bit also about when you came? I think most people think, okay, once you're out of prison, then everything is great, right? Yeah.
- [98:25]
Amanda Knox
And that's just how the story usually ends. Like, you see the person get out of prison and they have their first, like, McDonald's cheeseburger, and they're like, okay, happy ever after the end.
- [98:36]
Mariana
Yeah. Tell me about sort of re discovering who your new person Was your new self. Was. And also transitioning back to the US and then also that if you don't mind talking to me about that first relationship you had and how crazy that was.
- [98:50]
Amanda Knox
Ah, yeah. So. So the. Yeah, so a lot of the stuff is stuff that I write about in my memoir that just came out last night.
- [99:00]
Mariana
Right. I should have mentioned it, by the way.
- [99:01]
Amanda Knox
Oh, yeah, no, it's great. It's. So it's called Free My Search for Meaning. And again, it's all about. It's not about the trial, it's about the aftermath. Like, okay, I've been in the middle of this, like, crazy true crime scenario. Now. What does a real person do in the aftermath of all of that insanity? Like, people are so fascinated by the crime and the trial, and there's very little interrogation into, like, the lasting impact of how true crime ha. Like, is a part of that person's life forever in the aftermath. And it was a little bit complicated in my case because I was released from prison, but I was still on trial. So a lot of times when you hear of cases of somebody finally getting out of prison, it's over at that point. Like, they're finally, like, okay, at least I don't have to deal with any legal stuff anymore.
- [99:57]
Mariana
And just. So you were. You were found guilty. You did four years, and then there was a retrial. I mean, you guys appealed, you were found innocent, you came back and. But then they.
- [100:05]
Amanda Knox
They appealed the acquittal. Yes.
- [100:08]
Mariana
And that's. That's where you were, right?
- [100:09]
Amanda Knox
Yes. So I was.
- [100:10]
Mariana
You were on trial.
- [100:11]
Amanda Knox
I was on trial again, Right. Same, you know, same crime, everything, same charges. And I was found guilty again. So I was in the free world, facing extradition back to Italy. So I was in prison for four years and then on trial for another four years until I was definitively exonerated by the Supreme Court. And so eight years of my life were in legal limbo, and I couldn't, you know, plant roots. I couldn't get a job. I was being constantly hounded by paparazzi, and people just, like, stalking me and following me around. Like, I couldn't trust people. I tried to go back to school. I went back to school, but then kids in class were taking pictures of me and posting them to social media with very unkind commentary. And, like, I was just. I was just. I went from being an imprisoned, like, monster to a spectacle. And I was not a person just like anybody else. I was the girl accused of murder. And I was like, again, so much interest was not in the facts of the case, but in, like, ooh, what's her personality like? Like, oh, is she. Is she a weirdo? Is she the. Is she the kind of person who would have committed this crime? But does she seem guilty? Like, it was all about, like, how can we scrutinize her and what she looks like and what she acts like. It was just this constant, like, eviscerating spotlight on me that made me feel like I just. I didn't belong to the rest of humanity. I made. I couldn't make friends. I couldn't get a normal job. And. And I was desperate for connection and belonging. And along comes this person who, in the book I call Mike. That's not his real name, but I met him. He said he had just gotten out of the prison for a crime he didn't commit. And I believed him because.
- [102:25]
Mariana
I mean, because.
- [102:25]
Amanda Knox
Of course, because I wanted to believe him.
- [102:28]
Mariana
But also, you knew that these things were possible.
- [102:31]
Amanda Knox
I knew that these things.
- [102:33]
Mariana
For things that they didn't do all the time. Yep.
- [102:35]
Amanda Knox
And so I, you know, he was in a tough spot, so I, like, I lent him money. I was helping him get back on his feet. We got into an intimate relationship, and then I discover slowly that he was, in fact, guilty of the crimes that he had committed. And. And that he was dangerous. Like, he was. He was dangerous to me, and I tried to push him out of my life. He broke into my house. He. Like, it was. And I could. Did not feel like I could call the police for help, because the last time someone broke into my house and I called the police for help, what happened? I even talked to my lawyers about it, and they were like, you cannot talk to the police because if this comes out, like, if you call the police, this will come out in the media and you're still on trial. And, like, this is all going to be used against you, that you're shacking up with a criminal.
- [103:40]
Mariana
Right.
- [103:41]
Amanda Knox
Like. And so I had to call upon my family to rescue me, to extricate me from this situation that this time I had put myself in. And so, like, not only am I just, like, going through this, like, emotional roller coaster of a trial, but, like, I'm going through this, like, personal, vulnerable, like, emotional roller coaster. And I. I'm just struggling with shame and. And guilt and. And I'm not. Okay. I'm not okay.
- [104:20]
Mariana
Right. And I'm sorry I brought this story up. I. I think it was more the idea that even when you come back, when you come out from prison, the things that are happening in your life have a completely different weight than they have for the rest. So you're not just in. You're not just like any of us, right?
- [104:41]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [104:42]
Mariana
You have to live with the weight of it. Not only the trauma that you went through, but things like this where if this had happened to somebody else. Yeah. They would have been able to call the police. It wouldn't have been a big deal if this made it in the press like this. These are things that none of it should happen to you. Should have happened to you, and then they continue to happen to you, like the weight of the injustice that you still had to carry. And every decision you made in your life, every mistake you made in your life was being analyzed through the injustice, which is, again, so much even more tragic in many ways. But I don't want to end it. I'm not. I don't want to end it on a bad note. You have. You've sort of got out of you, then. Yeah. Went all the way. You got out of that relationship, first of all.
- [105:30]
Amanda Knox
Yes. Well. Yes. Yeah. Got out of that. Yeah. And. Yeah. I mean, I've. I've learned from these situations. I've. I've grown. Time has gone on. I've. I've taken the baby steps of, like, reclaiming a sense of agency in my own life, including by going back to confront my prosecutor. But I've also gotten really lucky to encounter really positive people in my life. Like, I met my husband. I'm married now. I have two kids. I met my husband very serendipitously, actually. He's a novelist, and I. I met him because I reviewed his debut novel for the local paper, and I gave him, like, a rave review and then showed up at, like, his book reading, which, by the way, I, like, I did not go out in public. It was just, like. It just happened to be very serendipitous that I had, like, read his book and submitted my review. And then, like, the next day, I find out that there's a book reading for this exact book at my local bookstore that night. And I was like, oh, cool. Interesting. Maybe I can go to that. And so I go and I. I just. We connected on, like, an artistic level first. Like, on a writing level. We. And also because we're nerds, like, he. He. We watched Star Trek together.
- [106:50]
Mariana
And.
- [106:50]
Amanda Knox
And so we just, like, connected on that level. Or, like, one of the things that we were watching when we first got to know each other was Gravity Falls. Are you familiar with Gravity Falls? It's such A nerdy. It's like a kid's version of Twin Peaks, basically. It's great. And. And. But we just, like, connected on this, like, very human, sort of nerdy, writery level. And, like, it was the first time that I met somebody after everything who was just curious about me as a person and not, like, as the idea of Amanda Knox.
- [107:25]
Mariana
He actually hadn't read much about you. He didn't know anything about your case.
- [107:28]
Amanda Knox
He was like a poetry novelist guy. He was not a true crime guy. And it wasn't until, like, we were friends for around, like, nine months, and then we started dating. And it wasn't until we were, like, dating for a few months that, like. And people found out about it that. Well, first of all, people started, like, sending him Facebook photos of himself with, like, knives in them, and so just, like, very aggressive and, like, you know, headlines about Amanda Knox's new boy toy, that he was like, okay, I gotta figure out what this thing is. And so he, like, deep dives into the case and figures, you know, learns all. Everything there is to know about it. And now he's, like, a huge expert in it. But, like, that's not how we first encountered each other. We just encountered each other on a human level. And he, you know, he was one of my very first friends after everything was finally over. And, you know, we very quickly fell in love just because we're highly compatible. And I'm really lucky for that. Like, I think about. It's bizarre to me that I have, like, people struggle to find love in this world, and I was certainly not online dating. I was not going on Tinder. I was not even looking for love, and it found me. So it's. It feels like a consolation prize.
- [108:47]
Mariana
Yeah. It's like karma the other way.
- [108:49]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. Like, and now I'm like, where's the bad thing that's happening? What's going on?
- [108:53]
Mariana
And you have two amazing kids. Yeah.
- [108:55]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. One of the things I was really sad about when I was sentenced to 26 years was the idea that I was never going to be able to be a mom. And so when I finally did get to become a mom, it was just like. And it's the best. Like, it's everything that I hoped for.
- [109:11]
Mariana
Yeah, it is.
- [109:12]
Amanda Knox
Yeah.
- [109:12]
Mariana
I love what you said about how. How much once you had your daughter first. Right. When you had your daughter and they put her on your. On top of your body and she was crying.
- [109:25]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. As you would having just been born.
- [109:28]
Mariana
Can you talk about that? And looking at your mother there as well, yeah, so.
- [109:33]
Amanda Knox
So I take this baby that's just come from my body, they put her on my chest and she's crying, and I'm just suddenly overwhelmed with the feeling of like, wanting to make her feel better. Like, I just. I just want to take any pain or fear or any bad feeling that she's feeling that's making her cry, and I want to take it away from her. And I'm just like, stricken by the fact that I can't. And so the first words that come out of my lips to my daughter were I'm sorry. And like, that just like, overwhelming feeling of like, helplessness of not being able to like, protect her from everything bad that will ever happen to her. Just like, I'm just like, my mom's right there. And that's what she felt the entire time that I was in prison. Like, that's what that feeling she had for years, non stop, like, which really crystallized for me the idea that like, like what my mom went through was way worse than what I did because, like, if I had. If it could happen all over again and it was my daughter instead of me, I would absolutely do my thing a hundred million times before it ever happened to her. So.
- [110:57]
Mariana
Yeah, your mom is pretty special too, right? She was pretty incredible support. Yeah. Now you guys are pretty close. She's also featured in the documentary.
- [111:05]
Amanda Knox
Yeah, she's an important voice in the documentary because she's always been like my. The person who's believed in me the most and my greatest, like, champion. And like this journey that I went on to go back to Italy and especially to confront my prosecutor was the one time that I really challenged that impulse in her to like, believe in me and want to support me.
- [111:31]
Mariana
Right, because she didn't want you to go back.
- [111:32]
Amanda Knox
She did not want me to go back at all. She did not understand. And she is that other voice that like, says, what, what is the point of this? He doesn't deserve this. Like, no. You know, and. And I think that's an important voice because that is, that's also a voice that's kind of in my head. I'm just listening to the other voice in my head that says, but I need, I need to reach out to the prosecutor. I need to understand. And my mom's like, no, you don't. And. And so like, she's like that, that tension between us, like, also her willingness to be on the ride with me, even though she, every single ounce of her was wanting to drag me back home is like such an m. Like it's just such a tremendous symbol for me of what, like, motherhood is like, even if you do not understand. Yeah.
- [112:30]
Mariana
You go on that journey.
- [112:31]
Amanda Knox
You go on that journey to support your daughter.
- [112:33]
Mariana
Yeah.
- [112:34]
Amanda Knox
That's it. That's your job. And she. She did that job amazingly, kicking and screaming the entire way. But, like, she did it. Yeah. And she didn't have to. And, like, good on her, you know?
- [112:46]
Mariana
Yeah. I, I was curious about. I know you do a lot of speaking engagements. You're. You're also involved with the Innocence Not Project.
- [112:54]
Amanda Knox
It's an Innocence Center. It's based out of California here.
- [112:58]
Mariana
Are they two distinct things, I guess.
- [112:59]
Amanda Knox
Well, yes. So really important thing about the Innocence Project, everyone thinks that, like, there's one Innocence Project. There are actually lots of them. Lots and lots and lots of them. The, the original first Innocence Project is the one that everyone knows about. It's the Innocence Project. It's based out of New York. It does do work all around the United States, particularly because it's the, the most. It's the best funded project. It's got the most resources, and so it has the ability to, like, come in and work on other cases. However, since that first Innocence Project, like, very shortly after it started, like the Washington Innocence Project started and the California Innocence Project started, there are all these different Innocence Projects that are local, that work on local cases and, and basically
- [113:46]
Mariana
for people who don't know, they're advocating for wrongfully convicted cases, and not only they're actually investigating, reinvestigating them and trying to get people out of prison.
- [113:55]
Amanda Knox
Yes.
- [113:56]
Mariana
Wrongfully convicted people out of prison. Yeah.
- [113:58]
Amanda Knox
The goal of the Innocence Project is especially to use new forensic technology to go back and investigate cases and prove the innocence and often in the process, prov. Prove the guilt of the real person who committed the crime in order to, like, find out what's really true about these cases and get innocent people out of prison. So that's. That's the goal. And it's beautiful, incredible work. Deeply frustrating because there are all of these incredible obstacles to overcome, even to just get access to evidence in order to reinvestigate. Like, there's all these obstacles, but they do incredible work. And, and yeah, so I'm, I am on the board of the Innocence center, which is based out of California, but which does a lot of work also around, like, they're for. The Idaho Innocence Project was running for a very long time, but it lost funding and they had to close down. And so all of these cases that were being invest or were being investigated in Idaho are now being investigated by the Innocence center, which is based in California.
- [115:01]
Mariana
And so it's funded by it with support from.
- [115:04]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. From people. From people. Like, they also will.
- [115:09]
Mariana
So we should encourage everyone.
- [115:10]
Amanda Knox
Yes, please, please support, especially your local Innocence Project. Like, look out, do some research and see, like, is there a California or wherever you are, like, is there a local Innocence Project that could use your support?
- [115:22]
Mariana
And I, I just remembered one more thing that I wanted to ask you. You. After the whole Patrick La Mamba Lumumba, they found out, obviously, he was not there that day. Did he, did you ever. To talk to him?
- [115:33]
Amanda Knox
I was trying to reach out. Yeah, I, I reached out to him. Well, first of all, I spoke to him in court. That's where I was able to actually speak directly to him. And, you know, I, I apologized and I tried to explain. He didn't accept it. Actually. It wasn't until really recently that I was actually given his direct contact. Like, I was given his email address and I wrote to him explaining everything.
- [116:03]
Mariana
He explained what had happened to you?
- [116:04]
Amanda Knox
What had happened? Oh, yeah, all of it. And he wasn't interested in hearing it. He. What he wanted was money from you? Yes, He. He wanted me to pay him for wronging him. And no matter what I said to explain what had happened, he just wasn't interested. He said he just wasn't interested that it had been litigated in court. And. And so the end.
- [116:32]
Mariana
And is that, Is it. Is that the case that's still pending? Like, he's the one who still.
- [116:37]
Amanda Knox
Yes.
- [116:37]
Mariana
Wants basically money from you. He wants to. You to be found guilty.
- [116:41]
Amanda Knox
Yes.
- [116:41]
Mariana
Of wrongfully naming him during your interrogation.
- [116:44]
Amanda Knox
Yes.
- [116:45]
Mariana
And that's still open?
- [116:46]
Amanda Knox
Yes. Yeah. So I was, I was convicted of that in Italy. I appealed it to the European Court of Human Rights. The European Court of Human Rights ruled in my favor. And I was, I was able to use that ruling to go back to Italy, overturn my wrongful conviction.
- [117:05]
Mariana
Italy did.
- [117:06]
Amanda Knox
Italy did.
- [117:06]
Mariana
Okay.
- [117:07]
Amanda Knox
But they retried me again and found me guilty again. And now I'm appealing to the European Court of Human Rights again.
- [117:14]
Mariana
Again, not for the murder, but just to make it very clear, again, just for the.
- [117:19]
Amanda Knox
This slander.
- [117:20]
Mariana
Slander charge.
- [117:21]
Amanda Knox
Slander charge. And it's, it's crazy. It's the first time the European Court of Human Rights has accepted to hear the same case twice. Because I, I think they were just like, what happened here? We already ruled on this. How could they have found her guilty when we all, like. So that's the situation that we're in right now. I'm waiting for the ruling from the European Court of Human Rights to see if there's any way that I can go back to Italy and overturn the conviction again.
- [117:54]
Mariana
And this is very important for you.
- [117:55]
Amanda Knox
Yes. Because I did not knowingly and willingly slander anyone.
- [117:59]
Mariana
Right.
- [118:00]
Amanda Knox
It's. It's a wrongful conviction and it's not true. And. And I'm going to fight it until I have no legal avenues left. So.
- [118:11]
Mariana
Yeah. As you should. And hopefully Patrick Lumumba will one day you know, understand.
- [118:18]
Amanda Knox
I, maybe, I mean, I can't control what other people think or feel. I. I think that he is right to have felt wronged. Right. Like, he got arrested for something that he didn't do, but he's finding, he's trying to find blame in the wrong people. Like, I'm not responsible for him being arrested for a crime that he didn't commit. I didn't do the arresting. And what happened in that interrogation room was not in my control and was not my fault.
- [118:50]
Mariana
Right. So much so that it actually put you in prison. So obviously it's not. Yeah. What about Meredith's family?
- [118:59]
Amanda Knox
Both of Meredith's parents have passed.
- [119:02]
Mariana
Oh, the mother has as well.
- [119:03]
Amanda Knox
Yeah. And so she has siblings. She has a sister and two brothers. And it's. I don't know what they believe now about the case. In the past, they. They have. In the past, they've said some contradictory things. Like, they've said, we don't want the wrong people to be held accountable for this crime. But they also will say things like, well, if it wasn't Amanda and Rafaele, then who else could it be? You know, and to be clear, also, it's like what they have said versus what their attorney has said. Like, their attorney is out there saying Amanda is guilty and should have been found guilty. And, you know, sure, we have to, like, respect the verdict, but, like, this is a, you know, this is a miscarriage of justice. And so he's really on the bandwagon of vilifying me and proclaiming my guilt. And so I have to. That's not directly coming from their mouths, but it is coming from their attorney. Their concern has always been that the truth about Meredith has been lost in all of the scandal that has arisen about this case, and that I 100% agree with them because there should not be any confusion around what happened to Meredith that night there. And the fact that there even is is a huge miscarriage of justice, in my opinion.
- [120:42]
Mariana
Right. Absolutely. I Have one last question for you. Sure, I promise. It's the life which is in many ways you are sort of remembered or known for the worst thing that ever happened to you. Right. As you redefine who you are, what do you hope people will remember you for?
- [121:09]
Amanda Knox
I hope they remember me for what's yet to come. Right. Like, I've spent the last, like my entire adult life, the last 18 years, proving my innocence and like, reclaiming my identity from this, like, horrible tabloid monstrosity. And I actually am now at a point where even though there are, like, unresolved things, like I'm still fighting, you know, a legal battle, like, I do feel a sense of closure around all of this. And I'm now, like, exploring this, like, idea in myself of who am I when I'm not fighting this battle anymore. And I'm really excited to just like to discover that. And, you know, part of that is going to continue to be informed by everything that's come before. Right. Like, I still am gonna be interested in working on, you know, getting laws passed to help protect people or to, you know, look at cases where I feel like an injustice is occurring and trying to shed light on that. But also, you know, I'm. I'm still that silly, like, musical theater kid. I would. I would love to move into a space where I don't feel like I have to always be in conversation with the tragedy that happened. And I can just be creative for being. For, you know, creativity's sake.
- [122:35]
Mariana
Right. Well, you can come here to talk about something else. Yeah. Next time we can. Your next book or your next film or hopefully won't be the rehashing of your story. Yeah. One thing that I remembered when I listened to your first interview, the first interview I think I heard of you, that you gave was Joe Rogan when you. I don't know, how long ago was that? Like three years ago?
- [122:55]
Amanda Knox
Well, I've been interviewed twice by Joe.
- [122:57]
Mariana
When the first time was one.
- [122:58]
Amanda Knox
The first time was four years ago ago.
- [123:00]
Mariana
Four years ago. Okay. So I listened to that first interview and I remember thinking, wow, not only is she innocent like I thought she was, I knew she was, but she's a fucking kick ass woman and I love what she stands for and I love how articulate and smart and fearless you are. And I've been wanting to journey ever since.
- [123:20]
Amanda Knox
Oh, well, thanks.
- [123:22]
Mariana
Thank you for coming on the podcast. So happy to have you here.
- [123:25]
Amanda Knox
Thank you, you so much.