Anna Delvey / Fake Heiress | The Hidden Third with Mariana van Zeller

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Hidden Third—Anna Delvey / Fake Heiress

Podcast: The Hidden Third
Host: Mariana van Zeller
Guest: Anna Sorokin (aka Anna Delvey)
Date: January 7, 2026
Episode: Anna Delvey / Fake Heiress

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Episode Overview

This episode features a rare, candid, and sometimes contentious interview with Anna Sorokin, better known as Anna Delvey—the so-called "fake heiress" whose audacious infiltration of the New York elite inspired the Netflix series Inventing Anna. Host Mariana van Zeller seeks to go beyond the media narrative, exploring Anna’s motivations, experiences before and after her crimes, her personal reflections, and her life under house arrest as she navigates a pending immigration case.

Anna is candid but guarded, often reluctant to dwell on the details of her criminal past and the impact it had on others, while pushing back on attempts to label her or glamorize her story. The conversation is frequently tense as Mariana tries to get Anna to articulate remorse and reflect on her actions and the repercussions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Early Life, Education, and Ambition

• Childhood and Moving:
  Anna discusses her early years in Russia and the move to Germany at age 14, noting that switching countries "prepared me so much for real life because real life is not comfortable."
  (05:09)

• Academic Interests:
  She excelled at languages but skipped over subjects she didn’t care for (notably geography). Anna describes a pragmatic approach: "I realized that you don't need to…know everything. It's better to be, like, focused."
  (07:35)

• Lack of Attachment:
  Anna describes not having strong national identity: "I just think generally I don't have any nationalistic pride or attachment to any place because I moved around so much."
  (77:28)

Entering the Fashion World & New York Social Scene

• Move to Paris, Internships:
  Anna shares her time working at Purple magazine and feeling isolated in Paris despite professional opportunities, eventually gravitating to the social and professional scene in New York.
  (12:13–15:38)

• Ambitious Plans:
  At 23, she conceived the "Anna Delvey Foundation", originally designed as an art foundation and members club in an iconic New York building. She claims, "It takes just as much energy to build something small as it does…to build something big."
  (20:48–21:07)

The Con, The Crime, and Justifications

• Genesis of the Scam:
  Anna justifies her actions largely as a result of feeling pressured to secure a property with investor interest and deal with time constraints.
  (22:47–24:22)

• Rationalizing the Fraud:
  Anna insists her intentions weren’t malicious: "Everybody was going to get repaid and it's going to be a profitable business…nobody else would like want to be involved if it was a fail from the start."
  (24:43)

• Refusals and Evasions:
  Throughout, Anna repeatedly declines to go into detail (“My case is still on appeal, so I’m not going to, like, give you a confession”). She deflects when pressed for emotional or moral introspection.

Prison, Friendship, and Aftermath

• Prison Experience:
  Anna describes her time in various New York prisons—meeting infamous inmates, hating the experience, and appreciating the routines that allowed her to "entertain myself."
  (41:03–47:05)

• Friendships and Fallout:
  She remains friends with some from her past but is frank about others: “With friends like this, you don’t…need enemies” (re: Rachel Williams). Anna’s view: “Jail is a pretty isolating experience. Like you find out who's your friend.”
  (38:34–39:27)

• Prison Reform Aspirations:
  Anna reveals current work on prison reform: "Prison system in the form that it's now, it's like, abusive and punishing, and it turns people into better criminals. I don't think it's about rehabilitation."
  (66:18)

Remorse, Reputation, and Future

• Reluctant Remorse:
  Repeatedly pressed about feeling sorry, Anna is ambivalent: “Actions speak louder…Of course, anyone can just come out and say how sorry they are and then don't really mean it.” Eventually:

  • “I apologize for the mistakes I’ve made in the past.” (67:30)
  • “Yes,” to the question if she would do things differently and not commit the same crimes. (68:50)

• Life Today:
  Anna now resides in Manhattan under immigration house arrest. She works on projects in fashion, art, and media, including a production company and plans for a book.
  (54:00–54:16)

• Reflections and Insecurities:
  She admits to being more cautious and insecure than in her pre-fame years, second-guessing her decisions and uncertain about her future.
  (57:18–59:10)

• Identity and Public Perception:
  Anna is keen not to be forever defined by her crimes: “I don't want to be remembered by my crime. And I want…that's the only thing people associate me with for the rest of my life.”
  (59:16)

Personal Tidbits & Humor

• Fashion, Art, and Personality:
  Anna is witty, sarcastic, and often self-deprecating. She jokes about being a stand-up comedian and uses sarcasm to deflect probing questions.
  (09:15, 68:19, 68:34)

• Dating & Relationships:
  She confirms she is dating but offers no further details: “No boyfriend reveal on this podcast, I’m sorry.”
  (69:18–69:31)

• Immigration Status:
  Anna continues to fight to remain in the U.S., with her status unresolved and restricted to a 75-mile travel radius.
  (04:12–04:35)

• Art & Business:
  She sells art (originals and prints) and has found commissions increasingly popular, with originals fetching about $20,000.
  (73:05)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Her Motivations:
  "I don't see whatever the path that I've taken as a way to success. I think it's actually really hard. And people just try to make it out to be like, I committed crimes and now I just get to do whatever I want. And that's like, not the case at all." (01:46, 29:45)

• On Facing the Consequences:
  “I was the only person who was on house arrest for immigration purposes, and nobody was interested in that story.” (30:13)

• On Facing Stress:
  "Having money is easier than not having money." (26:43)

• On Remorse:
  “I apologize for the mistakes I’ve made in the past.” (67:30)

• On Press Coverage During the Trial:
  “Why is it like, that's so outrageous…I’m a girl and like you sitting there taking pictures of me eight hours a day. Like, obviously I don’t want to look like shit.” (35:15)

• On People’s Perception:
  “It's interesting to me, or self-preservation, right? Because there's a lot of really nasty comments out there in general for everyone.” (56:26)

• On Her Current Life:
  "I live in downtown Manhattan and just, like, working on my project. I'm actually working on prison reform and, like, a couple of my fashion projects." (54:00)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Early struggle, move to Germany, language learning: 05:09–07:35
• First ambitions in fashion and moving to Paris/New York: 12:13–15:38
• Launching the Anna Delvey Foundation and scam pressure: 17:28–24:22
• Rationalizing and justifying actions: 24:43–25:41
• Friendships lost and retained after scandal: 38:34–39:27
• Arrest and prison experience: 41:03–47:05
• Contraband in prison, prison economy: 47:40–49:29
• Adjustment after prison, re-entry to society: 51:39–52:47
• Reluctance and remorse: 63:39–67:50
• On not wishing to repeat her crimes: 68:19–68:50
• Current projects and personal life: 54:00–54:16, 69:11–73:37

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Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is marked by Anna’s characteristic deflection and dry wit, with moments of vulnerability and honesty emerging despite her reluctance. Mariana attempts to elicit remorse and deeper reflection, sometimes encountering resistance and sarcasm. Anna’s story is ultimately framed not as glamorizing crime, but as an exploration of the psychological, logistical, and social forces behind her actions—and the ongoing struggle to be defined by something more than her infamy.

Memorable Closing:
Anna, when pressed repeatedly about her regret and whether she would do it all again, delivers a deadpan:

“No, I would not do it again.” (68:50)

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For listeners seeking an unvarnished view into a scandalous case that gripped global headlines, Anna Delvey’s episode offers rare access to both myth and reality—the elusive “hidden third” of the story.

Transcript

[Mariana Van Zeller]

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[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And I find that you are maybe offended by my questions or you don't like my line of questioning. And I'd really like to figure out a way that we can get along better so that this can be a smoother conversation. So if there's stuff that you don't want to talk about, you can tell me. Hey, I don't want to talk about that. But obviously you're in my podcast because of the stuff that you did that landed you in prison. This is why you have the life that you have now, right? It's because of your past.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I would say I have the life that I have now, like, in spite of what I've done, not because of it. I don't, I don't see whatever the path, whatever that I've taken is a way to success. I think it's actually really hard. And people just try to make it out to be like, I committed crimes and now I just get to do whatever I want. And that's like, not the case at all.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Has your accent changed at all in the last few years.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I mean, it's hard for me to, like, tell myself at a nurse, like, maybe if I were to, like, listen to myself from years ago, maybe. But I don't really have, like, recordings of myself from back then.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You don't?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Weirdly, no.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

When was the first sort of recording since you got to the U.S. i.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Guess when I got out of prison in 2021.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And I'll do a little intro, just part of what we do here. Anna Delvey needs no introduction, but in case you've been living under a rock or on some far off planet, Anna is the woman at the center of New York's Face Fake Hera saga, which was eventually made into the very popular Netflix show Inventing Anna, which I binged and Anna, welcome to the show.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Thank you for having me.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I'm very happy to meet you in person.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yes.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

First of all, what's your life like now? What are you up to?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Working on a bunch of projects, and I guess I'm enjoying my. Even though I live with limited freedom. So. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So for our listeners who aren't watching the video because we're filming this as well, but you look absolutely stunningly beautiful. Your hair is blonder than it used to be. You're very well dressed. You have a beautiful dress. And you have your ankle monitor on.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Of course, which I've seen a bunch.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Of photos and you usually always show. You always have it. I mean, you always kind of wear things that show off your ankle monitor.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I don't really get a choice. Like, I just wear whatever.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Right.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Not really with the purpose in mind to, like, show off my ankle bracelet.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Right. And also because it's so big that it's kind of hard to hide it.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Right, Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I would need to, like, wear flared pants or very long skirts, and I do that sometimes. But then people are accusing me of hiding it and being ashamed of it, which is. I'm not doing that.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So when are you taking it off? How long do you have to keep it on for?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I don't know. It's for immigration purposes, so it's not really up to me.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So you still don't know if you're going to be allowed to stay in the US Is that. That the case?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, pretty much. My immigration case is pending. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

But you're hoping you can stay.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, that's the goal. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You like living here and you like your life here.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I'd love to be able to travel. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And right now you can't travel. So are you just stuck in New York or can you even travel in.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

The US I have 75 miles radius and for everything else, I'm allowed to travel with prior permission of my supervisors. And I mean, I could leave and go to Europe. I probably won't be able to come back. That's why I'm trying to figure it out from inside of the country.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Do you think you'll be able to beat this case and stay here?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I mean, I don't know. It's not up to me. I don't get to decide.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So let's take it back to your. You grew up in Russia, right? And then.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You moved to Germany when you were 15, like 14. 14, what was that like? What were you like as a teenager?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I don't know. That's a good question. For my parents. I don't know. I think I did well at school. I don't know. I didn't really, like, I guess the rules of authority. But I think moving and like switching countries was very helpful to me as a person. Like, I didn't really. It was uncomfortable at the time. But I think it's a good experience because in life, like, I don't know, I serve like friends of mine who have parents and they like to shelter their kids so much. Like, they would not move because they don't want to. They don't want for the kid to switch schools. But I think it prepared me so much for the real life because real life is not comfortable. And like, you don't get to hang out with your friends all the time. And like, you go and you apply for job and like, you're not going to have any friends in there, you're going to go to college or like another school. You cannot just be used like, to moving through life surrounded by like your friends and family.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So was it difficult when you arrived in new country? You didn't speak German at the time, right?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I did, yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

But you spoke German already.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah. Well, I don't know. When you grow up in Russia, like, nobody speaks Russian, so you, you better like, know how to speak other languages otherwise the rest of the world won't be able to understand you. So I studied German since I was little too. Like French and English.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Was it hard at all to start a new school in a new country, make new friends? Were you very sociable? Was it easy to make friends or.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I made like new friends quickly. It's like you were a kid. I don't know. It was a good experience. Yeah, I don't like, remember it being too Hard or, like, too easy? Like, I don't know, you know, how.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You know, people talk about what kind of role you played in school? Maybe it's more of, like, an American thing. The, like, the popular kid, the sporty kid, the intellectual kid. Do you think you fit into any of those?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I guess the school I went to, it was a gymnasium. And in our. I think it's, like, more comparable, like, to college, to American college. So it's like, it's a group of about, like, 100 people, but everyone chooses their minor and their major. So you have, like, different classes, so you're not with the same group of people all the time. So you have, like, math with a certain group, then you have French with another group of people, so it's, like, a little bit less, like, clicky. But I don't know.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

But you were a good student, right? I've read that you were.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Until a certain point.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

You were a good student. Yeah, I was, like, a really good student until I was, like, maybe 15, 16 or something.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

What happened then?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I don't know. It's like, I guess I realized that you don't need to, like, know everything, and it's better to be, like, focused in whatever you like to, like. No, like, I knew my strengths were languages. Like, I enjoyed doing that and, like, learning about that. Like, I didn't like geography, so I failed. And because you fail at something, like, it just brings your average down. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Were your parents sad or disappointed at that point?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I don't know. Not particularly. I don't know. It's like, I don't need to know 50 different types of soil in this German city. Like, I don't regret not knowing that. So if that makes me a bad person, I guess so. I've.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I've actually listened to a few episodes of your own podcast, and I think most people don't know this, but you're actually quite funny.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, so they say.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Why?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Why, why do you. Yeah, why is it that. I mean, I guess people have only seen you being interviewed by people who just want to know about the crimes you've committed and. And want to focus on that. And it's kind of hard to be funny when you're talking about the bad stuff you've done. Right?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah. I mean, I don't know. You can either laugh or you cry. I don't know.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

True.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I wouldn't call myself funny. Necessary. Like, I'm probably more sarcastic, people would say, I don't know.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

But you definitely have a sense of humor. Like, you make, I mean, I was listening to your podcast and not only do you make some self deprecating jokes sometimes, but you're. You also laugh a lot at other people's jokes, which is great because they like people to laugh at their own jokes, at their jokes. So you're, you're good at that.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I'm trying. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Which is a very endearing part about you, which I've been. Which doesn't usually come across until you actually.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Thank you for pointing it out.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah, it's true.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Should be a standup comedian.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

See there. There you are.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

If nothing else works out.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Okay, so you were in school. You're. You realize that this, what, what was it that you realized that you were, you weren't really into geography? What was it that you were more interested in doing at that point?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Um, I was decent, I guess, in French. Uh, I became good at math because I had to, I had to study a lot for the test and it was like a percentage of my final score. Got a pretty good score. And I don't know, like, I really wanted to work in fashion, but then like I knew I was going to leave and like do it somewhere else because Germany is not exactly the fashion capital of the world. So I knew it's either going to be like Paris or London. So I kind of, I don't know, like half assed kind of like the, the last year. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You've always. One of the things with Inventing Anna, which it's based on your story, but a lot is not actually accurate. Right. Which I think they said.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I still have not watched it.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You haven't watched it? Really?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Nothing? I watched like the clips that were out there that are like unavoidable but now are not. I just offended themselves for both. I thought it was very hard. Like I started, I think, and I just. It was not a comfortable experience and I never had the reason to. So.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Do you think that Julia Gardner, in the clips you watched, do you think that she was anything like you?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I don't know. I don't know. Like, I don't think my accent is this over exaggerated. It's not up to me to judge. I'm obviously biased. I mean, it is what it is. I can't change it. It's out there.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Do you think it would be hard? I mean. Yeah. Would it be hard for you to watch it?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I guess I just, I find. Find it insufferable to like watch myself. So I don't see the reason why I would do that to myself yet. And then when A series came out. I was in jail, so I didn't have the option to watch it. And when I got out, I was just so busy and like, half a year later and, like, why would I do this?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Right. One of the things they do portray, though, is that it's your interest in fashion from a very young age. And it's. It's. If I remember correctly, I watched it when it first came out, but if I remember correctly, it's basically you in your room as a young kid and really ripping out pages of fashion magazines. Did any of that happen? Were you that interested in fashion when you were a kid?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I had, like, Tumblr.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You didn't even Flickr.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I don't know. I was not, like, much of a. Like, a collageur, which is how they depict you. Yeah, yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

No, not at all.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

We had, like, Internet and computer. I had, like, digital albums.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah, it's the digital age. You're not that old. You're much younger than they depicted you, I guess. If you like what you've heard so far, be sure to subscribe to my YouTube channel so you can stay up to date on all episodes of the Hidden Third podcast. Go to YouTube.com marianavanzeller and hit subscribe and. Okay. And then you moved to France at some point and started working?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, I went to London, London, Berlin, and then Paris. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

What was that like?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

It was a great experience again, to like, move around and not kind of, like, to have anyone around you and, like, to be forced to, like, make new friends and meet new people. Because so many people like that, I know, they just get stuck in, like, their routine. It's like, oh, it's kind of comfortable, you know, I'm like, good enough. I wouldn't want to change. And that was, like, unfathomable to me to just, like, stay somewhere just because it's kind of good enough and, like, I don't want to change. So I don't know. I don't know why I did it, but, like, it felt like a fun thing to do. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And you enrolled at the St. Martin's College, right. Closet in London. But then you didn't finish it. Why not?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I just thought for what I wanted to do. I didn't think school was necessary. I thought I'd be better off just getting real life experience, because I don't think, like, you should study everything necessarily. Like, you should study, like, law and medicine. You should not be studying, like, marketing.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And so you quit, and then you went, and that's when you moved to Paris?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, In Rock at Parsons Paris. But then I started internship at Purple.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

What was that like?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

It was a great experience. Yeah. I learned so much. I think at that point I was. This is like when French folk was launching the English speaking side and I guess they were interviewing for, like, intern positions to, I guess, help the English side of French folk. And I thought, well, I'm going to, like. I'm probably going to like, be fetching coffees there and I want, like, learn much. So. So, like, I went with Purple and they have a small team and. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

What were you doing?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I was kind of doing a bit of everything. I was like editorial assistant, intern. I guess my main task was making drafts with Purple Diary because we had contributors that would submit photos and I would like, caption them. I would also really made the magazine to be shoppable. So I would be in charge of creating, like, affiliate links, stuff like that, and then a bit of everything. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And were you paying, paid as an intern at the time?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

A bit, yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

How did you live in Paris with a.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

My parents, like, paid for my rent. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And at this point they were fully supporting. I mean.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I mean, I paid. Yeah, kind of. Yeah, you could say. So do you have a good relationship.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

With your parents, by the way?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we talk like once every one to two weeks. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So at what point did you decide you wanted to come to the U.S.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I stayed at Purple for, I think, like a year and a half, something like that. And I just decided, like, I learned everything. And I also found Paris to be pretty isolating. I did not have that many friends there, even though I did have, like a French boyfriend. But I did not really. I never really got like, to have a circle of friends outside of work. I think it was like one of the loneliest times, like, in my life, like, living in Paris and not like really having family there. And I never really went to school there. And I thought I ended up having more friends in New York because it's kind of the same of group of people, all that travels between, like, London, New York, Paris, Milan. And I came to New York, like over the summer and I kind of like stayed for the Fashion Week and I decided, like, why? Why stay in Paris? Because. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And so what happened next when you arrived in New York?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

What do you mean? Like, at what point? I was traveling a lot until I never lived in New York, actually, until I got arrested.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Oh, is that right?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So where were you? You were just traveling back and forth.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

So at that point, like, there were no short term rentals. And it's really hard to like just get an apartment in New York. Like you have to get at least one year lease. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You have to sign a one year lease.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah. You have to pay, like, you have to sign a lease, you have to show like pay stubs and you have to have a credit score and all that. And I think now you have like short term rentals where you can just get like an apartment for a couple of months. That was not an option before that.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So now you have the Airbnb. I don't know if Airbnb was back then too.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, it was like tricky too. It was never really, like legal. It was in and out all the time and you never knew what you were going to get there, so. And New York was never like an Airbnb playground in my experience.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So you came for Fashion Week and did you realize immediately, I love the city and this is sort of where I want to live?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, I thought, like, I'd stay. Then I started dating a guy who was an American and I still had my French apartment and I went back to Paris. I, like moved out of there. My dad came. He, like, took the stuff that I didn't need because I had like a whole apartment. And I guess I was in New York, like. And I would go back to Germany from time to time. I'd be like in LA and San.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Francisco and you'd go back to Germany to visit your parents?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I only was in the States on Esta, so I couldn't really stay for too long either. So.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So is that every three months that.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

You have to live 90 days?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah, yeah, three months. Okay. So you were leaving and then coming back and then staying?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So you were staying as long as possible as you could in. In New York whenever you could?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Not necessarily. It would depend, like, if I had something going on in Europe, if it was like Paris Fashion Week. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And at what point did the trouble begin? Like, what point did you decide that it was that you were going to start trying to get money? When did things veer off?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I guess the original idea was that we're going to have a group of investors that would purchase a building and they would own a part of the building and we would run a business in there.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And this is the Anna Delvey Foundation.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And you started thinking about doing that.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah. And then at some point, the group of people I was working with, they showed me the 281 Park Avenue south building, but it was not for sale. It Was for rent only. Only good part of it, of that building was that it was kind of ready to go. So you wouldn't like, we would not need to spend, I don't know, seven to eight years trying to get permits or like build it out. It was pretty much like move in ready. Probably could be done like in a year or two, depending, I guess on the permits. And it was a great location, but yeah, it was for lease only. So then I kind of like changed the whole direction my project. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Into what? Into becoming what?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

So it was like a different business model. Now it's not like people who.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Investing.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah. Who would invest in real estate. It became completely, completely different thing.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

But was it at the time, was it because I think one of the. I mean, you were how old? 20, I guess.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I was 23 when I came up with the idea. I got arrested when I was 26.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Okay. So here's one thing that drives me totally to totally nuts. Opening up my bank account and realizing that I've been paying a sneaky hidden transaction fee for months. A fee that I had no idea was being charged for. It happens way more often than I'd like to admit. Like an AI app that I signed up for before the summer. Something that was going to help me become an AI expert for free. Of course, nothing is free. And I forgot that I'd start getting charged for it after the first few months. Actually after the first month. Until months went by and I was still paying for an app that I never ever used. Or this other example that is even more annoying. My son subscribed to a kids online game a million years ago. A game that he hasn't played in years. And yet every month we were being charged $3.99. And no matter how much I tried, I couldn't figure out how to cancel that subscription. That's until I started using Rocket Money. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. It's the solution to those pesky, sneaky hidden transaction fees because it shows you all your expenses in one place, including subscriptions you completely forgot about. If you see a subscription you no longer want, Rocket Money will help you cancel it. Their dashboard shows you your total financial picture in a way that helps you save money. Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. [e-mail] Hidden Third that's RocketMoney.com Hidden Third RocketMoney.com Hidden Third and it's pretty bold. I mean, you came up with an idea for a big project when you were 23, newly sort of had been living here or partly living here on and off for just a couple years, right?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, it's.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I mean, you can see it as sort of ambitious and a person with a young person with big dreams, which could be great.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I guess it takes just as much energy to build something small as it does like, to build something big.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Was that your thought?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

No, I just came up with it at the time.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Were you thinking, okay, I have this idea about. And it was sort of a members club and an arts. Right. An art house members club.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I guess my original idea was to make it an art foundation and we would give a different artist, like, an opportunity to kind of transform the whole building and, like, make it a whole experience. And a members club would be just like a way to monetize it and like, restaurant and everything on top because, like, you need money to.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Does that exist anywhere?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I'm sure they're, like, plenty of things.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And then what led you to believe that you could actually accomplish this idea?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Well, I got run it by people who I worked with at the time. They thought it was great.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And you think you were going to get the money from investors at the time? Was that the initial idea? And so you started presenting yourself to investors and how did things go?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I guess we were always dealing with banks rather than individual investors.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So at what point did you start not saying the truth? At what point did you start lying or. And you're looking at me as if I'm asking something that is. That is strange, but, I mean, we knew we were going to talk about this, right?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, I just. My case is still on appeal, so I'm not going to, like, give you a confession. No, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

But I mean, this is all out there. Okay. At what point did you realize that in order to get this dream project, which, again, is pretty. I love people who. I mean, it's very much. I came to America with a dream myself. So I commend you for having a big dream and being ambitious. I love ambition. I particularly love ambition in women. So. But at what point did you realize that in order to accomplish this dream of yours, you would have to, you know, start faking documents and faking checks?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I guess there was a time pressure to get the building because there was another party that was interested, and the team that was working with, they were like, well, we love the building. Let us know when you have the location. Otherwise, like, there's no nothing. To talk about. So I guess I felt pressured from, like, I didn't want to lose the building because then kind of the whole everything that we worked on would collapse and we would need to, like, start from the beginning. And the team who already wanted to be on this project, they approved of that location because it's very location specific. So, yeah, I just wanted for it to, like, move forward. And I felt, yeah, I guess the pressure to deliver something because I thought they're not going to, like, take me seriously if I just flake on this one. Like, this could not go on forever. So it felt like a once in a lifetime thing to try to get this building. And it felt like once we would get the building, everything would just become easier.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Was it difficult to do it, to fake the documents, or how did you come up with that idea?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I don't know.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So you. Basically what you did was that you pretended like you had all these. What was it, $60 million or something? Right. In order to be able to get a loan from a bank, did you say? So they say. I mean, it's. In your case. Did you. Was it something that you thought from one moment to the next, or was this a plan or how did you come up with this idea?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I don't know. I can't say that. I don't know.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And were you worried at the time when you were doing this? Were you thinking, oh, this is not this, I shouldn't be doing this, or were you thinking, well, this is the only way I can achieve what I want?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I was pretty. I guess it was not a. It was pretty stressful time because I really wanted for this project to, like, happen and kind of everything was writing on it for me and. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And initially you did get along, right?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Kind of, yeah. I guess there were, like, many parties involved. Yeah, so.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So for a long time you actually thought you were going to be able to do this?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yes. And the way I justified it for myself is like, everybody was going to get repaid and it's going to be a profitable business because that's what everyone around me was telling me would be, because nobody else would, like, want to be involved if it was a fail from the start, because it would not be getting much from it if it was like a ship that was destined to sink.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

It takes quite a bit of chutzpah to basically come here with a dream and an idea of what you wanted to do, know that you didn't have any money to pay for this, and sort of convince people that you were going to be Able to pull this off?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Is that a question?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah. Do you, do you think. Where do you think you got that from? And what would you call that? That. Would you call it equality or what? How would you define what you did?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I don't know. That guy's just. Me. I don't know. I didn't, like, I'm not cosplaying as anything. It just made sense to me at that time. Was probably like a naive and foolish idea. It made sense to me at the time. Like, I don't know, I tried to move on and learn from my mistakes and.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

No. Yeah. And did you think at the time that this was actually going to work?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yes, obviously. Yeah. Because I had nothing to gain from it. At no point was I under impression that anyone would wire me $60 million or how much I was wiring, asking for.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So you were thinking that by building this you would start profiting from it and then you could repay the loans and repay everything that you owed.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Correct?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yes. There's a period in your whole case where you were staying at several hotels. You stayed at the 11 Howard for a long time.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah. Which is not a part of my criminal case.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And you realize that they started asking you money that you didn't have to pay this bill. Right. Thirty something thousand dollars bill. What was that feeling like for you?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I paid them in full, so. And they were not a part of my criminal case.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

No, I know, but just in terms of your life, like, how would you. How did you feel at the time knowing that there were people that wanted you to pay bills and that you were trying to get the money and I mean, it must have been really stressful time for you too as well.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

No, Yeah, I guess it's. Yeah. Having money is easier than not having money. Yeah. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Because your project, the dream project that would actually bring you, possibly bring you money was very. Was far away. Right. I was just trying to figure out what you were thinking at this time of how you were going to find money to pay for these hotels.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I mean, I paid them, so.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah. With the loan that you got from the bank.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Correct. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So you didn't think you could live like this forever? Was there a point that you thought, oh, this is not going well for me. I have to figure out.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I mean, I was constantly figuring something out. It was not like I was just living lavishly and just, I don't know, just sitting in a hotel.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah, but that's what I mean. So how did you feel at the time? How was that? I mean, I imagine it's Incredibly stressful. How did you feel?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I was. I was constantly, like, working on different solutions, so there were, like, so many moving pieces. I guess people don't really, like, write about that or it was not a part of the case, because my case, like, they only include the criminal part, but there was always a possibility something is going to get sorted out. So I guess I was not just, like, sitting there and waiting for everything to collapse. Steps.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So tell me about what some of the things that you did at the time to that show sort of creativity on your part. And instead of somebody, you'll have to.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Wait for my book.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You're writing a book?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

What is it called?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I don't know. It's the least one of the. It's the easiest part to come up with a name.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

How far are you in the writing process?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I'm, like, halfway in, probably.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

How's it. How's the process for you?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I. I'm not a writer. I don't think. I don't think, like, I would love to. I wouldn't like to do that for a living. I think I'd rather be written about than write myself, so.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So. You know, Anna, my. My podcast, I interview a lot of people that got in trouble. That's the whole point of the podcast. And I talk to people. A lot of them have done time in prison.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And usually there's. It's easy conversations. I'm finding it very hard to talk to you. And I've. I do this for a living. Like, I've interviewed thousands of people in my life, and I always find a way to connect, and I find that you are maybe offended by my questions or you don't like my line of questioning. And I'd really like to figure out a way that we can get along better so that this can be a smoother conversation. So if there's stuff that you don't want to talk about, you can tell me. Hey, I don't want to talk about that. But obviously you're in my podcast because of the stuff that you did that landed you in prison. So as honest as you can be about what happened, I just, like, I.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Prefer to focus on what I'm doing now and, like, not trying to rehash the past because it's just, like, not, like, there's so much out there. And I've done so many interviews. I just, like, don't know. What else is there left to say. I think I covered so many, like, every topic that's out there, and I just don't. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah. I absolutely get it. And you're probably fatigued to talk about this, but this is why you have the life that you have now, right? It's because of your past and many of the opportunities you have now and the writing the book and the fact that you're on this podcast is because of what happened in your past. Which is why for people like me, it's incredibly interesting as well.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I would say I have the life that I have now in spite of what I've done, not because of it. I don't see whatever the path that I've taken as a way to success. I think it's actually really hard. And people just try to make it out to be like, I committed crimes and now I just get to do whatever I want. And that's like, not the case at all.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So you think people try to glamorize the fact that you did time in prison or your crimes instead of actually realizing that it was really hard? Absolutely.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

It's like I went through so many problems and I constantly deal with issues and just nobody likes to write about that. I was also the only person who was on house arrest for immigration purposes, and nobody was interested in that story.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So here I'm giving you this platform. Tell me about those difficulties. I mean, that's why I was asking about what was your mindset at the time in terms of how stressed you must have been? Because I think for most people, it came across as you were. It was just a walk in the park for you, and you didn't care what you were doing, and you didn't care that you were hurting people. And this is what I'm trying to get from you. What was it like? What did you feel like? At what point did you. You realize that this was a mistake or at what point did you feel bad for. Yeah, just give me a little bit of your. Your insight.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I just. I don't want to, like, inspire people to do anything similar to what I've done. But I think if you look into my case, you see that I never had any bad intentions or motivations. That was a path for me to sort it out and for no one to be hurt. And just because I ended up getting arrested and obviously all that was out of the window, but I did, like, repay my institution before I even left prison. So not lot of people can say that.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So what have been sort of the difficulties? Like, what was the worst time in your life? What was. Yeah, some of the worst stuff you've been through.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Because just getting arrested and looking back, like, I never had bail, so I had to stay in jail, but pending trial and I was like a first time non violent offender. But looking back, I'm actually grateful I was in jail because it would have been so hard for me as like somebody. I was 26 and what would I be doing? Just like reading awful articles about myself. At least I was in jail and my time counted towards my final sentence and I didn't have to deal with just reading horrible things about myself. And it's much harder when you don't really have like I was not famous. There were no articles about me before then, so that was like the only thing that was known about me.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So it was the bad stuff.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Exactly, yeah. Like stuff related to my crime.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

What was the arrest like? Can you tell me about that day? And this is a question I ask everyone. So don't, don't feel like I'm targeting you. But what was that day like when they finally came for you?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

It was. They actually have not spent a single day of my life thinking I was going to get arrested for better or for worse. So I guess it came as a surprise. So it's not a pleasant experience.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

But what were you doing at the time?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I think it's like all out there. It was a pretty stressful summer and.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You never in your, you never thought, I mean, you knew you had faked the documents and you had the bad checks, but you never thought that this was actually gonna happen?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

No, I thought, I thought if prosecution were to look at my case, they would see that I would never like that. I would not, I didn't do it for the purpose of me getting away with the money because, you know, even if I were to get the $30 million loan, I would never like get anything myself. So like a part of it would go towards the letter of credit to secure the building. It would be like 7 million of it would go towards, it's like security deposit so that like I wouldn't have any access to it. It would be like frozen in an escrow and everything else. The vendors would get paid by the bank as soon as they would submit like bills. So it's not me getting this huge amount of money and like going somewhere, I thought. But like that what made it not criminal because I didn't have motivation to personally profit from it.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

But you would be making money from building this thing eventually, right? If it became.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Well, I never claimed to be a lawyer, so I'm not saying it was a sound logic, but this I thought like nobody would bother to prosecute Me.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So they showed up and it was. You were like, what the heck is happening here? I have no idea why they.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, I guess like I read an indictment later. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Was it. Who was it who showed up? Was it regular police or. I haven't read about this. About that. Yeah, just the police showed up. Did. Were they armed? Was it scary?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

No, not really. They were. I mean, I'm just, I'm like, I'm kind of a girl. I'm not a big person. So they were never like physically threatening. I think everyone who I dealt with, I mean, they never experienced like physical violence.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So what was. And then you were sentenced. Did you. When. How was. What was the trial like?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

That was stressful. Yeah. I was still in custody, so it's. Yeah, it's extra stressful to be. To go through trial when you're in jail because it's. You leave at 7 in the morning and you come back at 10 at night and you don't really have access to phone a lawyer. You cannot do any prep. You cannot use like a messaging system, Nothing.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So were you depressed? Was it. Was there a lot of crying at the time? How did you feel?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

No, I was actually excited because you get bored of sitting in jail and like finally something is happening and you're on trial and it's going to go one way or another other. I think boredom is worse than.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah, people were obsessed with you at this time. They were obsessed with everything you wore in court. What would that. That feel like, knowing that every media news outlet was writing about what you were wearing that day and what you were saying and looking like?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

It didn't really feel like anything because that was the least one of my problems was like daily mails writing about me. And I didn't really have access to it. Like my lawyers would show me what's being written about me, but I had to focus on actual like the witnesses and on my case face. And I tried to like look decent. I don't know why it's like, that's so outrageous. I don't know, like I'm a girl and like you sitting there taking pictures of me eight hours a day. Like, obviously I don't want to look like shit.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Right. I actually thought most of the coverage was positive, which is about how beautiful you looked and how great, well dressed you were. I didn't think there was a lot of coverage about.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I was like, thanks to all my friends and the team that helped make everything happen. And Jessica helped a lot and Anastasia, the stylist Nef. And it's like thanks to them that had anything to wear.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Are you still friends with Nef?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Who was working at the hotel. Right? That's how you met her? Yeah. One of the people that testified against you. And I know this is a sensitive subject, and I know you're gonna be mad because I'm gonna ask about this, but was your former friend who used to work at Vanity Fair, Rachel Williams. Right. What was that like for you when you saw her testifying against you? I mean, and she testified against you for people who don't remember? Because she. She says you basically made her pay for the trip to Morocco, which was over $60,000, and you owed her this money and you weren't paying her back. Right.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I mean, I got acquitted of that count, so it was great. Her testimony was obviously did not resonate with the jury, so.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

But yeah, but what did it feel like to see if somebody who was your friend testify against you?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I mean, it's not like I just found out that she was pressing charges against me. It's. She didn't look at me once other than, I don't know. I guess when you're a witness, you point out the whoever you're accusing and then that's it. She didn't look me in the eye. Nothing. So were you looking at her all the time?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah. Why?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Because she was talking and she was a witness against me. Where else would I be looking at?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Were you hoping that she would look at you?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I mean, I don't care. I just found it interesting.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Why do you think you were acquitted for that, considering you did actually make her pay 60,000?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I didn't make her pay anything.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Didn't you ask her to put it on her?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

No, she offered it herself and I guess she tested it.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I know you've been asked this a million times, but is there any part of this that made you feel bad for doing that to her?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

It was an unfortunate situation. I didn't do anything to her. She went on a trip and then she offered. It was not great that put her in that position, but it was not my plan or intention. I never invited her with a plan or like some scheme for her to pay for this vacation. Right.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

It wasn't preplanned. Like, you didn't go to Morocco thinking, I'm gonna make Rachel pay for this. But you still knew you didn't have money. And eventually she had to pay for it.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

And she didn't really have to pay for anything. She offered to pay for it because she would get American Express points.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

But Also because she thought you were going to pay her back or no?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yes. Yeah. And I did have a plan to pay her back, but then I got arrested, so.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So is there any part of that that makes you feel bad that you put her in that situation?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, that was an unfortunate situation. I, like I did. Was not planning on putting her with some kind of like a scheme to make Rachel pay for anything. Yeah. And I said that so many times. It's just, what can you do? It was an unfortunate situation.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Do you wish you were still friends with her?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

No.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Why not?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Because with friends like this, you don't.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Need enemies because she pressed charges against you.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I just not interested in her as a person after having observed the way she handled the situation.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So did you stay friends with people from that time? Time?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Like.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Like a ton of people. I'm still friends with them, yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Were there a lot of people who abandoned you at the time that you thought you. That you thought you were friends with and they. When you needed them, they weren't there? Or, or did the opposite happen? Did you have more people wanting to be friends with you?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I guess, maybe. I guess going to jail is a pretty isolating experience. Like you find out who's your friend because it's pretty annoying process to like having to reach out to somebody in jail. Like it's very unfriendly and the apps are really bad and you have to like go for this dep State system. I guess the people who mattered, they stuck by me because I don't know, give it parents, I had my friends, I don't know what else.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Did you have visitors in prison all the time?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Was it mainly friends?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

When you were at the trial and then suddenly you got sentenced, what was your reaction when you found out you were sentenced to how much time? Four to 12 years. Yeah, that's right. And what was that like when you heard that number?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

It was frustrating. It was almost the maximum because my minimum could have been no jail time and five years probation. And I thought the reasoning was used for my almost max sentence for me as a first time nonviolent offender. The judge sent something like Instagram. So you don't inspire the Instagram people on Instagram even. I was in jail the whole time, so I didn't make a single post and I have not given a single interview.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So the judge thought you were sort of an influencer, so they wanted to make you sort of an example of.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Exactly.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Of what can go wrong if you.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Do what you did.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Which I didn't Think was necessarily fair. But at that point I was almost done. Like I had more than halfway through.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So did you cry in court when you heard the sentence?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

No, I mean, just like it's. I don't like to cry in front of like cameras because in state. In state court they allow cameras to be there. And it's just like this is. They want you to collapse and like do something crazy and cry. And I think like. Like you shut down more than like, I don't know.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Do you cry when cameras aren't there? Did you cry?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

No. I obviously was upset. Nobody's happy. But being sentenced to go to prison.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And what was prison like? Who did you meet? Like, I've heard you say that some of your favorite people were actually the murderers. The female murderers.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

What?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Tell me. Yeah, tell me about who you met and what that was like.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

So you go through Bedford, which is a maximum security prison for like classification and orientation. I stayed there maybe for like about a month, six weeks. I met Pamela Smart there. To die for. She's pretty interesting. What's her story?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Sorry? To die for.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

To die for. She is the teacher.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Oh, I haven't seen it yet. Okay. Yeah.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

She basically convinced her students to murder her husband.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Wow.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I guess so they say.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And you met her there at Stford?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah. Yeah, like at that point she did, I guess, like almost 30 years. And she has no possibility of parole. Wow. Which is kind of sad.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

What was she like?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

She was really nice. Yeah. She has like multiple degrees now. She works. She's like a chief of the grievance. She has her own office. She has like lots of jewelry. I mean that was like her kingdom there. She was very friendly. She found me. She asked me if I like needed anything. Because when you just get to like a new prison, you don't really have any of your own items and it's like really frustrating. You have to like use states stuff.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

How long were you at Bedford?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I think between four and six weeks. Something around that.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And then you moved where?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Then they transferred me to Albion, which is all the way by Canada. And what was that, like seven or eight hours away? I don't know. I didn't like prison at all. I got r. Now it's. It's. Yeah, it's like. No, that was medium and it was really far away. That was really frustrating because. Yeah, it's like, I think eight hours away from the city.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Was that the worst one you stayed at?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I think that all of them are pretty bad. When you're in pre trial detention, you are not considered convicted yet. So they cannot make you do anything. So I had my whole day to myself. So I was reading, like, writing, I was on the phone, like, there was no schedule that they could impose on me. And I ended up kind of like living in high security, like, area. And you don't really, like, interact with. Because it's a revolving door if you live in the wrong area. And, like, you don't want that. Like, we had people who did, like, kind of like longer periods of time, less fights, and like, less disruptions.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

This was pretrial. This is before you actually were sentenced?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yes.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Which is insane to me. I think I read the other day that it was something like 600,000 people in the US are in jails and prisons in pretrial conditions. So they haven't actually been sentenced or in jail, I guess.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Which is a really high number.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And you were one of them.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, exactly. I think they switched the law in New York, I think, in 2021, once I was already in prison, that if you have a nonviolent offense, you can't. They can't even hold you in jail. But I was already sentenced.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And so once you were sentenced, what was prison like? I think most people have a very different idea of what the reality is inside prison.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I mean, I hated it. I asked my lawyer if he couldn't transfer me back to Rikers.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Really? You wanted to be back? You preferred Rikers to Alpyan?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah. Why is that? Because I didn't. Like, they put you. They make you do jobs or they put me in school because they could not verify that I finished high school. So you have to get the school that you graduated from. Fax them the proof of your graduation so they wouldn't accept anything from you, your family. And until they have that, they make you take like high school equivalency diploma classes. And it's like at 8 in the morning I was like learning basic math and I was really frustrating. And so I had to do that for I guess like a month or two until I got a hold of my German school and they faxed them the diploma and I had to like work in the kitchen for a bit, like a culinary class. Like, I'd rather. I'm really good entertaining myself, so I don't need to have like a state mandated job.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So you'd rather be reading books or doing something?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Exactly.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

What kind of people did you meet in prison and how did that affect you?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

So state prison is interesting because everyone kind of gets to have the same experience. Some of the people end up there because the offense is just not like serious enough for them to be in mass max. Others just like have been in max for like 20 years. I think you end up in medium if you have less than eight years left until your earliest parole hearing. So you could have done like 40 years.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Wow.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

And then you get transferred to medium or this is just like your sentence. Yeah. So it's interesting, like I kind of met everyone. Drug dealers, a girl who like set her boyfriend on fire because he cheated on her. Just anyone like any crime that state, they would end up kind of in the same place. And that was interesting to me that everyone just gets the same experience no matter what the offense is.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Is it true that you liked the murderers more or that they were more interesting to you?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I guess I just like, like smart people who have interesting stories. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Is it, is it very cliquey? Was it sort of hard to find a group? Do you have to find a group? Is it like in male prisons? I heard that this is a lot what happens. You go in and you kind of have to find your group that protects you. Is it the same thing in a fe prison?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I guess, like I was always like kind of famous in prison, so.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yes and no. It just like depends. Like a lot of it is very like food oriented too. It's like the people who don't have support from the outside, they have to rely on people who do. Because state is actually really sad. There is no way for you to really like earn any money. I think the most money I've earned in a State prison was $10 in two weeks. Yeah. So unless you have somebody who is putting money on you books on the outside, like you just, you cannot do anything, you cannot get anything. And that's really frustrating because at least you should be able to slick support yourself so much.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Like in the outside world, if you have money, you're doing better off than you do when you're in prison.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

But it's on the outside world. Like you can find a way to make money.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Money and like do something for yourself in prison. There's just absolutely no way. Unless. I don't know, was it.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So were your parents helping you at the time to get you money? Yeah.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And did that also make you more popular? I guess. Or did that help you inside? No, I mean, having money, I guess.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

There are tons of girls who. You don't need that much money to be like rich in prison. So it's like, it's really hard to be like really, really like Loaded and, like, show it off. They're just like, what's the point?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Right. Yeah. There's not a lot to spend on, right?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

No, yeah. I mean, I guess, like, if you're into drugs, that's, like, a big thing because it's access and, like, cigarettes. Not a smoker.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So did you see a lot of contraband in prison?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Oh, yeah. Like what, Mag? All kinds of drugs. Yeah, I guess that's the biggest.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

How's it being brought in, do you know?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Oh, I could only guess. I don't know. I guess the visitors, officers, the correctional officers.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

And it's, like, sad because they're so underpaid, and this is kind of like what you have to resort to.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Did you ever. Did they ever. Did anyone ever ask you if you wanted to do some. If you wanted to buy drugs?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Sure, yeah. I mean, it's, like, always an option. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And I'm assuming you said no, or did you.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

No, I'm not into drugs, no.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And did you see people actually using drugs inside?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You know, my show that I've done for many years on National Geographic, School traffic tends about black market, so I'm very interested in how drugs get into prison and how they're transferred and sold and all that. So was there a large number of people doing drugs in prison?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

There was a decent amount of people, yeah. They kind of, like, obviously tried to keep it on the low because it gives your perceived enemies so much leverage, because then you can just like, drop a tab and, like, snitch somebody out. But, yeah, it's a big economy, and I don't know, I guess it comes through sometimes it's like, through the relatives of the prisoners that would bring it in just because the margins are so high. Like, you can sell very cheap drugs. Like, if a drug is cheap on the street, it's very expensive on the inside. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

What about beauty stuff? I mean, we're both women. Like, I wouldn't like my roots to grow out.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, yeah. Obviously that. Yeah. That's like, a big one. Yeah. The only good thing about prison in comparison to Riker, like, in Rikers, you have to buy stuff that they offer you in commissary while in prison. There is a way to get packages from the outside. So they do let some of the stuff. And it just cannot have any alcohol. And it has to be, like, small enough for them to. For them to let in. So I had, like, some hyaluronic acid. You can get, like, some stuff in if you're lucky enough. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Hyaluronic acid to put in your face.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah. Like cream. So let some of the stuff in.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah. Were there people doing your hair or is it that exists like beauty parlors in prison? Were there?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

They do, yeah. They actually have like a cosmetic rheumatology, like a school. And like, sometimes you can get like, you drop a tab and you get like a haircut by one of the girls who, like, studies to get a license. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Cool.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

And you hope that she doesn't hate.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You or shave your hair off.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Exactly.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Anything can give you one of those, like, punk hairdos or something.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I think they offer like, perm and just cuts. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Did you do it?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

A perm?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

No, no, not a perm. But did you get your hair done?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah. I mean, that's the only kind of way to do it. And I got it know, I just would cut my hair.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

A perm sounds kind of fun.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Nobody else is going to see you anyway. What were you. So you were super famous in prison, right?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I don't want to call myself super famous. I guess, like, people knew who I was. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Did you get a lot of letters from outside?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Saying what?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

It's just like usually men say.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

What were they saying?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Just, I guess they would like, offer money or like they would send pictures or I'd get like a couple nasty ones. Somebody from Texas. That was really funny. He says, like, oh, you should thank me for paying for your upkeep or something. I was like, I'm sorry, you're in Texas. In Texas.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

What did he mean?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

He means, like, he's working so hard for me to sit in jail. I don't know. Even though I'm the state of New York. So he only has a tentative grasp on.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And you got some marriage proposals as well?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, Yeah, I guess men think. Yeah, I'm like, really desperate.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So was that the idea sort of of, you're in prison now, but if you come out, I'll marry you?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I guess. Yeah. For, like, me to be able to stay.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Oh, in the U.S. yeah.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Right.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Because they knew. Huh.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Have you ever considered that I would never just marry somebody I married?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

It kind of worked for me.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Did he write you a prison letter?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And then what was it like? What was the first thing you did when you first left prison?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Well, it actually happened multiple times when I got, like when I got out of criminal prison and the ICE jail. But somebody picked me up and they brought me my phone. So I was like, on my phone most of the time. Yeah. And we had to. It was Covid time so they did not transfer me back to a prison downstate. We had to drive from Albion. So that whole day, like, we were driving. We were in a car.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And what did that feel like?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I mean, it's great. It's like. I guess the feeling disappears, I guess way too quick. But you never know what you have until it's, like, taken away from. Yeah. Like, it's amazing to be in a car, wear your own clothes. Like, wear black. It actually feels so weird to wear black after not having worn it in forever.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Were you wearing orange? Was that your prisoner?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

No, I don't think anybody, like, really wears orange.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

It's a thing from.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

From movies. It's like, high security when you're, like, on show or, like, when you're getting transported. Usually, like in Rikers, I wore tans. And when you convicted in the state of New York, you wear greens.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Okay. So it was great to wear black again.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah. Or eat food. Like, that's amazing. Yeah, that's.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I was stuck in a military coup in Niger once, and I was only there for 10 days, but things got really dicey. And when we were eating the same food, we were stuck in this sort of, like, old decrepit hotel and eating couscous every single day for forever. And I will never forget. And me, it was just 10 days, so I can only imagine. But I will never forget when I. When we first got out and we had a plane that came and sort of rescued us in the middle of the night, and it was all sort of, like, very surreal. But the food that they served us on the plane was an English breakfast, which I don't even particularly like, but I've never tasted anything. Nothing ever tasted so good as that sausage and scrambled eggs.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Exactly. Yeah. It's like you only appreciate it once it's taken away from you. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah. And I remember also when I landed back in US thinking I've never been happier to be here, and thinking that everything beautiful and amazing and this was only, like, 10 days.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes I guess, like, people need to go to jail Mart, in order to appreciate what they have. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Are you hoping you don't go back to jail? I'm assuming.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I mean, yeah, I don't. Yeah, obviously.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So what. What is your life like now?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I live in downtown Manhattan and just, like, working on my project. So what are the projects? So I'm actually working on a prison reform and, like, a couple of my fashion projects. And we have. Kelly Catrone and I, we have a production company.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And what's the Production company Media.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

What are you hoping to do? Like, what. What interests you?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

A documentaries, TV stuff. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Are you doing. Are you working on a documentary about your life, about yourself?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

No, somebody else is working on that. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Are you collaborating with them?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like with my involvement, but, um, I, like, I don't get to have the final say on that one. But with Kelly, you were working like on something completely different.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Um, you were actually paid for the Netflix for inventing Anna, right?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Uh, yeah, they paid me. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

How much, do you mind me asking?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

It was like about 320, I think. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Were you happy at the time before? I know you haven't watched it, but when they offered you the money, was it. Were you happy with doing it? Did you want it to be out there or did you do it more for the money?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Um, no. I guess it was like, never certain it was actually going to happen. I guess at first they like optioned it for a year and then it actually got produced. It was never like, oh, here is all this money and buy. So it was like always in stages and it was always a possibility, like, it's not going to happen or it's not going to come out. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Are you. Is. Is it still in your dreams to build a sort of what your idea for the Anna Delvey foundation was?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

No.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Would you still like to do that one day?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

No.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Why not?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I think I just moved on from that stage of my life, I think. Yeah. It's like, okay to have some ideas when you're younger and it's fine to grow out of them. I don't think anyone needs, like, the world does not need another private members club.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

What do you think are your best qualities and your biggest insecurities?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Oh, no, that's so hard. I don't really like talking about myself that much. I guess I'm like, resilient and I like to figure out a way out of, like, a difficult situation, for better or for words, worse. And like, a ton of insecurities. I don't know. I think, like, I was way more confident before I was back on social media. I don't know, it's like really hard to, like, not let the world, like, tell you who you are.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Do you read all the comments and everything people say about you?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Sometimes it's just like, unavoidable. I do. Because it would be, like, really kind of narcissistic or like, sociopathic to just be able to block everything out. And it's like, oh, I don't care. About anyone says like it's interesting to.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Me or self preservation. Right. Because there's a lot of really nasty comments out there in general for everyone. So it's a way. I know a lot of people that don't like famous people that don't read any comments. I do because it's my work and I always like to see what people say. But a lot of people just don't want to.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Because it can bring the person really down.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, I read some of it. Not everything all the time. Like I discovered like I was on radio Reddit. There's just so much social media and like Facebook. It's not just like the social media even like knew existed or like YouTube comments, it's everywhere. Or page six, like New York Times, New York Post comment section. That's a great one. I think that's the worst one.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Really? What do they say?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Never anything nice. Like 99.9% of New York Post comment section. That's the most brutal one.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So what are your instances? Insecurities. You didn't answer that.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

And I like, I wish I could go back to like being younger and not like now I'm so scared. I have so much to lose and like I'm less fearless because back then I'm like, well what's the worst thing that can happen? Like let me just email this person and see what's going to come out of it. Like now I would never do that because yeah, there's just like so many preconceived notions of me and I cannot just like go out and like do whatever. Like I don't have like a clean slate to work with.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

It's interesting because you could see at the other way, right? You could see that before you had a clean image and you had never done anything to get you in trouble and now you've actually done time in prison. So it. I can be whoever I want because I've already done sort of pretty bad things, you know.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, I guess it has like its upsides and downsides but do you think.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You have more of an image to sort of safeguard now than you did before? I guess because now you're a very well known person and it's tougher for you.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I guess it's easier in like certain things, it's tougher in others.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

But you still have an answer to the insecurity. So I'll tell you, I'll share mine. So I've. Since a young age I always thought I wasn't very smart and it's always been my Insecurity. Even though I'm a journalist, even though I'm very curious as a person. But that's always. Which is why I hate going on stage and talking to a large group of people. I'll talk on camera for hours with no trouble, but if I have like hundreds of people looking at me while I'm supposed to talk, I always think I'm. I'm not sure if I can do this because I don't think I'm very smart. Whereas not. I'm not as smart as I would. I wish I was.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So what's yours?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I guess it's like I now second guess myself way more and now doubting myself, like, had I made the right choices and I guess, like, wasting time is a big thing of mine. I was like, I could have left the States, I don't know, like in 2021. But like, I spent so much time and money, like, trying to fight all of this. And I was like, was it all worth it?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Was it.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I don't know. It remains to be seen.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So what needs to happen for it to all to be worth it, I guess, in your life?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I don't. I guess, like, I just need to. Hopefully one of the projects I'm working on is going to work out and I will be able to kind of like, rewrite my history or do something that's more interesting and maybe bigger. And I don't want to be remembered by my crime. And I want to be like, that's the only thing that people associate me with for the rest of my life. That'd be very frustrating.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So what do you want to be remembered for?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Oh, that's like, I'll share that once I'm successful at something. I don't want to jinx anything.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

But you want to be known as sort of an entrepreneur or somebody who did something, made something, created something.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I'd love to, yeah. Like have my own successful business.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You're doing pretty well right now. You. You're an artist too, right? You do art and you sell your art part time. Yeah. Right. You have a production company, you're working on projects, you're writing your book. When you were in prison, did you think that this was all in the cards for you? That this was possibly going to happen to you?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

No, not really. But you kind of like take it day by day and step by step, but yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Did you think your life was over? I mean, what were your thoughts? You thought, okay, this is it. I'm move back with my parents, live in the basement.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

No, I would never. No, I'm moving back with my parents. I wouldn't want to do that. That was like. I guess that's the biggest motivation, like, moving back with my parents is to.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Not have to move back with your parents. The biggest motivation? Yeah.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I guess it's like when you're in J prison, you always. You never know what's going to happen because when you're in prison, when you're sentenced, you still go to a parole board and you're waiting for their decision. So they might have denied me and I might have, like, have to stay longer. But, like, I always knew I was probably going to be able to, like, figure something out. You take the cards that you've been dealt with and you try to make something out of it. It's like, it's also pointless to complain and cry and be the victim because in the end, I don't know, like, we're all going to die and nobody's going to to think of any of us. Like, in 50 years, the people, the future generation, they will have their own icons and celebrities and famous people. None of us are really going to care.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You are sort of an icon, and I know you don't like the idea of glamorizing your crime, but you are an icon for a lot of people and a lot of people look up to you even though you did what you did. How do you feel about that? Are you comfortable with that idea?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I mean, I don't use that in self. Right. Preference, but I guess it's nice that I have people who, like, see that my attentions were good and that they feel like they feel I'm the person worthy of looking up to and, like, I'll try not to disappoint and actually create something.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And on the flip side, there's a lot of people that don't like you and that say pretty nasty things about you, including people who are very close to you and friendly with you. How does that make you feel?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

It is. It is what it is. I mean, not a lot of them have made much out of themselves, so that kind of speaks for itself, too. It depends on the source.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So, I mean, that's not a very nice thing to say. I mean, what does that mean? They didn't make anything for themselves, I guess.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Like, who are you referring to?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I guess. Yeah, I guess. I guess it would be Rachel Williams or what was the name of the trainer? Casey Duke. Right.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah. I would consider both of them failures because they only exist, like, in connection with me. They don't have Anything else. And, like, they have not managed to channel, like, any. Anything for themselves. Everything that's being said or written about me is in the context of me.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

But did they do something that made you not like them? I mean, I guess Rachel pressed charges against you, but, yeah, they've been out publicly saying not very nice things about you. Right. But I guess there's a way to. I don't know personally what your relationship was with them, but I guess there's a way that you can say, yeah, I fucked up. I did some pretty bad shit to them, and I understand why they're pissed off. Off at me.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah. And that all of that happened. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Okay, Moving on. Some people say that they don't feel like I spent a lot of time talking to people who've done time in prison and have done bad things that landed them in trouble. And there's a lot of people just taking ownership of what they did. And there's real sort of people who are really, really repentant and feel really bad about what they did. Do you feel that way?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah. Yeah, I think, like, I said that I apologize so many times. It's just nobody is inclined to kind of highlight that part.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I disagree. I think that a lot of people that I've spoken, you know, I've spoken to people who trafficked cocaine and ran illegal gambling then and, you know, like, robbed people for drugs and all this sort of really much worse, in many cases, much worse crimes than you did. I mean, I've spent my career interviewing criminals. And, you know, once they do time in prison and once they're clean and out of the criminal world or, you know, out of trouble and trying to restart their lives, they are much more open about their past and what they did, and they feel much more comfortable talking about. About it more than I felt. You feel comfortable about it.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I guess the big part of it. My current appeal is still pending. So.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

What does that mean?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

It means what it is. My criminal appeal is pending, so it means. Yeah, the first round.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So you don't feel comfortable talking about.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Stuff that you did. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

But even though it's almost.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

So my conviction is basically not considered final. If I, like, die tonight, I'm technically not convicted, like, in the eyes of law, like in the eyes of public, obviously.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So because you're. You're appealing.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yes.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And what is it that about the case that you thought should be appealed? What is it that they didn't get right? What. What is it that you're trying.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

It's like, it's a complicated Thing. Yeah, it's just like. It's a lot of stuff, too.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So in many ways that. Yeah, you're not repentant because you actually don't believe you did what they say you did.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I am repentant, but I guess I just don't understand the obsession with my relationship. Remorse and I think words are kind of cheap and actions, I guess, speak louder. Of course, anyone can just come out and say how sorry they are and then don't really mean it.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah, very true.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

And I said I was remorseful for the choices I made in the past, but I don't know, I think remorse is looking back and not accepting who you are today. So. Yeah, I just don't understand, like, what makes you think that I'm not repentant or remorseful?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And so you said actions are bigger than words. What can you tell me? Some. You mentioned prison reform, exactly.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Well, I have not had a single violation. I have not committed any more crimes, and I'm rebuilding my life when I'm trying to, like, make something out of it. How is that bad? How is it a bad thing?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I'm not saying it's bad. I think it's good. What about prison reform? Can you tell me? You mentioned you were involved in prison reform. Tell me about that.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, I'm, like, actively working on something. I just don't, like, don't want to jinx it, and I'm in talks with.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

But do you think there needs to be prison reform? There are things about the prison system that you think should be reformed?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Absolutely. I think prison system in the form that it's now, it's like, abusive and punishing, and it turns people into better criminals. I don't think it's, like. I don't think it's about rehabilitation.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah. Am I the only person that's said that interviewing you is very hard?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

No.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So what is it? Why do you think that is? Why do you make it so hard? I mean, essentially, you're making this very hard for me. Why do you think? Why are you making it hard? Why do you make it hard for people to talk to you?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I think I'm just having a conversation. I don't know. I'm not. I have no reason to even do this. I don't know. I don't care. You're not paying me, so I know. I'm like, I came here. I appreciate you being.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Absolutely. And I appreciate.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I really appreciate it.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And I'm not trying to make this hard for you, but I am trying to understand you a little Bit better. And one of the things people say is that you are not remorseful. And so I'm trying to give you the opportunity to show that you are. And I don't want you to think that I'm.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

So if I were to say I'm remorseful, that's it? You're going to accept it and move on and start.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Podcasts are made of words, right? So it's whatever you feel like saying.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Okay.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

It's up. It's up to you.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Okay. Are you waiting for me to say it?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I am.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Okay. I apologize for the mistakes I've made in the past, but.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

But are you sorry for the mistakes you made?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Isn't that the same thing?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah, but I'm re asking it, I guess.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Sure. Yeah. Is that going to be the title?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Anna Delvey is very sorry for what she did.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Let's do it. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

But are you?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yes.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And do you think that if you'd go back, you did things differently, and what would you have done differently if you'd go back?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

So I hate that question because obviously I would have, like, I'd like to skip the jail experience and all the negative parts, but you just don't get that choice. So there's pointless. There's no scenario where I get to go back. So it's a pointless question to, like, ponder, really.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Would you, you know, pass those bad checks and fake documents? Would you, you know, No.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I mean, I probably. I'll, like, try to marry Rich and sit at home. It's actually much easier to, like, being out there and, like, being exposed to any kind of scrutiny. I don't know. I would not do anything that involves, like, being in a public eye. I don't know.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You wouldn't?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Are you.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Are you just being. Sarcasm? Is this sarcasm?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Or are you serious to you too decipher.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Seriously, Anna, are you. Did. Would you want to. If you'd go back, would you do it all again or would you not? It's not a very hard question.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

No, I would not do it again.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And at what point? What would you have done differently?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I guess it just depends on the circumstances. I don't know.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You wouldn't have married Rich and not done anything and stayed in your home, so I know that's sarcasm.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Maybe. I don't know.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Are you hoping to still marry Rich?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

No comment.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Okay. How's your love life? Speaking of.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

It's okay.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Are you dating?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You are?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I can tell. You really want to talk about this?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

No. No boyfriend reveal on this podcast. I'm sorry.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

How Long have you been dating for.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

For too long, I guess. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

The same person?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Are you in love?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Sure.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah. Does anyone know? Is it public? Do people know who you're dating?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

People who know, they know, yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Are you happy?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I could be happier.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

In general, you mean?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I think like being content is bad for you.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

That's, that's, yeah, I, I, that's part of your, your, which is, I think what a lot of people sort of admire about you. Right. Is that you dream big and you're never happy with who you are, where you are. You, you want more. And I think that's part of the idea, admirable side of you. Right.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Thank you.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You're welcome. You see, I also say nice things. I, I actually think I've been very nice to you. I've just asked you questions about your past, which is why you're here.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Said you were not nice.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

No. But you don't like my, my questions.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I've been asked worse.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Like what?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

There were some really bad interviews. It's mostly like middle aged man.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So it is interesting you mentioned that because I did see some interviews that you had with Jake Tapper on CNN and the guy in 60 Minutes Australia. And I did feel that, I felt that.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Oh, I like Jake. Don't throw him.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I actually like Jake too as a journalist, so I'm not trying to badmouth him. But some of the clips they used, you could see that they were making you feel uncomfortable. And at the time I thought this is probably because it's middle aged men.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

But I'm gonna be able to connect with Anna because I'm a woman and I do this for a living. But now I understand that it's actually, you're harder to connect than I previously thought.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I don't know what to say.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Do you agree that you're not an easy person, you don't like opening up about yourself and that it's hard to talk about?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I guess I share what I think it's okay to share. It's like, I don't think, I don't feel obligated to just.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Of course, yeah, yeah.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

To answer any of your questions. So I think, think if it's something that I think could be in like work to my detriment, like why should I? Because what am I getting out of this? I just don't like, like to be pressured by the media because if I were to answer every single question I'm being asked, like I just have to like protect myself too and have like a little bit of whatever fake Illusion of control. So.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So I'm not the worst interview you've ever given?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

No, absolutely not. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Who was it?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I guess the 60 Minutes guy was horrible. Yeah. It just depends. Like, I kind of grouped them. Was it like a TV thing or just like a podcast? They were really bad ones, so just. I don't know.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

What was your favorite one?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yours? Of course.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Good one, Sherika. I was hoping you would say that.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

The last one is always the best one.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

What's your favorite question you get asked?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

What is my favorite question? I don't. I don't have one.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Because there are a lot of questions you don't like. So I'm trying to give you a soft one. What's. What's something that you like to talk about?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I guess, like, something that's focused around what I'm doing now.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah. But even that I've tried. You don't want to talk about prison reform because it's. You're hoping not to jinx it. You don't want to talk about the production company.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, I just feel like I just don't have enough info and I don't know, once it's ready to go, then I'll talk about. About it.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Are you still doing art? Are you still making those? They're really. I really like them, by the way.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Thank you.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Are they popular?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And where do you sell them? How. How can people sell them a prints.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Now actually sold out of my main collection, and people, like, reach out to me all the time about, like, commissions. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Wow. How much do you sell them for the originals?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I think it's, like, between 20. I'm like, around 20. Depends, depending on the size, guys.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And. 20,000.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah. And the prints go for, like, 250.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

250,000.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

No, $250.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Sorry. Print.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Do you see yourself as an artist?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Maybe. Yeah. I think there are better ones than people who, like, cannot imagine themselves doing anything else. So I don't want to say I'm just, like, in the same league. I think I'm an artistic person.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And is that. Is that your main source of income right now or what is your main source of income right now?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I'm working on some projects, so I have multiple sources of income.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You're also being invited to do a lot of fashion shows, right? And fashion shoots. How's that? As somebody who always was interested in fashion. How's that?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

It's great. Yeah. I love fashion.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah. Okay.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I'm just trying to get you to talk about the stuff you like. To talk about. So I heard an interview where you said that you felt that you have sort of little attachment to your family name because you change your name. How do you spell. How do you pronounce your last name before you change to Delphi? Was Anna Sorokin.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Sorokin. Oh, that's still my legal name. I mean, the only reason I came up with Delphi is because I wanted to be Googleable, because Sorakin is like. It's a. It means a bird. So it's like. It's a very common last name. There are so many Anna Sorakians out there. It's like a bit like Jane Smith. So was your.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Were your parents. Was your dad sad when you changed your name?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I never, like, changed it. I started using it, like, as a cat caption for purple because I wanted, like. I'd be, like, undiscoverable had I continued to use Sorakian. And that was, like, all there is. And I didn't want to use anybody else's name. And it's really hard to, like, come up with something that just doesn't exist. And I didn't want to, like, do anything about my first name.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

What's your relationship with them right now? You said you have a good relationship with your parents, right?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, yeah, more or less. Yeah. I was, I guess, as good as it ever was. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

When did you. You. When you. Did they find out that you had been arrested through you, or. How did they find out?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

No, I think the embassy, like, sent the cops to their home. I had. No way. It's like, it's really hard to make international phone calls. I don't think it's possible.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And what did they say when they first spoke to you after that?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I mean, I'm sure it was a pretty stressful experience for them, and. But I was traveling so much. Like, at some point, like, my parents did not know, like, what continent I was on because I moved out when I was 19. So it's like. It's a bit different than I just left home and then the next day get arrested.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I don't know.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, I think they, like, kind of. It was a learning curve for them as well, you know, like, for them to, like, learn to, like, live with that experience. And they've been harassed by the reporters and the photographers, so is that hard.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

For you to know that you're.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

It's upsetting. Yeah. Yeah. It makes me, like. Second question. If I want to have kids, like, imagine one of them becomes a famous criminal. You just don't get to control that. And you have to take that shit.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Chance, do you think? Yeah, I guess. They are the parents of a famous criminal.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah. For better or for worse.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

But they've been there throughout to support you still, right? They're. They're still supporting you and helping you and not financially. Not financially anymore. Yeah. Do you think they still love you?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

That's a good question. For them, I mean. I would hope so.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Wait, you talk to them all the time, right?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, I mean, I don't ask them if they love me.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Me? No. You guys don't say I love you.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

After a call or. No, not really.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

That's not the relationship you ever had with him.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I thought it's like just a different culture.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And you have a little brother.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Do you get along with him?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Did you not talk to him that often?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I mean, we just kind of grew up kind of separately. Got left home when he was 6, and he's like, 21 now, so we are friendly, but we don't really have that many shared experiences just because he was so young when I was still living at home.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

So you're not sure if you want to have kids? Do you want to get married?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, I don't think it means much to me necessarily. Like, I don't know. Sure, why not? I don't have, like, any strong feelings.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And is it real that you don't know if you want to have kids?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I don't know. Do I have to decide now?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

No, you don't. Yes. Please, please tell me right now.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Okay.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You said it was in a podcast. You said that you had little attachment to your birth name or to your country. You grew up in Russia. And I wanted to ask you about. Do you still feel that way?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I just think generally I don't have any nationalistic pride or attachment to any place because I moved around so much, and I've kind of been displaced from place to place. So I never. Really. Growing up in Russia, I always knew I was going to leave and I was going to go to school in Germany. So you kind of always, oh, I'm on my way out. Then in Germany, I also decided I wanted to move somewhere else. So I never really, like, lived anywhere with, like, intent to stay. It's the way, like, I really love New York. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Is this more of your home than anywhere else, you think?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I think New York has the place that felt more of a home than anything else. It's like, when I'm in New York, I don't really wonder what's out there. Like, what Some who, like, what are people doing in Paris tonight? But, like, when I'm in Europe, everyone's like, I'm wondering what's happening in New York. And I guess that's the only place where I feel that way. Like, I don't feel like foam.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You feel FOMO when you're out of New York and you don't feel it when you're here.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Because you feel like it's the center of everything.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

It just lets. That's what my friends are. And that's where, like, I wouldn't call it a center. I guess it's different for everyone.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Do you think that. That, you know, I. I understand the detachment because I've also lived all over the world, and although I'm very still close to Portugal, and I'm very proud about being Portuguese, and I talk about Portugal all the time, but I also feel like I've been an American citizen for almost 10 years now, and I feel.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Did they make you give up U.S. citizenship with Portuguese?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

No, I was able to keep both. And I love this country, and obviously it's given me so many opportunities.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

You better say the right things beforehand.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I know. Especially now. Especially now. But. And so there is a certain. To be able to do the work that I do and to be able to have lived where I've lived, you know, even, like, moving from. I had all my group of friends in Portugal, my family, and then I moved to Italy when I was very young, and then I moved many other countries. And there's a certain detachment that you need to be able to do that. Right. Or else I'd be missing my country, my family so much that I wouldn't want to move away. But I never had that. I always wanted. I knew what I wanted, and I always moved in that direction. But it can also be seen sometimes as being a little cold. Right. And I know that people around me sometimes. Sometimes felt that, oh, maybe she's too sort of focused on her ambition and her dreams and goals and. And she's. And I can be seen as a little bit cold.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Do you feel like you're that. Like that? Do you feel like people see you as cold, or do you feel like you are cold?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I mean, I don't really care. Like, you cannot be everything to everyone, and you just do whatever. Like, you just have to try to make yourself happy without, like, breaking the law, I guess.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah. But I mean, I. I'm. I'm sad that I make myself. My friends, you know, miss me. I'm sad that sometimes they Say, I really wish you spent more time here. Or I feel like you don't really care about spending time here as much as you. We want you to kind of thing. Or. My family says that. My mom says that all the time. Do you, do you feel that at all? Do you feel.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I think modern technology makes it easier to stay in touch with people all around the world.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah, that's true.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I. I think like my work makes me more happy. Happy than just having, I guess, like the same group of friends. And I don't see myself, like, what's the alternative? I just sit at home and like talk to my friends all day and not do anything?

[Mariana Van Zeller]

No, no, no. I'm just wondering if you feel, if you feel. Do you think you're cold, a cold person? Do you feel you have like an emotional detachment from people?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

That's not apt for me to say. I guess I let people in who are my friends and I'm warm with them. I don't. I'm like, I'm not one with everyone. With every single person that I meet. There's no reason for me to. So I think it's the 2. 2 blanket over term. Yeah. It just depends.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Okay, okay. Okay. Anything you'd want to talk about? No. Oh, one thing I loved that I wanted to mention was you mentioned how when in an interview you gave, you mentioned how you would dress down for your meetings with the. With banks. And I thought that was really interesting. Can you talk about that?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I think it's, yeah. Pretty self explanatory. I didn't want to seem like I was like eager intern trying to impress anyone.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And so you dress down and they would have to impress. So the idea was that they would have to impress you.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Exactly, yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Do you still do that?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I think like everybody does that. Especially when you're in New York. I don't know. Like, I like to dress up because I've been deprived of that opportunity and now I just don't care. Like, I don't know. Like I go. Like I'm dressed up now because I'm going somewhere.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You are. You have a beautiful black dress and you have high heels and your ankle monitor.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Thank you.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And where are you going, by the way?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

To the Andy Warhol dinner.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Do you. Do you do a lot of social. Do you go out every night? Do you go out a lot?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I wouldn't say I go out a lot, like if it's like a good event. But I don't just like randomly go out. I'm not a partier.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I don't Are you invited to go out a lot to different events?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, I would say so. Yeah.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You're very, very popular right now.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Right.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

People want to invite you everywhere.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

No. Some do, some not, I guess.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Yeah, I guess. How old were you when you. You were 24, 25? Just. I'm going to go to the banks because I did want to talk about that. It's pretty ballsy what you did. Like walking into these rooms full of probably men and portraying yourself as somebody that you were not. Were you nervous at the time when you did this, when you went into these meetings?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

I mean, I don't know. I don't remember. I guess it's like I had this clear vision and I thought, the project will end up working out and I be like, providing value. I did not go into this with this mindset, like, how can I trick this guy? That was never the way I thought about it.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Okay. Your body language changed immediately as soon as I started asking about your past. Okay, Anna.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Right.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I know you have to go. Thank you so much. You were, quite frankly, one of, if not the hardest interview I've ever done.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yay. Thank you.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

You are. You're a hard person to read, and you're a hard person to open up, and obviously I invited you to. For the. To the podcast to talk about your past, but it's clear that you're not super comfortable talking about the past and you're not super comfortable talking about the present. So. Fired leaves me in a very tough position here. But I hope you had a good time.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah. Yes.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Did you?

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah. Yeah, sure.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And I wish you all the best for your future, and I hope I can. Your book comes out and I can. I can read that. And maybe I'll find out a little bit more about you then.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Yeah, exactly.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And hopefully a documentary as well, which I definitely watch.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

You can't wait for that one to come up.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Thank you so much.

[Anna Sorokin (Anna Delvey)]

Thank you. Thank you for having me.