Bad Vegan: Scam, Abuse & Netflix Scandal | Sarma Melngailis Speaks Out

Summary

Podcast Summary

The Hidden Third

Episode: Bad Vegan: Scam, Abuse & Netflix Scandal | Sarma Melngailis Speaks Out
Host: Mariana van Zeller
Guest: Sarma Melngailis
Date: July 29, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Hidden Third features Sarma Melngailis, former owner of the famed vegan restaurant Pure Food and Wine, who recounts her rise, her harrowing descent into a high-profile scam, and her battle for agency over her own story. Host Mariana van Zeller delves into topics ranging from Sarma's background, her relationships with manipulators and conmen, her diagnosis of autism, her experiences as a victim of coercive control and abuse, and the aftermath—including the Netflix documentary "Bad Vegan" and the public's often misguided response. The conversation is rich with psychological insight, personal revelations, and a focus on societal failings in understanding psychological abuse and scams.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sarma's Background and Ambitions

• Childhood & Education: Grew up in Newton, Massachusetts. Her father was an MIT academic and her mother a chef. Attended Wharton, worked in banking and private equity before switching to the culinary world.
  • “I did undergraduate business at Wharton, ...then I left and went to culinary school, just a big 180, and then got into the restaurant business and eventually opened Pure Food and Wine.” (01:35–02:16)
• Motivation: Didn’t set out to open a vegan restaurant, but her personal and professional life converged into the plant-based world through serendipity and past relationships.
• Unique Success: Pure Food and Wine became a hotspot with celebrity regulars and was an industry pioneer—attractive even to non-vegans.
• Financial Vulnerability: Early and later business decisions (ownership buyouts, expansion) left her personally and professionally in significant debt.
  • “I took on a bunch of debt to do that. So I was carrying a lot of debt, both professionally and personally.” (19:12–20:05)

2. The Pattern of Abusive Relationships

• First Experience with a Manipulator: Her initial personal and business relationships involved men who exploited her financially and emotionally.
• Repetition: She and the host discuss why victims are often repeatedly targeted, emphasizing openness, trust, and a tendency for manipulative personalities to "sniff out" vulnerability.
• Autism Diagnosis: Only after "Bad Vegan" did Sarma pursue and receive a formal autism diagnosis, explaining her tendency to take things at face value and why she became a target.
  • “I went and did like a full blown, extensive evaluation, and they did give me a diagnosis of autism one. And so...a lot of things make sense...we tend to be very forthright and take things at face value.” (12:19–14:08)

3. The Anthony Strangis Relationship: Mechanisms of Coercive Control

• How They Met: Through Twitter, believing (mistakenly) that Alec Baldwin’s following of “Shane Fox” (aka Anthony Strangis) was a tacit stamp of approval.
• Love/Validation Bombing: Strangis expertly mirrored Sarma’s dreams, insecurities, and vulnerabilities—building trust and emotional dependence.
  • “I call it like validation bombing....so he knew the right things to say.” (27:19–27:57)
• Strategic Emotional Manipulation: Withholding of facts, mysterious stories about clandestine military or spy work, and ever-shifting narratives limited Sarma’s ability to verify the truth—intentionally constructing ambiguity.
• Escalation & Dissociation: Gradually ramped up fear, isolation, and confusion until Sarma experienced profound dissociation and trauma-bonding.
  • “Meanwhile, I'm getting more and more and more dissociated. So basically he just pulled me into this very hazy world of not knowing what's real and ramping up the level of fear.” (00:00–00:40; 55:52–56:08)

4. The Machinery of the Scam

• Financial Extraction: Progressed from small emergency “loans” to escalating sums, eventually including business withdrawals and involving Sarma’s mother.
• Tests, ‘The Happily Ever After,’ and the “Meat Suit”: Strangis introduced elaborate “tests” and conspiratorial narratives, promising a future in which Sarma would control and profit from her brand, no longer beholden to toxic investors or partners.
  • “He would frame it as if it was all part of this test he was putting me through.” (31:52–32:06)
• Cosmic & Cult-Like Manipulation: Positioned himself as a guru or supernatural protector; convinced Sarma she was “the chosen one” necessary for a world-changing mission, making escape seem not only dangerous but cosmically destructive.
• Isolation and Erasure: Separated Sarma from her business and loved ones, commandeered her communications, wiped digital traces, and impersonated her via email/text to solicit money.
• Sexual Abuse: The pattern included weaponized sexuality, common in cult abuse. (98:42–99:40)

5. Aftermath, Public Reaction, and the Problem With "Bad Vegan"

• Arrest Narrative and Media Sensationalism: The press latched onto trivial details (the “pizza” incident), misrepresenting the true story while exploiting vegan hypocrisy tropes.
• Failed Justice: Strangis served a brief sentence but evaded prosecution for the core fraud and abuse. The criminal justice system failed to recognize coercive control as a real, punishable crime in Sarma’s case.
• Netflix Documentary Issues: The show left out crucial context (including sexual abuse), rearranged conversations for dramatic effect, and deliberately sowed doubt for engagement—leading to undeserved public vitriol against Sarma.
  • Quote: “He even moved my words around in a phone call...taking a reply from over here and replacing what I said here, which was kind of the opposite.” (74:15–78:55)

6. Recovery, Regret, and Advocacy

• Impact on Others: Greatest shame stems not from personal losses but from the trauma inflicted on employees (“family”) and her mother.
• Efforts at Restitution: Used her Bad Vegan earnings to pay back staff who were left unpaid, though the largest debts and emotional losses remain unresolved.
• Ongoing Struggles and Vulnerability: Sarma describes further experiences with manipulative individuals, highlighting how unresolved trauma makes survivors susceptible to repeat victimization.
• Advocacy: Shares her story in the hope of education and prevention, especially for women and neurodivergent individuals who may be “good targets.”
  • “If my story helps people feel less alone and ashamed, that's useful...maybe it’ll prevent it from happening to them.” (95:47–108:16)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On autism and vulnerability:
  • “We tend to be very forthright and take things at face value.” (14:06)
  • “You walk into every situation assuming that people would be forthright because, like, why wouldn't you be?” (14:12)
• On how abusers work:
  • “It's exactly like everything I went through precisely fits the profile of what cult leaders do and how they pull people in.” (27:59)
• On dissociation:
  • “You're functional...but it's like you're not all there.” (56:08)
• On public shaming after Bad Vegan:
  • “What they saw was incomplete, wasn't accurate. I wasn't laughing with him about everything that happened...that part is hard.” (81:01)
• On survivors needing support, not blame:
  • “It’s really meaningful if younger people...understand how this happens...maybe it’ll prevent it from happening to them.” (95:47)
• On psychological control:
  • “If you betray him, if you go against him, it’s like doom will rain down upon you. And that’s very typical in cults.” (92:04)
• On why this story matters:
  • “If it helps some people, then it's better that [Bad Vegan] is not taken off the air...it helps people.” (94:08)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00–00:40: Sarma describes dissociation and fear
• 01:35–06:14: Sarma’s childhood, education, career switch, first destructive relationship
• 12:19–14:08: Autism diagnosis and implications for trust
• 19:07–21:47: Financial pressures, vulnerability, work burnout
• 23:11–27:59: Meeting Anthony Strangis/Mr. Fox online, the manipulation begins
• 29:09–34:48: Love/validation bombing, physical attraction, and speculation over Strangis’ self-delusions
• 41:45–46:15: The “tests,” expanding control, weaponized mysticism
• 55:52–56:08: Dissociation and breaking from reality
• 71:28–75:10: Netflix documentary impact and misleading editing
• 83:23–88:02: Devastating consequences for employees and Sarma's response
• 94:08–95:47: The power of sharing her story for others
• 98:42–100:13: Sexual abuse, cult parallels, and why Netflix left out key details
• 104:12–106:47: Fears for safety and hopes for unmasking her abuser
• 107:08–108:29: Final thoughts on advocacy, education, and healing

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Final Thoughts

Tone:

• Candid and emotionally raw, yet reflective and occasionally wry. Sarma is open about her mistakes, vulnerabilities, and her ongoing journey toward recovery.

Utility for Listeners:

• The episode demystifies scam victimhood, focusing on coercive control, psychological abuse, and how high-functioning, well-educated individuals can become ensnared.
• It calls for greater public understanding, empathy, and legal recognition of psychological manipulation as a criminal act.
• The honesty and depth of the conversation make it an invaluable resource for anyone seeking to understand or support survivors of abuse and fraud.

Call to Action:

• Sarma’s book, The Girl with the Duck Tattoo, is recommended for a more granular look at her experiences.
• The episode serves as both a warning and a comfort to those at risk or already trapped in the webs of manipulators.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[A]

Meanwhile, I'm getting more and more and more dissociated. So basically he just pulled me into this very hazy world of not knowing what's real and ramping up the level of fear. So I was constantly in a state of fear, constantly feel like I was feeling like I was being watched, like this mysterious brother of his or some weird counselor was watching me at all times and just put me in a constant state of fear. And so I just, you know, my reasoning basically detached in a way.

[B]

Sarma, welcome to the podcast. Sarma Melangailis owned the most famous vegan restaurant in the world, Pure Food and Wine, which was packed with celebrities such as Alec Baldwin, Woody Harrelson, Gisele Bundchen, Tom Brady, to mention just a few. And then her life veered into one of the wildest restaurant scandals of the last decade. A controlling relationship, millions missing from her business, an abusing man who claimed he could make her dog immortal, and a story that ended with headlines, handcuffs in the Netflix documentary Bad Vegan, which we'll talk about today. Today, after prison and years of trying to rebuild, she's an author and entrepreneur intent on telling the story in her own words.

[A]

And.

[B]

And you just published a book recently called the Girl with the Duck Tattoo, which I'm looking forward to talking about as well. So, Sarma, welcome to the Hidden Third.

[A]

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

[B]

So you grew up. Tell me a little bit about growing up and what that was like.

[A]

I grew up in a suburb of Boston, a town called Newton. Went to public school, my father was at mit, my mom was a chef. And. And then I went to University of Pennsylvania, did undergraduate business at Wharton, went to, moved from there, moved to New York City and worked in investment banking. And then I worked in private equity

[B]

and for like five years. Right, you worked in banking for five

[A]

years in total, yes, in private equity. And then I worked at a High Yield Fund and then I left and went to culinary school, just a big 180, and then got into the restaurant business and eventually opened Pure Food and Wine.

[B]

Did you always like cooking at home?

[A]

Yeah, I did. I think I learned a lot from my mother without even realizing how much I learned until I went to culinary school and then I realized, wow, I already know how to, I already know how to do a lot. And then I also never anticipated, I didn't know that I was going to eventually become open a vegan restaurant, a plant based restaurant. That was something that happened later on as well.

[B]

When did you become a vegan?

[A]

It's funny because I've never embraced that label because I'm so flexible and. But it was, I guess I was, I was in my very early 30s, so that was over 20 years ago.

[B]

And so. But when you started, when you went to culinary school, that wasn't your intention, like you said?

[A]

No, I was not vegan when I went to culinary school.

[B]

Did you want to open a restaurant at the time? Was that your goal?

[A]

It wasn't my goal. I don't, I don't really know what my goal was. But I ended up working with this guy who had been my favorite chef in the city. And then we ended up in a personal relationship together and I write a few chapters about him in my book because he was my first. He was my first time being in a relationship where the person turns out to not be who you thought they were. And their psychology is, you know, I hesitate to label somebody on a podcast, but there's plenty of evidence out there too. You know, it wasn't just me. He's known for deceiving people over and over and over and again. So that was my first time in a destructive relationship where he got a huge amount of money out of me. And I had. Because I had co invested heavily when I was at Bain Capital and I had bought and sold an apartment in Manhattan. And so what I got into a relationship with him. I had a lot of. For somebody I was, I wasn't yet 30, I think I was 28 or 29 or. I had a fair amount, amount of money for somebody that age at that time. And a year and a half into our relationship, I was in debt by the same amount because I just ended up putting. He had 11 restaurants and I, I didn't know, but they were all in a very precarious position. And so I just kept putting sort of funding our life and then putting more and more money into his businesses and then, yeah, so I ended up in, in debt and then all of his restaurants closed and. But we stayed together as people often do, even when, you know, it's sort of going south because financially you're sort of trapped, like you can't afford to separate. But there were still. I still felt like we were in this life together. I hadn't quite figured out who he really was. And we ended up opening and that's when we together discovered, sort of stumbled upon this raw vegan lifestyle. I'd always been very healthy and into eating a lot of fruits and vegetables and generally living health consciously. But we stumbled onto this idea of raw vegan where everything's plant based and you're not cooking above certain temperatures. And the idea is they're eating food that's like, maximally alive and therefore it's easy to digest and maximally healing for your body. So we stumbled onto that together and both felt so much better than before and then decided to open a restaurant. So we opened the restaurant together and then. But within a year. And we published a cookbook, but before the cookbook even came out. And within a year, our relationship sort of imploded as it eventually it was destined to. And I ended up keeping the restaurant and running the restaurant on my own. And then he went and did other things.

[B]

By the way, he was a famous chef at the time. Right. He was on television sometimes. He was on the city.

[A]

He wasn't the level of fame as, like, Bobby Flay and certain other chefs that all had their own TV shows, but he was sort of a couple notches below that. So in New York, a lot of people always knew who he was. And so he was sort of like celebrity chef. Ish, light. But, yeah, he, you know, it's just in that category of people that lack empathy and so will do whatever they need to do for themselves.

[B]

So it's interesting. So your relationship with the person that we're gonna spend most of the time talking about today is not him. It's Anthony. Strangest.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So, but that was not your first sort of relationship with a man who was not exactly who he seemed initially to be then.

[A]

Yes. And what I've noticed now on the other side of all of this, and having been exposed to so many different people, mostly women, but also a lot of men reaching out to me who've been duped, whether, you know, on a small scale or on a very large scale in a relationship, is that it very, very often happens repeatedly. So whatever it is about me, that makes me a really good target. It's like they can sniff it out. You know, it's not that I'm attracting those types of people. It's that they can smell it on me. And I'm kind of an open book, and I've always been very open.

[B]

So I just spent five weeks traveling on a part work trip, part vacation. And here's the thing about me. Even when I go on short trips, I'm not known for traveling light. I'm an overpacker, and proudly so. So here at a hotel, running super late for an interview and trying to carry an embarrassing number of bags down the stairs all by myself, it was not a Good. Look, trust me. Anyway, the hotel receptionist sees me struggling, but he's with other customers, so I'm thinking, oh, no, just more people to watch me fail here and utterly embarrass myself. However, to my enormous surprise, he runs to help me. I have no idea what he told the customers, but he even helps carry my bags to the car. I made my interview on time, didn't have to break an ankle while doing, and I'm forever grateful to that young man for doing, you know, for going that extra step. So if you're hiring, great candidates can also go the extra step and tell you why they're interested in your job on ZipRecruiter. It's one of the best ways to stand out from the others. And right now you can try it for [e-mail] Hidden third candidates can tell you in their own words why they're interested in your job. And ZipRecruiter's powerful matching technology finds qualified people quickly. Try ZipRecruiter and meet great candidates who'll go the extra step for your job. 4 out of 5 employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free [e-mail] Hidden Third and that's ziprecruiter.com Hidden Third meet your match on ZipRecruiter. So this is something I don't love thinking about, much less talking about. My job can be dangerous. I put myself in risky situations way more than I'd like to admit. And while my team and I are constantly working to minimize that risk, making good decisions, training, preparing for every possible outcome, the truth is, none of us really knows what's going to come next. That's why I'm a big believer in life insurance. Not just for me, but for literally everyone. Because you can't control the outcome of anything in life. Life insurance isn't something you buy for yourself, really. It's something you buy for the people you love and who rely on you so that they're not scrambling and they have one less thing to worry about in what is, you know, the most horrible time of their lives. Fabric by Gerber Life makes it easy to give them that. Fabric by Gerber Life is the term life insurance you can get done today. Made for busy parents like you, all online, on your schedule, right from your couch, you could be covered in under 10 minutes, often with no health exam required. If you have life insurance through work, that's a very good start. But it may be less than what your family actually needs and could disappear if you change jobs. Term life insurance from Fabric follows you wherever you go. Fabric has flexible, high quality policies that fit your family and your budget like a million dollars in coverage. For less than a dollar a day or more or less depending on your needs, there is no risk. There's a 30 day money back guarantee and you can cancel it at any time. Join the thousands of parents who trust Fabric to help protect their family. Apply today in just [e-mail] hidden third meetfabric.com hidden third and use my link so they know I sent you. Meetfabric.com hidden third that's M E E T fabric.com hidden third policies issued by Western Southern Life Assurance Company not available in certain states Prices subject to underwriting and health questions what do you think it is about you in the, in the Netflix show, there's a part where your sister talks about how you are. You were always very shy but also an extrovert at the same time. And I think maybe your sister talks about you being shy. And then there's somebody else that worked with you that talked about how you were actually was the guy that you met when you were a fugitive where he talks about how you were both shy but also were not extrovert and able to talk, have conversations with strangers in a sort of confident way. What do you think it is?

[A]

Yeah, I mean I would definitely say I'm definitely an introvert, but I'm able to, you know, I'm able to like at the restaurant I was able to go out on the floor and talk to people and socialize. But then I'd have to go home and lie on the floor and just zone out. And I think I've gotten more introverted over time. One of the things that I learned that really put a different lens on my life once I learned it and I learned it because of bad vegan on the other side of that show, coming out in the fire hose of feedback I was getting, which a lot of it was really negative and harsh and then some of it was positive and sympathetic. And then within that fire hose there was a trickle of people saying, you know, I think you're on the spectrum. I think you have autism. Have you ever been diagnosed? And the people who were suggesting it were suggesting it very kindly, usually because they themselves had gotten a late in life diagnosis. And that was so interesting to me. And I went and did, you know, I didn't just do the questionnaires online. I went and did like a full blown, extensive evaluation, and they did give me a diagnosis of autism one. And so once. When that happens now, a lot of things make sense in a way that just makes it easier to understand my whole life why I felt out of place and why I felt different and why things that other people were comfortable with, I wasn't or. It's really hard to explain. But I think part of it is that we, you know, if you look at people who have the diagnosis or would get that diagnosis, we tend to be very forthright and take things at face value. Yeah.

[B]

Trustworthy in a way.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so. And I've heard a lot of other people say this too.

[B]

We're not trustworthy. Like, you trust other people.

[A]

Yes. You trust people very easily. And. And I think that this is very common. I know you've been researching cons and scams and all of that. And, you know, when it happens to you, it's very hard to imagine that somebody would be that diabolically cruel. It's almost like you can't. Yeah. It doesn't seem like that is possible. Therefore, you tend to believe that the person is being sincere. And it's also just a default. It's like I walk into every situation assuming that people would be forthright because, like, why wouldn't you be? I'm not. I don't know. I'm not wired that way. But it's definitely. I've noticed through people that reach out to me that I see now, I see qualities in them where even if they don't have a diagnosis, I think, oh, I bet they would get one. Because I can see all of those same qualities that other people saw in me when they watched. When they watched Bad Vegan, such as. And. Well, I think, I think in that show, I think I talked about feeling out of place. And I think there's a scene where my father says that when he and my mother got divorced and they told us that my sister was crying, my older sister, and that I didn't cry at all. And. And then I think people, A lot of people judged me, saying, you know, she's not showing any remorse and she's cold. Cold. And I think I just project in a little bit of like a. Yeah. Awkward way. I don't behave necessarily in the way that people expect sometimes.

[B]

Yeah. So.

[A]

Absolutely. Which is weird because I. I feel like I'm extremely sensitive. But what very often happens is I don't. I don't get emotional in situations where people would expect it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like later on you know, fast forward. When I was sentenced to jail, I didn't cry at all.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I was not. But then, you know, some. I'll witness some sort of heartbreaking moment in jail, or I'll witness some, you know, some small thing or something to do with, like, an animal, and I'll be, like, in tears.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I think some of those things people picked up on in the. In the show.

[B]

Yeah. I think it's different social cues.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Also, probably.

[A]

Yeah. And then I think. I think another thing that. That makes us good targets is that. Is that I think sometimes it takes us longer to process certain things or it takes us longer to process how we're feeling. So it's very typical. It's happened to me a lot in my life where somebody might be a jerk or sort of offensive in a certain way, and maybe not really overtly, but I don't notice it in the moment. So I'll wake up the next day and be really angry, you know, or upset, like, I can't believe that person did that. But it. I don't. It doesn't register until the next day. So if somebody's manipulative, that's like a window. You know, you're able to get somebody to do stuff and agree to it without them really realizing how they feel about it, because we don't process things in the same way.

[B]

You got a lot. You know, I actually just watched for the second time the Netflix show this week because I wanted to prepare for this. But you got. We'll talk about it later. But I know you got a lot of blowback after. And it's interesting because I actually came out of watching the show with. Not at all. With a bad impression of you at all. I saw you completely as a victim. But I know that that was not the case for lots of people who watched it. So I want to talk about that in a second, but we're putting the. What's the saying? The cart ahead of the horse here. So you open this restaurant, you. You eventually separate from this man that you get to own by your. You own the restaurant by yourself. It's incredibly popular at the time. Was this one of the first raw vegan restaurants?

[A]

Yeah, it was really, really. It was a really unique restaurant. There wasn't anything. There was. There weren't any other upscale restaurants that you. People come on dates. They come for special occasions. You know, we had an extensive wine list. We had all these amazing sake cocktails. And when you came in, it didn't feel like a. It didn't feel like a healthy restaurant. Healthy restaurant. It didn't feel like a vegan restaurant. People, like, some parties would come in and think, oh, look at this beautiful, kind of cool, dark, sexy. Lots of red fabrics and a lot of dark wood. We had this beautiful, huge garden in the back that was really special, and the food was really, really good. And so I think probably at least half of our regulars and our customers at any given time weren't vegan, but they would come on a regular basis because they really liked it. And yes, a lot of celebrities came as guests and regulars, and it was really, really fun and really successful. But also, I think behind the scenes, I was struggling a lot more than people realized because. Because I'd been left in a lot of personal debt after that situation with Matthew. And then. Right.

[B]

You had to ask. You had to get a loan of over a million dollars. Right. To be able to own it.

[A]

Yes. So there was a partner involved. And it was complicated because I had started this one Lucky Duck brand, which is why I have the duck tattoo that was the logo. And that really was the. The part of the business that you. That had the potential to expand. I mean, we sold for a while. We were selling our cute one Lucky Duck packaged products in over 30 whole food stores. And it was growing. And we had an e commerce business. And that was the part of the business that you could. That you could really expand in a big way. And I had all these people coming to me, and I was very aware, I think, because I'd worked in private equity and I had that background, I knew what happens sometimes when that type of money comes in, especially with brands that have a lot of personality and really rely heavily on integrity and the sort of all the things that make it a unique and special brand.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then if this certain type of money comes in and they expand it too quickly. And so I was very wary of. Of that. And. But yeah, I had to buy out this other partner. And so I took on a bunch of debt to do that. So I was carrying a lot of debt, both professionally and personally still. And restaurants are a huge amount of work. And so on top of the restaurant, which was open seven days a week, we had the product line and the E Commerce business. And then I was sort of the face of the whole thing. So I'm having to do interviews and represent the brand, and. And it was a lot. And then on top of that, I now I realize the source of an extra layer of exhaustion, I think, was just going through that kind of a life. You Know what they call masking, which women who get a diagno diagnosis of autism are much better at masking than men. So that's why typically men will get that diagnosis easier or they show it somehow easier. But women, we're good at, you know, looking like we're fine and everything's. Everything's fine. Yeah. Whereas I was really struggling just being. Just getting really, really burned out and really longing for the perfect partner or somebody that I could trust. I also had a bit of a near miss there, where I almost partnered up with the wrong people who would have taken control of the brand. And so I really was looking for. I really just wanted the right partner. And that. That was the main vulnerability where he found that when that guy, Anthony Strange, sort of slid into my dms, which

[B]

is exactly what he did, by the way. Before we go to him, you also had somewhat of a relationship with Alec Baldwin. Do you mind talking about that?

[A]

Yeah, he and I had become friends. I was. I'd been in a relationship with a much younger guy that was a really healthy, lovely relationship, but I knew that it was going to end because he was 14, 13 or 14 years younger than me. Good for you, by the way. Yeah, it's. It's a dynamic that works. I don't know, but he was really, really lovely. And that was the first time in my life that I was heartbroken. But at some point, Alec had come into the restaurant and we became friends, and I hung out with him, spent a little time at his house in the Hamptons, but I wasn't, for one reason or another, like, that wasn't going to be a relationship, and I was still dealing with my boyfriend in my mind.

[B]

In your story, he plays a couple of roles, right? He plays the what if. Right. What if you had actually found a partner who was there to support you and who, you know, who you could love and who was not a psychotic abuser. And also because he actually. Yeah, you're about to tell that story how he actually was. It was because of him that you ended up meeting. Not his fault, but because of him, that you ended up meeting your abuser. Right.

[A]

And there was a bit of. Because he followed this guy on Twitter. I somehow thought that. I didn't really think about it too hard, but I just. That gave this guy. In my book, I call him Mr. Fox because he originally told me his name was Shane Fox. And so I just somehow thought that Alec knew him. And I never asked, but I think really, Alec joined Twitter late and didn't

[B]

know how it worked.

[A]

So he was talking to everybody on Twitter, right? And this guy who I call Mr. Fox could be very, very funny and very witty, and I think. So Alec and this guy had this banter going back and forth. And so Alec followed him. And then when Alec joined Twitter, and then I was. That's kind of where I saw him is on Alec's timeline. So Alec and I would tweet back and forth. Sometimes that guy started tweeting with me, and now it's called X, but I'll forever call it Twitter. And so then he and I started talking, and then we direct messaging, and that's how I met him. And then by that time, Alec had met Ellaria at my restaurant, which is so strange. He had come there one night. He messaged me. I wasn't there. I tell this whole story in my book. He messaged me. You know, he's like, I'm at your restaurant. And I. I wasn't there. And so he sat out front by himself, I guess. And then, you know, a few tables down, sees this attractive brunette and meets her, and that's Ellaria. And then, you know, now they're married with a bajillion kids. But I think down the road, there was this. I think people like to think of, you know, things being destined or whatnot. And I also got my dog because of Alec, which in a weird way, because I was trying to convince Alec to get a dog. And he was sort of interested, but not really. And I just thought, you know, he's got this big house in the Hamptons, and he should have a. He should get a rescue dog. And I had no intention of getting a dog. I was super busy. Like, to add a dog into my life would have seemed crazy, but I stumbled upon this dog, and I. I got a bit obsessed with. With this particular dog, and I sent it to Alec, and I was like, you have to get this dog.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Something about this dog. You need to get this dog. And he wasn't going to. And then I just got strangely fixated on this dog and had to get. It was the first time in my life where I felt like something. It felt like a force beyond me was like.

[B]

Like there was a connection.

[A]

I have no choice. I have to go get this dog. And I went to see him, and so I got the dog, and his name's Leon, right? Leon. Yes, Leon, after the professional.

[B]

Oh, no way.

[A]

That's my favorite movie. That's great. Yeah. With the French actor Jean Reno. Jean Reno.

[B]

And Leon is a pitbull, correct?

[A]

Yes. Yeah. He was a bit of a pit bull mix, but, yeah, he was a pitbull.

[B]

And he features prominently in your story,

[A]

as we will know in a bit.

[B]

Yes. So you start tweeting back and forth with this guy. He seems funny. There's sort of a stamp of approval.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

In your mind that this guy and Alec are probably friends. And so this guy has to be. Be a normal human being at the very least. And then at one. And then it was the DMs and the conversation between the two of you start getting romantic before you ever met him in person.

[A]

Yes. And this is where I always caution people, is that, you know, I think he did it deliberately. He wasn't in New York, so he lived in Massachusetts, but I think he deliberately strung me along and sort of did what he does, saying all the right things, getting me hooked in the ways that these people, you know, whatever they do that they're getting people hooked. And I know it's very common now, these sort of like, romance scams when it's maybe not even a real person. And so he did that very strategically.

[B]

So the love bombing.

[A]

Yes. And I. And I. I think in my case, I call it like validation bombing. You know, I had written very openly, I'd written these blog posts about what I was going through. For some reason, I've always been very. That's another, like a bit of a autistic, you know, autism thing is like you have a tendency to overshare. And so I would overshare online. So he. He didn't even need to do all of that data mining. It's like I'd laid it out for him. Here's all my insecurities, vulnerabilities, my hopes and dreams. And so he knew the right things to say.

[B]

Wow. And he really studied you before he.

[A]

Oh, of course, yes. They always do that. And so he knew. Exactly. I mean, it's exactly like everything I went through precisely fits the profile of what cult leaders do and how they pull people into cults, like, every step of the way. So I'm very close to a lot of people that were in cults and, you know, are now on the other side of it speaking out. You know, we understand each other very well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah, so he knew exactly what to say, and he really validated that, you know, that my business and what I was trying to do and, you know, wanting to help the world eat healthier and all of my, you know, he made me feel important and like my work and my goals were really important. And so there's a lot of that validation bombing. And I was lonely. You know, I recently split with that younger guy. And so, you know, I was sort of lonely. And here's this guy that presents as this very mysterious, worldly, sophisticated, funny guy that seemed like he was also, you know, friendly with Alec or whatnot, and. Yeah, and I was very flattered by it. Yeah, right.

[B]

And who believed in your mission and what you were trying to achieve, and who also presented himself as very wealthy and somebody who could help you achieve those goals.

[A]

Right. Yeah. And it wasn't that. It wasn't just like, oh, here's this wealthy guy who's going to invest money. It was. It was a lot more than that, because, as you know, it's like, New York is full of people like that. And. But he seemed to understand me, which is what feels so important to so many people, is when you feel like somebody understands you, that can create a really. That can create a tether that can be dangerous.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they do that intentionally. So. He was very strategic in doing that so that I was already emotionally invested and sort of hooked by the time I met him in person. Because when I met him in person, it was like, oh, he doesn't look like I thought he did in his pictures. And I did get a funny vibe. And after that first time I met him in person, I thought, like, well, I guess, you know, I guess that's. I probably. I won't see him again. That seems sort of weird. But then what happens is, you know, he leaves. And then again, very funny, very charming, and would sort of suck me back in. So it happened a few times down the road where I would sort of think I was gonna, like, this is it. I'm done with this guy. I don't really understand him. And I don't know what's going on here, but it's. I'm not really that into him. I'm not comfortable with this, but he would find a way to kind of hoover me back in.

[B]

You were never really attracted to him physically, right?

[A]

No, I mean, I was early on. And before.

[B]

Before you met him?

[A]

Before I met him.

[B]

Cause he looks good in those photos.

[A]

It's a big shock. He does. And when I first met him, he wasn't. He was nothing. Over the course of my knowing him, when I first met him, he just looked like. And I always feel bad because I don't. You know, it's like, I understand people struggle with their weight. I've struggled with my weight in the past. Like, it's a thing but so I don't like fat shame anybody. But he was not that heavy when I met him. He, and he had this whole story that he'd been like injured and was recovering and, you know, and I'm, who am I to judge somebody? You know, I'm not the type of person that would, you know.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Judge somebody. And so he, he looked a bit like a, like those football players who play defense that are, have some extra padding. But over the course, over the years that I was in this, you know, situation with him, he gained an enormous amount of weight. And that in itself was part, he presented it as if it was all part of this test he was putting me through. But yeah, he got bigger and bigger and bigger and by the end he was like massive.

[B]

He called it his meat suit.

[A]

Yes, yes. Which was something say, like, I have to walk around to this meat suit because of you. And as if he was putting himself through all of this stuff somehow. For me.

[B]

Yeah, let's, it's so the story is so crazy. Let's rewind a little bit. And when you met him, what did he present himself as? What did he say he did?

[A]

So he was always very mysterious about what he did and I would never get a straight answer to any question and things were always implied. And I think that this is often done very deliberately so that he would leave me to sort of connect all these dots and also I would always be sort of confused about precisely what he did. And then later he said he, he'd

[B]

been in the military. Right. Which where he implied but didn't say or. Oh no, in the CIA. Sorry, you tell me.

[A]

Yeah, I know it's, it's confusing because it was always changing, but. Yeah, like these sort of, you know, under the radar military, private military companies. Exactly. And you know, I know they exist.

[B]

They do, yeah.

[A]

Right. So why, why wouldn't he. But of course, in these stories it's very common for them to say that they do some sort of a clandestine work so that you can't ever verify it. You know, you can't verify it and you, it's be very hard to disprove. Like how could I prove that he was lying about that? Who am I going to. Yeah, where it's not like on his LinkedIn profile.

[B]

Right. If he had actually been in the military, he could have been easily researched and looked at, but in this case he wasn't because he was doing clandestine work around the world.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So there was no way to actually fact check and see if he was telling you the truth or not. And he also presented himself again as rich, as a person who traveled all around the world, as a person who was important and needed and was doing good work. Right.

[A]

Yeah, He. You know, there was this line in the book, which I remember because Lola. I did Lola and Megan's Trust Me podcast.

[B]

Yeah. I interviewed both of them. They're so great.

[A]

And Lola had recited this line from my book where he said he would say to me, you know, it's because of people like me that people like you can sleep at night, you know? And he would leave for these stretches of time and say he was going to be off comms, as if he was off on some mission, when really he was, like, down at the casino in Connecticut.

[B]

I think that's actually a line for. Isn't that a line from, like, A Few Good Men?

[A]

I'm sure it is. Yeah, I'm sure. Now, I also describe in my book how at one point it dawned on me later on that this whole narrative that he had put forth that he has this mysterious brother, and they're sort of, like, fighting for power, and all of a sudden I realized that's like the plot of Thor, the Marvel movie. Yes.

[B]

Where he actually has. He's a good brother and he has a bad brother. Right. And there's evil force and the good force.

[A]

Yes. And he was weirdly obsessed with Chris Hemsworth a little bit.

[B]

The actor that plays Thor.

[A]

Yeah. One of the things that I don't know the answer to, but I find sort of fascinating is to what extent did he believe some of his own. You know what I mean? Like, was he also sort of deranged? Deranged and living in this delusion that he believed some of the things he said?

[B]

What do you think?

[A]

I don't really know. I sometimes feel like he must have to some degree.

[B]

Do you think that's giving him a pass, though? Can he just be a narcissistic asshole? Well, because what he did to you is pretty horrific.

[A]

Yes. And it wouldn't be to give him a pass at all. It's just that, I mean, I think, you know, there's. I find the whole world of, you know, sociopaths versus malignant narcissists. Like, sociopaths and malignant narcissists, their behavior, the effect is very much the same. But I think there's some subtle differences. Where a malignant narcissist is that way, where there's a. An incredibly, incredibly deep, deep, deep insecurity that's so deep that it's flipped around and they. But, but you could still provoke them. Whereas a pure sociopath, like, they're not provocable because they just don't care. Like they have no insecurities whatsoever. But both, you know, will behave, you know, without empathy and will destroy people. But there's slight difference there. I don't know. That's how I see it. But I, I find all of that sort of fascinating. And then.

[B]

And wait, from those two diagnoses, is one more prone to believe their own bullshit than. Than the other?

[A]

I think, yes. I would imagine the malignant narcissist is more prone to believe their stuff because they've created this fantasy to mask all of that deep insecurity. Yeah. So I think that they might be more prone to believing it.

[B]

Are these all. That's so interesting that you've, You've. Are these all things that you've studied after all of this happened to you because you were trying to.

[A]

I've studied it. And then also just distinguishing between, you know, Matthew Kenney, who was the guy that I opened the restaurant with.

[B]

The chef. The first chef.

[A]

Yeah. I believe lacks empathy and is a certain type of personality. But part of how these people have power and are able to do what they do is that most of us aren't. You know, we don't go to school and learn. Oh, by the way, there are these really dark personalities out there. And whether it's 4% or 7% or 12% of the population, you know, how do we even know. You don't. You don't take a class and learn that these people are out there, and here's how you spot them, and here's how you defend yourself.

[B]

Not at all.

[A]

So unless people know, you know, again, very often people, they will tend to believe somebody or not see it coming that they're being conned, because you can't fathom that somebody would be that diabolical.

[B]

It's interesting that you talk about stats, because I actually was looking into this yesterday because I have by now had several guests on the podcast with stories about this about sort of coercive abuse that I read about this yesterday. A recent study found that about one in five people, so 20% of the population have experienced coercive control in a relationship, and 14% said that they are currently trapped in one. So this actually happens, I mean, to different degrees, obviously, but much more often than we know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That we're aware of.

[A]

Yeah, it happens a lot. I. And, and, and I think it's more common that it's men doing it to women, but it happens the other way around too. Sort of. Like, should I say this? I think Alec is in a. Trapped in a. Yeah. And I think if you look at what's out there, it's pretty easy to make the case that he's. He's stuck in a situation that's not very healthy. Yeah.

[B]

Do you know her? Do you know Eladia?

[A]

No, I met her once and I. She really clearly hates my guts. That was very clear when I met her. But, yeah, I mean, if anybody looks into it, like, she. The whole thing about pretend, you know, perpetuating this Persona that she was from Spain and has an accent and is Hilaria from Spain when really she's Hillary from Boston. Like, who does that?

[B]

Right. And people who grew up with her and know her since she was young know that she was always Hillary from Boston.

[A]

Right. And so that. And then combined with a lot of other publicly available information that's out there, it just seems like. Who does that? I don't. You know.

[B]

Yeah. I wonder how much of it is sort of to mask her own insecurities. Right. For whatever reason.

[A]

I don't know. I just think that I. Once you've been through it and you start studying it, then you start to recognize it more easily, whether it's. You recognize it in public relationships that you see online or, you know, they did a whole reality show. So there's a lot of. It is in that. Or just meeting. You know, maybe you go to dinner and you meet another couple and suddenly you can just pick up on a lot of the things and realize that, like, oh, I think that this is a. In a controlling situation. But. Yeah, it is. It's sadly.

[B]

Yeah, it is interesting. There's sort of a fine line. Right. Between the need or the. The importance of unmasking situations like that. Right. Because it's not. We don't live in a healthy society of 20% of people have gone through this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But.

[A]

But.

[B]

But also making sure that you're not judging somebody unfairly.

[A]

Right. Yeah.

[B]

Or judging a relationship unfairly.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's a. There's a very fine line.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, like anything, it's good when people start to talk about, you know, narcissists and gaslighting, but then people accuse everybody of being a narcissist and gaslighting. And so. Yeah. But I mean, of course, it's really important for people to be. To be aware of it.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. Tell me, how did your relationship with Mr. Fox. Fox. Anthony Sturgis. How did strangest. Sorry. How did it sort of become as crazy as it become? I know it wasn't all of a sudden. It was an overnight.

[A]

Yeah, it happened over time. And usually people ask me about the first time he asked me for money and. And that's the way he did that is probably very common with con artists is they make it seem like they just need the money now. It's emergency. So. And, you know, and of course it pay me back and created a situation where, like, if I didn't give him the money, it would have been weird and cruel. And so I think that those people are really good at creating those types of situations. You know, it's like if somebody approached you on the street and they're like, oh my God, my wallet was stolen and I have to get back to my kids or something, and you think if they're not lying, you'd be an asshole not to help them out. But then even if you have a funny feeling about it, you're probably. You're just more likely to give them for sure what they're asking for.

[B]

It's a tactic that's employed very much by scammers, even the ones that you get on the phone. That's what they do. So. Well, the sense of urgency, if you don't do it now, you might lose everything, you know, well, you will win this prize, but you have to pay now in order to win. Right.

[A]

And in this case, it's like, you know, something bad will happen to him if I don't give him this money right now.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so I did. And then.

[B]

And the first amount was how much

[A]

I write in my book, because I don't remember. I have a lot more records from later on. And, you know, and early on, the money I gave him was usually cash, but I think it's like it was around 6 ish, 6 or $7,000. But then, you know, from there, he would sometimes give me little bits of money back, but it just got worse and worse and worse. And then, you know, as happened, is like, over time, he's getting more and more money out of me. And then he's getting. And it wasn't even, you know, it was my company. Like, at the time, I owned 100% of the equity. And so if I'm pulling money out, it's technically mine. But over time, then was hurting the business more and more. And then he was getting it through. Through me from other people, and he got my mother involved, which was very diabolical. Yeah. And that's very common. Too. I. I listened to your interview with Jan Broberg and one of the parts of that story that's so icky and chilling and I was. And I feel so. I don't know what the right word is, but the way her father was very open about how they were also manipulated in a really, really icky way. And that's very common. And I know what Anthony Strange did after he lived with some family in California and manipulated all of them.

[B]

After you.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

Yeah. There's a show called Toxic that episodes five and six are. Follow. Where is he now? And so it covers some what he. You know, this. He lived with this family during COVID and clearly manipulated every member probably in. In a different way. And that's very common is they. They compromise everybody so that everybody's compromised and therefore nobody's gonna sort of tell on him. And that. That's what that guy did so brilliantly, diabolically brilliantly in Jan Broberg's really horrible, horrible story is compromising.

[B]

Yeah. He got in a sexual relationship with both his mom and her mom and her dad.

[A]

Yes. And I felt. So just have so much respect for her father that he was open about that. Because most people don't want to talk about this stuff.

[B]

There's so much shame.

[A]

There's so much shame. And deliberately so. It's done in a way that you're going to feel so much shame that you're never going to want to talk about it.

[B]

Yeah. When he started asking you for more and more money at one point. Can you tell me about the part where it was. This wasn't just about getting money. These were tests. Right. Those. There was sort of another world out there. Yeah. Tell me about that. Like what? Yeah, that mind that he.

[A]

Yeah, it was. It was quite the mind. And it. It happened really gradually over time. And I think that's part of why my book is a lot of pages, because I recovered a lot of our G chats, which was sort of like messaging on the computer. People don't use it anymore for whatever reason.

[B]

Huge back then.

[A]

Yeah, it was big. So I have, you know, reams of G chats that I was able to recover. He deleted all our emails. I think he thought all of our gchats were deleted. And I was able to recover bits and pieces of our text, some emails here and there. But he tried to delete our entire digital history. And I remain forever grateful to Google that. I don't know, like, whatever the universe, that I was able to recover as much as I did because it really Helped me piece together what happened. But over time, it morphed into. And this is sort of very culty as they, you know, if you have any inclination to believe in anything sort of spiritual or mystical, they're going to weaponize that. And I think he weaponized those feelings that I'd had about adopting Leon, that I felt compelled, and I really did. I felt, and people say this a lot about their pets, is that they feel like, you know, they were sort of destined to come together. That's how it felt. And so he knew, because I'd written a very public blog post about my whole story about adopting Leon, he knew I felt that way. So he was like, I brought him to you. I sent you the dog. And, you know, and over time, what's happening is, you know, because of the stress and the elements of fear that he brought in, he made it seem like whatever work he was doing, now I'm in danger too, but I don't even know what it is. So I'm just like, my nervous system is more and more fried because I'm afraid, but I don't even know precisely what I'm afraid of. And so over time, it morphed into this bizarre sort of dark, fantastical thing where he's, you know, I'm the chosen one, which, again, is very common.

[B]

Very common.

[A]

They make you feel like you were chosen and that you're special. And he would say that I'm, you know, I'm meant to change the world with my company and my brand. And as much as I feel like it could be important and useful to the world, he's like, you don't even know how important it. Like, you. It's so important. It's everything. Like, I have to protect you and keep you safe from the people that are trying to derail you. And there had been people who I felt had tried to derail me. So I don't know, you know, again, I would veer on the side of going along with it. But it was. I always felt like I had one foot in his reality and one foot out and never really knowing what was going on. And again, put in a situation where I can't. I could never disprove what he was telling me. And also, I was more and more compromised. So, like, the person who, you know, the very simple example is somebody who's gambling and they're losing more and more money, and now they've maybe they've gambled away their, you know, kids college fund, and they're so mortified that they feel like, okay, but I could get it back if I just keep going. But in this situation, there's somebody telling you, like, oh, no, no, you'll get it all back and then some. And, you know, you're going to be empowered and you'll never have to grovel to anybody for money and put up with, you know, you can run the business and grow it how you want. And so he really played that up.

[B]

Yeah. I brought up. There's this thing that you actually say in the Netflix series, which I know I don't. You don't. Shouldn't be promoting it too much because I know it brought about a lot of unfair blowback, in my opinion, towards you. I think the way it was put together, particularly the end, was very, very unfair. But I come from a documentary background, so I sort of knew that that wasn't a conversation that you had openly, and I knew exactly how it was done. But I do think there was some manipulation there that was very unfair, and I. We will talk about that. But there was something you said in that. That doc where you say that to admit to yourself that he was lying to you after you'd given him so much money would be to accept the loss in a way which is something that, again, is, like you said, is common with gamblers, but is also very common with scam victims and cult victims like you. It's. It's this. Yeah. It's this idea that at this point, you've. You've just given so much of yourself that. Yeah. You. You just want that. That reality to be true. Because if it's not, the. The actual reality is horrible. This means that you almost. You have.

[A]

Yeah, right. It's like you destroyed your life for what? Because this guy is a sadistic lunatic.

[B]

Yeah. He talks a lot about the happily ever after. What was in your mind? What was that? What was the happily ever after in my mind?

[A]

And as he presented it, like, I would be able to grow my business and, you know, expand and help change the world and help animals and the environment and all of that unencumbered by, you know, old debts or having to put up with. I mean, he knew I. I'd been through a lot of situations with particularly men very often who would say, oh, I want to invest in your business and be your partner, but they really ended up being slimy jerks. And. And then you're in that situation where you kind of have to smile and put up with it. And so I just, you know, or people coming in and thinking they know how to run the business better. And I. I had that near miss where with some sort of very corporate people who wanted to come in and were a bit deceptive about it and would have taken the brand away from me and controlled it. And so he knew that I very much wanted to run the business the way that I wanted to and, you know, have my. My, you know, take care of my family. Like, it sounds like a cliche, but that business really was like a family. And I, you know, I never had children. I never wanted children. It felt like the business and the people in it, like, this was my family. This is what I'm meant to do. This is what I'm. I'm. This is what I was. This is my purpose in this lifetime. And he knew that. And so, you know, the happily ever after. And he knew that it wasn't about him. So part of his future fantasy that he presented was that. That he was then going to exit, that he would empower me, but then he would be out of the picture. And I was like, oh, perfect, this is great.

[B]

Because he knew that you weren't particularly in love with him.

[A]

Exactly. He knew that I was not attached to him. Yeah, that. Yeah. So, I mean, at this point, the happily ever after really was just about me being able to, you know, to grow and expand the business.

[B]

And which. The sad part about all this is that if he hadn't appeared in the picture, you might have been able to do that without. Without him, you know.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I mean, probably that's. That's the road. I mean, I was in that position where. And in fact, the business was doing really well sort of in the early part of when he was involved, where there was enough cash flow coming in from the business that I was in a pretty good position. I mean, I did expand to some degree on my own. I opened a production facility in Brooklyn, and, you know, we were expanding the E Commerce side of the business. So I was in a pretty good position to. If I could have, you know, stopped, taken a breather and found the right partner, the way to, you know, recapitalize and expand, I could have done that one way or the other.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what's so devastating about what he did to you. Yeah. And there was also sort of. He kept on referring to some sort of cosmic existence. Right. He would call you the little. What was it? Little human.

[A]

Oh, he called me the tiny blonde human and implying that he himself wasn't human. And, you know, I don't really know what to make of that. I mean, he. What's. What's weird is that I subsequently started. I started studying Kabbalah because I heard these reels and things that were repeating things that he had said to me. And I thought, wait, that sounds. That sounds familiar. That's, like, what he was telling me and just in different words. And when I started studying it, I was like. He was teaching me all of these things that are part of the teachings of Kabbalah, but not in that language. So he really positioned himself like a cult leader, like, as if he was my guru. And he's shepherding me through this process of, you know, like a sort of enlightenment, because he would say to me, once you wake up, you'll see. And he would say stuff to me like, none of this is real anyway. And, you know, later on in the story, there's a part where he takes me away, and he explained that we were sort of as if we were just going to slide into another timeline. And meanwhile, I'm getting more and more and more dissociated. So basically, he just pulled me into this very hazy world of not knowing what's real and ramping up the level of fear. So I was constantly in a state of fear. Constantly feel like I was feeling like I was being watched. Like this mysterious brother of his or some weird counsel was watching me at all times and just put me in a constant state of fear. And so I just, you know, my reasoning basically detached in a way.

[B]

There was a point where you didn't even recognize yourself, right. That you talk about at one point, sort of that. Dissociation. Disassociation, yeah. And not even recognizing who you were or what you were doing in a way. Right?

[A]

Yeah, It's. It's really. It's difficult to talk about because you're. You're trying to remember something that, you know, being in a dissociated state, you're not all there. So you're functional. You know, you can go to the grocery store and you can interact with people, but it's like you're not all there. And I find all of that stuff really fascinating, too. But I can see there were certain points of the story where the level of destruction, every time it ramped up, I would sort of click into this next level of dissociation. And oddly enough, like, this happens a lot. They. They film a lot of stuff which ends up being incriminating against them later on. And. And Mr. Fox did that, too. He filmed me on his iPhone in these ways that perhaps he was building a case that I Was unstable, and I'm a. Emotionally a wreck or something. And he was taking. I don't know what. But basically he filmed me in moments where I was breaking down and losing my. Which I only discovered much later, but was able to recover that and give it to the filmmakers for. And they used some of it.

[B]

Yeah, they did, yeah. And it's you. It's. When you're a fugitive at this point and you're at your worst of your worst, and you're begging for sort of help and trying to get out of this, and we will get there in a second.

[A]

Second.

[B]

But what he did, I mean, he started by asking for money and then eventually, you know, talking about this other reality and all that. And eventually, like you said, he started positioning himself in a situation where he didn't actually need to ask you for money. He was taking money directly from the business. And in order to be able to do so and have more control over the cash flow, he would send you on these trips. And you went. He sent you to Italy by yourself. He told you that you had to go. It was a mission. It was sort of a teacher test that you had to pass so that he could be more in control of the restaurant. Right?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I'll never know exactly what he was doing because it's one of those situations where people would say, well, why did he send you to Italy? Like, I don't know. We ask him, you know, I only know, you know, what happened. And then sometimes I'm able to figure some things out after the fact. But he was always sending me. I think his goal was to keep me away from the restaurant as much as possible. And, yeah, during that trip, I did find out later that he went and spoke to the staff and was sort of positioning himself to take control more and more.

[B]

He was saying that he was gonna. He was gonna boat by the restaurant, and he was now sort of the boss, kind of.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A couple of things are interesting that you had at least two people that sort of corroborated his story or who he said he was. Right. Which was his dad.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Tell me about that. And who. Who did you find out his dad was? Because you met him face to face.

[A]

Yes. So his dad was a cop in Brockton, Massachusetts, and I believe was probably like a crooked cop, you know, because for his dad to have validated his story, I think.

[B]

And I think.

[A]

I think I heard you say this in another podcast, that there's a surprising number of con artists where the. It's sort of like a mother And a father or father and son team, it kind of makes sense that, you know, genetically they pass that along. So the first time I met his father, he was, you know, in various ways, just sort of corroborating who Mr. Fox was

[B]

and that he is sort of this international man of mystery that's doing really important work to save the world, kind of.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And his father was, you know, also very charming. Was making goofy jokes. And I talk about that too, because Mr. Fox was like, he could be very funny and very goofy. And it's. It almost creates a certain type of cognitive dissonance where how could somebody be so diabolically cruel, but making funny jokes and being not like cruel jokes, like being funny and goofy and sort of making you laugh and everything to him seemed like no big deal. I think that that's why people who have this type of psychology can get away with huge, bold lies, like pretending they are somebody they're not, you know, on a world stage, is because whatever it is in them, that also allows people like that to pass a lie detector test, because they're not. They're not nervous, they're not anxious, so they could pass a lie detector test. And that's probably in all the ways that we subconsciously perceive that somebody might be lying that we're not even aware of. But it's probably little things, since they're not doing that. Our internal lie detector test is like, oh, well, I guess this person is telling the truth because they don't have any of those funny little tics that people normally do when they're lying. And they seem so confident and. And they seem so relaxed. And so he was like that all the time in all these situations with other people, and always seemed like he had everything under control and everything's.

[B]

Because. So one of the things that you found out eventually was that all the money, all his time away, that he was spending most of it at casinos, so he was a gambling addict and would spend millions and had spent millions and millions of dollars at casinos, and so had his dad. He grew up in a household where his dad lost all his money or would use all his money.

[A]

I would imagine his dad had a similar psychology. And I don't.

[B]

I'm care.

[A]

I don't. I deliberately. I always point out that I wouldn't consider him a gambling addict because I feel like the word addict implies a lack of control. And generally somebody who's an addict deserves sympathy. Like there's something going on that they don't want it to be happening, and they probably feel shame about it. You know, like if you're an addiction.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You don't want to be doing it. You feel shame about it. You wish you could stop, but you can't.

[B]

No, it's a pass. Like it's, it's too much of a nice word for what he was.

[A]

Right. And. But I've. In all my research and studying these types of people, it's very common that it's not that he was an addict, but they have this thing where they need. They need a level of stimulation. That's why they like to live on the edge. They like the danger. They will deliberately put themselves in very high risk situations because they, I think they sort of get off on it. So even when we were sometimes on the road or there wasn't a lot like he, he would be sitting there playing Call of Duty or something like that. They need that kind of stimulation. Maybe there's a sort of a fear of getting incarcerated because it would be an inconvenience. Or like that would, that would suck. That would. But they don't have that fear of getting caught. It's. It's more like a, A game to them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think that what he did with money and gambling was a bit like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But there, there was. I still. There was something going on where it was insane. The amount that I witnessed him winning at slots, where people don't win that often.

[B]

Yeah. Because he wasn't just losing, he was actually winning some money as well. I mean, he was losing probably more than he was winning, but he would go to slot machines and repeatedly won. Right, right. I wonder. Yeah, I wonder what it, what do you think it was? Do you think he was. There was some sort of cheating involved or what was.

[A]

I don't think you can cheat. I don't really know. I mean, the best rational guess is that he was just feeding in so much money that inevitably he's going to win. And he's sort of feeding in more than anybody realizes. So even people around would be like, that guy, he's always winning. What.

[B]

Right.

[A]

What sort of magic touch does he have? So he's acting as if he had some sort of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Super power.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. Years later, I did come across like some $20 million tax warrant against him. And from everything I could figure out the. Only that most of that was from gambling. And so again, somebody like a normal person, if somebody gambles a lot, they're going to book all their losses and they're going to, they're gonna subtract their Losses against their wins so that they don't owe all the taxes on the wins. But somebody like him, they just don't care. So somewhere in the registers of all the casinos, it looks like he's won a huge amount of money, but the losses aren't booked.

[B]

So he owes the government $20 million. Is that what you found?

[A]

That's what I. According to what I saw.

[B]

All the money he was getting from you was essentially going into gambling, correct?

[A]

As far as I know, yeah. Or. Or, you know, stupid hotel bills and all this crap.

[B]

Watches.

[A]

He was buying and selling watches. That's a scam. He continued after me. He scammed some guy who was an actor in LA out of a. To do with a Rolex transaction. So that's.

[B]

Yeah. What is he? I was going to keep the. Keep this question to the end, but I'm afraid I'm going to forget it. Then what is he. Where is he now? I cannot believe that he's not spending

[A]

Everybody sounds like a year in Christmas. And that's what's. That's. Yeah, he spent a year because nobody. He didn't get out on bail. I did. So while my case was going through the system, I was out on bail, he wasn't. I was then sentenced to four months, so I had to go in and serve that time. Meanwhile, he was released before I went in. And that's, you know, it's a whole other story. But people are. People could never understand why was I even talking to him after everything happened. And as a lot of people who've been targets of something like this or have been in a very abusive relationship, know very often it's safer to allow that person to think that they might have a hold on you. And in my case, I was terrified, absolutely petrified that while I was in jail, he was going to go take Leon, because if his goal was to destroy me, which it seemed like that was the goal, I mean, it wasn't about the money because he flushed it all away.

[B]

Then he knew exactly what your weak spot was.

[A]

Yes. Like he had destroyed me financially, emotionally, psychologically, my business. Burn bridges, everything. If he really wanted to, you know, yeah, he. He could have easily gone and hurt Leon while I was locked up. And so that's what I was terrified of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that was part of the reason why I was in touch with him.

[B]

Right. Yeah. I want to get there. Sort of your time in prison and also the victimization of victims, which I think is so awful and happens so. Is so common. So he was doing all this and then there's a. So there was his dad who backed his story. And then there's this another character called Will.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Which was supposedly his assistant, but wasn't.

[A]

Didn't. Will didn't exist, but who actually didn't

[B]

exist, but it was him pretending. He would email you.

[A]

Pretending to be Will was like a Gmail account.

[B]

Right. And Will. But you believed for some time that Will was real early on. Yeah, early on. And Will would say, I know it seems strange, and validate his story, but he's really doing important work and all this stuff.

[A]

But later on, I know there are so many times where I. I wanted proof that Will existed, and I never got it. I never got it that later on in my book, I put places where I'm saying to Mr. Fox, you know, if, like, I'm making these really crude jokes that. About Will not existing. And. And. And he's almost kind of acknowledging that Will doesn't really exist by that time. By that point, it was, you know, sort of too far into it. But he. He'd set up the situation in such a way that any lie and anything he was doing that was deceptive, he would just conveniently fold into the story of, like, yeah, this is all part of the test. You know, just like, he was getting fatter and fatter, and I'm supposed to hate him and I'm supposed to doubt him, and I just have to keep hanging on and pass this thing. And they think you're going to fail, but I know you're strong and I know you're going to make it through this. And. But you had asked about where he is now. So there's a show on Discovery, hbo, Max, called Toxic, and each episode focuses on a different story, but episodes five and six are about him. And I originally didn't want to participate, but I did because I realized she was going to try and track him down. And if that means he might be further exposed or held accountable, then, like, I'll help. So they track him down, and the host of the show, Elizabeth Chambers, they finally track them down in. I think it's Arizona.

[B]

Elizabeth. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And she confronts him, and it's this crazy scene because she's, like, tiny, and she's running after him, and he's, like, huge and massive, and she's trying to get him to speak, and he's yelling at her and. But, yeah. So, I mean, what does he say? He doesn't say anything. He's basically saying to her, like, get the. Away from me. And. And then hilariously, he says, I'll call the cops if you don't leave. You're trespassing. Like, yeah, great, call the cops, please.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But these people have a way of covering their tracks, as he did with me. Because the company was in my name. I was responsible, so of course I'm gonna get blamed. And my situation went through the criminal justice system at a time, you know, it was. Now there's so much more conversation about psychological abuse, coercive control, narcissists.

[B]

Not enough back then.

[A]

Like the me too hadn't even happened. Like, none of it existed back then. And so the judge seemed to understand. He said at my sentencing, and it really meant a lot to me. He said, it seems clear you tried to run your business in good faith. And, you know, so there was some acknowledgment on his part that. That just meant a lot to me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That I tried to run my business in good faith. Just all this crazy stuff happened that nobody understands. Prosecutor, another story. She hated my guts. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, that's her job, too.

[A]

No, but what she did was not her job. I think that there was a lot of. I would say, across the board, there are certain careers where people who you might label sociopaths end up in higher than average. So heart surgeons, psychologists, criminal justice, anything where there's a lot of power over other people's lives, they end up in higher than average in those positions. And then things that involve high risk, like maybe high stakes traders or law enforcement. Law enforcement, CEOs, anything where they have power over other people's lives. And so I think that unfortunately, a lot end up in prosecution, because if you look at how many cases there are out there of people who are wrongfully accused. Yeah. Because of manipulation. Right. And they can force, you know, I know you spoke to Amanda Knox. They can force a confession. But even in cases where, like, there's clear evidence that this is not the person who did the thing, but they just. They don't care. Like, that blows my mind.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think, unfortunately, that makes me really revere good prosecutors.

[B]

Yeah. It's funny because you talk about prosecutors and you just spoke about Amanda Knox. When I was reading about your case, you were treated in the press very similarly to the way that Amanda Knox was treated in such a. The facts didn't really matter. As long as you created this, the facts no matter.

[A]

I mean, her. Her case was devastating because, you know, she spent four years at a very young age in that Italian prison. Prison. But. But, yeah, the facts don't matter. Like, they they, the. The tabloids jumped on this narrative. False narrative, that I had been arrested because of a pizza. Yeah. And I didn't know anything about the pizza. And the detectives who arrested me were so kind and they kept saying to the press, like, she didn't know about the pizza. She was in a different room. She didn't have anything to do with the pizza.

[B]

So basically, so just so people understand, the idea was that they were able to track you guys down, you and Anthony.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because he had ordered a pizza. And the whole thing that people really latched onto, or the press did, was the idea that here's a vegan. And I guess that's partly where also the name Bad Vegan came. Right. Here's a vegan who is so hypocritical.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That not only did she steal from people, but then in the end, the way she was tracked down was because she ordered a pizza to a room. But in fact, you did. It wasn't you. You were in a separate room.

[A]

Right. I didn't even know about the pizza.

[B]

About the pizza.

[A]

You know. But they found out.

[B]

Let this story go. Because it's. For them, it's such a symbol. Yeah. Of the hypocrisy and that.

[A]

I mean. Yeah. Like, that wasn't very consequential. It's not like the pizza is what led to my prosecution.

[B]

It's these.

[A]

But it's gross, right?

[B]

It is. Because we are the press. Right. Journalists are supposed to at least get facts straight and particularly if they're like headlines about you and this can actually have an impact in your life.

[A]

This is where Bad Vegan was sort of a version of that. Like, they could have told the accurate story and they could have told a useful story and explained how this happens and psychological abuse. And how does this happen to somebody who's reasonably intelligent and therefore help a lot of people? But instead, you know, it'll be much more entertaining if we do it this way. And they left out, you know, there's a whole really disgusting sexual abuse component of it, which is also very common in these kinds of stories. They left that out because of. Had they included it. You know, what the director, Chris Smith did is by what he included and didn't include. And then he even moved my words around in a phone call. In the end, not just putting the phone call out of context, but then taking a reply from over here and replacing what I said, I said here, which was kind of the opposite. It's like if.

[B]

No, it's irresponsible. Right. I mean, Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of editing that happens in documentary filmmaking. Right, right.

[A]

You know, there's editing that's kind of necessary maybe to condense something. But this is like, you know, where I said yes and then he finds somewhere else where I say no and replaces the yes with a no.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so it made me look bad. And I think what he wanted to do very cleverly, is create something where half the people watch it and depending on their own life experiences, will watch it through a certain lens and half the people will be sympathetic because they've been through something similar.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Ever. Anybody that's in the documentary world also sort of sees what was done or if somebody has never been through anything like that, they don't. They're kind of judgmental. Maybe they're, you know, on their iPhone, they're not even paying that close attention. Will watch it and get to the end and think it's like this twist and she was in on it all along and she's a criminal.

[B]

It's a much better story. Right. If you don't know at the end, you don't actually know who's.

[A]

It makes for a lot more controversy and people arguing over it and therefore views.

[B]

It was the serial success, popularity of it.

[A]

All.

[B]

Right. Remember the serial, the podcast about Adnan said. And it was about whether a lot. I remember all my friends were. We were all talking about whether he was guilty or not. And it was, it just, it was, you know, the perfect story plot for us to be talking about it and promoting the show.

[A]

And I think there's a documentary, I think it was called the Jinx. And Robert Durst at the end is caught on a hot mic.

[B]

That is an incredible.

[A]

And so I think that that was such a sensation that the director was thinking making it look like some version of that, because the way that they aired this phone call at the end where I had deliberately, you know, not miked myself up, but I used an app on a phone that Chris had told me about to record the call. And so I'm purposely like playing a role to try to get Anthony to say stuff.

[B]

So just, just to explain. So you're, you're, you've agreed to do this documentary with a very well known documentary filmmaker called Chris Smith. And in you, you tell him you're going to share your story. You do an exclusive. You're just going to. It's exclusive just with him. You give him all, everything you have, your diaries, your tapes, your photos, everything you own so that he could tell the Story in a informed way. And then he also asks you because he's trying to get a hold of Anthony stranges, Mr. Fox, but Anthony doesn't want to talk to him and refuses to talk to him. But he asks you if you could actually make some of these phone calls, call him so that they could record him and at least get his voice in the film. Right? Or.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And also, I mean, I think if people were paying really close attention to the, to, to the show. In the beginning, I'm on camera.

[B]

Yeah. Talking to him.

[A]

And then I even say, you know, we get, I get off the call and I say, like, I wouldn't. And I'm nervous. I was like drinking a beer. I say, you know, I would never record somebody without their knowing. But that motherfucker, like, fuck him. So I'm in the beginning. It's clear that I'm doing that in some small way to get back at him. Like I'm. There's a little bit of gratification in getting one over on him and getting him on tape. And so that other phone call that they played at the very end was, you know, more of, of that situation where I'm on the phone with him. I'm recording it. I know I'm recording it. So trying to get him to, to kind of. I'm just trying to keep the phone call lasting as long as I can. And I'm trying to get him to say maybe some of the weirder stuff that, you know, he wrote about in Gchats, but you know, some of the more kooky Looney Tunes stuff. And so I'm sort of trying to egg him on. And so they. But they positioned that phone call at the very end and they showed us sort of laughing, but they make it seem as if we're laughing about what happened. And then he says something like, I still think you're the most beautiful girl in the world and the smartest. And in reality, my response was sort of more self deprecating. And I said something about like, I didn't solve that puzzle you gave me or something. But Chris took audio from somewhere else in the call we're 20 minutes earlier where he had made a joke at my expense, which was actually kind of funny. And so I sort of laugh and I say, you know, it fucking pisses me off because you're right about the joke that he was making, which was making fun of me.

[B]

Oh, wow. So not about you being the most beautiful woman.

[A]

So Chris took that audio, moved it here.

[B]

Yeah, that's not Good.

[A]

So I'm saying it pisses me off because you're fucking right. Which then when I realized that he'd moved the audio, I was like, now it makes a little more sense to me why so many women have been. Were really cruel in their, you know, like sort of the nasty DMs and comments coming at me, calling me names. Because I come across like. I, like, I'm like, yeah, you're right. I'm. I'm all that and laughing.

[B]

Yeah. And yeah, a lot of the feedback you got, which I, like I said when I watched it, I came out of it thinking that absolutely you were a victim. But I do see how for a lot of people, that last conversation that you have with him, this is after you're out of prison and, you know, you've shown this man as a monster, and yet you're here you are laughing with him, laughing with him. And it's sort of showing no regard for the people that you hurt along the way. Right. The people that worked at your restaurant.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

The investors that you still owed money to, all the people that believed in you. And it was as if you didn't care about them, that you were still laughing about the situation. That's where I thought, yeah, there was a lack of sort of responsibility and care in the way that. That was edited.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, that's generous to me. It's diabolical. I think Chris is. I think Chris is also. Doesn't have empathy. I think he's one of those people. That's my opinion.

[B]

Did you reach out to him after saying that? How?

[A]

Oh, I trolled him. Like, I was. I mean, online. I was constantly.

[B]

Did he ever pick up the phone and talk to you?

[A]

Well, I never called him, but I called for him to sort of answer for it. And he did a couple of interviews where he would say, in a very sort of squirrely way, you know, well, I just wanted to present Da, da, da and, you know, let the audience come to their own conclusion, which is like.

[B]

But you're not presenting it is so obvious that you. To me, in my mind, and I mean, I think most people would agree with me that you are a victim. In this case, the idea that we're going to leave it up to the people to decide whether you.

[A]

But to decide based on incomplete information and incorrect, deliberately incorrect information. What's challenging for me about all of the vitriol that I would get from people and, you know, I don't. I couldn't. I wouldn't have time to engage with I didn't even. I couldn't read most of it because it was like a fire hose. But sometimes I would engage with people and say, like, the hard part is, I understand why you're judging me because you're judging me because you're outraged on behalf of the employees and people who are hurt, which. And my mother and which, you know, I feel enormous amounts of guilt and shame and. And blame over that. So the hard part is I can't even blame the people who are yelling at me based on what they saw. But what they saw was incomplete, wasn't accurate. You know, I wasn't laughing with him about everything that happened. I wasn't, you know, so. So that part is hard. But in many cases, occasionally I would say to these people, like, look, that call was out of context. Here's the real story. I wrote this thing on my website about it, and they'd come back to me and say, oh, my God. And they'd be really angry. Like, I can't believe, you know, the filmmakers and Netflix did that. And so, yeah, I mean, that was a drag. And the way the film was marketed to, even if you didn't watch it, just the title and the. The marketing of it and the way that they used my picture with Cash. And if you just saw it come up as an option on your Netflix or saw they had these billboards in la, you would think that I'm in the category of, like, the bad surgeon, or that I'm like, more like an Anna Delvey character, where I was the con artist. Like, that's what you think, right?

[B]

Bad vegan.

[A]

Right. So, yeah. So on the other side of it all, it's sometimes awkward for me when I would meet somebody and they find out, oh, you're the person that's in that bad vegan show. And then I could see, like, I don't know what they think. Right. So I don't know if they're thinking, oh, she's a con art, she's a bad person.

[B]

How much does this person know about me? Do they know the whole picture, or

[A]

do they just think I'm in a con artist or some, like, awkward interactions?

[B]

And this is with you forever. I mean, this is your life, too.

[A]

Yeah. It's definitely made it more challenging to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Try to recover.

[B]

Yeah. Just so our listeners can understand, he started. He sort of this thing grew and grew. He started taking you away from the business. At one point, you weren't able to pay. The people that were working with you were almost like part of your family. They started turning against you. There was walkouts. At one point, the restaurant had to close. And this is when you guys became fugitives. But it wasn't fugitives. Like, it wasn't. You didn't, you weren't fleeing because you thought that they. Explain to me what happened during that time.

[A]

Yeah. From your point of view. So the tabloid narrative made it seem as if I shot my employees. I didn't pay them, and then I ran off with a bunch of money when that's not what happened at all. You know, there was one time that the payroll didn't go through. I fixed it. I got everybody paid. You know, a whole lot of stuff happened. But when he took me away, sort of towards the end of the story, when he took me away at that moment, everybody had been paid. So when he takes me away, it's after I'm gone that then of course things fall apart because I'm not there and nobody knows where I am. And so the restaurant kind of falls apart. The payroll doesn't get made, and so they're subsequently owed money. So, yes, I'm, you know, I'm legally and otherwise responsible for that. But it happened after he took me away. And when he took me away, within a day or two, I was like, without my phone, without my computer access. And from that point on, didn't ever Google myself. I didn't go online. I didn't have access to my own phone number or my email. After that, he had access to my email. And one of the more gut wrenching things that I found on the other side of everything, when I finally had to. It took me a while to get back into my own Gmail because he had changed the password. And so I had to. Took me a while to get back in. And when I got back in, I discovered that he deleted all of our correspondence. But I was able to recover the gchats. But then I looked in the sent folder.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I saw all the emails he'd been writing people as me. And that was like, made me so mortified and queasy. I mean, he was emailing with Alec, he was emailing with my father.

[B]

Was he asking for money?

[A]

Yes, he was asking everybody for money. Trying to sound like me.

[B]

That's horrible.

[A]

It was really disgusting and so mortifying because I'm aware of how, you know, what am I going to do to say to all these people like, that wasn't me. And in some cases it's clear, in some cases the person receiving it would say, like, sure, maybe I can help you. But you need to call me. And then he would say, oh, and like, one excuse after another. So some people would reasonably suspicions. Yeah, yeah. And then he also had my phone for quite a while. And I mean, I never got that back. And over time, I mean, it happened years later sometimes where people would say, oh, yeah, I got text messages from you from back then. I'm like, oh, my God, that's awful.

[B]

Yeah, awful.

[A]

I mean, that. That part was kind of was really icky and. And gross. It was just sort of a. An icky humiliation. I mean, the worst part, of course, was that the business was destroyed and all these people and investors were hurt and that the. It wasn't so much. I mean, I know the employees who were out that money, who I got repaid through. When I agreed to do Bad Vegan, I wanted an amount that was equal to what they were owed, which was like a small amount of what was owed total. But I wanted that paid, so I got them paid. But beyond that, I didn't make anything from Bad Vegan. And I know the filmmakers made millions.

[B]

It was $85,000. Right, or something like that. $80,000 or something like 75. 75.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And you go, you know, immediately. Paid all.

[A]

Yes. It didn't even. It, like, went to an attorney's account and went and paid the employees. But the most devastating loss for them wasn't financial. It was losing because for them, yeah, it was. It was like their home. That was their family away from family. That was their. I mean, it meant so much to me that people loved working there and they loved being there, and they loved the place and even the customers. It was like a big loss for everybody. Yeah, that's the hardest part.

[B]

Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah. It's. Yeah. There is a part of it where. When you are in this state where he takes the phone away from you and the laptop and any form of communication with anyone at that point. What was your state of mind at that point? You can see him when he's filming you, where you're just sort of isolating yourself from the rest of the world, because it's almost like you. What's. What's waiting for you in the real world is so tragic and horrible. Right. It's the admission, for one, that he's not. None of this is real, and that he's been lying to you all this time that you've lost all this money, but also that you've hurt so many people. Having to come to terms with the fact that you've hurt so Many people that you truly loved.

[A]

Yeah. And it gets to the point where it's. You know, when he was. People have asked me a lot, you know, how did it feel when this. How did you feel? What was going through your mind when. X, Y, Z. And it's like when you're in a really dissociated state, it's. You're, like, not feeling things. You know what I mean? So it's difficult to talk about. And some of those video clips, when I saw them, it's like watching something that happened when you were on drugs or something, because I don't have a recollection of.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Of those specific instances in some cases. You know, or. It's very fuzzy.

[B]

Yeah. There's a chance that he was actually sending these to your mom to show that you were going through this sort of psychotic or mental break.

[A]

I don't. I mean, to my knowledge, he didn't ever send them. Yeah, but it's like, why would he have taken the. Why. Why is it that the only videos of me are when I'm. When I look extremely psychologically unwell?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, you're. You're crying, you're refusing to get out of the bathroom. You're. You're. Yeah. You're in a deep state of despair for what he's made you, for what he's. The position he's put you in, which is really hard to watch.

[A]

And it gets to the point where it's like, either either somehow what he's. This whole story works out and this all gets better, or like, that's it, game over. Like, my life is over. I mean, I. You know, there are a few moments here and there during the. I think it was about nine months that he had taken me away. You know, where sometimes it would occur to me, like, what do I do now? Like, what. Because I had no idea what. What we were doing. What if there was any plan or what was happening. And he took me away from Leon, too. But then at some point, he got Leon back, and so I sort of thought everything was going to be okay. He got Leon back for me, so at least I was. I had Leon with us. But as. Especially before that, when I thought, like, I don't know what I sort of. You know, I envisioned, like, maybe I'll just slide off the. You know, I'm like, I could kill myself. But, like, how. I don't. Like, how would I do that logistically? And that's dark and creepy and, like, maybe I could just slide off the radar and, like, Live in a, you know, truck stop somewhere and. Yeah, till I die.

[B]

Yeah. I think there's just so much ignorance around how psychological abuse can be so much more debilitating than physical or physical constraints, I guess, or psychological coercion, basically. I think that if you. If he had locked you up and put shackles around your feet and handcuffs or whatever, that you at least, you know, you're a prisoner and you spend the rest of your time trying to figure a way, a way to escape. Right. But when he's changed your whole reality and sense of self around you, like, you don't even realize that that's what's happening. Right.

[A]

Yeah. Or it's like a psychological entrapment. And he's created the story, and this is what cults do too, that if you betray him, if you go against him, it will be like doom will rain down upon you. And that's. That's very typical in cults too, that if you leave the cult or if you betray them somehow, that your life will be totally doomed. Right.

[B]

That the life on the outside is more dangerous than what you're going through right now. Right.

[A]

Yes. And they. And that he's the only person that can keep me safe, you know, even though he's the one who created all of the stuff that I, you know, he's the only one who can take away the pain. Meanwhile, he's the one who inflicted it all. But. Yeah, and I think unless somebody's been through that situation, they don't know. Really, really hard to understand that.

[B]

You say that it's hard to understand unless you've lived through it, but I actually think it's a. It's. It's sort of. It's more of the ignorance around it that leads to people not understanding. I think that once people start listening to stories like yours and Lola's and the Nixium victims, that you'll start understanding. You, You. You. You get a much better understanding of what. What it's like. Even. Even recently I interviewed Frank Mink, who was married to Alison Mack, who is the actress, and he mentioned her in the podcast and the amount of hate that was sent comments about her and how. And I have no doubt that she did horrible things, but she did them under false pretenses. Right. Her idea of the world, much like yours, was completely reversed. It's. You know, there's a lack of empathy in people's in general, where people just are so fast to judge and.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. The story of the guy, that Kentucky banker, like. Yeah, I just felt like oh, and then when Joe. Yeah. Was quickly saying, like, oh, well, he was greedy, so he kept going and it's like, no.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He was trapped in a way that you just have never haven't been. And so you, you can't see that. But you're right. I mean, telling more stories like this, and that's, you know, that's part of why I still do podcasts and wrote my book and I talk about it because, yeah, you know, it's really meaningful to me if I hear, like sometimes people say, you know, do you wish bad vegan was off the air? Well, no. I mean, if it was that or nothing. I know it has. I've heard from a couple of people who say they watched it and realized that they were in a coercive situation or they realized that their sister was in something. So if it helps some people, then it's better that it's not taken off the air, I guess, because it helps people. And so, you know, when I hear from people who have read my book and say it helps them feel less alone because that's part of what's painful about these situations is not just the tangible losses or people that were hurt to. That's really hard to live with, but the isolation and feeling stupid and ashamed and nobody understanding. So if my story helps people feel less alone and ashamed, that's useful. And then, you know, it would be really meaningful if younger people, younger women, you know, whether they read my book or hear about my story. But I think if they read the book and really understand how this happens, then maybe going forward it'll prevent it from happening to them or somebody like that tries to get to them and something reminds them of something from my story and they realize what's happening.

[B]

Yeah. And also the importance of unmasking him himself. Right. At least there's like out there a few. A doc series done about how evil this man is. And hopefully people who could potentially be his victims will watch it. I mean, not. Not only sort of society wise, it's good for people to watch it because I think there's a lot that they can gain from it. But even in the unmasking of himself, because this wasn't the first time that he did this to, to you. He had been married before and he

[A]

had done this in his first time. I mean, I, I think I said this somewhere else and I probably should send a copy of my book to the judge because I want to be like, look, he was never prosecuted for what he did to me. He was never prosecuted for what he did to me for he. He tormented my mother and got her to borrow money from people. So he put my mother through her own version of hell, which, of course, I feel responsible for, because it's like, it happened through. You know, if I'd never met him, he wouldn't have gotten into her life, too. And. And he was never prosecuted for what he did to her, to us, to her, or to me. And so that means now he's gonna go destroy somebody else's life and somebody else's life.

[B]

Yeah. I read something yesterday about how countries like England and Wales, Scotland and Ireland happens to be all in the same geographical place, have gone so far as to make coercive control itself a crime. Not just the physical violence, but the ongoing pattern of psychological domination. But these. It's like four countries. Why isn't this happening everywhere? I mean, why isn't. I would like to see it happen here, where if you do go to court, where, if, you know, it goes to the justice system, where they have something to. Some framework in place where it's not just about violence and it's not just about bruises and broken bones that you should have to pay for the fact that you make that. What he did to you. Like, that he. What he did to you.

[A]

He should. Absolutely. You know, in my case, like, I. I wanted the prosecution to subpoena my Gmails. I wanted them to get everything because I felt like the more that they uncovered and saw, they would realize what really happened. In my case, they didn't really care. And that, you know, and there was the whole, like, gross sexual abuse, too, which is very common. I mean, that happened in Nexium, you know, the way Keith Rayneri, who also abused, you know, Alison Mack and India Oxenberg, and.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, he was making India do all this disgusting stuff and framing it as if it was, like, part of her, you know, spiritual development. And so they come up. It's very common with cult leaders that they come up with some excuse as to why, you know, why the. The target, like, has to have sex with them. Because it's like, it's, you know, whatever. It's. It's for your own development. I have to make you do this.

[B]

Was that what he did to you?

[A]

Yeah. And then at one. I remember at one point, he said that it was really gross. He said that. That, like, he needed my light, which was really gross.

[B]

So he needed to have sex with you?

[A]

Yeah. Like, I. That's, like, the one chapter of my book. I think my father. My father read the beginning. And then I think at some point he stopped. I'm kind of like, okay, I'm glad you didn't get to like that chapter, because that's the chapter I'd want my dad to skip because it's kind of graphic. But. But that's so common that they. That sort of. These gurus will come. Come with some reason why they have to, you know, have sex with Everybody or have 10 wives or why this person has to be put through.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Some sort of sexual component. And it's. It's really gross because it kind of. That's another way of messing with your head.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. Yeah. And I. Chris asked me about that. So in part of my interview, so I. I was exhausted, and he asked me to talk about that whole part of it, and I did, and I'm like crying, and it was very difficult and painful. So when I first was able to watch Bad Vegan, shortly before it came out, I was like, oh, I'd be like, ugly crying on. It's gonna be embarrassing. And. And then he sort of. That part seems like it's coming up. And then cut it was completely eliminated.

[B]

Why do you think he didn't use that part?

[A]

Because I think if he did, then people would have gone, oh, wow, no, she's clearly the victim here.

[B]

And you.

[A]

You know, he wanted to be able to have it go both ways. So he cut that part out. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. In the end, he stole something like $1.8 million from you. Right. And like 400, 000 from your mom

[A]

or something like that. Roughly. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And I cannot believe he's still out there and still doing this. It's.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, as far as I know, he's doing it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right now. And I think is able to rationalize away. I think he's targeted people who've seen Bad Vegan and is somehow able to rationalize it. And that. That's how Bad Bad Vegan was. Is he's able to be like, oh, yeah, no, she's the. She was the mastermind of all this.

[B]

I don't think. I don't think anyone in their right mind can watch that and come up, come out with the idea that you

[A]

are the bad one in the story. It's crazy. It's been able to be framed that way.

[B]

Maybe it's because he's reached a certain level of celebrity. Right. That he can use that to his advantage somehow. Can you tell me about what you. So you wrote a book and what do you. What's. What are your what are your goals and aspirations? What are you trying to do? Would you like to open another restaurant? How's, what's your life like now?

[A]

Well, I, I, as I mentioned earlier, I stepped into something not long after I got out of jail. Oh yeah, I stepped into another situation and my defenses were down because it's like public information. I don't have any money, I have a bunch of debt. It's so like I don't have anything to take. And at that point I didn't have the understanding that it's not about the money, it's very often about controlling somebody. So I stepped into another situation that was like, that's a nutty, nutty story and I would like to write that. And then I went from that to then I, you know, and then it was after that that I then moved. I left New York for a while. The opportunity to make what I thought was going to be a useful documentary came and that turned out to be bad Vegan. So that was very preoccupying and sort of traumatic. And then I'd always said, I think I even said in the end of the show that I don't want to get back in the restaurant business for the sake of being in the restaurant business. It's very difficult. But if I had the opportunity to reopen that restaurant in that location, in that location to bring. Had remained available all that time. So that opportunity came up. But it came up in a way through people who wanted me to participate in a bad vegan too. But they didn't tell me that at the time. And it was a very unsavory situation that I wasn't aware of. And so that was another situation where I wasn't told the truth and was sort of, it's difficult to talk about because I always feel like people will say, oh, you're making yourself the victim. And it's like, well, yeah, but that happened and I'm not by nature suspicious of everybody. And anyway, I got, I thought I was going to be able to reopen everything and relaunch the business. And then that didn't happen and some other very painful stuff happened that put me in a worse situation. And so I, and I just could no longer, I mean, I was only going into more debt living in Manhattan again. And so I was like, I, I just have to get out of here. And, and I, I think I hit a wall when the last thing came apart where I remember asking my chat GPT like, like, what's a nervous breakdown? Like what is, what are the symptoms? Of that. And it, like, lists all this stuff. And I'm reading it going, okay, check me, check me, check. So I left the city and. Yeah, I mean, I've just been sort of laying low, trying to recover.

[B]

May I ask you a question? Do you ever. Now that you're so outspoken about your story and you've written this book, do you ever fear what he can do to you? That he can come back and do something? I mean, because he's obviously very deranged but also dangerous man. Right. Does that ever cross your mind?

[A]

Yes. And for some reason, I'm not. I'm more afraid of somebody else, but I just don't think he would bother. Like, it's. It's occurred to me it would have been interesting to be like a fly on a wall somewhere. The moment that he maybe saw the trailer for Bad Vegan and realized that I'd recorded him. Because the recording. His voice is in the. I even put his voice in the audiobook. So when I recorded the audiobook, and I think my book works better as an audiobook because it's very long, but I was able to use some of an earlier recording I'd made, and I use his voice in my audio book, which, again, a big publisher probably wouldn't have done. Let me do that. But I'm like, what is he gonna. Is he gonna come sue me? Like, bring it on. But anyway, part of me thought, I wonder what his reaction is the first time he learned that I'd recorded him and that I'm on camera and had a whole crew around. And now that's this trailer for this upcoming, you know, Netflix docu series or docu series. And, yeah, I have a funny feeling that he would be like. He would have been like, oh, she got me. Like, he'd be kind of impressed that I. That I got. Went over on him.

[B]

Yeah, but you wouldn't actually want to come after you. It's too much trouble, I guess.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, he's on to. I mean, he's on. Tragically, he's. You know, I mean, I. That gnaws at me. I. I just feel so. Like, it's painful knowing that there's somebody going through a version of what I was going through. And I, Like, I wish I could do something, but I just don't think he would bother coming after me.

[B]

Me.

[A]

And. And, you know, again, everything he did to me was psychological. He never. I mean, the sexual stuff was really gross, but it's not like he ever punched me. You know, sometimes I would get I would be the one who was, like, angry and he would physically restrain me, but he never. He never hit me. You know, it would be a lot easier if he had. People would have had more sympathy if he had hit me and I had photos of it or something. I just don't think he would bother. Yeah, but, yeah, that's not to say

[B]

I'm not, like, worried a little bit.

[A]

It's still eerie.

[B]

Back of your mind, I'm sure. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Sarma, this has been such an interesting conversation. Thank you so much for sharing your story. I really hope people watch this. I think, you know, particularly if they watched Bad Vegan. I hope people can watch this or listen to this because, like you said, I think was so much room for misinterpretation and for people.

[A]

And I want it to be useful. I want people to understand because tragically, it's happening to people's. You know, I mean, it happens to men, too. I know stories where men have been manipulated and, you know, if. If somebody can recognize that maybe it's happening to their sister or their mother and have more understanding, because I've ended up kind of sort of coaching some people through and, you know, helping them understand that, like, if you feel rejected right now by your mother, your sister, your friend, that's not her. Like, she's not there. She's not all there. It's like she's in a trance. And I mean that kind of literally because they do these sort of very hypnotic things so that you're doing things you wouldn't normally do. And so if there's some way that. Yeah, I mean, that's what I hope. My audiobook or my. I just hope that it helps spare people more damage and can bring further understanding for the people who've been through this so they don't feel as ashamed and stupid. Yeah.

[B]

I think your story can help a lot of people. And I forgot. But more important than actually listening to this episode is to buy and listen to your book, the Girl with the Duck Tattoo. Again, Sarma, it was so wonderful to have you on. Thank you for coming on the Hill.

[A]

Thank you. And thank you for everything that you're doing.

[B]

Oh, thank you.