Body-Brokering Survivor - The Hidden Third with Mariana van Zeller

Summary

The Hidden Third with Mariana van Zeller

Episode: Body-Brokering Survivor

Guest: Sequoia Thiessen
Date: November 5, 2025

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Overview

In this episode of The Hidden Third, host Mariana van Zeller dives into the shadowy world of patient brokering within the U.S. addiction treatment industry. She sits down with Sequoia Thiessen, a survivor of the body brokering scheme, for an unflinching account of how black-market systems exploit vulnerable individuals seeking addiction recovery. Sequoia's journey, from her tumultuous adolescence in Montana to surviving and escaping "the rehab shuffle" in Southern California, exposes the systemic failures and predatory incentives plaguing America's multi-billion-dollar recovery industry. The episode not only dissects the mechanisms of exploitation, but powerfully humanizes those caught in its web—with a deep call for reform, compassion, and accountability.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

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I. Sequoia’s Early Life and Descent into Addiction

• Family Background:
  • Sequoia is a member of the Turtle Mountain Band of Chippewa Indians, grew up in Montana.
  • Experienced an abusive, unpredictable environment due to her father's recurring imprisonment and alcoholism.
  • "My childhood was...marked by my dad getting in and out of prison. So it was like, abandonment issues."
    — Sequoia Thiessen [02:37]
• Mental Health Struggles:
  • Spent time in psychiatric wards as a teenager due to depression and violent thoughts.
  • Entered voluntarily at 16, seeking refuge from a difficult home life.
  • “I just wanted to go [to the psych ward] because I was so tired of my dad.”
    — Sequoia Thiessen [04:19]
• Path to Drug Use:
  • Early exposure to alcohol at age 10, followed by opiates (first tried morphine at 15-16).
  • An older boyfriend, met via Tinder at 16, pressured her into regular opiate use.
  • “He forced me into doing opiates with him...I had family members who had serious issues with opiates.”
    — Sequoia Thiessen [09:54]

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II. The Shift to Fentanyl and the Need for Help

• Addiction Escalation:
  • Addiction intensified post-COVID, progressing to daily fentanyl use (“the blues”), often unknowingly.
  • Sequoia describes maintaining a double life—working as an educator by day while managing her substance use.
• Seeking Rehabilitation:
  • With dreams of moving to LA, Sequoia actively sought out rehab centers, at first local, then in California—believing in the myth of "celebrity" treatment centers.
  • Encountered stigma and mishandling from local providers, highlighting how early experiences foreshadowed later exploitation.

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III. "Rehab Riviera," the Body Brokering Black Market, and the “Rehab Shuffle”

• Introduction to Body Brokering:
  • Definition: When clients are lured to treatment facilities with incentives (cash, clothing, housing, privileges), turning human lives into financial assets for providers.
  • "Body brokering is when you pay a client to come to your facility or you bribe them..."
    — Sequoia Thiessen [18:24]
• Mechanism of Exploitation:
  • Brokers (often former clients or people in recovery) recruit vulnerable individuals, receiving kickbacks based on clients' insurance value.
  • The most lucrative clients are those with premium insurance; care becomes transactional, and patients are moved (“shuffled”) between facilities when insurance runs dry.
  • "If you have really good insurance, they'll give you your own room."
    — Sequoia Thiessen [19:39]
  • The “rehab shuffle” describes the endless cycling of clients between centers, allowing continual insurance billing.

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IV. The Reality Behind the Rehab Facade

• Absence of Genuine Treatment:
  • Sequoia recounts farcical “group therapies,” sometimes consisting of playing Juice WRLD songs, or impersonal massive Zoom sessions.
  • “I can’t tell you how many meetings there were, Mariana, where they said, ‘We’re going to listen to a song that reminds you of your recovery.’ And then it was just an hour of listening to Juice WRLD.”
    — Sequoia Thiessen [21:05]
  • The appearance of treatment is maintained to justify insurance billing, but meaningful help is rare.
• Manipulation through Incentives and Pressure:
  • Staff manipulate clients by offering privileges or, in egregious cases, actively encouraging or enabling relapse (“liquid gold”—urine positive for drugs on test) to keep the financial pipeline flowing.
  • “There were people who would just give you drugs.”
    — Sequoia Thiessen [28:01]
• Insurance and Regulatory Failure:
  • Even the “best” centers prioritize profits. Once insurance won’t pay, patients are abruptly expelled, often ending up homeless and back at risk.
  • Oversight is grossly inadequate—a complaint about serious misconduct could take eight years for investigation ([26:34]).

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V. Connection, Exploitation, and the Human Cost

• Cyclical Entrapment:
  • Broker connections often become deeply personal; some brokers see themselves as rescuers, while still participating in the exploitative economy.
  • “My ex really believed that she was helping these people—she would get them off the street... But after a while, I couldn’t witness her doing it anymore.”
    — Sequoia Thiessen [32:44]
• Emotional Manipulation:
  • Residents are discouraged from future planning (“If you start talking about school...they start putting things in your head”), creating dependency and hopelessness [24:20].
• Fatal Outcomes:
  • The cycle is deadly; relapse induced by system incentives frequently leads to overdose and death.
  • “Death was normal...almost every week, my ex-girlfriend would say, ‘this person died, this person passed away.’”
    — Sequoia Thiessen [53:13]

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VI. Escape, Survival, and Reform

• Breaking Free:
  • With her family's help, particularly her mother, Sequoia escaped the cycle—receiving care and stable housing, enrolling in college, and founding Indigenous Scholars at Santa Monica College.
  • “I was very lucky.” — Sequoia Thiessen [41:00]
• Post-Traumatic Growth & Advocacy:
  • Now deeply involved in advocacy, Sequoia serves on local and state reform task forces, testifies before Congress, and has authored a book: Brokered: A Year Inside the Web of Patient Brokering (launching January 22).
  • “I didn’t even know that post-traumatic growth was a thing...but it means you’ve had a lot of trauma, but it’s made you grow.”
    — Sequoia Thiessen [52:18]
• Urgent Need for Change:
  • Sequoia advocates for:
    • Treating body-brokering as a form of human trafficking under California law so survivors can access resources.
    • Creation of mandatory exit plans for clients, including housing and employment assistance.
    • Universal healthcare to remove insurance incentives from care decisions.
    • “There’s no such thing as a perfect victim...I just want people to understand our human side as people.”
      — Sequoia Thiessen [45:32]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On group therapy’s futility:
  “Literally...these meetings, these groups, they’re just a waste of time.”
  — Sequoia Thiessen [21:19]

• On the moral hazard at the heart of body brokering:
  “Your health is a threat to them, actually...Because if you get better, they’re going to stop making money from you.”
  — Sequoia Thiessen [33:52, 33:56]

• On systemic betrayal:
  “It’s very much...they take you into a mindset of living day by day, and they’ll brainwash you into that too.”
  — Sequoia Thiessen [23:53]

• On the consequences:
  “That’s blood on the hands of many of these providers, in my mind.”
  — Mariana van Zeller [47:57]

• On luck and survivor’s guilt:
  “I've been very lucky...I think about the people lost a lot...I just try to think about what I can do to use my position that I have now to advocate for those people.”
  — Sequoia Thiessen [54:33]

• On hope and personal transformation:
  “Now my life is so different. Even my mindset and stuff like that...sometimes I’m like, how did I get here?...I really just wanted to go to school and I really wasn’t planning on being like a star student or advocate or anything.”
  — Sequoia Thiessen [46:04]

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Important Timestamps

• Sequoia’s childhood and first exposure to addiction: [02:02–04:19]
• Descent into opiates, early warning signs: [09:25–11:29]
• Introduction to “body brokering” and the LA rehab black market: [17:45–19:45]
• Exposing the “rehab shuffle”: [24:27–25:19]
• The reality behind group therapy and facility incentives: [21:05–22:39]
• Insurance exploitation and regulatory failure: [26:18–26:40]
• First-hand accounts of being pushed to relapse for profit: [26:54–28:32]
• Complicated role of brokers and the interconnected web: [30:06–32:20]
• Systemic issues, advocacy, and solutions: [34:34–37:33]
• Personal escape, survival, and activist journey: [40:14–43:47]
• Impact of trauma and survivor’s guilt: [52:05–54:33]
• Closing thoughts, hope, and Sequoia’s activism: [55:01–end]

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Conclusion

This episode is a piercing look into the predatory underbelly of America’s addiction treatment industry—a market that all too often turns suffering into profit at the expense of the very people it claims to help. Through Sequoia’s raw and insightful testimony, The Hidden Third offers not just exposure of injustice, but a rallying cry for reform, compassion, and re-humanization of those “in the shuffle.” Sequoia’s journey from victim to advocate is both a warning and an inspiration.

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Book Mentioned:

• Brokered: A Year Inside the Web of Patient Brokering by Sequoia Thiessen
  • Available for pre-sale on Amazon (Release: Jan 22)

For Further Information:

• Santa Monica College Indigenous Scholars
• California Sober Living and Recovery Task Force

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Memorable last words:
"I think this whole journey has taught me...post-traumatic growth."
— Sequoia Thiessen [52:18]

Transcript

[Unknown Prisoner]

When I was there, you had to have a knife. One of you's got to take turns carrying it up your rectum.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Wait, it's up your butt.

[Unknown Prisoner]

That's the prison wallet. You'll never leave home alone.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

You have something protected around it, I'm assuming.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah.

[Unknown Prisoner]

Or else you'll be bleeding out your coolo.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I'm Mariana Van Zeller, and after reporting on black markets for my Emmy winning National Geographic show, Trafficked, I'm launching a podcast.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

You're getting emotional on me.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Intimate conversations with those operating in the shadows. The Hidden Third is out now with new episodes every Wednesday. [e-mail] marianavanzeller Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And it's a real problem, and it's a growing problem all across the United States.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah, it's a lot more common than people think. Body brokering also comes in the form of privileges. So, like, you get to stay in the room with your partner. You get to.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

If you stay in this sober.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

If you stay in this sober living.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Right. And if you continue going to our.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Treatment or some people get their own room, if you have really good insurance, they'll give you your own room. They'll say, you know, nobody bother you.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Right.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

My name is Sequoia Thiessen. I am a descendant of the Turtle Mountain Band of Chippewa Indians. So I grew up in Montana.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

So I first met you when I was reporting on an episode of my show, my Nat Geo show called Trafficked. The episode was called the Great American Rehabs Camp. It's such a convoluted name that sometimes I even forget what the name of the episode was. But essentially it was about the fraudulent addiction treatment centers that are out there that have created, like, almost a black market for the buying and selling of people, some of the most vulnerable people in our society, which are people that are dealing with addiction, which at the time was people like you. You got caught up in this crazy net, in this crazy black market where you were sort of openly sold. I was really fascinated by your story, and so I wanted to have you on the podcast so you could share with us. First of all, I think we'd start with, how did you get caught up in all of this?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

So it's really crazy to look back on it now because I really just wanted to go to rehab, and I really wasn't expecting it to be everything that it was.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Why did you want to go to rehab? How did it start for you?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

I guess it probably started all the Way back in, like, high school, because I had, like, a really hard home life, and I ended up going to the psych board a couple of times, but I really wasn't able to share with them, like, what was really going on in my home life because I had this really overbearing dad that was, like, controlling everything that I did.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And what was your childhood like, if you don't mind sharing that with us?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

My childhood was. It was normal, but it was also marked by, like, my dad getting and out of prison. So it was like, abandonment issues.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And did he have addiction problems as well?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah, with, like, alcohol. And it was more so like a binge drinking thing where, like, he wouldn't drink every day, but it was like, when he did drink, it was very, like, he would usually go to jail.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Was he abusive?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yes. Yeah, he was very physical and he was just very strict. Like, I remember playing, like, every single sport and having to watch back my sport videos. That's kind of like where I get a lot of my discipline from. Like, I'm a very hard worker. I consider myself a workaholic.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

But he would make you watch those videos?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah, he would make me watch them back to just say, like, what did I did wrong? Or what could we do better?

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Did you have brothers and sisters?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah, I'm the oldest of four siblings now, so I have a brother, I have two sisters, and then I also have a stepbrother now.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And so you lived at home until how old? Until what age?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Until I was, I think, 20 something. But I ended up calling the police on my dad and getting him out of our house at, like, 17. After my third time in the psych ward, I was like, I cannot deal with you anymore. You're driving me crazy.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Why were you institutionalized?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

I was depressed. I was very, like, I had a lot of violent thoughts myself, others. And I didn't realize that that was like, a symptom. I didn't realize that wanting to hurt yourself is a symptom, but also wanting to hurt other people and be mad at other people and take it out on other people is a symptom.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

So how old were you when this happened?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

I was 16. I was 16.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

So your parents sent you to a psych court?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah, I spent my sweet 16 there.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Because what was. Was there something, actually that happened that made them send you there?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

I just wanted to go.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Oh, you asked?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah, I asked to go because I was so tired of my dad. I couldn't deal with him anymore. And so by the time he did leave at 17, like, a lot of damage had already been done. And so that's kind of when I started doing, like, opiates. Just he left the house, my mom's house, like, was like a free for all. Like, after he left. Like, my mom is not strict at all. So I went from being really strict to being like, not strict at all. And then I ended up in a relationship with somebody that was much older than me. And that's how I got into opiates.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

What was your first opiate you tried?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

I want to say morphine.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Wow. Straight to morphine.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Straight to morphine, yeah.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Did you inject it or how did you take it?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

I think I just took it. Like the pills.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Okay. Morphine pill. Okay.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah. And it was my friend, and I remember my friend being like weirded out at me and him being like, I'm not going to give you any more of this. Like, you're kind of like, you like it, like too much. And it was before I ever even really got so into it. But.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And at this point, I imagine you'd done. You'd smoked weed before or done other drugs or.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Okay, yeah, I actually, in Montana, it's pretty common to start drinking, like, really young. Like, as soon as you're alone and you can get access to alcohol, you're probably drinking if you're Native American.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And so you'd been drinking since how old?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Like 10. Wow. Like, was when I had my first drink. Yeah. And I wouldn't say routinely drinking, but that was when I had my first drink and I was like, okay, this is like a thing that people do.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Did you like the. What I did to you?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

I did. I feel like I've always, like, had so much weight on my shoulders that it made me feel lighter and made me feel happier, more confident. Like everything that everyone says, like all.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Those things, and then fast forward to the first opiate that you tried.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yes. That was like. I think that was. I was like 15, 16. So I had. I was kind of in and out of the psych ward for like a year or two. I had spent like, I think total, like four months there, total. And they ended up kicking me out because they didn't know what was wrong with me. They actually said that I was too crazy for them. Like they didn't know what to deal with. Do with me.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Did they diagnose you with anything?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Not really. Like, I think they called, they said I was bipolar, but I. They really diagnose every woman with that. So I side eye that a little bit, you know. But yeah, that was I didn't go to rehab until I was 22. So from like 17, getting out of the psych ward, being kicked out. Actually that was like four years or something.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Until during, until you were 22, when you rent, entered rehab, were you addicted to opiates at that point?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

I wasn't addicted to opiates the whole time. Probably the last two years. It got really bad. Like after Covid. Like 20, 20 after Covid, it got super bad.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

What were you doing?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Fentanyl. Like the blue pills, the. The blues, which was supposed to be oxy, but looking back now that I know like what fentanyl tastes like and everything, that was not ever oxy. That was always fentanyl.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

That was always fentanyl. Yeah, I was in a lab filler.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Shit.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

To be honest, I was in a lab in Sinaloa in Mexico where I watched these being pressed. It's the. Exactly. It's the blue, the blue pills, they're being sold as if they're M30 pills, but in fact it's actually fentanyl and there's. Yeah, yeah.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Back then I didn't even know that fentanyl was a thing. Like I. I was so naive. And then I, I guess I realized it like when I was doing it, I was also.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

How, if you don't mind me asking, how were you using it? Were you crushing them or how?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

I always snorted them.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Uh huh. So you crushed and snorted?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah, I didn't like to. I didn't like to smoke it. I feel like that's disgusting. They stink so bad when you do that. Some people like that.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

How much were you doing at the peak of your addiction?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Probably like three or four pills a day, which honestly isn't really that much, looking back. Like there were people who I knew that did like 20 like a day, and if I had a bunch, I might do more. But for the most part, because I was a teacher, I was an educator since I was 18. I really didn't use this stuff to get high. I really just used it to like get through the day. I had really bad chronic pain. I still do. You know, I honestly didn't even use it at work either.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

What teaching were you doing at that time?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

So I started out at Head Start. And what's that? Head Start is like a federal program and it's like a preschool. So it's like, has a really strict curriculum. They teach them a second language, find gross motor skills, but also like regular gross motor skills.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Did you like kids? Do you like kids?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

I loved it.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Oh, that was Great.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

I really loved that job. Like, I could go to that job and just forget about everything.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And this was in Montana, right? And you didn't need to a college. You decided you didn't want to go.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

To college at this time, I hadn't gone to college, but I had received, like, a lot of job training. I had went to night school, which, through Head Start, they give you, like, a night school thing that's, like, equivalent to an associate's degree. So you go to work during the day, at night, you go to night school, and then you earn, like, what's equal to an associate's degree in child development.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

That's great. Okay, so at one point, you were crushing four of these pills a day, and you would say that was the height of your addiction, and you were still living in Montana with your mom?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah, no, I had my own place. I moved out of my mom's house when I was, like. I think I was 20. I think I turned 21 outside of her house during COVID But me and her just didn't agree on a lot of things. I was a little bit too wild. She wanted her house to be really calm and chill. So I ended up moving with that man who had groomed me. And obviously, I'm a lesbian now, so hindsight. This is crazy, but I moved in with him for not even a month. I couldn't stand living with a man.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And this is the older man that you mentioned. So how did you meet him, and what was that relationship like?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

I think I met him on, like, Tinder when I was, like, 16 or something.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

How old was he?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

He was, like, 26, 27. Like, a real. And I think during that time, like, I had a lot of daddy issues. And so, like, I would confuse wanting attention from my dad with, like, wanting attention from older men, but it never, like, it never worked. Like, it never, like, gave you what you wanted. Like, you ended up just being creeped out or feeling weird, so.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And he was the one who introduced you to opiates?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah, actually, he forced me into doing opiates with him.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

How so?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Because we were hanging out one night, and I vividly remember him starting to crush up his little blue pill or whatever, and he's like, okay, well, you should do this with me so we can have, like, a fun night. And I was like, I don't want to do that. Like, a lot of people in my family have serious issues with opiates. Like, one thing I remember when I was a child was some of my family members robbing my grandparents for opiates. And it was like, it was a big deal in our family. It was like a big breach of trust. I was like a kid and I had known about it. Like, that's how much people talked about it. And, like, I knew, like, the stigma behind or the things that you might resort to, I guess, like, when you do drugs like that. So I really wasn't into it. Even though I had done opiates before, I really wasn't that into it. I was like, whatever. But he kind of just pressured me. And I'm really not that easy to be pressured, but it was kind of like a harsh thing. And then I did it. And then after that, I was like, I did not need to be convinced anymore. In the beginning, it's very like, you have a lot of energy. Like, I would clean my house.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

That's not usually what people associate with opiates at all. It's a downer. So people think that, yes, it's weird.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

It's weird, huh? Like, I would be able to clean my house, but I also wouldn't take a lot of. I would just take the littlest amount that you possibly could, you know? And I'm not trying to separate myself from addicts or anything, but I think that's why this scheme affected me differently than it affects some people. Because when I went, I wasn't like, at rock bottom, like, how other people perceive as their rock bottom. Like, there's this idea that when you're a drug addict, you're at rock bottom. You have no job and, like, you have no friends and you have no family or you're, like, not successful and.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

You had all those things. You had a job, you had a family, obviously, and you were. You were perfectly able to still go about your life even though you were crushing pills and snorting.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah, it was mostly the relationships that were falling apart.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And so how did you find out about these rehab facilities in the first place? And they were here. So you're living in Montana and you find out that there are some rehab facilities or treatment centers in California, right?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And how did you hear about them and what attracted you to them?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

So I think I always knew that you could go to rehab in Florida. And so that was, like, in the back of my mind. It wasn't even something I wanted to do. But when I started discussing, like, okay, you need to go to rehab. I really wanted to move to LA anyway. That was like, my dream. I was like, oh, I really want to live in la. It's like, go to school here. All that. But I knew that my drug addiction wasn't sustainable. Like, I knew, like, okay, square, you cannot move to LA when you're, like, doing drugs. Like, you have to get clean. And so I tried to go to a local place that's near me, like, an outpatient, because I figured, okay, I can just. I had detoxed myself a lot of times at this point, so I wasn't really attached to the idea of going to a detox even, really. I was just like, let me just get through this. And then I was more worried about seeking help that, like, I could talk about someone with it. Okay, so actually, this is a whole story. I. I got across the street from my house. There was a hospital. So I figured, okay, let me just go to this hospital across the street from my house. And so I go over there, and I'm wearing. Like, it's the middle of summer, because I was off break from being a teacher. So I was really trying to get this handled, like, right away. And so it was, like, early summer, I think July, like, the middle. Middle of summer. And it was hot. So I was wearing a little tank top. And the woman in the group, I just go and I sit down. It's a group. It's like a free whatever. And the woman is like, excuse me. Like, you need to pull up your shirt. And she's like, a therapist. And I'm like, what the hell is your issue? Like, why are you caring about my shirt right now? Like, I'm literally in active addiction. And the whole room, it's like, all men. So it was very awkward. Like, I was put into a really weird position, and then I cussed her out because I was like. I was just irritated. Like, anybody could get cussed out when I was on opiates. Anybody could get cussed out. I was always irritated. I still am like that today a little bit, but much so more back then. And so I kind of just flipped out on her and I left the room. And then my therapist who was at that office was like, hey, do you want to have a session real quick? Because of course they want to bill you for that session. Like, even going all the way back to that, I can see the pattern. Like, even in my book, this is how the pattern starts. Because that woman was supposed to take care of me in the room. She was supposed to be a safe person, yet she attacked me, she dehumanized me, and she denied me care, basically, right? And then I walk out, and then there's another woman ready to play savior, being like, oh, what happened? That's the whole cycle of rehab. That's it. And I had experienced it before I had even came out here to la.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Which is interesting, huh? And so the woman who was outside sat you down, you guys talked and.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

That'S who showed me.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And she started looking up and saw and she told Yul, actually there's some rehab facilities that are really good in California.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

And at this time, I really didn't know that there was a bunch of rehabs in la. I knew there was a few, but I had no idea that it was the hotspot that it was.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

I really. Southern California is known as the Rehab Riviera, as you now know.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Now I know that.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

But at the time, thousands and thousands.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

At the time I just thought it was like a couple celebrity rehabs. And that's what I thought. Like, that was my vision of it. Right. I was like, okay, well I have good insurance so I can go to one of these good places. And that's what she had kind of told me.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And interestingly, you have good. I remember you telling me this, but you have had good insurance because of. You had insurance through your mom, right?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah, good insurance, but it also wasn't that good. Like it was kind of mid. They would take my ex girlfriend's insurance, but they would be like weird about mine. Like they'd be like, yeah, she has a blue cross. But it's like from Montana. So like depending on the state, it's ranked differently.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Huh. Okay, so yours was considered mid. When did you realize that was. Oh yeah, I guess let's walk through this.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Higher. It was like it depended on the place.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Right. Which you later found out was actually very important. Right. Because they put a lot of importance on what kind of insurance you have.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah, that's everything.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Right. And so. But before we get there, so you're. So you're there. So they tell you there's these rehab centers and then what happened? This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. I'm going to be honest, I don't love this time of the year when it starts to get cold and the days get shorter, when it's dark at like 5pm And I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way. One thing that helps me get through this period is reaching out to people I love. I call, I text, I plan hikes and dinners and drinks and any excuse to talk to people, to see people, to feel connected. I think it's a way to remind myself that I'm not alone. That's what therapy can offer too. A structured check in. And in this case, with someone trained to help. BetterHelp works with fully licensed US therapists. They match you after a short questionnaire. And because they have 12 plus years of experience, they typically get it right the first time. But even if the fit isn't perfect, you can switch anytime. With more than 30,000 therapists and over 5 million people served, BetterHelp is one of the world's largest online therapy platforms. And it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews this month. Don't wait to connect. Whether you're checking in on a friend or reaching out to a therapist yourself, BetterHelp makes it easier to take that first step. Our listeners get 10% off their first [e-mail] Mariana that's betterhelp.com Mariana.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

So I kind of was like, okay, well, she was kind of really telling me, like, you need to go to detox. Like, you don't have a choice. You should detox. And then kind of immediately I was like, okay, like, my mind just shifted. She started telling me, yeah, like, you'll go to sober living and then you'll go to IOP or sorry, you'll go to detox and then sober living and they'll help you like, get a place and stuff. And that's literally how she like, because that makes sense. You know, you go through treatment, they help you get a job, and they make sure that you're on your way is nothing of the sort.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

What happened when you arrived in California? So then you fly out here by yourself?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah, I did. It was like really quick. We, we call this guy, his name is Casey from Refined Recovery. And I'm saying his name because he's legit.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Okay.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Like, he's actually probably one of the most only legit people out there. And he told me that he was like, sequoia, there's a lot of people that are crazy and they just want money. And so you're going to a really good place. Like, I'm like, he was kind of like anxious. Not like in the body broker way where he wanted me to come to his place. But he was definitely trying to tell me what was going on and put me on game without giving me the information. Like, oh, you can go to this place and get paid. Because there are people who say that they're against body brokering.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

So explain what body brokering is because most people don't know what it is.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

So Body brokering is when you pay a client to come to your facility or you bribe them with things like you say, we'll buy you a new wardrobe, we'll buy you this, we'll buy you that.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

We offer you free housing.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Free housing? Yeah. That's body brokering offering you a job, making you live there and be a client. That's body brokering. It encompasses so many different things. I think people think that it's just getting paid, but it's so much more than that.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

So, yeah, it's basically giving you an incentive to stay in this place. Sometimes it's free housing or free clothing, like you said. Sometimes it's actual just money and offering an incentive to come and stay at this place so that you can then go into these treatment centers where they can provide you treatment or sometimes bogus treatment and bill your insurance for things. Thousands and thousands of dollars. And the problem with some of these fraud centers or fraud addiction treatment centers is that they're actually not providing the service or the treatment that they are supposed to be providing. And these are some of the most vulnerable people in our country. And it's a real problem, and it's a growing problem all across the United States.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah, it's a lot more common than people think. Body brokering also comes in the form of privileges. So, like, you get to stay in the room with your partner. You get to.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

If you stay in this. If you stay in this.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

If you stay in this sober.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

L. Right. And if you continue going to our.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Treatment, some people get their own room. If you have really good insurance, they'll give you your own room. They'll say, you know, nobody bother you.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Right. So this was my idea of what a sober home looks like and what treatment sort of looks like. I have never been to one of these before, but I have, you know, reported extensively on the opioid crisis for many years. So my idea was that the best thing that can happen to any drug user is to end up in a sober home. Because these are clean facilities. Drugs are not allowed ins. You're staying there while after you go through detox, obviously you're staying in one of these and you're being taken out to a treatment center. These are two separate entities completely. And in these treatment centers, you're given the treatment that you so badly need that includes perhaps group therapy, individual therapy, anything that can help you deal with your addiction and get better. Right?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And what was the reality? That was not actually what you're expecting.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

The group therapy thing's making me giggle. Already. Cause we never really had group therapy. It was like, people would come and they would talk about stuff. Sometimes it would get so dark that the facilitator didn't even have the tools in their toolbox to, like, manage what we were talking about. And then other times it was so surface level that it was, like, ridiculous. I can't tell you how many meetings there was, Mariana, where they said, we're gonna listen to a song that reminds you of your recovery. And then it was just an hour of listening to, like, Juice World.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And that was your group therapy. Yeah, that they were charging insurance thousands of dollars for you to be there and listening to a song.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Everyone just puts on their favorite Juice WRLD song, essentially. That was what it.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And that's supposed to help you deal with your addiction, I guess.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Like, these meetings, these groups, they're just a waste of time. Like, literally.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

I heard some groups. One of the people that I spoke to, she was telling me, actually a couple of people that we spoke to while we were investigating this told me that they were in group meetings on Zoom that had dozens. That had hundreds of people, like 400 people. In a Zoom meeting.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yes. I was dying at. It's not funny. But it is. Because sometimes you join and it's like 140 people. Sometimes you join and it's three people.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And so how are you expected to get any help if you have 140 people on a Zoom call?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

It just becomes about the notes. Like, they don't. They're not really worried about that. It just becomes a check off of your day.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Your day. But for them, it's 140 people that can charge insurance.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

And it's a check off for them too. But also they're overworking their staff. So their staff has to write 140 notes on 140 people. It's, like, impossible. So the notes end up being like, jack is happy today. Or some. It ends up being, you know, bs. But sometimes it's very coordinated and the therapists are writing exactly what the owner wants. A lot of times in some. Some of these places, that's not how it's going. It's just a machine that the therapists write what they want. Like, this is one of the things I'm. I'm leading up to. All these politicians always say, well, we want to fund the good treatment centers. That's BS because even the best treatment center is going to bill you until the last possible day, and then they're going to kick you to the curb. Everyone does that.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

You mean the moment that they are not getting the money that they need from Ihad. But that part I sort of understand. Right. Because these are not charity organizations. They're there to make a profit. They're there to make money. So if they think that, you know, your insurance isn't going to pay for you anymore, the government isn't going to pay for you anymore, then I'm sorry, you have to leave our facility because we cannot afford to house you or take care of you or treat you.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah, I think it's frustrating for me who now works with the cities, because the cities pay the price. They're the ones who have to deal with the homeless people on the street. They're the ones who have to get these people permanent housing. Once they are kicked on the street, then they mess up their sobriety. And a lot of times they pass away because they go out and they use again and then they die because their tolerance. That's why I don't agree with forced treatment, because you're forcing people into treatment, they're gonna use again and they're gonna.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Die as soon as they use. Right. And you're saying basically that there should be sort of a system in place for when these people leave these rehab facilities so that they should be legally.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Obligated to offer you housing and stuff.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Like a safety net. Yeah, right, of course. I mean, you just spent years, sometimes even decades, you know, living with addiction without a job sometimes. A lot of times you. Your family is not there for you anymore. So, yeah, you've been abandoned.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah, that was what I was seeing. A lot. A lot of people get pregnant in these schemes because they're being allowed to live with a boyfriend or a girlfriend, and there's no kind of like, there's no future planning going on. It's. It's very much. They take you into a mindset of living day by day, and they, they. They'll brainwash you into that too. If you start thinking too far ahead, if you start talking about school. Oh, you need to focus on your sobriety. Oh, you're worried about other things. You're gonna relapse. Like, they start putting things in your head.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

So what. What treatments were you given when you were some of these? How many. First of all, how many treatment centers or rehab facilities were you at?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

I was at a lot. In total, it could have been around 50, but I didn't stay at all of them, if that makes sense. Towards the end, the shuffle was getting so bad that me and my ex girlfriend, we would go to a. A place and we would like tour it. Like, we would be like, okay, I'm not living here. Like, this is horrible. But they're all horrible. Like, we just got to a place where we were looking at all these sober livings, trying to find somewhere that was bearable. And it was just like we'd go to one place and then it would just be disgusting. We'd go to another place. It'd be people overdosing. We'd go to another place. It'd be a bunch of people that we know are like doing bad things and we don't want to be in the house with them because it's like, makes us a target.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

So you visited about 50 or more.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

We would move all of our stuff physically and then we would be like, we can't stay here.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And then you'd move to another one because there's tons of these out there that you can go to.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

There's so many.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And I remember you talking about this. But back to the idea that you and your ex girlfriend had good insurance so there would be more options for you guys out there, right?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah. And even hers got burnt with what we call burnt after a while.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

What does that mean?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

It means that even if you have the best insurance, your insurance starts paying less and less or they're less willing to pay. So they're going to fight every single entity more and more and more to say, does she really need this treatment? So they have to provide a lot more proof. And that was causing a lot of issues because these, a lot of these people who are entering this fraudulent stuff into the computer, they're not that smart. Like, you know, they're not all criminal masterminds. There's a few of them that are. But that's why I really stress to the California Sober Living and Recovery Task Force. I'm like, these people aren't that smart and they're outsmarting you. So you need to think harder. You know what I mean? Like, it's really just the fact that they have no oversight. Like, I don't know if you saw that one of the bills was basically just that. DCHS has to email you back when.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

What?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

When you make a complaint about a sober living. And that's a serious complaint, like a murder, a death, a rape.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

So they have to at least email you back to say that they received the email. The complaint.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah. And that wasn't a rule before. That was only a rule like this year.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Wow. So you had no idea if anyone was even listening to you.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah. And it would take Them up to eight years to complete an investigation about a death, a rape or a murder.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Which is why we've gotten to the situation in which we're now. What were some of the most, most egregious examples that you saw of this fraudulent industry? Because you, I remember you telling me like, crazy, crazy stuff. Tell us about what is, what's. What's liquid gold?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

So liquid gold is, you know, your pee after you relapse. So they will tell you, like, okay, you're gonna have to go to detox. And then it always becomes a thing like, okay, I'm gonna go to detox, so I have to relapse. Like, you have to, like, mentally prepare.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Yourself, but explain why. So basically what you're doing, pay that payoff. You have to be tested, right? If you're staying in one of these, if you're going to. Of these treatments, you have to be tested for detox, specifically urine tested. Right. And to make sure that you're clean or not. And if you're not clean, then you have to go back to detox. And some of these providers actually wanted you to test dirty because they can make more money out of detox than just regular treatment after detox, correct?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah, very common. I'm like, so many situations are going through my head right now.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Can you tell me one of the things you told me at the time in some of these facilities is we talked about liquid gold. But can you explain what. There were situations in which you were actually in a car with house manager. With the house manager from the sober home, and that he was giving you weed, right. So that you would go to test dirty so they could then send you to detox and make money out of your insurance.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

No, that was just a normal day. That was just a normal day. If they were going to send you to detox, they knew that you wanted your drug of choice. Like when, when it was time to relapse, there was people who would just give you drugs.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And why would you want to detox? I mean, that's what's confusing to me because I understand that if you're in a sober home and yeah, you're being tested, and then you. You're perhaps behind people's backs, have done drugs because you're. You have a drug addiction, and then.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Honestly, you really don't want to.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

That's what I'm trying to get at. Can you explain how that works?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

You kind of just be put in. You. You get put into into a position where you have to. And that's. It's lots of different ways that you get put into that position. Sometimes you get drugs and they say, okay, you're testing positive, so you need to go or you're not going to have it. Where? Anywhere to go.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Right. So that's not, that's not a case where they're giving you the drugs, that you actually take the drugs, they find out and they send you to detox. Yes. Okay.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

But like, what I'm. What I'm saying is that happens in many different ways. So, like this happened so many different times. So many different ways. Like my ex girlfriend had been drugged at certain points.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Had been drugged. What do you mean? Like she was given drugs?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yes.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

By whom?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

By brokers.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

By people in the rehab facilities that stand to make money.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

No, no, no, it's never the people in the rehab facility.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Okay.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

It's people outside of it who are marketers.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Right. The body brokers.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

If you were to go into a rehab that pays people and say, oh, you know, you guys pay people, every single person would play stupid with you. In fact, some of them might not even know.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

So they pay people to pay people?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yes.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Right.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yes. That's what a marketer or body broker.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And I know, I know this happens because when we were doing the story, we also reported in Arizona and we interviewed. Yeah, it depends on how a whistleblower who told us he was being paid $200 for every person he brought into the sober to the treatment center.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah, it depends. I mean, like, for example, when I got sent to that place, I knew it was a woman at the treatment center who did it. I knew it was a woman at the treatment center who was getting paid off me. So sometimes it's somebody in the treatment center, but most of the time it's somebody outside of it. Like the way that my ex did it, she did it in a weird way where nobody even assumed that she was a broker.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Your ex, you're saying, would actually go out there and recruit people and was being paid for it?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah, but she had kind of made it into just like a normal thing that she did. Like, we would go places and she'd be like, what's up, man? Like, where are you from? Like, you know, and she would chat it up with every single person there. She would get their Facebook, she would get their Instagram, she would get their phone number, and she would basically portray herself as like, oh, I know the name of the game. Like, I'll put you on game. I know everything. Like, I know the good places to go, know the bad place, which is A broker.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Right. And then once she would bring these people to these centers, what, these treatment centers, what would happen? How much money was she paid? Do you know?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Probably it depended on the person and their insurance, because that's part of the sick part is like some people are literally worth less because their insurance isn't as good, but probably anywhere from like 800 to like 1500 to 2000 per person.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Per person.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

And depending on how long they stayed or if it was detox or.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And of course, this is completely legal.

[Unknown Prisoner]

When I was there, you had to have a knife. One of you's gotta take turns carrying it up your rectum.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Wait, it's up your butt.

[Unknown Prisoner]

That's the prison wallet. You never leave home alone.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

You have something protected around it, I'm assuming.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah.

[Unknown Prisoner]

Or else you'll be bleeding out your coolo.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I'm Mariana Van Zeller, and after reporting on black markets for my Emmy winning National Geographic show, Trafficked, I'm launching a podcast.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

You're getting emotional on me.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Intimate conversations with those operating in the shadows. The Heat Hidden 3rd is out now with new episodes every Wednesday. [e-mail] mariannavanzeller Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

It's not allowed. This is a kickback. Basically, you're paying people to come and stay so you can profit out of their income.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

And this is where it becomes true brokering. Because it's not just. If I'm a broker, I don't just work with this facility. No. Why would I just work with this facility? Because there's going to be clients that come to me and say, I'm not going to that facility because I've already been there. So you have to work with a lot of them.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

So it's basically what you're saying. That's why it's called the rehab shuffle. Right. Because you're having the same sort of group of people being shuffled around these different centers, these different detox. Everybody knows each other and the owners are making a lot of money on the backs of, again, some of the most vulnerable people in our society. Right. And you were one of them. Yes.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah. I really even felt like they try really hard to make sure that it's like under wraps as well. Like, everyone knows that it's illegal, but it's like you almost exist in this weird dimension where you believe that even if you were to go tell people, nobody really cares like you, you were really taught that just based off that.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

You don't matter, that you don't matter.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah. Like, and then it kind of sends a message. You start twisting your mind. Because my ex really believed that she was helping these people because she would get them off of the street. Like, they would call her and be like, I'm on the street. Like, I need to go somewhere. And she would get them somewhere. And so she felt good about that. But after a while, I was just, like, I couldn't witness her doing anymore because it takes over one's life. Like, this is something that people don't talk about very often. Brokers can't stay sober because their entire life, their phone is ringing off the hook all day long. Literally all day long. It's like they're the American addiction center.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

From people who want to get into these rehab facilities and are trying to figure out where to go. So, yeah, it's interesting because it's almost like it's like a consultant in the black market. It's like an illegal consultant. Right. They're the ones who know all the rehab facilities, know where to send people, but they're also getting illegal kickbacks from these facilities to take people there.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

It's referral only.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Right. And why. It's important to understand why this is bad is because you're profiting. You're exploiting your patients through the value of their insurance. Right. Without, and in many cases, actually not offering people the treatment that they so badly need.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah. Your health is a threat to them, actually.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Right.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

They don't.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Because if you get better, they're going to stop making money from you. So they actually want you to stay in the loop, to stay in the shuffle.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah. That's why I couldn't. I couldn't, like, deal with it because I was like. It was only a year that I was in it. Right. So that whole, like, six months before, I was at legit places, like, quote, unquote. None of them were legit. None of them helped me. They just moved me around, shuffled me around, charged my insurance. Actually, by the time I went to all the fraudulent facilities, my insurance was burnt. Like, So I didn't even.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

So your insurance wasn't even paying for it?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

No, I didn't even really got paid.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

So what is the solution if you're struggling with addiction and you actually do need to go to treatment? Where. Where do you go? What's.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

I think that we should.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Because I. I'm sure. I know there ha. There have to be. We interviewed an insurance fraud, somebody in the California Insurance Fraud Department. Oh, Vlad. Yeah, Vlad. He was great. I love him. Yeah, he's and what he. His estimate, which he even said is probably a low estimate, was that there are thousands of these rehab facilities throughout California. And his estimate is that about 10% of them are fraudulent. I think it's more, but he thinks, yeah, it's a low number, but I'm sure there's. There's a lot of great rehab centers out there. So how. What do we do? I mean, you went through so many. I mean, there has to be some that you thought, okay, they're actually offering treatment. Maybe the treatment wasn't helping you, but they're offering treatment. They're offering group therapy that's actually valuable. They have therapists.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

They have places like that. But the oxymoron becomes. Is that it's still just about your money. Cause it's all. When you're at a place that's providing you kickboxers, yoga. That was the first place I went to. They're charging you a lot of money. Money a day.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

They're offering. What's kickboxers like?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Like. Like just, you know, professional kickboxing.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Like, oh, classes. Like, I thought they were offering you the men.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Oh, no, I'm dead. No, like, it was like, the first place I went was very bougie. He had really good therapists.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Okay.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

But money still has to go to that stuff, you know, so it's like, it kind of just becomes a thing of like, okay, here's two business models. One of them is just pocketing all the money. The other one is paying all their staff. They honestly have the same outcome because the insurance runs out and then the person gets kicked to the curb. So even if you did get good treatment, not saying that. That doesn't mean anything. Obviously, I had really good therapists at some of these places. That really pushed my mindset forward permanently. But my solution, and I'm very radical, I think that we need free health care in California in general. Right. I mean, yeah.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

I mean, yeah, I would say that this is the problem with healthcare in general in this country is that it's privatized.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah. That's like my biggest thing is that the healthcare should be free. But I think that my work on the Sober Living and recovery task force, like, things that I'm working towards there that I advocate for are like, one, I want the human trafficking law in California to be amended so that it recognizes body brokering, so that people who are being body brokered can actually access those resources if they need to or want to. Because I remember at one point I was really telling my ex girlfriend like, you should try to gain access to these services. And then I realized that she wouldn't even be able to even if she did, because of, you know, how nonprofits are supposed to help certain people, because.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

She wouldn't be considered a trafficking victim.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

A trafficking victim. Right, right, right.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And so you think that these people, because they do get stuck in the rehab shuffle. And when you've been an addict for so long, you don't really have a home to go back to, a family that's waiting for you, you don't have a job. So it's either becoming homeless and being out on the streets or having a place that maybe is profiting out of you and exploiting you. But at least it's a home with a shelter, right?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah, exactly. And there's people around you, and there's always this constant manipulation going on where somebody takes you in and they're like, oh, I care about you. I really like. And then it's like an abusive relationship over and over and over again where the owner betrays you and they lie to your face. And it's very, like, interpersonal more than people realize. And that's like something I really focus on in my book is like. Like one how, like, all of us know each other.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Wait, you're right. You're talking about your book as if people knew it that way. Okay, so tell me, you wrote a book, right?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yes, I did. I did. I wrote a book. It's called Brokered A Year Inside the Web of Patient Brokering. And I kind of just go month by month and I kind of talk about how I started to figure things out for myself. Because it's almost kind of like a mystery, right? Like, you're talking to people. You hear a chunk from over here, you hear a chunk from over there, you hear a chunk over here. All of a sudden, things start in your own head, putting together, like, puzzle pieces. And so especially, like, knowing everyone like you're at one place and you think you might not ever see this person again. A month later, you see them again, and it's like, LA is huge. So it feels. The first couple times it happens, it feels like, whoa. So I was really trying to convince my ex, like, okay, I don't want to keep going from sober living to sober living to sober living. This is not helpful. This is a cycle. Like, I'm a pattern recognition person, obviously. So I was like, we are in a cycle. Like, we are in a pattern where we go somewhere, we get into some minor argument, and then they try to force us to go to detox or we get drugged or, like, there's always something that happens to where they want us to go to detox. Like, you know, whatever it is, it was a cycle where we would go, because, you know, my ex would be like, well, maybe we need some time to, like, reset. But I just couldn't do it anymore. I was like, look, it was getting towards fall. I was like, I really want to start school. I feel like my life is passing me by. I'm 25 years old. I felt an immense pressure to get out and do this. And also, I had lived on my own for years. I've lived on my own for years and years. So I was like, I can't live like this. So I ended up really confiding in my mom, and it really came to a head because she wanted me. We started looking at places, and then my ex, like, we got into a fight, basically, and over this, because I said, you know, I'm not gonna go to one more sober living. I'm not gonna do it anymore. I. If I leave this hotel room, it's gonna be to an apartment or a room that I'm renting. She was so mad at me because she was, like, saying I was, like, abandoning her and that I thought I was better than her and, like, all this stuff. And she, like, almost killed me that night. Like, genuinely, like, I saw all this blood on the floor. I left the hotel room that we were in with, like, no clothes on, almost.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Was she on drugs?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yes. Yeah, she got really violent when she took, like, Xanax and stuff. Like, really. Just really violent. And so it was. It was like that I had stitches all up my face. I had staples in the back of my head. Like, it was super bad. And I called my mom, and my mom's like, I'm gonna fly you home. I went and I flew home to Montana for, like, two weeks. My mom's a nurse, so she, like, took care of me. Cause I really needed it. I don't know how I could have, like, you know, dealt with all that. Like, a staple in the back of my head. I can't even see it, you know? And so I went home for two weeks. And then when I came back, my mom got me an apartment in South Central. And she said, get a job and finish registering for school. And then that was kind of like.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Yeah, you were lucky because you did have family.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

I was very lucky.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

You had a mother that still wanted to help you.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

And that's why that's not the case.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

For so Many of us, other people who went through the drug addiction.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah, it's not. And that's why I'm such a proponent for give these people housing. Like, a lot of these people qualify for interim housing already. Like, they would qualify, like, no problem because they have mental health issues or they have addiction problems or whatever. That's, like, what gets you into interim housing, but they don't know about it.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Your mom got you a house. You enrolled in school, right?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Right away, yeah. And then I started in spring 2024. Great. And then my first semester, I started. I founded Indigenous Scholars, which is the first native student organization at Santa Monic College. Now I run one of the biggest clubs on campus. It's very.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

How many people?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Our Instagram has like 300 something followers, so probably around like 100 ish native students. And.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And what do you guys do?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

We, like, connect with culture. We do. We do a lot of, like.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And this didn't exist before you joined the school?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

That's crazy. No, we also do, like, a lot of. How do I say it? Like, institutional change. Like, we. We instituted the first Native American Heritage Month last year. We got $8,000. And it's completely planned by me and my team. And, like, the school just gives us what we need. Last year, I secured $8,000. I think almost close to 10, including all the departments. And then this year, we're gonna secure close to like, 15,000.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And you do what with that money?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Native American Heritage Month. So we have, like, book talks this year. We're gonna have Shannon Speed from UCLA come. Ucla, Kyle Mays.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And it's open to all students, right?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yes, yeah, open to all the students. Because there really wasn't a lot of, like, education in general. People are really interested to learn more about Native people, our culture.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

When you're doing all of this at school and when you enrolled in school, when you started making friends, did you tell them about what you had just gone through?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Sometimes it was really weird because. And it's still really weird today because I exist in this alter universe. Alter. Yes, I do. I do. Because a lot of people see me, and especially. Cause I go to a transfer school. A lot of people look up to me. Now I have 3.9. I serve on two government task forces. I do research.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

What are the government task forces that you're involved in?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

So I was appointed to the Santa Monica Land Back and Reparations Task force. I'm the youngest member of that. And then also I serve on the Historical Research subcommittee, the Community Education and Events Subcommittee, and Then also sometimes financial, fundraising and messaging committee.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

That's great. I mean, It's a whole 180 from your life before. It really is in the space of like a year or two years. It's crazy.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah, it's really crazy. And the other one was. Is the California Sober Living and Recovery Task Force, which I met Mayor Amezukua when I was testifying in Congress, and she invited me to that one.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And how many. What does that involve?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

That one is all lawmakers in California law enforcement, basically everyone who has stakes in body brokering, insurance people.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Is it a meeting? Is it a weekly meeting?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

And then it happens about once a month or once every a month and a half.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Okay.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

And it's. I know there's over 100 or 200.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Lawmakers and they're discussing the problems within the rehab centers here in California and how. Trying to figure out how to make it better. Well, that's good. I mean, that's hopeful like that there's actually. The government is actually trying to make this better.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah, it does make me hopeful because I feel like when I first escaped, I really didn't feel like anyone cared, you know? And I'm also one of the main. The only victims that they talk to. They don't talk to any victims.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

They hold on to the only victim they speak to.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Pretty much. Yeah. From what I know, there's like a lot of parents, but a lot of parents are very disconnected. Like, I. I understand their pain, but I. I don't think that parents should be the face of body brokering because they really don't know what they're talking about. They have no idea what the scheme is.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Right. And the problem with speaking to some of the victims is that sometimes they're still inside these. These. The shuffle. Right. And so it makes it hard. And so you wrote a book over the summer.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

In the middle of all this insanity and how busy you are with all your schoolwork and the committees that you were part of, you decided you wanted to write a book. And it's. Remind us again what the name of the book is and where it's available.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

So my book is called Brokered A Year Inside the Web of Patient Brokering. It's available on Amazon. It's for pre sale right now. So the Official launch is January 22nd.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And what are you hoping to get with the book?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

I just want people to understand, like, our human side as people. You know, I think a lot of people reduce us to addicts or they reduce us to criminals or both.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Right. Junkies Junkies or even just why should we spend money?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Right. Or they blame us about what happened to us. Like, oh, you. Like there's people who say that they're proponents against body brokering, but they tear apart everything that I say. Right. They say that I'm this or that. But it's. You have to ask yourself, do you really care about body brokering victims? You know what I mean? Because none of us are perfect. There's no such thing as a perfect victim. And I think that's like what I want to talk about.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And also basically humanizing people that are in the drug addiction.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah. And talking about how interconnected we were in this scheme. Like, that's why I called it the web of patient brokering. Because everyone is connected. Like people who you might think don't know each other, you might know someone and you might never have been in a rehab with them, but they took your bed after you left it and they slept in the same bed that you've slept in. So we're so much more connected than we even realize. Being brokered by the same people, being at the same houses, people date in this scheme, people. I mean, I fell in love with my ex girlfriend in this scheme. There was so much going on and it's so weird because I wanted nothing more than to just live a normal life. And now I'm like living the opposite of that where I have like a lot of stuff going on. And so it's weird. It's a very big shift. Like sometimes I'm like, how did I get here? Because I really just wanted to go to school and I really wasn't planning on being like a star student of the whole school or advocate or anything. I just, I wanted to go to school and I wanted to transfer to ucla. And now UCLA is low key, a safe school for me, you know, and that's only been, it's only been since spring 2024 and.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And you've been sober for how long now?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

I don't even know, like over a year. I really don't count these days because I just never think about it. Like there has not been one time in the past, like since I started school where I was like, oh, I want to go like get high. In fact, I'm like almost adverse to it now. Yeah.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

I think that you're unfortunately very much the exception where for you it ended up well and hopefully it will continue well for you. But for a lot of people it's a real struggle and it is. The problem is that for a lot of People, it ends in tragedy. Right. It ends with overdoses. And. And I think what I. The idea that I keep thinking about is that you might think, okay, giving people some weed so they can test dirty to go to their detox program is horrible.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

And typically, people use more than weed, too, because they want to make it worth it.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

People, actually, and this is something we heard again and again, is that there have been many, many cases of people actually overdosing. They do. And sometimes they go through detox because they were incentivized to go through detox. And then they come out, they. They go back to doing whatever drug they did, and they die. And that is. That's blood on the hands of many of these providers, in my mind. Yeah.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

And I actually really thank you for bringing this up, because this is one of the reasons I started speaking out, because when I got invited to testify in Congress, which was this spring, I really didn't talk about body brokering until then.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Like, wait, you were invited to testify in Congress? I didn't even know this.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

You didn't know this? No.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Can you tell me about that?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah. So I testified in Congress. I believe it was April. It was right before I got on the land back and reparations. It was right around the same time I got on the task force. So I had, like, a lot happening. Like, I was like, wow. So Senator Tom Umberg's team called me, and they were like, hey. Like, actually, I think they contacted someone else first. And then they had gotten my number, and he was like, would you be willing to come do this? And it was funny because in my head, I'm like, I'm literally one of the only people that can do this.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And what were they asking you to do? To come and testify for.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Come testify in Congress about what? About a bill. I think it was SB35 was the first one I went to, and then the Second one was SB42. And then there was another one, but that was another couple who had testified for that bill.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

But this was about the rehab industry.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Yeah. Oh, wow. So you went and you gave your. You told them what happened to you and your thoughts on body brokering and your rehab industry.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

And what's really interesting is that the California Sober Living Recovery Task Force said that they had to convince senators and lawmakers that this was even a thing. So my testimony was really helpful in just being like, yes, this is a thing. It's very common. It exploits people's bodies for profit. Your health is a threat to them. They will make sure that you are not healthy or happy or whatever, they will actively discourage you from getting a job or going to school or things like that.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

And it's bad for all of us.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

At the end of the day because even if you think, who cares? They're just junkies, unfortunately, that's how many people think the problem is. Obviously you're not. You're a human being a lot of times. Ends in tragedy. And at the end of the day, it affects all of us. If health insurance. If there's massive health insurance fraud and Medicare fraud, it's the price of all our health that go. Or health insurance that goes up. Basically, yeah.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

You know who actually is the biggest people who contribute on the Sober Living Recovery Task Force is the neighbors, because they actually have to deal with this stuff. And at first, like, I was like, oh, these neighbors, whatever. Like, I rolled my eyes. And I still do sometimes because they make themselves the victim. But I understand. I do. I understand that living next to something like that chaotic is traumatic, like, in its own way, because you own a home, you've been successful in your life, and then now you're having to witness this, and it's like, it's very difficult. So they've done a lot of work to, like, center victims, but I've really helped them with that. Like the. The SAS LAR Task Force. Like, you know, just so you know, like, the people who are really suffering here, the people. And I also remind them also, like, we went to rehab to get clean. Like, you Even if you do think that we're just like, stupid addicts. Like, we came here because we wanted to get clean at one point.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

We're trying.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah, we tried. And, you know, it's not really most of our fault that we got tied up in this, but that was. That was the main reason I. Yeah.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

I think we need more people like you. I mean, this is not easy, obviously. I mean, it's also not super safe sometimes to talk at, to speak out about people that are making millions of dollars.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

And people always say that to me. They're like, aren't you scared to die? I'll be like, not really anymore. I mean, I'm the type of person, you could shoot me, like, five times. I'm probably going to get up, to be honest. Like, that's just my life, like, so.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Anyway, so I do think there should be more people like you, and I think you're unfortunately a rare example. And hopefully you'll be inspiration for many people out there who are struggling and they'll listen to your story and they'll find a way of, she did it. Maybe I can do it, too. And you can become, you know, even with bad years and terrible experiences in your life, you can become inspirational for somebody and an example of how you can come out the other way.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah. And it's not just. I think we always talk about ptsd, but I think this whole journey has taught me. I didn't even know that post traumatic growth was a thing, and one of my professors kind of told me about that the other day, and I was.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Like, what does that mean?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Wow. I think that it means that you've had a lot of trauma in your life, and then it's made you grow, like, in a weird way, like, you have ptsd, but you also have these, like, superpower post traumatic growth.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

I like that a lot.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah. I didn't know that it was a thing, really. I was. Because I couldn't describe what had happened to me. I couldn't describe it because now my life is so different. Even my mindset and stuff like that, and the reason why I got involved in it and I'm not scared of my life ending. I mean, you know, whatever. Is because there is a lot of people that have died. And you're right about that. And that makes me feel sometimes a lot of survivor's guilt.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Oh, I'm sorry, Sequoia. I'm sorry.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

But because there were people you knew personally.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

A lot of people that I knew personally that are gone and, like, friends.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Who are in these treatment centers with you.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And who. So many people died from overdoses.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

So many people. Yeah. One of the things I said at Congress was death was normal. You were routinely losing people that you knew. Almost every week, my ex. Girlfriend would say, this person died. This person passed away, you know, and it would be people. Sometimes I knew them, sometimes I didn't. But you just kind of start getting used to it. Like the other day on the train, I was going to. To school, to a meeting, and behind me I heard a loud bang. Somebody hit the floor, and I turned around, and it was a man who had fell out, like he was. And I just. It was. It was so upsetting. I remember just, like, crying before my. Before I went to school, because that could be me. You know what I mean?

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Like, it could have been you.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah, it could have been. And I've been really lucky.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

We were coming to an end. But I'd like you to explain the idea of survivor's guilt. Like, what do you. What does that mean for you?

[Sequoia Thiessen]

I think, like, knowing that I was able to leave and so many people just aren't. Like, they don't have the family support, sometimes they don't even have the community support, or like, they don't have the knowledge of resources around them. And some of it is just apathetic for your life.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Yeah. And sometimes it's just luck. It's just meeting somebody that feel like.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

I've been very lucky.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Right.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

My first professor at SMC, his name was Dr. Driscoll. Shout out Dr. D. He changed my life. Like, he's been like my mentor ever since then. And so I think about the people lost a lot. Like, especially when I'm on the train. And there's always reminders of. Of it. And I just try to think about what I can do to use my position that I have now to advocate for those people.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And you're doing that. I mean, you're doing everything you can possibly, and that is pretty special.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Thank you.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Thank you.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

I'm trying.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for everything you do. Thank you for coming on the podcast.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Thank you.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

And I can't wait to see what happens next with you. I'm sure there's lots of good things happening.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yes. I'm transferring this year, so good luck with that. Thank you.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Ucla. You should get this girl.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Yeah. Or hopefully like Stanford or Berkeley or something.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Shooting real big. You're shooting big. I like it.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

I like it.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Awesome.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Well, thank you so much, Sequoia.

[Sequoia Thiessen]

Thank you, Mariana.

[Unknown Prisoner]

When I was there, you had to have a knife. One of you's got to take turns carrying it up your rectum.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

Wait, it's up your butt.

[Unknown Prisoner]

That's the prison wallet. You'll never leave home without.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

You have something protected around it, I'm assuming.

[Unknown Prisoner]

Yeah. Or else you'll be bleeding out your Kulo.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

I'm Ariana Van Zeller, and after reporting on black markets for my Emmy winning National Geographic show, Trafficked, I'm launching a podcast.

[Interviewer (Possibly Mariana Van Zeller)]

You're getting emotional on me.

[Mariana Van Zeller]

Intimate conversations with those operating in the shadows. The Hidden Third is out now with new episodes every Wednesday. [e-mail] mariannavanzeller Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.