Felon at 7, Reborn in Solitary

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Felon at 7, Reborn in Solitary"

Podcast: The Hidden Third
Host: Mariana van Zeller
Guest: Sunny Von Cleveland
Date: March 11, 2026

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Overview

This episode of The Hidden Third delves into the life story of Sunny Von Cleveland, a man whose childhood abuse, early criminalization, and years in the prison system ultimately transformed him into an advocate for at-risk youth. Host Mariana van Zeller guides Sunny through his harrowing journey—from being abused starting at the age of three, first arrested at seven, and spending much of his youth and adulthood incarcerated, to the pivotal moment in solitary confinement that set him on a path of healing and redemption. Sunny now works to prevent cycles of abuse and crime, mentoring incarcerated youth and spreading a message of forgiveness and self-worth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Childhood Trauma and Normalization of Abuse

• Sunny’s earliest memories: Sunny recounts being sexually abused by multiple men starting at age three, with the abuse normalized and secreted within his family.
  • "I was being abused so often that I normalized it, right? So that I felt like I was having a normal childhood almost." (04:20)
• Family's response: When initially disclosed, his family’s response was inadequate and facilitated further abuse.
• Impact on personality: Became both reclusive and outgoing to avoid further harm—using humor as a coping mechanism.

2. Early Encounters with the Criminal Justice System

• First arrest at age 7: Arrested for breaking into a church—charged with felonies, placed on probation.
  • “I got arrested when I was seven years old for breaking into a church in 1988. And it still baffles me to this day how you charge a seven year old with a felony.” (07:11)
• Cycle of self-protection: Noted that probation halted abuse, leading to repeated petty crimes as a self-protection mechanism.
  • “In my mind, I just found a way to protect myself.” (11:00)

3. Family Breakdown and Entrenchment in Crime

• Family splits after disclosure: After reporting his uncle’s abuse, the family dynamic is shattered; he’s blamed and scapegoated.
  • “My whole family was destroyed, it was torn apart and it was my fault.” (13:17)
• Further victimization: More abusers enter his life, and trust in adults and the world is fundamentally broken.

4. Escalation: Violence, Gangs, and Prison Life

• Adolescence: Sunny describes escalating substance use, violence, and involvement in crime.
• First adult incarceration at 16: Sentenced after a series of thefts and break-ins, introduced to prison culture of violence and gangs.
  • “I’m this long-haired kid from the country, man. I don’t know anything about...This is my first time ever being locked up and I’m in county jail.” (28:59)
• Prison rape and survival: Endures rape in prison, then retaliates violently for respect and protection.
  • “I just lost it. I started stabbing this guy in the face...everything just kind of calmed down, you know, my brain’s going nuts. But they never came back.” (32:47)

5. Cycle of Release and Re-incarceration

• Difficulty reintegrating: Immediate relapse into crime upon release, driven by survival instincts and lacking any sense of rehabilitation.
  • “I came out of prison with the goal of trying to be the next Scarface. Like, I’m going to be the best gangster I can be.” (47:03)
• Further family collapse: Compromised relationships, betrayals by family members, and repeated violence lead to deeper despair.
• Recognition of generational and systemic failures: The criminal justice system is depicted as incentivizing recidivism, not rehabilitation.

6. Pivotal Transformation in Solitary Confinement

• Meeting “Mallory": In solitary, “Mallory” (name changed for his protection) becomes a mentor, challenging Sunny to examine his anger, pain, and choices.
  • "You're a very angry young man...that's why you're mad. And mad is a surface emotion, and it's temporary. And anger is something much different." (62:05)
• Viktor Frankl’s ‘Man’s Search for Meaning’: Sunny is deeply affected by this book, shifting from victimhood to searching for purpose in suffering.
  • “Suffering ceases to be suffering the moment you give it a meaning, right? Such is the purpose of sacrifice.” (65:37)
• Writing forgiveness letters: Begins writing remorseful, honest letters seeking forgiveness for harm caused, as a path to healing.
  • “I will live every day for the rest of my life trying to be the best, best form of a human being I can so that you know that the harm that I have caused you is not in vain.” (78:00)

7. Life After Prison: Redemption and Advocacy

• Post-release transformation: After leaving prison, Sunny focuses on music, online content creation, and eventually, direct advocacy.
• Newfound purpose: Finds meaning in helping at-risk youth, juvenile inmates, and survivors of trafficking and abuse.
• Collaboration with law enforcement: Works with Operation Lightshine to find and rescue abused kids; presents “The Cop and the Convict” with ex-Homeland Security founder Jim Cole.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Abuse and Family Breakdown

• “Who accuses a 10 year old of enticing an adult?” (13:22, Sunny)
• “I developed this, I’m not going to tell on people. I’ll just suffer in silence and I’ll deal with it.” (15:45, Sunny)

On Prison Violence and Survival

• “And I just found that stabbing people just became so easy for me...that’s what I started to do.” (37:18, Sunny)
• “This place is ran by COs that either failed at being real corrections officers, failed at being military or police officers. A lot of them were gas station workers or the girl that worked at Subway.” (38:48, Sunny, describing the private youth prison)

On Redemption Through Suffering

• “Suffering ceases to be suffering the moment you give it a meaning, right? Such is the purpose of sacrifice.” (65:37, Viktor Frankl via Sunny)
• “If you make empathy the default, yes. The game changes.” (92:02, Sunny)

On Healing and Helping Others

• “I just started to write these letters and then...I’m pouring my soul into these letters...I will live every day of my life being the best version of myself so that you know the harm I have caused you is not in vain.” (78:00, Sunny)
• “What we have been through does not define us. Right? What has happened to us and what we have done does not define who we are. We can turn around at any moment and just start living a better life and reset this clock.” (79:45, Sunny)
• “Your life still has value. You still have worth...it’s only wasted if you decide that you don’t, and then you throw it away.” (80:10, Sunny)

On Systemic Failure and Hope

• "It shouldn't be up to one man in solitary confinement having this type of impact in a person's life." (81:00, Mariana)
• “If you immediately see somebody and be like, I wonder what that person has gone through that's led them to this moment...you're automatically going to be in more of a mindset to want to help that person.” (92:02, Sunny)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:30 – Introduction of Sunny’s story by Mariana
• 03:01 – Confirms abuse started at age 3
• 07:11 – First felony arrest at age 7
• 10:25 – Realization: probation stops abuse, more crime ensues
• 13:26 – Family splits after uncle’s arrest for abuse
• 22:11 – Last instance of abuse, onset of self-destruction
• 29:51 – First experience in adult prison
• 31:00 – Rape and immediate retaliation for self-protection
• 37:41 – Discussion of prison gangs and escalation of violence
• 44:23 – Commentary on the lack of rehabilitation in prison system
• 59:27 – Sunny receives maximum administrative segregation sentence; prolonged solitary
• 65:37 – Revelation from Viktor Frankl’s teaching: suffering and meaning
• 73:01 – Writing forgiveness letters and beginning of self-forgiveness
• 81:36 – Transition to advocacy and mentoring; post-prison work
• 90:13 – Collaboration with law enforcement in anti-trafficking
• 92:02 – Empathy as the path forward

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Tone and Language

Sunny’s language is candid, unflinching, and often raw, balancing descriptions of trauma, violence, and systemic failure with moments of hope, humor, and self-reflection. Mariana creates a supportive but probing atmosphere, drawing out honest and difficult insights.

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Conclusion

Felon at 7, Reborn in Solitary is a compelling journey through the harsh realities of abuse, early criminalization, and prison violence, culminating in hard-won redemption and advocacy. Sunny Von Cleveland's story is a testament to the transformative power of human connection, the search for meaning in suffering, and the enduring potential for personal change—even in the darkest of places. The episode urges listeners to challenge assumptions about crime and punishment, and to consider the role of empathy, forgiveness, and systemic reform in breaking cycles of harm.

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Book plug: "Hey White Boy: Conversations of Redemption" by Sunny Von Cleveland
Sunny’s work: Mentoring incarcerated youth, public speaking, collaboration with anti-trafficking organizations
Contact/info: See Operation Lightshine and Sunny’s social media for further resources.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

But the first thing he does is hand me a knife and says, that's the opposition. You want to join? You got to go put in work. Walked right over, and I just stabbed somebody. Yeah. And I just found that stabbing people just became so easy for me, like. And that's what I started to do.

[A]

Okay, so my guest today is Sunny Von Cleveland sun was sexually abused as a child, which led to anger and rebellion. He was first arrested at seven years old, and by 16, he was in prison, spending 18 years behind bars. But it's what happened in solitary confinement that changed everything for him. Since his release, he's turned his pain into purpose. He works with at risk youth in juvenile facilities across Southern California. He's also written an amazing book called hey, White Conversations of Redemption. I am so happy to have you here today, Sunny. Welcome to the Hidden Third.

[B]

Thank you so much for having me. Absolute pleasure.

[A]

So I started seeing your face and your messages and your parts, little bits about little parts about your life on social media. And the first one actually didn't have your name. The first video I saw of you talking, but I became so obsessed with what you were saying in that video. So I immediately DMed the person that had posted it and said, please give me a name. Who is this guy? I have to meet him, and I have to have him on the podcast. And it took him some time, but he got back to me. And so as soon as I got a name, I reached out to you, and I'm so happy you're here.

[B]

I'm so glad you did. You know, I've suddenly developed a pretty good Portuguese following from Portugal, because I

[A]

told you before we started that this was a Portuguese person.

[B]

Yeah. I'm like, I don't know how that happened, but I'm so grateful that it did. If we can get into more markets, more countries, more areas, and spread the message of healing and hope and love and kindness and compassion like you could, one voice can really make a huge difference, right?

[A]

Yeah, you are Your. Your whole story is so inspirational. I think it really resonates with a lot of people. So, okay, let me start with a little bit of growing up before all the problems started. How was that?

[B]

You know, I. I don't really. From my perspective, my childhood was normal outside of the abuse, right. So I started to be abused when I was three.

[A]

Oh, wow, that's so young.

[B]

And I thought it was when I was five, but apparently my mother had confirmed that my uncle started abusing me when I was three. And their solution to that was, they'll get him mental health counseling. And then I'm not allowed upstairs anymore at grandma's house. Which baffles me why that would be your approach. Because then he was able to abuse me for seven more years.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

In the same house.

[A]

So you guys all lived together or you would go to your grandma's house?

[B]

So we lived in Carson City, and my grandma lived in a town called Middleton, which is about eight, nine miles away. And we would go there all the time. Every holiday, you know, several times a week, we would go there. And most of the time it was a normal, you know, go to grandma's house, get cookies, go out and play in the yard, get yelled at by grandpa for going in the garden. Very typical things. Very small town America. But I remember around 5 years old that I also started being abused by Daryl Hall. Not from Hall Notes, my mom's boy. I didn't even know that was the guy's name, But Daryl hall was one of my mother's boyfriends, and then her friend Tim Klinger as well. And for me, I think there's like, this pedophile ring that exists in Michigan. Because how. How do you all know that this little boy can be abused? Right? Unless there's like a big beaming thing on my forehead. And so I was being abused so often that I normalized it, right? So that I felt like I was having a normal childhood almost. But there's, you know, three, four times a week, I'm being abused by these men.

[A]

Oh, that. That many times.

[B]

A lot. So, like, we would go to grandma's at least once a week. And every time we go, my Uncle Mike's gonna show me this Atari. I. I love the Atari game. I thought, you know, the video game was amazing. And that's when he would abuse me, is when I'm playing the video game. And then, you know, we would go over to Tim Klinger's house. My mom was best friends with his girlfriend. And then they would go off and I'm just there alone with Tim and his infant son. And Tim would abuse me there. And then back home we live with Daryl hall, right. And he's the abuser that's in the home. And so I'm being abused by him. And it just, I normalized it. Right. So I was this very gregarious, outgoing kid that really wanted to make people laugh. And I think that that probably comes from a place of being abused. Like, if I can make you laugh and smile, you'll be in a good mood and you won't want to abuse me. That was, that became the, the whole course of my childhood. Right.

[A]

Did you realize immediately that that was what was happening? That it was abuse?

[B]

No. I mean, as that young, I had no idea. Right. You know that it's not. Right. Primarily because of the threats that are coming from the abuser. Like, don't tell anybody. This is our. Don't. I'll have to hurt the whole family. I'll, you know, these threats then make me realize, well, something's wrong. This is, you know, and, and clearly it hurts. It's painful, right? Like I was being raped by these men. Like this is painful. And you know, you just go into this shell, right? Where as this kid and, and I just, I kept it to myself. I didn't want to hurt people. I was a very compassionate and empathetic kid. I didn't want other people to get in trouble. I didn't want people to be hurt. I thought that this was something that I obviously did, that this was my fault. I was complicit in this and I was this bad kid. And, and so that became. It took me from this really outgoing kid that wanted to make people smile and turn me into this very reclusive abused child. Right. That this dichotomy that exists in my brain where I want to be happy, I want to be outgoing and funny, but I'm so terrified of somebody finding out of getting into trouble, of hurting somebody, that I'm just going to recluse into my shell. So, I mean, most of my time was spent in a closet with my mom's tapes, listening to music. Then that was my escape.

[A]

And then when did you first tell somebody?

[B]

I. The first time I spoke up. So I got arrested when I was seven years old for breaking into a church in 1988. And it still baffles me to this day how you charge a seven year old with a felony.

[A]

That is so crazy. So what, tell me what happened that day, as much as you can remember.

[B]

Yeah, I actually went there recently with my wife to the church. And the church is still there. I went to the same very window that we broke into. So my brother and I, we were this. We live right behind the high school in Carson City, and on the other side of that is St. Mary's Cathedral. And so we would always come over and play in the dugouts, the baseball dugouts. And while we were over there, one day, we saw these kids out in the. The grassy area. They were having a. Just a great time. We were not allowed to partake in that because we're not Catholic. And so when they were done, we saw them all going into the basement and taking all the stuff in the basement. We're like, well, we want some of that. And I'm seven at the time. My brother's eight. And so we went over to the. The window, and it's one of those windows that kind of pull open, right? And so. But it was stuck. My brother kicked it and it broke. And we're like. So we crawled in the window, went inside, and we, like, took a blanket and put a bunch of pudding cups and some playing cards, some other little things in it and snuck back out the window and went straight across the street in the dugout, laid the blanket out. We were playing with the cards and eating the pudding. And I mean, 15 minutes later or so, here comes cops. Like, we were not slick. Obviously, we're seven. We don't have criminal capacity. We're not trying to get away with something. And they put us in handcuffs, put us in the back of the car and just drove us up the block to our house and dropped us off. And a couple months later, I'm in. I'm in court in front of Edward L. Skinner, who's still alive. I just found out that that judge is still alive. Yeah. And we were charged with larceny from a building and breaking and entering and their felonies. And I was given 60 days probation. And so what happened in that moment was I got put on probation. All the abuse stopped. Like, we didn't go to my grandma's house. We didn't go to Tim Klinger's house. Daryl hall took off. Didn't even see the guy. Like, my mom's boyfriends were very shoddy, alcoholic drug addicts. He's gone, and I'm not being abused. And so at that young age, like, you don't even know what probation means. It's just a word, right? Nothing's actually happening. And then when we got off, we're going to Grandma's house, he's off. We're off probation, Go to grandma's house. I'm abused. When we're gonna go to Tim's house a couple days later, I'm abused. So I'm like, I went and did it again. I went, stole, I think it was a pedal bike from one of the neighbors. Charged with a misdemeanor, put on probation for 30 days. Got on probation, all the abuse stopped.

[A]

Hmm. Hey, everyone. So real quick before we keep going, if you're enjoying this conversation, which I really hope you are, take a second to subscribe, like or leave a review on YouTube.com mariannavanzeller or wherever you're listening to this podcast, the Hidden Third, and share it with your friends. This show doesn't have a marketing budget behind it. It grows because of people like you. And this means everything to me. So thank you so much. Obrigada.

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[A]

Wow.

[B]

And I don't have to hurt anybody. I don't have to tell on anybody. So for the next three years, I was getting arrested and in trouble every couple months, right? And I mean, I get my butt whooped from my mom and I'm grounded. I'm on probation, but I'm safe. I'm not being abused until I'm off probation. And so I finally broke down when I was 10. There was a drive by shooting. I can't make my life up. It's nuts. Somebody, my mom had a new boyfriend. The man I called dad. His name's Al Bauer. He had some enemies. And this is small town Crystal, Michigan. And in the middle of the night, they drove out to our house in the country and started shooting into the house. And some of the bullets ricocheted into. I was sleeping on the couch and the bullets went into my back and my, you know, everybody woke up my mom screaming and crying. And for some reason in that moment, I broke down and told my mom, that my Uncle Mike is abusing me. I mean, I even trying to think back to it, I can't correlate why or when I chose that moment, but I did. We went to the hospital, she called the cops and my Uncle Mike got arrested and he was sent to prison for 15 years off the heels of that. And that was the first time that I had spoke up about it and said anything. And what happened in that moment was his threats came true, not the way that he wanted them to, but he said, if you ever tell anybody, I'll hurt the whole family. So when that happened, our whole family split. Right. We didn't go to grandma's house anymore. A lot of the family blamed me. They said I was lying, that I made this up, or the other one said that I enticed him into it. Like, who accuses a 10 year old of enticing an adult? And so as that young child, I took all that in.

[A]

How did your mom, how was she, how did she react to all of it?

[B]

Surfacely? She was very angry and very protective. Can't believe this, can't believe this. But then we're going back to grandma's house afterwards, like for the holidays, like on Thanksgiving, the whole family gets together. We go the next day when the

[A]

young, when your uncle was.

[B]

He's in prison.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

Right. But we don't even get to interact with the rest of the family. I'm literally the black sheep now. So my whole family was destroyed, it was torn apart and it was my fault.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like I caused this because I said something. So if you think I'm going to tell on any of these other guys, I'm just going to deal with it. I'm just going to endure this pain inside. I'll just keep breaking the law. That's how I'm going to get through it. Right. And so I distinctly recall when we were at grandma's house, my uncle Mike would call and they would put me on the phone with him. I don't really remember the conversations, but looking back at it, I'm like, what's wrong with you? Right. So this is why I don't talk to my mother to this day. Because while I have no proof, quite sure she trafficked me in all these situations. How does your son get abused for nine years of his life by seven different men and you don't know and they're all your friends, right? These are your friends and your family and your boyfriends and you don't know and she's a drug addict. There's no way that you don't know this. Right?

[A]

Like, what was she addicted to?

[B]

Cocaine, I believe. It's. I, I don't. I think it's crystal meth is what they made, but it might not be. They used to make it in pop bottles.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And put bags in it with filters, whatever that was. I think they called it crank back then, but that was there all the time. Snowing in July was, to me was. I had no idea what that meant then, but now I know. And then alcohol. Like my mom, she put on this great facade of I work all day, I leave the house at 6 o' clock in the morning, I don't get home till eight at night, I work my butt off. But then it turns out that you had a part time job. So you're literally like going out for a couple hours and who knows what you're doing? And so.

[A]

And can I ask you something, Sunny? I'm not.

[B]

No, go ahead.

[A]

Feel free to say you don't want to talk about it.

[B]

I talk about anything. I'm an open book.

[A]

But this is, it's. Do you know if your brother was being abused as well?

[B]

He was. So he was technically the first one that said something when we were three or when I was three, he was four. And then that's how they found out the first time when I was 3. And I don't recall that. Obviously I don't remember it, but apparently he's the first one that said something, so. But then because he said something, my Uncle Mike never abused him anymore. Right. And so I was the one that didn't speak up or say anything.

[A]

So apparently he kept going with you.

[B]

Yeah. And so I developed this. I'm not going to tell on people. I'll just suffer in silence and I'll deal with it. And this made me, in school, it made me such a target for bullies. Right. Because I developed this, this thought that if I don't wash myself, I don't take a bath, I don't brush my teeth, I'm going to stink and they're going to leave me alone and they don't care. Right. Like these abusers don't care, which just baffles me. But on the flip side of that, when I go to school, that's a target. Right. That's the smelly kid that doesn't. Right. And I'm getting. I was horribly bullied in school, beat up all the time. I had my nose broke on the school bus by a guy I'm actually friends with on Facebook now. His name's Troy Tissue. He broke my nose on our school bus. Just punched me on my nose, blood everywhere. Broke my nose. Like, I was bullied really bad in school and. But that I felt like I deserve this type of treatment, like this pain, because I'm this horribly bad kid that is engaged in all this sexual behavior with these grown men. And it just. You. You put out a clip with the guy that was on here, and he had said, sexual abuse for a young man makes it to where there is no spiritual connection with sexual activity anymore. And that comment, I was like, this is so true what this guy's saying. Right. Like, to this day, for me, it's. There's no spiritual connection. You hear people talk about you have sex and there's a spiritual connection or something, and it's always just. It's a physical thing. Right. And so it steals something from you to be abused at that age. Right. To be abused, period.

[A]

Yeah. You know, another part that was Todd we interviewed.

[B]

He's a great guy.

[A]

Amazing guy. His story is very, very, very. It's incredible and very inspirational as well. But one of the stories he says that sort of reminds me a little bit about what you were saying is that he also started being abused very early on, and it wasn't. And in his case, it was by women, actually. And then once he started with one woman, then other people started abusing him. And it was almost like there was. In his mind, it's not so much that they were talking to each other and saying, this is a great kid to abuse. It was more this idea that abusers and pedophiles, they can see a broken kid. Right. They. They can spot them. They know exactly who to target. And so that. Yeah. So reminded me a little bit about what you're saying.

[B]

I don't know that there's actually a pedophile ring where they were using snail mail back in the day to communicate, or if they had, like this. This cabal of. Of abusers. But it makes you wonder.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

[B]

It's because I don't know that. And then again, you're right. Predators have this fantastic ability to recognize and abuse kid. And. And this is something that in my work now, I teach people that it's not the homeless guy or the drug addict that. That's breaking in and raping your kids. It's always someone you know. Yeah, they come in nice. They come in kind. They come in. It's the coach. It's the pastors. They're teachers. They come in and they Earn trust.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that they can do their deeds and get away with it.

[A]

And which is why it's so hard to protect yourself, protect your kids against it.

[B]

It's so hard because you just never know who it is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's why we have to teach our kids to speak. Had I spoke up, some point, my life could have been different.

[A]

Yeah. Absolutely. Give that space to kids. Right. Start talking to them about it early on. Just let them know that it's.

[B]

It's up to parents to create.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That. That safe environment with your kid. To know that, like, especially with the sextortion thing, that kids are just killing themselves at a ridiculous rate. Because you haven't cultivated an environment where your kid feels he can come to you and say, hey, I sent this nude of myself to this person in doing that is not the end of the world. Sending a nude to somebody's not the end of the world.

[A]

There's just so much shame around sex in general, which is something that everybody's going to experience at some point in their lives. It should just be a natural conversation that you're allowed to have with your parents. In fact, you should have that conversation with your parents.

[B]

I've done everything in my life to cultivate. You met my son. My son will tell me anything that has ever. If something's wrong. And like, if you do something wrong, call me, Dad, I screwed up. I made a mistake. Call me. Would rather do that than you feel like you can't talk to me. And then you internalize this pain and this trauma and you just feel like it's too much to handle.

[A]

And that's when it comes to sex, when it comes to drugs, when it comes to mistakes, whatever it is, you just have to have that space and give those. Your kid space to talk. I have the same relationship with my son.

[B]

So important.

[A]

Okay, so then this was you at 10. You told your mother you felt like you'd broken up your whole family. Everybody was blaming you. You. The message was loud and clear. I'm not going to do this again. I'm not going to tell on anyone again.

[B]

Yeah. And so then it this old man, which. This is the first time I've ever really talked about this. Really. This old man used to drive this blue Chevy S10 in our town. So I would be like, at the arcade. I got lost in video games. It was kind of another escape for me. And again, they're really good at being predators. Worked his way in. But this guy would pick me up in his truck starting. I think I was about 10 and a half, 11 years old, would pick me up in his S10 and would let me drive the S10, let me drive the truck and we'd go out somewhere out into the woods and he would abuse me and then give me money afterwards. So he never threatened me. He was just, here's that. And like he, he surreptitiously threatened you with kindness, right? So that now you don't want to tell on this guy, right? And even to the point where my mother knew him, right? Like, and this is how they work themselves in. And so this kept going on until I was, I think the last time I was abused it was. I was almost 13 years old. I was 12 and a half, almost 13. And I had hit this amazing growth spurt right where I, I went from this, you know, a typical 12 year old. So I was, I think I was 6, 4 when I was 13 years old, just up there, right? And a mustache started coming in. And so I started my, I was, I started hanging out with people that were older than me, much older, like 19, 20, 21 year olds. And I really grew up at 13, started drinking, started having sex willingly now with, with women. And, and there's this just this dichotomy that exists in your brain. Like I'm so lost at this point. My brother was taken away when I was 12, put into a juvenile facility and then he escaped and stole a cop car and he's done. Right. I didn't see my brother again until I was 21.

[A]

And there's no father in the picture at this point?

[B]

No. I met my dad a few times in my life when I was young. Fun fact. My wife found him a couple years ago and now we have a pretty good relationship to where my son even knows him and talks to him and.

[A]

But he abandoned you guys at a.

[B]

And I mean, this guy's got nine kids, like four different mothers and all over. So I mean, you know, I have three kids with three different women in three different areas of the country myself. And I, I don't obviously condone that. I do my best to have relationship with all of my kids, as you can see, but I kind of can understand and empathize how difficult it must be to have all these kids and try to give them attention. So you're just going to kind of pick which one is going to work best for your life. So I just kind of got over that and just kind of forgave. My father is one of the most important people in my life because you have shown me Everything not to be. Even though I love him and I forgive him, you've still shown me what not to be in my life, how to be a better father. And I think that I've applied that to my kids, even though, like, I was in prison the first 12 years of their life. And so I've done my best. And it's not easy. You know, I lived in Ohio, my son lived in Phoenix, and my other son lived in Michigan. It's not easy, easy to develop that relationship over long distance. So I never tried to come in and be like, I'm your dad. You have to listen to me. Like, I came in to just to let you know that I love you, you mean the world to me and I'm here for you. And like, that's the best that I'm going to be able to do. I can't do something I'm not capable of doing.

[A]

Was your dad in prison too?

[B]

No.

[A]

Never. Never.

[B]

My dad's a Marine. Retired Marine.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Nope.

[A]

He just wasn't there, sort of an example for you.

[B]

I guess he was just overwhelmed.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And so I kept at the. When that stopped. The last time that it really happened to me, I was raped by a guy named Robbie. And it was violent. And after that I was just like, I just don't trust anybody, period anymore. Like, I can't have this in my life. And I really got into drugs and alcohol and I say drugs like I was 13, weed. I got into smoking a lot of weed, like copious amounts of it. And then drinking a lot. And so as I'm 13, 14 years old, I'm just. I'm lost, I'm angry. I break the law all the time. I'm a kleptomaniac. If I walk into a store, I'm stealing something. And it's not at this point not to get caught, to protect myself. It's just. It's become part of who I am. And like, I do it subconsciously and don't even think about it. Like, I come out like, oh, I stole that. Right? And drugs, alcohol, sex, this. My mother ends up losing our home when I was 14 or 14 and a half, almost 15. And she's homeless and I'm like couch surfing on friends couches and a buddy of mine named Tim, one night we were outside Carson City and we were drinking and getting high and started to walk into town probably four or five miles. And we're walking down this old country road and we see this trailer and there's a bunch of pedal bikes in the yard. We're like, dude, let's steal a pedal bike. We'll ride into town. I'm not walking all this way. So we go and we're like, well, doesn't look like anybody's here. Let's go in the house. So we went in the house, doors unlocked, walk in, grab some water, and left and grabbed a couple of pedal bikes, went into town. When we got into town, we started to go to. We went to the hospital and started going through cars in the hospital parking lot, found cigarettes, and he found a cell phone. We're making phone calls on this cell phone. And this is 1997. So, you know, it's the old Motorola flip phones. So we stop at a gas station. Here comes two cops. Pull in, hands up, hands up. I'm like, we're looking for two guys on bikes, blah, blah. I was like, I just saw two guys go that way on bikes. And thinking that I was slick, I took the cell phone out of my pocket and I tried to drop it on the ground right in front of the cop. Thinking I was smooth. Immediately puts me in handcuffs. They arrest both of us, take us down to jail. And while I'm in the jail, while I'm sitting in this cell, this holding cell waiting, I start chipping the wall, chipping my name in the wall. They come in and they arrest me for that. They're like, that's destruction. You can't do that.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I'm like, I didn't know. Look at the walls, man. It's everywhere. Ultimately, they charged me with. There was. Somebody was sleeping in that house. So I got a home invasion. First degree in the trailer was a felony in that trailer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Larceny over 100 for stealing the pedal bike because, brand new, that bike retailed for over $100. Possession of stolen property because that cell phone was over $100, and destruction of state property over a hundred dollars because the labor and the paint to fix that cell for felonies. And they said, we're done with you. We're going to bound you over to adult court. And so I had stolen a couple thousand dollars from the safe at my high school as well in Greenville. And I went in for sentencing on that. And the judge, after they bound me over to court, he said, I'm not playing with you. And sentenced me to six months in the county jail.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So my mother comes to visit me the next day and says, and you're 15. I was 15. I had just turned 16.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That was 17 days after I turned 16. July 25th, 1997. She comes in and says, I'm leaving state and I'm moving to South Carolina with Ed. I was her boyfriend at the time. And I'm like, but what do I do? I'm like, I, I, I'm in jail now and I've never been locked up. I don't know what I'm doing. She's like, you'll figure it out. I'll come back and get you in six months. So she leaves. Then they come and they sentence me for those four felonies and send me to prison. And he says, I'm going to give you 48 months. 48 to 60 months or 24 to 60 months. And the Michigan Department of Corrections. And I didn't know what that meant. I looked at my attorney, I'm like, what, what does that mean? Like, I think I'm gonna get probation or something.

[A]

Right?

[B]

He said he just sent you to prison.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I'm like, like prison, prison?

[A]

He's like, is that allowed? Were you.

[B]

So I was a, I was bound over to adult court because of stealing the money from the high school.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I'm no longer in the juvenile system. So now I'm an adult.

[A]

And, and, but that's okay as a. It was, it.

[B]

Apparently it worked for them.

[A]

Wow, that's crazy. That's so young.

[B]

It just blew my mind. Like, I mean, obviously as this young kid, I don't understand the gravity of it, but now I'm realizing like I'm about to go to prison.

[A]

Yeah, it's insane.

[B]

I'm like this, I'm this long haired kid from the country, man. I don't know anything about. This is my first time ever being locked up and I'm in county jail. I've been into a fight here and that terrified the hell out of me. Like I don't know what I'm doing here. And a couple months later, I was on the bus to quarantine in Riverside. Riverside Quarantine in Ionia, Michigan. And it was one of the most petrifying things you could ever imagine for this abused kid from the country. I walk in and it's just hallways full of rowdy, loud gang bangers, killers. People that are just, I mean, they're saying things, it's like a foreign language to me. Right. Like when they coming up and they're, they're saying things to me. Good looking out. Like, I don't, what, what, what does that mean? I don't know what that means. Like what set you from. What, What?

[A]

Wow.

[B]

What you claiming? What am I claiming? What. I don't even know what that means. What do you mean? And. And so I was lost in that first week. I'm just. I'm trying to get my bearings about me. Like, I don't know what's going on. I mean, I'm walking around again. I don't have good hygiene practices at this time, so I got long, greasy hair, and I'm just. I'm. I'm making myself a target. Right. I'm clearly a fish. I'm clearly out of water here. And then that, you know, they. They have these doors that are automatic, and they. They unlock for chow. They open them, and. And you. You know, the. The lock unlocks, and you can open the door and go to chow. And they do them for five minutes. The doors open, they close. And. Yeah, my bunky went down, and it was lunchtime, and he got out and took off, or it was dinner time, he took off for chow. And I was. I'll catch the next door. And I'm putting my shoes on, and I'm kind of bent over like this, and the door opens up, and then these two dudes come running, and this guy's got this knife that's just massive. And they grab me up by my throat and puts a knife right in my throat. And so I got this wonderful little scar in it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, puts the tip into my throat. Says, you know. Do you know what this is? If you scream, you fight, you're dead. I mean, you're just frozen in fear. Right? Like. And it was. It was bad. They raped me for about 15 minutes,

[A]

I guess, the two of them.

[B]

Yeah. And, you know, it's. This is the point where your comment section will come alive. Oh, he loved it. He wanted it. He invited it in. And. And to those people, I would have died. I would have. Until you're in that situation, what are you gonna do?

[A]

I mean, it's so obvious the knife

[B]

is already in your neck.

[A]

Of course. Yeah.

[B]

What are you gonna do? Oh, I would have had a knife when I first got there. Yeah, you would have, tough guy. Everybody's a gangster behind this keyboard. And so the crazy part is, I've been raped my whole life. Like, this is. While this is traumatic for me, like, dude, I've been abused my whole life.

[A]

It's not new. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And so when they'd left, and, I mean, I'm. I cleaned myself up and. I mean, there's blood, and. And I remember thinking to myself, if I don't do something, I am Going to be a victim this entire bit. Like, this is. It's not going to go away. And so they have these little segregation pencils. They're like golf pencils for keeping golf score. And. And I grabbed up, like, five of them and I took my shoestring off and I wrapped it around really tight. And I'm like, open the door. You know, when they come back from dinner for the last door. And I went across the hallway to one of the guys. Hey, man, I just want you to know I'm not going to say anything to anybody. Right. Just to try to throw him off. And he looked at me like. And I just lost it. I started stabbing this guy in the face. Wow.

[A]

With a pencil.

[B]

Yeah. Just. And I mean, these things aren't going to do a lot of damage, right. They're just tiny little pencils. But it's being effective, right. There's blood's coming out. It's going everywhere. He's yelling and screaming. I'm on the ground just going ham on him. And then. And as soon as that starts happening, all the inmates are like. They put up. They're putting up a wall, right? So nobody's seeing anything. We're at the way at the end of the rock here. And so then I run back into my cell. I'm like, oh, adrenaline's going crazy. And my mom and I wash my hands off. We had these cups because you didn't have bathrooms in the cell. So I water on my hands out the window, and I cleaned my hands off, and I quickly put the shoe. And you hear the keys come in. Here comes the COs, and they're all come running down. I just laying in my bunk, like, shaking, heart just beating. And then my bunky comes back, they go away. And you can hear the other guy screaming. And I don't remember verbatim what he was saying, but he was saying something like, co, he's going to get me, too. You got to get me out of here. And I don't remember exactly what he was saying, but he was yelling for the seals to come help him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so they went down and cuffed him up and they took him away. And so then my monkey comes in and said, what the hell was that? I was like, don't worry about it. It's none of your business. And that was the last thing he had said about it. And everything just kind of calmed down, you know, my brain's going nuts. But they never came back. I remember laying there like, wait, the

[A]

two guys that raped you didn't come back.

[B]

Yeah, no.

[A]

And neither did the COs to get you, I guess. Do you think that they just. Nobody talked?

[B]

Well, they put them in protective custody. I guarantee you that. Right. That's where they went. But they didn't know who did it. They didn't know what happened. So clearly they didn't tell on me. But nobody else told on me either. And so I remember laying there all night waiting for these seals to come get me. I knew that I was going to get another case. I knew things were going to go bad, and they never came back. And the crazy part, this is such a pivotal moment for me because the next day, I went out for breakfast, the doors opened up for breakfast, and I just walked out. And I didn't even really put together the fact that nobody saw what they did to me. Right. They didn't see that these guys were slick. They ran into the cell, close the door. Nobody saw that. They just saw this crazy white dude come out and stab the hell out of this guy. I come out, what's up, man? What up, man? What up, man? What up, man?

[A]

So now suddenly you have all the respect.

[B]

Suddenly I've got this respect. People are looking me in the eyes. People are, what up, bro? What up? What up? Like, okay, this is what I'm going to have to do. This is how I'm going to survive this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I was there for another couple, few weeks, and, you know, you're going through your orientation processes and blah, blah, blah, and everybody was. They didn't really talk to anybody. Right. I'm still very scared, but I put on this demeanor of, I'm tough now. And so we. We got on a bus and went to Lapeer, Michigan, which is where they sent all the young kids to Lapeer Level four. And my bunky is this young gang banger, and he's sitting next to me on the bus. And you can see on the manifest of what cells you're going to. He's like, we're gonna be bunkies, bro. I'm like, all right, cool. His name's Lalo. And we. When we get into this cell, eventually he takes his shirt off. He's got this big crown tattooed on his chest. I'm like, what? What is that? Well, that's my set. I don't know what a set is. Well, this is my gang. Oh, wow. So that's what a set means when they're like, what are you claiming? What set? Oh, now it's starting to make sense. But he quickly was like, man, we could use somebody like you on the team, man, if you. I can talk to my. To the head if you want to join, right? And it's like, yeah, of course. And we went out to the yard and he introduced me to them, and they were like, yeah, dude, we heard about, you know, how you took care of business back in quarantine. And we. Yeah, we. We need downriders, man. And they're like, you want to put in work? And handed me a knife and was

[A]

like, what kind of a group is this?

[B]

I don't like to. I'm not going to say the name, but it was Mexicans, Latino people.

[A]

And they welcomed. Welcomed you in.

[B]

Yeah. The Michigan prisons aren't really race. They're more about gangs or cities, like, what city you're from or what gang you're with. It's not really a race thing. Even though the white guys hated me because I started to roll with these Latinos and I was the race traitor. So they. As much as I get or have been accused of being a Nazi, it's like, you have no idea how much I have battled these wannabe Aryans and racist people. Like, I've been stabbed by them. We've been in fights constantly. Like, they hate me because they think I'm a race traitor. But the first thing he does is hand me a knife and says, that's the opposition. You want to join, you got to go put in work. Walked right over, and I just stabbed somebody. Yeah. And I just found that stabbing people just became so easy for me, like, and that's what I started to do.

[A]

Where did you carry the knife?

[B]

Oh, well, I mean, we. I never pocket the knife. Like, you hear a lot of people. Like, I would never do that. I'm not sticking a knife on my backside. That's not gonna be what I meant

[A]

when I asked, but because we had a. We had a guest to talk about that.

[B]

Yeah, I just. You know what? I'm not going to do that. Like, I. I clearly have heard about people, but I'm not doing that. My man. Listen, like, it's just as easy. I have come to find that hiding things right here under your armpit is just as easy. Like, I put my hands up, you can shake me down. Go for it. I don't have to pocket anything. Right. And. And so most of the time, I mean, we. We would have, like, we would cut a little spot in our armpits on the. The coats of our. Of our state jackets, and you could just slide it in there and just kind of put a Snap on there and sew a snap into it so it's just kind of in your arm. That's where I usually. Or we would bury them in certain spots on the yard so that it's always accessible. Or you'd have them hidden.

[A]

What happened to the people you were stabbing?

[B]

Oh, I mean they would go to PC or go to the hole or sometimes they would come back. I mean this was, it was heavily gang back in that day. Right. But then in 99 everybody started telling us about Baldwin. This new prison that's opening up, it's owned by Wacken Hut.

[A]

It's a private prison.

[B]

Yeah, it's a private prison. And I thought it was the first private prison in the United States. I had some prison historian who schooled me in a comment section of one of my videos and was like it's not the first private prison in the country, that's just in Michigan. Okay, got it. I, you know, I didn't do all the research but this is the first one in Michigan. It's called nycf. And I was on the second ride in into this facility and it was Everybody that was 20 and under, right. You're going, if when you turn 20 you're out, they're going to send you back. And this was the worst two years of my life. This place is ran by cos that either failed at being real corrections officers, failed at being military or police officers. A lot of them were gas station workers or the girl that worked at subway that went and did a six week training. And you're a CO and they put them in this, in this within 30 days. And you can research this facility, millions of dollars in lawsuits. The first 30 days of this facility being opened it was the most violent prison in Michigan out of all the prisons. Raping, stabbings, beatings, assaults on staff, assaults on inmates. Place. It was a war zone. You took these kids that are 16, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19. And they've all been in prison for a few years and you stuck them in here and then you started taking all these juvenile kids and sticking them in there. It was a war zone. And then the seals don't know what to do. So we first get there, we're in these, all these different pods and they're not letting us out for yard. And so we're like yo, what's up with our yard? So they just got overwhelmed. They're like fine here. Opened up the whole thing like go to yard and you're surprised 30 minutes later it's a gang war on the Yard. Like, we're out there beating the hell out of each other. Of course we are. We're young kids. We don't know what we're doing. We're trying to claim the library and claim the laundry and claim the store, and we're laying claim to everything. And it just got so bad. And then a couple months into it, we. There's this kid named White Tyson who slapped a CEO because the CEO was shaking him down and grabbed him in his privates, and he turned around and smacked the CEO, and then he was taken to the hole. And then a few days later, he's back. We're like, how did that happen? Right? If you touch a CO in the mdoc, it's a new case they're gonna put. You're getting a new charge. You just. Either you're telling on somebody or something's going wrong. We realized they don't know what they're doing. They just wrote them an assault ticket, gave them five days in the hole, and let him back out. Open season. We just started beating up the COs. You go to the hole, come out a week later. Like, they just don't know what they're doing. So it just got so bad to where, like, my buddy Casper and his friend locked up the pod, beat the CO and then took over the pod, took over the whole pot for hours. Started trashing the place. That was when they shut it down. They were like, okay, whole facilities on lockdown. They brought in these cert teams from Virginia to come up, and they admitted, like, we don't know what the hell we're doing. These kids are out of control. And these cos came up, they were just some of the most vicious human beings you've ever met in your life. These are highly trained cell extraction response teams. They came up, they started to torture us. Like, I go to the hole, they're chaining me to the shower, gassing me in the face, beating me. I've lost this tooth here because they. They gassed me, hogtied me, threw me out in the segregation kennels, and it's winter, and they threw a bucket of water on me and left me there for a couple hours. And he comes out, hey, are you alive? And kicked me in the face. My tooth. Take me back in the cell, turn the hot water on immediately, and just leave you in there. Like, this was torture, absolute torture. And then throw you in the cells. Like, two really traumatic years in this place. And then send me back to the doc when I turned 20. And they sent me the St. Louis, level four. And I go into the cell with Keith on green. This guy, his nickname is Terrible T. He's one of the founding members of the Young Boys Incorporated out of Detroit. It's this old street gang from the 70s. They got famous for putting their logo on their dope sex. And this guy is like, you are such a hot headed young gangster. If you learn how to be smooth, you could get out and be a real, real gangster, right? So now I'm enticed by this guy who's watching General Hospital all day, every day. He watches soap operas all day. And I'm like, man, this guy's legit though. He's showing me all this old stuff like he's a legit criminal. And so now I want to be like this. So then he schools me for a bit and I end up getting out, right? Like December 13, 2002, they opened the doors like, here's $75 and three condoms. Your time's up. I'm like, I forgot that I was supposed to get that I was getting out. That's how entrenched. I never thought I was gonna leave. And I was so entrenched that I was like, oh crap, my time's up.

[A]

You know, I had just.

[B]

Go ahead.

[A]

We had a guest here called Michael Santos. He did a 20 something years in prison. He was sentenced to 40 something for cocaine trafficking. Incredible guy. Sort of turned his life around. He's now very involved in prison reform. I should connect you guys. He's really special dude and one of the things he says is that most people teach, the first thing they tell you when you get to prison is you should not worry, you should forget about life outside and just concentrate in life in here because that's the only way you'll survive. He says that is the worst. It's the exact opposite. You have to concentrate on life outside and forget about what's happening here because that's the only way. You have to start making plans, thinking about what you're going to do, preparing yourself and yeah, just getting ready for the moment that you're going to step out of prison and nobody. And usually people don't do that.

[B]

Yeah, well, our orientation used to be when you go in, like when we went to quarantine in Riverside, your orientation was the COs get you all into this, into chow hole and then they leave and six or seven level four cats come in and these are the guys that are going to school you now that the COs are gone. Don't do this, don't do this, don't do this. If you are going to do this, do this, do this. Protect here, protect here, protect here. If you're going to be having sex, use gloves. If you're going to be shooting needles, don't share them. If you're like they would school you on actually how to be a convict.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that's the same mentality. Right. Like they're teaching you how to engage here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Instead of saying it's not reform, go to the library.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. Find a study buddy and learn.

[A]

Oh, it's actually worse than that. They don't want to, they don't want you in many cases. Right.

[B]

Because prison is a business.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

They have to have customers. If you don't have customers, your business fails.

[A]

And because there's zero empathy for people in prison. Right. Why should we be spending any money or resources or time with people in prison? Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So there's no, not even a will to for actual reform.

[B]

None. And you have to do it yourself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you don't do it, and I'm a card carrying case of that entire first five years, did nothing but take this, this traumatized, victimized young man and turn him into a very cold.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Callous, uncaring individual. And then you open the doors and let me go with no parole, no probation, no oversight, 75 bucks and three condoms.

[A]

Right. I mean in your case it's. So why don't. You went in because you stole the pedal bike and you come out as like a killer. Right. You were stabbing people.

[B]

It was bad while you were in there. It got bad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you leave prison that day or your. Is your mom there? Is anyone?

[B]

Yes, my mother and my brother came to get. So my mother lives in Tucson, Arizona. She had ended up out there and, and she came up because I was getting out and, and my brother, her and my brother came to pick me. This is the first time I seen my brother since I was 12 years old and they were there to pick me up and we went back to Eaton Rapids and this is where like life started. I got drunk immediately and passed out. And I woke up at one o' clock in the morning and decided I wanted to go for a walk because I hadn't been free in forever. And I passed out and I went to the store and I robbed somebody at the store the first day I was out.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I didn't, I mean that $75 didn't last long at all.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so I went down.

[A]

Do you remember thinking like, this is probably not A good idea, but I'm going to do it anyway. It was just like, this is me.

[B]

I came out of prison with the goal of trying to be the next Scarface. Like, I'm going to be the best gangster I can be. I'm going to make millions of dollars selling drugs, getting coke and women and guns. And I'm going to be a gangster. Because this is what this guy just taught me. It was like, this is where the real money is, right? And so that's what I was going to do. Like, I. I'm not afraid to go back to prison. I've been there, done that. Thrive in that environment. I'm okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm not scared of anything. And so that's how lost I was in this. There was not one ounce of trying to rehabilitate this kid. Right? And so that was the first day out. I do that. And then I start traveling. Like, I'm leaving, I'm going down to Miami. Or, you know, I'm gonna go see my mother. And she, you know, she stayed for a few days and then she left. And so I was there for a few months. I met this girl Nikki, and I ended up getting her pregnant. And then I'm like, I don't want to be around. Like, I'm gonna take off. I wasn't not meant for this. But what's that over there? And left and figured I'd go see my mom in Arizona. And when I get to Arizona, I meet my mom. And then I met Danielle, who is Dalen's mother out there.

[A]

And Dylan's with her today here in the studio.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Dalen's right over here. Great kid. And her. And I hit it off so well. But she was with me in a time that I was just not a good guy. Right. This is where I tried crystal meth for the first time. I got into cocaine pretty heavily in Arizona. I mean, it's really prevalent in Tucson. You're not that far from Nogala. And guns and meeting guys from the Mexican mafia and like, oh, man, I can take all these guns that I have dirt cheap here and I can run them back to Michigan and sell them for a premium amount. Right. I can bring some dope back down here. Even though this is where all the dope comes from, I can still bring dope down here and I can deal the dope down here and get more guns and take.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so this is my mentality, like, I'm going to do this, and it's just so bad. And then there was A point where my brother ended up shooting a friend of ours in the neck. And. And he got paralyzed from the neck down. And we like, we gotta get out of here. We gotta get out of Tucson or my brother is gonna go to prison. I gotta get him out of here. And we left. I took Danielle and me and my brother, and we all went to Sacramento. His mom ended up getting really smart and was like, I'm like, we're not doing this. I'm not doing this life. Like, go get your stuff together and like, let's. Let's. We're going to get a home. We're going to get a place. We're about to have this baby. I'm like, all right, I'm going to do that. Me and my buddy Cooter. I call him Cooter. We. We're like, all right, we're going to go back to Tucson. We're going to go back to Michigan. We're going to do some work. We're going to get some money, and then I'm going to come back and be with Danielle. Cooter is going to stay in Michigan. I'm coming back with Danielle, and I'm going to raise Dalen. And so went back to Michigan. And on September 2, 2004, I got arrested for home invasions, running guns. Like, we had stole a bunch of guns from houses, and we're breaking into homes and stealing things and just got caught that day. Just happened to be a cop rolling by, and we're like, crap. So he comes to pull us over. I take off. My brother and our other buddy, they get caught, and I got away. And in several hours, I've been through this big police chase, all this crazy stuff, and then I get caught. And my brother told on me. And I remember in that moment, like, really, like, as much as I've done for this guy, you're gonna tell on me. Oh, I thought that's what you would want me to say, because, you know, you. You got away. We got caught. So they'd let us go if we blamed everything on you and we'd catch up with you later. Like, that's not how being a criminal works, dude. What? No.

[A]

Why do you think he did it?

[B]

I think in his mind, he thought they were gonna let him go if he blamed all of me. My brother's an ex convict. He's the gangster. He's. If you blame everything on me, they're gonna let you go. You're an idiot. That didn't work. So we get arrested and I get charged with 15 more felonies and sent back to prison for 12 more years. And this is. I'm literally on Christmas, December of that year, I get pictures from Danielle of Dalen for the first time ever. And I'm in the hole. I got into a fight as soon as I got in there, I'm sitting in the hole. And they bring me these pictures. I'm not even allowed to keep them, but they bring me these pictures. The first time I see Dalen's face, like, just this little baby, and I'm like, oh, my God. Like, breaks my heart. Like, here's another kid that I have failed. I've just. I suck at life. I really suck. And they sent me back to prison. And then my oldest kid's mom comes back in the picture, and his mom, Danielle, wrote me a letter and was like, I'm not sticking around. You're an idiot. Like, I gotta raise this kid. Like, you have just thrown our entire life away. Like, you. I'm gonna go. Don't think I'm gonna sit here and wait for you. And, I mean, what are you gonna say? I can't argue with that. And so then, you know, here comes Caden's mom, Nikki. She comes back in the picture and she's like, I'm gonna stay with you. I'm gonna. We'll do this together. You know, I can wait. I'll go to school and I'll bring your son up to see you all the time, blah, blah, blah. And I had met Nikki through my brother. And so I go back to prison. A couple, few years into it, I get a letter from my brother, and he's like, I just saw the parole board and they're staying off my parole decision because we have pending charges and they were bringing more charges against us. And so I went in there and told them that I did everything, that my brother was innocent, wasn't there, and I'm just so protective of this guy, and I don't even know why.

[A]

Did he ask you to do that?

[B]

He kind of hinted at it, right? It was just like, man, they're not going to give me a decision until these cases get resolved.

[A]

So wait, so was he. He was in a worse situation than you were at the time. So by taking the blame for some of that, you would take some of time away out sentencing or.

[B]

He was facing the same things that I was, right. Like, we all did these crimes together, but he had only gotten two years for the gun.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That he had. And he was just in the car when we got arrested. They didn't have any proof that he had done anything. He was just in the car, and he had told them that I forced him to drive me to these houses to collect money that was owed to me and that I was hitting these houses, stealing the guns, and played innocent. I went along with that so that they would drop the charges on him.

[A]

If you had come up with this story before, would he have played up along with it?

[B]

No, no, no. They. They dropped the charges against him, and he gave him a parole. And then he sent me another letter. Thank you, bro. Thank you, bro. I got a parole. I'm going to a homeless shelter. But I'll get up on my feet, man. I'll be there for you. I'm like, you know, why are you going to a homeless shelter? So I called Nikki. I said, hey, let Frank parole to your house. Like, you know him. He's your brother. He can come help you with the bills. He can help you with Kayden. I hate him. That's not going to happen. No, no, no. He's my brother. She's like, why? I don't know why you don't hate him. He's got you in prison all this time. Just. He's my brother. What are you. He's the only family that I really got. The only guy in my life that's never abused me. Right? Like, I. I'm. Yeah, fine, bro. You can pro. To Nikki's house. And then he got out. And the first day he was out, I called, I talked to him, and that was the last time I talked to Nikki, him or my son, for months. And I'm going crazy, like, because they're not answering or. Yeah, they're not answering the phone anymore. And I call every day, twice a day, talk to my son every day. She brings my son up to see me every week, and just nothing. And I'm. I'm freaking out. I'm like, what happened? Did you guys get a car accident? What's going on? Like, I don't. I'm. Nothing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And a few months later, the phone answers, and it's Nikki. And I'm like, what the hell is going on? I'm still trying. Every day I'm making this phone call. Oh, you're gonna hate me. You're gonna hate me. Why am I gonna hate you? Like, I'm pregnant. 12. I don't expect you to be a nun. I'm in prison for 12 years. I didn't think you weren't gonna. Well, that's not the worst part.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What's the worst part, it's Frank's and I just lost my mind, right? I'm like, this guy just cannot stop screwing me over. Like, are you kidding me, bro? I got you out of prison. Like, he don't think it. You should talk to Kaden anymore. We're gonna raise him.

[A]

What?

[B]

And so, bye. I just, I lost. Like, I had determined that I was going to be a better person for Kaden. You know, I, I, like, I seen my son every week and I know that Dalen's out there and I know that I've got these kids. I'm going to be a better father. They're. I'm gonna, I'm gonna get out when they're 12 years old. I'm gonna be a better dad. I'm gonna be a better person. And then this happens and I just, I'm done. Like, I just don't care anymore. I've lost him. Danielle hates me. I'm probably not going to see Dalen anyway. I just don't care anymore. Like, I'm just going to be the worst, most vilest human being I can because that at least has a payoff. At least I'm making money and I get my aggression out. And a few days later, this kid robbed everything in my cell. Like, I went to work, I worked in the kitchen. I come back, all my stuff is gone. And it was five minutes. I knew who it was, right? I had a lot of respect on the yard. So people were like, dude, that was that guy Flint, man, the guy right there. And I beat this kid horribly bad. Like, I strapped my weight pit straps around my wrists and I put my locks on them and they let us out for a child. And I just, I stood over this kid and just beat this kid to a pulp until they gassed me. I was just taking the CO's. Yeah, the COs were running up like, stop, stop, stop. And I'm like, you can get it too, man, come on over. And it was just, it's not even this. It was that, right? It's like it felt like this guy is receiving all the pain of my life, right? Like, not, not just what you did, just everything. And I mean, I'm like crying blood all over me and tears and they're gassing me. I mean, it was just a crazy, crazy scene, right? And they tackle me and they carting me off across the yard to segregation. They take me down the hallway and they throw me into the cell, back up, take the cuffs off, boom. And I go over to the sink and I'M trying to wash this blood and this pepper spray out of my face, splashing water in my face. And then I hear this guy. Hey, white boy. I'm like, hey, white boy. I can't really see. I go to the door and I look across the hall. We're at the very end of this rock and there's a. This very thin window. And there's a fire riser that comes out of the end, so you can only see halfway across. And I see this old black guy with this. With a durag on. He's got an old beard and he's half looking out the window. So you're really seeing this. Hey, why, boy? Like, what, dude, do you want come talk to me, man? Like, shut up, bro. Stop talking to me, man. What the hell? You don't know who I am, bro? Like, shut up, man. And you can see in his window, he's got this circle seven of Islam sticker. So I know that he's a mobite. I can identify him, right? Like, I know these people. And so I'm just cussing him out a few hours later. Hey, why, boy? I'm like, dog, stop talking to me. Stop calling over here. Stop yelling. I don't want to talk to you. I don't want to be your friend. Shut up. Every day, hey, white boy. Like, bro, what part of this are you not getting? Like, I'm going to kill you, my guy. Like, you're making me so angry. This, if I get a chance, I'm gonna rip your face off, my guy. Okay, tough guy. Okay, okay. Hey, white boy. I go down, I see sec, probably five days later. Five, six days later, I go, see, I got found guilty on the ticket. Gave me 30 days detention, which is the most that they can give you for anything. And then you go see security classification committee. I go down, I see them. They say, this guy's in a coma.

[A]

The flint. The guy you beat up?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. If he dies, we're going to charge you with murder and you're going to spend the rest of your life in prison. But as it sits, we'll see in 60 months, we'll see in five years.

[A]

Five years. Wow.

[B]

And it's administrative segregation. So I'm like, dude, I don't care. What? I don't care, man. Whatever, dude. Send me back to my cell. I go back to the cell. Hey, white boy.

[A]

Just so I get this, administrative segregation is sort of like.

[B]

It's long term segregation.

[A]

So it's like solitary.

[B]

Yeah. So they. Yeah, so it all is. But detention Is so when you get a major misconduct, you have to go see a hearings officer in Michigan. You go see the hearing and he weighs the evidence and finds you guilty. If he finds you guilty, he can give you up to 30 days detention, which is solitary confinement.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

And then you have to go see the security classification committee and they're going to check your behavior to see if you're allowed to get out after that 30 days or if you need some more time to think about what you've done. And so they have an indefinite stretch. They can put you on administrative segregation and they only, they review you every 30 days. They can review you once a year. They can review you once every 5 years, 60 months. Go for it.

[A]

5 years is insane. That means they're not going to review it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In five years. They're just going to leave you there for five years.

[B]

They got guys that they. Every 10 years that is going to be pretend. Yeah. It's literally human torture of the just the deepest levels. It is horrible to slowly deteriorate a human mind by isolation like that. And I mean it's nuts because there's all you hear all day are people banging the doors, arguing, yelling, fighting, singing, rapping, making beats on the door, just going nuts. It's, it's literally if you don't learn how to block that noise, it can drive you insane. The walls will start talking to you. It's. It's nuts.

[A]

So what are the things that you couldn't do in administrative?

[B]

So you don't have anything?

[A]

Well, well, you can't go to the yard, right? You can't.

[B]

Well, so you, you're always allowed one hour of yard a day.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But it's in a dog kennel. Right. So it's like a, just a little 8 foot by 12 foot cage with a pull up bar. Right. Or if you get lucky, it's got

[A]

a basketball rim and you're there by yourself or with others?

[B]

By yourself, all by yourself. So they'll, they'll come. But they always do it at 4 o' clock in the morning or 5 o'. Clock. You want yard? No, I'm sleeping. I don't want to go. I'm not gonna go. Plus it's freezing outside now. I'm not going outside. So you just never go outside. You never get fresh air. You never.

[A]

And you're not allowed to socialize. Like you're not.

[B]

You can yell across the hall. That's about as good as you're gonna get. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, that's horrible.

[B]

And so go Back to the cell. And again, I wasn't in there five minutes. Hey, why, boy? What happened? I'm like, dude, what, man? What do you want, bro? Just, I want to talk to you, man. Talk to me what? What do you want to talk about? He said, why are you so angry? I'm like, what kind of question is that? Like, what are you, a psychologist? I'm in prison. My life sucks. I'm in the hole. You won't shut up. There's a lot of reasons why I'm angry. They said, no, that's why you're mad. And mad is a surface emotion and it's temporary. And anger is something much different. Then you're a very angry young man. And I didn't have an answer for that. Shut up, man. You're an idiot. And I walked and paced and that's what really started getting my mind. Like, why am I so angry? I am so angry. I am such an angry young person. Like, I just know. I'm such a. I'm angry all the time. Your little one grew three inches overnight. Adorable. Also expensive. Sell their pint sized pieces on Depop and list them in minutes with no selling fees because somewhere a dad refuses to pay full price for the clothes his kids will outgrow tomorrow. And he's ready to buy your son's entire wardrobe right now. Now consider your future growth Bird budget secured. Start selling on Depop, where taste recognizes taste. Payment processing fees and boosting fees still apply. See website for details. And I mean, I realize after a minute or two, it's. It's. I've been a victim my whole life. Of course I'm angry. That's why I'm so angry. And so I decide I might as well talk to this guy and tell him my life like this. This is why I'm angry. Maybe you can understand a little bit why I'm so angry. Agreed. So I. I tell him my whole life. And I mean, his reaction was like, so. And I'm like, screw you, bro. Like, I just dumped my whole life to you, man. And that's it. It's like, what are you gonna. What can you do about it? Can't change it. I'm like, yeah, but that's not the point. He's like, well, what is the point if you can't change anything, why are you still mad about it? Like. And he's like, I want you to read something, going, send you a book. And he shot me over this book that's got just a candle. It's a black one. It's got a candle and the light on it, and it's Victor Frankl's man's search for meaning. And this book changed my life. Like, I read this book and to see the story of Victor Frankl and what he endured and what he went through, and to look at my life and to be like, yeah, I was abused and I had some bad things happen to me, and I used that as an excuse to be such a bad person. I was displacing my own pain onto other people so that I felt better or somehow more justified. And you read this, and it's just like a big fat mirror, right? Like, I want to be Viktor Frankl. I want to be somebody that takes this pain and teach other people that this doesn't have to dominate. But I know how to do that. I'm not worthy of this kind of stuff. I'm. I'm a horrible piece of trash. I'm not worthy of this. And you read that line, suffering ceases to be suffering the moment you give it a meaning, right? Such is the purpose of sacrifice.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And it just. It started if this guy changed my life. This. This mobite across the hall just started schooling me, and he taught me so many things, and I go in depth about it in my book, and so people can read about that.

[A]

But so two things for you. First of all, explain who Viktor Frankl was. He's a Holocaust survivor, right?

[B]

Yes. He had a family and a jewelry business, and very successful one. And then one day, the Nazis kicked his door in and took him and his whole family to Auschwitz. And he watched his friends and his family be exterminated and experimented on, and just the cruelest form of. Of punishment you could for nothing. Punishment is not even a proper word to use because these people didn't do anything to deserve punishment. But to watch these people be systematically destroyed in front of him. And the whole time he said, we can no longer control our environment. We're challenged to control this.

[A]

Our minds.

[B]

They can take this, but they cannot take away our freedom to choose the last of man's great freedoms. They can't take away our freedom to choose. And so even though we exist in this horrible environment, smile. Let's. Let's be positive. Think happy thoughts. Think empathy. Think kindness. Think love. Think caring. Think. And I just, for some reason, never thought about it that way, right? Like, never looked at life like, God, I could just be nice. I could just be kind. And it started me on this trajectory, like, all right, well, let's try it. The CEOs hate me. I am such an asshole to the CEOs, right.

[A]

There's another thing that he also talked. That you talked a little bit about. Right now, he talks a lot about this, which I thought was such a. It is such an incredible message, the idea that all of us experience suffering in our lives. Right. But if you turn the it around, the suffering around, and you. I am suffering because I am.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Give me some examples of some. Just explain the idea, because I'm sure that this has had much more of an impact on you.

[B]

He takes. I'm suffering for a purpose. There is a reason why I'm suffering. I went through this so that I could save a thousand lives.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right, Right. So if you had the knowledge that you were going to save a thousand lives, would it be worth it to you to endure this little bit of suffering? If the answer to that is yes, that you, sir, you suffered for a reason. You suffered for a purpose. And so looking at that from that perspective, I mean, I can show you DMs. I've been seen. My story's been seen over 25 million times. I have hundreds of thousands of DMs from people that are like, I was going to kill myself. And you just stop that.

[A]

And you know that that's the reason

[B]

that I went through all. All the abuse in my life. It would have been to save that life.

[A]

Yeah. It would have been great if you knew that back then.

[B]

Right. Sure Would have made it easier in

[A]

the moment in Auschwitz and realized that how all that he was suffering, everything that was going through that was being done to him and his family, and the sort of ability to change your thought process and think that what's gonna bring you a little peace is to think that you're going through this. But maybe you're going through this because this is a message for what's happening here will never happen again. This will prevent this happening in the future. Right.

[B]

And he had the foresight of that, knowing the. The level of atrocity that's happening in Auschwitz, we will be the template.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That this will never happen again. Right. And so we are sacrificing for a reason. Right. And while that doesn't make it easier for people that are going through that suffering or people that are going through that pain or people that were related to that pain, the ability to have that mindset in that moment.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It's just.

[B]

It's empowering.

[A]

It's so empowering.

[B]

And. And what I saw from that was Victor is saying, if I can do it. Yeah, you can do it. Anybody can do it. I don't have any special powers that nobody else has. Right. So if I can do any of this, so can you. And. And one of the things that I work with a lot of people. I will never tell you how to do something. I'm never going to tell you what to do. I will tell you what I did, and here's how I did it. If you can take something from this that you can, that is applicable to your life, I served my purpose. Whatever else, it's just a good story.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Just take that and enjoy it for what it is.

[A]

And what's the name of the person, by the way, who was yelling, hey, white boy?

[B]

Mallory. Well, so it's a name that I changed.

[A]

Why?

[B]

And I know that, you know, some pretty violent and vicious organizations, they think white people are the devil. Blue eyes, devil. Right. And if they knew that he was helping me. And so in prison, we have a very strict policy of we only interact with that group if it's business. Other than that, don't talk to me. I don't talk to you. If you do, violence ensues.

[A]

Huh. So it's a way of protecting him, I guess, if he's still in prison.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. He's serving natural life. He's been there since 1984.

[A]

So if they knew he was helping you, he would be beat up or something would happen or worse.

[B]

Yeah, because they're going to. The first thing they're going to do is come and say, you see what you did for that white boy? You see how good he's out there living?

[A]

Right?

[B]

Do you see what you've done? You have just helped the enemy proliferate. And they would. And then he would. So I.

[A]

Do you know, if he did this, was he this. I don't know, this impact?

[B]

I don't know. He made it abundantly clear that we're not friends. Right. Like, I'm not your friend. It's literally this. This moment. I saw him a few years later down the road in a visit, in the visiting room, and I looked at him and I was like. And I waved, and he gave me the look of like. Like it. You know, I already know. I don't. You don't have to say it. I get it. We're not friends. Right. And I don't want to ever put him in a situation or it could harm him. Right. Like, the guy literally saved my life.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. But what. What an incredible man.

[B]

Still.

[A]

Yeah. Incredible what he did to you. And I'm sure he's done that to several other people.

[B]

And that's one of the things that I. I came to find out later in my time, like, that was the turning point of my entire bit, right? Like, I had a little bit more violence getting out of the gang, because that was. That was a bit of a pain. But that was the last time. That was when I realized that this is all a choice, right? Like gang activities, fights, violence in prison. It's all a choice. You don't have to do that, right? You can come here and just as easily, just, this is the best college you're going to get, right? There's a library. You have access to so much stuff. And the older guys that have been there for a long time, they generally are just the most wisest in teaching people that you'll ever meet. They want to educate you. My life is done. I'm here for the rest of my life. But you have an opportunity to get out. And so if I can teach you something, give you some wisdom, I can live vicariously through you. And you see a lot of those guys that. That have been there a long time that are never getting out, that do that.

[A]

And so how did that. How did the book and how did your communication with Mallory Bay start changing?

[B]

So I started to write. I started to write forgiveness letters. He taught me about writing because I didn't realize he also sent me. The second book he sent me was called the Likability Factor. I think it's by Mark Sanborn, I think the L factor. And I read the book. I'm like, what is this, a joke? This is a book about how to be likable, how to develop attributes that somebody will like you. You could be a likable person. And after reading it, I'm like, dude, you're a. I suck. I don't have any of these traits. Like, I'm not a likable person. I'm a lost cause. I'm not worthy of being liked. And then he's like, read it again. And don't look at it from the perspective of who you are. Look at it from who you could be, what you can do, right? When you walk out of here, when you get out of prison, you can be 35 years old. Nobody knows who you are. It's not like you're going to step out of prison. They're going to be out there with paparazzi, being like, oh, this guy's back. They don't know who you are. You can be anybody you want. You can choose your personality. And here's this light bulb moment. I can choose my personality.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's not true. Like, you're born into something. You're, you're, you're. You're raised and cultivated by your environment. Are you. You can choose. Pick three people that you admire, what you admire about them, and apply it to your life. I chose Denzel Washington, George Clooney, and the Rock. I love these guys. Denzel Washington because of his calm composure, his assertiveness, and he's just. He's so well put together. He's articulate and he's calm and he's collective, but he also resonates power right from himself. And then George Clooney. George Clooney is class. He's good looking, he's well composed, and he puts himself together well. And then the Rock is just charisma and he's fearlessness and he's that big old smile. And I'm like, those are three people that I really admire. What do I take from those people? And you're right. I could just stop. I could do whatever. You can literally do anything you want. Life is yours. There's no playbook. There's no rulebook that says you have to be a dick. No, no. You can also be a good person. You can just choose that.

[A]

Except you don't know if any of those guys are actually dicks, because you don't.

[B]

Right. I can just choose to be a good guy. Like the Rock. The Rock smiles. I can just choose to smile at everybody.

[A]

I'm sure he's fantastic. I'm sure he's great, actually. I've heard him in interviews. He sounds amazing.

[B]

And it works. Yeah, right. You start smiling at people and watch how much people warm up to you.

[A]

Oh, it's so true.

[B]

You don't know my past. You don't know my background.

[A]

A big believer in smiles and being warm to people. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And I think one of the problems with being an abuse survivor is that we approach everything like, you know me, you know that I've been abused. You know that I've been a bad guy. You know, I've done bad things. So you're automatically going to judge me? I guarantee it.

[A]

But also, I think this idea that you're also afraid of every. Everybody. Right. Or everybody's intentions. Like, once you're traumatized as a kid, it's very hard to start trusting people again. So everybody is a threat. Everybody is represents danger and abuse.

[B]

Everything. Even when I think you're good and you're trying to be kind to me, there must be a reason you're not doing it altruistically. I don't deserve that. I'm not worthy of somebody actually liking me or caring about me as, as a human being. And so I automatically will put that on you. You. Right. And so I had to rewire that in my brain. And he started walking me down. He said, you first have to forgive yourself. Well, how do you, how does somebody do that? Like forgiveness, what is that? Jesus forgives. God forgives.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Does he? That's not, you know, that's not a God made concept. Right? Forgiveness has nothing to do with religion. Forgiveness is literally letting go of the things that have been done to you and the things that you have done to other people and start with yourself, forgive yourself first. Right? Realize that you're a human being. You're going to make mistakes. Every human being does. There's no such thing as perfect. God is the template for that. Jesus was not perfect. So you can't be perfect and forgive yourself. The one thing, it's about what you do with the knowledge that you have of the things you've done. So I've hurt people in the past. So I started to write these forgiveness letters because I don't even know half the people that, like, I've robbed people, I've hurt people, I don't know them. How do I seek forgiveness from them, how do I go to that person and say, I'm so sorry that I did that to you? Write letters. Write letters to them and the intention will go to them. God, Buddha, Allah, whatever you call them will take that intention, will put it on their heart. And so I just started to write these letters and then the first I write the letter and I send it over to him. Like, how's that? Well, you're just making excuses in here. This is. I did this to you because I was raped. I was victimized as a child. I had a bad life. My brother screwed me over. This is all just excuses. That's not remorse. Do it again. How's that? Do it again. Do it again. And it got to the point where I'm pouring my soul into these letters, right? Like I didn't know you, you didn't deserve what happened to me. I was such a lost and broken soul that I took the pain I was feeling inside of myself and I put it on you. And it was unfair. You did not deserve that. I have violated your trust in life and in humanity. And I am so sorry. If I could change that, I would. But what I promise you, is that I will live every day for the rest of my life trying to be the best, best form of a human being that I can so that you know that the harm that I have caused you is not in vain. Right? That's my remorse. That's all I can do. I don't know who you are, but I will live every day of my life being the best version of myself so that what I've done to you is not in vain. Right? And that's my North Star. That's. That's what I do every day of my life. Now, I. I try as hard as I can to help as many people as I can. Like, we're all screwed up somehow. We've all made mistakes. We've all. But it does not define us. What we have been through does not define us. Right? What has happened to us and what we have done does not define who we are. We can turn around at any moment and just start living a better life and reset this clock. Your life still has value. You still have worth. You are a human being. You have worth. You have a purpose. You have meaning. And it's only wasted if you decide that you don't, and then you throw it away. Right? And so that was the turning point of my life. And I realized, like, I can actually be something. I can do something with my life. I am worthy. The things that I've done wrong are my fault. I made those choices out of a lack of understanding, a lack of wisdom, and a lack of intelligence or emotional intelligence. So I have to forgive myself. I don't justify what I've done. Those things are bad, but this is why I did them. It's not an excuse. I'm not excusing or justifying the behavior, but this is the mentality I was in, and that's why I did it. And so I live my life now to just try to make amends for that.

[A]

That is incredible. It's. In many ways, your life turned your life around because. Essentially, because of meeting that one man. Right. And what he meant to you. I always think back about why isn't our prison system doing this? Right. They have the ability to.

[B]

They don't want to.

[A]

Yeah. It shouldn't be up to one man in solitary confinement having this type of impact in a person's life.

[B]

What if I hadn't met him? Right.

[A]

What if you hadn't met him? Yeah.

[B]

What if I had gotten put in a cell down here or downstairs or anywhere else?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. That man is very much what Michael Santos was for so many men in prison, like the guest that we had, he had the same sort of impact on so many men. But it's. Yeah, what if Michael Santos didn't exist? Right. So many men wouldn't have had that transformation in their lives. But now you left. So tell me, you left prison and you sort of became that mentor for so many people as well. How was that?

[B]

So it's. The story is just so long, right? Like, you can't make my life up. It's insane. I ended up getting. I went to protective custody out of that because they gave me an opportunity to teach a class because I really started to change my life around. But then. And I had to get out of the gang. So I went through about a year of getting jumped, getting. I mean, I got stabbed three times. I have holes in my head because

[A]

they didn't want you to leave.

[B]

They don't want you to leave, leave. But then after that, the rest of my time was studying building with guys in the yard. You know, I've got a lot of people I'm still in contact with that. We did yoga on the yard. I've got 30x. There's convicts on the yard and downward dog, like. But we were growing. And then I got out in 2016, and I was married to a lady that I met in there, and it did not last long.

[A]

You met her through correspondence or how did you get.

[B]

So one of my bunkies was actually her personal trainer in the world, introduced me to her. She was helping me with some legal. Legal stuff because she was. She worked at a law firm, and then just this is the only human being that ever paid me attention. So of course I fell in love. I fell in love, like, oh, my God, you're amazing. And then she romanticized that and fell in love with me. And then we got married. And so I then paroled out to her place in Akron, Ohio, and she had gotten me and hooked up with her best friend's husband in the union doing demolition in Cleveland. And so I moved to Cleveland, and I was out, literally 60 days with her. Was like, we live two different lives. Like, you want to go to work, come home, cook, clean, do laundry, sit down, watch tv, go to sleep? I've been sitting on my ass for 18 years. I have things to do. I can't do that life. So we had a pretty amicable divorce. This is the first time I'm 35 years old. For the first time, I'm walking free, not looking at the world from the eyes of a criminal. Right. Like, I'm seeing it through the eyes of love and kindness and hope and faith and what we can accomplish in this world. And so go into the music. And I did really well very quickly in music and got signed to a label of Ferocious Records and started touring. And so I go from a prison to a stage with tons of people like, oh, my, is this really happening? This has happened. No. Manifestation is a thing. This is happening. Oh, my God. And then Covid hits, and I'm laying on my couch during COVID and I'm watching YouTube, and I see no life shack doing a music reaction. And I'm like, this guy has a million subscribers by watching other music videos. I can totally do that. So I went downstairs and I started doing, and I blew up so quickly.

[A]

So you did the same sort of idea.

[B]

I was sitting down, and I was like, you know what? I got into a big fight with a band called Mushroomhead a while ago. Let's check out Mushroomhead's new video. And I'll be completely biased or unbiased. I watch it. Boom. I hate these guys. These guys are douches. But, wow, this is a pretty good song. That thing got, like, 5,000 views for a channel that had nothing. And so I did another one and another one, and then I got introduced to Nightwish. And then, next thing you know, I've got 10,000 subscribers in 30 days. Wow. I'm like, wow. Holy crap. And then I say, no, I'm making money. People are paying me to react to this song. React to this song. Like, wait a minute. I've got so many. I don't know what to do. Well, here's 50 bucks. React to this one. Well, here's 75 bucks. React to this one. Like, so I'm starting to make really good money, and I'm blowing up on YouTube. And it started as soon as that happened. I'm like, listen, I have to tell you all something. You are worthy of the best life that you can imagine. Right? I need y' all to know I know there's somebody in this world that is hurting, that has been abused, and that got me into podcasting. Like, I need to, like, tell my story to people, because I need you to know what you're capable of. I need to know what you're. You know? And so any opportunity that I got to speak to more than one person, I'm gonna go on this tangent about what your life can be. And it resonated really well until the day I decided that I was going to leave my Kid's mother, like, I don't want to be with you anymore. And I sat her down like an adult. Let's sit down at the table. I don't want to be in this relationship anymore. And she went ballistic. Like, candle through the window. Mayhem ensues. I'm leaving. I got to get out of here. I'm not going to be in this hostile environment. I go out, get in the car. She comes out, punches me in the face, grabs my car keys, go in, lock the door. Great. This is fun. So now what? I'm gonna call the cops, obviously. That's what I'm gonna do. Cops can't do nothing. Well, we can't let her in the house. We can't do anything about it. What am I supposed to do? December 12th at Cleveland, Ohio. It's freezing out here. I'm in shorts. What do I do? Stay at a friend's house. I don't have to stay at a friend's house. It's my house. I pay for it. Nope. My buddy flew me down to Florida and just had to. I figured I would take this as an opportunity to show people that sometimes life is gonna throw hard things at you. And sometimes it's not going to go the way you want. But you only lose when you quit. If you keep getting up, let love, kindness, and compassion be your compass. You will always get up. You will always keep moving forward. Got a car, came back, got an apartment, started doing it. YouTube gets hacked, and they post porn at 3 in the morning. And YouTube just shuts my channel down. And that was, like, my sole source of income. Like, awesome. I'm gonna have to figure out what to do. And then I get. My booking manager says, I found a podcast for you to be on in England. It's called Boot Camp for the Mind and Soul. And so I get on, and there's this little blonde girl from. She's a girl. She's a woman. She's older than me. Greetings from London. And it was, like, for an hour, was the most rawest, authentic conversation I'd ever had. And so now we're married, and.

[A]

No way.

[B]

Yeah, she's my wife. Yeah, she was in England. I was in Cleveland. We started talking every day for five, six, seven hours a day. Like, look at my life. I just went through all of this, and I never felt judged by her. I felt like. And she was actually the first person I ever talked to about being raped in prison. Like, I didn't. I kept that kind of thing out of my. My life until Then because I just. I don't know, she. She's just the easiest person to talk to me. And so we ended up. A few months later, we ended up moving to Palm Springs together. And we started our cat cafe. And I found someone who has the same core as I do. We are fundamentally opposite human beings. I like loud, heavy, fast, and hard. She likes quiet, soft, calm and peaceful. But we're both at our core, kindness, compassion, and love and authenticity. And we started our cat cafe and we wrote my book. And I found a new pathway of this is where I'm most needed. It's right here. I'm most needed in these juvenile halls, in these jails. Where the abused are is where I'm needed. That's right. I don't need to be on stage and doing music. I don't need to be making videos. I need to be here with these people. Which then ends up coming full circle anyway. So I go into these juvie facilities and reaching these kids is just. It's incredible. A couple months later, I got reached out to on LinkedIn by an organization called Operation Lightshine. And I met Jim Cole, who is retired Homeland Security, founder of Project bic and just the greatest human being I think I've ever met. I tear up thinking about what this man has endured and what he's gone through. And they gave me the opportunity to come to Jacksonville to come see what they do. We went to Jacksonville for an intercept task force operation. And for the first time, I saw 50 agents from different local, state, federal law enforcement agencies that work together to find these abused kids. The kids that who I was, that are being trafficked, that are being abused behind closed doors, and nobody knows that they're there. These are the heroes that work tirelessly, that vicarious through vicarious trauma, are killing themselves to try to find these kids and save these kids. And I'm like, I never knew this existed. And so I was there with Tim Tebow. We gave this big speech to all the agents. I'm crying, they're crying. And I found my life's calling. Like, this is what I'm supposed to do.

[A]

And you share your story. And then how else are you involved in the organization?

[B]

So we started to. Jim and I do what's called the Cop and the Convict as a presentation where we show his life in contrast to my life.

[A]

That's great.

[B]

And yet here we both are in this room talking to you about these abused kids that need help. The government is not fighting this fight with us. Right? They don't care. And you can tell how much the government cares about a problem by the amount of money they spend on it.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I think the Epstein files make it very clear that they don't really care.

[B]

Lisa Phillips and I, who you've recently had on here, have been trying to get together to have a conversation for a long time. We're just not in the same spot. But that is one of the just most appalling things I've ever seen in my life. What we are watching right now in real time.

[A]

Yeah. With the release of the files.

[B]

That is happening with that, with ice, with. With all these things that are going on, we're in real time watching. And I go to Victor Frankel, right. I jump into that Victor Frankl mindset. Like, when you can no longer control your environment, you're challenged to control this. Right. What do. How. How do we be a voice in this sea of chaos to help people understand that there is a way through, there's a way out, there's a way. And that way is called love. It's kindness, it's compassion. It's love. Right? We. We are stuck in this world where whoever yells the loudest is the one that's believed. Who gets the most attention. If we all just lower our voices, right, and sit down on a human level and just talk to each other, you come to find out that we're not as different as you think. We're more alike than we are. We're more alike than we are different.

[A]

If the first instinct would be to try to understand and try to place yourself in somebody else's shoes instead of immediately judging them, the world would be so different.

[B]

If you make empathy the default, yes. The game changes. Right. If you immediately see somebody and be like, I wonder what that person has gone through that's led them to this moment. And it's probably unfair. It wasn't their fault, I promise you. It was probably. They were a victim of something and they just didn't know how to get past it. You're automatically going to be in more of a mindset to want to help that person and be more understanding of that.

[A]

Definitely.

[B]

And that's how you change the world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah. I 100 agree. And this is not hippie stuff. It's for real.

[B]

It's for real. Like, one of the things that get constantly, like. And you'll probably see this on your thing when we. When I talk about my rape, and somebody inevitably will clip that and put it out on social media, you'll see a ton of jokes, people that will make fun of my tattoo or. Or he must have liked it or he wanted it. Those are the people that are hurting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That are making those comments. And so I always approach those people. I'm never going to engage you publicly. I'll approach you privately. Those are the ones that are hurt, and they are just yelling out, dude, oh, I don't. You are doing what I want to do, and I don't know how to do it. And the only thing I know how to do is attack you because you're showing me what I can't be.

[A]

Yeah. 100%. You know, I sometimes get these very vile messages as well, and people saying really nasty things. And my first impulse is obviously to say, fuck you or something.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But sometimes. But I don't. And sometimes I actually reply and I reply with kindness. Right. And I try to sort of, jay, I'm sorry you feel this way, but I'm going to explain to you why I said this or why I did this or why this is something that's important for me, and I give a little bit of myself to that person. And you'd be like, maybe you're not shocked because you know this, but very often people write back and say, I am so sorry. I didn't mean to think. I am sorry I said that. And I really appreciate you opening up with me or sharing a little bit of you with me. And, yeah, it's just.

[B]

And that's your choice that you made that right. If you chose and gone back and been like, you, man, you. You aren't. Blah, blah, blah, they would have come back.

[A]

Oh, no, it gets worse.

[B]

And it just gets worse. If one person just comes in with love and says, yeah, you know what? It's okay. I'm sorry if. If I've offended you or if I've done something that made you feel offended, I'm sorry.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't work all the time, but sometimes it does. It doesn't. And it's. It's pretty, at least. Keeps you sort of hopeful and optimistic.

[B]

But you know what? For you, it works 100% of the time for you. It might not work for the person that you're trying to show that empathy to, but it works for you 100% of the time.

[A]

You're so right.

[B]

I've never walked away from an encounter where somebody hated me because of something they saw, where I was kind and I walked away like, oh, that dude sucked. I always walk away like, I tried. I did the best I could, and I wished him Nothing but love and light. And I walk away winning every time.

[A]

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Even in, like, traffic fights. My first thing that I love to do is when people get mad porn. I'm like, a big smile, say bye.

[B]

Sorry. I don't even know what I'm sorry for, but I am sorry. Just trying to make your day a little better. Count your blessings every day when you wake up. Some people don't have hands or fingers or feet or legs, and they can't walk, they can't move. And when you start your day off just counting your blessings, like, it. I'm such a blessed human being. Like, I would go through everything that I've been through in this book twice to have the life that I have right now.

[A]

Right. It's like that Jerry Maguire quote. Right. It's great to be alive. Agents wake up every morning saying, it's great to be alive. And that should be the message from the start of your day.

[B]

Yeah. And that's how you go forward. And, I mean, it's not a magic formula. There's really no secret sauce. The secret sauce is forgiveness. It's love, it's kindness, it's compassion, and that's it. And. And don't worry about what other people think. Right. I get a lot of that, too. Right. Like, and I think that's one of the biggest detriments. You're not going to hurt me with the comments that you're going to put in these. This comment section. You're not going to hurt me with it. What you might do is hurt the guy that's watching this, that is about to talk about his trauma, and then sees another person making fun of me and says, oh, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to talk about it. I don't want to be made fun of that. Right. And so that's what I. I wish people could understand when they make a comment on my videos or any other videos that you're not.

[A]

Do not read the comments.

[B]

All right. I'm a very healed person. You're not going to hurt me with saying things to me, but you're going to hurt the people that are watching, the other people that are reading the comments. And somebody, instead of getting that help or speaking up or seeking, he's going to remain quiet. And that's a dark path to go down.

[A]

Right, Right. It's like you said, they are the broken. Right.

[B]

Angry ones, or they're the predator.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or the other. If you can sit and make fun of somebody who has been sexually Assaulted. You're vicariously living through that. Abuser. Right? Or you're a victim. One of the. One of those two. Right, so.

[A]

So you wrote the book with your wife, right?

[B]

I did.

[A]

And it's called again, hey White Boy, Conversations of Redemption.

[B]

This book has saved a lot of lives. I. I didn't know what it would do. There was a little reservation about putting my whole life story into a book and putting it out to the world. Because now, like, anybody that wants to knows me, you know, everything about me, there it is. And so I. But I've. I've taken that on to, you know what? Like, I don't mind if my whole life is out there and known to people, because if it helps save a life, it's worth it, right?

[A]

And you get messages from people that resonated with your story.

[B]

And the, the beautiful part about it is, you know, you've heard about it a lot, like, serve first and life will bless you. And it's so true. Right? It's. I was always one of those skeptics, like, oh, yeah, okay, okay. That's for the Jesus freaks that are going to say that. But, like, my life has been so blessed since. I don't chase fame, I don't chase money, I don't chase accolades, and yet I'm getting those. I'm like, it's not. My goal here is to save a life, and I'm doing that in spade. So everything else is just a bonus. Right? It's just a benefit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I get to meet amazing people like Mariana Vanza.

[A]

Please.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, this is why I did the podcast so I could sit with amazing people like you. Sunny, this has been such a pleasure. Your message really resonates with me. The work you do is incredible. So impactful and it's so special to be able to just change so many people's lives and have an impact in so many people's lives. So I commend you.

[B]

Doing my best. Listen, you are. You're a gangster first and foremost. Like, I know grown ass gangsters, right? I've seen killers. You will go into the belly of the beast with a camera crew. Like, oh, no, I'm here. What do we do?

[A]

Do you know they tell me traffic mine at JIR show is very popular in prison prisons. I bet, I bet you left a while back. But if you.

[B]

Yeah, no, it was not. When I was there, we would have been watching it. Trust me. We used to watch things like that on Discovery Channel.

[A]

Like, yeah, I get.

[B]

You would have been one of those

[A]

different people in prison.

[B]

I bet. Thank you so much for having me.

[A]

Thank you Sunny. Such a pleasure.

[B]

I appreciate it.

[A]

Thank you for coming on the Hidden Third.

[B]

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