From Addict to Ironman | The Hidden Third with Mariana van Zeller

Summary

The Hidden Third with Mariana van Zeller

Episode: From Addict to Ironman
Date: November 12, 2025
Guest: Dr. Rob Archuleta, Founder of Addict to Athlete

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Overview

This episode explores the harrowing journey of Rob Archuleta: from a methamphetamine addiction that consumed over a decade of his life, to his reinvention as an Ironman triathlete, licensed addiction counselor, and founder of Addict to Athlete. Host Mariana van Zeller and Rob open up about addiction, recovery, survivor’s guilt, and how endurance athletics became the backbone of a unique recovery movement. The conversation goes deep into the roots of addiction, the stigma that persists, the challenges within the rehab industry, and the transformative power of purpose and community.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Rob’s Upbringing and Early Struggles

• Background and Identity:

  • Rob grew up in a small Colorado town in a loving but typical Hispanic family, often a "latchkey kid" (02:00).
  • Pop culture was a powerful influence: “I was raised by MTV back then... I talk about Depeche Mode, who, like, created who I am, the good and the bad.” (02:00)

• Early Trauma and Sexual Identity:

  • Rob describes sexual abuse by a male family member, resulting in confusion about his sexual identity but not direct guilt or shame (02:43–05:07).
  • “I came out as heterosexual because what felt natural to me was... being gay. And so I feel like it took a leap to go, oh, no, this is who I am.” (05:00)

Entry into Drug Use and Meth Addiction

• Looking for Belonging:

  • Lack of purpose and tribe: “I think our addiction problem in the United States stems from lack of purpose.” (05:20)
  • The club/rave scene became a welcoming community: “It’s where I found my tribe, with open arms.” (07:04)

• Path to Meth:

  • Initial exposure was through the club scene—first alcohol and LSD at age 21, but strong attraction to the experience and community (07:41).
  • “Meth is the Bruce Lee of other drugs, because it will kick the other drugs’ asses out of your life. I did meth, and I was instantly hooked.” (08:31)
  • Rob vividly describes his first experience: “I felt euphoric... You feel invincible... It really felt like, man, this is what I’ve been looking for my whole life.” (10:01)
  • Addiction rapidly escalated, with snorting shifting to smoking, leading to total dysfunction (11:10–11:52).

Addiction’s Impact and Rock Bottom

• Daily Functioning and Decline:

  • Held jobs while using, notably selling women’s shoes in Vegas, but eventually paranoia, physical health deterioration (teeth falling out, face picking), and losing ties to family set in (13:29–14:32).
  • “That job was so fun... but I was energetic, charismatic, funny, confident, just, like, everything just came easy, like, I always had energy, and so it would. That’s the seduction of it, right? It works till it doesn’t.” (14:11)

• Creativity and Insomnia:

  • Meth enabled a hyper-creative phase but made Rob lose touch with reality and self-care (16:24).
  • He recounts a lifelong battle with insomnia, which drugs initially seemed to “solve.”

• Consequences and Turning Point:

  • Escalating criminal behavior (e.g., forging temp tags), estrangement from family, and encounters with law enforcement (17:53–19:00).
  • The real turning point: Grandmother’s last words—“pull your shit together”—followed by her death. “I never had an irreversible consequence... Never being able to get my grandmother back… was enough to say stop.” (20:19–24:10)
  • Symbolic act: Gluing sobriety chips to his grandmother’s gravestone (24:58).

Notable Quote:

“That's why I always tell people it's consequences, not when—because consequence is abstract. I might get in trouble. Or I could for sure be high and have fun. And so I always went for the for sure thing and never got clean.”
— Rob (19:00)

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Recovery: From Meth to Ironman

• Detox and the Struggle with Anhedonia:

  • Rob quit meth cold turkey—a rare feat—helped by forced sobriety due to a snowstorm and isolation after his grandmother’s death.
  • Describes post-addiction anhedonia: “You do not feel pleasure. You do not feel well. Nothing brings you joy.” (39:13)
  • Gained significant weight: “I went from like 155 pounds to like 260 in three months.” (30:13)

• From Food Addiction to Exercise:

  • “I substituted one addiction for another—absolutely. Once that's... That's harder to recover from than addiction was for me.” (31:27)
  • Eating disorders and weight struggles are deeply complex, sometimes harder to address than drug addictions (31:53).

• Discovering Athletics as Healing:

  • Pre-workout supplements and running helped break the anhedonia (41:39–42:41).
  • The foundation of Addict to Athlete—using shared exercise and group “meetings” in parks and gyms to support recovery (42:47–43:51).
  • “People who have been through addiction... are really good at endurance sports, really willing to do endurance sports.” (44:24)

Memorable Moment:

“The reason it's called Suffer Well is because that's what we say in endurance sports before we race. We're like, suffer well because you're gonna suffer... Suffer well. We're not going to escape life without suffering. Suffering is relative and everybody does it differently, but we know what it's like to suffer well.”
— Rob (47:38)

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The Science and Power of Athletic Recovery

• Community, Purpose, and Identity:

  • Rob stresses that religion and exercise endure in recovery because “there is no finish line.” (45:37–46:02)

• Research and Outcomes:

  • Addict to Athlete conducted a four-year independent study, with results showing participants fared as well or better than traditional treatment (45:00).
  • Endurance sports offer a “superpower” for many in recovery, channeling formerly destructive drive into achievement.

• Risks of Addiction Transfer:

  • Both speakers recognize the potential for exercise addiction, but agree it's far healthier than drug dependency. “Because of all the addictions I've had, someone told me, 'You do everything but meth.' You're right, I do everything but meth.” (49:26)

On Stigma, Treatment, and Systemic Problems

• Societal Stigma and Moral Judgements:

  • The episode analyzes the moral model of addiction, discussing stigma especially in hospitals and for pregnant mothers with substance use disorder (35:44–37:10).
  • “If you care about the baby, care about the mom. You have to do both.” (35:56)

• Addiction Is Not Choice:

  • “The biggest misunderstanding is that it's choice... What recovery implies is that something was normal at baseline, then it got jacked up and then you recover... But so many people were born into addiction... We're asking them to be reborn into a society and a life they've never experienced.” (81:16)
  • Understanding circumstances and childhood environments is critical.

• Flaws in the Rehab System:

  • Medicaid billing, lack of funding, and perverse incentives (e.g., urine testing “liquid gold,” profiteering in the rehab industry) are major problems (70:05–75:13).
  • “Anytime we have a payer dictating treatment... that's problematic.” (75:13)

• Finding Solutions:

  • Calls for prevention, person-centered care, integrated fitness and nutrition, and workforce development (78:56–79:32).
  • Refers to the promise and limitations of decriminalization efforts without proper infrastructure, comparing Portugal and Oregon (75:18–76:11).

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Survivor’s Guilt, Imposter Syndrome, and Gratitude

• Ongoing Struggles:
  • Rob still feels imposter syndrome and survivor’s guilt: “I almost feel ashamed when people call me Dr. Rob... How come so many of my friends died?” (58:34)
• Living in Gratitude:
  • “Sometimes I wake up, I look at my dog, and I'm like, I fucking love you. Do you know what I mean? Like, I love you. You make my life better... I look at my house... I get to run, and I’m so grateful... Not having money, not having drugs... And to be where I am now, it's real.” (00:00/58:34)

Notable Quote:

"I think people that have been through hell, that make it out the other side, we want to do that. Like, we want to look at everything and say, thank you... Thank you for just giving me this last chance.”
— Rob (61:39)

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Notable Quotes

• On the Ironman Mentality:

  “When I'm doing that and people are dying and stressed, I'm like, dude, I used to walk from one end of Vegas to the other in the heat with combat boots... Like, this has got aid stations.” (46:56)

• On Life After Recovery:

  “You may feel like you don't deserve this, but also understanding that you don't deserve bad… Remind them that they could have what they want… they deserve life, they deserve happiness.” (68:00)

• On Stigma and Social Judgment:

  “Nobody wants to be judged for their worst moment or defined by the worst moment. And with social media and society, how often do we judge people by their worst?” (65:47)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Rob’s Background & Early Trauma: 02:00–05:19
• First Drug Use & Quest for Community: 05:20–09:14
• First Experience with Meth: 09:16–11:52
• Consequences and Hitting Rock Bottom: 17:53–24:10
• Turning Point—Grandmother’s Last Words: 20:19–24:10
• Post-Detox Challenges (Weight, anhedonia): 30:13–41:39
• Birth of Addict to Athlete: 42:47–44:26
• Endurance Sports as Recovery: 45:00–47:38
• On Stigma & Systemic Challenges in Treatment: 35:44–41:39, 69:41–81:08
• Survivor’s Guilt and Imposter Syndrome: 58:34–65:36
• Final Thoughts: Addiction as Rebirth, Not Recovery: 81:16–84:59

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Final Thoughts

This raw, insightful episode highlights the deep humanity and complexity behind addiction and recovery. Rob’s story underscores the necessity of purpose, community, understanding, and innovative, individualized approaches—not just abstinence—for real recovery.
At its heart, the conversation calls for compassion, an end to stigma, and recognition that those who have “been through hell” and come out the other side have a unique strength to share with the world.

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Further resources:

• Rob Archuleta’s book: Suffer Well: A Tale of Inspiration, Determination, and Perspiration.
• Addict to Athlete: [Website Link Provided on Show]
• Follow Mariana van Zeller for more episodes of The Hidden Third.

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Transcript

[A]

I truly think that people that have been in recovery and walk the line of recovery, we live in gratitude. Sometimes I wake up, I look at my dog, and I'm like, I fucking love you. Do you know what I mean? Like, I love you. You make my life better. I look at my house, you know, I get to run, and I'm just so grateful to my wife, to my brother, to my family. I'm just like, I love you guys so much. I'm so grateful for. That's my table, you know, that's my tv. Like, look where I live, you know, Like, I get to see. Celebrate all that. Sometimes I walk in, I have a mountain bike. I have a gravel bike. I have a triathlon bike. How did that happen? Like, I don't deserve this, but I do deserve it, right?

[B]

I think we should all do that more often.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All of us, regardless. I mean, I think we should look around us and realize just how lucky we are.

[A]

I think people that have been through hell that. That make it out the other side, we want to do that. Like, we want to look at everything and say, thank you. Thank you for, like, just the universe, God, whatever. Thank you for just giving me this last chance to get all this. I'm Robert Archuleta. Rob Archuleta. I have a PhD in human behavior. I'm a licensed addiction counselor. I'm recovering methamphetamine addict, and then also I'm an Ironman triathlete. The founder of Addict to Athlete, a program that helps people get sober by using athletics. I. I've done ultramarathons, CrossFit, we do a little bit of everything. So I've kind of done a lot of stuff in a short amount of time, actually. I'm 52, so. A long time. Yes.

[B]

And you reached out to me and you wrote a little bit about your story, and I found it fascinating. I'm always super interested in people who can turn their lives around so dramatically, like you did so drastically and become an inspiration and start doing so much good for people around you. So that's why I wanted to have you on.

[A]

Yeah. Well, thank you for having me. It's like, an honor to be here. And like I said before, it's surreal because I've seen you on YouTube, on my TV, and then to be here, so.

[B]

Well, I'm so. I'm so happy to have you. Okay, so tell me how. Tell me a little bit about how you grew up, where you grew up, and what was your upbringing.

[A]

Yeah, so I grew up in a small town in Colorado. I'm Hispanic. Just Hispanic. Typical Hispanic parents. I'm a mama's boy, you know, Grew up, you know, with both parents working. I was latchkey kid. So my brother and I, you know, we were home alone by ourselves. Pretty much raised by MTV back then. So I got, you know, really into pop culture. So I'm a pop culture fanatic. I talk about it, you know, in my book. I talk about Depeche Mode, who.

[B]

Like, I love Depeche Mode.

[A]

Like, they created who I am, the good and the bad. And so, like, just a pretty typical, normal childhood. I mean, I had some traumatic experiences, but I don't really blame them for anything that I went through.

[B]

Do you mind if I ask about your traumatic.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So. And it's funny because. And I'm going to reference my book is because in my book, I say, uh, you know, I didn't give the origin story right. Like. And I said, nobody needs another Batman origin story. Everybody knows he's Batman. His parents died. It's over. And I'm not comparing myself to Batman, but I didn't go into detail about it, but I struggled. I had a family member struggle with some sexual abuse, which really confused me about my sexual identity, who I was, what I liked, what I didn't like. And it was. It was a very loving, caring relationship. So it was very confusing. It wasn't traumatic, though, in the way that you hear other people talk about it. Traumatic. I think the traumatic part of it was that I, like, I missed it, maybe, or, you know, felt like it was real, and then all of a sudden it wasn't, you know.

[B]

So how old were you?

[A]

I mean, it's hard with that because I can't. I don't want to say it wrong, but from, like, 11 to, like, 5 years old, something like that.

[B]

From 5 to 11 years old. Right. Well, that's very, very, very young.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's interesting that you mentioned, like, the idea that you. You missed it. Right. Because it is. I think people think. I don't want to go too deep into.

[A]

No, no, no. Yeah.

[B]

I think people sometimes think that it's if you're being victimized, if you're being abused, that you immediately, in your mind, it's very clear what is happening to you, but a lot of times it's not. And people sort of might think that that is actually love or that it was, or. Or there's a lot of shame and a lot of guil where people actually start thinking, maybe it was my fault and maybe I did something to warrant this.

[A]

I think for me, it was confusion. It wasn't guilt or shame now. I mean, now that I'm older, it's a little traumatic maybe, but it was more confusion. Like, you know, am I straight? Am I gay? Like, this was a very loving, caring relationship. This is my first experiences, right? And then moving on to, you know, being an adult and trying to figure out my sexual identity, what I was attracted to. It was very confusing because I would say I came out as heterosexual because what felt natural to me was. Was being a homosexual or being gay. And so, like, I. I feel like it took a. A leap to go, oh, no, this is who I am.

[B]

Was it. Was it a man?

[A]

Yes. Wow.

[B]

That's an. Okay. So it sort of confused the rest of your life.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And you're still dealing with it, or.

[A]

No, no, not at all. Like, I. I really have done, and I think that's the part of recovery is doing a lot of the work that kind of gets. But that was never the reason that I use drugs and alcohol or got into any of that.

[B]

So how did that start?

[A]

It started with an obsession with pop culture, right? Like the movie less than zero in the 80s, Robert Downey Jr. When a lot of people saw movies like that, they were like, oh, I don't ever want to do that. And my brain was like, I totally want to do that. Like, I want to wear eyeliner and go to a dance club, you know? And so I think a big part of it for me was I was good in sports, but not great. I was okay in school, but not interested. And I say this all the time. Like, I think our addiction problem in the United States stems from lack of purpose. And I had no direction or purpose, and I was confused, and I didn't know who I want, what I wanted to do. And the rave scene, the club scene, it just has open arms. It takes you in. And then I started experimenting with lsd, and that led to other drugs. And, you know, it's.

[B]

So it's where you found your community?

[A]

In many ways, it's where I found.

[B]

My community because I think it's a lot about lack of purpose and also lack of community, Right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

There's. Have you even. Scott Galloway? Do you know Scott Galloway? He has a podcast with Kareth Swisher. He has his own podcast, and he just actually wrote a book which talks about this. It talks about how basically young men are a little lost right now, and there's a real crisis with young men, and a lot of it Is because usually people. I'm gonna butcher this, but the idea is that people usually find community through religion or family or Boy Scouts or whatever it is. The groups that gives people a sense of belonging and community. And those are really lacking in today's society. And I am, you know, I think it's worse now than it was before, but I think that you're. It's true what you're saying, that when you don't have a purpose and you don't find a community and a group, a sense of belonging, that you can drift.

[A]

Yeah, no, that. That's exactly. I was looking for a tribe and I found a tribe. Yeah, right. I found a tribe with open arms, you know, that didn't care if I was confused, that didn't care if I looked gothic one day, like a rave kid the next day, you know. And honestly, first experience with LSD was terrible. I got a bad experience. But the second one, the very next day, which already tells you my personality, I had a bad experience. Cried, threw Pepsi all over my friend's car like it was at a Lords of Acid concert. It was the first time I drank is the same. The first time I did lsd.

[B]

The first time you drank alcohol.

[A]

The first time I drank alcohol, I was. I was actually 20, like 21 when I first fell into it. What?

[B]

The first time you drank alcohol, I.

[A]

Was 21 and then did LSD that same day.

[B]

Were you the best, like, behaved kid that's ever existed?

[A]

And that's the crazy thing is I was. I worse when I wasn't high and when I wasn't using. And the first time I did lsd, like, it was bad. Then the next day I did it again. And then I. I was like, well, it had a really great experience. I was listening to like trip hop, Portishead music. I had a black light going. I was at my house.

[B]

I loved Portishead.

[A]

Yeah. See? And then. And you know how soothing that music is. And it was the first time I looked at a tree and thought, like, there could be a God. That's a beautiful tree, you know, like the world is beautiful. And I saw it from a different lens. And that actually like made me want to learn and read. And that one experience, like changed my whole perspective on life. But I was doing it, like when people would drink, I would do that. And then eventually.

[B]

So people were drinking alcohol and I.

[A]

Was tripping acid every time. If we went to the show, we went to the movies, people were drinking, I was doing lsd. And so that eventually gets played Out. You're just trying to not have a bad trip after a while. And that led to other drugs. And then I always say this, meth is the Bruce Lee of other drugs, because it will kick the other drugs asses out of your life. I did meth, and I was instantly hooked, which is why the Not Even Once campaign is a great campaign. Because once you do it, I say it's like looking behind the curtain and seeing heaven and feeling heaven. And I say that all the time. And people always go, you're doing a commercial for meth. I'm like, but nobody gets addicted to things that suck. Like, we have to acknowledge that people.

[B]

Should know that this is good, or else people wouldn't be.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So tell me about your first time. Where were you? Who gave it to you? How did that happen?

[A]

I got into getting tattoos, and I was at a tattoo shop, and this was like, late 90s, early 2000s, and I was at a tattoo shop and getting tattooed, hanging out some biker dudes that did tattoos. And, you know, I had done cocaine before, and he pulled it out and he said, try this. And the minute I did it.

[B]

Wait, wait. And he didn't tell you what it was?

[A]

No, he told me.

[B]

Oh. He said, try this.

[A]

But I didn't even know. Like, we didn't. There was no Internet back then. You know, I didn't have dare when I was in school. I just, like, must be like cocaine. You snort it. And the minute I did it.

[B]

And you snorted it.

[A]

I snorted it, yeah. And the minute I did it, like, my face was on fire. It was a different drug back then. It, like, burned the inside of my nose, and I was like, oh, my God, I hate that. And then the minute it hit, I was like, oh, my God, I love that.

[B]

What did you feel?

[A]

I felt euphoric. Like, it's just. You feel euphoric. You feel invincible. You feel. I didn't have, like, that paranoia. I felt, like, super confident, like I could achieve anything. It really felt like, man, this is. This is what I've been looking for my whole life. It was that. It was instantly that. And then I've always struggled with my weight. And then the continued use of methamphetamine, I started getting skinnier. I started getting attention from people.

[B]

So then how often did you start taking. Using it?

[A]

Every chance I got after that. It's every chance I got.

[B]

So every day or every.

[A]

It eventually turned into every day over years. But in the beginning, it was whenever I could get it. Where would you get it from? From bikers. And, you know, you meet one guy at the tattoo shop and then he has a friend, and then he has another friend, and you kind of just start like looking for it. And. And I remember there was even a point where the guy that gave it to me the first time was like, dude, stop. Like you're. You're already too into it. And so there was a brief time where I stopped because I was in between, like, figuring out what I was going to do with my life. But then I started getting into the club scene and the rave scene. It was right back in it.

[B]

And were you snorting it the whole time?

[A]

Snorting it the whole time. And then my life got bad when I started smoking it. That's a whole different drug.

[B]

Yeah. What is the difference?

[A]

So for. For one, the difference is like, there's this fixation, having the pipe, loading the pipe. There's a ritual that goes with it. Just like injecting and then it's like having a cigarette. Right. Like, I just could not put the pipe down. And then. You can't be a functioning addict when you have to have the pipe. And there was times where I'd VIP to nightclubs and we're sitting in the car hitting the pipe instead of going into the club, because that's where we couldn't take the pipe in the club. You know what I mean? And so snorting it. I was still functioning. I was reading, I was working, I was doing other stuff. When I started smoking it, it was all down hill.

[B]

So at this point, you're. You're using it all the time.

[A]

Yeah, at that point.

[B]

And were you. So were you working at the time?

[A]

Were you stuck? So it's interesting. So I left Colorado. I went to Vegas with a band. We were going to be famous.

[B]

And did you play or sing?

[A]

We. I sang.

[B]

Oh, great.

[A]

I pretended like I could see, but we did electronic music.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so the club scene and we played raves out there and we had several great opportunities, but we were so into the scene that we forgot our passion for music. And, you know, the drug just sucked me.

[B]

Were you all using at that time?

[A]

Everybody that I knew was using. Really?

[B]

And everybody was using meth. It was met.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And what was. What was the name of the band?

[A]

The name of our band was. It's so it was God complex.

[B]

God complex.

[A]

Yeah. And it was taken from a movie with Alec Baldwin. And there's a part where he's a doctor and he. He says when some. Something. To the extent he says something like when you're when your wife or your kids in surgery and you're praying to God, you're actually praying to me. And then I was like, whoa, that was. And. And then the lady, whoever he's talking to, said, you have a God complex. And I felt like, we're the masters of our destiny. We have a God complex. You know, like, when you're young and stupid. And that became the name of our band.

[B]

How often were you playing?

[A]

We were not. We were playing at our house all the time. Right. Just tweaking and playing. But we played raves. We played a couple clubs. We played. We had some, like, really successful nights where people were like, when's the next one? But we just. Just could not get it together.

[B]

Because you were using drugs.

[A]

You were just using drugs. And. And then I was also working at Macy's and, you know, selling women's shoes, making a ton of money, and would.

[B]

You go to work completely high? Totally.

[A]

I. I just. Because that job was so fun and selling women's shoes on the strip in Vegas. Right. And meeting people and they want to get VIP and they want to know you. And, you know, we had a cool look, all me and all my friends that work there. And so then I wanted to be at work, but I wanted to be at the club. And every night there was a different club. And so I just was like, have to use because. Because you can't sleep. Yeah, yeah. When am I going to sleep? So I would go like three, four days and then crash when I had a day off and then go right back into it.

[B]

So you go, like, straight from night clubbing from clubbing to Macy's to self.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes straight from there.

[B]

And nobody suspected that you were a different world there.

[A]

Yeah. In the end, I did start getting the paranoia and picking my face and my teeth started falling out on. My teeth are fake. But it was years and years before that happened. A lot of it was. I was energetic, charismatic, funny, confident. Just, like, everything just came easy. Like, I always had energy, and so it would. That's the seduction of it, right? I. It. Like I say, it works till it doesn't.

[B]

Right. Did you have a wife or girlfriend?

[A]

I had friends, several girlfriends.

[B]

And, you know.

[A]

No, no. But that is something. That is something. Let me tell you. It's. It's. It's interesting that you say that, because meth freed me to experiment with that, to experiment with my sexuality. Because when I was high, I was like, you know, maybe I want to be with. Have a boyfriend. Maybe I want to have a girlfriend. And that. That experience is how I found out. No, I want to be with women. So I did. I. I did have a really brief marriage that lasted no time, but I had always been my wife. Now Sheena had always kind of been my soulmate. I knew her from Colorado. She lived in Vegas with this for a while. She came back. She was addicted to crack cocaine. She's sober now as well.

[B]

Was she addicted to crack at the same time as you were addicted to meth?

[A]

And would you do.

[B]

Would you use drugs at the same time together while she was doing crack?

[A]

Yes. And so different. Like, I would do meth and run around everywhere and start taking stuff apart, cleaning the house or whatever she would do. And I know she always says, even in my book, she's like, leave my life out of your book. But she wouldn't care if I shared this. But she would smoke crack and just stare out the window. And so people would like, you guys are using. I'm like, we really don't use the same thing. People don't understand that.

[B]

Did she ever try meth and did you ever try.

[A]

She did. She. I smoked crack, but I didn't. It's just too expensive. I just didn't like it. And she tried method and got really paranoid and gave her car away. And then she told me, I can't talk to you anymore because now I know what you're on and I don't want to, you know. So she actually took a break from me after trying it one time, and she didn't do it with me. She did it with somebody else that she was partying with and gave her car. She got paranoid. She's like, I thought they were going to kill me. I gave my car away. And so it was. It was super interesting that she had that reaction. And then her reaction internalizing was like, that's what you're like. That's what's going on in your head. I can't be around you.

[B]

Okay. Yeah. So, yeah, there is a creativity side too. Matt, can you talk about that?

[A]

So. So one, like, you're just so extremely confident. You really tap into who you are. I felt like I was tapping into who I. Who I was and having the confidence to try to sing, to try to do art, to try to write, to try to do. You feel like you're invincible. So whether you are good at it or not, you try it and you think you're good at it, but then you find out what you like. And so there was a very creative part of It. And then for me, I've always struggled with insomnia. I've always struggled with my. And with that, I didn't have to sleep anymore, and I didn't have to, you know, worry about my weight. I got thin, and people were telling me how great I looked, you know, and so they reinforced that. And then, you know, insomnia is a terrible disease. People don't really understand. But I remember being a little kid and watching my brother sleep and praying, like, I was raised Catholic, like, please, God, make me fall asleep. And then I started developing anxiety. Like, why can't I sleep? I'm up all night. And then during the day, you have to be functional. Even, like, I, and I'm talking like third, fourth grade. I've just always struggled with sleeping.

[B]

Do you still.

[A]

Not as much now because I'm so active, I just crash by the end of the day. I mean, that's a great part of being old, is I just fall down and fall asleep.

[B]

Being old, but also being an ultra marathoner.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that too. That too.

[B]

And you're not old. Let me just say that.

[A]

Yeah. And challenging that channeling.

[B]

Okay, so what was a, what was a point that you realized, okay, this is, like, everybody around you noticed that you were, you had a drug problem and you had, like, when did it, how bad did it get?

[A]

It got so bad that I was not talking to my family, not talking to my parents. 911 happened. I got in trouble with the law. Like, my parents had helped me get a car. I was making fake temp tags on Photoshop before anybody knew what Photoshop was.

[B]

You were doing what?

[A]

Making temp tags. Like a fake, like, new car temp tag. And so, you know, you pretend, like, pretend license plates. Like, yeah, like, so, so, you know, like, when you buy a new car, they give you a paper one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I was making those on Photoshop. Like, my car was brand new. I just never got plates.

[B]

And why?

[A]

Just because I didn't. Because you have to go stand in line and I'm high and I'm partying and having fun so that you didn't.

[B]

Have to get a license because at the time you had stand in line to go get one. Okay. Yeah.

[A]

And so I just didn't want to, I didn't want to spend the money, you know, and I was making temp tags and I, I got pulled over on 9 12. The day after 9 11, I got pulled over for the first time and. And I just fell apart. Like, I, I, the cop pulled me over and I instantly said, like, I don't have insurance. I don't. That's fake tag. Like, because I was like, wanting to get in trouble for that and not anything else that might have been in the car. I don't remember what I had in there. I just remember that's what I was thinking at the time. And that was my first, like, real run in with the law. And then just realizing, like, man, this could go really bad really fast. But I continued to use. I just started being careful. Like, you think, okay, I'm just not gonna. I'm just not gonna get in trouble. And I. I think I did like 30 days in jail. The cop said, you or the judge said, you owe me 30. $100 is what it would have been. So you owe me 31 days. A hundred dollars a day. That's a good deal. Do it. I could see how people get institutionalized because I started, like, feeling relaxed. Like, I just could be me. I don't have to look for anything. You know, that was a very quick run in, you know, But I just never got better. Like, it wasn't enough to make. Like, that's why I always tell people it's consequences, not when. Because consequence is abstract. I might get in trouble. Or I could for sure be high and have fun. And so I always went for the for sure thing and never got clean.

[B]

And then for sure getting high for sure. Feeling good about. Feeling good about life instead of perhaps getting caught.

[A]

Maybe consequence. Right. Maybe I'll get in trouble. But.

[B]

So how do you switch that? If you talk to people about this and this part of your, you know, you teach people how to get better. How do you. What is. What is it that you do to your brain to switch that?

[A]

Yeah. So can you do so. So a part of that. I feel like you do have to have an. A moment that changes your life. And so for me, and I talk about the stages of change in my book, and I don't know if you're familiar, but it's like pre contemplative. Contemplative preparation, action and maintenance. And so I was very pre contemplative. And then the first time I bec. Contemplative about stopping was my grandmother was sick and she was. Meant the world to me. And one of the last things she said to me was like, he thought, I wish I could put you on my knee and spank you. Please pull your together. And then she died right after that. And so I was high when she said that, and then I stayed high. And then when I came down. It's just the perfect storm. There was a snowstorm. I couldn't really get back to anywhere. I started to sober up for the first time in 10, 11 years, whatever it was. And I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm just done. And, you know, so for. For me, like, I started realizing, and I always say this, the 12 step groups like AA and NA say if you don't stop using drugs, you're going to be in jails, institutions, or death. Right? And then I always add a fourth one. Or your mom's house, Right? And so I. Yeah, and I talked about that in the Vice article. And, you know, I said, you know, when you're 31 years old and you're in your high school bedroom, because I came back to Colorado with my tail between my legs. I was in my high school bedroom looking at, you know, Yoda freaking blankets. You know what I mean? And so I'm like, this is bad. Right? But I had never had an irreversible consequence. Like, you could lose your girlfriend. And I don't mean to sound like it doesn't, but you lose friends, you lose cars. I lost my music equipment to pawn shops, but I always was like, I'll get it back. Like, I'm. But never being able to get my grandmother back and for her to pass away thinking that I was. I was an addict. Like, I'm just a piece of. Do you know what I mean? That's probably what she was thinking. Like, where did we go wrong? I know that's what my mom and dad and my brother were thinking. Like, what happened?

[B]

So at this point, your parents fully knew that you were.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. And they were trying to help, and they actually found out because I dropped meth in their house.

[B]

How so? What do you mean?

[A]

I had it in my pocket and I was visiting and I dropped it and I had to come clean because my brother had a son and I was worried his son was going to find it. But I came halfway clean.

[B]

So you told him, hey, I dropped.

[A]

I don't know where it is. Friend gave me drugs to hold, and I dropped it at your house. And they. And they had a friend test it, and they knew it was meth and that their friend was a cop. Was like, he needs to come in. We'll help him. And I was like, I'm not going in. You know, like, it's not mine. It's my friends, you know? So I came.

[B]

And your parents knew this.

[A]

They had to know, like, at that point there's like, no, you. You can't turn a blind eye when it's in the house.

[B]

And at this point, was it the point that you were already kind of like your teeth were going, oh, yeah, you're scratching your face.

[A]

Yeah. Scratching my face. My teeth. It's interesting enough, my teeth really started falling out, like, the first year I got sober. I mean, I had a couple missing ones in the back and just not taking care of myself. I have a couple scars left from picking my face.

[B]

And is that common that. That your teeth start falling out after you become sober?

[A]

No, I don't. You know, I think. I think it just was. You know, maybe it's because I was eating again. I wasn't really using my teeth for anything, you know? And then all of a sudden, you start eating again and putting pressure on them and eating solid food. I mean, I'm proof that you could live on 7, 11 big bomb burritos and Cheetos for years. Because that's what I did. Wow.

[B]

For how many years for.

[A]

It's a lot years. Like, nine, ten years. Yeah. I was out there.

[B]

So you're using math for that long? For that long, 10 years, yeah.

[A]

Every time, like, I run too hard or something happens with my heart or I have anxiety or I get a kidney stone, I'm like, yep. I knew it was coming. Like, you know, I knew.

[B]

I knew I did this to my body.

[A]

Yeah. And it kind of gave me a really positive attitude about it. And I. And I know I'm going through this really fast, but when my. When my grandmother died, I never had an irreversible consequence. Now is enough to say stop.

[B]

I had a very. My grandmother passed away two years ago, and I had a very, very close relationship with her as well. She meant the world to me. And I get emotional always when I talk about her. Every time. But it's the same thing. Like, I can only imagine. Yeah. Being in your position, if she had ever said something like that to me, it would have rocked my world.

[A]

Yeah, it did. And I was already rattling around in my head. And then when I got the call that she died, I was devastated. Right. And high. Coming down, been up for. And then getting that information on top of it. I actually. To honor her, I. I have, like, around 20 years sobriety. Like, the dates all blur. Right. But I take my chips from the first time I started going to aa, getting the sobriety coins, and I glue them to her gravestone.

[B]

Really.

[A]

So I put the chips in. So it's. It's really great to look back because I remember putting the first one on there and then gluing the second one on there. And now her. Her gravestones covered with, you know, so incredible. So that's like my way of saying, like, hey, I did it.

[B]

That's amazing. Wow. What, What, What a beautiful sort of gift to her too, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's amazing. And so at the. At the peak, it was all the time you were. Were you able. How were you even able to pay? Because at this point, I can't. You weren't working.

[A]

Yeah. So I have. I have a couple great stories, you know. So another thing that happened, and I talk about it in, in the book is another thing that happened, happened is I was at a house with a bunch of girls and we're partying and getting high and they were just getting so intense and loud and I got a little paranoid. And this was right before my grandmother said that to me. And I walked out and it was like 2 o'. Clock. I mean, I thought it was 2 o' clock in the morning. It was actually 7 o' clock in the morning. And I walked to downtown. I go, I got to get out of this house. You are making me crazy. And I walked to 711 and I could see people with their hair wet. They smelled like cologne, they smelled like fresh. They're on their way to work. There's guys with their hair slicked back in downtown Denver. They just look like they have a life, right? And in my head I'm thinking, these suckers. Like, I'm going back to a house full of a bunch of girls and we're partying and these guys are on their way to work, right? And so I'm standing behind this guy of change in my pocket, and I hear him say, and whatever this guy wants.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

And so I go, what? Like offended? Like what? Like I don't need your charity. And I'll never forget. And he wasn't like an intimidating tough guy. He turned around and he goes, you need it? And put his. His fin finger right here. Wow. He said, you need it And I have it. Get what you want. And then I go, okay, I want. Because I wanted stuff. So I was like, okay, I'll get a big slam and Pepsi and I'll get a donut.

[B]

Was it the burritos in the fridge?

[A]

Yeah, Cheetos. And yeah. It's like, get whatever you want. So I got it. And then I was like, that was really nice. And he just, you know, I remember him saying that. And I'm walking home and I'm like, what must I look like to him? That he must have been in recovery. I wish I could find that guy.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, a real humbling experience. You went from thinking you're the chef.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I'm like this charismatic, like, guy from, you know, that partied in Vegas, you know, and now all of a sudden, like, I'm this dude that people are buying stuff for. And so that was already kind of rattling around my head, kind of little pre contemplative. And then my grandmother said that, and then that happened, and that was like. That was the turning point for me.

[B]

So what? So it's the pre contemplative. The contemplative.

[A]

So pre contemplative, when you're not even thinking about it, contem. When you are thinking about it, preparation, when you're preparing to change.

[B]

So the preparation started after your grandmother died.

[A]

So it's funny because I never did preparation. So it should. It should be preparation, action, maintenance. I went from contemplation to action because when my grandmother died, I was like, I'm done. I'm done.

[B]

And what was the action that.

[A]

So the action was I stopped using. I started going to 12 step meetings.

[B]

Did you. Did you have to go through detox or you just called turkey?

[A]

No, I was detoxing already because of the snowstorm and my grandmother passing away. I was at the funeral, and so I just didn't have access to it. I was in another town where. Than where my dealer lived. We got snowed in. I was having trouble getting back. When I did get back, I almost just drove to, like, to Denver and turned around and was like, I'm done. Like. Like I had this moment of clarity where I was like, what. What do you. Like, how old am I? You know? Like, what am I doing? You know? And it just hit me.

[B]

Stopping cold turkey like you did is not common, I'm sure.

[A]

No, but I always. I don't know.

[B]

I mean, from opioids, I know it's not.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Meth. What is. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I think it. I think it's rare because it's so hard to get meth up. And we could talk about anhedonia and all that stuff, but yeah, it's so hard to give up. But people always say, like, they exaggerate. They go, my best day sober is better than my best day high, right? Or my worst day sober is better.

[B]

Than my best day high, right?

[A]

And I always say, no, my best day sober kicks. My best day high kicks. My best day Sober's ass all over the place, right? But my worst day high is a million times better than, you know, worse than my worst day sober. And so for me, I just. It was so bad when my grandmother died that I was like, I don't want to feel that again. Do you know what I mean?

[B]

And so, and what's detoxing like, from meth?

[A]

So it was a lot of eating sugar, a lot of, like, drinking sugar water, a lot of just consuming everything. A lot of sleeping, a lot of, like, feeling up and down, depressed, hopelessness.

[B]

What about physical pain, like with opiates, so. Or alcohol?

[A]

So physically, I, I feel like I. I always call it when I'm working with patients now you're thawing out and so, like, everything starts to hurt. Like, you know, you realize you've been doing this. I used to have my, My tongue pierced, and I realized that I'd been chewing on that ring for 11 years. So I had a silver in my teeth and holes where I was always, like, chomping on it, you know, My fingernails, I used to have fake fingernails. They. They never grew back. They just kind of fell off. And, you know, from chewing or from, from just lack of nutrition, probably, you know, whatever it was, they just never healed. Healed. And so you start healing and you start noticing the things about you, you know? And then I got real puffy. I. I went from like 155 pounds to like two 60 in like three months.

[B]

Three months.

[A]

I got really obese. And then it kept going up and going up and going. And because my mom is a Hispanic mom and her heat goes home and she's making burritos, and every day was Thanksgiving for the first 90 days, she just. And meal time is family time.

[B]

Was it because she was so happy that you were clean?

[A]

She's just happy I'm there eating, sitting at the dinner table, you know, and, and, and then food tastes amazing when you haven't eaten it for nine years, you know, And. And then, then I struggle with my weight. I never was suicidal in addiction, but I was suicidal when I was struggling with my weight. I just felt hopeless. Like, I felt like I was in. And I don't mean to sound derogatory towards people that struggle with their weight, but I was in a fat suit. I was in a fat suit that I did not belong in. And I remember MySpace was out and I put on my space. Space. I've been sober for 90 days, and I had a friend say, you look like meatloaf. Are you still singing, you know, or you are. You look like fat Elvis. You used to be skinny Elvis. And a lot of my friends were private messaging me saying, do meth, dude. You look terrible. And so there was a lot of struggle with that. And plus, it wasn't me. Like, I'm into Depeche Mode and fast fashion, you know, like, and I didn't fit in anything.

[B]

Was it. Do you think you substituted one addiction with the other?

[A]

Absolutely. And. And I just wanted to feel something and feel good. And so then I. I really, really got into, you know, I just started eating everything. And then, then once that's. That's harder to recover from than addiction was for me. Like, because. Because you have to, like, understand what working out is. You have to understand what eating a healthy diet is. You have to understand, like, all of these things that are so complicated that our whole society struggles with right now.

[B]

Right. It's interesting you say that. Yeah. Because with, like, drugs as it's horrible and super, super hard, and your story is so rare because it is so hard to quit that it's more. It's something you stop doing. Right. But with, with an eating disorder, it is actually trying to figure out how you can live the rest of your life doing the right things and making the right choices.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Right. And yeah.

[A]

So I think. Let me just. I'm going to take a side path real quick. I say this all the time to people. Like, I have a lot of nurses, doctors that we work with that say, like, they don't want their clients on methods. Methadone. They don't want. I go, but you guys are all okay with those. Epic. And Ozempic is methadone for food. I'm like, it's harm reduction. We can. I can say the same thing you're saying to my client that's an addict. Don't get on methadone. Just stop. Just quit. Do this, do that. Like, you'll feel better. I could do that the same way. Just stop eating bad. Just stop eating cookies. Just go work out. But methadone helps you get on the right track. Ozempic and, you know, so you, You.

[B]

Yeah. So you think that basically working on yourself and the root cause of what's causing all these addictions and your eating disorders is more important than just medicating it and trying to.

[A]

It is we. We start with harm reduction. Right. And what I'm saying is there's an acceptance. Like, when it comes to food addiction, people can accept other people taking Ozempic, but people, when it comes to fentanyl addiction, they don't want people on methadone.

[B]

Oh, and you think methadone is good? Sorry, I thought you were saying the opposite.

[A]

I think methadone is good and I think Ozempic. Ozempic's good. It's just crazy how one is so right. It's just accepted, it's just embraced. You know, you see like elite athletes doing ozempic commercials and GLP1 commercials, and you're like, I know you didn't. But we embrace it and love it because everybody understands food addiction. But when you look at somebody on Fentanyl, you're like, turn your life around. Stop using. Like, you're. You're a burden on our society. Don't get on methadone. Now. You're addicted to another drug addict. Right. Do you know what I mean? And so, so anyway, that. That's what I was going to say.

[B]

Oh, I 100% agree with you. I mean, there's such a stigma towards drug addiction and drug use.

[A]

And. And I. I heard you on Joe Rogan talking about. And he. And he was off. Right, Joe, I'm sorry if you ever see this. He was off when he was talking about, look what happened in. Not Seattle, Portland. Right. And you kind of said we didn't have the infrastructure that we had in Portugal. That's true. Not only do we not have the infrastructure to help people get help. Help, but we also have such a stigma related to drugs being illegal. And it's just. What, alcohol is worse than meth?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I've. I've watched people get off both.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And one is wildly accepted.

[B]

Right. You're so right. I will never forget, we did a story for this past season of Traffic, which was about fentanyl or Tran dope, which is a new sort of the fourth wave of the opiate crisis, where now fentanyl is being mixed with Xylazine, which is a horse tranquil or an animal tranquilizer. And it's causing. Apart from it being really dangerous, it's also. It's causing these horrible, horrible wounds that look like leprosy and people on the streets. We filmed in Kensington, outside of Philadelphia. And it's. I mean, I've never seen anything more depressing in my life. It's people. You've seen the videos. They're very popular online.

[A]

I've seen clients.

[B]

Yeah. Like hunched over zombies and with these horrible wounds. Some of them have to be amputated. And there was an incredible organization there that was actually taking care of these people. And I went in and a lot of them Working at this organization, volunteering, were actually former users themselves, but they saw the need for it. And while I was interviewing and seeing them treating these horrific wounds, I mean, it's. Since I saw one of these and the smell and it's so tough to even look at, and these people were doing it all day, just treating their wounds. And then when I was talking to some of the addicts, the users, they were saying the last thing they would want to do is go to the hospital, because when, as soon as they step into the hospital, they'll be treated, like, you know, badly treated.

[A]

Like, in our field, it's called the moral model of addiction. Addiction. Right. That you have a lack of moral. Like, your moral values are off. That's why you're an addict. And that moral.

[B]

Weak, Right?

[A]

Yeah. And that you're weak. You have no willpower.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so it's a. More. It's a moral shortcoming. And I, I. We have a program where I work for pregnant women, and women could bring their children and give birth and. And a program where they bring their children into treatment with them. And they do not want to get medical care from the hospitals because the way pregnant women are treated in those hospitals, and it's so frustrating because I'm like, if you care about the baby, care about the mom. Mom, right? Like, you have to do both. And, and we. And. And honestly, like, I know they're like, take that baby and do what? There's not enough foster care. There's not enough. We want the mothers to get better. Right. And so I struggle with that stigma a lot because I know what is possible. And, and like, I heard. I heard a gentleman speak one time, and he said, I, you're right, I chose to do heroin, but I didn't choose to be raised in an abusive household. I didn't choose to have a dad that gave me heroin when I was a young kid. He goes, so I had things I didn't choose as well. Well. And so I think our society doesn't do a good job of looking at the whole person. They just look at the behavior. And. And now with, like, I don't want to talk politics, but administration, there's, like, more of an emphasis on, you know, punishment and holding people accountable. Right. And so, like, that drives people away out of treatment. That makes people not want to get help.

[B]

Yeah. I think it's very much this idea of looking at the world as black and white. Right. Which I talk about often. And it's like, they are the junkies. Right? They're they. They put themselves there. And so as somebody who's. Who's as, you know, spent so much time reporting on the opiate crisis and talking to, like, I mentioned this on the Joe Rogan podcast, that interview where one of the kids that I interviewed, never forget, great kid. He was like 18 years old, Star athlete, all of it, got injured while playing football in school, went to the hospital, they gave him opiates. And, you know, he came from actually a family of addiction. Many people say it can be inherited genetically. And. And a week, a month later, he was shooting heroin or something like that, you know, and isn't actually a choice for a lot of people, particularly with opiates. It was not a choice for thousands of people. They were given. They were prescribed by their doctors who were told that this was not addictive. And in fact, it was. And it created the problem, the biggest drug epidemic in America's history.

[A]

And honestly, two things. One, our doctors aren't trained enough in addiction. Our medical doctors, nutrition and addiction, they're not. The other things, I just. I just spoke at a conference with a bunch of probation officers, parole officers, and judges, and I said, if we look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Are you familiar with Maslow's hierarchy? So it's like, what's your basic needs? Your basic need is food, shelter, love, all those things, right? Self awareness, our patients. And when you're an addict, your basic need is drugs. It's not food or shelter. That's why you're willing to be homeless. Especially if there's a homeless shelter that has strings. You can't bring your pet. You got to be sober. Okay, well, then I'm going to be homeless and be high, right? And so I was talking to them about the basic need. And then I was talking to them about anecdotal, which is kind of back to. What I struggled with is this feelings of pleasurelessness that you have no idea. You do not feel pleasure. You do not feel well. Nothing brings you joy. And when you're high, you're flooded with dopamine and serotonin. And you make bad choices because you're like, I know I shouldn't leave my kid in the car, but I'm flooded with serotonin, dopamine. I can't get that connection that makes me make the right choice.

[B]

And so your brain chemistry is all fucked up, right?

[A]

You're not making right decisions up. And I always do this. And I'll do this with you like I do with my audience, right? I go, so how good here's your. Here's how. Here's how good you feel. Right. How good does food make you feel? Right here, do you think?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is. If this is the baseline.

[B]

Yeah. For people who are listening, you're putting one hand above another.

[A]

Right. One hand above. So food and then exercise a little higher. And then love. And then sex. Orgasm way up here. Right. And then depressed is down here. Well, when you're high, you're walking around in an orgasmic state. State. You're walking around up here all the time. Then you listen to music, have sex, do all those things, whatever. When you're high, then when you get sober, you come all the way back down to sobriety, and it feels like depression. And then you get depressed and you fall even deeper. Not only is it perception and feeling, but it's also your brain's not making serotonin and dopamine either, the way it used to.

[B]

Yeah. So the things that used to give you pleasure are not giving you pleasure anymore. And. And. And it's very hard to get pleasure from anything at that point.

[A]

I talk about.

[B]

About.

[A]

I went. My brother took me to Depeche Mode, and I remember just thinking, in the club scene, they called me Eyeliner Rob because I wear eyeliner. Right. So I remember thinking, like, Eyeliner Rob would have so much fun at Depeche Mode if he was high. And I'm sitting here overweight, watching this band. I'm self conscious. I'm not dancing, and I don't feel anything. And. And this is going to sound crazy, but I struggled with anhedonia for years.

[B]

That's what. That's called anadonia.

[A]

Yeah. A state of pleasurelessness. And so I started struggling with. With that. And the thing that kicked me out of it was pre workout. Do you know what pre workout is? So it's like something you take before you work out. It's like 3, 400 milligrams of caffeine.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Which is a lot.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But I started doing pre workout and running, and it pulled me out of anhedonia because I started feeling pleasure again. I started feeling stimulated. I started, and then I. It's not a good thing to do. It's kind of like methadone. Right. Like, I'm doing tons of caffeine and running. But that also. Also, like, helped pull me out of the anhedonia, which also helped me understand, like, how much better I was feeling when I was working out, exercising and having caffeine and. And feeling it kind of just. I. I don't know why it worked for me. I don't recommend it. That for me is what started to give me pleasure again. But all ultimately it was cardiovascular exercise that like cured my anhedonia. And I just would go run and, and, and I, and I stumbled onto it on accident. Accident. I had to go to anger management classes.

[B]

So this is how, how long after you.

[A]

This is probably about three months after I was sober.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I was.

[B]

So at this point you're just depressed?

[A]

I'm just depressed, overweight, not having enough.

[B]

And, and what you mentioned before. Having suicidal thoughts.

[A]

Having suicidal thoughts. Like even developing kind of an agoraphobia where I didn't want to leave the house. I just thought something bad could happen. Were you your parents at that point? At that point I think yeah, I was at my parents house. Yeah.

[B]

And then what happened happen?

[A]

And then I had to do some classes and my wife's dad had passed and, and he left her some money and she bought me a mountain bike. And so I was going to those classes and I was riding my mountain bike home and I started realizing that everybody was saying they leave those meetings or the 12 step groups AA triggered. But I was leaving and processing while I was working out. And then I started thinking about it. Pretty soon I got a flat tire on the bike. I was scared to get pulled over by cops or even see cops or drive or anything because I started getting super paranoid in sobriety. And then I started running everywhere, everywhere. And I was like, this is really helping. And the weight started coming off and so like I was doing caffeine and exercising and then it just kind of got me back on track in life.

[B]

So I stumbled on had. Were you big? Did you used to do exercise before?

[A]

I swam in high school.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

That's it. And so then I just started realizing and I, I was like, I. And, and that's kind of how addict athlete was born. I said I want to do a 12 step meeting. So I reached out to AA and NA and the Narcotics Nanas and Alcox Anonymous. They were like, we don't change our program. So I was like I'm going to create my own program. And so I wrote, I was going to school, I started writing the curriculum and then I started saying like we're going to have a meeting. We're just going to meet in a park, we're going to have a meeting and then we're going to exercise. And it worked really well for a while.

[B]

And who are you calling to come to these?

[A]

So that's what I say so it worked well for a while, but I put an ad in the paper and the newspaper in our town did an article on me, on me being sober. I had developed a public access TV show and I was talking about addiction and sharing my story. So people were just meeting at this middle school field in not a great neighborhood. We'd have a meeting and then we'd run around the track. It worked. Two things happened. Number one, drug dealers started showing up. And so they started showing up to try to sell to our clients because they'd see all of us in there. And number two, it got cold. And so we started reaching.

[B]

Because this is Colorado.

[A]

Because it's Colorado. And so. So we started reaching out to people that owned gyms. And we started renting a gym in the bottom. Now we have our own gym, but we started renting a gym the bottom of an. Of a big fitness center. And that's when the Vice article came out. And we started picking up momentum. And then we just started realizing that the people who have been through addiction that have this tenacity and this. This ability to endure are really good at endurance sports, really willing to do endurance sports. And we start. Started getting into Ironman triathlons. We started getting into ultra marathons. We started getting into marathons.

[B]

Is that an actual thing? I didn't know that.

[A]

What?

[B]

That. That people who went through addiction actually are very good in endurance.

[A]

When I show up with my addict to athlete jersey, people will just yell at me if I'm running. I did an ultramarathon in, in New Mexico. It was five. It was a 5K loop. You ran it 16 times. Almost every time. You ran it for 16 hours. The same loop as many times as you can for 16 hours.

[B]

Hours.

[A]

And I was running it. And every loop, somebody that I would run into a. Somebody in the crowd or somebody going, I have five years sober, three years right here, two years. My son was an addict.

[B]

Has this been documented? Have people done studies about this?

[A]

So we, addict to athlete had a grant through the. I think it was the JAG grant, which is. Which is a justice grant. We had a four year. It's on the Addict athlete website. We had a four year independent study where we addressed criminogenic needs, which is the needs of offenders. And we addressed that and did exercise. They showed. We did a fitness test, we did a perception test, and we did a reoffending test. It was four years over independent, like independent study over four years. And it showed that we were just as successful and more successful than Regular treatment. Not just we say in the program, not just abstaining from addiction, but becoming a healthy individual.

[B]

Right. Because you're giving people again purpose and community.

[A]

And the reason religion and exercise works is because there's no finish line, right? Like you never go wake up one day and go, I'm close enough to God.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And you never go and you never in finish fitness. Even now, as I'm not as fast as I used to be, I'm like, I'm gonna get into biking. Like you just always.

[B]

Which is also what sucks about fitness, I have to say, because you just leave the gym and you've done incredible workout and like it's not as if the next day you don't have to go.

[A]

Yeah, but if that, but if we need, as, as somebody who is an addict, we need to chase something. I need to chase that baggie. I sometimes sleep at night and I go, I get to take pre workout and run five miles tomorrow. I sometimes I don't want to, but I want to do something and I, I, I look forward to it. It gave me that purpose. And, and, and then when I got into endurance sports and I started realizing like when I would be out on an ironman course and somebody, it's a 2.4 mile swim, 112 mile bike ride, 26 mile run. And when I'm doing that and people are dying and stress, I'm like, dude, I used to walk from one end of Vegas to the other in the heat with combat boots on in leather pants and, and no money or water. Like this has got aid stations, right? And so like I started realizing, and all of us, I have friends that are heroin, that were addicted to heroin. I have friends that were addicted to fentanyl and they're all great athletes.

[B]

I wonder, I don't have there. Do you mind if I do a search? I'm going to ask Matt to do a search on Perplexity. It's our AI sponsors, they have a website that you can search and they give really good results on stuff like this. Matt, can you do a search for what? The intersection, I guess, of addiction and endurance sports. If there have been studies or numbers or statistics that have come out about this. Because I think it does. If like you say, and I believe you, that they're gonna be better endurance athletes because they've gone through so much and they've. Yeah, they've managed to be here and survive.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that it's an amazing thing to have after all the shame and guilt that comes with addiction to have sort of this little superpower that nobody else has. That's sort of a badge that.

[A]

And, and it is a superpower. Please read my book or listen to.

[B]

It if you love to. Yeah.

[A]

The reason it's called suffer well is because that's what we say in endurance sports before we race. We're like, suffer well because you're gonna suffer. Like there's no. Like when you're standing on the, on the shore and you know, you got to do a 2.4 mile open water swim, 112 mile bike ride, 26 mile run, you know you're going to suffer. So we're always like, suffer well. And that's why I have that tattooed on my back. I have suffer well tattooed on there. And that's, that's why we say that. And, and we, and also in Buddhism there's this idea that to exist is to suffer. Right. And, and so there's this idea of, of in addiction, in sobriety, in endurance sports. Suffer well. We're not going to escape life without suffering. Suffering is relative and everybody does it differently, but we know what it's like to suffer well.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so that's, you know, I really.

[B]

That's. Yeah, I had no idea. And it makes so much sense. Matt, did you find anything?

[A]

Yeah, I texted him.

[B]

Oh, yeah, here. Yeah, there it is. The association between drug addiction and being highly skilled in endurance sports is complex and multifaceted, often linked to how endurance sports can play a role in addiction recovery and how certain traits overlap between addicts and endurance athletes. Endurance sports, especially ultra running, can be an important part of recovery from driving, drug and alcohol addiction. Many recovering addicts turn to endurance sports because the intense physical activity replaces the chemical highs they previously sought from drugs. The discipline, community support and endorphin release from endurance training contribute to positive psychological changes during recovery. However, certain personality traits common in both addiction and endurance athletes. Intense drive, high tolerance for discomfort. Yeah, so you were saying obsession and isolation tendencies can make some at risk of substituting one addiction for another.

[A]

But that's okay.

[B]

Yeah. Because I mean, of all the addictions.

[A]

I've had, somebody tell me, they go, because I do pre workout and supplements. They go, you do everything but meth. I go, you're right, I do everything but meth.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's a compliment. That's a, that's a positive step.

[B]

Do you ever have people come to you and say, hey, I'm worried because I'm way, I'm like running way too much, I'm doing too much. And this what do you say to them?

[A]

It's hard, right? It's hard because there's people like David Goggins running to 200 mile races. I'm like, I'm doing a marathon or 35 miles. They're doing 200 miles. We just, we don't know. I still think that the. I still think, you know, we don't know what the human body is capable of because we know that your perception in your mind can push the body a lot. I've been in a race where at mile 10, I'm dying, and then mile 20, I feel great, you know, and so I think, I think we don't know. People do worry when, when that obsession starts to end, just like with addiction, when it starts to have negative impact on, on your wellness in your life, then. Then that becomes an issue. Like if you're not eating. We talk about balance in, in all the programs that we do, I talk about balance, but I. I do think so. There is a book that came out by Thomas Sham Shanahan. It's called Spiritual Adrenaline and it's how to eat for your recovery. And he became a bodybuilder after addiction. And so he brought a lot of us together. So there was Scott Strode from the Phoenix, and there was David Clark, who's not with us anymore. He was an ultra marathon runner. And then myself. And we've been called like the Mount Rushmore of the active recovery movement. And so, you know, Scott from the Phoenix has a big program. Thomas has a sober, active New York. And so there's a bunch of us that kind of have been doing it. I'm the only one. Our addict athlete's the only one with an independent study. But I believe Scott Strode was the first. Me and Sheena, my wife, was the second, and she's also an ultra marathon runner.

[B]

That's iron man. So she on also got clean. Was it at the same time as you did?

[A]

She got clean? She went to. This is crazy. I sat in on her intervention high and was like, you got to stop.

[B]

No way.

[A]

Yeah. And her. I did an intervention. I was part of her intervention with her mom. And she went to treatment for one week. One week. Because that's all indigent paid for was one week of treatment. There was no Medicaid covering residential treatment back then.

[B]

The whole rehab industry was bananas.

[A]

It's. And we could go, you know. So she did one. She did one week.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But her after care was 12 step meetings. And that's where I got introduced. Going to her with her.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

To her 12. And so she got, she had like nine days before me and then she had a lapse and then I got in front of her by two days. So I was saying like I passed. Yeah.

[B]

So.

[A]

But she's actually a better athlete. She runs addict to athlete. I, I, I actually left the program to pursue a PhD in 2016 and I still help with the one in New Mexico. But she's taken addict to athlete and it's.

[B]

So tell me about addict to athlete. How it started and what is it right now and how, how, how big is it?

[A]

So there's the guys help. So there's one in New Mexico that's the biggest right now. Shout out to my buddy Johnny Armo that runs it at the Albuquerque Center. Oh no, it's not Albert. They run it at a place called Soul Cafe in New Mexico. S O U L Cafe. And he runs it there. It's integrated into their probation parole departments. That's how we do it too. We go to community corrections and do it. There's that's great. And try to help them understand. And our program is based on what they call criminogenic needs. And the criminogenic needs are like antisocial associates, antisocial or pro criminal activities, pro criminal mentalities. And so we're trying to get them to understand like especially the gang affiliated. Right. Like they're, they're so in. And we're trying to get them to understand that everything that helps you survive on the street will destroy you in society. So you on the street, it's all ego, how you're perceived in society. It's self esteem, how you feel about yourself. And so it's really easy like we work with them to say like let go of this. Like you can't tell your boss you because your ego's hurt. You have to know in self esteem that I have positive self esteem, I'm worth something. And you tell your boss, okay, I got it right. And so letting go of the ego. So we're trying to deprogram them when we're doing and then we also criminogenic needs is based on risk need responsivity model. What are they going to respond to? What's their risk? Risk, how can we help them? You know and, and addiction is a criminal criminogenic need. But a lot of times we got to fix the other stuff first. And so it's like when I did my, I did a book signing in New York, Sober active New York and I taught a spin class to a bunch of Tough tatted up, tough looking dudes. And we're doing techno and I'm like doing hands up like in, on a spin class. They were ex, former inmates, tough looking dudes. And they're on a spin bike and they're like, what up, homie? This music's football. You know, like, and they're like, let go of their ego. They let go of being tough guys. They're, they're, I'm going up, down, up, down, left, right, clap, you know, and they're doing all of that and, and, and I'm like, this is exactly what we want to do. Like. And they were, afterwards, they were like, that was so fun. I never thought of doing this. I mean the majority of the class was teaching them how to clip their shoes into the bikes. And then, and then when we were done, like, I was like, we're going to leave you fools there till you figure it out. Because they were stuck on the bike.

[B]

Were they, were they wearing like the tight shirts?

[A]

No, they, they were wearing like, I'm sure they're baggy sweats and football gear.

[B]

You're not going to see me.

[A]

But they did have to put the shoes on because the bikes had the pedals. Yeah, I've done. They couldn't get it in and they couldn't get out. And that, that was. And I was like, you know, you got this big tatted up dude and I'm like grabbing his foot, like stop, stop moving your foot. It goes in and then to the side. So, so, so. And that's what we're doing. Like we do yoga. Like it's so cool to do yoga with, with dudes that are like the scariest. Like, if I saw him on the street, I would get in my car and lock the door. And then I'm having him do down dog, right? And I'm like, okay, this is called Warrior One, you know, like, and doing stuff like that and it's letting go of their ego, finding out that there's more out there, you know.

[B]

So why are you going to correctional facilities? Is it because you realize that a lot of of them are former addicts and there's a lot of. Well explained to me.

[A]

Well, because not a lot of correcting goes on at correctional facilities. And so we want to be there helping correct, right? And so we have a coach that goes into some community corrections and they keep the community safe. And then, you know, you have a captive audience to drink the Kool Aid and hopefully are, you know, provoc Gatorade maybe, like, you know, instead of the Kool Aid. And so I just think that, that we're showing them another way and we're trying to get them to understand. And then, you know, I work for an evidence based treatment center and I'm the officer operations and innovation and I have a clinical background. I have a PhD.

[B]

Okay. So you do so much break down for me what you do. So you, you work in this treatment center. Yeah. So you have athletes.

[A]

So here's the day. So.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So the way we designed Addict Athlete is we have a functional fitness gym called Stay Invincible Colorado.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It was actually sick and it used to be stay sober in CrossFit is what was going to be the name. But CrossFit does not like you to take stances like that. So they didn't approve of our name so I switched it to Stay Invincible Colorado because we already made stuff that said sick. And so I was like, the idea is when you're young, you think you're invincible, right. And so this is like what my day looks like. So my wife and I get up probably about 3am What? And then we put headlamps on and we have three dogs that like and, and our dogs are help taught us like what unconditional love is. We run with our dogs every morning. We run three miles. You know, I also take teach at the college and so I teach online. I'll grade all my papers and then I'll change clothes.

[B]

What do you teach?

[A]

I teach addiction, case management, criminology, a little bit of everything. And so then that's where my passion is now. It's not helping the individual. I'm at that level where I want to train the people that are going to take carry on the work and make sure they're trained properly and think outside the box and be innovative and help them navigate how to deal with the politics and the stigma of addiction. And also, also a lot of people in recovery go into addiction. They're. They're not truly having done the work and they want to work in the field. And so I like working with them and making sure this isn't about you, this is about them. You know, I want to share my story. If you're sharing your story, you're not hearing theirs. Right. And there's a time and a place for all of that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so, so I teach, you know, I'll grade my papers, then I go to work at the biggest treatment center in the state of Colorado. You know, like we do everything. We're the number one sud center.

[B]

And what do you do Then we.

[A]

Do prevention education, we do interventions and detox, we do residential treatment at a lower level, at a high level. And then we have criminogenic programs. And then we do recovery, sober living and have peer support. And so I'll work that all day. And then I go to another gym and I teach spin at a gym. And that's like a big kind of traditional, like gym. It's called Pueblo Athletic Club, but it's a lot like 24 Hour Fitness.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I teach spin there and it's like my way to give back because the people that owned that gym, they passed away. Their son runs it now. And they were a big part of giving me a discounted membership, giving me gym stuff when I got. So it's. I keep my foot in the door there, so I teach there. And then, you know, I hang out with my wife, we chill and run with, you know, play with the dogs, and then we do it all over.

[B]

Again the next 3am the next morning. That's crazy. And did you ever think it's pretty incredible, like when you were an active, active addiction, when you were at the worst of the worst? I mean, you never thought that this was going to be your life, right?

[A]

So.

[B]

Or maybe you did.

[A]

No. Your other person talked about imposter syndrome. Right. Like, I'm almost feel ashamed when people call me Dr. Rob. Like, I almost feel like I didn't earn it. Do you know what I mean? Like, I almost feel like I don't deserve it. Like, how, how come so many of my friends died? That would be the one thing that I have not felt, felt. I'm always waiting for, for like a feeling of impending doom or feeling of undeserving. And I have to practice what I preach and remind myself. But because I was playing catch up, I was such a piece of shit when I was using. And I got an associate's degree, I didn't walk straight into bachelor's degree full time. Got a bachelor's degree, didn't walk straight into again. Got a master's degree, didn't walk. I knew I had to get a PhD because I was just playing catch up and trying to go where I thought my parents knew where I was capable of, of my brother knew what I was capable of and I wanted to prove. And I just, nothing was ever good enough. And then I got to a PhD and I'm like, well, I gotta accept the fact that I've done this, I've earned this. But imposter syndrome is difficult and especially when people that I've used with. Or people that, you know, I partied with are dying, or they're, you know, in prison, or they have. They've lost limbs. And thank God I never used like, that in my city that I live in now, because I don't have to run into them on a daily basis. But I. But I. Social media makes it, like, where you see them and I hear. And they'll remember this dude. Like, he's. He just died, you know? And so I think, for me, when you say, did I ever think. I honestly never thought I was going to make it out of 30. I stopped using, I think, when I was, you know, around that age. And I just always thought, like, if it got so bad, I would. I never wanted to commit suicide, but I was like, there's always an out, you know, I just always. It was always on the menu, and overdose was always on the menu. It's like, if things get so bad, dad, you know, if. If I had this mentality, like, you know, if. If you got pulled over, just eat all the dope and go to sleep high. You know what I mean? Like, that I had this terrible, terrible feeling that I was never going to make it. So now to look back at 52 and somebody's calling me Dr. Rob or treating me with respect or. Or say that, like, you know, like, I'm really intimidated by who you are. I'm like, I don't see myself as that. Like, a part of me is still sees myself, like, as somebody that was undeserving and broken, and it takes a lot. Like, I truly think that people that have been in recovery and walk the line of recovery, we live in gratitude. Sometimes I wake up, I look at my dog, and I'm like, I fucking love you. Do you know what I mean? Like, I love you. You make my life better. I look at my house, you know, I get to run, and I'm just so grateful, you know, to my wife, to my brother, to my family. I'm just like, I love you guys so much. I'm so grateful for. That's my table, you know, that's my tv. Like, look where I live, you know? Like, I get to. To celebrate all that. Sometimes I walk in and I have a mountain bike. I have a gravel bike, I have a triathlon bike. I'm like, how did that happen? Like, I don't deserve this, but I do deserve it.

[B]

I think we should all do that more often. Yeah, all of us, regardless. I mean, I think we should look around us and realize just how Lucky we are.

[A]

I think people that have been through hell that. That make it out the other side, we want to do that. Like, we want to look at everything and say, thank you. Thank you for, like, just the universe, God, God, whatever. Thank you for just giving me this last chance to. To get all this. Because there were so many times I didn't have it. There were so many times where, you know, my. My hands were black from. My fingertips were black from swirling the pipe. And, you know, I was hungry. You know, I was alone, especially when I didn't have drugs. And people are, like, shutting the door in my face because they know I'm just trying to get something from them or, you know, not having money. And, I mean, I went through stages. Where was I? I was, you know, asking for spare change and trying to hustle money somehow. You know, I always tell this story that I had a gas can, you know, and I would stand next to my car because my parents were good to me. They always made sure I had transportation. And I would say, hey, I ran out of gas. And there would always be somebody that would put gas in the gas can. I be like, I don't need gas. I need money for drugs. And I'd be so mad that they've.

[B]

Been in that situation where people ask me for money. I. At the gas station, I was like, I'll pay for your gas.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And they would do it, and then I'd be like. Then I'd be like, do you want to buy gas to the next person that comes by? Right? But. But to. To. To be where I'm at now, It's. It's real to be here talking to you. Like I felt on the way, I told my brother, I go, it's probably a scam. She's probably not even really there. This is probably a setup. They're going to rob us. Like, we don't. Why would she want to talk to me? Do you know what I mean? He goes, no, I'm pretty sure it's legit.

[B]

And then I think, yeah, I think imposter syndrome syndrome is very, very, very prevalent in common. I mean, I definitely have it that. It's partly why I get so nervous. Anytime I have to do any public speaking, I am fine in front of a camera, and I can be in front of 10 armed men with masks, and I am totally fine and not nervous. The moment I step on a stage and I'm look. I have to look at people, or the moment I'm, like, being interviewed, I feel that I feel they're going to know that I'm really stupid, that I'm really dumb. I'm actually not very smart, and I don't have that much knowledge. I have that. And, yeah, that's imposter syndrome in many ways, right?

[A]

Did you. I bet you've had this feeling. Just tell me if you've had this feeling. I read Obama's book, right. And I don't know if you read it, but in his book, he's like, you know, I finally get behind these doors, you know, I mean, I'm going to paraphrase in. In my. The way I would say. But he says something like, I finally get behind these doors with the greatest minds in the world, you know, like all these people. And he's basically saying, like, they don't know. You know what I mean?

[B]

Oh, 100.

[A]

And I do that too. I'm like, I. Like when. When the people are like, you're PhD. Like, you know, I'm like, I don't know anything. Like, do you know what I mean?

[B]

That's so true. It's so true. I mean, so. Particularly in the world of TV and media, where you think, okay, especially when you're young and starting and you think, okay, I'm learning from these people, but they probably have a better idea of what's the right thing to do here. And so often and very quick you find out, holy shit. They know you know as much if not lost enough.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's. And it's scary too, because, like, I work with doctors sometimes. Sometimes, you know, and they'll call me for advice and I'll be like. Like, I. I don't think that I want you to ever be my doctor because I feel like you don't know a lot. You know what I mean? Why are you calling me? And they're like, you're the expert. I'm like, okay, I am the expert. Then. Like, you know, but.

[B]

But I think imposter syndrome is sometimes also good, right?

[A]

Because it is.

[B]

It's a way of you face being humble, which is so important, and not feeling that you're special or better than anyone else.

[A]

I. I am so the opposite of God complex.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Right. I'm like. I'm like, I'm got complex now.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

I'm the guy that's got a complex. That would be my new band. It would be like, got complex because I have, like, you know, anxiety and stress about everything. Like, and. And everything that happens. Like if I'm running and I get a cramp I'm like, yup, here comes, like, you know, every time I go to the doctor and he runs my blood work, I'm like, what is it? I know I deserve it. Hit me with it, you know, and so I think that whole idea of waiting for the other shoe to fall off is really common. But it does keep me humble. It does keep me, you know, trying to walk in humility, being. Because I know how fast it could go away. And I also know how hard it was to earn it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, and so I think that a lot of us out there.

[B]

Yeah. But knowing that you're not better than anyone else, but you're also not worse than anyone else.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That we're all just, like, trying to survive and trying to be happy.

[A]

Yeah. I did. I did a interview with somebody once, and they said, nobody wants to be judged for their worst moment or defined by the worst moment. And with social media and society, how often do you. Do we judge people by their worst?

[B]

100%. I was just talking the other day with one of the people we interviewed, which it was about, you know, these, like, predator groups, these groups of predator hunters, they go, you know, and they search for pedophiles. And it is. It's exactly that. It's somebody being judged on their worst day. I mean, obviously, pedophiles are horrible. What they do I do not condone. But it's. It's very hard to me to see it being turned into entertainment where people are watching and, you know, these clips and these videos are millions of people watching the end of their life in many ways. Right. And you enjoying that viewing is troubling.

[A]

Well, it's so hard, too, because everything's, like, in the town square on social media now, like, right. Everything. Everything that you do, everything. Every. Every mistake you made, every. Every post you posted without thinking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you know what I mean?

[B]

Evolved. I mean, we.

[A]

Yeah, everybody's done it, right?

[B]

Yeah. We've made a ton of mistakes. And it's very human to be. To make mistakes and contextualizing and trying to understand how a person got there is a much better way to spend your time than.

[A]

And there's a weird hierarchy of, like, you know, oh, you were an addict, or, oh, you were. You abused a child. Oh, you abused a dog. Oh, you. You broke the law. Like, oh, you killed somebody. You know, like, oh, you were snitched. And so if you look at that hierarchy, right, Like, I'm a vegetarian. I don't want. I have thoughts about how people that hurt animals, right? And so everybody has a different idea of what's just and what's moral. And so it really is scary to think about that. Do you know what I mean? But I definitely do not want to be judged on my worst day. And I don't want to be defined by my best day. Right? I'm like, I'm in the middle, like you said, I'm just like everybody else, right?

[B]

So you talked a little bit about survivor's guilt, right? Which is the idea that you made it and feeling guilty because of it. And I've interviewed a lot of people who have come out the other way and are clean now and have done really, really well in their life and feel that way. And it's, it must be something that stays with you.

[A]

It is. And, and I think that's why continued support groups, continued conversations, seeking mental health, seeking counseling, therapy, you know, important. It's important. And you know, self care is important. Working out. I process a lot of those feelings and thoughts. I mean, that's a great thing about running or biking or being on a spin bike. You could kind of zone out and, and reassess everything. And I think, I think that. And then, and then it's also a reminder that, like, you know, I always say this. Like it's, it's really easy to think that you made it, you have it, and then, you know, you get sick one day and you're like, I would give it all to not feel this way right now. And just to know that, like, it doesn't matter what you do in life, like you get cancer, you know, you get even food poisoning. You would, in the moment of having food poisoning, I'd be like, take my car. Just make me feel better right now, right? Understanding that, like, you may feel like you don't deserve this, but also understanding that you don't deserve bad. Do you know what I mean? And so I think, like I said, it's, it's, it's trying to stay in balance and trying to encourage others. And I think the big thing I view when we work with patients or when I train people to work with patients is saying, like, remind them of what they deserve. Remind them that they could have what they want. They don't have to be this. If they choose to be be. They have the autonomy to do whatever they want to do, but remind them that they deserve life, they deserve happiness. Doesn't matter if you lost your kids, you could, if you're fighting to get them back, you deserve to be a mother. You deserve to have, you know, to be called mom or to be called dad or to be called doctor or lawyer or whatever you choose. And I think that's, that's a big part of recovery is letting people know that they deserve positive and good.

[B]

So let me ask you, since you are involved in the rehab business or industry, why do you think it's so, so up. Why is it that so many people who then decide to get clean and seek out help are then caught in, you know, fraud and systems of fraud and, you know, human trafficking and, and yeah, why is it so prevalent and what can we do to fix this?

[A]

So, so in my humble opinion, right, Like a big part of it is we don't fund well enough for people to not want to be shady, right? Like, like, here's something that I don't love. I don't love. And there was somebody told me, like, urine, urine analysis, it's liquid gold, right? Like, and, and one of the things that we do wrong is our treatment programs are like, we're paying for UAs, right? All the time. If you're a good clinician, you know, if they're using or not, do you really need to do a ua? Like, let's, let's make that right.

[B]

Because these groups or these companies can charge insurance thousands of dollars during an analysis that is mandatory for sometimes for people to do every week or every month. So they're, they're making a lot of money from just getting their, their people at times billing.

[A]

Medicaid, right? Medicaid's medical necessity is abstinence monitoring through uas. Is that really medical necessity? So then you have like, our, our system is built on like, I don't take the clinician's word for it. I only take the ua. I could, I could as a clinician call somebody in the judicial system and say, say, you know, Mariana's doing great. Like, what's her UA say, right? Really? That's like what we're based in. So that, so that becomes like, that's become like a foundation of abstinence monitoring. And it's like, really, do we really need that all the time? Do you know what I mean? Like, and so expensive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so then, and then when you don't fund programs, right? When you, when you don't fund programs, when you're not looking at evidence based. Colorado, I'm going to say this Colorado is in this time right now where they're rebuilding the treatment program programs. They're real rebuilding it. I'm on the advisory committee for the Behavioral Health Administration. They have People with lived experience advising and they're really doing a good job of looking at what's wrong, what's. But the funding has to come, right? Like, and. Right.

[B]

It's what, it's what we talked about with Joe Rogan on this podcast, which was about the example of Oregon where they decriminalized it or. Right, they do. I can't remember. But yeah, but they decriminalized it or legalized it.

[A]

We, in Colorado, we've, we've decriminalized use. Right? So you, it's not an automatic felony. It's like 4 grams or less or something. You can be diverted.

[B]

What they did in Portugal too.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And so that's, that's. We, we actually have the several diversion programs throughout the state. And so, you know, one, one of the things is we don't fund prevention, right. Because it's hard for, for prevention to be evidence based. Right. And so like we, we do have a prevention grant at, at the place where I work. And in that prevention grant, we're not working on the dangers of drugs and alcohol. Right. They have Google, they know that we work on self esteem, communication, critical thinking, decision making. It's hard to make prevention evidence based. Like, how do I go, you didn't drown because I taught you to swim. Do you know what I mean? Like, there's no way to capture that data.

[B]

Right? So you're not going to use drugs because I taught you how. Not right?

[A]

Yeah. And so prevention is not funded. Well, then we get into treatment. Then you're looking at residential treatment and what drives how long they stay pay, right. We have a workforce shortage of clinicians. People don't want to come into this field. I have insane student loan debt. Insane student loan debt. So I have, you have people that don't want student loan debt. They don't want to work in the field. We have overworked clinicians because we have a workforce shortage. And then on top of that, like you have these, this small group of people running all of these programs because people are always saying, like, we need more beds, like, we need more residential treatment beds. I go, no, you don't have clinicians to run more beds. So not only that, but, but their stay is based on medical necessity, right? And medical necessity can be. Somebody might see it like, oh, this person needs this, this person needs that. Oh, they're well enough to go home. They don't need. So, so the fact that the payer drives the success, right? The fact that it's hard, it's really can be Difficult to capture medical necessity for addiction. Addiction, right. Because if we're just looking at, like, medical necessity, we're looking at withdrawals, we're looking at physical health. I don't know if the system understands, like, what medical necessity for. For psychological issues are right, for coping skills, right? Because. And if somebody falls back into addiction, then it becomes medical necessity again. Now we start that. We start over again. They're in there three weeks, okay? They're good to go. We're not paying anymore. Medicaid's not going to cover. You're off and running, right? And so. So the fact that pay drives it, right? And then the fact that pay drives it makes other people go, shit, I want to get paid. Do you know what I mean? You just sit there and watch tv. We'll pretend we're a treatment center, right? Which is what was happening with the body broker, right?

[B]

I mean, there were people. There were like, zoom meetings with 400 people. And they are charging this as group therapy and charging insurance and Medicaid thousands of dollars for. Yeah, for 400.

[A]

And looking through the loophole, they did it. Right, right. They're like, no, they were in my group for.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They didn't put in their documentation. 700 people were on the zoom, right? They didn't put that in there. But anytime that we have like a payer dictating, even in the healthcare system, when we have a payer dictating treatment, and. And that payer is. Is dictating how long people stay, what they get, you know, how. How.

[B]

Right. It's a conflict of interest, right, because you're making money from having people be sick and stay. Staying there.

[A]

So, like Portugal, right? Like there's systems in place to help, right?

[B]

Yeah, they did. I mean, it wasn't perfect for sure, but they were one of the first countries, if not the first, to completely decriminalize drugs, which means that if you're caught with. Until a certain amount, if you're caught with, you know, an airplane full of cocaine, you're being arrested for trafficking. But if it's up until a certain amount, they would give you the op. The option you want to go to rehab or do you want to go to prison? And it turns out that the state actually pays less for rehab than they do for prison. And so the numbers of drug addiction went down. The number. AIDS incarceration, all of that went down. And it was. And yes, and they invested, I believe, a lot in having the infrastructure in place, which is not. Which is the opposite of what happened in Oregon. So they didn't, they, they decriminalized it, but they didn't, they didn't have the infrastructure in place, the safety net for all these people that then wanted help and decided that they wanted to get clean.

[A]

Right? And so, so, so, so think about that. You have the infrastructure, right? Like we have the infrastructure like to an extent in the United States. But here's the thing. Like we know statistically 90 days is about what they need, right? And a good portion of that's going to be withdrawing and detox. Nobody gets funded on like right up front they do, but not right up front. Like not right up front for 90 days.

[B]

So upfront is what, 60 days.

[A]

So 30 days probably your treatment plans are updated. We have to, to, we have to reassess. We have to submit to Medicaid. So it could be a week, it could be three weeks, it could be four weeks. And so then that does create, that does create people, that makes clinicians, if they want to get treatment. Then you start writing to how can I keep you here? Versus an honest how, how is treatment going? Right? And so like, because you want to make sure your patients are getting the longest care. And then because that system is, is so flawed and, and people are just, they kind of know what wants to be said, right? So, so then you have some people that aren't doing treatment at all, but they know how treatment, right? And they're submitting this. And then you have other people who are really good clinicians and they're writing what's right. And then it doesn't get funded because they're showing progress and less medical necessity.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So the fact that we don't have, and I'm not saying we should have a cookie cutter program because we should have a program that's patient centered. Programs that are patient centered that revolve around what the patient wants. If the patient comes in and they go, I want to work on my fentanyl addiction, but I don't want to stop drinking. Okay, then let's work on fentanyl, right? Let's not even talk about the alcohol. So I think we need person centered treatment. But we also individualized and individualized treatment, right? And, but we also need to know that like, because if your clinicians, you're already short on clinicians and they're spending all their time documenting, they're spending less time with the patients because they got to document to get paid and they got to get people paid to, they got to make sure that there's a payer because it costs A lot. To run a treatment center costs a lot to, a lot to, to, to have clinicians. People don't want to work for free. I, I couldn't work for less money. I, I feel terrible, but I have student loans. Do you know what I mean? I have, I have a life too. So you want to get paid for it, but at the same time, every time you pay a clinician, that goes less into the system, less into treatment, less into the food. Most treatment centers eat a lot of cost, right? They just chalk it up to the game. We, the ones that are doing it right, the ones that are passionate and caring. I think what could, what could help our system is prevention, intervention, workforce development, also employment development. You know, we didn't, we, we, we talk about purpose, but making purpose a part of like necessity and treatment. Like, right. If you're constantly writing to medical necessity, how often do we get to spend working on purpose? Right? That happens like in outpatient or later on.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's just a lot of us that are in the field, field that, that are doing what that like I do at my, our treatment center and, and what Colorado is trying to do, they're trying to do it right. But the funding is up and down. Right. Prevention education is based on grants. Like there's always grants. So one day you're helping this community, the next year, up in that community. What we've started to do is we take, we've gotten all of our trainers that teach evidence based curriculum. They become trainers of trainers so that what we have the grant, we go into the school system, we teach and then we teach. We certify the teachers to carry it on so when we lose the grant.

[B]

They can still do it. It's very smart.

[A]

So that's what we're trying to do. So it's just a, it's just a flawed system that could, that I, I want to say that like I heard Jelly Roll was trying to open a huge treatment center.

[B]

Right. I heard that too.

[A]

Right. And so I was like somebody that's been through it, that would be willing to be innovative, that has deep pockets, can, can structure this and, and that might just be the way we're going life to him.

[B]

Let's get you guys together.

[A]

Jelly Roll, call me. All right. I heard he's called Veggie Roll now that he's lost weight. They were calling him Veggie Roll. But yeah, hit me up. You just pay my student loans, I'll come work. No, but I think that, you know, I think it's going to Take some, it's going to take some private funding to, to, to really truly put it together and put in an evidence based, you know.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We got to get studies on and everything we're doing. But it's hard, like, thank God, it's very hard to. Several of the programs in, in the state, they use an active recovery fitness place called the Phoenix or they use addict to athlete. Thank God some treatment centers have those options because we don't talk about nutrition or fitness as much as we could talk about it. Right. And then also there's such strict laws around credentials and credentialing. Like if I'm a clinician, I'm actually a certified personal trainer. But if I'm talking to somebody about nutrition, you could get, you, you could get your license creeped because you're not a nutritionist. Right. So there's also like all of these boundaries like where you, you, I could connect with you and I could help you and I'm trying to do whole person care but I can't really talk outside my scope. So if I want to talk about nutrition, I got to go get another credential and another student. Yeah.

[B]

So exactly.

[A]

Yeah, it's tricky.

[B]

What do you think, just to sort of round this up and then our conversation. What do think you think is the biggest misunderstanding that people have about addiction or drug users?

[A]

I think the biggest misunderstanding is that it's choice. I think that's the biggest misunderstanding because this is what I'll close with. Right. And I talk about this in my book, we say the word recovery, right? Somebody's in recovery. But what recovery implies is that something was normal at baseline, then it got jacked up and then you recover. Right. In our society we have so many people that were born into addiction, born into gang affiliated families. So when we get them in treatment, we're not asking them to recover, we're asking them to be reborn into a society and a life that they've never experienced. And so that misunderstanding that oh, you're going to be in recovery, I'm like, no, they're not going to be in recovery because they don't know what normal is. Right. And so getting people to understand it's not always a choice. There's more to the story. And sometimes people, their social norm is doing met. Their social norm is hiding guns for mom and dad. Their social norm is, you know, I could walk in a house, smell green chili and go, reminds me of my grandma. Somebody could walk in a house and smell foil cooking from crack and go, reminds me of My mom.

[B]

Yeah. We did the interview with Fabian Alamar. It was when our first interview on the podcast, and he says he remembers open the fridge and he had PCP and peanut butter next to each other because his mama was addicted to drugs and with drugs around the house all the time. Yeah, that's, that's, that's. You are absolutely right. It's not about recovery. It's about being reborn and re reinventing yourself and your life completely from scratch.

[A]

I had, I had a client one time and I know we're going to wrap it up. I had a client one time, tell me, she said, do I need a resume? And I'm like, resume what? Right? And she was older, and so she said, I think I need to resume because I want to work, work. And I was like, I think she means resume, resume. And she was like, I've never had one before. And I'm like, this is somebody in their 30s, 40s, right? And, and they don't know. She, she had never even heard the word. Right. And so when we're looking and saying they had a choice, they always don't have a choice. And when we're saying they're in recovery, they, they, they don't always. They're asking to be reborn.

[B]

Yeah. It's so obvious to me and yet somewhat controversial to say that I, I. There was a video the other day that I posted where I said that, where I said nobody wants to end up on the streets. Nobody wants to live, be living out in the streets in the situation that I saw some of these people in Kensington, you know, with these wounds and everything. And there were lots of comments of people like, that's bullshit. They are there because it's their choice and they want to be there. And yeah, it's just not a controversial statement. It is the fact nobody wants to end up like that. And if you end up like that is because something went wrong. And a lot of times it is not your, your fault. The majority of times it's not your fault.

[A]

I mean, we, we do, we do have to have accountability, of course. And, and I think people think that understanding means that we're enabling. Right? Don't give them clean needles, like really give them bad needles, because if they die, dead people don't get sober either. You know what I mean? So it's, it's getting people to understand that there's more to the story, right?

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah. I couldn't agree with you more. This has been such an awesome conversation.

[A]

No, thank you so much, you so much for having me. Could I plug my book?

[B]

Absolutely. I was gonna say that you should.

[A]

So the book Suffer. Well, it's available every year. Amazon, Apple Books. Yes.

[B]

So great. I cannot wait to read it. I caught the COVID Is your back with an incredible tattoo.

[A]

Yeah. So you. When you have bad tattoos, you got. When you're on meth, you have to get good, big tattoos to cover them. Yes.

[B]

So great. Suffer. Suffer. Well, a tale of inspiration, determination, and perspiration. Perspiration.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was trying to see if I.

[A]

Was reading that right.

[B]

It's amazing. I can't. I can't wait to read it. Thank you for bringing. This one is my copy.

[A]

Thank you for having me.

[B]

Thank you so much for coming here.

[A]

Rob.