← The Hidden Third
The Hidden Third
From Cocaine Trafficker to Prison Reformer | The Hidden Third with Mariana van Zeller
01:34:15
Loading summary
Transcript442 lines
- [00:00]
A
When I was there, you had to have a knife. One of you's got to take turns carrying it up your rectum.
- [00:05]
B
Wait, it's up your butt.
- [00:06]
A
That's the prison wallet. You'll never leave home alone.
- [00:08]
B
You have something protected around it, I'm assuming.
- [00:10]
A
Yeah. Or else you'll be bleeding out your coolo.
- [00:12]
B
I'm Mariana Van Zeller, and after reporting on black markets for my Emmy winning National Geographic show, Trafficked, I'm launching a podcast. You're getting emotional on me. Intimate conversations with those operating in the shadows. The Hidden Third is out now with new episodes every Wednesday. Subscribe@YouTube.com marianavanzeller Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [00:36]
A
There were two mafia guys, Dan and Paul, and they were much older than them.
- [00:41]
B
It's amazing that you remember their names.
- [00:43]
A
They were my protectors, actually.
- [00:44]
B
Oh, they were.
- [00:45]
A
They became that.
- [00:46]
B
And why did they want to protect you?
- [00:48]
A
Well, they didn't at first. They wanted to know if I was a rat. That was the first thing. So one was serving 24 years and one was serving 30. And they said, how much time do you have? And I said, I have 45 years. And he looked at me and said, what did you do to get 45 years?
- [01:09]
B
You were convicted of drug trafficking and sentenced to 45 years in prison. You served more than two decades behind bars, and during that time, you turned your sentence into a mission. And today you are one of the leading voices for prison reform. Michael Santos, welcome to the Hidden Third.
- [01:26]
A
Thank you so much for having me.
- [01:27]
B
So I'd love to start first from. I've been reading a lot about you. Fascinating life. And I think what I haven't read enough about is your childhood. Like, where did you grow up? What was your childhood like?
- [01:38]
A
I grew up in North Seattle, in a suburb called Lake Forest Park. My father escaped from Cuba and came to the United States with hopes of building a better life for our family. Eventually migrated, I guess, to Southern California, and he was an electrician. So he married my mom and they. I had my older sister, Julie, and I was born on January 15, 1964, in Anaheim. My earliest memories are when we went group, when we moved to Seattle, so we moved to Seattle. So he started the business there during the World's Fair and started his little electrical contracting company. Just a family business. My mom helped him with Edmond stuff, and he was a worker and built his company. And I was very young, required to go to work with him because that's what Cubans do. They Bring their sons to work. And. And I was, you know, grew up being his helper until we moved from North Seattle to the suburban Lake Forest Park. And that is really where my life started to get a little bit crazy, I'd say, when I was very young. I'm just interacting with some kids that didn't have the discipline that perhaps we should have had. By the time I was in high school, I was a terrible student and not interested in school. Just wasn't. And by then my father's company was in a stable. And I kind of felt that that was going to be my future. Wasn't really what I wanted to do. And I met some kid that was involved in drug trafficking.
- [03:08]
B
What was he doing exactly?
- [03:09]
A
He was snorting cocaine and he used cocaine. And he felt that it would be easier to get cocaine if he sold it rather than buying it. And that is what prompted me to get involved that conversation. I said, well, how much does it cost and how does it work? And I was always kind of entrepreneurial, even as a 20 year old or as a 19, I guess I was 20 at the time. And around that time, this movie Scarface came out. And that was what exposed me to this idea of drug trafficking. It was 1984.
- [03:42]
B
It's really amazing how often Scarface comes in conversations that I have in so many drug dens around the world. Whether you can be halfway around the world, definitely here in the US A lot. There are posters of Scarface on the walls. It's like it really has had an impact.
- [03:56]
A
So I think most people would just see it as an entertainment and they've really understood the ending that you die or go to prison.
- [04:01]
B
Right. But you did not.
- [04:03]
A
I heard. I was driving down the road. I remember driving down the road and I heard the advertisement. And I didn't know what Scarface was about, but the guy sounded like my dad. He sounded like a Cuban. And I said, that guy sounds like my dad. And that's what prompted me to go see the movie. And I was 20 and I saw the movie and it looked like fun. I mean, that's all I saw. That looks great. And the hot chicks, fast cars.
- [04:28]
B
Was this also the time of Miami Vice for our last. Yeah.
- [04:31]
A
And all that was also kind of influenced me around the same time.
- [04:35]
B
Right. So you watched Miami Vice? Yes, I was obsessed with Miami Vice.
- [04:38]
A
Yeah, I loved the clothes and all that stuff. And I remember then Colin, my father, escaped from Cuba. So I called his friend's son, who I knew because when we went to Miami, we'd stay at their house. His name was Tony, of course, you know. And I just said, you live in Miami. You grew up, Mom. You must know somebody that sells cocaine.
- [05:00]
B
So you just came out to him and said, I'm on the phone. Wow. On the phone. I'm just interested in this business.
- [05:05]
A
Yeah. I'm curious. What does it cost? How much does a kilo cost?
- [05:08]
B
You're 20 years old.
- [05:09]
A
I was 20. And what he said, and he gave me the number. And I don't know if that was first or the second part was I used to go to these nightclubs a lot. And so I knew people who used cocaine. I didn't use cocaine, but I knew people who did. So I would say, what is. What does it cost if you buy cocaine? You must know somebody who sells cocaine. Find out what it costs.
- [05:27]
B
Do you remember how much it was at that time?
- [05:29]
A
Yes, I remember that. They told me it sold for, like, $50,000 a kilogram, I think Seattle over.
- [05:35]
B
Right around 100k now.
- [05:37]
A
Oh, I don't know. I'm out of.
- [05:38]
B
I know you're out of this. I know this because I've interviewed people.
- [05:40]
A
I don't know what it sells for now, but back then, it was like 50 or $52,000.
- [05:46]
B
Okay.
- [05:47]
A
And Tony told me I could buy it in Miami for like, $22,000. So, like, huge spread, right? And I thought, well, if there's that much spread, I could hire people to fly to Miami, pick it up, and drive it to Seattle. And that was my whole idea, was I would never touch it. Right. I would.
- [06:04]
B
You were the kingpin.
- [06:05]
A
Well, that's what I got convicted of. But it was then I had to get the money. So I had to lie to my dad and say that I was doing something for the company and I was going to buy some. By then, we were doing primarily freeway work. And I had a. You know, he trusted me, and I said, oh, there's a company going out of business. I'm going to make a cash offer for their equipment. And that's how I got the cash. My whole idea was, get the cash from my dad's company, go buy these kilos, bring the Miami, sell them, and then replace my dad's money and say that they didn't buy it, they didn't accept my offer.
- [06:39]
B
How much money did you ask?
- [06:40]
A
I took 100 rand. $100,000 out.
- [06:42]
B
Okay.
- [06:43]
A
And that was my first transaction. So it was a lot of money back then. And I had no idea what I was doing. I could have been killed. I Had no clue what I was doing.
- [06:50]
B
I have lots of questions about this. So this was about 5 kilos of cocaine, basically.
- [06:55]
A
Well, actually we got. As I recall, it was 10.
- [06:57]
B
Oh, wow. Okay.
- [06:58]
A
You can feel. Because I got credit. So they said, if you give me this much, then you pay. And so that's how I got started. Yeah. And that led to me hiring people.
- [07:08]
B
And how do you recruit people?
- [07:09]
A
Oh, just kids I went to school with.
- [07:11]
B
And you just said, yeah, sure, well.
- [07:12]
A
Sure, they're working for $12 an hour or something like that. And I said, I'm gonna give you a full first class trip to Miami, drive it back and I'll give you five grand or something like that. Right. And they were happy to do that. And, you know, these were all kind of living on the edge kids.
- [07:28]
B
And at this point you weren't thinking at all about what the possible consequences were if you get caught.
- [07:32]
A
Well, I felt that I wouldn't get caught because I didn't ever touch it. So I didn't. The wisdom of a 20 year old.
- [07:38]
B
You know, that's why they say men's brains take a little longer to develop.
- [07:42]
A
Certainly mine did. I'm still developing. I was 20 and I believed that if I hired somebody to drive it and he drove it across country and had somebody else store it, and then he gave it to the person who wanted to buy it and I'd get the money, I'd give the money back to my father, and that's how it started.
- [07:57]
B
Okay.
- [07:57]
A
And it lasted for about a year.
- [08:01]
B
How many trips or how? Do you have any idea how much cocaine you brought up?
- [08:05]
A
Well, I know what I was charged with and what I was convicted of, and I think that's probably accurate. Perhaps 100 kg or so over time. I mean, a lot, but not like people I knew, not Pablo Escobar. But, you know, it was a lot, I think, for the community. And certainly I was a serious drug offender for that district.
- [08:26]
B
Okay, so you've been doing this for a year. What are you doing? How much money are you making and what are you doing with that money?
- [08:31]
A
I'm living like a 20 year old kid that has all the money in the world. So, you know, just spending it on what? Boats, cars, going to nightclubs and girls.
- [08:44]
B
And wasn't your family suspicious at this point? When.
- [08:46]
A
Yeah, and I would. And I'm so we lived in Seattle, so I moved to Miami and quit my father's business and caused just really a lot of chaos in my family.
- [08:57]
B
Did you tell them? Did you pretend that you had a new job offer there.
- [09:01]
A
What, did you lie about it? I pretended that I was working for my girlfriend's father, which was just a lie. I mean, my mother knew what I was doing. She was crying and telling me, I know what you're doing, and she's crying. I said, I'm not saying that. I would never do that. I would lie right to their face.
- [09:15]
B
How do you think she knew? Because she's a mother.
- [09:18]
A
She's a mother. And she knew that I was running with these crowds and just assumed I was doing something criminal. But drugs? Probably not thinking it was drugs, because my father really hated drugs. You know, he's a Cuban, and he hated that whole stigma of drugs. But I was really independent and had a strong personality, and I made really bad decisions.
- [09:42]
B
So you're moving. You move to Miami and you're making a lot of money, spending a lot of money. Cars, boats, and then clothes. Clothes. And what was one of the craziest things you did with money at that time?
- [09:53]
A
I don't know.
- [09:53]
B
I hear sometimes these stories of people like renting helicopters.
- [09:56]
A
No, I didn't do that. I kept investing it back into more cocaine. You know, I mean, I'd spend whatever I needed to spend, and I would be with women and buy them whatever they wanted to spend and go on trips. But I was just outside of the.
- [10:09]
B
Country, like around the world.
- [10:10]
A
I moved to Marbella.
- [10:12]
B
Oh, yeah. In Spain.
- [10:13]
A
Okay. Yeah, I moved to Marbella. And so when somebody got arrested that was close to me, I worried that, well, something could happen. And I'd been involved for about a year. And when he got arrested, I just thought, well, it's kind of dangerous. And I thought that it was a good time for me to just leave the United States. I was then with a woman, and she had been to Marbella and told me how amazing it was. I said, well, let's go. And I bought a property there and was going to build my life there. So once that my friend got arrested and he was primarily the end distributor, he would distribute it to the people. So, you know, if 10 keys came in or so, he might give three here, two here, one, and then get money and then pass me cash.
- [10:56]
B
He was distributing to this to the street dealers.
- [11:00]
A
Well, higher level, street little, because it's still. We're still distributing kilograms. So a kilogram might be distributed by somebody who breaks it into ounces or something like that.
- [11:08]
B
Was this pure cocaine?
- [11:10]
A
Yes. Okay. Yeah. So it was.
- [11:12]
B
And would you know where it was coming from?
- [11:14]
A
I would assume Colombia or Peru.
- [11:15]
B
Right.
- [11:16]
A
You know, but I didn't know, really. I just trusted my friend in Miami.
- [11:20]
B
Right.
- [11:20]
A
And so that's how it started. When I moved to Marbella, it was because people started to get arrested. And I just thought, well, there's a possibility somebody will say something about me. And I remember landing in Spain and feeling as though, oh, I'm free again. There's nobody looking at me, nobody knows me. And I started to build my life there. And outside of drug trafficking, yeah, I was done drug trafficking with that.
- [11:44]
B
Marbella is sort of like a Miami in Spain.
- [11:46]
A
Right.
- [11:47]
B
It has that.
- [11:47]
A
And at that time, yeah, it was that way, but it was still. It was a growing city.
- [11:51]
B
Right.
- [11:51]
A
But it was a very live city like Miami.
- [11:54]
B
Yeah. Lots of parties.
- [11:55]
A
Yeah. So I was enjoying my life there and planning on building a property on this land I bought. But I missed the United States. Cause nobody spoke English and I didn't speak Spanish. So I felt odd there. And I wasn't well educated, so I didn't have a real idea of how I would start my Life. I was 22, and I didn't know what I would do. I was just in love with a woman and trying to build my life that had no roots and no foundation. And then I missed people speaking English. And so I remember calling and I had a lawyer, and I asked, Called the lawyer and I said, is there anything at all on me? Anything, Anybody looking at me? And he said. He said, I didn't even know you were gone. And so, yeah, I'm in Spain. He said, well, yeah, there's nothing on you. You can come back if you want to. And so, great. So I came back. And in August 11, 1987, that was when I was arrested, and that was it.
- [12:51]
B
Do you think he actually didn't know, or was he.
- [12:54]
A
I think I did not have an honest attorney, an attorney who told me what I wanted to hear rather than what I needed to hear, and saw me as somebody who could pay his fee. So he was not an honest counselor and saying, you've made a lot of bad decisions.
- [13:08]
B
I wouldn't come back if I were you.
- [13:10]
A
Well, it was the right thing to do, to come back, because I didn't want to be a criminal and a fugitive for the rest of my life. But I didn't know what to do. And so a good counselor, a good lawyer would have said, you know, you've made some bad decisions.
- [13:20]
B
Yeah, you should come back. But here I'm just going to come.
- [13:22]
A
Back, and you should make things. You should make things Right. And you should pay the price so that you can get your life back. Because I could probably get you five years and you could start your life there was 23. When you're 28 and you start a life. But he gave me a different message. And that message was, was with the right amount of money, you could win. And that's what I wanted to hear, not what I needed to hear. And so I made really bad decisions.
- [13:46]
B
What happened? So you got.
- [13:47]
A
So I came home. I started to establish myself in Miami. And again, I probably came home in July, late July, August 11th. I'm in this condo in Key Biscayne. That's where I lived. And I just leased the condo. And I remember the morning I went out to a furnishing store, and my wife. I got married. Her name was Gail. And she called home and there was a maid there that lived there. And she didn't speak English. So my wife was South American, so she would talk to her. And I saw the look on her face. Something's wrong. And then she hung up. And she said, there's three policemen at the house. They want to talk to you from Seattle. Wow. So I'm in Miami, and there's no reason that police officers from Seattle would come to Miami. So I knew I'm in trouble. So I went to see my lawyer, and the lawyer told me, you've been indicted, and they're. They're there to arrest you. He. He did some calls or something. He said, you're under indictment. I said, what should I do? And he said, just go home and get arrested and I'll come see you in the jail tonight and hopefully get you out today. Hmm. So that was. That was the start. So I went home. As soon as I was walking to my place, they. The three officers pointed their guns at me and said, you're under arrest. And I was taken into custody, and they really wanted me to cooperate. So they kept pressing me, you know, you can go home. We'll let you out right now, but you have to tell us now. And I said, I'll say anything you want, but you're gonna have my attorney. I wouldn't talk without an attorney. And they said, if that's really the way you wanna go, then we're gonna take. Going to book you and take you in. I said, I'm not saying anything about my attorney. And they took me to the detention center and I was processed in, and I had a. To confront and talk with my parents for the first time, because you have a phone call, and I Remember, my parents were crying, you know, over the phone.
- [15:39]
B
What did you say to them exactly?
- [15:41]
A
I said, this is, this is nonsense. They arrested me for nothing. I just lied. I was just lying and my parents were crying. I said, what are you doing? You don't have to lie to us. We love you. Whatever you want, whatever you want, we want you here to support you. And I said, but I didn't do anything. And so I'm just still perpetuating the lie. And I got went to detention, what's called a detention hearing, a bond hearing the next morning. Then the U.S. attorney came from Seattle to represent the U.S. government. And they did not want me to get a bond. And so I was held what's called pre trial detention. And then they ordered me to be shipped from Miami to Seattle, where I was supposed to go stand trial. And I got to Seattle and I brought my Miami lawyer to represent me in Seattle. Another really bad decision.
- [16:28]
B
Why?
- [16:28]
A
Well, the first thing, I didn't have a lawyer that was honest with me, but it was either way, if you're facing a criminal case, in my view, you should have a lawyer from the local jurisdiction who knows the prosecutor and knows the judge and knows the protocol and he has respect. When you're tried in Seattle and you bring a lawyer from Miami on a drug case, it even makes you look more guilty.
- [16:49]
B
Right.
- [16:49]
A
All right. I mean, how does a kid who's 23 bring a lawyer from Miami to represent you? The judge probably right there is going to be. There's. Jimmy. Judicial bias from it because. No, nobody would do that.
- [17:03]
B
And so then you were there for how long pre trial?
- [17:05]
A
A year. And I was in solitary confinement for a year.
- [17:08]
B
So this, this is before you were even convicted, right?
- [17:11]
A
Yeah.
- [17:11]
B
And this is what's crazy because isn't there some crazy statistic about. It was something like. I think I wrote it down actually, that roughly 2/3 of people in US jail, so over 450,000 on any given day are pretrial detainees. Meaning they have not been convicted yet.
- [17:26]
A
Yes.
- [17:27]
B
So that's crazy. I think this number is.
- [17:30]
A
There's. When we incarcerate more people than any.
- [17:32]
B
Other nation, one in every 20 inmates global in the world are Americans here detained.
- [17:39]
A
And a lot of them are for drugs. This is the start of the war on drugs. Ronald Reagan was in the White House at that time. So the law was changing. I don't understand it because I'd never been in custody before. So I don't understand anything because I'm. First of all, I'm locked In solitary.
- [17:54]
B
Why solitary, by the way?
- [17:55]
A
Because I was charged with being a kingpin. There's no weapons in my case, and there were no violence alleged in my case, but I was this. I had this charge of being what's called a continuing criminal enterprise.
- [18:06]
B
So I remember asking you how much money you were making or how much money you made, and I don't think you actually answered. Maybe it's because you don't want to, but you mind?
- [18:12]
A
No, no, I don't mind at all. I mean, everything's public and I don't really know, but I'm going to guess three or four million dollars or so. But in the mid-1980s, that was a lot of money. Yeah, it's a lot of money for especially a young person that doesn't have any discipline and spends freely. And a lot of that money I would make would buy more coke and do it that way, but I was certainly spending a lot of money.
- [18:35]
B
Okay, so that's why you were in solitary.
- [18:38]
A
So I'm in solitary.
- [18:39]
B
I mean, it must have been so crazy.
- [18:41]
A
Well, it was actually good for me. I would say that was a blessing for me. And the reason it was a blessing is because I wasn't around other people in jail or prison, where I would learn how to live in jail. Prison. And that's. That is a big problem in America, in my view now, as we'll get into. I'm sure I go and speak in prisons and try and change the system. And I always ask a question. How many of you have heard the term that the best way to serve time is to forget about the world outside and just focus on your time in prison. And wherever I go, the hands always go up. Everybody hears that message. It is a universal code in American jails and prisons. Forget about the world outside and focus on your time. I've heard that.
- [19:23]
B
Yeah.
- [19:24]
A
And it's a terrible. And I always say to them, anybody who tells you that is not your friend. They are not your friend. If you're getting that message, it's going to teach you how to live in prison, which simultaneously means how to fail in society. And I didn't get that message because I was in solitary. So when I was going through to the judicial process, which is a series of court proceedings and evidence gathering and waiting for trial, I was listening to my attorney who would tell me, don't talk to anybody. Well, that wasn't hard because I'm insult. I'm in solitary, and I'm not mixing with people, but I'm also not thinking about what options do I have? But I'm also not hearing, join a gang or do this or forget about the world. And so I'm reading and thinking and plotting, okay, how am I going to get through this? And believing, Diluting myself into believing that I really didn't break the law because I didn't touch cocaine. And that's what I would tell myself. Well, I didn't do it. Somebody else did it. They have their own free will. They're all consenting adults. You know, not recognizing, you're in real trouble. And I knew the charge, but I said, I'm not a real kingpin. I know kingpins. I'm not a kingpin. I'm just a. You know, made bad decisions, was in denial, lying to my family. My grandparents stopped speaking to me, which was very difficult. And my mother was humiliated, my sisters were humiliated, my wife leaving me. So, like, yeah, the world's falling. And I don't blame her. I mean. I mean, I'm 20. She's young and beautiful, and she's gonna, you know, sit in jail with me for life. She didn't sign up for that. And I don't blame anybody for anything but me. But I don't get it at that time. I don't get it until a jury convicts me. And when a jury convicts me of every count and I'm facing life in prison, that's when I realized, wow, this is going to last.
- [21:15]
B
So when you heard the guilty of.
- [21:17]
A
Every count, of every count, and there's.
- [21:19]
B
Like 30 counts, what was your reaction to that?
- [21:22]
A
And what.
- [21:22]
B
Were your parents in the room at the time? In the courtroom?
- [21:25]
A
Yes, I believe they were in the courtroom. So the trial lasts several weeks. A lot of people come to testify against you. Against me.
- [21:34]
B
And at this point, you're realizing, oh, this is not going to end well?
- [21:37]
A
Well, no, because I thought they had all gotten caught with something. So they. It seemed to me, why would they believe them? They got caught with drugs, and they're saying, I did it. I confess, he did it. It didn't strike me. I mean, I. I was really in denial. I was in. I was not ready to accept responsibility at all. And I. I was going all in. And then my attorney was feeding my mindset of what I wanted to hear, so. And you're afraid. But I believed I was going to win because I didn't get caught with drugs. They didn't have any telephone recordings of me. They didn't catch me with any money. They just had this testimony. They had a lot of it. So it was just. I deluded my. And I took the witness stand and I lied on the witness stand. I mean, I made every bad decision you could make, so I took the witness stand and I perjured myself on the witness stand. But there were five people that went to trial. Three of them got acquitted.
- [22:31]
B
All of which were part of your.
- [22:32]
A
Yeah, they're everybody. There's all part of.
- [22:34]
B
But they were under you. You were.
- [22:35]
A
Yeah, I was the kingpin. I was the. I was the boss. That's so nice to say that, but. Yeah. So I was the. The number one on the indictment. So I did not get acquitted. I was. So when they're getting acquitted, I'm thinking, oh, great, this is going great. And then when they started to read the verdict for the second guy, he got convicted. And then I said, oh, but it didn't start out getting kidding. It was not guilty, not guilty, not guilty, guilty, something like that. And then Michael Santos, that was the last one they read. And then it was guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty. Like 30 counts. So now I'm realizing it and that.
- [23:14]
B
I'm trying to picture you at this moment. Were you shaking, crying. Well, happening with you.
- [23:19]
A
So I don't know if it was before the verdict or after the verdict. I had. I started to have biological breakouts and things that, you know what a boil is. So my body would break out in boils, and I. And. And it was very painful because it was a stress. They would tell me it was a stress, and so, like, they were very hot. And I remember I'm sitting in a cell, and I'd get this big bubble on my arm, and they'd have to. I'd go to that. What do you call it? The medical place. And then they'd lancet and the pus would come out. And then it seemed like as soon as it happened, I'd just start feeling another one. And that happened for a long time. I think that was after the verdict. But something also happened that gave me a tremendous amount of strength after that, all I knew is that when my grandparents stopped talking to me and my sister said they wouldn't take my calls, I felt just really small and felt as if I had made just an irreconcilable. In fact, there was something that happened before that gave me that vision that I had that your life goes through these turns in the road. And when I got. Long before I moved to Miami or just what prompted me to move to Miami was a transaction that happened that somebody else got caught. And when he got caught, I tried to save him, and I took him to our business's lawyer. And I remember that lawyer. When I brought him there, the lawyer, because this guy got caught with drugs. I wasn't involved in that deal, but it was a way for me to get involved because there was a money transaction. He got caught with money, and I tried to help him get the money back. And I brought him to my dad's lawyer. And my dad's lawyer afterward called me, said, this guy's name was Michael. So he said, are you with Michael right now? And I said, no. And he said, be honest with me. Was. Did you have anything to do with that money? Was that your money? Or was that really. Because I told him it was my money. I told that whole construction transaction I said I was going to do. I started it with him first. And the lawyer said, is that really your money? And I said, no, it's not. And he said, okay. He said, I'm going to tell you something. You have a brilliant future in construction business in this city, your dad's company, and what you can do. And he said, I smell drug. I smell drugs. And he said, I want you to turn as far away from you can of that guy and never don't take his calls. Don't do anything with him, because you're going to get yourself in trouble. And I remember hanging up the phone and kind of going through my own mental calculations. I've really burned a bridge because no matter what I do, that guy's always going to see me as this. He'll never see me as he saw me yesterday. And that's what pushed me to say, let me just go all in on this thing and I'll make a lot of money. That was just a devastatingly difficult. I mean, you look back and you see the crossroads. That was one crossroads in my life.
- [25:56]
B
Yeah, it was an opportunity for you to get the right decision. I guess somebody was putting it out there.
- [26:00]
A
I'd already put a bad decision. I don't know if I could have recalibrated at that point without going through some healing or something, But I'd gone. Instead of turning away and doing the right thing, I went deeper in. I went all in. And that's kind of been a tendency in my life. And then I'm in the hole and I get convicted. And then there was another turning point, and it was a good one, which was. So after I was convicted, if you're in solitary, they bring your food and they pass it through the door. So you get to know some of the officers who are doing that task. And there was an officer. His name was Officer Wilson. I'd love to go back and thank him because he changed my life. And you didn't think a correctional officer is ever going to change your life.
- [26:43]
B
This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. This past October 10th was World Mental Health Day. And I want to make sure I say thank you to all the therapists out there. Therapy has been life changing for so many people in my life and for millions of folks around the world. For every life change, there's someone who showed up, someone who listened, and somebody who asked the right question at the right time. If something is weighing on you, if something is keeping you up at night, talking to a licensed therapist can make all the difference. BetterHelp has 12 plus years of matching people to the right therapist. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, Having served over 5 million people around the world. And guess what? It worked with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. So this World Mental Health Day, we're celebrating the therapists who've helped millions of people take a step forward. If you're ready to find the right therapist for you, BetterHelp can help you start that journey. The hidden third. Listeners get 10% off their first month@betterhelp.com Mariana that's betterhelp.com Mariana.
- [28:02]
A
I'm in this hole and I'm the whole way through. They come and say, well, how's it going? I said, oh, they're never going to convict me. You know, I'm like this, putting on the front. I remember after the verdict, he came to me, he says, well, how did it go? It didn't go well. I was convicted of every count. And he said, how are you handling it? I said, well, processing it, kind of trying to figure out what it means. I've been in jail for about a year already. He said, well, I have something. I think I can help you. I'm going to bring you a book tomorrow. And he brought me this book and it was a biography of Frederick Douglass. And I don't know who Frederick Douglass is. I don't know anything. I was a terrible student. And I read this book. And for those who don't know Frederick Douglass, I didn't know him. He was born during the era of slavery, and that's all he knew was being enslaved. And I remember he escaped. This is the way that I remember that Book. He escaped when he was 20. But instead of escaping and going on to live his life, he decided to want to change the system. And he had to go through a process. He had to learn to read and to write and to become a communicator. And then he had this role in becoming a very influential abolitionist. And I remember being in the cell, I said, maybe that's something I can do. I could learn to read and to write, and I'll find a way to change the system, and that'll be way my grandparents will love me again, you know? And then. And he'd come, the officer would come, and I'm in a blocked cell. So he's talking to me through this narrow window, and we're talking about what I learned. And they said, I'm going to bring you another book. And he brought me Plato's the Republic. And it was the allegory of the cave that moved me.
- [29:34]
B
I remember that so well. Yeah.
- [29:35]
A
So not only allegory of the cave. No, it was the other one. It was the Krita that was first the Krita. So I could relate because these people were in jail. And Socrates is facing his execution, and he has this opportunity to leave. And he says, no, I'm going to stay. Do you know this story? No.
- [29:51]
B
Can you remind me?
- [29:52]
A
I remember the alagir. This is a great story. So I use the alligator cave as well. And it's a funny story about how even you say the word the algar of the cave. And I'll tell you, in the Crito, Socrates was arrested and he was sentenced to death. Not for selling cocaine, for teaching against that was against the law for people of one class to teach another. And Socrates believed that every human being has the right to learn and to teach and grow. And so he would teach. And he was convict, charged and convicted and sentenced to death. And at that time, he was held in detention in a cell until they would carry out the execution. And his friend's name is Crito, and he comes to visit him and he said, don't worry, nobody really wants you to die. And we've taken a lot of troubles to get things out. And the jailer's gonna let you out tonight, and your friends are gonna support you in exile, and you'll be able to live the rest of your life in peace. And Socrates said, no, I'm going to stay. And Cretus says, but you're gonna die. Why would you stay? Yes, I'm going to die. He said, why would you do that? And he said, because I live in a democracy, and in a democracy we've got to take the good with the bad. This is a bad law. But I knew the law. I have the right to change laws. I don't believe, and I don't have the right to break laws. And I would rather die with my dignity intact for something I believe in than run away like a coward for something that I knew was wrong. And that really changed my life. I remember putting it on my desk and lying on my cell and looking up and just saying, is there anything I can do? Anything?
- [31:27]
B
Yeah, it's like one of the most important teachings of all, that we're all made equal. Like nobody is above anyone else. And that humility is very important.
- [31:37]
A
So all of those books start now to have a whole different meaning to me. I've been in jail for a year. I'm in solitary. Socrates helps me to get that message of, well, Socratic thinking, asking questions. And so I start asking questions. Is there anything I can do while I'm in here? Anything that would cause people to see me, not for the bad decisions that I made, but how I responded to them? That's a yes or a no question. It's not really a Socratic question. It's a yes or a no question. My answer is there probably is something, but what is it? Because I didn't know what it was. And that's why I said it was a gift for me to be in the hole. Cause had I been in the general population, people would have been telling me how to surf time. And I would have probably been influenced by them. Instead, I got influenced by Socrates. So I was sitting there and kind of processing it and I came up with this three part plan, thinking about the people I want to meet in the future. And I'd say one of them, they would probably want me to get an education. Because if I get an education, that means I don't want to be a criminal anymore. And the second prong of my little approach was they would want me to contribute to society in some kind of meaningful, measurable way. So if I could find a way to do that, like Frederick Douglass did, maybe I recalibrate and I make amends. And third, if I could somehow build a support network and find people to believe in me that I don't know and that don't know me, if I could build something, you know. And that became my three part plan. And I got so excited, it was a turning point for them. I found my way, I'm gonna find my way out of prison. And I am feeling as though this is the way I'm going to atone.
- [33:20]
B
And this is all happening within the first few months after your sentencing, correct?
- [33:24]
A
Because no, before sentence.
- [33:25]
B
Before sentence. So at this point you'd have no idea how long you're spending.
- [33:28]
A
I'm facing life, I don't know what I'm going to get. And I remember getting sitting on, you know, you're in a cell and it's like a concrete slab and a little mat on the top of it. And we only have pencils that are like this tall because it could be a weapon. So I wrote to the journalist at the newspaper that had been covering my case and I said, you wrote a lot about my case during the trial. I said, but I'm gonna change my life when I'm in prison. I got inspired and this is what I'm gonna do. And if you wanna know how, come see me and I'll tell you the story. And I was telling what I wanted to learn. I didn't really know about prison. I knew what I learned and what I wanted to do and I felt like I had a purpose and that helped me. So the journalist came and he writes a top of the fold newspaper article for the newspaper. And I go to get sentenced. And I remember the judge read the article at sentencing, it says what he's going to do, what I'm going to do. And then I always remember the prosecutors that if Michael Santos says he's going to change his life in prison, but we believe if he spends every day in an all consuming effort to repay society and if he lives to be 300 years old, our society will still be at a significant net loss. And sounds like a tough thing to say, but in retrospect it was the thing I needed to hear because now I know I'm going, I'm going into an environment that obliterates hope and I have to find my way in there and nobody's going to care about my life. I have to find the way. The judge then sentenced me to 45 years. And I didn't know what 45 years meant. Okay. I don't understand administrative credits and things of that sort. So I'm just trying to process 45 years. I'm 23, I'll get out when I'm 68 and I don't know understand it, but then I get go back to solitary and eventually I get transferred to a prison and that's when I start to meet other people in prison and that's when I start to kind of learn that. Oh, I could get out in 26 years.
- [35:24]
B
When you got the 45 year sentence at the time, did you, I know you were facing life in prison. Did you, Were you, Was it a relief or was it more than you expected?
- [35:34]
A
Well, I had. The minimum I could get was 10 years. My lawyers had told me, you probably won't get life because there's no violence, no guns, they said, but you could get 60 years or something like that. And I didn't know what that meant.
- [35:47]
B
Right.
- [35:48]
A
I had no clue what that meant. 60 years life. It is life, isn't it?
- [35:52]
B
You get 60 years and no one this just to put into perspective, you wouldn't get that conviction.
- [35:56]
A
Actually the lawyers used to tell me you'd win on appeal because remember, the lawyers are mercenaries. Oh, this conviction will never stand. You've got a great shot on appeal. And so you were still.
- [36:06]
B
There was still.
- [36:07]
A
But I had given up on that. When I was convicted, that was the end. That was when I realized, I'm done. I don't wanna be a criminal.
- [36:15]
B
And yeah, just to put things into perspective, this was like you said, the Reagan years. Right. And the minimum sentencing was a big thing. He was trying to make an example out of people like you by giving them really big.
- [36:26]
A
I think I made things really worse by testifying, by lying, by lying, by getting on the witness stand and putting my hand on the Bible and swearing to tell the truth. That was very bad and it hurt me a lot. It was very bad that I didn't accept responsibility and plead guilty. I made a lot of really bad decisions.
- [36:44]
B
You're given 45 years and you end up going to a different prison. Where was that?
- [36:49]
A
So now I get sent to what's called a high security penitentiary in Atlanta.
- [36:53]
B
Was that a supermax at that time?
- [36:55]
A
There were not really notice, but there was one, there was one of the ones called Marion at that time. And Marion was a supermax and supermax is typically a five year program. So they'd be in the five year program and then they get released and that my prison was where they would get released.
- [37:09]
B
Okay, so just a high security prison.
- [37:11]
A
It's a high security United States penitentiary.
- [37:13]
B
With a lot but very volatile, very violent people.
- [37:16]
A
Yes.
- [37:17]
B
And what was your first day?
- [37:18]
A
So the first thing is, for me it was very exciting to get there because I'd been in solitary. So you're in a room where this is how much room you have and there's no fresh air and I hadn't breathed air and I hadn't been around people. So I was excited, I was excited to get there. I knew it was going to be a challenge, but I looked forward to experiencing the challenge and feeling as though, okay, when I get there, at least I'll find my way. And I had my way. I knew I was gonna get an education, I was gonna find a way and I had my path and I couldn't wait to get started. But then you drive there and it's somewhat intimidating to see cause there's a 40 foot wall all the way around the penitentiary. So you could see this wall and see this big institutional looking building with bars on it and fences outside of the wall and there's machine guns and towers around it. And you look at it and you're on the bus with a lot of people that are real crim, you know, very hardened people. And I was very young and I looked young, but I felt like I could get through it. I mean, I don't know why, but I felt like, you know, I'm not really religious. But you're in prison for a long time. You read the Bible. I read the Bible every day and God's going to be with me and I'm going to get through this. And I felt strongly that I would get through this. But I didn't know how to process it because I, I was thinking 45 years, I didn't understand this whole concept of good time yet, but I figured I'm going to focus on 10 years, that's going to be my plan. Because I don't know how to process 45 years. But 10 years I can process. 10 years ago I was 13, I remember, right.
- [38:54]
B
Oh, I'm thinking about that.
- [38:55]
A
That's right. And so I was saying, okay, well in 10 years I'm going to change my life. This is, that's all I'm going to focus on. It's getting a university degree. That would be how I would contribute to society. And I said I'm going to become a published author. Years, I'll find a way. That's how I'm going to contribute. I'll get an education with a university degree, I'll become a published author. And then I would find 10 people that I don't know and persuade them to believe in me.
- [39:17]
B
And all that actually happened.
- [39:18]
A
Oh yes. And it happened before 10, so it really gave me strength.
- [39:22]
B
But before we get there, so first day in prison, tell us what would I guess tell us what prison was like because gangs, the hierarchy, right. The contraband, all of that. Can you give us a little Picture of what that was like.
- [39:35]
A
You go through what's called the administrative process, where you get processed in and fingerprinted and stripped of your clothing and they give you prison clothes.
- [39:43]
B
Was your family there with you at the time?
- [39:44]
A
No, I'm in Atlanta. When I left the family business, I thought they were going to retire and they were going to move to Miami. Then they got divorced. I really blame myself for all these. The parade of horribles that followed. I get into the penitentiary, and I know I have to survive in there. And you observe what's going on. Right. And so there's people that are, like, clicking up, you know, racially and so on. I remember that a guard once asked me, he said, have you thought of growing facial hair? You look really young. But I didn't want to change.
- [40:19]
B
That will make you look tougher, maybe.
- [40:21]
A
I don't know. You know, I just always remember that I thought was a weird thing to say to me, so maybe thought I looked too girly. So I just. No, I just felt like I could get through it. And so I got into the prison. And when you get into the prison, some of the first questions you get are like, how much time do you have? You know, because that's like a statement of, how are you? Did you testify against somebody? You know, what kind of crime is it? I was a drug offender. I probably look like a drug offender, but I get onto this tier. And that was the first question. How much time do you serve? And there were two mafia guys, Dan and Paul, and they were old, much older than me.
- [41:05]
B
It's amazing that you remember their names.
- [41:08]
A
They were my protectors, actually. They became that.
- [41:11]
B
Why were they.
- [41:13]
A
They're mafia guys. So organized crime, people from the East.
- [41:16]
B
Yeah.
- [41:17]
A
And that environment, they're like the top of the food chain.
- [41:21]
B
And why did they want to protect you?
- [41:22]
A
Well, they didn't at first. They wanted to know if I was a rat. That was the first thing. So I'm standing and one was serving 24 years and one was serving 30. And they said, how much time do you have? And I said, I have 45 years. And they looked at me and said, what did you do to get 45 years? I said, ah, it's a drug case. And they started. This is the start of the war on drugs. So big sentences were not yet popular at that time. And they started laughing. So what did you do? And I said, well, at least, no, you're not a rat, you know. And that was then we started talking. They were right next door to me. And then we became friends. And because I was friends with them, I felt as though it's one of the reasons I had an easier adjustment. Because.
- [42:01]
B
Right. You had protectors.
- [42:02]
A
Yeah, kind of.
- [42:03]
B
Yeah. It's interesting, I interviewed a guy called Fabian Alomar who did nine years in prison. And he says the first thing he was given, and he was at a super. At a high security prison as well. And he told me that he got to prison, the staff gave him a pillow, a mattress, the sheets, whatever. And then the prisoners, the first thing they gave him, once they decided what group he was going to belong to, they gave him a knife that he would actually carry inside his butt.
- [42:30]
A
Yeah, that's really. Remember, I'm in 1988, so there's only like 35,000 people in federal prison at that time. It's much smaller now.
- [42:39]
B
It's like 2 million in jails and prisons.
- [42:41]
A
Well, jails and prisons, there was a lot, but I think there were like 600,000 people in jails and prison in custody at that time. And it really grew. So when I went to prison, there was not a huge drug group in prison. You know, there were drug people and other kinds of federal crimes. I guess drugs were big, but there was a lot of mafia people at that time where I was. So I never had those problems that people would have today. Right.
- [43:10]
B
You didn't have to carry a. I've never had a knife with you or anything.
- [43:15]
A
And I didn't even understand that.
- [43:16]
B
But there was definitely a hierarchy. Right. And there was definitely different groups.
- [43:19]
A
Oh, for sure.
- [43:20]
B
People belong to.
- [43:21]
A
And there were gangs.
- [43:22]
B
Yeah, gangs.
- [43:23]
A
But not like today. Yeah, not like today. And then I understood where I was. It was a dangerous place and there was a lot of hate. But for me, I was not in the hole. So I could go to the yard and I could breathe fresh air.
- [43:37]
B
Right. It was an upgrade.
- [43:38]
A
Yeah. And. Yeah. And I could look up and I could see the sky and it's blue.
- [43:42]
B
It was the Ritz.
- [43:42]
A
And it's amazing, you know.
- [43:44]
B
Right.
- [43:44]
A
And I'm hearing now is what I'm starting to hear. Forget about the world outside. Nothing matters. Just do your time. When I was there, you had to have a knife. One of you's got to take turns carrying it up your rectum.
- [43:55]
B
Wait, it's up your butt.
- [43:57]
A
That's the prison wallet. You never leave home alone and you.
- [43:59]
B
Have something protected around it, I'm assuming.
- [44:00]
A
Yeah. Or else you'll be bleeding out your coolo.
- [44:02]
B
I'm Ariana Van Zeller, and after reporting on Black Markets for my Emmy winning National Geographic show Trafficked. I'm launching a podcast. You're getting emotional on me. Intimate conversations with those operating in the shadows. The Hidden Third is out now with new episodes every Wednesday. Subscribe@YouTube.com marianavanzeller Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [44:27]
A
I wanted to go to school. So you start finding a way, you know it's dangerous. So you try to. I can't control what other people do, but I can control what I do. And I could kind of minimize my way, try to get myself in a situation that minimizes my exposure to volatility. And how did you do that? So I'd get up very early and that was a good time to go to the gym. I knew it would be very important to be strong.
- [44:49]
B
What's very early?
- [44:50]
A
Well, you can't get out of your cell till six because the doors are locked. So when the doors were opened, I was ready. I was suited up and ready to go. And I'd go to the gym because that's the best time for me to be at the gym. Other people are going to breakfast and doing whatever. But I would go to the gym and work out. And then from there I got a job. And I got a job in an office.
- [45:14]
B
Doing what?
- [45:15]
A
Typing? Yeah. So prisons sometimes have these, like, businesses. So there was a business that the government, I think at that prison, they would create mailbags for the U.S. postal Service. So I worked in the transportation office that would ship the mailbags to various post offices. And because I'm working in that office, I'm in the prison. But I'm not really mixing because I'm there for eight hours a day from 6 in the morning till like 7:15am in the gym, shower, quick, get to the work by 7:30, work until 3:30. And then typically you would go back to the housing yet. But I volunteered to be on this thing called suicide watch. So there's a lot of people that have mental health complications and they're on suicide watch. So they'd have a cadre of people that would be just observed, make sure they're not hanging themselves or doing something. And you just have to write in a book.
- [46:05]
B
You just sit outside their cell.
- [46:06]
A
You sit outside their cell. But it was a great place because it was a place where I could study. I'd gotten into school.
- [46:11]
B
Which school?
- [46:13]
A
Well, so it starts off, I always tell the people in prison how I did it because there's no school. But I'd start writing letters to Universities. There was a dictionary. I found a dictionary in the library, and it had in the back all the names of the universities. And I just start writing letters to.
- [46:27]
B
The universities and sort of introducing yourself.
- [46:29]
A
I'm Michael Santos. I made some bad decisions. I'm in prison, and I'd really like to get an education. Is there any way I can go to school? You know, and I used to. And I'd tell the people in prison, I said, so if you send one letter out, you're probably not going to get a response. Right. But if you send 10 letters out, I'd say you have a 10 times better chance of not getting a response. Response.
- [46:47]
B
Exactly. Exactly.
- [46:48]
A
So you got to be relentless. And so I'd send hundreds of letters up and I got a response from Ohio University. Wow. And they said, okay. They sent me my books. And I got those books. I didn't.
- [47:00]
B
For free or did you have to pay for.
- [47:01]
A
So at that time, there was funding. There was something called the Pell Grant, which was if you didn't make enough money in society, you could get a grant for college.
- [47:12]
B
Even if you were prisoners, it doesn't matter.
- [47:14]
A
At that time, it was just, you're based on your income. Well, I had no income, so I qualified. And so the school gave me the grant. And then I got my books and I was in school and I was studying.
- [47:25]
B
What were you studying?
- [47:26]
A
I just wanted a degree, so whatever I could study. And I got a degree. My undergraduate degree was in human resources management. So it was just study of people, basically, you know, but really how to manage people. People. And then I want.
- [47:40]
B
Which is an interesting degree to get when you're in prison.
- [47:42]
A
Yes. It was just. And it didn't matter to me what degree it was if I could get it to call. And that was the only one that they could make available to me that I could finish.
- [47:49]
B
Okay.
- [47:50]
A
So that's why I did it.
- [47:51]
B
Yeah.
- [47:51]
A
And then I wanted to go to law school, so I got the degree. 1992. So I got to prison in 88. Took me four years. It was really hard because you're not going to classify. You're learning on your own, reading and writing and. Yeah, it was just, you know, no teachers, but I was so proud to get it and I was learning. And then I didn't want to stop, so I wanted to go to law school. So I start writing to law schools. But I'm also building. I'm building relationships as well with professors. And they'd visit me in prison.
- [48:26]
B
You sent them letters. Is that how you built relationships or how.
- [48:29]
A
I remember, I was in. There was a kid in prison who told me his sister worked in a university and she had introduced him to a professor. And the professor was writing to him. And to me that was like a God. What, you know, a professor. That's so amazing. Do you think I could write to him?
- [48:46]
B
Yeah, some, some, some prisoners get excited about talking to women outside. You were excited about talking to professors?
- [48:51]
A
I wanted to talk to women too, but sure, but a professor was like, super. It could accelerate my plan. And so I was writing and I asked, could I write to him? And he said, let me ask him. And he asked him, and his name was Bruce, the professor was Bruce. And Bruce said, sure, give him my address. So I wrote to him and he eventually said, send me a visiting form, I'll come see you. And the only thing he wanted was me to be better. You know, that's the great thing about educators. You know, they don't want anything in return except to teach.
- [49:24]
B
And he, yeah, they want to have an impact in people's lives.
- [49:26]
A
And he would, took an enormous interest in me. He would send me books when he traveled. He'd say he'd go to museums and he'd send me art and introduce me to Picasso and, you know, impressionist painters and explain it to me. And he'd send me books and we'd discuss books. And I really needed to learn how to write because, you know, I wanted to transcend the wall. And so I, I, I would write and he would correct you, Edit, edit you. And boy, was he ruthless. So I really learned how to, I didn't know how to write a coherent sentence. You know, I'd start here and I put a period down here.
- [50:04]
B
So welcome to the world of journalism a lot.
- [50:07]
A
And, and, and, and, and he was a, I believe he was an English professor. So it was very helpful to me and very, really opened a lot of doors for me. And so that's, that was my journey of getting started in education. And I remember I went through a lot of learning processes in that first adjustment, because after a month you start to learn how the prison works and you have this thing called a team meeting with staff. And I was in a high security penitentiary, but by then I'd learned that there are other kinds of prisons. There's federal correctional institutions, there's medium security and low security. And I remember wanting to go to one of those other kinds of prisoners prisons. And I remember asking, is there any way I could go to one of those federal correctional institutions? And I was saying, federal judge sentenced you to 45 years. And this prison is built for people like you. And you should expect to serve your entire sentence here in the penitentiary. So I had this system that obliterates hope. But I, but I found my hope through literature and I would read and start learning. And that helped me grow stronger and helped me develop confidence.
- [51:17]
B
One of the things you said that I thought was so interesting was that it's the system of corrections is a system that warehouses humanity.
- [51:24]
A
One of the things that I say is that the longer we expose people to corrections, the less likely people are to function in society as law abiding citizens. And it's something I strive to change in my current work, is help people see prisons differently. We spoke about the allegory of the caves before, and I use that analogy. I said, and that story for people who don't know, you know, I'll just butcher it compared to the way that was told in the story. But there's this group of people that they were born, all they've ever known is what they see in front of them. Because their whole life, Socrates teaches, it's a story to teach, it's not real. But these people are raised in a cave and they've never seen anything but what's in front of them and behind them there's a light and there's things that's happening. And so there's a shadow on the wall. And they think that shadows are moving, are real, because they don't know anything differently until one person escapes and finds out, oh, it's an illusion. There is a different life and there are real things and there are shadows and we should understand. When I try to teach about prisons, I'll say, anybody who's not been alive or worked in prisons for more than 50 years, they only know what we have now. That's not how prisons always work. And prisons could be different. Instead of measuring justice by how many calendar pages turn when somebody's inside, we should focus on what the result that we want. Of course. So prison should be a process. It should not be the result you break the law, the process as you go through prison, but the result you want is a safer community.
- [52:59]
B
So let's focus on education, rehabilitation.
- [53:02]
A
And so that was something that I really believed in and wanted to have a role in changing. And so after I got my undergraduate and I tried to go to law school, I started writing to law schools. I was fortunate that, you know, many, all of them rejected me because they said, you can't go to law School while you're in prison. But one of them, Hofstra University in New York, wrote me and said, well, we can't let you into law school, but maybe you get a master's degree. What would you want to study? And that's what introduced me to cultural anthropology. Because they said, well, we don't have a. I said, I think that mass incarceration is one of the great social injustices of our time, and I want to learn about it, and I want to play a role in influencing change. And they said, well, we don't have criminal justice program here, Hofstra, but we have cultural anthropology. And, you know. And I said, well, what's that? He said, well, you're in the culture, and you're going to help people while you're in the culture. Explain the culture. And that led to this whole concept.
- [53:54]
B
Of ethnography, which is very similar to the work that I do in my world and black markets.
- [54:02]
A
So. So. So that became interesting. Yeah, really inspiring to me to have a role that might bring meaning to the world. And. And so I start that process of writing for publication these. The. The. These stories.
- [54:17]
B
Writing books. Yeah.
- [54:19]
A
Well, initially chapters, because I'm connecting with professors who write textbooks, and they invited me to write chapters for their books. And then one of them, I was in a PhD program for a while until a warden blocked me. Oh, why? Because he said, people, this is the start of mass incarceration. This is the mid-1990s, and they're saying, taxpayers don't want people in prison to get a PhD. Said, United States Penitentiary. It doesn't say United States University out there. So when they stopped me from going to school, I had to find something else, and writing became my elixir.
- [54:58]
B
And then you started writing chapters. And then eventually.
- [55:00]
A
And then one introduced me, said, a textbook author said, my publisher would like you to write a book. And then we'd sell it together for. In theory. And this, I believe, would become a pathway to advocacy, because I could influence people that are working in the system to have them see something different. And the whole concept for me was making it more like America, where the harder you work, you could earn freedom through merit instead of waiting for calendar pages to turn. So the harder you. If we incentivize people to pursue excellence, more people would pursue excellence. And. And that's what I really wanted to. To. To advance that concept and that idea. And. And so in the books that I would write, I would try to build that argument from telling the story of other people around me who were Serving time, learning what, what drove their motivations, what they wanted to do, how did they become who they are, what do they want to do in the future and then. And advance it. Building an argument around that. And, and that led to me getting these books published and they were used in universities. So now students are, you know, I'm executing my plan, I'm getting an education, I'm contributing to society, I'm a published author. And now people are learning about me and they're wanting to learn more about me. And it was through this way, ironically, I found the love of my life while I'm living in prison.
- [56:19]
B
We'll get to there.
- [56:21]
A
That's how that starts.
- [56:22]
B
I love that story, by the way. So how many books did you publish?
- [56:25]
A
So at that time, two about prison and then profiles from prison. But those are both for universities, those are both for academic books. They're published by academic publishers and they're used in criminal justice programs. And now I'm getting deeper into my sentence. So a couple of things happen because I got sought for my PhD program, I think I was in my eighth or ninth year, and then I had to pivot. And something's happening in the world at that time, because this is the late 1990s. And what's happening in the world, The Internet's starting when I went to prison. There's no Internet, there's no tech, that kind of stuff. But I'm reading about it and it's of kind growing. And I'm trying to get involved because we don't have access to any of that in prison. So I'm reading a lot about the web and I'm reading about the tech companies and I'm learning about growth. And I had this period where I'm really learning about the stock market because there's tech companies and they're on the stock. So I'm. I'm learning everything I can except how to actually do it. I used to dream about getting online. Cause I didn't know what it meant. Like, what does it mean to get on the Internet? How do you get on the Internet? I had no, I couldn't conceptualize that. Oh, well, you, you know, you go on the computer, but how do you get online? And what is this thing I'm reading about called a URL? I don't understand a mouse and a doctor, all these kinds of things. I don't understand it, but I want to be a part of it. And through writing, I start developing an income stream in prison. And I have to. I'm very Protective of my record. I don't want to get a disciplinary infraction at that time because I had all these. Now I've got all these professors that are believing in me, and they're part of my life. And I was worried that if I got a disciplinary infraction, they would abandon me. You know, you protect. Want to protect everything. So I remember going to the captain, and when I had this opportunity to start publishing, I asked if they would allow me to publish. And, you know, they. Bottom line is that they would say, you can't make money while you're in prison. And so I said, well, what if I assign the rights to my family? Could they have. Because I have no rights. If I assign the rights, I don't make money, they do. And I remember one guy said to me, he said, well, I've got enough problems in this prison. If that's all you're doing, I'm not going to look at that. So that's how I started to make money in prison, and I started to invest that money, and it really changed my life because I started investing in these tech companies like America Online, and I made a lot of money in prison from those investments. So. So this is all changing for me. And that's what leads me to eventually meeting the woman I'm married.
- [59:01]
B
So you have somebody on the outside, somebody in your family. Your sister who was doing this, she was like.
- [59:06]
A
She was.
- [59:06]
B
Is she wondering, like, how are you? Why are you such a good investor? Are you making money?
- [59:10]
A
I was lucky. Luck, big skill. Every time. Good job. I remember I got this first check from publishing. It was, you know, insignificant, but I'd learned about investing because I'm reading the Wall Street Journal, Investors Business Daily and books. And this is my whole life in prison, reading and studying. But I didn't have any money until I got this money. And I remember I called her and I said, hey. Because she said, what do you want to do? It was like. I think it was like $2,000. Said, what do you want to do with $2,000? And I said, I want you to open a brokerage account online. And she said, well, how do I do that? And I'm saying, there's a company that's called E Trade. Wow. And so she says, okay. And then she goes, I don't want to put my credit card online. You know, that's the way it was back then, right? I don't trust all that stuff. I says, come on, it's happening. And so my sister's just, like, totally supportive of me. And she's asking, what if it loses? I said, so I'll lose the money. It's two grand, you know, but I don't need the $2,000. I want to invest in my future. And I don't only want to invest 2,000. I want you to borrow a thousand against the 2,000 and use it on margin. And she's asking me, what does all this mean? How does this. And I'm explaining it, and I always remember we buy it and we're doing it on the phone, and she says, oh, my God, you already made a hundred dollars, like in seconds. Because it was like. It was. Actually. The first company I bought was Yahoo. And she said, what's a Yahoo? And I said, it's something the search engine. I don't really know, but find it. It's got an exclamation point at the end.
- [60:43]
B
It has a cool name.
- [60:44]
A
Yeah. And so. And I'd read about the company, and it was one of the dominant Internet companies that I'm reading about at that time. And so it goes. And, you know, there's a crazy volatility. And I kept going up, and I did really well. I was very fortunate. So just focusing on two companies, America Online and Yahoo, and kept leveraging it up. Every time I earned more equity, I could borrow more and buy bigger position. And so I'm becoming financially strong in prison.
- [61:12]
B
And hopefully you sold those soon after because they went down fast.
- [61:18]
A
So I leveraged and I made a million dollars in prison.
- [61:22]
B
No, you didn't.
- [61:22]
A
Yeah, starting with 2000. So starting with 2000, it goes. And it goes up to like a million dollars.
- [61:29]
B
What time span?
- [61:30]
A
So what happens is 97 or 98. It starts. It starts with 3,000. I borrowed a thousand. I have 2,000 equity. I borrowed a thousand. It's $3,000. Within three months or two months, it had turned into like $7,000. And I'm. And I'm working with a guy in there that's pretty wealthy, and he's struggling with his little. He had a sentence of like two years. And he's saying, how do you stay so positive in here? So I said, I have a plan. I got a plan. I'm going to do this, and I'm going to do this. And I was so excited. And I told him I was investing in the stock market, and I showed him 2,000. He said, wow. He said, I never understood the stock market. He said, if you had more money, would you have made more money? I said, yeah. I said, so what would you have made if you had 200,000. I said, well, I would have made 600,000. And he said, let's do it. And he said, and so he said, how about If I send $100,000 to you and we invest it and that'll help me get through my last period of time? And I said, well, Gary, the thing is, I bought the very volatile stock. If I had 100,000, that's life changing for me. That would be life changing. I said, I probably wouldn't be as risky with that as I would with 2,000. And, you know, I knew that he was rich. And he said to me, I'll make you a deal.
- [62:41]
B
Anyone who knows me knows I'm obsessed with Topo Designs. They're a Colorado brand that makes my favorite backpacks, apparel and accessories from my Emmy winning show. Trafficked. I literally traveled the world with this Topo Rover pack. Wet jungle hikes, scorched desert rides, rugged mountains and stormy ocean crossings. You name it, this thing survived. It's weatherproof and lightweight, which allows it to shrug off the elements and literally everything I threw at it. And it's such a good looking backpack.
- [63:14]
A
Right.
- [63:15]
B
I get compliments about it all the time. Topo has the best color combos in their gear. Topo Designs helps you experience the outdoors and adventure, travel in style and on your own terms. Believe it. I've lived through it. Its versatility, durability, and sustainability is always at the forefront. Head to topodesigns.com to check out their gear and see what they're about. Use code TOPOHIDDEN third for 10% off your order. Some restrictions apply. Topo Designs Classic Mountain Modern. Made for anywhere on your map.
- [63:53]
A
He said, if you do this with me, you just can't turn into being scared. And they're buying really safe stocks. He said, I don't want to make five grand, okay? I'm a gambler and I want to try. And he said, and here's the deal. You do this with me, you teach me how to do it, we'll do it together. And if you, whatever we win, I'm going to give you half of it. And he said, but if you, if you lose everything, I'm going to give you $50,000 after we leave here, before I leave.
- [64:18]
B
What? So it's a win win situation.
- [64:21]
A
For me, it was a win win. There was no downside. He just was so depressed. Yeah, prison. Can something rip your life? Particularly for somebody who's been really successful in the world? You're in there. They're telling you where to go, where to sleep, how to do things right. And he just wanted a friend.
- [64:37]
B
Yeah. A thrill too.
- [64:38]
A
And thrill. And to feel like he was alive again. And so that was so. So after I'd done that seven, he wires like a hundred grand to my sister and I invest it. And that hundred turns into more than 2 million.
- [64:51]
B
Holy moly.
- [64:53]
A
In like less than 6 months. 7 months.
- [64:56]
B
Holy shit.
- [64:57]
A
So. So I'm in prison. But I doesn't mean it. I all I'm trying to. I'm still in prison and I've got a long ways to go. So he only. He sent a hundred. And then I kept leveraging and it turns into I have a million dollars in debt and a million dollars in equity because I kept leveraging up. And then we lost. Then it starts to lose. And I would lose like $400,000 in a day or so. And I told him, look, Gary, I know it's significant for you, it's real money. But I said, this is like life changing money for me. And I said, I'd like to sell and I have to pay the tax, but I can give you back all your money and we'll split it. And he says, great, because he was. Now he was getting close to going home. So we sold. My sister sold. She paid the tax that we owed, she gave him the 100 he gave back, and we split the difference. So at the end of the day, I think I was left with like $300,000, which was significant. Starting with nothing in prison. You know, I'm in prison. That's life changing for me. But as I recall, I pulled 100,000 out in cash to set aside. And I left the other 200,000 to ride with stocks. And those went to zero. So those went to zero. But I still had $100,000 in cash. And that's what pushed me to start writing books more. And so I start writing books more. And that's my journey through that. And by now I'm in my prison for like 12 years. 11 or 12 years. And now I start moving on the next half.
- [66:20]
B
Which is when you met Carol.
- [66:21]
A
Right. And this is a great story because it's through this publishing that these students start researching me on the Internet. And I'd known Carol cause we went to school together, but she was it middle school. Elementary school.
- [66:32]
B
Elementary school.
- [66:33]
A
But we were not friends.
- [66:34]
B
Okay.
- [66:34]
A
I was a very fast crowd and she was a good girl, so.
- [66:37]
B
And you guys were in the same.
- [66:38]
A
We were in the same grade, but not fast. And what happens is when he graduated in 1982. So in 2001, they're coordinating the 20 year reunion for that 1980, classically 1982. And she's the one that's coordinating it. And she receives a message from somebody that we don't know who it was. It was a student someplace that. Is this the same high school where Michael Santos went to school? And she said, yes, why are you asking? And he says, well, he's in prison.
- [67:04]
B
And she remembered who you were?
- [67:05]
A
Oh, yes. Probably not hard to forget because everybody.
- [67:11]
B
Knew in school that you ended up in prison.
- [67:12]
A
I guess I would say so. But we were only, you know, you know, at high school, you're a senior class. Everybody knows everybody. And everybody. Certainly I knew everybody. So I got a letter from her. That was not the kind of letter I wanted to get. It was, I'm a mother of two children, I hate drugs. They're so bad. I always knew you were a bad kid. But, you know, it was like that kind of a letter. And she said, she said, we're doing our 20 year reunion. And I thought maybe you'd want to see some pictures.
- [67:40]
B
So wait a second, because I read something that had some of her quotes about this moment. And I think, maybe, correct me if I'm wrong, but what I remember is that she said something that she found out which prison you were at and she saw a photo of you perhaps in one of your books or something.
- [67:56]
A
I had an Internet page by that time.
- [67:58]
B
Okay, Internet page. And she saw this photo and. And something in her told her that. I think not only did she find it very attractive, but she thought that this was a man that there was that she needed to meet or something, right?
- [68:09]
A
Yes, and I would say that's probably accurate, but the first letter she wrote was mother and drugs.
- [68:15]
B
You're an asshole.
- [68:17]
A
Yeah, kind of. You shouldn't sell drugs.
- [68:19]
B
It could look as a strategy.
- [68:21]
A
And so I remember showing it to somebody in prison with my friends. Look, she seems very angry with me. You know, she's probably. She's probably a Republican. She should be on Fox News, you know. So I showed it to him and I said, well, I'll bet you. I thought, I'll bet you an ice cream I can make her my girlfriend. And that's how it started. Yeah, that's how it started.
- [68:44]
B
Everything has to be a challenge.
- [68:45]
A
Everything's. Well, that's how you have to do in prison. You have to find a way.
- [68:48]
B
I can see that.
- [68:49]
A
So I write to her letter, you're right, I made a lot of really bad decisions when I was 20. I'm 35 now. And, you know, I've done some things in prison. I'm trying to change my life. And, you know, I. And I'd love to have a correspondence. And that starts. I'm. Thank you for sharing these pictures. And that leads her to soften up. And she writes me and we begin. Begin a correspondence. And the correspondence lasts for several months. And then probably five months later, she decides, I'm going to come to visit. It's not romantic yet. I'm just. We're friends and I'm publishing at the time. I'm writing. I think about prison at that time. And she's helping me by typing because I can't do that in prison. So I'd send the handwritten stuff. Wow.
- [69:28]
B
And she would type it out, and.
- [69:29]
A
She would type, and she's getting to know my work. And then we visited and we fell in love in a prison visiting room. And that's how we got married.
- [69:36]
B
That's incredible. And you got married how soon after that?
- [69:40]
A
So we got married on June 24, 2003. And so the high school was at 2002. So about a year, I'd say a court trip through mail. And then she moved to New Jersey.
- [69:53]
B
I got married and. You got married when? June.
- [69:55]
A
June 24, 2003.
- [69:57]
B
I got married in June 24, 2006.
- [70:00]
A
Oh, yeah, sure. Anniversary.
- [70:01]
B
Years and a half a year.
- [70:02]
A
Yeah. So that leads to. And of course, when she comes into my life, she's going to get me out of prison. That's her mindset. I said, you're not going to get me out of prison. I'm not getting out of prison. This is. George Bush now is in the White House. And I said, there's. It's very tough. But I said, I'm going to build my life around this and we're going to find a way. And I had some money then. This is when I saw my money from the stock market. So I'm supporting her, and so she's helping me, and we have to figure out something for her to do. So she came up with the idea of becoming a nurse because she said her mom was a nurse and said I could work anywhere if I'm a nurse, and that's that. So I said, great. Let's use all the money I earned for you to become a nurse.
- [70:39]
B
Oh, that's so great. You're paying for education. That's amazing. Yeah.
- [70:42]
A
And she paid for me because she gave me this life. And then I really start to grow in these. Because now it's like, now I go to a camp, and when I'm in a camp, I start to change, start building my career.
- [70:55]
B
Can I ask you something which may sound a little strange? That's not strange. But there's a lot of inmates who have. Who start new relationships with women outside of prison. You know, sometimes before. You know, years before they even meet them, ever meet them in person. What does this mean for people who are in prison, like yourself, to be able to have a relationship with a new woman? And what is it that you think? I mean, in Carol's case, I think it was very obvious. You're an amazing human being, and I think she saw that and fell in love. But why do you think so many women fall in love with men in prison?
- [71:23]
A
Well, I always had women in prison. It was always a challenge. So I never thought Carol would go the distance when I started. So it was always important for me to find women in prison and in.
- [71:38]
B
Prison, meaning outside of prison or they.
- [71:40]
A
Were out and I was in.
- [71:41]
B
Because they're also inmates who have relationships with prison. Female staff. Right.
- [71:47]
A
Oh, yeah, that's. But that's a crime.
- [71:49]
B
Is it a crime? I didn't know.
- [71:50]
A
Yeah.
- [71:50]
B
There was that famous case in Alabama where the staff. Prison staff woman helped the guy escape.
- [71:56]
A
The Danna Moore. There's a lot of that in the New York, Florida. There's a lot of those things happening. Happens a lot. Yes.
- [72:01]
B
So. But that's not what I'm asking. So that happens, I'm sure that happening at your prison.
- [72:04]
A
I'm still a human being. Men and women. Wait, wait.
- [72:07]
B
Was that happening at your prison as well?
- [72:08]
A
Of course it happens. Anytime you put.
- [72:10]
B
With female staff.
- [72:10]
A
I'm saying anytime you put men and women together, there's that possibility of chemistry. Okay. And a prisoner can give enormous attention to a woman that she doesn't get a lot of times. So that artificial environment, if she's got sadness or something in her life, she's vulnerable to somebody who was. Oh, if I were you were my girl, I would never do that to you. Right.
- [72:33]
B
And so really it's interesting because it's so much. I've done a lot of work on. On scam. Romance scams.
- [72:40]
A
Yeah.
- [72:41]
B
It's very similar to scammers, I would imagine. So spend a lot of time, like they have whole hours of the day, the whole day.
- [72:46]
A
But in prison, it's even more because, I mean, I am with a staff member more than sometimes her husband is with her because I'm working With her for seven hours a day. We're this close and you ask questions and, you know, you talk. And then eventually there's. If she's not vigilant, it can become probably more personal than it's supposed to be.
- [73:04]
B
Right.
- [73:05]
A
And that does happen. I never had a relationship with a staff member like that.
- [73:09]
B
I remember because it was too.
- [73:10]
A
Too dangerous.
- [73:11]
B
Right? It's dangerous, but you get caught. Helpful and it's very beneficial for the people. And it can be, I guess, because what I heard, and you're telling me that it's illegal, I actually didn't know, but it makes sense. I remember interviewing a guy here, a gang.
- [73:23]
A
It's illegal for the woman, for the guard, of course.
- [73:26]
B
Yeah. Interviewing a gang member here in la. And he was on me. He spent time in prison as well, and he was telling me that the first thing you want to do when you get in prison is try to figure out which woman you're going to make fall in love for you, because then she can start bringing in contraband. I mean, I don't think it happens all the time, obviously, but that's what he's talking.
- [73:41]
A
There's a story of a journalist. The book is called the Man. And I was in prison with a guy and he was serving life. And, you know, I had girls, women. I mean, I was young, so they were young, contemporary. I'd typically meet them through my school because I have to call the school and I get to library, and that's how I would meet women from school, College students.
- [74:03]
B
While you were in prison?
- [74:04]
A
While I was in prison. And I remember one guy who was serving a life sentence, Gene Fisher is his name. He told me about a book where there was an Italian race car driver who got involved in some crime and a journalist came to see him and they fell in love and he got out. I just remember saying, wow, get married in prison. What an amazing thing that would be. And then, yeah, that became a very kind of a. I wouldn't say it became a goal of mine, but it was always important to have women because it's what make a man feel alive.
- [74:36]
B
So I love what you said. I'd never thought about that. It's because an inmate, a person in prison, has so much time on their hands to put that attention on women.
- [74:45]
A
And I would not even say he's doing something disingenuous or trying to do a scam. He's just lonely. Yeah, of course, maybe he's not lonely, but he doesn't want to be alone. Right. Maybe that's A better way of saying it. He just wants to feel like a man. You know, the story of Pinocchio. A lot of people think of Pinocchio, and they only think of the story. If he lies, his nose grows. But there was another theme on it, that he was a wooden puppet and he just wanted to be a boy. I just wanted to be a man. That's all I wanted was to be a man. And a man sometimes is defined by having a woman, or at least that's how he's defining it. I want to take care of a woman. I want to be with him. I want a woman to fall in love with me. And that was so important all through prison, right?
- [75:27]
B
It's taking back a little bit of the humanity, right?
- [75:29]
A
It's anything they say I can't do, I needed to find a way to do. And that got me through all the way through the journey. It was whether it was fitness or writing or getting a college degree or becoming an author or finding a girlfriend or making money. All of these things to me were ways of saying, prison's not going to define me. I'll find a way. And I'm not going to be defined. You know, it was always a goal. It says, I'm going to walk out of prison, be able to put on a suit and tie, and nobody will know I served a day in prison unless I told them. And that was always a goal. I don't want to be. I don't want to come out. And, you know, people make different choices for me. I didn't want to have tattoos on my neck, and I don't have any tattoos. And I wanted to learn how to communicate and wanted to learn how to business and everything. I just didn't want this to be the defining moment of my life. And. And so that. That drove me all the way through prison.
- [76:27]
B
And how. Tell me then how you started the process of actually getting out of prison, because you were. So I sentenced for 45, and you ended up only doing 27.
- [76:36]
A
Well, I did 29,500 days. 26 years.
- [76:39]
B
26.
- [76:40]
A
But I didn't get out a day early. So the sentencing law at that time was if you. They call it good time, you get credit for good behavior, but it's really not accurate. It's more likely to. More accurate would be, say, the avoidance of bad time. You don't get time taken because everybody got the credit unless. But you could lose it by getting a disciplinary fraction. So I never had a disciplinary infraction. I told you that that was an interesting story earlier about how I work with the Bureau of Prisons. Now there's. When I went to camps, I start to really start building my path. And I'm writing now books, and they're being used, but they're also being written about in the media. So the New York Times had done a review of a book I wrote called Inside Life Behind Bars in America. And I was already in Colorado in a camp.
- [77:28]
B
This was the most popular book you wrote.
- [77:30]
A
Right. It was published by St. Martin's Press, so it had the most distribution. It was not just for a university audience. After I wrote those two books for academia and then you started, then I got an agent and I wrote this book. And this is still. This is a time when people still read books because it's before the early Internet's going and this book comes out. And I'm in a camp in Colorado, and they said, you can't be an author here. This is a supermax prison, and we don't want anybody writing about it. So they shipped me to Lompoc in here in Santa Barbara. And I remember when I got processed in, the captain, who's the head of security, this person's name is Andy Matavusian, he comes to see me and he said, I don't want you writing books from my prison. He said, if you write a book here, I'm going to lock you in the hole and I'll never let you out until you finish your sentence.
- [78:14]
B
Okay, it's back to this idea that you were saying, where prisons shouldn't be just a place to hold people. It should be places. It should be about the results.
- [78:22]
A
I'm very optimistic that it's getting better. But at that time, it's very much, we don't care about your life after prison. We only care about security of the institutions and serving your sentence.
- [78:31]
B
Which is why recidivism is so high.
- [78:33]
A
It's just intergenerational cycles, and it typically afflicts the people of color and the poor and so on more. But I am still had probably at that time, seven years to go or eight years to go seven years ago, I think. And Carol was in getting her nursing degree. So she's saying, if he told you that, please just don't publish anything until at least I graduate, because I don't want you getting transferred. She'd already moved from Oregon.
- [78:55]
B
Yeah.
- [78:56]
A
To New Jersey, to Colorado. And now I'm in California. And so I said, okay. So I waited for her to graduate. And then I wrote another book. And when I did that he locked me in the hole, and that was fine. I didn't see him again until I got out. But I kept writing books because for me, this was going to be my career and vocation, and it had a huge role in my life when I got out. So I knew I was going to get out in 26 years. But I just kept sowing these seeds that I believe would help me build a bigger advocacy platform. And I finished my sentence on August. Well, I transitioned from prison to a Halfway House on August 13, 2012. And when I got out, because I had done all that work in prison, I had a lot of opportunities that most people don't have. I was working with Stanford and Berkeley and a lot of schools in the Bay Area, and I would go and speak at the school. So one person was San Francisco State University. And after I gave a presentation to the Criminal Justice Division, they asked if I wanted a job. And I said, what do you want me to do? They said, we want you to be a professor here. Is that all somebody has to do is go through prison for 25 years to be a professor?
- [80:09]
B
No, I'm a professor.
- [80:10]
A
And they said, no, but we read your books. I read your books when I was in grad school. And so I've known about you for 10 years. And so now that you're here, we think it'd be a great addition to the faculty.
- [80:20]
B
Yeah, it's an incredible story. It's the, you know, it's the exact opposite of the vast majority of people that leave prison.
- [80:24]
A
And I left prison strong.
- [80:26]
B
Right.
- [80:26]
A
I had money in the bank, I had a wife, I had job opportunities.
- [80:30]
B
Yeah, in many ways, because you made that for yourself.
- [80:34]
A
And that's what I try to teach people how to do. So because it's authentic and it's real and it's time stamped, and everybody could see it, I can show the relationship between the decisions you make today and the life that opens for you tomorrow. And so, because I was a professor, now I have more credibility to write on advocacy. And I wrote this journal article for the UC Hastings Law Review called Incentivizing Excellence. And I was writing that you should be more like America in prison. The harder you work, the more opportunities open for you instead of just waiting for calendar pages to turn. And it was through that process that I start speaking a lot in universities, but also in conferences. And I was speaking at a judicial conference, a big one. There's a thousand people there, all judges and U.S. attorneys and prison officials. And I'm giving this presentation. And afterwards I gave this speech. When I give this speech, a lot of times people would say, well, not everybody in prison can do what you do. And I'd say, you see, you say that to me now, and I'm in a suit and this is an audience. When I came in, remember your colleagues said, I should be in prison for 300 years. So the reality is anybody can do it, but your system obliterates hope and it tells people they can't do anything. And that's what you get. If you want a different result, we gotta have a different system. And that's what I'm asking you to help me. And so after the speech, some guy comes in a blue suit and he shakes my hand, said, do you remember me? I said, of course I remember. You're Andy Matavus. And you locked me in the hole in Lombok. No way. And he says, well, I'm a captain. I'm now a warden.
- [82:03]
B
And he was a CO then he was a captain.
- [82:05]
A
He was head of security.
- [82:06]
B
Okay.
- [82:06]
A
Now he's a warden. Wow. And he said, I really like what you're doing and I'd like you to come to my prison and speak. I said, I'm happy to come to your prison and speak. That has a, you know, two hour window.
- [82:16]
B
Yeah.
- [82:16]
A
So let's build a program and change the system. Have courage, do something. And he said, okay, let's. Let's try it. And that's what started me working. And since then he's grown and became warden there. And then he was warden in Florence at the adx, the supermax. And then now he's one of six regional directors and he's brought me to every prison and that's what really helped me develop my career. Wow. Working in prison.
- [82:39]
B
Yeah. I mean, so much of what you say about what prisons should be like versus what they are makes sense. You know, recidivism is so high. People know that the moment you enter prison is how you learn how to become a criminal. If you weren't one before. You know, there's something very broken about the prison system in this country. And whenever you talk about prison reform or giving more. Giving education to prisoners, or giving more books or giving whatever it is, there's so much opposition to it. And I think the idea is, why would you give.
- [83:11]
A
Why would you give books or education to somebody for free when people outside have to pay for it?
- [83:16]
B
Right. And also.
- [83:17]
A
Or why would you give them. Give a reward to somebody for doing what they're supposed to do?
- [83:21]
B
Or why treat, well, people who don't deserve to be treated. Well, I think there's this, you know, and increasingly so this idea that it's us versus them, it's, you know, bad people versus good people. And so in prison, it's housing all the bad people and they should have nothing good and they should suffer for the rest of their lives.
- [83:41]
A
So it's similar to Socrates's era when Socrates said. When they said, if you're from one class, you shouldn't teach another class because we need slaves, okay? And I think that is the evolution of society. And it's this evolution that would say you have to get people to think differently, just like Socrates did with the allegory of the cave. You've got to get people to see the world differently. And that's my role, okay, is to try and have people see it differently. So when somebody comes up with that question, I said, well, let's just talk about what the result that you want. You know, what you want is a society that's safe and that is opportunities for all that prisons are not delivering you, that they're perpetuating failure. The longer you expose people to corrections, the less likely they are to function outside. They can't get a job than this cycle of failure. And it's intergenerational. And so I think that people. I'm very optimistic. I've always been optimistic. But I really believe that this is a great time for us to really accelerate this change. And I'm very grateful to you for allowing me to share the story with your audience.
- [84:43]
B
I mean, it resonates to so much with the work that I do, too, and the reporting that I've done and the sort of people that I've met.
- [84:49]
A
So you get people to see something different. You get people to see something differently, and then they start to question, maybe that makes sense. And that's sometimes hard. That takes time. But I have a different perspective of time because I did so much time in prison. So I know that the change is going to be slow, but that's why I have to get scale. So I create programs now where I get scale that thousands of people going through it. And my goal is to get to 10,000 people. We have 2,000 people enrolled in my program now that are documenting their story and.
- [85:19]
B
And explain exactly what your program does.
- [85:22]
A
My life is successful because I took a very intentional, deliberate adjustment strategy. If you don't take this intentional, deliberate adjustment strategy, it's always going to be the worst thing that happened to you. That's going to define your life. So I Said, I'm going to build a platform. And this platform is I want you to tell me your biography. Who are you? Don't let just the crime define you. What have you learned from it? What have you done to make amends? What are you doing to identify or reconcile with victims? In what way are you striving to be a good citizen? Write your biography. Two, Journal. When you're going through prison, don't wait for the government to change your life. Document the self directed ways that you're working to atone or to make amends or be a good citizen. Right. Define it every day. Three, the government's not going to give you education. Expect that. Don't complain about it. Expect that. But you could always read and if you read intentionally, you could always write a book report. Why did you read the book? What did you learn from reading the book? And how is the book going to help you become a better person? Document that and you're going to develop an asset that you could use to advocate for yourself. And four, write your release plan. So be intentional. Anticipate the job you're going to have. What can you do to position yourself and advance it?
- [86:35]
B
So be ready for when you leave prison.
- [86:36]
A
Be ready. I set a goal when I was very early in my sentence that I'm going to have enough money in the bank that when I get out I'll have enough money to last a year and buy everything I need and last a year. And that means I have more liberty because if I have financial resource, I don't have to go and take the first job, which is almost like another prison. If it's a bad job or you.
- [86:55]
B
Don'T have to go back into a life of crime, which is what happens to a lot of people, a lot.
- [86:58]
A
Of people, because they don't see. All right, so if you're intentional, you can architect a strategy. And so I try to teach people to architect the strategy. So I built a platform. It's on prison professors dot org. That's a website.
- [87:09]
B
Yeah, Prison professors dot org and then.
- [87:12]
A
I assign points to them. So the harder you work, the more points you're going to earn. So I would say some of the skills that are most valuable for me are to learn how to turn words into sentences and sentences into paragraphs and paragraphs into persuasive arguments. And if you could do that, you could talk your way into a job, you could talk your way into whatever it is you want to do. But if you don't do that, then you've got a Problem. So this is a self directed path. So if somebody writes 300 words or less, they get one point on these components. If they write more than 300 words, they get two points and I get to measure it. So I build a leaderboard. Now we have like 19 this morning. I thought I looked this morning. I think it was 1,960 people.
- [87:56]
B
Wow. So it's sort of a competition, like an internal competition.
- [87:58]
A
And I'm getting them to compete.
- [87:59]
B
That's amazing.
- [88:00]
A
So say you're competing. If you're in Maine, you're competing against somebody in Miami, against somebody in Seattle. I said, who's the hardest working person?
- [88:05]
B
That's incredible. What do they. Is there an actual prize at the end or they're just.
- [88:08]
A
Well, the prize is hopefully you'll be successful. Yeah, okay. But there's more to it than that. Then I said, those are individual points again. But let's say Bob gets Steve involved, Steve gets points. But for every point that Steve gets, Bob also gets those points and they go into his tribe at points. So he's building a circle of influence and trying to change the culture of confinement instead of gangs. Show them who's building a big tribe of people who want to be good citizens. And this is a great way for you to bring value to the world. And third, the other kind of points is 30 days. Who's leading in the last 30 days? Because if somebody's been in for eight years, it's really hard for somebody to come in to get ahead on the leaderboard. So I wanted to measure 30 days too. So there's three ways that people can rise on the points. Now when I work with the agency, I try to tell the warden, this is a filter for you. Who is worthy of a lower, higher level of liberty, who is worthy of getting out, who is working hard. This is a way to earn freedom. And I said, and it's consistent with America, because America, the harder you work, the more successful you become. So I have 2,000 people. I want to get to 10,000 people, and I'll get there within the next six or seven months by revisiting prisons. And I make the whole presentation. I said, I make three promises. I'm never going to lie to you. I'm never going to ask you to do something I didn't do. And I'll never ask you to pay a penny. Everything's free. So I said, I can fund everything and then I get other people to help me, but we'll fund it. So the government, I don't want to Depend on the government. I'll give it away for free. And then I said, now I'm going to advocate for you outside, but I can't advocate for you if you're not advocating for yourself. So build your resume just like anything else. I said, be the CEO of your life. And that's what I try to teach people how to do. Be the CEO of their life. Don't let the system define you. Be better.
- [89:50]
B
Yeah, it's incredible. It's really is.
- [89:52]
A
But If I get 10,000 people, then I can go to governments and I could say, well compare the 10,000 people here against anybody else. Because you can compare high security to high security. If you got 50 people here who are going through the program, compare against 50 people who are, who has fewer disciplinary infractions and it's who's more. Who has mentors outside, who has an ability you can collect testimonials on there as well. And I said, who's working hard? So these are the people that are worthy of, of, of a higher level of liberty, right? Yeah.
- [90:21]
B
It's everything we hope our government would be doing. Right. But they're not.
- [90:24]
A
So it's a government. I don't believe the government should solve problems. We should. We're citizens.
- [90:29]
B
Who should be solving problems if not the government?
- [90:31]
A
I don't, I think I disagree with you. I'll tell you, Ronald Reagan said something, he used to say nine words that nobody ever wants to hear. I'm with the government and I'm here to help because the government, the government is not big government.
- [90:44]
B
They're not good at solving problems. But that is their job. You know, that's what we pay them for. That's what we pay our taxes.
- [90:49]
A
You know, who's good at solving problems like citizens. Like I did it.
- [90:53]
B
Yeah.
- [90:53]
A
So I can build credibility.
- [90:54]
B
That's the beauty of America in many ways.
- [90:56]
A
Right. Then there's another component I said is employers. Like I can get employers to believe if I can get the guy to build a record. So I want to create a bridge that said, if you've earned a lot of points, Home Depot will hire you because you're in this system. So it's like this, it's a combination. I've got to get the government involved because they've got to give me access to the prisons. I've got to get employers involved because I want to give jobs to people. And then I have to get other people who have a like minded heart that says I want to be a part of this ministry, you know, to try and change people's lives because I want to change. The cycle of intergenerational cycles was a failure.
- [91:33]
B
It's. It's truly remarkable. Incredible. I remember when we interviewed Justin Paperni who was, you were his mentor when he was in prison and he was telling us how you were the first he got him to prison and the first thing that he was obsessed with it was making sure he was getting all the muscles in the world becoming really strong and he would spend hours exercising. And you told him he's going to.
- [91:55]
A
Pay you for that.
- [91:55]
B
Exactly. He's going to pay you for how many push ups you can do. Right. And you were the first person who showed him a way and the way was through education.
- [92:05]
A
Justin was like many people who come to prison they're scared of what's going to happen in the future. The problem is that they don't have a path that what can I do to sow seeds for the future? So that's the problem.
- [92:13]
B
Yeah.
- [92:14]
A
Create and wait till you teach them.
- [92:16]
B
And I love that it's not just about educating yourself because I think that's a lot of you know we're all selfish, selfish human beings and it's all about ourselves. But you went further than that and.
- [92:26]
A
It'S be the change we want to.
- [92:27]
B
See, see and impact people around you. Make sure that you're bringing people along.
- [92:32]
A
I'm very journey I'm very glad that I get to do this. Yeah. Yeah. I'm very some people, it's not for everybody. Right. I mean I think yours role might be that way as well. You know. Why do you want to spend time with people who are on their right on the edge? My mission is to say I go to prisons and I said these are my brothers and sisters and if you were a big brother and you did well you'd want to help your others. And I said and I can't, I get to do this now. So I'm in a position that I get to do it and it brings meaning to my life. So I'm very grateful.
- [93:01]
B
Yeah. It's incredible what you've accomplished and the impact that you have in people's lives is really remarkable. So I'm a big admirer of your work.
- [93:11]
A
I appreciate you and I appreciate your for introducing me to your audience. And if they're interested in learning more about the work and the people I Hope they'll visit charisminvestors.org because we publish every day and we try and help more people understand what can we do to improve outcomes, outcomes of America's what I call the great social injustice of our time.
- [93:28]
B
Michael, thank you so much for coming on the Hidden Third. It was my pleasure.
- [93:31]
A
Thank you very much. I appreciate it.
- [93:33]
B
Thank you.
- [93:44]
A
When I was there, you had to have a knife. One of you's got to take turns carrying it up your rectum.
- [93:49]
B
Wait, it's up your butt.
- [93:50]
A
That's the prison wallet. You never leave home alone.
- [93:52]
B
You have something protected around it, I'm assuming.
- [93:54]
A
Yeah, or else you'd be bleeding out your coolo.
- [93:56]
B
I'm Ariana Van Zeller, and after reporting on black markets for my Emmy winning National Geographic show, trafficked, I'm launching a podcast. You're getting emotional on me. Intimate conversations with those operating in the shadows. The Hidden Third is out now with new episodes every Wednesday. Subscribe@YouTube.com marianavanzeller Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.