He Robbed a Casino With a Blow‑Up Doll and a Fake AK‑47

Summary

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The Hidden Third – He Robbed a Casino With a Blow-Up Doll and a Fake AK-47

Host: Mariana van Zeller
Guest: Adnan Alisich
Air Date: August 5, 2026

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Episode Overview

Emmy and Peabody Award-winning journalist Mariana van Zeller sits down with Adnan Alisich to unpack the astonishing true story of a meticulously planned casino heist involving homemade tunnels, a blow-up doll, fake AK-47s, and a pepper-spray ambush. Adnan reflects candidly on his harrowing childhood during the Bosnian war, his journey as a refugee in the US, descent into gambling addiction, and the eventual execution of a high-stakes crime inspired partly by Hollywood and mostly by desperation. The episode explores themes of trauma, addiction, the psychology of hustlers, and the profound impact of underground economies—casting light on the hidden market of gambling and its destructive reach.

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1. Adnan’s Early Life in War-Torn Bosnia (00:55–19:29)

• Background: Adnan was born and raised in Bosnia, witnessing the horrors of ethnic cleansing during his formative years.
• Survival Tactics: He describes impersonating a Serb child at checkpoints to avoid being taken away—“I would just have the made up lies, give him the Serb name, all that stuff that they need.” (02:24)
• Childhood Trauma: Adnan recounts witnessing a massacre, including the execution of a young boy:

  “One of the soldiers, seen him and started running towards him. Within a couple of seconds, he grabbed him, took him back over there, took out the gun and blew out his head.” (11:38)

• Entrepreneurial Instincts: He became a young black-market trader, sneaking cigarettes between cities using cargo trains (05:03–07:24).
• Survivor’s Guilt: “For the first time, I remembered the way those suicide bombers feel…there’s nothing you can do. You’re so helpless.” (15:21)

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2. Starting Over in America: Promise and Struggle (19:29–23:57)

• Refugee Move to Phoenix: Adnan arrives in Phoenix, Arizona at 17 with his family. None spoke English, both parents worked low-wage jobs.
• Work Ethic: Started as a hotel janitor, later saved enough for a car dealership license—"I worked like this for about two years, managed to save up some money, and always liked working with cars." (21:08)
• Building a Business: Began buying junked cars, repairing and flipping them, eventually expanding to a full lot, body shop, and restaurant—“Within three months, I had this whole lot filled up.” (44:34)

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3. The Descent: Gambling Addiction and Its Costs (24:00–34:14)

• First Visit to Casino: Curiosity led to initial losses, then the addictive “need to win it back”—"And that's how everything started." (25:56)
• Addiction Escalates: Gambling becomes a daily compulsion, often for 16+ hours: "I would sell a car and I would donate everything to the casino." (30:59)
• Concealment: Outward success masked desperate finances and escalating debts—“Thousands of wars waging inside of you.” (29:42)
• Advice to Others: “Gambling is a silent addiction…you have to admit it to yourself.” (28:25)
• Consequences: Lost all business equities, resorted to selling junked cars for cash to gamble (38:59).
• Recovery, Relapse: Temporary relief when forced to stop, but a return to gambling erased any recovery—"If you go even one time, it's basically like you've never left." (47:05)

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4. The Casino Heist: Planning “Ocean’s Eleven” for Real (51:03–120:00)

Motivation and Emergence of the Plan (51:03–65:25)

• Breaking Point: Thrown out of the casino during a rare winning streak, Adnan feels targeted possibly for “winning too much” (61:08–62:07).
• Total Losses: Adnan estimates over $800,000 lost to casinos. (64:10)

Meticulous Planning and Recruitment (65:28–103:54)

• Tunnel Discovery: Serendipitously finds a storm tunnel a mile from the casino—“A small car could drive through it.” (67:51)
• Hollywood Inspiration: The scheme involved digging an entrance from a city storm tunnel into the casino bathroom, then using an ATV to escape underground (72:14).
• Daylight Armored Car Hit: When the tunnel plan proves impossible (“digging blind”), the focus shifts to robbing armored cash deliveries outside the casino (86:10).
• Unconventional Arsenal: Decisive shift to non-lethal force:

  “I’m gonna carry the pepper spray. I’m gonna spray him, and that’s it... fake AK47, you know, so they think that we have real weapons.” (92:15)

Execution, Chaos, and Catastrophe (108:35–124:55)

• The Day of the Heist (110:00):
  • Team preps with disguises, blow-up doll for misdirection, custom lightweight manhole covers, smoke grenades, and a van with a floor hatch.
  • Unplanned delays, sweltering anxiety in the van for hours before the armored truck arrives.
  • The assault:

    “I sprayed right away. Sprayed right away. And this was the most critical point. Both the guards just run away.” (114:22)

• Escape Foiled:
  • When the team tries to escape via the fake manhole, they discover it’s jammed—

    “I jump up. I can't open the manhole. What do you mean you can't open them?” (120:00)

  • Plan B fails, leading to a dangerous car chase as police converge—

    “During the next 30 minutes, I just gave them a wild ride all over the city of Scottsdale.” (123:12)

  • Both Adnan and Flecka eventually try to escape on foot—Adnan describes eluding hundreds of officers by blending in with bystanders and even talking to a TV reporter at the police barricade. (136:14)

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5. Aftermath: Arrest, Prison, and Reflection (142:38–156:30)

• Capture: Caught by FBI undercover agents, surrounded by guns. “At that moment, this is it. I just put the car in park, stepped out, and that’s when I got arrested.” (144:01)
• Sentencing: Receives a 17.5-year sentence, serving 15.5 years after issues with prison fights.
• Code of Silence: Refuses to divulge the name of the inside man, recognizing the FBI’s deep suspicion:

  “They never found the inside guy.” (147:08)

• Transformation in Prison: Becomes religiously observant, attributing addiction and downfall to ignoring religious prohibitions:

  “I started reading Quran and many times I kept rereading passages about when Allah directly told us, there’s no gambling.” (150:03)

• Reintegration: Chooses deportation to Bosnia over life as a US felon, establishes a dispatch company in Arizona (run remotely), and gets married.

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6. Reflections on Gambling and Redemption (154:41–156:30)

• Advocacy: Now warning others about gambling addiction, drawing from his own downfall—

  “There are only two ways: either reach the very bottom like me, or you have to admit it to yourself that you have a problem, you need help and seek it from those closest to you.” (155:09)

• Simple Solution:

  “They all are looking for a strategy to beat the house. And after going through all of this, I figured it out: don’t gamble.” (156:19)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “I witnessed a massacre… they just killed 20 people, smoking, you know, nothing, talking.” (10:00–12:43) Adnan recounts war trauma in Bosnia.
• “Gambling is a silent addiction, even though you don’t want to admit it to yourself.” (26:45)
• “You go even one time, it’s basically like you’ve never left.” (47:05)
• “If you come back here again, you’re gonna be arrested for trespassing. Six months later, I was back… to rob them.” (60:59)
• “After going through all of this, I figured it out. Don’t gamble.” (156:27)
• Most surreal moment: Adnan, pursued by helicopters and 300+ officers, escapes a police dragnet by blending into a crowd and giving a nonchalant answer to a TV reporter. (136:14)

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Key Timestamps by Segment

| Time | Topic | |--------------|--------------------------------------------------------| | 00:55–19:29 | Childhood in Bosnia, survival, trauma | | 19:30–23:57 | Arriving in US, building a business | | 24:00–34:14 | Gambling addiction, impact on life and business | | 51:03–65:25 | Motivation for the heist, losses, expulsion from casino| | 65:28–103:54 | Planning the theft: tunnel, crew, inside man | | 108:35–124:55| Execution day: from armored truck to failed tunnel | | 124:55–142:38| Manhunt, escape, eventual FBI arrest | | 142:38–156:30| Prison, reflection, advocacy, present day |

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Episode Takeaways

• The episode illuminates not only a spectacular and improbable heist but also dives deep into the psyche of trauma, addiction, and the ripple effects of underground economies like gambling.
• Adnan’s story is a cautionary tale about the seductive—and ultimately ruinous—nature of compulsive gambling, and the extreme measures to which it can drive those who fall under its spell.
• In the end, his hard-won wisdom is disarmingly direct: the only way to “win” against the house, is not to play.

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Transcript

[A]

Right away I heard sirens, Sirens everywhere. From the left, from the right, everywhere. And I'm like, you know, this is it. I already expected this. They're going to be here in the next couple of minutes, but we got it. I know, like 90%. We are done. This is it. We got him. We're going to escape. That's it. We got him.

[B]

Okay. I'm really excited about this one. This is the inside story of one of the wildest heights I've ever heard about. And I've done stories on heists, a fake AK47, a blow up doll, a motorized skateboard. This is all part of a plan to rob a casino. And it's really, when I was reading your story, really sounded a lot like an Ocean's Eleven plot. So, Adnan Alisich, I pronounce it well. So, Adnan Alisich, welcome to the Hidden Third. Okay, so you grew up in Bosnia, right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And tell me about that. And it was during the war.

[A]

Yes, I was basically, I was growing up in Bosnia during the. I was like, when the war started, I was about 11, 12 years old. And as most of the people know, what was happening during that time, the world hasn't seen since the Hitler time, you know, and especially me as a kid, you know, I was. What happened in my city, city of Banja Luka, it was actually considered the biggest prison in the world because nobody could get in or get out.

[B]

So it was a siege around.

[A]

It was, it, it wasn't a siege. It was because it was a Serb occupied, basically controlled city. It wasn't like Sarajevo where, you know, it was a siege, but it was, it was Serb controlled city. So in the beginning stages of the war, basically all the Muslims were either, you know, kicked out, killed, or just, you know, taken to concentration camps. And in my case, what happened? There were checkpoints, especially in the beginning stages of the war, checkpoints. And if you go outside, you know, you get stabbed by the police or military, they check your id. If you're Serb, they let you go. If you're Muslim, they basically just pull you over, take you to the station and you disappear. And what happened with me and my parents, my parents were basically, we were hiding in the house. But me as a kid, when I would go over there, I would get stopped by the police at the checkpoint and I would just tell them, you know, I would just have the made up lice, give him the serpent name, all that stuff that they need. You know, mother's name, father's name, address, all fake. And they Would obviously all fake. And as a kid, I wasn't obligated to carry an id, so they would just let me go, you know, and that's basically how we were surviving. I would go to the city, go to the market, you know, buy stuff, buy something cheap, sell it, make, you know, make some money, buy food, take it back home. And that's basically how we survive.

[B]

So you weren't going to school or anything? You were like 10 in the beginning?

[A]

In the beginning I was going to school and after that, basically quit and I was working at the market.

[B]

Because you needed to?

[A]

Yeah. Yes.

[B]

So it was ethnic cleansing, essentially, was what was happening.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Did you know anyone who died during the war? Anyone close to you?

[A]

Yeah, a lot of. A lot of my family from my mother's side, because my mother's family was from city of PR in my city. My city. Basically, my family, they left right before because a lot of those people they knew in the beginning, some of those especially more influential people who knew what was happening, they left. They basically, they managed to escape in the beginning stages of the war, but after that they closed everything. And especially in my city, nobody could. If you're not. Basically, if you're not served, it would be very, very hard to get in, especially except if you had a lot of money and obviously a lot of connections. So you can actually bribe somebody, you know? Yeah.

[B]

And so what happened to them to your mother's family? Killed.

[A]

They got killed. That's it. Some of them. Some of them, they were fortunate enough to go, to go outside, also escape. And some of them are in Sweden, Denmark, Germany right now, but majority of them basically got killed.

[B]

What was the worst thing you saw during the war?

[A]

I remember a little kid got killed by soldiers.

[B]

And you saw it?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Is it somebody you knew or somebody never seen it?

[A]

Like, it was like a small village. And I remember I was. I was. What I would be doing is in my city. My city. I told you I was buying and selling stuff. And what happened is my mother city, Priedor, which is about. About 40, 50 kilometers away, it's a smaller city. And over there I found out that stuff that I'm selling in my city are like three times as much. I remember I was selling cigarettes and I'm like, you know, for example, you buy a pack of cigarettes, is selling, let's say, $3 in my city, and over there I could sell it for about 10. And I'm like, you know what? All I have to do is just figure out a way to transport it from here to there, about 50 kilometers, you know, I'm gonna make much more money, you know. And I remember I, you know, first I went over there. It would be a risky for me, you know, if somebody catches me with cigarettes, you know, especially soldiers, you know, they're just gonna steal, in the best case, just steal it from me, you know, from a little kid, you know, what are you doing with the cigarettes? You know, and that's. That was a high commodity during that time. I remember the guy, the guy was telling me he sold a cow, cow for a pack of cigarettes. Especially in Bosnia, they're crazy about cigarettes, right? You know. You know, so I went over there and a couple of times how I managed to do this is because the line, especially, you know, during this, like middle of the war, it wasn't. Nobody could go between those two cities except soldiers. And there was a train. I remember I figured out a way, like nine o' clock every night, the train with, I guess with the supplies, with military food and whatever they would take be taken to my city and then another city, Sanski most, with the supplies, weapons, food, whatever they were taking. And how I managed to go over there, I would just, you know, wait. I would wait away from the station. So nobody was. Obviously, there's no way I'm gonna get on the train, right? And you know, those old trains, they go slowly. They need some time to. To, you know, to catch up speed.

[B]

So, like cargo trains, were they like cargo?

[A]

Yeah, like. Like a box. Box, you know? Yeah, like that.

[B]

Cargo, Yeah.

[A]

I remember what I would do before they would even leave, I would go to the other side of the train and open up the, you know, last box. Box. Box, yeah.

[B]

With the cargo. Yeah.

[A]

Yes. Open it up and then move all the way around and go maybe 3, 400 meters away and wait over there until it starts, you know, rolling up. So as it goes, I would just run, put my bag inside, jump inside and catch my, you know, ride like 50, 60 kilometers away to that other

[B]

city where you were trying to sell cigarettes.

[A]

And then I would go to my, to my family's house. Nobody was there. I mean, obviously they, they killed or kicked out everybody. And I would just spend the night over there. And in the morning I would go to the markets. Celebrity right away, I mean, and I was like, you know, that was like my first, you know, entrepreneur, like vaccine, you know, how much money I could make, you know, during that time and during this time, one of those times, this is when I've seen that, you know, on my way Back I jumped. I did hitch the ride the same way you jumped on the train. Yes. And what I've seen is a lot of soldiers. And I'm thinking, you know, first thing that came to my mind was, you know, what, Maybe they've seen me.

[B]

And they're trying to catch you. They've seen you jump the train.

[A]

Yeah, for the first time. Because every single time they. They went straight through. And, you know, I got scared, I jumped out. And what I've seen, those soldiers started, you know, disembarking the train, like maybe 50, 60 soldiers. And I'm like, you know, for the first time. You know, this never happened before. Yeah. And going like there's like a way through the forest. And I'm like, you know, like, not now. You know, obviously I'm scared. I don't know what's going on, you know, and what I did, I started like, you know, trailing behind him. Trailing behind him.

[B]

It's like you jumped off the train and you were following them to see what was happening.

[A]

Yes. And about 10 minutes. And it's pitch black, darkness. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm going behind. Complete quiet. They're not even talking. Wow. So I came over there and like, for about 15, 20 minutes, I'm just going behind them, you know, jumping from tree to tree, just, you know, so they don't see me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I remember, you know, there was. They came down the hill, and in this hill there was like a small village, like five, six houses. And over there there were already soldiers with trucks. Yeah, soldiers. Like maybe maybe two or three trucks. And, you know, a couple of those jeeps and already maybe 20 or 30 soldiers. And outside they put like, maybe 15 or 20 people, like villagers, you know, and what happened is. And I just. I'm hiding behind the tree and I. I can see every. It's like a small valley, you know, like maybe about 2 or 300 meters away.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And everybody met over there, you know, they shook hands with those people, those soldiers who were already there. And I've seen they started screaming at those people. And it's like women.

[B]

The civilians started.

[A]

Civilians. And I could see, you know. Scared. Yeah, scared. And, you know, those. Those big flashlights are on. On them. And they started, you know, like. Like, you know, some of the women are crying, some of that. Because what. I couldn't hear what they were saying, but I could assume they were probably looking for. For men. Men of this. Of the, you know, village. And I only see maybe two or three old people, men. The rest of them Women and kids. And what happened is, started screaming for like 15, 20 minutes like this, you know, talking to them. They smack couple of women out there. They started screaming, crying, and all of a sudden they just stepped away, took the AK47 and just started shooting, just like that. And what happened is I've seen from the. One of the houses, I've seen. I've seen like, all of the sudden, like some figure, I didn't even see who it was right away. Started running, running towards me. And I told you, about 2, 300 meters away. And this figure started running towards me. And, you know, I'm looking and those soldiers, they just, you know, like nothing happened. They just killed 20 people. Smoking, you know, nothing, talking. And I've seen this figure. And as he's running towards me, you know, I could see, you know, a little kid, Little kid running, running. Like, kid is maybe five, six years old. Oh, that's so sad. And he's running. I could see, you know, he's coming towards me. And it's complete dark, only maybe the moonlight. That. That's basically how I can see. And over here, you know, there's a lot of light on those people, but behind, you know, there's nothing. And this kid started running and he's running towards me, you know, I'm like, you know, I. You know, I don't know what to do. I don't know, you know, I. You know, and over there, I'm frozen. This is the first time I've seen something like this. You know, even though I was. I was in the war all the time, I've never seen anything like this, anything. Of course. And the kid is running and one of the soldiers, one of the soldiers seen him and started running towards him. Within like a couple of seconds, he grabbed him and took him back over there. Took him back over there and just, you know, they're kind of playing with him. Took out the gun and blew out his head. Oh, my God. That's it.

[B]

And you, you watch. You saw this.

[A]

Oh, my.

[B]

So. So it was a massacre. You witnessed a massacre. They killed everybody in that village.

[A]

Everybody. Everybody. And a couple of minutes later, they pulled every, put everybody, tossed everybody in the backs of the trucks and like, nothing happened.

[B]

Was this ever reported? Did this ever make the news?

[A]

Obviously, a lot of it, A lot of it was reported, especially around this area. What they would do is there's a. There's a mine over there close by in this area, maybe like a couple of kilometers away. It's called Omeska. And over There. There are thousands. There would be just dumping bodies over there. And even right now, they're saying it's very hard to take it out because the pit is so deep. It's very hard for them to. They're saying. Claiming right now there's thousands of people out there, but it's hard to get them out, to actually bury them the way they are supposed to be.

[B]

Oh, my God. What did you do after that? Did you get back on the train? What happened?

[A]

Yeah, no, I went back. I ran back was, you know, after everything, they packed everything together. Those soldiers with the truck went one way, and those soldiers that came from the train, they started walking towards me. And I remember I was just. I kept watching this, frozen as a kid, you know, And I'm like, you know, for the first time, I just froze like this, you know, I'm like, you know, I don't know what to do.

[B]

How old were you, Adnan?

[A]

About 13. Maybe 13, 14, even years old, maybe. Wow. And what happened is those soldiers are walking towards me. I'm stuck over there. And at one moment, I just snapped. Jumped up, and I started running towards the train. And I remember I came. There's no way, you know, I'm coming onto the train. You know, I'm just, You know, I. I remember I hid next to the train. I came to the front of the train and I hid over there, and I watched those people, and I. I felt. I felt so much hatred. I. I'm like, you know, for the first time, I remember, like, you know. Cause always, you know, when I tried to process this for the first. Very first time, I remember, you know, watch them, you know, go inside, and they have. You know, in the trains, they have those lights, so I can see them through the windows. And. And I remember, you know, I watched those people, like. Like nothing happened. Like part of the job. They just killed, like, 20 people, 30 people, kids and women. Like, they're gonna go home, they're gonna go to their kids, they're gonna go to their wives, and, you know, like nothing happened. And I remember this. Like, the train started going, and I watched those people and just, you know, like, helpless. I cannot do anything. And this feeling, I can never forget this feeling. Like, for the first time, I remembered the way those suicide bombers feel for the very first time. Because you see all of those people, they did this, and there's nothing you can do. And. And me, as I said, so much hatred inside. You know, I would just go inside strapped with. Obviously with a bomb onto me, go inside and just look at them and just, you know, pull the plug and kill everybody, including myself, you know, because there's nothing. Obviously, there's nothing. You know, you're so helpless, even though you want to do something, but there's nothing you can do. Nothing.

[B]

Do you think you had sort of survivor's guilt at that moment?

[A]

Obviously, yeah. I mean, if. If there was something I could, you know, do to help this. This boy, you know, I don't know, but, you know, I. I was frozen there. There by myself, you know? Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I don't think there's anything you could have done. You would have been killed as well.

[A]

Yeah. And as I said, that was the first time, you know, even though the. There was a lot of things happening in. In my city, it was, as I said, it was Serb control city. This thing wasn't happening. Like on the other side, for example, in Sarajevo, where I live right now, there were, you know, snipers, people getting killed by my city. It wasn't like that openly because they control the city. And if something like this happening, you could see on. During the night, you know, like, mask blown. But that was happening during the night, not during the day. And not openly, you know, not openly, because if somebody, for example, you would see, like, they would just snatch people during the night. But nobody sees that, right? You know? No. And in other cities, it was open and all this during the war. I heard those stories, you know, but I didn't want to believe it because I never witnessed anything personal. And this was the first time I've seen something like this.

[B]

Wow. That is so traumatizing to all of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

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[A]

Yes.

[B]

And you came with your parents and your whole family?

[A]

My, my mom, my dad and my sister.

[B]

And you went to Phoenix, is that right?

[A]

I went straight to Phoenix.

[B]

Why Phoenix?

[A]

They chose that for us. I mean we didn't have any, any choice. You know, they just basically tell you you're going over there and you know, this is, we didn't have anybody. I didn't know any. I, I, during that time I didn't even speak the English.

[B]

Right. You didn't speak a word of English at the time.

[A]

And I remember during that time it was, it was very hard, very hard because they, they sent me to, to school and during this time they, you know, I didn't speak any English and I remember I was, I sat in the back of the class and I just prayed for teacher not to call me. Why am I going to say, you know. Yeah.

[B]

And then you started, first you started working at the hotel, is that right? That was your first job?

[A]

Yes. Obviously you. To start low at the bottom.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Low paying jobs, you know, like housekeeping, stuff like that. I worked like this for, for about two years, managed to save up some money and I always liked working with cars.

[B]

Yeah. Wait, before that your mom, your mom at the time, your mother was also working at a Doubletree, right? She was a cleaning lady at the Doubletree. Cleaning rooms at the Double Tree. And so you were doing a little bit of that as well. You were doing other sort of low paying jobs.

[A]

Yeah, I was doing that during this time I was basically going to school. I remember I was going to school from a 7:30 to like 3.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then from 4 to 12 I was working at this hotel. Yeah, that's, I was doing that for about almost two years.

[B]

And that's the Doubletree or a Double Tree.

[A]

Double Tree.

[B]

And then you said you always loved cars, so you started a car business. Tell me about that.

[A]

Yeah, so I saved up some money. I got paid for the dealer's license. Find small, cheap office and that's how I started. I remember I didn't have a lot of money, so I had to, you know, I would go to the auction, buy like 3 or $400 car, clean it up. I mean, it's. It's like a junker, you know, it looks bad, but as long as, you know, engine is good, transmission is good, you know, I'm gonna sell it. And that's, that's how I started. Basically bites, clean it up a little bit. Something minor. If it needs to be fixed, I would fix it and sell it for maybe 900, 1000. And that's how I started making money.

[B]

And did you always like cars? Did you all. Did you know what you were doing?

[A]

Yes. I mean, obviously I didn't know what I. But you know, I was learning, you know, as I went.

[B]

And what was your dad doing at this point?

[A]

He was also working. He was working at some company, obviously, you know, some, you know, low, low, you know, level job like that. Because when people come, you know, especially as a. Refugees, that's what they get, you know, whatever day the, you know, you can get.

[B]

Yeah. And then, and then your business started to grow, you started selling more cars. How did that go?

[A]

Yes, what happened is obviously, you know, first, you know, I would be buying those cheap cars, sell them, clean them up, fix them up. And then as, as I started making more and more money, I would be buying, you know, more expensive cars. And like this, I was working like this for about year, year and a half, and it was going. Everything was going great. Yes. But you know, once, once, you know, everything starts going great and especially once you start making money. And I had, I had also during this time, I had some time free time on my hands because I remember I would be going Thursday I would go to the auction, buy cars, then Friday I would bring him to the office, cleaning them up, fix them, just minor things. And over the weekend I would sell all of them.

[B]

Wow. And was it just you, Adnan, or did you have.

[A]

Yeah, only me. And then, then I have basically like three or four days free, you know, because mostly most of the cars I would sell over the weekend. Saturdays, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, they're gone.

[B]

How much money were you making a week? More or less at this point.

[A]

I would be making like I would set, buy by myself maybe six, seven cars and cheap cars. I didn't even need a lot of money to start off. You know, I would buy cars for four, $500, maybe invest 100 or $200 and sell them. Maybe 4,000, make four or $500 on each car. Seven, eight cars a week, you know, like three, $4,000 a week, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that was, you know, that was good money compared to, you know, I was making what, maybe, maybe 14, $1500 a month.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And so you started with the free time?

[A]

With the free time. I. I started gambling. That's what happened.

[B]

Well, but you. It's interesting, I was reading how you did. You didn't actually. You had never really gambled before. It wasn't something you hadn't had. Had access to a casino. And what was your first visit to the casino? Visited a casino.

[A]

What happened is one of my friends just came from, back from Vegas and he was telling me, you know, gambling this and that, blackjack. And I'm like, you know, and that was, you know, couple of weeks ago. I remember that. And I'm like, I didn't even pay any attention. I don't care about that. You know, I was, you know, focused on my business and that's it. And one day, how it started is friends of mine, they were all of them, because usually on the weekend, you know, we would gather together and we'll go outside, you know, to the bar, to the coffee shop, stuff like that. But this time all of them went to like over the weekend, a small, like two or three day vacation to San Diego, from Phoenix to San Diego. And they obviously invited me. I told them, you know, I gotta take care of the business, you know, especially over the weekend is the busiest time for me. And I'm cruising all by myself at night and you know, what to do, what to do. And I remember my friend's words when he was telling me about casino and gambling. And I'm like, okay, let me go check it out. And in over there in Arizona, there are casinos only on Indian reservations. So first time I went over there, I remember it was a South river casino. Went over there. I just gambled for like about 300. I gave $300 and I gambled almost all night, back and forth. You win, you lose, you win, you lose. And at the end I lost, went back home and like, you know, that, you know, inside, right away, you know, I gotta get it back. I gotta get back those $300. So tomorrow I went back the next day.

[B]

You went back?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

The very next day I went back and I remember I played again and I won that night. I won. I walked up, walked out with those 300 back and couple of hundred dollars extra. And that's how everything started. Oh, wow.

[B]

How much did you win the second

[A]

time you went back, like, a couple of hundred. Not too much, but a couple of hundred.

[B]

So when you. So you started going every single day?

[A]

Not every. In the beginning, you know, it starts slowly. Everything starts slowly. Like, you know, you start first, you know, it was like, you know, I remember first back to back those two days, and then I waited, then after a couple of days again, and then within probably two or three months, I was there on a daily basis.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Did you realize at the time that this was an addiction or what? Did you.

[A]

Gambling is a silent addiction, Even though you don't want to. You don't want to admit it to yourself. And when you mentioned that, a lot of people actually contact me about this, like, because they know what. What I went through from all over the world. And I remember one guy, he messaged me. He messaged me on Facebook and he said, like, I need help. And I'm like, okay, how can I help you? And I told him. He told me, basically, he has a problem. He is gambling everything. And I told him, look, the best way is, you got to admit it, you gotta. You gotta have those people close to you, help you, give them, you know, credit cards, money, whatever. Give him access to that. And he said, and this is what he told me, like, you know, I don't want to let anybody know. I mean, you gotta let people help you. Right?

[B]

It's. Yeah, it is. It's called the silent addiction. Exactly because of that. Because while when you're addicted to alcohol or drugs, usually it's very easy to tell. People around you can tell that you have this addiction, but with gambling, it's very hard. You can go years and years, and no one. No one realizes that you've got an addiction, but it's incredibly destructive. And then it's another interesting thing that I found out recently about gambling is I've actually covered. I've done stories about gambling, as you know, but how you get the dopamine level, you get that dopamine hit. You get it whether you win or you lose. So you're constantly chasing that, and it's not only when you win. So even if you start losing everything all the time, you're still getting the dopamine rush.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. And. And that's. That's when you. When you mentioned silent addiction, that's basically what was happening with me on the outside. Everything looked normal. Everything like, you know, I would be. Because I managed to actually hide everything. And I could see myself in this guy, you know, in the beginning, it was exactly like this. And I was telling him this from the experience, personal experience. If you really want help, you got to let those people. You don't have to broadcast this to everybody, to the whole world. You have a problem. But, you know, your wife, your brother, your sister, those people who care about you. And on the outside, you know, I remember during this time, everything looked perfect on the outside. I had business, I managed, everything looked like you and I was making money, especially during my, you know, after I grew so big.

[B]

Because you started having people working for you as well, right? You grew into big business.

[A]

Yes, I managed to open up a restaurant. I had a body shop next to my dealership, all that and. But everything looks perfect on the outside. People are thinking, you know, you're making money, you're managing all those people, you have all those businesses. But on the inside, there is like thousands of wars waging inside of you. Yeah.

[B]

Did your parents know that you were going to the casino every day?

[A]

No, no, No. I mean, the thing is, you know, they knew. They knew if I went all. My sister knew if I. If I went over there. But, you know, not that they extended how much I was gambling, you know.

[B]

So tell me, at the peak of your gambling addiction, how. How much time were you spending at the casino and how much money were you losing?

[A]

I mean, I would be over there sometimes. I remember in the morning I would drive my mom to work, drop her off. Casino was about 10 minutes away. Go to the casino, spend over there, maybe half an hour, maybe an hour, win or lose. Then I would go to the office. And after office, after, I mean, I'm dead tired, like seven, eight o', clock, you know, all day working, you know, managing things. And after work, to the casino. Casino wasn't closed. It's like maybe 40, 45 minutes away from my house, you know, and like on a daily basis like this.

[B]

And you would go to the casino right after work again, and then you'd stay there until what time?

[A]

Like sometimes like two or three o' clock in the morning? Yeah.

[B]

And how much money were you losing? I mean, how much were you gambling?

[A]

Basically everything I remember, you know, everything. I would sell a car and I would donate everything to the casino.

[B]

Were you constantly, what was, what was going through your mind at this time? Were you constantly trying to figure out, I lost this money. The more money I'm losing, the more money I have to gamble because I have to make this money.

[A]

That's that gambling mentality, right? That's it. And I kept telling this to myself, all I have to do is win my money back. And I promise myself, once I win it, I promise I'm never going to step inside. That's never going to happen.

[B]

Yeah, so it's, there's sort of no rationality in play. Right. Because it's a well known thing, people know that because the casino, the house always wins. Right?

[A]

Always wins. And that's, that's, that's one of the things. But me as a gambling gamblers in general, and I still have friends, I still have my, one of my good friends, whenever I talk to him, he still, you know, he still gambles, he stills, you know, but he still believes that, you know, he can get on

[B]

top of them, that he can win.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so this was what you were like at the time. You still believed that you'd be able to get that money back?

[A]

Yes, I always. Because all, all I have to do is just. Because the thing is, you know, casinos, if you go to the casino, if, and if you lose all the time, nobody would be going over there. But sometimes, you know, sometimes you win. Yeah, I remember, I remember like I would go over the dead tired and I'm sitting, you know, my office is, you know, like maybe three or four miles away from my house and I go, it's like 10 o' clock at night. I would be over there all, all day from, from early morning all the way tonight, working and I'm, I'm dry and I want to go home. I want to go home because I mean, I'm tired. I just want to go home, sleep and, you know, wake up in the morning and go take care of the business. And I remember sitting at the light, you turn right, you go, go home or straight go to the casino. And that tired. And I remember that, that voice inside my head starts telling me, you know, okay, this is the night, go. You remember that night when you walked in with 500, walked out with 20, which is. Right. You said that happened. That happened, yeah. And I'm like, no, I don't. I just like gonna sleep. And that voice almost always prevails, go,

[B]

did we, you, you had a girlfriend at the time, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Did she know to the extent of which you were spending.

[A]

She knew, she knew. And she had, she also had problems in her family with that. And she knew what gambling does and she was always, she would be, you know, crying and, you know, telling me all the time to stop. And, you know, gambling is gonna be opening the doors. This, this is why it's so destructive. Opening the Doors to all other kinds of things. Like in my case, lying, you know, I would be, you know, lying, you know, I would be in casino and obviously, you know, I'm taking care of this. You know, I'm in the bank, you know, I'm adoption or I'm fixing buying parts, you know, open the doors to all kinds of lies. And then you have to cover one lie with another lie. And then you are entangled in a big weather of lies. You don't even know what's. What's the truth. Yeah.

[B]

You know, I mean, in your case, more than lies, it led to also the heist which we will talk about in a second.

[A]

Did.

[B]

So you know, your parents didn't really know that any of this was happening, did you? Your father had an addiction as well, right?

[A]

Is your not gambling maybe alcohol, but not gambling?

[B]

Yeah, I think I read it somewhere. See, your father had. Was.

[A]

Yeah, he was drinking a lot during.

[B]

When he was in U. S. Or back in Boston.

[A]

In the U. Even before, but you know. Before. Before the war. Yes, during the war. Obviously there was, you know, you cannot be buying sometimes, you know, even during the war, you know, he would take money that I would give to the mom and find ways to. To buy alcohol. But in the. Over there in the US Too, towards. Towards the. He found out, you know, what alcohol does towards the end. I remember maybe one or two years before I got arrested. And he. One of the reason he started is because doctor told him to.

[B]

To stop.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Drinking.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So he was an alcoholic?

[A]

I wouldn't say alcoholic, but you know, borderline.

[B]

Did that have an effect on your life or your relationship with him?

[A]

Obviously it did. It did.

[B]

How so?

[A]

I mean, he was. He was very abusive towards my mom. Very abusive? Yeah. Like he hit her. Yeah.

[B]

And you watched that growing up or did that get worse in the U.S.

[A]

not in the U.S. they basically separated. In the U.S. they separated because of that? Yeah, but in the. In the, you know, before the war and during the war.

[B]

And did you have a relationship with him while you were in the US or was it mostly with your mom?

[A]

Yes, yes. I mean, they separated and I had a relationship. I had to take care of both of them, you know, so I had relationship with both of them. But obviously, you know, because I've seen who's right, who's wrong. Obviously I was always on my mom's side.

[B]

Do you think there's a connection between your dad's alcoholism or his borderline alcoholism and your gambling addiction?

[A]

I don't know. I really don't I mean, I would love to say yes, but I could not see the connection.

[B]

And so you were hiding all of this from your mother. And then what happened? It was one day where everything changed, right? Where you decided that you needed to figure out a way to make your money back.

[A]

Well, what happened is there was during my gambling, you know, addiction, there were two stages. First, when I was, when I started all by myself and I lost everything, I lost everything. And I remember at my lowest point, a lot, because I told you I would sell a car, go straight to the casino and gamble everything. And I sold all the cars. There's nothing. And I remember on my parking lot, I had about 11 cars. 11 cars. And all of them are non working. I told you those, those are cheap cars I bought buying for 300, $400. They're not. And, and three or 400 when they were running. And sometimes, you know, it's a risk. You know, when you go to doctor, sometimes you would buy a car and you know, it runs and after a couple of days, engine blows up. And I had about 11 of those cars. And I just, you know, because of my gambling, instead of taking care of the business, try to fix them or sell them or whatever, you know, they just kept sitting over there and I gambled all the cars. I don't have any more money. Everything is done. I only have those 11 Junkers not running cars. They're not even worth, worth much. And I remember came to the night previously, I lost everything. I sold the car. I lost it, came back home, slept couple of hours, woke up, went to the office and again, you know, that gambling mentality, you're like, how am I gonna get the money? You know, every day was, you know, before, okay, I'm gonna sell this car. Hustle, sell this car, take it and. But right now there's no cars to sell. At least running cars to sell. And I'm looking at those junkers, you know, and nobody's gonna buy those cars. You know, if they're gonna buy them, you know, it's not for a hundred dollars for a car, you know, you're gonna maybe give me a hundred dollars. Yeah. And the only thing who would buy it is basically a junkyard.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you know, and it's, it's a, it's a good car. Just, you know, need some, some fix. Sometimes it's a major fix, sometimes it's a, it's minor, but it's not running. And I remember I picked up the phone and started calling junkyards.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

To Sell the car. And I made a deal with a guy, he came over there, I gave him all the titles. I remember 11 cars for eleven hundred dollars. Oh, my God. Imagine I took that money to the casino, gambled everything, couple hours and lost everything.

[B]

And then how did you start again?

[A]

And how I started during that time, I told myself, I've seen because basically I'm, I'm at the bottom. There's nothing. I was basically forced to stop gambling because there's no money. I don't even have money to buy myself, you know, meal. Wow. And, but when God wants to help you, you know, he's gonna find a way from unexpected sources. And this is how I started again. And I, I firmly, wholeheartedly. Because I've seen, I've seen what it is. And sometimes somehow it, it, I remember that feeling too. You know, I woke up after I lost everything. I woke up and I like, you know, I'm relieved. I don't have to, you know, be looking for the money. I don't have to be, you know, finding ways to go gamble. And even though I didn't have anything, I felt relief. And I went to the office. Even though there's nothing to. But out of the habit, I went to the office. And this, this is what was happening in my office. It's like a building. And during the past couple of months, tenants kept leaving. Okay. And I'm in the office and the owner of the building calls me and I'm like, man, he's going to be asking for the rent payment. And I don't have, I told you, I don't have money for the meal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm like, man, why am I going to tell him? And I, I, I was only, and I was always, most of the time I was paying him on time, you know, And I'm like. So he's, I picked up, he said he'll come to my office. And I'm like, I'm already, you know, trying to find out why am I going to tell him. So I go over there, sit down and started telling me, you know, this and this. You know, I sold this building. You know, as you see, everybody's leaving. You're one of the last tenants here. And he said, the city is going to contact you. And I'm like, why they're gonna contact? Because, you know, this building is not mine anymore. I sold it to them. You know, you gotta deal with them now. And he said that they might give you some kind of deal. And he gave me the number and I'm like, what about the rent? He said, don't worry. Deal with them. I'm like, okay. So I called the number right away, and the guy knew who I was, right? And I was. I told you I was one of the last tenants over there. And I called the guy and said, yes, you know, as you know, we are gonna. They were building some kind of right rail in Phoenix during that time, and this building was supposed to be some kind of station. I said, yes, this, this. You have a contract with him, you know, and you. He said, we know. We see that you are eligible for relocation assistance. Oh, my God. And I'm like, okay, so what do I have to do? No, nothing. Just give us, you know, your contract that you have contract over there. And since, as you know, we bought this building, you know, you have to leave. I would leave anyway, you know, because.

[B]

Because you couldn't. Progress.

[A]

Yeah. And I'm like, okay, so what? Well, you are eligible for up to 25, 000 in relocation. I'm like, oh, my God. Okay. And like. And that opened the door to everything. I gave him the, you know, all the paperwork he needs. And I remember they gave me a couple of checks in stages, like 5,000. I have to give him the contract that, you know, basically the contract to stay over there. And I asked him. I remember this. I asked him, okay, when do you guys want me to leave? And he said, you know, you have six months. And. And I asked you, what about the rent? Don't worry about this. I'm like, so six months, I could stay over the rent free and still, you know. And they gave me the money. I remember they gave me first 5,000. And I started working slowly like this.

[B]

So you didn't go to the casino with those first 5,000?

[A]

No, no, I. I wowed, you know, no more gambling. This is it. I'm done. Because I've seen what it did to me, right? And this was like a blessing to me. Unexpectedly, right? Unexpectedly, this money is coming to me. And I was like, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna waste this chance again. You know, I've seen what he does. I gambled. I worked, like, a couple of years. I built everything up, and I lost everything. And I'm not gonna let this happen again. And I remember I took this money. I found another much nicer place right next to the street, Main Street. And this is actually like a real car dealership. Before, I had a small office, cheap. Like, I was paying like, $300 a month just for the license. I Had to add it for the license. But right now I bought, you know, like, a real small dealership. Like, you can park maybe 30, 40 cars. And. And I got the lease over there, and I started. I remember, even though it wasn't too much, the. Because they gave me, like, altogether maybe about 25,000, but I had to spend a lot of money on, you know, lease. I had to spend, you know, some. Some money on, you know, paying off the debts that I had. And I remember, first time I got onto this new dealership I bought. It was three cars. Three cars and whole dealership. It was kind of an embarrassment. Whole dealership, only three cars. Grand opening, you know, three cars on. And. And at the end of the day, you know, like, we opened on Friday and Sunday, we sold all the cars. And now, grand opening, empty lot, you know, no more car. But how, you know, when God gives you blessings? I took that money, and within three months. Three months, I had this whole lot filled up.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Because, you know, sell, you know, sell three cars, take the profits. Now next time you bought four, buy four. Right, but take four, you know, now five. Within three months, like, I had. Whole lot was filled up.

[B]

What was it called, the dealership, Alice.

[A]

It's motors.

[B]

Okay. Your last name. So you started. So in three months, you had a full lot. You were doing really well. Is this when you also got the business in the business. In the restaurant business that also.

[A]

Yes. What happened during this? My. My. My whole business was like a socializing place. You know, friends would come over there to, you know, talk, see what's happening.

[B]

Was it a lot of. From the Bosnian community that would come over? Yeah.

[A]

And right next to next door, there was a building, and the guy left. And I spoke with the owner, and they said, you know, you can take it. You know, I'm gonna give you a good deal. And they gave me an idea. Okay, I'm gonna open up the restaurant over there. So, you know, we can. Cause sometimes when customer comes, you know, they come wait for the paperwork, or they're waiting for the cars to get fixed. I would just send them to the restaurant. Just chill over there, you know. So, you know, it's like a convenient convenience. And that's basically what happened, you know. So I had this body shop, I had a car dealership, and I had this restaurant. And I didn't have a lot of money in the bank, because money didn't. It wasn't worth it. I was always. Any businessman will tell you, you know, you should not be keeping money in the bank. You should just, you know, be reinvesting. Reinvested in the business. So that's basically what I was doing. Just, you know, if I had. That's why I grew so big, you know, I would just. Because money had no value to me, you know, I would. If I had 10,000. I'm not gonna keep it in the bank. I'm gonna go buy a car, you know, and that's basically how I was doing it. And then, you know, this body shop, then the restaurant, and, you know, I had all of those people that. That, you know, they depend on my business, you know, because, you know, I was paying them. And not only them, but their families depended on my business. And everything was going good during this time. Everything was going good. But again, you know, that. And that's what's dangerous about gambling. This is what I've learned. If you go even one time, one time, it's basically like you've never left. Yeah. Like you've never left.

[B]

Yeah. In that sense, it's very much like alcohol or drugs. Right. You can. You can't just do it. I'll just do this one time. And yes, it's the last time.

[A]

And when you. When I. When I mentioned this, it's not only like. I mean it also in the literal sense, because I stopped gambling for about three years. And, you know, when you go to Casin on a daily basis, you see same people, same. Same faces, right? And I. I remember after about three years, when I walked into the. The same casino, it's like I never left. Same people, same faces, and it's so sad. So those people. I know those people are wasting their lives. They're wasting their money. They're probably destroyed in their families, but they're still there. Wow.

[B]

Were you recognized at the casino?

[A]

Like, people.

[B]

The workers knew who you were?

[A]

Welcome back. If you're over there every day, obviously they're gonna recognize you. Right? Wow.

[B]

What was it that led you back there? Was it. How. How did that happen?

[A]

That one thing, like, boardroom, you know, friends. I remember one night, me and my friends, we were cruising around after. We were in, like, a restaurant, coffee shop, and my friends, you know, they would. They. They would. They would be going over there because I started gambling, and a lot of my friends started gambling. And when I quit, the. The thing is, you know, with me, why it was so extreme is I wasn't. I wasn't living paid paycheck from paycheck, you understand? So majority of my friends, they get. They get basically paycheck if they have to pay their bills. They pay their bills and they go gamble at casino.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But with me, it was, it was different because, you know, sometimes today I could sell, for example, three cars, get $30,000. Right. So it's not, you know, I'm like, basically it was a cash flow business. So I always had money. Right. On a daily basis. Right. You know, it's not like I have to wait until Friday, two weeks right now to get paid. Yeah. And I cannot gamble no money.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I, I was able to, because of my business, I was able to gamble every day.

[B]

And so you went back that day with your friends after three years of not going.

[A]

And I, you know, I'm like, you know, I'm not going over there and this and that. No, let's go over there. You know, a hundred dollars. And like, you know, it's a hundred dollars. That's it, you know. And I told myself, I'm not going to gamble more than 100. And what happened? Sat down $100. I lost it. And as I said, you know, I wasn't gambling. I'm not going to gamble more. I watched them gamble. I lost that hundred. Packed up, we went back home and everything open inside. I'm gonna go back.

[B]

As soon as you got home, you realized you were gonna go back.

[A]

I'm gonna go back and again. And in the beginning, you know, and I, during that time, I was making a lot more money than the first time. And I'm like, you know, what's a couple of hundred dollars? It's nothing. I'm not gonna even, you know, my bank, nobody's gonna notice this. If I go gamble a couple hundred dollars a night, that's nothing. And, but that's, that's why it's so dangerous. You start, you know, small and all the way, you know, a couple of weeks or a couple of months later, you are basically gambling everything that you have.

[B]

Yeah. The trick I think your mind plays on you is that it tells you that this time it's going to be different. Right. You're going to be able to manage it. You're going to be able to self impose a limit and it's all going to be okay. It's all going to be different.

[A]

It's all a lie. And a lot of people, you know, when I talk online, you know, a lot of those people, you know, they're saying, gambling for, for entertainment, gambling for this, like gambling for entertainment. What do you mean, gambling? Who likes to lose money? Yeah, yeah, let's lose, let's lose. Money. It's fun. No?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah. Because the vast majority of people lose money.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How is that entertaining?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then. And then. Yeah. And then when. Then there was. There was one day that defined everything. Right. For you, right. Where you were winning a lot of money.

[A]

I was winning during this time. I was like. I was. Everybody knew me over there. Imagine you're coming over there every night. Every single night for at least a year. It was like, you know, at least a year. And I basically lost everything during this time. I lost everything.

[B]

So, wait, so, Adnan, so you started. You did. You lost everything the first time. Then you were stopped going to the casino for three years, and then you came back, and at this point, you had been going back all the time

[A]

for about a year.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And during this year, and losing again and again and again, I lost everything. And how I managed to keep everything hidden is all the cars, all the cars on my lot, they were basically paid by me because I told you I would buy a car, sell it, and then reinvest everything, all the profits and buy more cars. And within a couple of months, you know, I had a lot of cars. But what happened is now financing company, because I was in the business for a while, and financing company starts, you know, calling me, coming to my office, basically, do you need financing? You know, what we are going to be doing is we are going to offer you money. Money. With our money, you can buy cars and just, you know, once you sell them, you sell it. Just keep the profit, give us our money. That's it. They're gonna keep small fee, right? I'm like, no, I don't need that. I have my own. Why would I need it? And I remember during this time, I lost basically, you know, I started. I started gambling, you know, more and more. And on my lot, you know, starts. Car starts disappearing.

[B]

And because you're not reinvesting the money, you're losing it.

[A]

There's no money. I'm downloading into the casino. That's what I'm doing, right? People start asking questions, you know, like, you know, I had like, you know, my whole lot was filled up with cars. Now it's visibly almost half full, right? And I'm like, I remember this guy, I called him, hey, you remember that offer? And I met. He came to my office. Can you come? You know, I want to sign that paper for the financing that you offer. And signed a paperwork with him. And basically the deal was, you know, they're going to give me the money. I go to the auction, buy Cars with their money, sell it and give them. Give them their small fee and keep the profits, right? And that's very good, very good for somebody who's starting out. Very, very good. Because if I had this offer when I was starting out, I wouldn't have to be dealing with, you know, three or $400 cars. I would be dealing with five, $10,000 cars because I would be able to afford it. And now what happened? I started buying cars, but not with my money, and kept the lot full. So on the outside, everything seems perfect. But what, what I started doing, all of those cars that are mine, sell them, donate to the casino. Sell them, donate to the casino. And now what happened? Almost every single car on my lot is not mine. Every single car, wow.

[B]

It's all owned by the financing company, essentially, until you can pay them back.

[A]

But what financing company does is they do audits. So every once in a while they come over there. They basically come to the lot to see if the car is there. And if it's there, they just do the check. Everything is good. They go over there and everything is good. But what I started doing is I would take the financing company, car sell customer will give me cash, and I would have about two weeks to process the title, give them the registration and everything. Instead of paying off the finance company, you'd go to the Cassini and how. But everything started, you know, going down one day, you know, they came over there to finance the com. The audit. And there's, you know, only like five, six cars in the lot. And it's supposed to be like 20. Wow. And like, where's the rest of the cars? I'm like. And right away, you know, that's what gambling does. Just, you know, one lie after the other. Like, oh, it's still a doction, or it's at this mechanic shop, or it's inspection. And they, okay, no problem. Because they never had problems with me before. Okay, no problem, you're gonna come next week, make sure all the cars are here. That's it. Came next week, obviously, no cars. And they started panic all the way. Like, like managing directors, CEOs, all the way from the top of the company, what's going on, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, don't worry, you're gonna get paid this and that. Like everybody. Like my phone was blowing, you know, from all those people at the top of the company. And I'm like, man, why am I. And I managed because on the outside, I told you I was very respectable person. I had businesses, I Didn't have any money. If I go problems to. To go and ask to borrow money, people will give me money. So during that time, I borrowed some money, paid this debt, and just. They closed. They said, we are not dealing with you anymore. They closed it. So now there's no cars, there's no money. I only had maybe, maybe two or three cars that I still had left. The cheaper cars. And this, as you asked earlier, this changing moment, when everything changed, I came to this casino. I remember I had only maybe, maybe one or $2,000. Nothing. Nothing much. And before, I used to gamble, like $50,000 a night. No way. Yes. At night. At night. And I came over there and I told you everybody in the casino knew me. From pit bosses, from blackjack dealers, from cocktail waitresses to security guards. I mean, if you're coming over there every, Every, every day for a year, sometimes two times a day, obviously, everybody's gonna know you. And this night, I came over there and started playing, and I was on unbelievable role. Like I couldn't lose sometimes, you know, you get nights like this. You, you. You. You bet minimum, you win, you bet maximum, you win. You. You get black sacks here, Blackjacks, like, you could not lose. And in. In the couple of hours, I had, like, big mountain of chips in front of me, and I'm like, this is the night. Basically, I'm gonna get my money back and quit. And I still have that, you know, think I'm gonna get my money back and I'm gonna quit. That's it. And everything is going great. And all of a sudden, security guy behind me, sir, let me see your id. And I, like, turn around, and I'm like. And I keep playing. And I'm like, why do you need to see my ID? Well, you really got to see your ID. You got to be 21 to be over here. I'm like, man, I'm. You know, me. I'm over here, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Seven times a week.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For the. Yeah, you've seen me here many times before. Why do you need to ask my ID right now? But no, sir, you got to be 21. You know, blah, blah, blah. I'm playing, and I just, you know, half ignoring game, playing this and that. And just to get rid of him, I had my ID on me. I don't have my id. And I kept playing, and he disappears. And five minutes later, every single security guard is behind me. And there was a suited manager. He started pulling those chairs. And I was all by myself, playing at a table. They started Pulling those chairs out. And he said, sir, you gotta leave right now. The manager. I turn around, I see, like, six or seven security officers and this manager in front. You gotta leave right now. And he ordered the casino dealer to stop dealing cards. And so I couldn't play anymore. And I'm sitting over there, and every single person in the casino is staring at me. And I'm like. And I asked. I remember I asked this blackjack dealer. You know me, right? I'm here every day. And she say, yeah, but, like, she's shaking, and she can't do anything. And I'm like. And everybody. Everybody in the casino staring at me like, you know, I'm. I'm some criminal. I did something, you know, And I'm like. I'm just sitting over there, ignoring him. And he's just talking behind me and just ignoring him. And all of the sudden, somebody puts a hands on me, like. And I just jump up, turn around. I just pushed the guy. I didn't even hit him. I just pushed him. But he tripped on one of those chairs, and he fell down. And what happened is all of them started jumping on me. I just put my hands up. I'm leaving. Leave me alone. And I scooped up my chips into the cage, and every single security guard behind me, they're following me towards the cage.

[B]

The cage is where you get your money from.

[A]

Your. And again, people stop playing their games, you know, they stopped, you know, hitting their. Their slots, and everybody's, you know, trailing. And I'm embarrassed, you know, So I come over. They give them my check. They gave me the cash. And again, towards the exit, I come to, and still they're not leaving me alone. They're still behind me. And I step outside, and I'll never forget this. The moment I stepped outside, the security manager said, if you come back over here again, you're gonna be arrested for trespassing. And I'm like, okay, Gonna see me again. Six months later, I was back the Robin

[B]

to rob him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why did they. How much? So many questions about this. Why did you think they approached you the first time?

[A]

Why?

[B]

What was the. What. What was it that. Do you think it was because you were winning too much? I know casinos can actually do this, which I don't think most people know this, but casinos, they have done. They actually ban players if they think they're winning too much because they don't want to lose. And they can actually do this. They can prevent you from coming back. Not because of any particular. Just because you're winning. Too much. They can totally do it. It's at their own discretion to decide who plays in their casino and who doesn't. And one of the factors can be, you're winning too much. We don't want you here, sir.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So do you think that's why they initially approached you?

[A]

I mean, that was the first time that happened to me, and obviously, you know, that's. And I was winning before, but not this much. And that's the only thing I could think of. The only thing. I mean, I'm here ob every day for a year. Everybody knows me. This particular security has seen me 10 times, and this is the first time he's coming. He hasn't been. He hasn't been asking me for my ID when I was losing.

[B]

Do you think he thought you were cheating or something? Do you think there's.

[A]

Nobody told me this. Well, I mean, they would have told me this. They just came and just, you know, you got to leave.

[B]

And this is a stupid question, maybe, but is there a way to cheat?

[A]

In blackjack, they're saying you can count cards, but you need to have team. You need to have team, and you need to be good at memorizing those cards. But for a single player to count cards is going to be very hard. And even when you're counting cards, basically you stack the odds in your favor, right? So basically, you have more chances of winning.

[B]

Do you think that this security guard thought maybe you were counting cards? Do you think that's why he approached you?

[A]

I think he was probably. He was. I don't think he approached me on his own.

[B]

You think the manager said? Manager, but do you think whoever sent him, it was because they thought maybe you were counting cards or something?

[A]

It's possible, but they never did anything before. You know, they would have. You know, this was the first time that that happened.

[B]

And how many. How much money did you make that night?

[A]

About 40, 45, 40,000, which is.

[B]

I mean, more or less what you would also lose on a daily basis there. So a lot of money, but still nothing compared to what you'd actually lost there during that one year. And even in the three years previously when you were still gambling before, how much money in total do you think you lost to the casino?

[A]

I would say if I lost. I mean, the thing is, you know, you stop counting because you're sick. Just when you think about the number, you get sick. Because I remember this night when I lost those $50,000. You know, I'm. All night, I'm playing back and forth back and forth and come outside and sit in the car, and some people are going to work and I'm, you know, just miserable and thinking I lost in the past couple of hours more money than somebody makes in a whole year.

[B]

Yeah. So you haven't answered my question yet, though. How much money do you think you lost?

[A]

I would say probably over. Over 800,000.

[B]

Think it was more than that.

[A]

I mean, once, once you, once you, I told you you don't want to count because it's so much money. You just, you know, you don't want to count because it's so much, and you get sick to your stomach. How much are you losing in your mind?

[B]

It's around 800,000, more or less. Okay, so you left the casino that day, you were kicked out. And then what happened after that?

[A]

And right away, on my way home, I, I remember, you know, I'm gonna get him back.

[B]

Really? You were already making this plan. You're already thinking you were gonna rob this bank. This.

[A]

I'm gonna. One way or the other, I'm gonna get my money back. Because this particular casino, they took, like, majority. Even though I was gambling at the. After this, I was gambling also at other casinos, but this particular casino, they took majority of my money. And right away I'm like, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get. Was, you know, the matter of principle, revenge, My way of thinking all of those things.

[B]

And how did it go? How did you start planning it?

[A]

How do you go about reviving it every night? Every night. You know, basically it was a habit. After I would finish up work, I would go jump in my car, go to the casino to gamble. That was a habit. And after this, I would do the same thing out of the habit. I would finish up my work, even though there wasn't too much thing to do. But, you know, I would have to be over there, jump in the car. Sometimes it's like eight, nine o' clock at night, already late. And for the first time, I would drive all the way over there from my office to the casino and like, 45, 50 minutes drive. And for the first time, I would drive all the way over there, but I wouldn't go inside the casino.

[B]

So what were you doing?

[A]

I'll be just driving around and, you know, thinking, how am I gonna hit him? Sometimes, you know, you, you know, the only way to do it is basically go through the door, go straight to the cage where the money's at, and, and get it. But that's basically like a suicide mission, right? It's It's. It would be impossible, especially this casino. This casino right next to it, there's a police station. So it's almost impossible to do something like this. Within seconds, you know, seconds, they would be over there, police. And I'm like, you know, and every day, I remember for about a week, I would be driving over there. Wow.

[B]

Just trying to figure out a week.

[A]

Just cruise around and then, you know, go back. And after about seven, eight days like this, I remember I pulled about a mile away from the casino. North of the casino, it's a small. Like. Like not too many cars go over there. And I stop over there, came out and there was like a bridge. Small bridge, maybe like five, six yards. And I looked down and there was like, there was like a. Like I could see like a small entrance. I'm like, you know, I gotta check this out. And I. There was a hill. I came down and turned on my flashlight, and there was like a. Like a square box, like maybe maybe 3 or 4ft by 3 or 4ft. And I turned on my flashlight, crashed down, and I walked inside, like maybe 30 or 40 yards. And I came inside. There was a huge tunnel. Tunnel so big, like a small car could drive through it. Wow. And I, you know, look this way to the left. Go all the way. Look to the right, all the way. And I'm like, right away, I just, you know, I hope this tunnel goes all the way towards the casino, because to the left it goes towards the casino. And I'm like, I just hope it goes all the way. And what I did, I just, you know, run outside, parked my. Cause I left my car on the street. Even though there isn't a lot of cars, you know, I don't want to leave it over there. I went and parked to the parking lot, walked back, right at night, you know, went all the way to the. Towards the casino. In the, in the, in the, in the tunnel, did you walk? Walk? Yeah. Pitch black. Die. It's a tunnel. You know, you see, you know, you. That. That musty smell. It was a sword. It wasn't a. It was. It was like a storm tunnel. Not a sword tunnel.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

And I'm walking rats. Like rats. I'm talking about the rats the size of cats, you know, just. And I'm walking and I'm just thinking, okay, I just need to, you know, a little bit more. And above, above, you know, that you can see whenever the car passes through, you know, those manhole cover just, you know, echoing through the tunnel. And I went. And roughly you know, I could, you know, estimate about a mile, mile away. And I could see, okay, it goes. And I could. Even after a mile, the tunnel still goes, you know, And I'm like, you know, okay, this is it. And I, and I particularly remember this. About a mile away, I could see those smaller sewer tunnels. Those are the sewer tunnels, okay? And right away I knew, okay, this, this leads towards the casino because most likely one of those lines leads towards the bathrooms in the casino and they go over there and those are the sewer tunnel. And I was so excited during that time because I knew this is the, this is the way, this is the way.

[B]

And what was the plan then?

[A]

So the plan was basically the next day, couple of days, I came over there and I explored those sewer tunnels. Those are much smaller. Like this, like, like this. So I would have to crouch in and go over there and I just explored them. And I hope they're going to be going to the, towards the casino. And roughly, I estimated because I would go on the top, on the surface and drive roughly to see how much, how much, you know, how far is it. And then I would go down in the tunnel and I would walk and measure the steps, you know, roughly how many steps all the way. And when I've seen one of those sewer tunnel leads towards the casino and most likely to one of the bathrooms in the casino, I'm like, this is basically it. So that was the plan. Right away I knew what needs to be done. The plan would be, original plan to go inside, dig from, from one of those sewer tunnels towards the, towards the bathroom. You know, it's, it's going to be a concrete level above the bathroom. It will dig and leave a very small, small, thin leaf of piece of, of concrete above the bathroom. And we would storm the, we would storm the, the casino from the top, just so everybody knows where we at. Within minutes, police, the whole casino is going to be surrounded. But before we would prepare, I told you it would take probably weeks and months of digging to prepare everything in the tunnel. We would leave the ATV and prepare everything. The exit would be about two miles away. And there was a manhole again right on the street. So we would park a van above the manhole. In the, in the van there will be a hole. That's the only way we're gonna get out because. So, so basically the, the exit would be drive with the ATV towards this van, remove the manhole, go straight into the van and put the manhole back and just, you know, just leave. Yeah, that is the craziest plan ever.

[B]

So the idea was you'd go in through the front door of the casino, rob them, take. Steal their money, go into the bathroom, punch a hole through the very thin layer of cement of concrete that exists in the bathroom, manage to get down to the sewage tunnel, and then grab your atv, which would be waiting for you, drive the ATV to another area where you knew there was a manhole. Your van would be on top of this manhole. The van had a hole underneath, and you'd go inside with all the money, and then you'd flee, and nobody would find you out. Find out.

[A]

And during this. Yes, during this time, I was, you know, doing a lot of research. You know, how FBI operates, how, you know, what would they do in this situation? And was within minutes, whole casino would be surrounded. So I was, you know, calculating, like, you know, researching previous cases, like, how far a perimeter would it. Because still, it was like, like about a mile and a half. This manhole was mile and a half away. So I remember, I was thinking, if they set up this perimeter, you know, it's going to be dangerous for us if the police would be over there. So I was like, that's why, you know, we have to find a way. Like, the van would be right in the middle of the street, like broke down, even in the police, you know, sets up the perimeter. You know, we would still, you know, the van would be over there, you know, and I remember that right away, you know, the negotiations would start because FBI would come, we would be inside, we would get the cash. And the rules and policies of the casino, the way they are operating, they would have to give us the money because they don't want. In situations like this, first the money is insured. They don't want anybody hurt at a casino. So they just, you know, they want to give you the money. And they know, especially once you're inside and once, you know, everything is surrounded by police, they're gonna give you the money. Because then they know you're gonna get caught anyway. Because how are you gonna escape?

[B]

You're right.

[A]

And so they're gonna give you the money. We would go inside the cage, fill up the bags with cash. Police and FBI would obviously call us. I would talk to them, just, you know, try to buy some time, this and that. I would tell them, you know, just come them bring us. Bring us a bus over here. Make sure just to. To play with them.

[B]

Pretend that you're going to go out to the front door to negotiate with them. Yeah.

[A]

Yes, because they, they know there's no way out. Everything is surrounded. There's going to be, you know, hundreds of police outside. We are going to get caught. If you go through the front door. Yeah. So that was basically the plan. Go get the cash. As you mentioned, Crash through the. Through the concrete bathroom.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Go inside and disappear. Go, go. Go to the back home, turn on the tv and still, you know, look as they're searching for us.

[B]

And, and, and so the idea was that you were. You're wearing masks for all of this. Right. So you. They wouldn't recognize you. And you needed accomplices, you needed people to do this with you. You couldn't do it by yourself. So you found people, your friends.

[A]

Yes. One of my friend first was Flecka. He was. He was. He was also.

[B]

Flecka was his nickname, right?

[A]

Yes, nickname. And he was. He had a casino. He gave him everything as well. And every time, you know, and I told him, you know, even though I wasn't heeding my advice, but I would tell him, don't gamble, because I know what he does. And especially him. He was basically working from paycheck to paycheck. And whenever he gets paycheck, he calls me F. Casino. Have this, F that. They took everything that I told you, man. Don't do that. And even though. Because I felt bad for him, but I wasn't heeding my own advice. Right, you were doing it too. As I said, we were in different positions. I was. I had a cash flow business, you know, and every. You know, now I could get $10,000 if I sell a car. But. Right. He was working paycheck to paycheck. And every Friday, whenever he gets paid, have this, and I gotta come to the office, you know, I gotta pay. And he would come to ask me, obviously, for the money, because, you know, he gambled. Everything comes to me. And I would have to help him out.

[B]

Yeah. And so you knew that this guy was gonna go with your plan because.

[A]

Yeah, like, he would. I remember. And he would always be telling me, like, I have a strategy, I have this, I have that. And like, there's no strategy, man. There is no strategy. And one night, I'll always remember this, he calls me. That's. You know, that was during the beginning stages of his gambling. He calls me, let's go, let's go for breakfast, you know, my treat. So I picked him up, we went, you know, for a ride, and he said, you know what? What I decided. And he was working as a car salesman for one of the big car dealerships. And obviously he was getting paid on commission. He sells a car, he gets paid and he was making decent money. He was pretty good car salesman. He comes to me and he starts talking. You know what? I found a strategy. He goes, whole week, whole week. Monday I went over there, walked in with 100, walked out with 500 the other day, same thing, 1,000 yesterday or 500 this morning. I came in 500, couple of minutes, that's it. And I'm like looking, you know what, I decided what I'm gonna do. And I'm looking, you know, listening to him, you know, I'm gonna quit my job and I'm gonna this full time become a professional gambler. Yes. And I'm looking at them and say, burnt out. Is he serious? I'm like, are you serious? Yeah. He goes like, why would I be sitting over there, you know, all day on sun, Arizona sun, you know, hot, if somebody is gonna come and buy a car like this, I go inside 15, 20 minutes, walk out 500. Why? I'm like, man, don't quit your job, man. Don't, don't be stupid. Why? Yesterday I walked in 15 minutes, I made 500, I'm like. So about a week later, scrolling me again, almost crying. He lost all the money. I lost everything. Can you please help me out? I gotta pay rent.

[B]

Okay, so you knew that by contacting this guy that he was gonna get on, got along with your plan.

[A]

Yes. So I, I, I, I remember because he hated casino. He, he gave him everything. And so one morning I called him in, we went to a coffee shop and he was always telling me about strategies. Like, I have a strategy, I have a strategy, you know, and he was asking me, you know, like, you have understand, like there's no strategy, man. So this morning I called him and I told him, okay, let's go. I, you know, I have a way how we're gonna get our money back. And right away he's listening. So I picked him up and I started, you know, talking. And he said like, he was thinking, you know, I have some kind of strategy, you know, like, you know, counting card or something like that. Like, So I started talking. Know we can get all of our money. It's going to be like, we can get like at least 5 or 6 million. Was 5. Or how are we going to get that? Like, okay, let's and explain briefly everything. Basically we have tunnels, we want to get the cash from the top. And looking at me like, and I would, you know, sometimes I would be playing with him, you know, like, just, you know, pulling his eyes, looking at me. Are you serious? And like, he doesn't know if to believe me or. Yeah. And I asked him, you in? And he was like, hell, yeah. So. So that was basically it. He got. He got recruited. He was the first one. And first. I remember that same night, I took him to the tunnel. I showed him everything, and he liked it. He liked the idea, and he was. He was on board.

[B]

And then you recruited four other people, right? Two who decided not to go last minute?

[A]

Yes. Those with two brothers. Two brothers. I knew they were basically. They would be, you know, pretty good fit for this. And I told them I. I wouldn't. FLA was the only one who knew the full plan. But to. To them, I would just tell him, basically, there's a job to do, A lot of money. Are you in?

[B]

What was it? So what was the role of each person?

[A]

So me, Flaka, and one other guy would go to the top, get the cash with. With guns.

[B]

With real guns.

[A]

Real guns already. The original plan was with the rail guns. And the other other guy, he would be a driver, basically. We need somebody to wait in the car.

[B]

Yeah, in the van.

[A]

Yes, in the van and pick us up. That's basically it. So I told him, basically, this is it. We have. It's going to be a lot of money. You can be set for life. We do this successfully, that's it. You're set for life. And he said, yeah, we're in. No problem. We are in. And I told him, you know, this is, you know, serious, dangerous, serious, but, you know, a lot of money. I said, yeah, we're in. And I told him, okay, once we finalize everything, I'm gonna let you know and that's it. But I want your full, you know, guarantee that you're gonna be said, yeah, no problem. Both of us, two brothers, both of us, Zane.

[B]

So two brothers. One was a driver, the other one was going to go in with you?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. So he had four people total.

[A]

Four people altogether.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so now me and Flakka, we had to. We are going to go over there, figure out everything. If we have to be digging, you know, dig like, you know, just maybe five, six yards until we reach the bathroom. So this is where problems start. To do the digging. I found out online, basically the rough, rough layout of the casino. And to dig, as you know, you know, you have to be precise. Imagine you have to be digging exactly over there. So when, you know, when you storm from the top, you know exactly where to smash of Course, I mean, even if you're just one, one foot away, you're basically smashing at the wrong place. That's going to be disaster. You do everything right, you cannot find a hole. And so I figured out all of those things, but I couldn't find out, you know, the, the exact, like, layout of the casino. Like, like to the. Basically to the inch. And I knew a guy inside the casino and same thing with him. When I was speaking with him, he was, he didn't like casino. He've seen what he does. And he, he told me he had cousins who basically lost everything. He knew how casinos are destructive. Basically, they are destroying lives. And I spoke with him and I like, you know, why do you work? He said, you know, I gotta pay my bills, you know, and slowly started talking and I started, you know, asking for those questions. So he started providing me the information, inside information from the casino. And I asked him about this, you know, could you. Is, is there a way. And he, he worked in the security office anyway, for you to find me the map, like, drawing of the casino. I said, no problem, I'm gonna take care of that. And I. Okay, excellent. So all we have to do, get that map. And based on the map, we will do the digging and exactly. We know where we're digging. So everything is set. Basically, you know, all we have to do is, you know, get our hands on the map. And one week passed, I called the guy, he said, no, I'm still looking. Two, three. And he just, you know, kept, you know, prolonging it, prolonging it. And I'm like, you know, we have, we need this. Okay, you told me when I get this. And after about four weeks, he said, no, I cannot. I'm sorry, I cannot, I cannot do this. I cannot find it. And I'm like, right away, I think, because without it, you know, it's, it's going to be blind. You're going to be digging. You don't know. And I'm like, first time that was like, we cannot do this. We cannot do this because it would be a big risk, just digging blind. And then, then you're stuck in the

[B]

casino with no way out.

[A]

Yes, yes, exactly. And then I remember for couple of, couple of weeks like this, I was trying to figure out a way. But nothing, nothing without it, without knowing exactly where to dig and how to dig, there's no way. There's no way I would do this because it would be, it would be like, you know, basically would go inside and I just said, there's no Way out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And what, what gave me another chance. I was same thing, you know, it was basically my habit. Sometimes I would. I was. I dropped off my mom at work and same thing, like 10 minutes I would drive around the casino and go back to. To my work. And what I did is as I'm passing, it's like early morning, passing by the casino and behind the casino, I've seen. I've seen a van, white armored van. And I'm like, okay. And I turn around. I remember I turned around right away and started driving. And I see like two guys, one watching his back, another guy just, you know, look, nothing, nothing. Bags of cash, like clear bags of cash just unloading. And I'm, you know, driving maybe like couple of, couple of yards away from them, Nobody paying any attention to me. Nothing. And I look like big mountain of cash. A couple of million.

[B]

So this is a CIT truck, one of those cash in transit.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That armored vehicles that carry the cash to and from the casino.

[A]

Yes. So they would. What I found out later during my research, either they're replenishing the cage because in the cage they had to have a specific number, amount of money, or they would be filling up those ATMs. They had like five or six ATMs and filling up those ATMs. So I'm like, that gave me idea right away. So instead of going inside the casino, you can just hit them and still utilize the tunnel. And that, that was, that was basically it. So now we had to find a way to how, you know, how am I going to utilize the tunnel? And during this time, it's already a couple of like four, about four or five months. I know every inch of the tunnel. I'm over there almost every night. So I'm thinking which manhole cover we can use. And right in the middle of the intersection, about 500, 600 yards away from the casino, there's a hole right in the middle of the intersection. And I'm like, okay, so this is what you can do. Get the money from the armored truck, get in the van. Everybody's going to see him, see us. We're going to drive slowly to the middle of the intersection, back over there. Remove the manhole. Same thing, same plan like before, over. The ATV is going to be waiting for us. Jump down, get on the atv, and same exit like before to another van. Yes.

[B]

So even if you were being followed after stealing the cash, you. They. They would just see then the van stop, and then they wouldn't be able to figure out at least Immediately or catch you under the tunnel. Okay.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so what happened next?

[A]

So what happened is now everything is. Was basically set in motion. Everything. Now, this plan. I told Flaka this plan. And now as I was doing more research during this time, especially couple of weeks before we did this, there was a lot of bank robberies, especially in Arizona, and. And armored truck robberies, where people get killed. Yeah, people get killed. And just like a couple of days before this, I was. As I was doing, this guy was killed. Armored guy was killed.

[B]

So the guy in the van, like, the guy working. Yeah.

[A]

He got can. I'm like. Because I guess he tried. Because they tried to play cowboys.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, it's not your money. Give him the money. That's it, you know, so guy tried to play cowboys, pulled out the gun. The guy shot him. And I'm like, man, I don't want to be going, you know, exposing myself. Work. It's all about the money. I don't want to hurt nobody. And I'm like, you know, if you go over there, you don't know who you're gonna hit. And later, I would be reading in my police report up my. My arrest. The guys that we hit were ex Marines. So those people are trained to shoot. Right. And I'm like, now I'm like, if you go over there with, you know, real guns, even though you don't want to shoot them, they're gonna take out the gun and shoot you. So it's either he shoots you or you shoot him. And I'm like, now it's. I'm to the point where, you know, there has to be something else. And I already told those guys, everybody, basically, the plan. The plan is, basically we go with AK47s. You know, when you sh. You. Because most. Most of the time, when you see three guys with AK47s, you're going to have, you know, and sometimes people still, you know, want to play heroes. And that was the plan with real guns. And now I'm thinking, even though I don't want to, because I. I'm gonna be responsible for other people's actions as well, you know, Because. Because that would. I did a lot of research. Even if somebody else shoots, even if the guy shoots and kills somebody else, I'm gonna be responsible for this, you know, so. So I'm thinking, thinking, and I'm like, you know what? There has to be another way. We are not going to be using real guns. And I remember I was peppered a couple of years ago. I was pepper sprayed and basically, you cannot do anything. You cannot breathe, you cannot see. You're basically completely incapacitated. And I'm like, you know what? Maybe that would be a good idea. Because there's only one way is to. To just right away try to incapacitate those guys so they cannot do anything. One way was pepper spray, another way was taser. But, you know, taser, it's. It's risky, you know, especially if they're wearing those armored.

[B]

Right?

[A]

So pepper spray, you know, you're just gonna. Pepper spray. They're not gonna get. After a couple of hours, they're gonna be fine. That's it. So I'm thinking, thinking, you know what? And especially as they passed, I read another. Another report, same thing. Somebody, another guard. In this case, I remember the. The guard, there was a shootout. The guard didn't get killed, but the guard accidentally shot a bystander, killed her. And they charged this guy for, you know, with it, with the murder. And I'm like, okay, we are not going to be doing this with real guns. So I remember I called Flaka to the office and I told him this. And I'm like, you're crazy. This is suicide. This is. So you're going to be hitting those people with pepper spray. They're carrying shotguns, and, you know, that's suicide. And in the office, me and him are sitting in the office, and I pull out a gun, and I had a big.45 revolver. I gave it to him, take. Takes the gun, take out pepper spray, just. And he was like, maybe 3 or 4 meters away from me. Pepper spray in his direction. He just starts coughing, steps outside, and I told him, can you do anything?

[B]

Are you able to use the gun at this point?

[A]

You're crazy. I can't breathe. I can't see. Can you shoot? And he goes, like, screaming and yelling, can you shoot? I can't see anything. So after. After a couple of minutes, he washed himself, he came back inside. Okay, would you do anything? I said, no. Okay, you had the gun in your hand. You couldn't shoot, you couldn't breathe. You couldn't see you. So we are going to be doing the same thing. I'm gonna be the first one. I'm gonna be the first one. I'm gonna carry the pepper spray. I'm gonna spray him, and that's it. I just need your help to, you know, carry the bags and all this fake AK47, you know, to. So they. If they think, you know, that we have real weapons, everything is set. Flaka is on Board with pepper spray. We all set? Basically everything is set. I called those two guys to the, to the office. I remember we had a. In the. We had a meeting in my garage. And I slowly start explaining the plan. And they ask what kind of guns you're gonna be using. And I told him, we're not going to be using us. You're going to be using one fake AK47. And I'm going to have the pepper spray. Oh, my God. That's suicide, man. That's crazy. That is great. You're going to be hitting guards who are carrying shotguns with pepper spray. That's suicide. You're just going to get yourself killed.

[B]

Yeah, they have the same reaction as, like, I am.

[A]

Yes. You know what? Pepper spray is going to be much more. If I don't want to get anybody killed over there, it's going to be. They're going to be incapacitated right away. They're not going to be able to see anything. They're not going to be able to breathe. You're going to get the cash and that's it. And they were like, no, I'm out. Another one. I'm out. And I'm like, okay. And I told them, okay, if you don't want to do it, that's it. But whatever we discussed over here, it stays between us. I said, no problem. This is it. But, you know, this is suicide. This is suicide. And during this time, I'm like, you know, because we need. We need more people. Flaka was still on. Days pass by, weeks pass by. And Leka also start. Stops calling me, stops coming to the office. Obviously they had influence on him, you know, that this is. That's impossible to do. You cannot do this. Especially with the, you know, fake guns of pepper spray. And basically everything fell apart. I cannot do it myself. And couple of weeks like this, couple weeks like this, there's nothing. I basically, I don't have money for meal. Everything is gambled. The money that, how I was financing all this was borrowed money because, you know, I still needed, you know, things to, to pay, to manage, to finance this heist. And one night, this is when everything changed. Because, you know, I'm still, you know, basically even me myself. I told myself it's. This is, you know, impossible. I mean, we cannot do it. You know, this is it. I cannot do this myself. I need other people. They don't want to do it. That's it. And one night, this is when. One night. That's changed everything. After all day at work, I came back Home. I stepped inside and I heard crying. And I knew right away, what, right away. And I walk inside and I see my mom sitting and crying on the chair. And I'm like, that. And what I did is she was stashing money beneath the mattress. And I found that money. I took everything and gambled everything. Oh, and she found out, and she was like, she crying and just sitting over there, standing, just looking. I would like, I would, I would rather die the most horrible dead just than just listen to those cries. Know. And I'm like. And I told her, mom, I'm going to, I'm going to return it to. Promise, just give me two weeks. I promise I'm going to return it to me. And she just kept crying. And, and from that, from that day, she just stopped talking to me. She, she wouldn't talk to me. And, and I remember I, I, I promised her, I'm going to return it to. But she just adult. She wouldn't talk to me at all. At that point, you know, I was like, you know, I, I have to do this. Even myself, I have to do this. Even though I, I didn't know how am I going to do this myself? Because at least I need two people, somebody to pick me up. So I'm like, still, you know, trying to brainstorm during those couple of days, but everything fell apart. Those two guys, they already said no. Flaka basically stopped coming to the office. He stopped calling me. He stopped answering my phone call. So he's out, too. And one day, I'm in the office and my phone rings. I look, Flaka, and he hasn't been calling me because usually he calls me many times a day. And I pick up a. And he goes, you're in the office. I said, yeah, wait. I'll be there in 10 minutes. So 10 minutes later, he parks right in front of the office, jumps out, walks inside, crash on the chair, and said, we can do this. I'm like, we can do what? He goes, this robbery with fake guns, we can do this. I'm like, why do you think now we can do this? I'm like, just now I watched the movie Inside Man. We can do this. I'm like, of course we can do this. So I had him on board again for the, for the second time after he watched Inside. So we started, we started getting everything together again, but now we still need somebody to pick us up. So now two guys, a gypsy and his son. He would, he would always be in my office. And he bought a lot of cars from me.

[B]

He's also built Bosnian.

[A]

Yes. So he came. He came one particular day. He came to my office and he was asking. I was driving. I remember that was the only car I had left, Alexis. And, and I had another car, but that car was getting fixed. And he was. He always wanted to buy this car, so. And I told him, you know, you don't have the money. And I sold him a lot of cars. But he would, you know, always for payments, he would get, give a couple of hundred dollars and, you know, either he would find somebody else to buy it and make some money or, you know, it would be payments, you know, like 2, 300 every every month. So every morning he would be coming and, you know, you have any cars? But I don't have. The only car was Lexus and he wanted to buy it. I'm like, you don't have money? You know, I need cash for this car. So. And he's always seen something happening and like, you know, what are you doing? You know, you have anything, any. Any job for me? And right away I'm like thinking, okay, he can be a job. You can just be over there. I'm not going to tell him anything. I'm just going to be basically telling, okay, go over there, wait at this particular place and time, and that's it. He's not going to know anything. We're going to go do our thing, disappear. And he asks, okay, what do you have? And I ask him, okay, this is what you're going to do. Just you're going to park over here. I'm going to tell you a place where to park. You're going to wait over there. Do not move. Whatever happens, do not move. Just wait over there about 15, 20 minutes, half an hour, we are going to come pick us up. And that's it. I said, no problem. That's it. And I told him, and he asked, how much am I getting paid? And I told him, okay, you're gonna get. You're gonna get this Lexus and I'm gonna give you 50 grand. I'm like, for this, a lot of money to wait for 30 minutes. Yes. And he goes, yeah, no problem. I'm gonna do this. I said, and right away he said, okay, can I bring my son in? Why bring your son? Well, he can park behind. Cause the whole thing is, you know, his car is gonna. That we're going to be pretending the car broke down. He's just over there. He's going to pop the hood in case, you know, police comes by or something. And he said, his son will be parked behind. Okay, no problem. So in case somebody comes behind. So at the moment when we are escaping through the manhole so nobody sees us because they. The car would be blocking the view. We had him on board. We had him on board. And me and Flaka, basically, we. We went and finalized everything. It basically the only thing was left to get the manholes. One, one thing about the manholes, because I tried to open them, tried to open them. Those manholes are very heavy. Very, very like maybe like 2 or 300 pounds.

[B]

Like the grade itself, the metal is super heavy.

[A]

And I'm like, you know, this is going to be a problem because especially from the, from the van, you're going to have a, you know, you're not going to have too much leverage because you can open it when you have a lot of leverage, you know, you can just pop the, you know, metal pole, pop it up, and that's it. But from the van, it's going to be very tough because there's no leverage.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We have a small hole. And so we got to do something, you know, So I figured out we're going to do, replace them with fake manhole covers. They're going to be much, much lighter. So we went over. They took photos of them, measurements. And I took those measurements to the machine shop. They cut out to the holes, two manholes. And me and Flakka, we went back to my garage just, we had the photos of the original ones and painted them the same color, put the same letters to make him resemble the original ones. And so we had those manhole covers ready. And they're much, much lighter. Maybe, maybe instead of like 2 or 300 pounds, maybe they're like 20, okay, 20, 30 pounds. And so everything is set in the. For the. During this last week was very busy. Every night, me and Flaka, we would be in our, in my body shop till like, like three or four in the, in the morning, just basically working. We brought the, the vans over there, cut the holes, cut the hole in the driveway van.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The getaway van. Yeah. Made the grates.

[A]

Yes. And everything was set. Basically. The manhole covers were ready. Holes in the back of the vans already. We got the big pepper sprays, those big riot pepper sprays, though. I mean, the. Just pepper spray. It's a bear spray. I remember it could spray like 30 or 40ft. Feet away. So we got the jumpsuits, we got the masks, we got, we got everything. Everything is set. So that's it. All we have to do is this Guy was providing me the information because he told me basically he's going to give me the information when the ban is coming, how much money, all the procedure, everything.

[B]

That's the guy on the inside that you're still communicating with?

[A]

Yes. And he told me, he told me first. Cause, you know, I cannot take his word for it. So I already told him a couple of times, you know, tell me, when are they coming next? And he would tell me date and time because their security procedure would tell him, wouldn't tell them like, you know, they're coming at 10, 10am but they would have a window so they could not be tracked easily. It's like some kind of security procedure. So he would tell me, for example, between 6 and 9 on Friday, they're going to be over there. And I already checked him out like two or three times. He told me, I'm watching. Really. They came next time, same thing. They came. So that's it. Basically, he can be trusted. So on this particular day he told me, okay, this week, after we set everything up, he said, okay, they're coming Friday. Friday from like 6 to 9. They should be over there. And I remember he told me the. They're gonna have an extra escort. Usually when they have an extra escort, when they have in the band in excess of 5, $5 million. Wow. And I'm like, okay. But that's gonna be a very tougher for us because they're gonna be. They're having. Gonna have an extra. Yes. Security.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm like, okay. So date was set Friday and everything was put in motion. We. We got the vans. Vans ready, manhole covers ready. And Thursday, Thursday night, basically we got everybody ready, went to the Gypsy, rented a hotel close to the casino. We assembled over there. Everything is set. And one of the things about the manhole was the. Ideally you would. You would love to. You would like to replace it to, you know, a couple of days before so you're not rushing things. But with the manhole, especially this one, I didn't want to replace it two or three days before. We could risk, you know, some because they're much lighter cars or big trucks, you know, going over them and cracking them and then exposing everything. So the plan was we're gonna replace him, you know, a couple of hours before. So we minimize that, you know, big car running over and cracking. Yeah. So we parked the ATV right below this manhole. We replaced the first manhole. First manhole was the most critical one because it's right close to the casino. And I was Just, you know, hoping. All the cameras are pointing towards the casino, not outside, towards the street. So we just parked. It was like 2 o' clock in the morning, not too much traffic, parked the truck. Me and Flaka got out, popped the original one, put it in the back of the truck and replaced the fake one. And I particularly remember this. When I replaced this one, I put it, put it on the COVID it. And it wouldn't fit completely. It was like slight, slightly slight gap, like, you know, sticking out. And I'm like, you know, I tried to, you know, step on it. Nothing. It wouldn't go. I'm like, you know, who's. Nobody's going to be looking in the, at the manhole in the middle of the night. And we just need this couple of hours and that's it. So I left it like that. We replaced the other man who like mile and a half away. This one, you know, fit perfectly and that's it. So we went back to the hotel. And in case like this, what I did is my, my biggest concern was this police station. Police station. And I was thinking there could be a possibility that while we are doing this, police would come right away. Because we still need a couple of minutes. You know, they could dispatch police and they could block our way to the manhole. And if they do this, if they do this now, we are not going to have access to the Manhattan. How are we going to do. And I. We had to prepare a plan B. A plan B. And this is, you know, the worst case scenario. Basically, if something like this happens, you know, we would have to drive to our two getaway cars. I would park two getaway cars about five, six miles away. If I leave the van over there, I would jump in one car, flat car in another, and we would just escape, right? And this, this would be the worst case scenario, right? So we parked those cars over there. Everything is set in place, man. Whole covers replaced. And me and Flaka, we went over there, we parked right across on the parking lot across the casino. And I remember we were late. You know, when you're rushing like this. We came over there like past six o'. Clock. And he told me like six o', clock, you know, they're going to be over there from 6 to 9 to 9.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we came like a couple of minutes later. And I remember when I came over there, I've seen some kind of white van and it was dark. I couldn't see what kind exactly is it. They are leaving as we are coming. We came and parked and I'm thinking, could it be that we are late? And I'm like, is it possible we are late? Because he told me, from six sometimes they could be at six, they could be at nine or any time in between. And I'm thinking, so we parked over there, and it's July in Arizona. It's hot.

[B]

So hot.

[A]

So hot. And especially we came parked over there, shut off the van, and inside the van, it's like 20 or 30 degrees. You know, hotter than doubts. We are indoor jump jumpsuits. Me and Flaka, we jumped in behind, and we are just watching. And we had a. The plan was to burn everything. Burn everything we had. I had a small bottle filled up with gas. So after we do everything, you know, does gasoline everywhere? Burn the van? So there's no evidence left once we disappear inside the tunnel. And we are waiting over there, waiting, waiting. And every passing minute, it's harder and harder. And Gypsy, he's not parked. But we are communicating on the radio every couple of minutes. You guys ready? You guys ready? Yeah. I'm like, hold on. You know, just wait, wait. Once we call you. The plan was, once we start going towards the van, we will call him, get in the position. That's it. And waiting. All of the sudden, police, regular police cruising by. And then Flaka started panicking. Let's go. Go. Let's go. They're gonna see us. I'm like, no, it's just regular patrol. Don't worry. So they just passed. And I remember this. You know, I'm watching this casino. And you see all of those sad faces, sad faces coming in and out. Yeah, I see myself. I see myself like, you know, I remember, like, this, and I see, you know, some of those familiar faces, and I feel so genuinely bad for them because I see myself in a. How many. How many nights I walked out like this, going, you know, sad. Just, you know, sit in the car. He's gonna go home, have a miserable day, and just, you know, hope to get some money to come back to get his money back. And. And I'm. I remember, you know, thinking, what goes through his mind? Does he probably lost everything he has? Does. Does it go through his mind same like, you know, like he did to me? Does he ever, you know, think that, you know, you lost everything? He's gonna come back, find a way to rob him. And just watching those people. And as time passes by, you know, more and more activity starts going on. Those employees are going to work. Employees are going back to. From work. And sun is already, you know, up, but still no armor truck. And another police cruiser passes by and I'm like, okay, it's just regular patrol. They're gonna come and flacca starts, you know, no, they left this van. Was that, you know, we're just wasting time. This is it. Let's wait. We're gonna wait till 9 o'. Clock. You know, they told us the line. So 7 o', clock, nothing. 7:30, nothing. And it's already. We are all drenched in sweat now, eight o'. Clock. And I'm thinking right now, you know, it's, it's. We missed them, we missed them. This is it. Everything, everything is going to fall apart. You know, basically we already left those manholes over. Some van is gonna. Or a truck is gonna go over to crack him. Was either we do this right now or it's, it's over. And we about to leave and all of a sudden and everything like, you know, everything in the slow motion. So now I know in the next couple of minutes my, my life will definitely change. Well, one way or the other. And I know, you know, we did all this for a long time. All planning, preparation for the past six, seven months, all this basically is going to come to this leading up to this moment, right? Yes. 30 seconds. This is a it. And I just jump up, I talk like, this is it, let's go. I got on the radio, old gypsy, get going, park over there, get in your position. So jump up. We had a fake blow up though. We just, just put in, strapped her, put the passenger seat. Passenger seat. So that. To give the impression to police that basically we are still inside the van, you know, because the van is going to be definitely surrounded by police in the next couple of minutes after we do this. So strap it, the mask on like, you know, it's somebody sitting inside. And I jumped in the car, put it in reverse and started, you know, slowly going and I came right onto the casino parking lot. And I see the van is still sitting. The van is still sitting.

[B]

The armored truck. Yeah.

[A]

Yes. And the thing about this is you have to hit him at a precise moment because if you come too early. Yeah, how you're gonna get in, Right. You need, you need RPG to break it in, right? You cannot do that.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It's bulletproof and it's incredibly secured. And so you, you have to hit it once the door is open.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And somebody is outside already.

[A]

Yes. So we have to wait, you know, until they open up and while they are already basically outside. So to hit them while the Van is open. But you cannot wait too long because right away they go inside the casino. And once you go inside the casino, it's going to be very, very risky, right, because once they go inside, there's a big hallway, like maybe, maybe about 30, 40 yard hallway. So it's basically you and them. So you have to run towards them and they have plenty of time to take the guns out and shoot you. So that's going to be very risky. So we only had about maybe 40 or 50 seconds while they open the doors, load the bags onto the cart and go inside. Before they go inside. Yeah, so I started driving and they're still inside the van. We cannot go. And while I've seen the van, or would I've seen another car, as this guy told me, trailing behind him, civilian car, just a regular civilian car. And I told like, okay, this, this guy is also with them. You, you gotta pay attention to him. And I'm driving and I see those people are not coming out. So I'm like, I turn right and I'm gonna make one look spin, yeah, around the parking. Hopefully by that time they're gonna come out. So I make one spin and, and I see the security guard park the car and come out and big gun was on his hip. And I told like, this guy's with them. You got to pay attention to him because he's going to be behind us. So I made one spin around, got back on the same road. And as soon as I had the sight of the van, I could see the outside, one guy behind me. They're basically setting it up, unloading the bags onto the, onto the car. And we passed this security guard. He's slowly walking towards them. He's maybe 150 meters from, from, from this van. So I just sped up and we are about maybe 30 or 40 yards away from the, from the van. And this is it basically. And I remember Flecka, we about to hit him in the next three or four seconds. I remember Fleca saying like, don't stop. This guy from the back started screaming, don't stop. This guy from the back is going to shoot us. He's going to shoot us. I'm like, this is it, man. You know, I'm stopping, you know, I'm doing this. So I just, you know, parked right behind this van, grab the pepper spray from the, from the seat, jumped out. And as soon as I jumped out, I sprayed right away. Sprayed right away. And this was the most critical point. If he could, you know, just disable the guards, get the cash, this, this is it. Because my, my biggest concern was, you know, I just don't, don't want him to shoot us. Yeah. And right away that, what happened is they run away. Both of the guards just run away. And the, the guard in the, the driver started, you know, looking over his shoulder to see what's happening. And I remember he tried to pull out the gun. There was a gun right next to him, trying to pull it out. And I run right in front of the van. I pepper sprayed inside, inside the van and all this, the AC and everything got sucked inside. And I could see him, you know, he started coughing, the driver. So I run around and driver just stepped on the gas just squealed off and those door started flapping. The bags of cash started falling out of the van. And I came over there and I see they already loaded like three or four bags onto the cart. Nobody around me. There's a cloud of pepper spray. And I just pulled this cart like five, six yards away. Like I was already outside, you know, even he didn't know what he was doing with the fake AK47. And we got the cash inside, just jumped inside. Both of us jumped inside. And Flacker was screaming, we got him, we got him. Yes, we finally got him. And I said, it's still not over. We gotta, we gotta get away. We gotta get away. And right away I heard sirens, sirens everywhere, from the left, from the right, everywhere. And I'm like, you know, this is it. I already expected this. They're gonna be here in the next couple of minutes, but we got it. I know like 90%, we are done. This is it. We got him. You're gonna escape. That's it. We got him. So driving slowly about, not just regular driving and everybody, everybody is looking at us. I looked in the, in the mirror and already people, you know, gathered there's a big orange cloud of smoke. When I spray that pepper spray and everybody's pointing to the van and everybody looking at us. And slowly I came to the. There's an intersection and it's morning where cars are passing by. It's pretty busy. And I parked right in the, in the middle of the intersection and flak a screen behind me. You missed it. You missed it. And he was saying like, you know, so I put it in the reverse and slowly backed off and said, stop. So you gotta line up the hole with the manhole below. And right away it started, you know, to work, put the, I put the car in the parking, started spraying the gasoline all over the place to set it on fire. Yeah.

[B]

After you left. Yeah.

[A]

Yes. And police everywhere. I could hear police sirens everywhere. All those people around us, around us, you know, they are just, you know, watching, you know, they don't know what's happening. Right. And Flaka, Flaka's job was basically to go behind, deploy the smoke. Smoke grenades. So nobody could see us going down. Going down, like within couple of seconds, smoke all around us, all around us. And those people, you know, we blocked the whole street. They started just squealing around us, just driving around us. They don't know what's going on. And I'm doing my job. Job, trying to take off my jumpsuit and everything. Flaka is deploying those small grenades. And I will never forget this. When he screamed. Flaka scream. I cannot open it. I cannot open it. And I'm like, what you can't open? I jumped up. I can't open the manhole. I'm like, what do you mean you can't open them? I look down because I know you just lift up your finger, you put it. That's it. That's the whole point why we replaced it. And I looked down and like, I. I took the fake AK47, put it inside the hole, try to pry it open. Not a couple of more times. I pushed all my. All my strength down and I broke the tip of it. And I'm like, man. And I see police all around getting closer and closer. And we are parked in the middle of the street. You know, everybody's looking at us. And I'm like, man. So what happened is. You remember when I told you when it wasn't totally.

[B]

Yeah. Flat.

[A]

Yes. So what happened when I gave the dimensions to the machine shop? They cut on the outside, not on the inside. So slightly, maybe quarter of an inch. They cut it bigger. Yeah. So it was bigger. So what happened? The car ran over it. Yeah. And slammed it shut.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So now we would be better off if we never replaced them. You know, if we would still manage to.

[B]

To get out with the bigger.

[A]

We would struggle, but, you know, we would, you know, manage like this. It was sealed shut still. You would need really to go outside and big, big leverage bar to open it. And now the ship thinking, why? Why the. To the right. Now we still have plan B. Plan B to basically to the right to go try to get to those two cars. Runaway cars.

[B]

Yeah, the others.

[A]

But now, you know, okay, it's still not over. We still. We can get to those cars and escape. But now from this, I could already see maybe like less than A mile, because everything is open. And I could see the lights and sirens coming for like five or six cars. And like, there's no way they're gonna block our cause way. There's no way we can go from the left. Police sirens behind us, police sirens. And I could only from the front, the front of the casino there was like Indian reservation. I didn't hear the sirens, so I just put it in drive and just gunned it straight ahead. And during the next, I could. In the next couple of minutes, I already seen the chopper on top of us. And during the next 30 minutes, I just gave him a wild ride all over the city. City of Scottsdale. Like, I was driving like 80, 90 miles an hour. I was driving so recklessly, I was reading this in the police report later that the. The police supervisors had to call up the chase. They ordered. They ordered the police to stop chasing me. Stop chasing. That's it. Let him. Let him escape. And about after 30 minutes, 30 minutes of this wild ride, all of a sudden, because there's police everywhere on every side, sirens everywhere. Thirty minutes later, there's nobody. And I'm thinking in my mind, we got. And we escaped. We escaped. And. And I thought, like, okay, all we have to do is just get to those cars. You know, you in one car, I'm gonna go in another car, get the cash, and we are home free. That's it. And as I was driving there, all of a sudden, the van started smoking. As I was driving, you know, to the holes through the curbs, through everywhere. I cracked the radiator and I guess all the water leaked out. And I looked at the gauges. The gauge all the way to the red engine was overheating. And I stepped on the gas, started losing power. Sure. I'm like, there's no way this van is going to take us to the. To the. To the cars. I'm like, we gotta park somewhere over here and we gotta escape. That's why I told Flaka we gotta escape. There's. There's, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No matter what, do not get caught. So I parked right in front. It was some kind of medical building. Parked right in front of it. And there's no police, no sirens, nobody parked in front. Smoke care, like, van is like cameras on fire. So much smoke. And everybody's looking at us. Those girls from the offices, you know, they came out for us for a break. And I thought, like, grab the cash and do not get caught. And I'm gonna stay inside to clean up quickly. Clean up. I didn't have time to burn everything. So I'm gonna clean up the. Whatever we can clean up the fingerprints, everything else. So Flaka opened the doors and just started running. And I left about 15, 20 seconds in the van, just cleaning up. I remember I took off the jumpsuit and I jumped out, started running up to him, and out of nowhere, a truck, like, white civilian truck in front of me. Hit me, hit me. I slid over the hood. The guy jumped out. It was a detective. Later, I would read in the, in the report. So I just jumped over one wall. There was a wall right, right next to it, next to the road. Jump over the wall. And in the next couple of seconds, all the sirens again, all over sirens. I jumped onto the. It was like a one story building. I jumped onto the building on top of it. And choppers, there's already like two or three choppers on top of me. And I look down and this site, you know, I see Fleck Flack on the ground, four or five police officers on top of him. Gunpoint, bag of cash next to. And I'm looking, I'm like this, I'm just, you know, watching for like, like, like two or three seconds. But it seems like, you know, like a lifetime. You're watching this like you can. I cannot believe this is real, you know? And I just snapped out. I ran to the end of the building, jumped down. I jumped over another fence and I. I found myself in a pool. Pool. And I just walked inside this building and everything is cold and quiet. Walk straight to the bathroom. And I'm like, I don't know. How am I gonna get out of this?

[B]

And that was it.

[A]

And that was basically the beginning of my end. Beginning of my.

[B]

How soon after that were you actually

[A]

caught them in this building? This building? Within minutes. This whole building was surrounded. Right. It was surrounded. And I'm. I. I know this because I read in the police reports, they knew exactly where you were. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Where you were hiding. Yeah.

[A]

Over 300 local police officers, state police officers, FBI police officers were all involved in the chase around surround. This building was surrounded by over 300 police. That is insane. Yes. And I'm in this bathroom and I remember because my whole. Everything, because I walked into this pepper spray. Everything is burning. Plus it's amplified by, you know, Arizona scent.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Everything. I'm on fire. I just washed myself up. And for the very first time, for the very, very first time, I remember and I'll never forget this. For the very first time, I asked God to help this very, like, Like a biggest hypocrite, basically, at the very end, at the very end, basically to help me out of the position where it's, it's impossible to, to escape. Surrounded in a building by over 300 police officers, and they're about to storm the building, most likely kill you. You don't have any weapons, you don't even have anything to defend yourself with. And I remember this, and I specifically asked him this, said, God, if you help me get out of this situation, I promise you I will be doing whatever you ordered us to do and I will stop all the things you prohibited us to do. And one of those things is gambling. In the Quran, it specifically tells us, Allah tells us there is no gambling. And I thought, and I. And right after this, it's unbelievable. This was power of God that I witnessed firsthand, right, that some kind of calm and tranquility washed over me. Like everything that was happening outside and around me, it was like, you know, it's not happening to me. Those people outside, they're not looking for me, you know. So I walked outside and like a completely new person. There was some kind of laundry room across the, the hallway, came inside, grabbed some kind of shirt, white shirt, put it on. And I came into the one big day room. And the place, the building where I ended up being, it's like old retirement home. There's. I couldn't stand out more than in this place. The youngest person was like 7 years old. And I've seen like, like couple of residents, they're all, all at the window, peeking through the window. And I came over there and asked what's happening outside? Oh my God. And like, we don't know. They said like, there's a lot of police officers. We don't know. It seems like they're looking for somebody. So I just left and I went to the second, second floor and there was a big window and on the second floor I could see everything and a lot of activity. I see choppers, like three or four choppers on the top, police everywhere. I'm talking about a couple of police cars. They already set up perimeters like below, maybe like, like 20 or 30 yards below the police cars, you know, coming in. There's already about maybe 100, 150 spectators. They came out of the buildings and out of the, out of the businesses. And you know, when something like this happens, they come out to see what's happening. And I've also seen the vans, those, those vans pulling up, media vans. They pull up and start, you know, pulling up the antennas to report, report straight to the studio. And I'm like, watching this, I'm like, man, and all of those people are looking for me. And now I don't know how am I going to get out of this. I really didn't know how. And I came down and I started, you know, just basically casing the place. How am I going to get out for the exits, you know, for place to hide? Because there's no way I'm going to hide inside. They're going to search everything. So the only way I have to, I have to get out of this. And I came, you know, I just tried to memorize. I. For about five, 10 minutes I just walked around the building and nobody was paying attention to me, you know, nobody. And second time I went to the second floor and I've seen the, everything changed. It just gave me the new sense of urgency. I've seen the, in the, in the distance, like couple of, couple of civilian cars and FBI SWAT team was gearing up. They were gearing up to enter the building.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes. Their masks on, they were checking their weapons. And I'm thinking, you know, those people are going to storm the building in the next couple of minutes.

[B]

Right?

[A]

I have to get out. I have to get out. And I'm like, you know, now that sense of urgency, you know, I cannot stay here. So I came down and I've seen the patio. On the back patio, there was a patio, small, small one. And it was separated by hedge and right behind this hedge there was a. I. You stepped outside, there was a police, police car and police officer. And he was turned with his back towards me and he was just, you know, just watching. And I'm just, you know, watching this, watching. And I'm like, you know, maybe if there's a way for me to pass, sneak by him. But you know, it's going to be very, very, very tough because he's right there. He's like maybe like seven, eight yards away from me and I'm. And on the other side there's nobody but police. Nobody but police. And I'm watching this, watching and talking. The choppers, choppers on top, all kinds of noise. The radios, radios of those police officers. They are basically screaming all around you. And I'm watching, watching. And this is how what changed everything. I've seen the guy, the guy, just regular looking guy, he's all tatted up, tatted up. Came out in the shorts and shirts and started walking normally. He seen something is happening and he wanted to go, I guess to Those to the group of spectators to see what was happening and started walking. And this guy's police officer spotted him, but he didn't see this police. And this police started watching him like, like a hawk and started walking, walking, walking. And on this parking lot there's like five or six officers walking towards this guy. And the moment this guy turned the corner, he seen those officers. He just, I don't know why, he just turned around and started walking back. And this guy who was watching his every, every step got on the radio and everybody started like, you know, everything started moving fast. This officer started running over here. Those, those four or five officers started running. And I'm like, you know, this is it, this is my opportunity. Yes. I just jumped over the hedge and started walking normally. And this was like insane. I'm talking like police officers are literally like, like three or four yards away from me running towards this other guy. Yes.

[B]

And not even noticing that you're right there.

[A]

And I'm just normally war. And I'm like, this was that the longest walk on my, like only like maybe 100, 150 yards. That's crazy thinking. All I have to do is just walk to the, to this group of

[B]

spectators and then pretend like I'm one

[A]

of them and that I'm, I'm free. All that's all I have to do before if somebody sees me over here, I'm done. But if I could blend with the spectators, that's it, I'm free. And I'm walking. Like I have like 60 yards, 50 yards. I look to the left and I see this poor guy is on the ground, everybody's on top of him and you know, they're putting handcuffs on him and I'm still walking, walking 20 yards. And they're still, you know, like perimeter, there's media and behind media there's like spectators.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And right before I'm about to blend with those people, the guy jumps in front of me, short, short guy, Mexican looking guy. And he sticks the microphone under my mouth. What's going on over there? Did he get arrested? And I'm like, you know, he surprised me. Like, you know, I was, I'm thinking first thing, it's, he's a police officer. I'm like, I don't know, man. That's why I came here. I don't know. And he lost interest in me. I blend, I just, you know, went over, over him, blended in. And that's it. And then what, and then what I did is I went to one of those officers Because I didn't have anything on me. No phone, nothing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I asked one of those officers if I can use the phone. I call my friend, and 45 minutes later, he came, picked me up, dropped me off home. And I'll never forget this. Everything seems like, you know, unreal to me. Like, I cannot believe this. I walked inside of home, quiet, nobody's home. Turned on the tv. On every single TV channel, breaking news says hostage negotiations after casino Arizona robbery. Hostage negotiations after casino Arizona robbery. I'm like, what? Hostage negotiation. And I'm seeing all of those helicopters in there, like a lot of police officers around the building. And I see those same SWAT team officers that have seen live gearing up. I'm watching them on TV right now, putting them on, checking their. Checking their guns. And by looking, and I'm thinking, all of those guys are looking for me.

[B]

And they still think you're inside the building at this.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's why they're calling it a hostage negotiation.

[A]

Yes. And I'm looking. All of those guys looking for me, police officers. And at that very moment, I realized how dangerous I really am.

[B]

And wait, at this point, you know that they have Flicker?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So did you think that Flicker was going to talk?

[A]

Yes. Eventually it's going to be, you know, matter of. Matter of time. It could be days. But, you know, I knew I had to. I had to disappear until.

[B]

How much time was it?

[A]

Until they end of the day.

[B]

That end of the same day. So immediately Flecka talked and said, told them about the whole plan. Gave your ident. Gave your name.

[A]

Not about the whole plan. They didn't know about the whole plan.

[B]

But they gave your name.

[A]

Yes, but they, they. They were thinking. Originally they were thinking, okay, this is armored truck robbery. But later, when FBI found out, you know, there was tunnel, fake manhole covers, there's ATV in the tunnel. That, when they've seen it, sophisticated. It's, you know, this has to be, you know, months and months of planning.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's when they, when they did their press release, then it exploded. Ever. Because it died out. Died down initially, but then it exploded like the. In the next couple of days. It exploded everywhere.

[B]

When they figured out the details.

[A]

Yes, because quite.

[B]

You know, I did a story actually on heists and looked into the. The cit, the cash in transit heist. And it's actually much more common than people think. Particularly in the last. After Covid, it became super popular. There were 33 cash in transit robberies in America in 2022. That was the last year that the FBI published data and in 23. But, but we actually, in our story, we ended up going to South Africa because in South Africa they're like the kings of cash and transit robberies. They had 230 before cash and trend attacks in South Africa, just so like a lot more than in the United States. But it actually was becoming incredibly popular in the US and one of the reasons. And then we're going to go back to your story, but I found it so interesting. One of the reasons why we actually interviewed a few CIT robbers in Los Angeles and they told us one of the reasons it became so popular after Covid, not only because people were hurting and they were actually of jobs and they needed the money, but also because everybody was wearing a mask at the time. So it became really easy to just blend in with. With regular citizens, even when you were using a mask. So that really helped people sort of start doing this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. So then you were at home that the end of the day and you knew you were going to get. You knew that it was just a matter of hours.

[A]

You know, I had to, I cannot stay here. I had to escape. And I called this guy to drop me off to go and pick up the car that I left over there. So I went pick up the car, came back home and I'm packing. Basically, I had to. My plan was to basically go see my friend in New York, just drive over even though I don't have money. It was planning as I go, no money, nothing.

[B]

So the idea was you're going to be living as a fugitive.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And then what happens?

[A]

And as I'm planning, I called my sister, I told him I gotta leave. I called my girl, I told her I gotta see you. And she said, okay, I'm gonna finishing up work, let's meet at the park. And I'm stepping outside my house and I see civilian car. It was a Dodge Intrepid. Four people inside. They just passed by, nothing. And I'm like, you know, I'm have noticed them, but you know, okay, no problem, sit in my car. Backed out and about maybe 100, 150 yards away there's a road. And usually you turn left to right and they're still sitting over there, they're not turning. And I started slowly going towards them. And all of a sudden those two white reverse light pops popped up and they started slowly backing up, up. And I'm looking at them, you know, I'm still, you know, something is suspicious. But, you know, I don't know Sometimes they happen. Maybe they. They forgot something. Slowly, they're backing up. And I looked in the rear room mirror in case this guy doesn't stop so I can back up. Yeah. Same exact car behind, four people inside. And I'm like, so they're undercover cops. Yeah, this is it. Yeah. Later I read FBI agents. All of them were FBI agents.

[B]

And they were all plain clothes, so they weren't dressed. Yeah. And. And so they, they. They got you. That was the moment.

[A]

So they got out of the car. So they, they. The first car basically came right next to me. All four doors opened up. Two guys on this side, two guys on this side. Every single one has a gun pointed at me. The already two covers. I looked in the rearview mirror, same thing. All four doors opened. Two guys on this side, two guys on this side, screaming on all sides, eight guns pointed at me. And I'm like. And I'm still thinking, you know, how am I gonna get out of this? I have an option. You know, one option is to gun it. Just step on a gas, try to wiggle my way out. So crazy. And my aid guns, you know, they're gonna just basically like. It's gonna be like hundreds of bullets in the matter of couple of. Couple of seconds. And I'm thinking, I remember thinking about my mom, my sister, you know, most likely they're gonna kill me. You know, why are they going to be thinking, you know, killed right in front of the house, you know, right in front of the house. And I'm thinking, they're just screaming. Couple, like my 10, 15 seconds. Screaming, screaming, screaming. I'm just screaming sitting over there. And I'm like, at that moment, this is it. I just put the car in park, stepped out, and that's when I got arrested.

[B]

Raised your hands and you got arrested, and then you were sentenced to how. How much time?

[A]

Gave me 17 and a half years.

[B]

And that was not because of. Only the robbery. Right? They gave you more time because there was a, A. They said that there was a real gun in the van. Even though you didn't bring that real gun to the van. What, what happened there?

[A]

What happened is flakka. Flaka always wanted to, you know, have the real guns again. I told him it's not necessary. And nobody even. I didn't use it. He didn't use it. But he brought the gun into the van. And later on they found that gun was never used. He had fake AK47. I had pepper spray. And FBI did find a gun. And because of that, even though it wasn't used. It was found in the van. They basically, they gave me extra five years for that.

[B]

Extra five. Wow. What about Fleck?

[A]

How much time did he get that he got? Well, one of the reasons also they gave, they, they, they, they hit me hard because of this guy inside guy. Like, I got, like, I got the highest sentence after me, six and a half years. Those two, Gypsy and the son. Gypsy got two years and son got two year. Two years probation.

[B]

Wow. And, and you got the most time because you were the leader.

[A]

You're sort of the leader. And because I never, I was the only one in contact with the inside, had inside information. Guy and FBI came to me right away after they found out everything. They said, okay, we know more people were involved than you and Flakka. It was initially me and Flaka. And I told them, you know, it's only me and Flicker, that this is it, this is it. There's nothing to talk about. Then FBI was coming, couple of times to me, you know, to try to extract more and more information. When they, when they found out there was tunnel man who covers all that, you know, they were like, you know, this is not like, as you mentioned earlier, just regular, regular cash in transit robbery. This is something much more.

[B]

Yeah, this is Ocean's 11 level robbery.

[A]

Yeah. Yes. And couple of. I mean, FBI, they are very smart people and they're polite. They, you know, they respect you. They treat, you know, they treat you nicely. And they said, you know what? Your life is in your hands right now. You work with us to help us, we're going to help you. You, we're going to help you. We're going to talk to the prosecutor. You know, you might get a better son. You're going to go to jail. There's no doubt about it. But, you know, it depends. Either five years or you could face life in prison.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm like, life imprisoned, you know, I'm thinking this guy is already, you know, lying. And I said, you know, there's nothing to talk about. So. And they said, okay, no problem. Talk to your attorney. See, you know what he said, and we're going to come again. So my attorney comes and I told him, basically, they came over there this and that, and he told me, yeah, whatever they told you is true. You could face life in prison because of this gun. I mean, my first time, nobody got hurt. Yeah. But he said, no, most likely you're not gonna get that because it's your first time. You were never in prison. This and that, you know, but you, you Know, by law, judge could give you life in prison, but most likely it's not going to happen.

[B]

And then you decided to talk then.

[A]

No, I never did. No, I never did.

[B]

So Flaka did? Or how did they find the inside guy and the whole plan?

[A]

They never found the inside guy. Oh.

[B]

So till this day, no one knows who the inside guy was.

[A]

For two years. For two years, FBI was trying, you know, to come and talk to me. And I told them, you know what? There's nothing to talk about. Because first time, every from the very beginning, they came to me and they said, look, we know that somebody was providing the information. We know there is no way you could know what time are they coming, how much are they bringing, if they're going to have extra security. All that. You knew all that. So tell us. Help us out, and we're going to help you out.

[B]

And you never did.

[A]

I told him.

[B]

And what about Gypsy? Who. Who told them about Gypsy and the Sun?

[A]

They connect everything to black. Yeah.

[B]

And then you did. Wow. You did 50. You got sentenced to 17 years. You did 15 and a half in prison, Right? Was it. You did less time for good behavior.

[A]

Good be. I mean, I was supposed to get out even sooner, but, you know, troubles, fights in prison, stuff like that. Was prison hard? I was. I spent almost two years in the hall because of that. Because of fights and stuff like that.

[B]

What fights? Because of what?

[A]

Like, minor things, you know, Sometimes somebody, you know, disrespects you. Somebody, you know, somebody, especially me, like, you know, I was minding my own business. And especially when you're quiet, when you mind your own business, sometimes people try to take advantage of you, you know, and what happens? You know, that person ends up on the floor in a pool of blood. I end up in the shoe. They transfer me to another institution. I basically. They transferred me to nine different prisons.

[B]

Nine different prisons.

[A]

Wow. Yeah.

[B]

And what changed in you during your prison time? Anything?

[A]

Well, I mean, to tell you the truth, I didn't need 17 and a half years to realize my mistake. And unfortunately, there's. United States prisons are full of those people. They give those heavy sentences, especially for drug crimes. I know a lot of good people. You can see they are good people. They realize their mistakes. They don't need 25 years to realize they made a mistake. Give and punish them. Five, six years. Okay, but 25 years.

[B]

Yeah. And the problem is that the longer you're in prison, the harder it is for you to then adjust once you're outside so that the rate of recidivism of people going back to prison actually increases once the more time you spend

[A]

inside the prison, because everything, as you mentioned, everything is stacked against you. You got out, you get out, you're a felon. It's going to be very hard to get a job. So what can you do? I mean, you gotta survive. And all of those people, you know, especially if they get back to the same neighborhood, same environment, same people, they start, you know, doing what they were doing before, dealing drugs or whatever.

[B]

Yeah. Because it's their only option. And for you, so within, immediately, as soon as you're in prison, you started changing. Tell me about that change. Like what, what happened inside you and how did you see your mistakes? What did you see as causing that?

[A]

Right away? Right away I've seen, you know, because especially as a Muslim, I started reading Quran and many times I kept rereading passages about when Allah directly told us, there's no gambling there. He says in the, in this, this specific passage, he said, there's no alcohol, there's no gambling. And I'm thinking, thank you. I had all the time, me and myself and Allah to think, why, why, why? And I'm the perfect example why. He tells us directly why there's no gamble.

[B]

So you didn't grow up very religious, right?

[A]

No.

[B]

That sort of.

[A]

No, not at all.

[B]

So that happened more in prison than you became?

[A]

I was, I was a Muslim only by name. I didn't know how to pray. I didn't know what Islam is. I didn't know anything, absolutely anything about Islam.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah. And that's one thing. When you mentioned, when you mentioned I was Muslim only by name.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And when I think about this, I had a lot of time to think about this during the, my time in prison. I was not different than all of those Serbs were killing us. You know, I was only. I had a different name. I was doing, you know, if. Especially, you know, if I grew up in that kind of environment, I would be drinking, I would be gambling, I would be fornicating, I would be doing, doing all of those things that Islam strictly prohibits. So nothing only different is the name, but everything else is the same.

[B]

And then, and then once you came out in your case, it was different because you weren't a regular prison, so that you were deported as soon as you ended or how.

[A]

No, I could actually, I could stay over there, but, you know, I would. I would have to go through the immigration court. I would have to go through all that process. And you didn't want. And no, no. And I've seen a lot of people in federal prison. They go out, come back, go out. And as I said mentioned earlier, all the odds are stacked against you. So if I come out and even though I already had plans and everything, I'm like, you know, the. The everything is stacked against you. And when you personally see, you know, people come out and after five, six months, they are back in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm like, you know, this is.

[B]

I don't want this to be me. Until you decided you wanted to move back to Bosnia.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so you can. Can you travel to the United States if you wanted to?

[A]

Because I already signed all the paperwork. Right.

[B]

So you can't go back.

[A]

Self deportation. I signed all that, like 2018. Right. They called me. They called me to the immigration court to try to find my kid, because as a refugee, I came over there as a refugee and I could stay. Like Gypsy and his son. They stayed over there. They stayed. And I'm like, you know, I just don't want to, you know, I want to basically have a fresh start.

[B]

Right. Which is why you couldn't actually come to the US for this podcast, which is why we're meeting in Paris. Because I'm for work slash pleasure, and this is why it's happening here. And so you're back in Bosnia. You're. Now what do you do? Do you have a business?

[A]

Yes, basically in Arizona. I have a dispatch company. That's basically what I do in.

[B]

You run a. A. A company in Arizona? From Bosnia.

[A]

From Bosnia.

[B]

Dispatching what?

[A]

Trucks and men.

[B]

Ah.

[A]

And your.

[B]

Is your mom still in Boston?

[A]

My.

[B]

Sorry. In Arizona, yes, my mom. Wow. And you are. You just recently got married a year ago, right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

To a Tunisian.

[A]

Yeah. Beautiful.

[B]

Who told me before you started recording. And. And did you ever write a book or.

[A]

Yeah, in prison while I was in prison. That was actually one way to actually relive all of those memories and put it in paper. And that was. That was. That was one way to actually get rid of. Of my trauma and put it. Put it. Put it on the paper.

[B]

What is it called? The book.

[A]

Arizona Dream.

[B]

Arizona Dream. And it talks about everything that happened to you, including the heist?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Wow. Is it out? We can. People can buy it. Arizona Dream. Next time you have to bring me a signed copy, please. You do?

[A]

Yes, that I should have shown it to people.

[B]

We'll make sure to put it out so you. You can.

[A]

People can see it's in my bag.

[B]

That's great. And then thank you so much for coming to the Hidden Third, your story is so crazy. I think you're at my first heist interview.

[A]

Yes. Thank you very much for having me.

[B]

Of course. Is there anything about your journey? I know you've become super involved nowadays also with trying to get people warn people about gambling addiction. Right. And trying to get it, you know, raise awareness towards gambling.

[A]

Yes. That's one of the things. And as I mentioned earlier, a lot of people, as my story gets exposed out there, a lot of people contact me with, like, they need help, they need advice. And I give him, you know, advice from a personal experience. Yeah. And the first thing is, you know, if you really want to help yourself, there's two ways. Either reach the very bottom, like me, where you lose everything, including your freedom.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or you have to admit it to yourself that you have a problem, you need help and seek it from those closest to you.

[B]

Right.

[A]

If you don't have control. Okay. Control over your finances. Yeah. Your wife, your brother, your sister, your mother, your father, who you can trust. Here, please help me. Here's my credit card. Here's my cash. Please help.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Because as long as you keep it hidden, it's going to continue.

[A]

That's why they say it's a hidden. Hidden disease.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And one of the things that I wanna, That I would advise all of those people, based on my. From my experience, by losing everything, including my freedom, by losing all of those people who loved and cared about me, I. I can say I figured a way how to actually build a house. All of those people, all of those gamblers, they are looking for one. One thing. They're looking, as I mentioned in the case of Flaka and other gamblers, they are looking for a strategy to beat the house. Yes. They're looking for a way. They're looking for. For a way to be the house.

[B]

Yeah. To outsmart the casino. Yeah.

[A]

Yes. And after going through all of this, I figured it out. Don't gamble.

[B]

Yeah. That's the best way to beat them.

[A]

Yeah. Yes.

[B]

It's a great way of ending. Again, thank you so much, Anand. That was an excellent, really interesting conversation. Thank you for coming on the podcast.

[A]

Thank you very much for having me, Sam.