He Spent 20 Years in Prison. Then He Became YouTube’s Cultural Advisor - Wallo267

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Hidden Third

Episode: "He Spent 20 Years in Prison. Then He Became YouTube’s Cultural Advisor – Wallo267"

Host: Mariana van Zeller
Guest: Wallo267 (Wallace Peoples)
Date: July 1, 2026

---

Main Theme

In this episode of The Hidden Third, Mariana van Zeller sits down with Wallo267—a man who spent 20 years in prison and emerged as a leading voice in culture, personal growth, and digital media, now serving as YouTube’s cultural advisor. From his initial conviction at age 11 to building a massive online following from behind bars, Wallo shares the untold realities of growing up in North Philadelphia, the mechanics of underground street economies, life inside prison, and the mindset needed to escape cycles of crime and recidivism. Above all, he discusses transformation, forgiveness, and building a new identity.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Early Life and Environment (02:36–07:30)

• Growing up in North Philadelphia: Wallo describes poverty and lacking positive role models after his biological father disappeared (likely murdered, involved in drug dealing), and his stepfather was incarcerated for much of his childhood.
  • Quote: “Inside Philadelphia. Poverty is... the largest section in Philly I grew up... Just trying to find myself growing up.” (02:38, Wallo)
• Street Influence: Wallo and his brother were drawn into the “American dream” of street life, craving respect and success shown by drug dealers and criminals in their neighborhood.
  • Quote: “America’s respect—a successful criminal. They love Michael Coolio. They love Scarface... The bad guy—as long as you don’t get caught.” (06:27, Wallo)

Criminal Activity and Early Incarceration (10:52–17:28)

• Beginnings in Crime: Wallo’s first arrest was at age 11 for snatching jewelry, initiating a cycle of juvenile detention.
• Types of Crimes: Initially involved in theft, robberies, pickpocketing, boosting, and later some drug sales, drawn by fast money and immediate rewards.
• Insights on Failure: Repeated arrests highlighted that “not everyone is cut out for crime,” yet the rush and influence of environment kept him going.
  • Quote: “Early on, I ain’t realize that I wasn’t gonna be a good criminal, because I always used to get caught... You don’t know. You just—A lot of times when you in the crime game... we always wind up meeting each other in jail again.” (12:27, Wallo)

Life in Juvenile and Transition to Adult Prison (17:28–25:05)

• Juvenile Years: Spent five years, ages 11–17, cycling through detention centers.
• Lack of Structure: Wallo notes a childhood lacking guidance and accountability, further destabilized by absent paternal influence and financial hardship.
• Adult Sentencing: At 17, after a series of armed robberies, he’s sentenced to adult prison for 19–52 years.
  • “The most scariest day in prison is the day they let you go... Now you gotta be somebody you’ve never been in your life.” (00:32, Wallo)

Inside Prison: Adapting, Surviving, and Self-Transformation (25:05–39:41)

• Shock of Entry: Vividly recounts intake procedures, initial fear (sexual violence, death), and the psychological impact of prison environment.
  • Quote: “There’s a sound you hear your whole time... keys and handcuffs... It’s a soundtrack of prison.” (22:45, Wallo)
• Adaptation and Identity: At times resigned to institutional life, almost accepting a future as a perpetual inmate, until reaching a turning point through reading and self-education.
• Education as Salvation: Devours books (notably Act of Faith by Iyanla Vanzant and Damn Good Advice by George Lois) and TV programs (Anthony Bourdain, Travel Channel) that broadened his worldview and planted the seeds for transformative thinking.
  • Quote: “I spent more time incarcerated on this planet than I have been free... Reading. Reading. Watching Anthony Bourdain shows. Because I had to realize that the world was bigger than street culture.” (25:57, Wallo)

The Book of Life – Planning for Freedom (30:33–35:24)

• Setting Goals: Developed “The Book of Life," writing down specific, even mundane, dreams (from favorite foods to cities to visit). This obsessive list-making provided purpose and accountability after release.
  • Quote: "I would write everything down in the Book of Life... Because you and jail, you're just thinking about things that people probably don't think about.” (30:40, Wallo)
• Validation of Vision: After release, he visits nearly every city on his list, fulfilling dreams and affirming the power of intentional planning.

Embracing Technology – Social Media in Prison (36:19–41:19)

• Contraband Tech as a Lifeline: Wallo clandestinely acquires an iPod Touch and wireless hotspot in 2013, enabling access to Instagram and YouTube.
• Digital Curiosity: He interrogates new inmates about shifts in culture, technology, and trends—a “little journalist in you,” as Mariana notes—and amasses tens of thousands of followers before release.
  • Quote: “It was like an overload. Because I’m like, ‘Hold up—you mean I can ask this phone any question in the world?’ Is you kidding me?” (39:41, Wallo)
• Prison Journalism: Conducts informal interviews with newcomers to stay current with outside slang, music, tech, and social norms.

Family, Loss, and Forgiveness (41:39–47:27)

• Brother and Stepfather: Both incarcerated in the same system; eventually cellmates. Later, Wallo’s brother is killed (post-release), which Wallo learns about via prison TV.
  • Quote: “Revenge is God, you know, and you just... What about if you can live past that? What about if you can see that they’re going to live?” (44:19, Wallo)
• Forgiveness over Revenge: Promotes letting go of street ego and the cycle of vengeance, focusing on his brother’s children and his own future.
  • Quote: “Everybody always think it’s never gonna be me till it’s them... In the streets, revenge is God... But what about if you can live past that?” (24:51, 44:19, Wallo)
• On Ego: Identifies ego and feelings as drivers behind destructive cycles.

Reentry and New Identity (48:04–50:28)

• Scariest Day – Release: The terror of returning to society is “the scariest day in prison,” for your claim of change must become reality.
  • Quote: “The most scariest day in prison is the day they let you go. Because now you got to be somebody you never been in your life. You been telling your family you change... Change is an action; it’s not a thought.” (48:10, Wallo)
• Freedom and Opportunity: Receives a full gubernatorial pardon, ending parole. Sees a total mindset shift as the foundation for change.
  • Quote: “Once your mind level up, a lot of stuff—anything could be going on around you. If you’re not with it, you ain’t with it no more.” (49:37, Wallo)
• Social Media as Pathway: Leaves prison with a huge online following, sharing honest content, lessons learned, and serving as a role model for others.

Becoming a Thought Leader—Writing, Publishing, and Speaking (51:07–55:14)

• Books: Authored several works, including Letters to Freedom, The Mind of Wallow series, Armed with Good Intentions (NYT bestseller), and his latest Yes to You, No to Them (released June 2026, Hay House).
  • Quote: “Most of your books are sort of self-help books... Social media made me do it, it’s talking about how, yeah, everybody’s losing their mind because of social media.” (53:25, Wallo)
• Themes: Prioritizing self, breaking free from ego, forgiveness, discipline, and practical wisdom for resilience and post-prison success.
  • Notable Advice: “Never let your ego stop you from doing what your heart is encouraging you to do.” (54:49, Wallo)

Reflections on Crime, Media, and Social Change (55:31–58:34)

• Glorification of Criminals: Conversation on why street fame and media visibility shifted—today, even criminals seek attention and exposure.
  • Quote: “20 years ago, you wouldn’t have been able to get these interviews. Social media, the 15 seconds of fame—makes everybody want to be popular.” (57:49, Wallo)
• Self-Education as Liberation: Wallo reframes his prison time as time spent at “Yale, Princeton, Penn State”—prioritizing education over idleness.
  • Quote: “I wasn’t in jail, I was in Yale. I wasn’t in prison, I was in Princeton. I wasn’t in the state pen, I was in Penn State. I was educating myself.” (58:45, Wallo)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Change is an action; it’s not a thought.” (00:32, Wallo)
• “America’s respect—a successful criminal. ...They love the bad guy as long as you don’t get caught.” (06:27, Wallo)
• “There’s a sound you hear your whole time... keys and handcuffs... It’s a soundtrack of prison.” (22:45, Wallo)
• “I spent more time incarcerated on this planet than I have been free.” (25:57, Wallo)
• “I would write everything down in the Book of Life... It’s a roadmap.” (30:40, Wallo)
• “It was like—an overload. Because I’m like, ‘Hey, I can ask this phone any question in the world?’” (39:41, Wallo)
• “Never let your ego stop you from doing what your heart is encouraging you to do.” (54:49, Wallo)
• “I wasn’t in jail, I was in Yale... I was educating myself.” (58:45, Wallo)

---

Important Timestamps

• 00:32 — The hardest day of prison is release: Wallo reflects on what it actually means to change
• 02:38 — Early life in North Philadelphia: the allure of street culture and economics
• 06:27 — On America glorifying “successful criminals”
• 12:27 — Realization about being “bad at crime” and meeting peers repeatedly in jail
• 22:45 — Sensory experience: “soundtrack of prison”
• 25:57 — Institutional identity versus self-education and the turning point
• 30:40 — "Book of Life:” daily lists, future planning as survival
• 39:41 — Discovery and life-changing impact of contraband technology
• 44:19 — Forgiving his brother’s killer and rejecting “revenge” as guiding principle
• 48:10 — Fear of re-entry and the challenge of genuine change
• 54:49 — On ego: guiding principle in his new life
• 58:45 — “I wasn’t in jail, I was in Yale”: choosing self-education

---

Tone & Style

Wallo is vivid, direct, philosophical, and often humorous, deeply self-aware yet practical. The conversation is raw and honest, punctuated by moments of sadness, pride, and hope. Mariana is empathetic, curious, and unafraid to ask tough, personal questions, bringing out candid and memorable insights.

---

Summary

This wide-ranging, rich episode offers a ground-level exploration of America’s underground economy and incarceration pipeline through the lens of lived experience. Wallo267’s journey from street hustler to respected cultural advisor and best-selling author is a testament to the power of transformation, self-education, goal-setting, and the courage to leave toxic cycles behind. For anyone grappling with systems of crime, punishment, and redemption, this is essential listening.

---

Transcript

[A]

Before we start this week's episode, a quick note. This show exists because of people like you. If you want to help us keep making episodes like this, you can Support the Hidden Third on [e-mail] thehidden third. There you'll get access to bonus content, lots of behind the scenes, and much, much more. And if you haven't already, please follow or subscribe to the show wherever you're listening or watching and leave us a rating. A Review Comment it really helps us over here. Thank you so much.

[B]

The most scariest day in prison is the day they let you go. Because now you gotta be somebody you've never been in your life. Telling your family you change. You tell everybody, I change, I change. Change is an action is not a thought. And you never gotta really display the action of change yet. So it's crazy. So you walking out, you like? Oh shit. I hope I don't mess. So welcome.

[A]

Welcome to the podcast.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

So you got your first conviction at 11 years old. And then at 17, you were still a kid and you were sent to adult prison where you'd spend the next 20 years, sometimes in the same facility as your own brother and your own stepfather. But instead of breaking, you started paying attention. You interviewed nearly every new inmate that arrived from the outside world. You talked about music, technology, culture, slang, how everything was changing while you were gone. And you filled notebooks, studied, built a philosophy around one idea that your circumstances don't get to decide your outcome. You do. Then you got a hold of a contraband phone and you started posting. By the time you walked out of prison, you already had tens of thousands of followers. Today you're a cultural advisor at YouTube and one of the most listened to podcasters in the country. Wallow. 267, how you doing? How are you doing?

[B]

I'm loving life.

[A]

Good. 267. Tell me about that.

[B]

2, 6, 7 came from my prison number. What happened is when I went to go start my social media in jail, when I went to go start my Instagram, somebody had the name Wallow. Some Mexican guy, he had the name Wallow. And I couldn't use a name, so I just added 2, 6, 7 because it came from my prison number, DG 2670. And I, you know, I wanted to take it so I could remember where I come, where I came from and where I ain't going back to.

[A]

And what's your, what's your actual last name?

[B]

Peoples.

[A]

Peoples. But everybody knows you as well as. Okay, so tell me you grew up in. Outside. In Pennsylvania. Right outside of Philadelphia?

[B]

No, inside.

[A]

Inside Philadelphia.

[B]

Inside Philadelphia Poverty is, you know, the largest section in Philly I grew up with, which is north. Just trying to find that. Just trying to. I don't know, just trying to find myself growing up.

[A]

What were your parents doing?

[B]

My dad, I think my dad, he got. He turned up missing. My biological father turned up missing by the time I was 2.

[A]

Do you know what happened to him?

[B]

No. They say he got kidnapped, got murdered. They say a lot. My dad used to sell methamphetamines, so he was in the street culture and all that type of stuff.

[A]

And he was. Was he also called Wallow?

[B]

His name was Wallace. Wallace, that's my real name. Wallace. And.

[A]

And you became. I mean, it was sort of. People would recognize you as his son when you were.

[B]

No, not everybody because a lot of people didn't know until later on in life.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You know, I mean, because he. He disappeared when I was like two. So, you know, I would run into people that even streets are even prison. That'll be like, Wallace was your dad. And then they tell me stories and stuff like that.

[A]

Okay. And then. And your mom, you were saying?

[B]

My mom, she's nursing the nurse, working a day, stuff like that.

[A]

And you had a stepfather?

[B]

Hip now. My stepfather hit. He was in the streets. Um, but he always, like, no matter what, he always have had me around like whenever, you know, like spend time. He'd do stuff whenever he was free, so. But we used to, in the 80s, we used to go see him in prison all the time. Me and my brother Steve, my little brother Jalal, which is. That's his father, my mom, we used to always go see him.

[A]

But how old, how old was were you when he went to prison?

[B]

Around eight, nine, somewhere.

[A]

10. Were you, were you close to him then?

[B]

Yeah, that was. That was my.

[A]

Yeah, that was your dad?

[B]

It was. My dad was definitely, definitely close.

[A]

Do you remember what it felt like to you when he went to prison?

[B]

It was hurt. It was a little. I was hurt because he used to always drive me around in his car with him, play the music. Like. He introduced me to a lot of music. He had this car, we used to call it Brown Hornet. Little beat up like Brown car, but it had a loud system inside of there. So he used to drive me around all the time and I used to look forward to that. He'd drive me around, take me to other section of Philly, go to eat, all type of stuff. He's always. And I used to just Love to get in the car with him because he had played all the music.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

From rap, R B, just all the stuff that I. I still listen to today. And I think of him whenever I hear it, you know.

[A]

Why did he go to prison?

[B]

Him? Drug dealers. Selling drugs. He was always selling drugs or something.

[A]

And then what happened? And before then. Before he went to prison, you had. Was. What was your childhood like?

[B]

It was all right. You know, he was a provider. He always made sure he was cool. You know, once he went to prison, a little struggle came, you know, because my mom had to do it herself, you know, and then me and my brother was already, you know, we was. We was there looking out for my little brother. But finances wasn't always there. So, you know, my brother found another way in the streets.

[A]

That's your older brother?

[B]

My older brother, rest in peace, Steve. The one that got killed. And he was just doing his thing, figuring it out as the oldest brother. And he would. He would help financially as much as possible.

[A]

Wow. So you. He got into the business mainly to help the family in your. In your mind?

[B]

I believe. Not just to help the family. I think it was just a thing going on and people was doing it. And when you're young, you're impressionable, and you're trying to figure things out, you want to be now. You want to be accepted. So I think that's more than anything.

[A]

And then did you get involved in the business?

[B]

Oh, without a doubt. I got involved in the streets a little bit, you know, at the helm, because my mom came home, she dropped some Similac milk on her foot. One time we was upstairs listening to music when she came home from work, because we was living in an apartment and she. And it messed her foot up. So she was out of work for a while. So I jumped in and also helped, you know, with my brother and just in the street game. But I also was impressed about it. I was always impressed about street culture because everybody's. And, you know, especially in America, America's respect a successful criminal. They love. They love to. They love. They love Michael Coolio and they love Scarface. They love. They love the bad guy. As long as you don't get caught. So I've seen the admiration that people in my neighborhood will have when a drug dealer pull up and he got his nice car, his diamonds on his money. Everybody say hi to him. Don't nobody say hi to the janitor that's coming home from work, dirty clothes on. So I. I realized more than anything that America loved the successful criminal. You ask a judge. What's your favorite movie? Exit Ex FBI agent what's your favorite oh God. Goodfellas or Godfather? Scarface. How? Yeah, Tony Soprano was my guy.

[A]

You're right.

[B]

So it was like I'm always looking like I got to get into that. You know Anybody else stealing the American dream? Why shouldn't I?

[A]

So I've reported extensively on scams and cybercrime and I hate to say this, but AI has totally changed the game. Scams are smarter, malware is faster, and phishing emails look shockingly real. But the good news is that you don't need to be a tech expert to stay ahead of it. Here are the same steps I follow every day to protect myself online. Use strong, unique passwords. A reused password is really the easiest way for cybercriminals to break in. Enable two factor authentication whenever possible. It adds a simple but very powerful layer of protection. Be skeptical of anything urgent. AI is great at generating panic inducing messages. A 10 second pause can prevent a costly mistake. Keep your devices updated. Most attacks keep target people running old software with easy to exploit holes. And the most important use security that can keep up with AI threats. This is why I trust Webroot's total protection. Unlike free antivirus tools or older security programs, Webroot is built to counter modern AI driven attacks. It's fast, lightweight and designed to spot threats before they ever reach you. It literally doesn't get better than that. Webroot is a cloud based antivirus engineered to stay out of your way. It takes up 33 times less space than bulky competitors and scans six times faster. So instead of waiting around, you're getting instant powerful protection without the lag. And because the intelligence lives in the cloud, Webroot keeps your computer running light, fast and smooth, all while defending you in real time against malware, phishing, ransomware and other threats. Whether you're working, browsing or streaming, Webroot is the antivirus that works for you, not against you. Make the switch and feel the difference of truly fast modern antivirus protection. For a limited time, you can save 60% on Webroot when you go to webroot.com that's 60% off today, but only when you go to webroot.commona Absolutely. I I remember interviewing a guy. I've mentioned this on the podcast before, but interviewing a guy here in LA is he went by the name of Jackknife. I believe he was a pimp essentially. And when I asked him why he decided to become a pimp, he Said, look, this is the. All the best. The most most successful people. In my neighborhood, the most successful men were pimps. They were the ones bringing. Driving around in the luxury cars, bringing back money, giving people opportunities and clothing and whatnot. I mean, so that's, you know, maybe in your neighborhood, they wanted to become lawyers or doctors. In my neighborhood, all the kids wanted to become either drug dealers or pimps.

[B]

Yeah. And that's real. Yeah. So that's what I seen. And that's why I seen you getting respect. And they. They had the money.

[A]

They.

[B]

They was more successful than anybody that supposedly did it. Right. They follow the rules. It's like the people that's following the rules, struggling the most. So I was like, I need to be that, right?

[A]

I mean, people like your mom, even. I'm.

[B]

Yeah. Yep.

[A]

Yeah. And. And so you did. You. You started how much money? What were you selling and how much money?

[B]

No, it wasn't about selling our snatch jewelry, do robberies, pickpocket, whatever.

[A]

Oh, so you weren't selling?

[B]

No, I wasn't always selling. I sold some as Tom came, but I was more in, you know, just being out there, trying to figure it out.

[A]

But.

[B]

But then it got more sophisticated with boosting going to stores, you know, staying in stores, going to stores and hiding when they bought the clothes, once they close, you know, bag up a bunch of clothes, go out the exit door, all type of, you know, stuff like that. Not sell the clothes to a fence, somebody that will buy them half price.

[A]

Fencing.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, they buy them half price. You know, sometimes I walk into a jewelry store, you know, flash a wad of cash, might take like, you know, 5, 600, man. Like, no, not even that. Like 3, 400 fives and tens of ones wrapped up real bulky, might put a 50 on top of it. Like, yo, let me see that chain. They put the chain on me. One of my friends to come bust the door. Like, you walking and I run out, stuff like that. So it was always. I was always angling coming up, you know, you trying to figure it out, but you seeing like, man, all I need is a couple minutes and I could be in a better situation. I could eat better tonight, you know, I could look good tomorrow, you know, so that's what it was about.

[A]

And the first time you actually got in trouble, you were. You just turned 11, right?

[B]

Yeah, I just turned 11. I was 11 for a couple days, June 30, 1990. I turned 11 June 21.

[A]

And what happened?

[B]

Snatch him? Snatch some jury or something, you know what's crazy. Early on, I ain't realized that I wasn't going to be a good criminal because I always used to get caught, but I still didn't get it. It took me years to get it. Like, oh, this might not be Yagi. You might not be good at this. This looks like somebody to go and try to play football on your wide receiver. You never catch the pass. And I, I didn't know. You know, you don't know. You just. I. A lot, of, A lot of times when you in the crime game, a lot of dudes I was locked up with, from the juvenile to prison, we always wind up meeting each other in jail again. And we never had the conversation, like, we might not be good at this shit. You know, you'd be like, it might just not. But I just think it's the speed. Everybody loves speed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I ain't talking about just the drug speed. I'm talking about speed. Yeah, speed. And then now as you see life as it is now, it's like just everybody is programmed off speed due to social media, due to everything being fast due to the technology. So it's like back in the day, it was more speed, wasn't as popular as it is now. But if you, if you got, if you got a taste of speed to get some money, it was over. It was addiction just to be able to make a couple of dollars real quick and know that somebody worked for this shit probably three months.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Somebody was saying the other day here on the podcast too, that even when they got caught, they thought, oh, I got caught because I made this mistake. But next time I'm just not, not gonna make this mistake. So I'm not gonna get caught again.

[B]

You realize later on though, once you finally, finally retire and you let go of y, there's always a mistake somewhere. Because a mistake could be that just so happened. Police was riding down the block. So how you gonna block that mistake? You can't, you can't block that out. The next. You don't. Like just so happened somebody was off duty policing scene. It just. You just can't block that, you know? But like, I think you watch the movies and you see this stuff and it looks so easy. Crime through movies. It looks so. And if you're watching that mix what you're seeing, people that's actually doing something in your community and getting away, you like, man, I could do that, right?

[A]

Yeah. And so you were 11. That is so young. Yeah, crazy young. And. And you were sent to juvenile or

[B]

what happened for like a year. They sent me for a year because I got arrested like two times back to back in weeks. June 30th and then the next week I got arrested. So I go to this place called St. Michael School for Boys. It's like a Catholic school. No juvenile facility, but they had everything there. Three meals a day, snack at the end of the night, campus type like stuff you play baseball, football, hockey. They had everything. Volleyball, bowling, they had everything.

[A]

And you liked it?

[B]

Yeah, he's liked it back then, you know, I was there so long because I kept doing like time there because I'd go home, mess up. But yeah, I was, you know, I was doing my thing there. But it was soft. They were soft. Showing us it wasn't no hardcore stuff that make you want to change. Even when I was there, I go on like they take us on trips. They do my little stuff, steal a little stuff, you know, do little whatever. They take us to the mall. It was. It was crazy.

[A]

So you. Even when you were there, you were still stealing and you never stopped. And then. Okay, so then you went in and out for. For several years.

[B]

Yeah, I kept doing that. Then I got locked up. Juvenile. Then I got locked up, I kept going and I spent five years in juvenile facility.

[A]

So from when you were 11 until you were 17, you spent five years in. So you spent your entire teenage years in juvenile?

[B]

Juvenile, Yeah, I might go back right back. Yeah, I just. Was just used to it.

[A]

What was your. What was your mom saying at this point? Like every time you'd go back?

[B]

I think at the wild mom where it was like disappointment, but it's like. I think she just. He never was going to do what I was going to do.

[A]

And your brother, what was he doing at this point?

[B]

He was in the streets. He was in the streets? Yeah, he was doing his thing too.

[A]

Was he a better criminal? I guess he wasn't getting caught as much.

[B]

No, he wasn't getting caught as me. No, he didn't get. No, he didn't caught as much as me. But you know, he.

[A]

Why is that?

[B]

I think I was more reckless than him. I had a little too much heart.

[A]

Why was your main thing stealing and not dealing drugs like your brother?

[B]

I sold a large amount of drugs on the lower end. But he was. He wasn't really always a drug dealer too. He just did it. Sometimes he was dealing too. I guess it was quicker, you know, drugs take time. You got to be patient. You got to make. You got to get it, you got to fix it up. You Got to bag it up, you got to market it. You got to go do a robbery.

[A]

Right? It's immediate. Yeah. Immediate gratification.

[B]

We got to worry about distribution, marketing. You got to worry about none of this shit, you know, Even though it might be less money, but it'd be quicker sometimes it depends on what level you. Of robbing you is or whatever you're doing, you know, But I guess that's what it really was, you know, quick.

[A]

Obviously, you were so young at this point, but was there any part of you that was thinking, maybe I should change what I'm doing? And I know that there was an awakening that happened in prison.

[B]

You know what? You know what? You know what? You don't think about it. When I was early, I didn't think about it because you just like a kid, you having fun. You just could do what you want. You gotta think about this. I'm that young, and one thing that most kids always want to do, they want to do what they want. So I'm just out here living and moving and doing what I want it. You know, I might get rested here and there, but it was just like. Just to do what I want.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No structure around me. Could I. I don't respect structure.

[A]

And your stepfather at this point was still in prison, right? Yeah. So you had no real meaningful contact with him, and you didn't really have a father figure in your life at this moment either.

[B]

No, no, no.

[A]

And then what happened? And then something happened. What happened?

[B]

At 17, I caught two firearm violations and two. Two robberies. I robbed the kid, a Kentucky Fried Chicken, and I robbed a Hollywood video and.

[A]

With a gun?

[B]

Yeah, with a gun. But I was, you know, I was already doing. Getting away with a lot of stuff that's, you know, by then, like robberies. Like, you know, a lot of times I rob establishments and stuff like that.

[A]

And

[B]

I go rob the establishment, like, going there, like the daily rater, take their money to the. You know, they load it up, load some, Stay for a weekend. It depends. Sometimes it'll be 15,000, 20,000 seven. You know, it depends.

[A]

Did you wear a mask?

[B]

Sometimes I did, sometimes I didn't. Just had, like a jacket. That was crazy.

[A]

Did you go with somebody?

[B]

Sometimes I would, sometimes I didn't.

[A]

Sometimes you did it by yourself?

[B]

Yeah, by myself. To go in there with a gun and just pointed at the manager. Listen. And they just give me the money in a safe and go from there.

[A]

Did. And was there any moment that it got scary that somebody pulled out a gun from the Back of the counter or anything like that.

[B]

No, that's how crazy I was. I was so stupid. I wasn't even thinking about that. I just thought that I, you know, first on the draw, you know, make the law, you know, You, You. That's what I was thinking.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But I could have got killed in the process.

[A]

100. And you weren't also either. Thinking about what? This. That this money belonged to somebody. That somebody had worked hard for this money and that you.

[B]

I was thinking about like, it's insured, so it'd be okay. Huh. It's a store. As long as I don't hurt nobody and I get it about it, everybody be okay. And it's not day money, you know.

[A]

Yeah. And so then you got caught with two armed robberies.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And in that case, they didn't send you to juvie, they sent you to prison.

[B]

But send me to prison. I actually, I actually got caught the first time, did five years and came home and went right back and did

[A]

15 years and, and wait. And so the two different cases combined was.

[B]

No, it was two different cases, but it combined.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Gave me a total of 19 out to 52 years.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

One gave me 6 to 25, the other one gave me 13 and a half to 27.

[A]

It still seems so such a huge sentence for just armed. I mean, armed robbery is bad, obviously, and people can get killed. And I think you get more time

[B]

for armed robbery than other stuff where I'm from because it's like a possibility. What could have happened? It seemed like they charged you for like, what could have happened.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, so it was like, no, they don't play about that. And you know what I'm saying, I always had, I had a record. So.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Juvie record is like, oh, you just gotta get it.

[A]

And what was it like when you heard that sentencing? Were you expecting it?

[B]

No, you ain't never expecting that because you listen, you're looking at it like, man, I. I just did something for a couple seconds. I won't give me all that time for a couple seconds, you know, I mean, you think like, oh, I might get some probation. New. It's just different. It's different.

[A]

Were you, were you shocked? Were you emotional? Did you.

[B]

Yeah, I always was, you know, because it was a lot of time. But it was like, I think they, they prepared me for this type, all them juvenile senses. Year here, year and a half.

[A]

DSO did you read? Do you think you realize at the time that this was adult prison that it was going to be very different from your experience?

[B]

Without a doubt. I was scared to death. I was scared of shitless.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I thought I was going to get raped. All type of shit could happen in there, you know, you'd be scared going to this prison. It's not no TV stuff. This the real life. So you'd be like, oh, I was definitely scared.

[A]

Yeah. And so what was it like when you first entered?

[B]

Man, you know, it's like, it's a different smell when you get to the prison. But I think the one of the first. That first day I got to prison that I got sentenced and all that stuff, I get up to prison and I go to the intake. You go in there, dude tell you strip out, strip out, take your clothes off. He give you the stuff to make sure you ain't got no lights and all that stuff. You ass naked in front of a bunch of dudes, go in the room, you try to put your stuff on. And then they tell you to go to this room, lady, and they ask you a question. And I remember she asked me in the case of emergency, where you want your body sent? I'm like. And I. I breaked up. So I'm like, I'm scared to death. And I'm like, she peeped. And she. I guess she seen my paper, she seen that I was still a minor.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I got certified as adult, which mean they're gonna have me in different parts of the jail then. And she was like, oh, no, no. She tried to rephrase it because she peeped. I was still young, but she was like, no, some like somebody who somewhere like, you know, you get sick, anything will happen. Your family. She tried to rephrase it, but I already heard what she said. I'm like, oh, so now you already adding to what I think some could happen to me in here, you know, and you know, just that day. And then once I got through there, got my box, went upstairs and I walked through this long hallway. You just hear like there's a sound that you hear when you first go into prison. You hear it your whole time. And it's. And it's like keys and handcuffs. Because some guards just play with their cuffs all day. Things like a tactic to have your mind messed up. Because as soon as you hear them click, you think somebody getting cuffed to go into the hole. So you just. They just play with their cuffs all day. You hear him playing with the handcuffs. And then you just hear you. I'm just keys. And then you had door slamming. It's just the it's just a soundtrack of prison. And I was coming through this big hallway, and I seen these big dudes coming out the yard. He was. They had so many muscles, it was crazy. I was like, oh. You know. But they was taking us to the hole. I went to the hole that night. Me and another guy was in the cell that was still a juvenile. Like, I was both in there was in crying, man. Because, you know, you want to go home and you realize I might not be as tough as I thought I was, you know, but whoever think they gonna get caught, whoever think. Everybody always think it's never gonna be me till it's them. So it was a lot, you know.

[A]

Why did. Why were you sent to the hole that first day?

[B]

No, because.

[A]

Because you were young.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

It was a protection.

[B]

You gotta wait till you turn 18 and go to general population. So they separated me there. And then when I had to wait to go to the next jail, when I go to the next jail, they got his own section for dudes that ain't turned. Yeah, 18 yet.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And you realize maybe I wasn't as strong as I thought I was.

[B]

No, I knew I didn't real. I knew. I said, oh, this is different. I ain't really tough as I thought I was.

[A]

So you did cry?

[B]

Yeah, I cried a lot.

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

Yeah, I was crying. I just was scared, you know, because I ain't know. It's the unknown who sell. I got to go in. This is guy going to be, you know, so it's a lot. You think about a lot.

[A]

And then at what point did you start adapting? You know, I visited. I visited a jail the other day where some inmates are. It's actually a female jail. And some inmates have been there for like 11 years in jail, just waiting for their day in court and pretrial or people who have gone to trial but are still waiting.

[B]

So you went to jail, not a prison?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I've visited many prisons, but it just happened last week. Week I actually visited a jail. And there was at one point, there was like a row of women in handcuffs, I believe. And it was just. I was looking at their faces and thinking how at some point, you know, after spending years there, that you must start seeing that as your identity. Right. You must start thinking that this is who I am. This is. Right. And that must be so hard because,

[B]

yeah, I see, you know, me being in jail so long and doing so much time being in there. I spent more time incarcerated on this planet than I have been Free? Yeah, totally. And you gotta think, I'll be 47 in June. It's like you start just be like, you know, I had times in my mind I just was like, I ain't gonna never stop coming to jail. Probably I'm even going to. And I see the older dudes in there, old, 60, 70, the keep can't keep coming back. So I might be like that. I never thought that my life switched, you know, my alarm clock would come on and I want more. So, you know.

[A]

Yeah, it's like that self identification as this broken person is like, that's, I imagine, really hard to break through.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What. And what helped you while you were in there then?

[B]

Reading. Reading. Watching Anthony Bourdain shows. Because I had to realize that the world was bigger than street culture. You know, you realize that you just be like, oh, man, it just. It just be different. And you realize you just be like, oh, it's a big world out there waiting for me, you know, And I was in prison for being somebody that I wasn't trying to be down, trying to be accepted, trying to be cool. So I was willing to risk anything for that.

[A]

Did you used to read books before you went to prison or that just started in prison?

[B]

I really read the most when I was in prison. That's when I used to. That's when I came alive.

[A]

Yeah. Which. Which book stuck with you?

[B]

One of the best books I ever read. There's a couple of them. You got Iyanna Van Zant Acts a fief by her. You got Damn Good Advice by George Lois. Bunch of few other. But them the ones like.

[A]

And what were some of the lessons in those books?

[B]

One of the books was about marketing. George Lewis. George, Lois is the guy that they created a TV show Mad Men about. He was a top marketer back in the day. He was that guy. He was about marketing.

[A]

John Hamm in real life. Yeah.

[B]

Understanding marketing and understanding that the world has moved off marketing. You got God, then you got marketing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think that's what really helped me see. I want to be a marketer myself. And then Yana Van Zandt, she gave you these. She gave you. Every day was a daily read in there. So every day of the year was a read. It was a little book called the Purple, but I used to call it the Purple Book. And it was everything.

[A]

Were you selling drugs in prison at some point or you never did?

[B]

Not all the time. A little stuff here and there, but not because there's not a lot. You know, you did some amazing Moves, but not all the time. Not like a big time. You know, you got people that's really big time, but not like super big time. Guy.

[A]

How many prisons were you at? The first one was a high security prison.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, man. All of them is high security. You can't get out of them joints.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

You know, I mean.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I was in Dallas, Cool township, greatest for just like four or five.

[A]

And at some point you saw your brother and your stepfather.

[B]

Yeah, me and my brother. Me and my brother and my stepfather was in the same prison. We used to go visit my stepfather as a kid. Dallas. Dallas Penitentiary in Pennsylvania. And, you know, we used to go see him in the 80s and in 1998, me and my stepfather was cellmates. And in 2005, me and my brother would sell me there.

[A]

Wow. And what was that like? What was it like when your stepfather.

[B]

It was crazy. No, no. You know, he. He knew it was coming because I always was getting caught up, so he knew I was being a system.

[A]

Was he mad at you?

[B]

I ain't gonna say he was mad at me. He was like, damn. He was a little disappointed that he couldn't show up more enough to prevent it from happening, you know, because when you're a man, you take the, you take the hit and I mean, he looking at me like. So it was, it was crazy.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know what the percentage is, but I'm. I, I think it's quite high. Of the people, of the children of incarcerated people who end up in prison as well, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, and did you, did you guys. So you were cellmates with them. Wow. Where is he now?

[B]

He's dead.

[A]

Did he die in prison?

[B]

He died of cancer years ago.

[A]

So eventually. Did he leave prison before you did? So you, you never got to see him outside?

[B]

No.

[A]

Was he a good cellmate? Was he a good person to have in prison?

[B]

Yeah, of course. He had to sell me.

[A]

Did he teach you a thing of.

[B]

We used to argue sometimes because he used to be like, you know, tell me what to do. You ran. But I'm a little older now, so it was a little different, but it was, it was, it was good to see him be around him.

[A]

Okay, so tell me about the book of life.

[B]

The book of life, the bol is where you write everything down. It's a list. Most people out here get up every morning and they operate often not knowing. They don't know what they're going to do. They don't know what the plans is. They don't know what the end game is, you know, you got a person that might get up every day. And the end game is just to pay the bills. The end game might not be, let me get up every day and figure out not just how to pay these bills.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How to pay these bills, how to get a better life, how to get a better home, how to get away from this job I got. That's what the Book of life is about. It's a roadmap. It's the list. And I think a lot of people out here operating without no list. So they don't know, Like, I think. I think you just need, like. And I will write everything down in the Book of Life. The type of peanut butter and jelly I wanted when I got home, you know, how many sweatpants I want every. I just write all type of stuff down. Because you and jail, you're just thinking about things that people probably don't think about. Everyday person ain't got time to worry about. They don't. They out here living. So it's stuff that they could. They take it for granted. That's special to me. Like a raisin bagel. And you know, certain things it was like, I'm looking at like, dang, I can't wait to get this. Get some cream. It was just a bunch of stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That was very important to my journey when I got out because I had a roadmap of what I wanted to do, where I wanted to go at. Like, I remember I had a wrote down. I wrote down every city I wanted to go to in America. Right. And I wrote it down. And it's only. It was over 20, 30 cities. 30 something. And there's only two cities I didn't go to.

[A]

Really? Which ones are they?

[B]

Albuquerque, N.M. and hallelujah in Hawaii.

[A]

And wait. And until you went and you. When you were writing this, how many cities had you been until then?

[B]

I only been in Pennsylvania. Like, Pennsylvania and probably Jersey. Like, I ain't going to. I ain't going nowhere.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Because I'm in prison.

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

So. So I had. I'm talking about. I ain't had that many. So I'm sitting there and I'm like, I'm just writing them down. I remember writing it down. I remember looking at. It's long ago. And I was like, damn, I gotta go to Albuquerque. I gotta. But I went to everywhere from. And I had yo. And I was shocked because I used to watch Anthony Bourdain. I used to see him go around the world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I also Used to see him go to some. Go to some great places in America. And I used to. Travel channel. I used to watch the Travel Channel. They had this thing on the trailer channel. They'd be like, the top. The top 100.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Best fast food restaurants.

[A]

Right. Or barbecue joints.

[B]

And I watched. I'd be like. And I just see how they show you the city, the backdrop. And I'd be like, damn. So. So my whole thing was like, I want to go to these towns. So I wrote all these cities down, talking about Boston, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Charlotte, Cincinnati, Los Angeles, Orlando, Orlando, Tampa, Miami, Atlanta, Nashville.

[A]

You're doing Austin, Texas. You're doing geographically.

[B]

Yeah. Austin, Texas. New Orleans. Well, Dallas, Texas. Houston, Texas.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

San Diego, San Francisco, Oakland, Seattle, Portland.

[A]

Still haven't said. Los Angeles.

[B]

Oklahoma City, Louisiana. I hit everywhere. Yeah. So I've been everywhere multiple times. So it's like.

[A]

That's amazing. That's so cool.

[B]

Nine years I've been anywhere. So it's like, you got to think about it. The last couple of days, I've been to. I've been to D.C. miami, here. Tomorrow I'm going to Phoenix.

[A]

Right. And just so we, our viewers know, you just arrived this morning from D.C. d.C.

[B]

I just arrived. No, I just arrived from Maryland. I mean, I just arrived from Miami.

[A]

Miami, sorry, you were in D.C. miami, and then you came straight here.

[B]

And then tomorrow I'm going to Scottsdale, Phoenix.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Then the next day I'm going to Vegas.

[A]

That's incredible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you're living the life you dreamt of when you were in prison, I guess. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, we had a guest called Michael Santos who did 20 years in prison for cocaine trafficking. And he's. He's known as a prison professor. He has a organization he helps with the inmates and anti recidivism. He's an amazing guy. But one of the things he says is like, everybody teaches you when you. First thing you learn when you go to prison, or they tell you when you go to prison is forget about the outside life. Concentrate on what's inside. And he says that is the exact opposite of what you should do. You should forget about the life inside and focus on what's outside and what your plan is for when you leave. And that's exactly what you were doing.

[B]

You got to have. You got to have a master plan. You got to read, you got to know. Because some people, some people, like, even with me, it's a mix with me, because I would go to prison, I forget anything on the outside, meaning I'll Just be focused on doing my time, give me a job, give me a hustle inside the jail, whatever it may be, and just focusing on doing my time. So, you know, I don't be. I don't think I wasn't entitled. Thought anybody owe me nothing to see me. So I was just like, this is what I'm on.

[A]

Yeah, but at the same time, you're writing the book of life.

[B]

At the same time I was writing my stuff too, though, like. Because I wasn't. I was looking at it from Aspect like, I don't need nobody. I got my books, I got my stuff. I mean, because I was, you know, I think that was anything watching that Travel Channel, man, I tell you, it had you. Had you looking at life like, damn, all them places there you're looking at. You just sitting there looking at a chili dog that they got at this one spot in Oregon. You like, damn. You know, just. I don't know, you're just looking at anything.

[A]

And then you started interviewing new inmates that were coming in.

[B]

Yeah. By way of. If you, my cellmate, you come out, just ask you. It was a personal interrogation. I would actually, hey, yeah, what's this? What's that? Yeah, what are they doing out there? And people would just tell me stuff.

[A]

Yeah. Because you were in there from 97 till 2017. Right. So that's a long time. And a lot changed during what was some of the things you remember learning.

[B]

1896.

[A]

96.

[B]

And I came out like eight months out of between that and went right back. Crazy about prison is like, when you go into prison, you stuck in a time that don't exist no more. And unless you get some technology like I did, you'll be lost, coming back out into the free world, trying to figure a lot of life. And you just like, damn, man. Like, I thought about like, all the stuff that I learned immediately when I got that cell phone and all that. Because I was like, hey, man, it was so much that I wouldn't knew.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because, you know, this just was in the books or whatever you. But you can't. It's a whole different world when you got that. You, you know, you go from going to jail using a regular phone and a beeper to now people walking around with computers in their pocket.

[A]

Yeah, totally.

[B]

It's a different world. That's a different world.

[A]

Yeah. We had Shaka Senghor. Do you know Shaka?

[B]

Yeah, I know Shaka.

[A]

Yeah, he was here a couple of weeks ago and he was explaining how he. When he got out the world Was so different. And one of the things he remembers is like he was texting with his friend and they were making a plan, and then the friend wrote back K, just K. And he was like, who's K? K is okay. The person replied and he was like, who the fuck is K? Could not lol. None of these things terms made sense to him.

[B]

That's crazy.

[A]

Yeah. And so it was the same to you, But I guess, no, it wasn't

[B]

the same for me. When I got it, I was technology,

[A]

of course, because I loved it, Man,

[B]

I used to dream about right. Once I got the phones.

[A]

So wait, we're talking about smuggled phones, right? Which a lot of people have in prison. They're not cheap to get, but it

[B]

depends how you get it. Yeah, but that. That changed my life.

[A]

And was it. What was your first. The first one you got?

[B]

Ipod Touch with a wireless hotspot.

[A]

Huh.

[B]

We're talking about 2013.

[A]

How did you get the wireless connected?

[B]

No, it just was a wireless hotspot. It was a clear. You remember the company? It was a company called Clear.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They had these small things. They was like this small.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And it was wireless hotspot.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It was a clear. Yeah, it was thin. I don't know if you remember it was thin. If you Google, you can see it was like this. Like this. And it was like this thick, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And put it right next to your window. It was on. So I had that and I. And ipod Touch, I went to. I couldn't believe it.

[A]

Yeah, we used to travel sometimes around the world with these little hotspots.

[B]

That's what I'm saying.

[A]

Yeah, they were great.

[B]

Yeah, it was.

[A]

They don't really use them anymore.

[B]

They don't have them no more, but it was anything.

[A]

Yeah, it was great. Okay, so you had that. You bought that and the idea.

[B]

I had that and it was. My homeboy gave it to me, and

[A]

it was like lifechanging, man.

[B]

I couldn't believe it.

[A]

H.

[B]

I couldn't believe that the world went so far ahead because you just be in there doing your time. You think you going to go home and just anything regular is whatever. And man, you get left. So, you know, that was everything, though.

[A]

So this is 2013. You said it was. Do you. What did. What did. What did you do? Did you create a. I created my Instagram. Instagram immediately. That was one of the first things you did.

[B]

Created my Instagram. And I just used to be online. I used to be watching a lot of YouTube and just doing a lot of research, writing stuff down in the book of life. Because I couldn't believe. It was like. It was like an overload. Because I'm like, hold up. You mean I can ask this phone any question in the world? Is you kidding me? So I think that was important.

[A]

That's great.

[B]

I said, man, it's over. After that. Yeah. This changed the game of life.

[A]

Yeah. And so you. That's the. Yeah, you can ask it anything. You're right. And. And the Instagram profile that you started back then is the same one you're using today. Right. Which is. Which is wallow 267. 267.

[B]

Great. And.

[A]

And then you started asking people questions about their life on the outside. And. And you were also. You're mainly interested also in culture or what was like, some of the things that you were interested in asking people?

[B]

I would ask people about what they was doing out there was what it looked like it was, you know, stuff like that. And because I was just intrigued, like, yo, life changed so much, you know, And I was fascinated with what they was doing. And everybody was getting on the plane. How did you do it? How did you pay for it? How much was it? What did you eat? Could you stay?

[A]

So there's a little journalist in you.

[B]

Yeah, I guess. Yeah. I was definitely asking them all type because I was just, like, fascinated. I was intrigued by, like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I would dig and just keep asking. Accident. All right, all right. So what did you, you know, what did you wear? What did you.

[A]

Did you ever get caught?

[B]

Well, yeah, I got caught with any

[A]

of your phones or iPads, right?

[B]

Yeah, I got caught with the cell phones. They caught me with a bunch of phones and ipods and what would happen in that situation. I wound up getting street charge in prison. They gave me a street charge, added some more time to my sentence, but he ran it inside of my sentence.

[A]

Hmm.

[B]

Which was a little different, but super

[A]

easy to get a new one.

[B]

Yeah. No, I was locked up in the hole and he shipped me out of the prison, sent me to another prison where I couldn't get nothing.

[A]

Oh, shit.

[B]

And I think it was, like, for me, all I could think about was the phones. I couldn't wait. I was like, can't wait to get home to give me a phone again because there's so much information in there. I was just. It was information for me.

[A]

And what was it like when you. When you realized that you were in the same prison as your brother?

[B]

I remember when he first came and I heard he was coming, and I Was waiting for him come out the ID room. And it was. It was a good energy to see my brother in there, you know what I mean? Just to seem not in prison, but the scene, to be able to be with him if we got to be here, because he was at a different prison than me, so I think that was. That was everything.

[A]

Had he spent time in prison before? A lot of time?

[B]

No, that was like his first time in prison.

[A]

And he was in there for drugs? For dealing drugs?

[B]

No, he was in there for robbery.

[A]

Oh, also for robbery.

[B]

And. And it just was like. It was difficult calling home sometimes. My grandma and being we here together, sharing the phone, like, yo, wow, this is weird.

[A]

What would she say?

[B]

You should hear the sadness in her voice, you know? But you just like, damn, you know, it was rough.

[A]

Were you close to your grandma, too?

[B]

Yeah, I'm still on. She died. She'd be 92 this year.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah. That's my girl.

[A]

She must be super proud of you now.

[B]

Oh, yeah, now. Yeah. That was my whole fear of her not being here when I get home and not being able to be living to see me do right. And, you know, I made it home, you know, for her to still be here.

[A]

And then who left? So did you. He leave prison before you did or even left?

[B]

He left way earlier than me, like 2009 or something like that.

[A]

And then what happened to him?

[B]

He wound up getting shot.

[A]

Tell me about that.

[B]

And he got shot, and my grandma actually heard the gunshots. She come to the door. He ran to the house, and he died in the arms. He fell in the arms and passed, and it was crazy.

[A]

And how did you hear about it,

[B]

you know, on the news first? I didn't know. I didn't know. I seen it on the news, but they didn't say the name. They just say, a man. But I see them, I see Nanny House, and I'm like, it was crazy.

[A]

Nanny's your grandma?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you were watching the news in prison. In prison, and you realized that this was a house that you recognized?

[B]

When I seen it, I got on the phone and I realized it was

[A]

real, that it was your death.

[B]

Yeah, brother.

[A]

Yeah. And what was that like for you?

[B]

It was, man. It was. It was. It was painful pain that I never felt before. It was just like, damn, you know, me and him, we was always together, grew up together, same house. It was just crazy.

[A]

Yeah. So you guys were super close. How did he die? He was shot.

[B]

I don't know. You don't know, but it was crazy. And you know, you just. You never expected that.

[A]

Did you think of revenge at the time?

[B]

No, I forgave my brother's killer immediately. Not me, not immediately, but, you know, because I had to live for his kids see and see in the streets. Revenge is God, you know, and you just. But what about if you can live past that? What about if you can see that they're going to live? You know, because I understood that anything could happen. Revenge don't always go your way, you know?

[A]

When did you realize that just being

[B]

in prison for a long time and thinking a lot, reading a lot, you see life differently. You start to see things you've never seen before. So I think that was important, you know, to just focus on tomorrow.

[A]

Yeah. Why. Why do you think that is that revenge is so common? Like why people are so stuck in. In revenge and don't realize that you'll be set free much faster if you just forgive.

[B]

Is an ego game. Ego is king in the streets too. Your ego, your pride. Like, you know what I realized about life as me paying attention to a lot of these humans from prison, the free world. Everybody is leading with the ego or their feelings. And a lot of times the ego and feelings are supersede logic because you know, nobody want to feel like a victim. And then even if you feel like a victim, the ego ahead you believe and you got attacked. So you got to strike back. But even just an average conversations everybody back is a battle, man. Everything's a battle out here, man. And it's like you can't even have a conversation with a person. Whereas though they even think you attacked in them, you're trying to belittle them. It's always some feelings of ego. That's. That's something I'd just be studying like crazy. Just the ego and feelings and the, the ego and feelings is relation is. Is relationship deaths. And it's also resentment builders because everybody out here is eagled up. Everybody is all about eat me how I' ma feel. It's weird. I don't even be knowing. I just like this shit crazy. But that's, that's. That's something. But the revenge thing is a. It's an ego game though.

[A]

You such a. So much of your message nowadays is that idea of forgiveness instead of revenge. How do you think that, that you're the people, the crew that you used to hang out with. How have they received that message?

[B]

I don't know and I don't care. I really don't care about how people receive something that I'm Doing decisions that I'm making for myself. It don't affect you. Ain't got nothing to do with you. So, you know, I just focus on how I care about it, but I feel about it because people, you know, we live in a time where people just want to have an opinion, to have it. And a lot of times people. People not going against it because it's something that they truly feel. They just going against it. Just to be going against something.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

Just to try to create some type of dialogue or get some attention on them or so I don't know that shit be. It'd be crazy. But I don't pay no attention.

[A]

So you were inside, and you realized that holding on to that sort of anger and revenge, thoughts of revenge, wasn't going to get you anywhere. And. And you decided you wanted to. Did you ever know then who this person was? The identity of the killer?

[B]

In some way?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, but it wasn't important. Living from living for my brother, kids, and my family was more important than all this.

[A]

What. What was it like when you finally. The first day you were out of prison?

[B]

It was scary. The most scariest day in prison is the day they let you go. Because now you got to be somebody you never been in your life. You've been telling your family you change. You tell everybody. I change. I change is the action is not a thought. And you never got to really display the action of change yet. So it's crazy. So you walking out, you like, oh, I hope I don't mess up. And that's scary.

[A]

And you're not totally free, right? You're still. Are you?

[B]

Are you?

[A]

I've heard you say that you're not totally free yet.

[B]

No, I'm free. I'm free now.

[A]

Oh, you are?

[B]

I was on parole to 2048, but now I'm off.

[A]

Oh, what happened?

[B]

The governor granted me a pardon.

[A]

Nice. When?

[B]

Two years ago. Going on two years now.

[A]

Oh, congratulations. Because initially you were out, but on parole until 2048. Wow. That's amazing. What was it? Why do you think he did that?

[B]

Changed my life. You know, I was an example. Exchange. So, you know, you allow me to get off.

[A]

You know, that's pretty good. And you. So you. You walked out of prison that day, and you realized it was an enormous responsibility on your shoulders because now you actually had to change. Right. And you, I'm assuming where you. You were, I mean, as. As confident as you could be about that change. Like you were going back to living where you used to live, surrounded by the same people. Same. Yeah, well, how hard was it to change then?

[B]

It wasn't because my mind leveled up. See, once your mind level up, a lot of stuff, anything could be going on around you. If you're not with it, you ain't with it no more. If you see the world in a different way, it don't matter what world that you in. If you see this world differently than what everybody else is seeing, that ain't gonna matter. You're not, it's not gonna phase you, what everybody else is doing. You know what I'm saying? Like, if you go through LA and just because you driving through la, you see crime outside of your car window. But would you want to be a criminal now? No. Because you already got your world designed for you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So once I redesigned my world, it stop me. I, I, I didn't see that type of, I didn't see like, oh, I want to do this. I didn't have them thoughts no more. So it was like, it is what it is.

[A]

Yeah. It's all about how your mentality.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And how you see yourself and we. And I also forgot to mention that at this point, you already had. You left prison with like 50,000 or more.

[B]

I forget how many altogether followers on Instagram. Followers. Because I used to be working as.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When I just started putting my thing down.

[A]

What were you, what are you posting?

[B]

Posting, like a lot of stuff like, you know, you know, posting My Book of Life, telling them what I'm gonna do. Posting stuff on my grandma middle room where I was living, about just, you know, just encouraging people, sharing thoughts, my thoughts with them and ideals and just every day pushing it, you know, because I knew, I knew it was something, I knew it was something coming my way, you know, and I just wanted to share my. Because I knew that I wanted to be the help that I wanted when I was in prison.

[A]

That you didn't have.

[B]

Yeah, I never had, you know, so I wanted to be that.

[A]

And then what happened when you left prison?

[B]

Then I became that. I became, I wanted to be great and I became great and special and for me, just doing my thing and not caring about, you know, people, views or outlooks or how they may see me and judge me. Don't mean.

[A]

When did you write your first book?

[B]

The first one I wrote was Letters to Freedom. I wrote it in prison.

[A]

Huh.

[B]

It was like a novella, you know, like, and I just wrote, you know, novella, lymph, and I just wrote it like, you know, just had Writing a letter to freedom. Freedom is Freedom. Freedom is my girlfriend. Like I'm writing a letter to freedom. The idea of it. And then when I came home I did and that was published, like ebook stuff, but I took it.

[A]

That's great. Why?

[B]

I don't know. I wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't great. Oh, I ain't thinking what people thought it was. But I didn't think. Not everybody did. I think I was, I was a little more critical of it, but it wasn't long enough. But whatever. Until later on I came out and, and when I was home, I think 2020, I had took the videos from IG post and I, you know, somebody transcribe them right. When they transcribed them, turned them into books. Three different books, that many words. I would take each, each video and just turn into a page and did three books. The Mind of Wallow. 1, 2 and 3. And then I came over.

[A]

They're called the Mind of Wallow.

[B]

Yeah, the mind of Wallow. 1, 2, 3. I came out with another book in 2000, 2024. You know, I mean, all with good intentions. Instant New York Times bestseller. And then after that.

[A]

Wait, which one was that one?

[B]

Armed with good Attentions. Instant New York Time bestseller. Then after that this year when I started a publishing company called Nanny's House Publishing. And I had a lot of stuff that I worked with. Work, work been working on over the years and I dropped three books in one day independently.

[A]

Oh wow.

[B]

Yeah, I drive them. Social media made me do it in three buckets. Okay, books I dropped and.

[A]

Okay, wait, them. Who's them?

[B]

It them. It's just fuck, fuck anything outside of you that's not and value to you and what's.

[A]

What are the three buckets?

[B]

Three Buckets is about how to prioritize your life. We're going to first bucket. The most important. We're going to second, but we'll go to third. But we're gonna be weighted off.

[A]

So most of your books are sort of self help books or books.

[B]

Social media made me do it. It's talking about how, yeah, everybody's losing their mind because of social media. You know, I mean how the kids is just like people don't even know their kids. It's a deep book. And I dropped them last month and then June, June 16th. Yes to you, no to them.

[A]

Yes to you, no to them. And what's that about?

[B]

This book is about finally saying yes to you. You know, the discipline of saying, knowing the freedom that follows a lot of people out here and you know, the way I'VE done this book. This book was done in a different way because a lot of people out here is just not choosing themselves, you know, I mean, they waiting for everybody else. And I did it like more than like sort of like social media.

[A]

Oh yeah. Big lettering and graphics page.

[B]

And then, you know, I mean, different stuff.

[A]

Yeah. So that says what? Stop waiting.

[B]

Look at it.

[A]

Yeah. Stop waiting for them. Start your movement. Yeah. Stop befriending people who talk about their friends. What do you mean? Why would you talk about my friends all the time?

[B]

Not in a bad way.

[A]

Oh, no, definitely.

[B]

That's what I'm talking about.

[A]

Oh, got it.

[B]

You see what I'm saying? You talking about your. Like, why would I befriend you if you talk about your friends badly?

[A]

Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

[B]

Like people, you know, it's a lot out there and this book is filled with just a lot of different jewels.

[A]

I love this one. Never let your ego stop you from doing what your heart is encouraging you to do. That's great.

[B]

The ego.

[A]

The ego again.

[B]

I keep telling you about that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I study that shit. I study it in people. I study it with paying attention to people. I'll be just giving out tests and just seeing people ego the fuck out because that's all everybody operating off is the ego and they personal. It's like how I'm be seen or what I think. And it'd be. And it'd be proven. It'll fuck you up. And it had you wrong.

[A]

Yeah. It actually. It's detrimental for you. It actually puts you in a worse position many times because you make bad decisions according to your ego ego.

[B]

People be ego monsters and don't know it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it's like, I want to be seen. I need to be. Come on. Like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's crazy.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And so are you doing a book tour right now? You're going?

[B]

No, no, it's come out June 16th. I actually got a book deal with House. Same publisher as Mel Robbins. What happened is I went on a show.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And at that show hugged me up with, you know, legendary book agent Mark Gerald. And I kind of a. He became my agent. Hey, House, my publisher, right? That's great. Yes. You know, to them there's a bunch of different audiences out there for different point of views. You know, like, look at you. You talking about you interview all type. Like that picture right there. I just gotta say something. That picture right there is on my mind the whole time. I can't.

[A]

I am so sorry. It's a Picture of me with a guy with a very scary mask.

[B]

No, that guy.

[A]

I'm holding a gun. Is it this one?

[B]

No. Yeah.

[A]

No.

[B]

What I like. No, it don't scare me. But one of my favorite movies of all time is Heat. And it remind me, you remember they had the masses on the heat. So I'm like, is that from Heat? Is she in there? Or like. Or you just was somewhere with a. Who is guy? Who is this guy?

[A]

So he's the guy who was selling. He sells. He makes and sells ghost guns. Ghost guns are. Oh, unserialized guns. So they're easy.

[B]

Oh, he really rough. Thought that was a movie.

[A]

Young, young kid. Not. Not at all. I mean, super young. And he.

[B]

What country is there?

[A]

That's here. I mean, that's here in California, actually. It's like, not far. I mean, a couple of hours from.

[B]

Do you be afraid going to interview these people?

[A]

Are you gonna play the. Are you gonna play the journalist?

[B]

I love it. Are you afraid?

[A]

Not really. You know, we spend a lot of time getting these people to agree to be interviewed. So when we finally go to interview them, I feel pretty. Pretty safe. There's all these ground rules. You know, we can't obviously disclose their identity or location, but we've. We follow them. And usually I'm not very scared beforehand. Yeah, I mean, it's. I mean, it's. You know, it would have been like interviewing you before you went to prison.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You would either say yes or no. But I don't think if you'd say yes and I showed up with a camera and you'd have a mask and. And distorted your voice and wouldn't say your location and genuinely approached you with curiosity. I want to find out why you do what you do and asking questions about your life. A lot of the people that I interview, they've don't. They've never been asked questions about their life. Nobody's been interested in knowing anything about them.

[B]

You know what's crazy? 20 years ago, you wouldn't have been able to get these interviews.

[A]

Yeah. In many ways. Social media and social media, the 15 minute, 15 seconds of fame. Right.

[B]

Make everybody want to be popular with criminals. Never wanted to be popular properly.

[A]

Yeah. I think Scarface also helps many years ago because I get that all the time. Like, people are obsessed with Scarface and. And think that by being on television they'll be a Scarface for a little bit.

[B]

You know, I think it's just a different generation of criminals.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

People was hiding and all that stuff, you know, like some of the cartel dudes, they go so far to get a face surgery so you won't recognize them. So it's different. I understand.

[A]

Yep. It's very, very true. Yeah. So that's why. Just one more thing. At one point, you say, I wasn't in jail. I was in Yale. I wasn't in prison. I was in prison.

[B]

I wasn't in the state pen.

[A]

Can you say from the start, I

[B]

wasn't in jail, I was in Yale. I wasn't in prison. I was in Princeton. I wasn't in the state pen. I was in Penn State. And I'm saying it to say I was in the. Educating myself. I wasn't just in there. I wasn't there educating myself. And that's what it's all about. Educate, you know, yourself and just going to the next level. So I took my time and to really educate myself and go. Go to the next level instead of just sitting there doing time.

[A]

Yeah. And that is. Yeah. That's a reason for your success nowadays, too. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

And everybody go buy the book.