Jeffrey Epstein Survivor | The Hidden Third with Mariana van Zeller

Summary

Podcast Summary: Jeffrey Epstein Survivor | The Hidden Third with Mariana van Zeller

Date: December 3, 2025
Host: Mariana van Zeller
Guest: Lisa Phillips (Epstein survivor, former model, advocate)

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Overview

This episode of The Hidden Third dives deeply into the world of Jeffrey Epstein through the lived experience of survivor Lisa Phillips. Mariana van Zeller and Lisa discuss Lisa’s journey—from her international upbringing and entry into modeling, to her harrowing entanglement with Epstein’s predatory network, the profound impact on her life, and her decision to advocate for truth, justice, and survivor empowerment. The episode explores the nuances of coercion, grooming, and the complex aftermath of sexual abuse within powerful, secretive circles.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Lisa’s Background and Career Aspirations

• [01:32-05:06] Lisa describes her supportive, multicultural upbringing, her early ambition to become a model and actress, and her hard-earned entry into top agencies.
  • Notable: She began modeling at 16, moved cross-continents, and worked seriously to become a model in New York.

Harassment and Exploitation in Entertainment

• [05:43-08:48] Lisa recounts a disturbing encounter with director Oliver Stone during a film shoot and how power dynamics led to both punishment and strange forms of “compensation.”

  “He grabbed me on my butt... I immediately like pushed him away from me and I was like, stop.” (Lisa, 06:04)

• The event set the stage for her understanding of abuse in the industry, but she notes that Epstein’s methods were even more insidious.

The Epstein Encounter: Grooming and Assault

• [09:09-22:50] Lisa is introduced to Epstein via another model while on a magazine shoot in the Caribbean. She describes being drawn to Epstein’s charisma and mentor-like persona.

  “He wasn't like other men. He was a mentor.” (Lisa, 19:18)

• Epstein’s “grooming” was gradual—deep personal interest, emotional validation, sophisticated manipulation—all designed to create trust and compliance.
• Lisa details the moment she was coerced into a massage (Epstein's euphemism for sexual assault), alongside the model who brought her, and the confusion and shame that followed.

The Aftermath: Trauma and Survival

• [22:55-28:34] Lisa discusses the psychological fallout: depression, shame, detachment, and numbing through alcohol and drugs. She lost trust in others and herself, and saw a shift in her professional and personal life.

  “There's a distinct difference between someone who is assaulted by a stranger... and a manipulator, a groomer.” (Lisa, 24:19)

Entrapment and Coercion Back into Epstein’s Orbit

• [28:34-34:49] Despite wanting to escape, Lisa was persistently contacted by Epstein’s assistants, then by Epstein himself, who offered career advancement as leverage—demonstrating the coercive power of predators.

  “He had secretaries that would call the girls... They would call all the time to see when you could go back and meet with him.” (Lisa, 28:34)

Modeling Industry and International Trafficking

• [31:26-34:49] Lisa sheds light on how modeling agencies, visa arrangements, and powerful men collaborated with Epstein and his associates to funnel young, often vulnerable women (especially from Eastern Europe) to his network.

  “The modeling agency with John, Luc Brunel, Karen’s, you know, the Fords... were in cahoots.” (Lisa, 31:26)

The Reality of Sex Trafficking and Abuse Mechanisms

• [35:24-45:46] Lisa explains the spectrum of abuse among various survivor groups (teens in Florida, European models, ambitious New Yorkers), the structures Epstein used (mentorship, career promises), and the normalization that keeps victims silent.

  “He would train me how to be with men... but you don't have to have sex with them.” (Lisa, 43:16)

Why Survivors Stay Silent: Shame, Fear, Manipulation

• [44:55-54:05] Lisa articulates the deep-rooted shame, disbelief, and legitimate fear—including threats, retaliation, and the social minimization of abuse—that prevent survivors from reporting. She contextualizes why the normalization of manipulative abuse makes it all the more insidious.

  “It never even crossed my mind to go to the police... I felt like it was my fault.” (Lisa, 27:20)
  “A lot of victims of abuse don’t realize it when it’s a serial predator.” (Lisa, 52:12)

Turning Point: Speaking Out and the Death of Epstein

• [56:34-63:11] Epstein’s apparent suicide in 2019 catalyzed Lisa’s healing journey and activism. She found newfound freedom from fear and was inspired by Virginia Giuffre’s public courage.

  “When he died was the moment that shifted my entire life. It was the defining moment of my life.” (Lisa, 56:34, 94:21)

Advocacy, Capitol Hill, and the Fight for Justice

• [71:31-76:02] Lisa recounts testifying on Capitol Hill for release of the "Epstein files," building solidarity with fellow survivors, and the importance of exposing the full web of abuse and its enablers.

  “If you don’t release the list, we will.” (Lisa, 73:36)

• The need for institutional accountability over vigilante justice is emphasized, along with the danger survivors still face.

Healing and Empowerment: Therapy and Community

• [82:15-87:25] Lisa describes therapy (especially EMDR), finding her voice, and building community through support groups and her own podcast. She notes the contrast between public validation and personal loss—estrangement from friends and family.

  “The powerful woman that you see today, I believe it’s from the transformation that I went through with EMDR therapy.” (Lisa, 84:55)

Continuing the Fight and Hope for the Future

• [97:22-end] Lisa reflects on the ongoing quest for truth, wishing more perpetrators would be brought to justice, and the pain of losing fellow advocate Virginia Giuffre.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Epstein’s methods:

  “He was never a Hugh Hefner playboy. He was a mentor. Which made it worse.” (Lisa, 19:18-19:19)

• On the challenge of recognizing abuse:

  “Most women feel safe with that type of man who doesn’t give you any inkling that they’re attracted to you. Right... You feel safe with him.” (Lisa, 19:44)

• On revisiting her trauma:

  “I remember being like someone completely different after. I remember going back to New York...and just being like, oh, they’re disgusting. Doing cocaine and stuff like that. But after the abuse, now I started to understand Holy weird... why everyone kind of has issues.” (Lisa, 23:08)

• On the model/trafficking pipeline:

  “Jeffrey had apartments... filled with Eastern European girls. I saw it.” (Lisa, 32:56)

• On the silence of survivors:

  “They’re definitely ashamed. No, they’re scared of death.” (Lisa, 34:03-34:06)

• On survivor solidarity:

  “There’s nothing more powerful in the world than a group of women with a mission.” (Mariana, 70:51)

• On why she fights for file release:

  “To understand what’s going on in America with our privileged, wealthy people and hopefully to stop it. If people are aware of it, it’s going to be a little harder to abuse children.” (Lisa, 77:41)

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Important Timestamps

• 05:43: Lisa’s abuse by Oliver Stone and its industry context.
• 12:17: Arrival at Epstein’s island, first observations of the dynamic.
• 21:34: Description of assault by Epstein.
• 27:20: Why reporting abuse seemed impossible.
• 31:26: Explanation of modeling agencies’ complicity.
• 34:23: Estimate: Epstein abused 6-8 girls a day.
• 43:10: Being trafficked for “auditions” and “introductions” to powerful men.
• 56:34: The impact of Epstein’s death on Lisa’s healing.
• 71:31: Testimony before Congress—advocacy for releasing Epstein files.
• 82:15: Therapy, community, and the long process of reclaiming self.
• 94:21: Epstein’s death as a turning point, memoir in progress.

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Tone & Language

The episode is intimate, candid, and raw. Both Mariana and Lisa speak with deep empathy and clarity, balancing difficult truths with resilience and hope. Lisa frequently uses direct language when describing abuse, aligning with her determination for honesty and justice.

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Summary Takeaway

This is a powerful, unsparing exploration of how abuse is perpetrated and covered for in elite circles, the lifelong cost to survivors, the importance of solidarity and truth-telling, and the systems that must change. Lisa Phillips’ journey underscores the importance of survivor-led advocacy, institutional accountability, and cultural transformation to combat exploitation and enable real healing.

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For further support:

• Lisa’s podcast for survivors
• EMDR therapy
• National sexual assault hotlines

(End of summary)

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Our guest today is Lisa Phillips. Lisa, welcome on the podcast. Lisa was 21 years old when she was sexually assaulted by Jeffrey Epstein. She recently testified on Capitol Hill urging the release of the remaining files, the full list, and has made it her mission to support other survivors of abuse. So, Lisa, welcome on the Hidden Third. Thank you. Let's start from you growing up in Europe mostly, right?

[A]

Yeah, I had a very interesting childhood. My father had gone to Columbia. He was the first one in his family to graduate at a major university. At a university, really? And studied engineering and went into the Air Force. And he worked at the Pentagon for a while. We were there for a while. Electronic warfare. And then he was stationed in Europe. We moved to Belgium when I was a teenage teenager and he was working at NATO. And I had a great childhood. I did all sports, soccer, gymnastics. We went camping a lot. And just had a really colorful, really wonderful childhood. My mom was like a homemaker and took really good care of us. And so I heard she was a very good cook. Yeah, yeah. My mother is Indian descent, so, yeah, she's a fantastic cook. And I felt like I had a really good childhood. I had everything that I wanted. My parents really said no. Never said no to me on anything.

[B]

And you decided you wanted to be a model and an actress when you were very, very young, right?

[A]

Yeah, I did. I always had this bubbly personality that loved being in front of the camera. I'm an extrovert and I love Meeting people. So my mother entered me into pageants when we lived in the States. We were in Idaho for a couple years and you know, I was in middle Little Miss Idaho.

[B]

No, you were not.

[A]

And it was like Miss Congeniality. So, like, that's great. Yeah, that was the beginning. And then started. My mom started entering me into modeling competitions and magazines and things like that. And was on a national magazine. Was in a national magazine.

[B]

Wow. Was that your first big.

[A]

At 16 years old? Yeah. Flew to New York at 16.

[B]

Wow. By yourself or did you go?

[A]

No, I went by myself. Yeah.

[B]

How was that? It was.

[A]

I mean, I was in awe of New York City. I just loved it. And I made a promise to myself, like, one day I'm going to be a fashion model here in New York. So that was one of my big goals.

[B]

And you were. And you did?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Just. Just a few years later.

[B]

How did that happen? How did the move to New York happen?

[A]

So as we moved, my dad got his orders and we moved to Belgium. We lived in Mons, that's where the NATO base was. And I started modeling with my Brussels agency and a little in Amsterdam, I went to Paris and London. And then when I graduated high school, I moved to Miami beach and I started working in Miami and la. And from there, models, they build their book. So they travel to like South Africa or Greece or London, and you spend two or three months just building your portfolio. And so I was doing that. I was very serious about it. You know, I kept my body, my skin, everything in really great shape. And I worked really hard at that. And I was really proud of my modeling career and what I was building. And because of my personality, I did in a mixed race heritage. Like I. It just was very in, you know, in the late 90s, early, early 2000s, so I worked quite a bit more on the commercial modeling side. But I was always with really like big agencies.

[B]

And then you moved to New York.

[A]

Yes, and then when I was ready, because you had to be ready to move to New York for those big agencies at that time in the early 2000s.

[B]

So you mean ready as in you'd.

[A]

Have to have a. Oh, yeah.

[B]

Be represented and have.

[A]

You have to have. You have to be a working model for years, building your book, your portfolio, your resume, basically, and be worth it to get signed to a New York agency. It's a lot of hard work to get there. It's not nowadays, but back then it was. And so, yeah, I got signed by a big agency in New York and moved there and in late 1999.

[B]

Wow. What was that like?

[A]

Incredible. I've always been like, career, you know, focused and goal oriented. And it was a big dream of mine, you know, not only to be an actress, that's like, was a big goal of mine, but.

[B]

And you were taking acting classes at the same time?

[A]

Yeah, I was spending a lot of money in acting classes, like with the best coaches whenever I had an audition. I'd already been opposite Jamie Foxx in Any Given Sunday with Oliver Stone and some, some background work, you know, and I had probably already done 50 national TV commercials by then, actually.

[B]

Tell me the story of that film you did with Oliver Stone. I heard that and it's really interesting.

[A]

Yeah, you know, I didn't really think about it so much, but as I started really thinking about, you know, bad experiences in the movie industry, that was a really.

Kind of upsetting situation. I had auditioned for the movie and Oliver had lined up like four mixed race girls. And he was like all excited with these mixed race girls. It was like kind of weird. And we remember looking at each other like, oh, this is odd. I ended up getting the part and I showed up for the movie and did my movie scene. And after that, I had walked off set and Oliver came running up to me and said, grab me on my butt. And was like, you did a great job. And I was wearing a shorter skirt. And he put his hand like right up and I was like. And I immediately like pushed him away from me and I was like, stop. And everyone on set turned and looked and I was just like. And he was like, oh, you're released. And I was like, what? We're not done yet. And he was like, you're released. Wow. Right there on the spot. And I remember, I just, it just happened so quickly and I didn't know what to do. I mean, I didn't know like the actor's protocol to be like, hehe, you know, you know, and push it away, you know, and put up with these things. I think like a lot of actresses do, but I just had that. No one had ever done anything like that to me before. So I just had this response of just like, get away from me. He didn't like it. So basically was fired.

[B]

You were? Yeah.

[A]

And so the next couple days I kept calling my agent, like, I don't understand what's going on. Like, I did a great job. I, I, I won this role. And they were just like, well, it's done. But I kept pushing my agent, you know, say, just say something. And apparently he did. And then for some reason, a couple days later, you know, they called me back in and actually worked better in my favor because then he put me in a small part opposite Jamie Foxx. But Jamie Foxx was the bigger actor at the time, and that's great. It was only a couple lines, but the. It was on my face, this close. And after that, like, people would stop me in the streets, like, oh, you were in that movie, so it turned out good. But I knew the secret behind it.

[B]

Right. So do you think he gave you that part because he was afraid of the repercussions for him if you would say something since that your agent spoke up about it?

[A]

Well, now, after all I've gone through, I realize I was the one who spoke up about it. So he wanted to make sure I didn't say anything or cause any problems. So he ended up just giving me a small part. It wasn't like giving me a big part. So, yeah, I felt like he did that. And I had a conversation with him later on, a couple years later, and, you know, he had said to me, like, wow, you weren't the only ones that ever, like, stood up to me. And I was thinking it was just a reaction. It wasn't that I had planned to, like, stand up to him. It was just in the moment.

[B]

So do you think he realized it wasn't a cool thing to do? Like, he shouldn't be doing that to women?

[A]

Come on. No, no, no. He doesn't realize it's not a cool thing to do. I'm sure he went on to do more things like that. So I think when you're just an abuser of women, it's just something that you just continue doing no matter the repercussions, unless it's really devastating.

[B]

Right. It's so. So. I mean, so much has changed, obviously, and I don't think it happens as much, but the fact that it still happens and people that men think it's okay to just go up to a woman and grab her butt.

[A]

Well, yeah. Still happens today all the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So then you find yourself in New York, and then you get asked, how did you end up going to the Virgin Islands?

[A]

Okay, well. Oh, let's see. I was strong in that experience, but when you're up against a master manipulator, there's no getting out of that situation. So I'll explain. What happened to me next was working in New York, really happy, very focused. You know, I'm a daughter of a lieutenant colonel in the Air Force, so I Was very, you know, I had a strict upbringing and I booked a really great job. It was cover of a magazine. It was just a health and fitness magazine. It wasn't like Vogue, but you know, it was a spread and, you know.

[B]

It was a cover.

[A]

Yeah, it a cover and you know, like a five page spread with another model. She was Eastern European. She was from Poland. I knew her from my agency. We weren't besties, but, you know, I knew her from the agency like the models do, and met with a photographer and he chose me and her and we got together with the crew and we flew to. It was Tortola. It's this really cute island in the British West Indies. It's next to St. Thomas and did the shoot. Had a great time. Also during that shoot, the photographer was hitting on me and had slid into my bed one night.

[B]

No.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you kicked him out?

[A]

Well, it was just like weird. Well, model, photographer, weird exchange. Weird the next day because, yeah, I kicked him out basically. But it was just a weird feeling.

[B]

Yeah, of course.

[A]

But something I could handle because I had been hit on so much.

[B]

Do you think was that a thing in the modeling world? I guess, like women would just. They expect that. They know they're going to constantly be hit on inappropriately by men.

[A]

I heard it all the time with other models and it happened to me many times. But usually you could handle those situations.

I think sometimes photographers choose the model that they have a thing for, unfortunately, and hope to get something. It wasn't a terrible situation. I don't think that man was terrible. I think he shot his shot and didn't work out. But the next day the other model said to me, you know, let's get out of here. I have a friend who owns an island. And I was like, yeah, I kind of want to get out of here.

[B]

And it was your day off, right?

[A]

Yeah, because I was like, I don't want to be left here with him. You know what I mean? So I'll go with you. And so she's like, yeah, I'm gonna go to my friend Jeffrey, his island. He's so great. He's done so much for me. He got my visa to work in the United States. And I'm like, oh, wow, how do you get that for you? You know? And we kind of joked about it, but yeah, he got her a visa. He had done lots of big things for her and helped her out a lot. So I thought, oh, wow, he's got a. She's got a good friend and I trust her. And I kind of want to get away. Don't want to leave me here. The old model here with this guy who's like. Like, all over me. So I went with her, and a boat was sent to us, Jumped on the boat. And that image that you see floating online was me heading to the island. The island's behind me. You know, I'm almost 5ft 9, and I was about 115 pounds. I look like a little boy. I mean, I look womanly now. Not then. And you were 21, right? Yeah, I was like, 21, 22, almost. Yeah, yeah. And so was she. And went over to the island and spent a really fun day at the island. I started noticing some things while I was there.

[B]

When was the first time you saw Jeffrey?

[A]

Well, first I was noticing things, like a lot of young blonde girls in the island and older men. Well, there was an older man in the pool, and then we went to dinner, and then I met jeffrey, and he waltzed in.

[B]

And so during the day, you're just hanging out with all the other girls. You guys are on the pool and just doing your own thing. Okay. Yeah.

[A]

He's not a playboy. So he wasn't hanging around the girls. No, he's off doing whatever business he has to do. We were just hanging out with the girls. I observed there was an older man in the pool that was around, but a prince.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I didn't have that much interaction.

[B]

So I know I've heard this before, But I think it has been well documented that it was a prince. Right?

[A]

Yeah. So later on at the dinner, when Jeffrey was asking me about myself and my childhood and how I grew up and all that stuff I mentioned, you know, I basically spent from two months old until, you know, a kid in england. And he's like, where? Like in oxford. And he was like, oh, you know. And he was telling me about his friends in oxford and everything, and he was like, would you like to meet a prince? And as that man from the pool walked up, and I was like, sure. And he introduced me to a prince.

[B]

It has been documented that it was prince Andrew, right?

[A]

Oh, it's been documented. Yes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. And so was he sitting. Was Jeffrey. He sat down next to you?

[A]

No, no, no.

[B]

During the dinner?

[A]

No, no, no, no. He just said hello. He was leaving. He was leaving the island, so he.

[B]

No, no. I mean, Geoffrey, did he sit next to you at dinner?

[A]

Oh, he sat right next to me. I was the new girl.

[B]

So prince andrew said hi and left. And then you stayed, and he sat Next to you, were you the only new girl? He knew all the other girls?

[A]

Oh, he knew everyone else.

[B]

How many are we talking about?

[A]

So I don't. I can't remember. I think there was two or three other girls.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I remember two specifically, including your friend. Two? Three. Well, now I've seen pictures. So there was. There was other girls there. They were all young, blonde girls. And then the girl who brought me also.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I don't believe the girl who brought me thought Jeffrey would be interested in me at all just because I'm mixed race and very different from, I think, the girls that were usually around. But I was well educated and I lived in England and things, and I think he took a particular liking to me. He spoke to me for a really long time.

[B]

Do you think the friend that brought you knew, though, what Jeffrey was doing to the girls?

[A]

Oh, absolutely.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think she knew he liked massages. I don't think that she thought that he would want me to do a massage. I don't think she was setting me up or who knows, because I've never really had a good conversation with her about it. So I often wonder the ones who are silent now, why they're silent. So I'm not quite sure what she was thinking, but I'm sure she knew that Jeffrey liked young, pretty girls and, you know, didn't want to go alone. I don't really know the situation. I hope to think that she didn't think that he would want to do a massage with me.

[B]

Right. That's.

[A]

Yeah. But something about, like, my upbringing and the way I hold myself and was probably very similar to the other girls, even though I was brown and they were white. So we went to our room later on that night.

[B]

So wait, so wait, so you're at dinner, he sits next to you because you're the new girl, and he's very interested in you. How was that conversation like?

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[A]

The conversation I will always remember with Jeffrey, the very first time I met him, because it was like nothing I'd ever experienced with a man. I had never had a man ask me questions about my childhood and my relationship with my father and my family, my dreams, my goals, my aspirations. It was an in depth conversation that I witnessed that he had with all the girls.

[B]

He.

[A]

Well, I thought he was genuinely interested in who I was as a person and it made me feel good. And also it's an emotional response you have because it's like, wow, someone really cares about me who's an older man, who's more of a mentor. I was desperate for that. I had never had it and I had always looked up to because my father working in the Air Force, dinner parties. And we would be around very sophisticated older men and I would always look up to them. And you know, I looked up to this man at this time and I liked that he paid me that attention. Of course, you know, I really liked it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I learned so much from him too, because he would always give advice, not to myself, but I would hear the advice he would give to the other girls and I could tell they respected him.

[B]

So your first impression of him was a great guy?

[A]

It was great, yeah.

[B]

He was interesting. He was charismatic.

[A]

Yeah, it was just a really great.

Feeling to have someone that, because I'd always just had, I never had an ugly duckling stage. I was always a very pretty girl. Since I was 13, 14, 15. I've always had men hit on me and, you know, move their wedding rings when they would talk to me, a teenager. Things, weird things. And I always knew men were gross. Well, I was. Thought men a lot. Most men were gross around me. But he wasn't like that. Wow. He wasn't like that. You know, so when he was mentoring, he wasn't a playboy. People need to understand. He was never a Hugh Hefner playboy. He was a mentor. So.

[B]

Which made it worse, right?

[A]

Oh, yeah, of course it makes it worse. I was comfortable at that point, but that was the whole point of. The whole point of grooming. You know, I do think.

[B]

I mean, I think every woman understands that position. Arriving in an island with a very rich man who's very well connected. There's a prince there, it's a beautiful home he's hosting. And then there's all these beautiful women. And then you are the person he wants to talk to and he wants to learn about your life. Of course you're going to feel special.

[A]

Yeah. Because also, it's different from all the other kind of playboy or older men that I had met. They lead with their sexuality. They lead with the fact that. Oh, they want you to. They lead with the fact that they're attracted to you. With him. Nothing. Nothing. So you feel safe. Women always feel safe with that type of man who doesn't give you any inkling that they're attracted to you. Right. So, you know, I just didn't think anything of it. You know, kind of a kid in that way. I didn't. I didn't think anything of it. I just felt safe with him. And I felt like, wow, this is really cool. So we went back to our. The quarters and then got ready for bed. And that was basically it until maybe like an hour later. That's when one of the other young girls came to the door and said, no, Jeffrey's ready for his massage. So I was just looked at the other girl like, you know, go ahead, if you're gonna do a massage. Like, go ahead. I don't know.

[B]

You were looking at the Polish girl that brought you in.

[A]

Yeah. It was like I didn't understand what the heck massage was. Cause she had never brought up massages and massages Sounds kind of innocent, I guess. If you have massage techniques, go do a massage. But I didn't know anything about a massage. And so we just argued a little bit. And the girl who came to the door said, no. You have to go. He asked for you. And I was just like, I don't know how to do a massage. And the Polish girl said, you know, just, we have to go and just do. Do what I do. And I said, okay. So I just went with a Polish girl.

[B]

You and the Polish girl? Oh, my God. And then.

[A]

Yeah. So, I mean, I wasn't thinking anything. Cause this was a wonderful man who cared about me and, you know, so made me feel safe. So I didn't really think anything of it until we got in. And then I see this butt naked man from dinner laying on a table, you know, and I'm just like, a massage table. And I'm just like, okay, this is getting weird.

So I just. I go with her and, you know, now all of a sudden, he's cheeky and he's got this little grin on his face and. And he's talking about, ooh, do you have a boyfriend? And, like, asking me more sexual type things while she's like, you know, looking at me like. And so he moves us from a real massage that lasted a while into a sexual assault between the three of us. And everything just went dark pretty quickly. And after that, it was just like, get out. So we ran out, you know, and went back to our room. And it was just.

Confusing because I had thought. It wasn't like, I just arrived at the island and then we went into the room. It was like a full day of everything seemed normal and fine and good, you know, and then turned out to be not normal and not good and not fine. And I just. I remember I was just staring at the ceiling this entire night, not even sleeping, and just feeling like, what the. What just happened? You know, And I just wanted to get off the island as quick as I could. The boat came in the morning, and we ran as fast as we could, got on the boat and took off. And I never went back to the island again.

[B]

Wow.

And you came out a completely different person, I imagine.

[A]

Yeah, unfortunately, you know, that's what happens to you when you have a bad, bad experience. You know, with sexual assault. It just really. I remember being some person before.

[B]

And.

[A]

I remember being like, someone completely different after. I remember going back to New York and, you know, and I'm a fashion model and, you know, going out to parties and things like that. I remember, like, going to a Madonna party and seeing these people with, like, cocaine on platters and just being like, oh, they're disgusting. Doing cocaine and stuff like that. But after the abuse, now I started to understand Holly weird. And the entertainment business and why everyone kind of has issues. You know, there's a lot of drugs. And I now I started taking notice. Oh, well, they're famous or they're successful when they party. Like, maybe I should do it, too. And it was right after the next time I was offered it, I was like, okay, yeah. And I remember trying it for the first time, going like, wow, this feels really good. Because now, all of a sudden, that shame and that assault that happened to me almost didn't happen. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I've thought about this a lot. The idea that there's definitely. There's something that breaks in you. Right. There's this trust that goes away. There's this view of the world that disappears in an instant. And I don't think most people realize what that does to a person.

[A]

Yeah. Because there's a distinct difference between someone who is assaulted by a stranger that just happens, and that's traumatic. And there's a huge difference when it's a manipulator, a groomer or predator who always has super, super good with the bad and super, super good with the bad. Right. And that's how he operated.

[B]

Because then how do you know who to trust? Right. Because it's not black and white. So if this person presents as totally safe and trustworthy and then he does this to me, who else is out there? Who else can I trust? Right.

[A]

Yeah. And I think I just didn't trust myself anymore. I didn't want to date anymore. Not that I did that much anyway. But I didn't trust men the same way. I was confused about myself. I was ashamed. I just felt, like, worthless. You know, I was going through those, and that's why I like drugs. I understand drugs now. Before, I was like this. Like, I'm too good for drugs. And then I was like, oh, I'm piece of shit. Like, you hand them over. You know, I started just being like, in that scene where it just felt good. Because when you would hang out and now you're partying and I would drink alcohol, I felt good again.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I felt, you know, like that didn't bother me. I'm bigger than this. But it was, like, fooling me. It wasn't really me. It was the, you know, the drugs fooling me.

[B]

I know you later on, continued a relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, but I do think it's important for you to explain the shame of it all. Like, what that feels like. The feeling that maybe, which I've heard other survivors talk about, the feeling that maybe if I had done Something different. Maybe it was my fault. Can you talk a little bit about that?

[A]

Well, I always felt like it was my fault because I didn't know that the other girls were getting assaulted. I actually thought at the time, this is really, really horrible. But because I was mixed race, I define myself as being multicultural, mixed race, brown. You know, I don't consider myself black or white, you know, because my parents. So I thought because I was like the brown girl, that maybe it was a fetish thing for him and that he was treating them more superior because they were blonde and these beautiful girls. And I was like, oh, maybe I just want to see what this is like. I don't know. I made it feel like, oh, wow, was I flirty with him. I just kept thinking all the things of, what did I do wrong? I mean, obviously I know now that he did it to everybody, but back then, I thought something was wrong with me or it was the way that I looked or presented myself. And so there was so much shame that went along with that in those. Those years. Right. And I hate. I did hate him. I did hate him. But I also had to remember good feelings about him because that touched me very deeply, and it made me think about my life when he asked those questions. Those questions I never thought of or put two and two together, you know?

[B]

And what would you say to people who don't understand why somebody who went through that didn't immediately go to the police and report him?

[A]

That's just. I'm sorry. Go to the police on someone like that? It never even crossed my mind.

I just. No, I wouldn't even know what to say. I felt like it was my fault, just like other people doing right now. Why were you doing the island? Where were your parents? You know, you wanted it. You're just there for money. You were there for your career. People say all this stuff. No, like, I. I wasn't expecting anything like that to happen to me. But then you're right, I ended up going back to it. And I can't explain that either, except for the fact that I hated the guy and his secretaries called me every single day for four months.

[B]

So you went back to New York and you continued, and then you started using drugs more and more.

[A]

Yeah, I just went all marketing my life.

[B]

And that actually had an effect on your career at the time, too, right? Because you were arriving late at photo shoots and stuff like that.

[A]

Yeah, I did. I actually did. My. The owner of the agency at the time was just like, what's going on with you? You Know, like, oh, I just, like, taxi ran over my foot. You know, I had all these crazy excuses. You know, I've never heard that one. It actually did happen.

[B]

That's really.

[A]

You know, and. And I was just, like, just kind of just different. I just was different. And people noticed it. Then I also had, you know, the Epstein army calling me all the time. He had secretaries that would call the girls.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Ask all of them. They would call all the time to see when you could go back and meet with him. And I would just tell him, like, no way. I'm not meeting with him. Leave me alone. But it wasn't until he called me on the phone. Now I know now why he had to reel me back. And he had to because of who I saw on the island. So I had to. So he was gonna get me one way or the other.

[B]

So he knew, okay, this is a loose cannon. This is somebody who saw Prince Andrew, who can get him in trouble, can get me in trouble. And I need to figure out how to get her back into my orbit.

[A]

Oh, for sure. You hit it on the nail. I know that now. Back then, I had no clue why they tried so hard to pull me back in. Like, why am I so special? So he called me up.

[B]

What were you doing at that time?

[A]

Oh, I had just come from a casting, and I remember it answering the phone, 907. I got this number, and I'm like, that's weird. And back then you answer it because, you know, spam calls, you know, I answered it, and immediately I recognized his voice. His very distinct way of talking, too very fast and just to the point. And he just said. I remembered what you said on the island, Lisa, that you wanted to be a Ford model. That was your ultimate goal. And I'm like, yeah. And he's like, well, I'm really close friends with the owner, and if you'd like, I spoke to her about you, and she wants to meet you. And that was like, are you kidding me? That's so exciting. You know, And. And then I was thinking to myself, yeah, see, he's not a bad guy. He's like what all the other girls said, you know, he's good. He does things for them. So maybe he feels bad for what he did to me, you know? So I just started in my head, but because I had just had this goal, and now I can go and meet with this agency, which was a step up from the agency I was with. And so he just said, go, you know, and that was it. So I was like, oh, this is payback, right? Like, this is good. And so. Thank you, Jeffrey. Thank you. And then he hung up the phone. And I went and met with them and met the owner. And she was like, I love Jeffrey.

[B]

This was Eileen Ford.

[A]

This was her daughter, Kate Katie Ford.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And so.

Gosh. Yeah, I just. It's so crazy because that was the most. One of the most important days of my life. I felt like I made it there because it wasn't like he can get you to become a model if you don't deserve to be a model. It wasn't like, you know, off the streets, five' two. I had been working really hard, you know, to become. And so I was ready for it. And I would have gotten it anyway, you know, but I just.

[B]

Back then, you getting in the door was.

[A]

Getting in the door was, you know, it was my next goal.

And it just happened like this quickly. Now I'm in the Ford Models orbit, which back then I thought was a huge, big deal and had nothing to do with Jeffrey. I only found out maybe two years ago that they were kind of in cahoots with each other. Oh, yeah, the malignants. Now I'm finding out now. And I kind of knew back then because of what I would see. But I always saw back then, older men parties with younger girls. And I always thought that was weird.

But now I know that the modeling agency with John, Luke Brunello, Karen's, you know, the Fords with Fords and Next Models and all these agencies were in cahoots with. With him. So.

[B]

And there's. Yeah, there's a famous one that was owned by Jean Luc Brunel. Right. Who was a famous owner of this big agency. What was it called?

[A]

Karen's in Paris. And then in New York, it was MC2.

[B]

So he got in trouble in Paris for also sexually assaulting women models and young women. And then. But he was somehow able to go to New York, opening open a modeling.

[A]

Agency there with Jeffrey's help.

[B]

With Jeffrey's help. Right. Funding. Right. Jeffrey funded him. And I've heard this explained, but it almost became sort of a feeding program, which is such a horrible way of putting this, but a way of getting women from Europe. A lot of Eastern European women. Right. For Jeffrey and his network. Right.

[A]

Unfortunately, a lot of Eastern European. They would find them, develop them in Europe and then get them visas quickly to work in New York. And Jeffrey had apartments that were filled with Eastern European girls. I saw it. Yeah. And Visa is as a model. It's a very serious business. People Think you just have to be pretty and tall. You have to, have to work around the world and build your book and get 40 to 50. Now it's 70 tear sheets, which is magazines, which you got to be up to par to be getting magazines around the world. And they tear the, tear the magazines out, the covers and things and the pages and put into your portfolio. That's how you get a visa. But these girls were getting visas like that.

[B]

So you think that was Jeffrey Epstein somehow connect his connection with.

[A]

Yeah. So hordes of models were coming through that network and feeding to these agencies through Jean Luc Brunel's agency where he was outright raping girls. That's well documented.

[B]

They're stuck here. They don't know the country, they don't have their family here. They're young. It's just horrible.

[A]

Yeah, but he was also mentoring. Jeffrey was mentoring them while also probably abusing them.

And most of those girls are very silent. I mean, I've spoken to many since I spoke out Capitol Hill, but nobody wants to come forward. And I don't blame them.

[B]

What do they say? They say they don't want to come forward. Why?

[A]

Well, they have the same stories as the underage girls in Florida and the other ambitious young women, 18 to 25 in New York. Everyone has the same story, but it's slightly different. They needed visas and they needed money for their families and underage girls in Florida needed money for their families and for themselves and they preyed on the ambitious career driven women in New York by getting them jobs or.

[B]

And you think it's the shame that that's why they don't want to speak out. Are they afraid of.

[A]

They're definitely ashamed. No, they're scared of death.

[B]

Yeah, they're scared. Yeah.

[A]

Of course they're frightened. Of course.

[B]

Yeah, we'll get there. Because I think that's a really important part that most people don't realize, but I heard you saying recently, which blew my mind, how many girls do you think Jeffrey was seeing every day?

[A]

Every day. I think it was between six and eight a day. He was jerking off a six and eight girls a day.

[B]

Wow.

Wow. Which. Yeah, which, yeah. Which is why he needed these agencies and he needed to figure out he.

[A]

Was a good streamed sex addict.

[B]

Perverted sex addict. Yeah. Wow. Okay, so then, so then he calls you and you get the job, right? You get, I mean you get signed with.

[A]

I get signed with the agency. Yes, I do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And which I thought that was kind of the end of it. And now I'm A model.

[B]

And.

[A]

He tried to keep me back in the orbit. Because now when you are in Jeffrey's orbit, you can't really get out of it, because if you've seen things and, you know, things, they don't really want you easily out of it. So he has to do these things for you just to keep you compliant and keep you, like, looking up to him and things. So now that you're a Ford model, now you see other things, too, because now I'm invited to parties with a lot of older men and were younger and this was happening quite a bit, and.

[B]

And these are powerful men, like men in power. Men like CEOs and politicians and.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. I remember going into the Ford Agency once, and one of the agents saying to me, you know, we had a guy in here the other day. He was looking at the comp cards and he, like, picked you out and was like, I have got to go out with this girl. She's a. She's gorgeous. And so, because my agency told me I was going on a blind date with this guy. And so I'm thinking, yeah, he's probably like my age, you know, one of the other models, maybe a male model.

[B]

@Blinds.Com, it's not just about window treatments. It's about you. Your style, your space, your way. Whether you DIY or want the pros to handle it all, you'll have the confidence of knowing it's done right. From free expert design help to our 100% satisfaction guarantee, everything we do is made to fit your life and your windows. [e-mail] the only thing we treat better than windows is you. It's your last chance to score. Cyber Monday Megadeals shop up to 50% off plus a free professional measure right now. @blinds.com rules and restrictions apply. Wait, the agency would send you on blind dates with guys? With older guys?

[A]

Well, I didn't know he was older guy. I thought he was probably maybe one of the hot young models, right? But I. But I. When he came to pick me up, I remember he was in a Range Rover. And I came down in my, like, Upper east side apartment and flew out the door, and I was like, oh, hi. Are you. Are you. Are we going to pick up your grandson? And he was like, no. I was like, your son? And he was like, no. I'm like, I'm on a date with you. And he was like, yeah. And I'm thinking, well, this is like the oldest guy I've ever seen. He had white hair, and I'm like, and I'm thinking, why the. If it was today? Obviously, I'd been texting my agency and, like, doing a selfie, like, with this old man and showing them, like, is, sure this is the guy, you know, and he didn't abuse me. He was a very nice man.

[B]

It was just a dinner.

[A]

I guess it was just a dinner. I mean, he took me, but, you know, he took me to dinner. It was in the Upper east side at this mansion. I remember going in, going up elevator, and I sat next to Tippi and Al Gore. No way. And I remember after I had actually had a great time, they were really funny and had a great conversation with them. And I remember after going, aren't you embarrassed? I mean, you've gotta be like. I mean, at that time, I think I just thought 40s was old, but he's probably in his 60s. And I'm like, you've gotta be like, in your 50s or something. And aren't you embarrassed to show up with me? And he was like, no, you know, you make me look good. And I'm thinking, what is it?

[B]

Agent, a couple of questions. Okay. First of all, Al Gore was actually my first boss in the United States. He owned the production, the company, Current tv, the TV station I work for. So I've met him. Very nice man.

[A]

Yeah, very nice.

[B]

What does the agency have to gain with having you guys go on these blind dates? You think. Would you think they were paying them?

[A]

He was a senator, huh?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

He was a senator of one of the Northeastern.

[B]

And he wasn't married, I guess, even.

[A]

Though I never looked him up after, because I was just so freaked out of why they would send me on a date with a man that old.

[B]

So weird.

[A]

And he was kind. He wasn't. I don't believe he was one of Jeffrey's co conspirators or, you know, Jeffrey's guys, because he didn't try to abuse me or anything. He just wanted to go on a date with me. He was very kind, you know, but it was just odd.

[B]

Very. Yeah. Okay. And then how was the next contact with Jeffrey after that?

[A]

So now I'm working as a model and stuff like that. And.

Jeffrey had requested for me to go and meet with him again. And that was very hard for me to go and meet with him because I just, you know, had these. He did something for me. But, like, what happened on the island? I was kind of scared, but I went and.

[B]

And this was at his house on.

[A]

The Upper east side? Yeah. Knocked on that big door, walked in.

[B]

What Was that, like, what were you feeling at the time?

[A]

Nervous. I remember going up the stairs and going into his office and sitting at that big desk, and I sat there for quite a while while he was on the phone and, you know, got off the phone and just act like, you know, nothing. Just asking about, like, how it was, you know, with the agency and heard that, you know, she liked me and then modeling. And I thanked him and again, went into goals, dreams, you know, and talk. Oh, yeah. Talked about business. It was all really as if you would go with your mentor.

[B]

Right. And this is in the room that has all the photos of him with powerful people around the world.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Mostly Democrats. President at the time, right? Yeah, things like that.

[B]

Who was the president at the time?

[A]

Well, I think Bush.

[B]

Republican.

[A]

Was it Bush?

[B]

Okay. But he's got.

[A]

He's got photos, I remember, like, Bush and Clinton's and things like that. Yeah.

[B]

And. Yeah, so it's. Yeah, it's just like this power dynamic. Right. And do you think it's purposely done that way? Do you think that he.

[A]

Yeah, because they're right behind him.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And you see him with very, very important world leaders and people that you recognize. But also, he has this air about him. He's just probably one of the most intelligent people you'll ever meet. He's got a very keen way of talking to you and making you feel important and making you feel like you can do anything with your life. Talks, business, mentorship. I mean, I think almost any girl from that time would tell you that he spent a good hour with me.

[B]

Yeah. It's the idea that not only is he making you feel special, but knowing that he actually has the power to change your life. Right?

[A]

Yes, absolutely. And he spent a lot of time talking to me. I learned a lot from him, actually. You know, things that I still use today. Business.

Very important things that he taught me, you know, so.

[B]

About business and, like, tips about life and fan.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. And, like, little secrets and things. And he would tell me things about very important people, like a little secret, you know, stuff like that. So it made you feel like you were, you know, like, in with him. I don't know. It was a very weird feeling. But at the time, I liked those conversations with him. They felt good. What I didn't like was when I would like, okay, all right, ready to go? And I try to scurry out of there, and he'd be like, oh, no, no, I need a massage.

[B]

And that happened that first.

[A]

Yeah, it's time for a massage. And it's like, oh, you knew exactly what he meant. Oh, yeah. And I was like, okay. You know, and then it was just. That's what, that's what would start happening.

[B]

Did you see any other women there, girls when you were there that day?

[A]

Sometimes I can't remember if that day or not, but I would definitely see girls either going, leaving when I would go in or when I was going out, coming in. So he did have a rotation. I didn't know, but it was kind of funny because I knew he was a mentor, but I would never think that he was abusing everyone. And you kind of didn't even want to think about it then, so. And remember, they were real massages.

[B]

They would start as real massages.

[A]

Yeah. That would turn into a. You know, and it was just kind of. It's kind of confusing because you just think of like rape as intercourse. And that's not what he was doing with me. So it just was a confusing thing. So I just. That kind of would go on over the next couple years, just meetings like that. And then, you know, he would do some things that could help me out, you know, because he knew I was an actress and going to school. He helped me get into a university and paid for that. And things say like, I have a really good friend who's a very important person in Hollywood and he's casting a movie. And so he would send myself, you know, on a plane over to LA and I would audition for a huge film. Which I thought at the time, like, wow, he's really helping me. But fast forward 20 years later, I was one of many girls that was sent to the same guy in la.

[B]

And this was a famous, very well known movie director.

[A]

Yeah. And at the time I thought he was doing something nice for me, but he was trafficking me with other girls.

[B]

Jeffrey was?

[A]

Yeah, to the same person.

[B]

So you were expected to have sex with this guy or to do something with this guy?

[A]

Well, that's what you would assume. But when you're young and you don't assume that. No, never would say that to me. He would never say to me, you're expected to have sex. There are girls that. He did say, go have sex with these people. But with me and many, many of them, it was, of course it was, it was covert. It was like, no, I thought I was going for a movie audition, which was a real audition and a real big director, and left thinking it was an audition.

[B]

And you did the audition?

[A]

Yeah, I did the audition. And whether you get the role or not, it's all professional. But when you are trafficked to this person, maybe he's going to have sex with you or not. Maybe he'll go to a dinner and have sex with you. Maybe it's a relationship you build and he has sex with you. Yes, it's all for that reason in the end. But not all these men are like, go into that room and have sex with you. Like, I know a lot of girls dealt with, but with me, it was more keeping me around and make me feel like I'm special, make me feel like I'm getting something out of it. But never did he. Well, I can't say never during this time. He didn't say that to me. But what I observed was when I got back and if I would meet with him again and I would say, thank you for introducing me to so and so for the audition, I actually got a small part. We would talk about it. One thing I noticed about Jeffrey was that he would always ask me, well, what did he say to you? Did he touch you? What did he do to you? Did he try to have sex with you? He would ask those questions, and if I said no, or if I said, oh, he tried to, he would always say, well, why didn't you? Don't you want to be an actress? So he would start putting that in my head. And I, you know, I was the type that always would be like, no, I don't want to do that. But then he would say, oh, no. You know what you're supposed to do, Lisa, is lean in a little bit and maybe put your hand on his leg and make it seem like you would have sex with. But you don't have to have sex with him. So he was kind of like training me how to be with my. Normalizing it, too, training me how to be with men, but you don't have to have sex with them. So he had this weird thing, and I know that now, but back then I was just like, what's this guy talking about? You know? So it was weird stuff like that. And I did meet, you know, five or six men through him where I thought they were for auditions or just like, regular relationships that you would. Business relationships or career advancements that any normal person would send you in for. So I didn't really know the difference until, I mean, literally talking to all the other survivors, and it's like, oh, you met the same guy. What did he do to you? Like, you met him. And I mean, 10 or 15, 20 girls went to the same guys. So that's how we figured out the trafficking part of it.

[B]

What do you think Jeffrey had to gain from this?

[A]

Well, you know, from.

[B]

From, like, sending you guys to other men.

[A]

Yeah, Well, I mean, who doesn't want to be in with the powerful people in Hollywood, first of all? And also just having something on them. Right. You know, if you ever need it. Having something on powerful people, sending people to, you know, in the political world and having something on them. And, you know, I was used maybe as a pawn here, but there were girls that were made to have sex with people, and those were all recorded, Those were all on camera. Those were all documented.

[B]

So there was a point where he actually said that to you? Right. Why he did this sort of stuff, which. We'll get there in a second. But did you ever name the people that you met, the directors, those famous people?

[A]

I've never named them publicly, but I've named them when I've been deposed or to my attorneys. Yes.

[B]

And why have you not named them publicly?

[A]

Well, some of them didn't abuse me. Right. I have named them. Everybody knows the names. The DOJ and the FBI know the names because they've all been named.

[B]

But they're not public yet.

[A]

No, those aren't public yet. But that doesn't mean. Just because he sent me and I wasn't abused, they may not be the names that people really focus on. I think people focus on the names where there was actual assault that happened.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And Jeffrey, I wasn't really. I mean, he was helping me out. He kept me in his orbit. But I was not one of the girls that he was making to go have sex, like, outright. It got weird towards the end. There was only one phone call where I figured things out. When he called me to meet with somebody, it was towards the end of knowing him. He called me to meet with someone in Ghislaine. And I had already met Ghislaine. She was from Oxford. And we had a conversation about it. And he said, I want you to go meet with Ghislaine.

[B]

And.

[A]

And so. And so. And I was like, why would I go meet with him? Like, he's a rock star, old rock star. Like, I have no interest in meeting a musician. I mean, maybe if I was a aspiring musician, maybe it would be something I'd. Someone I'd want to meet. But then I said, why would you tell. Why would you tell me? And he got really upset with me, and he was like, you need to go meet with him. Go to dinner. It's just down the street in soho. And I'm like, I'm not going. It just didn't make sense to me. And that's when I said to him, why do you want me to have sex with him? And he was like, yeah, yeah, actually. And I was just like, ugh.

[B]

Wow. That was like this first time.

[A]

Oh, yeah. That was when it all opened up. And I'm like, really? And that's when I was like, what?

That's when I was. It was right then and it was right after that. Within a week later, my girlfriend come running to me and said to me, oh, you don't know who Jeffrey is? And I'm like, well, I'm starting to figure it out. You know, he called me up to go have sex with some rock star guy. And she's like, yeah, he made me do it. And I was like, made you do what? And that's when she told me, like, crazy thing he made her do, which.

[B]

Is having sex with another very powerful person.

[A]

Made her. So it wasn't the same as me. Remember, this was a young blonde girl, and those are the ones I think were made to do those things. And so.

[B]

So she was much younger than you?

[A]

No, she was maybe 19.

[B]

That's young, though, too.

[A]

We were all young. People don't understand 21. 20, 23 is young.

[B]

He's super young.

[A]

I'm sorry, it's young.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and. And you're easily manipulated. Like, I had no clue back then. But when. When it's overt and it's like, no, you need to go do that. I was like, oh, fuck you. And then she was like, oh, no, we don't know who this man is. And then we started calling our friends and being like, what is your experience? What is your experience?

[B]

So she was forced to have sex with the prince.

[A]

She was forced to have sex with someone of the royal family.

[B]

Explain to me. There were different. There were the women he was sort of getting in Florida, which is more where Ghislaine was a big part of it. Right. And then there was the New York and the Eastern European girls. Can you explain to me the difference between these different circles?

[A]

Well, I personally don't think there's much difference, except for some were underage. The abuse was exactly the same. So it's just the reason why he brought you in to be able to abuse you was different. So obviously, when you're in high school, what's important to you? Getting some cash and helping your family out. So that's what he used against those girls.

[B]

And those are the Florida girls. Yes.

[A]

And the underage girls. Yeah, I know a lot of them. They were children, you know, 14, 15, 16. I have kids that age.

[B]

God, it is insane.

[A]

They're kids.

[B]

14 years. I mean. Yeah, I have a 15 year old son. It's.

[A]

Yeah. And he took their virginity of some of them. So that abuse was, was different with the older girls. A lot of people, you know, think, oh, you were over age. Oh, I don't feel bad for you. You knew what you were doing. No, not when it comes to a master manipulator. I didn't know what the heck I was doing with this guy. I just didn't know how to get out of it. You know, I just did the best that I could. But he used ambition because what are you interested in at 18 to 25? A career. You know, and ambitious women, if you're just sitting at home eating potato chips, you have no leverage over her. But if you're ambitious, which is a lot of men prey on the ambitious women. Is that I can help you. And of course you trust people when they say they can help you because 99% of the time the good person helps you. It's that 1%, you know, who's a predator who's tricking you and charming you into helping you.

[B]

You're right.

[A]

And then you get stuck because if you're going to a four year, your four year university, you're going, you got a big job at a fashion magazine or an architecture firm or an art gallery or a modeling agency, I mean, that's like five or ten years that you're, you want to build that career. So there was ways that, you know, he was brilliant of pulling you into his orbit. And unfortunately I got pulled into it and I.

I didn't really understand it at the time.

[B]

Yeah, it seems like he was very good at also normalizing it in a way that you almost didn't realize it was abuse. You know, I've done stories on sex trafficking and interviewed victims of sex trafficking where they talk about, you know, how they were, they had pimps and were forced to have sex. But it all started in a way that they, you know, romantic relationship with this person and then they start forcing you to have sex with other men, but that they didn't realize they were being abused and that this was, you know, that this was actually sex trafficking.

[A]

Well, a lot of victims of abuse don't realize it when it's a serial predator. I mean, I had Larry Nassar victims on my podcast and it was exactly the same M.O. you know, this old Jewish guy who's, you know, covertly abusing them on, you know, the doctor table, parents right there, you know, and everybody knowing about it using his hands. It was just digital rape and tools, you know, just how Jeffrey did. So a lot of times you don't even know what's going on because he was a pillar in the community, and people looked up to him, and even their own parents looked up to him and would say, oh, that's not happening. Of course not. And with Jeffrey, everyone looked. During that time, everyone looked up to him, and everyone said he was great guy or he was a mentor.

[B]

So you talk to other girls, and everybody would just say that, oh, yeah, Jeffrey, it's great. And. But at this point, you didn't really realize that they were all also being abused, right?

[A]

Well, sometimes they'd be like, is he doing a creepy massage with you? And you'd be like, yeah, is he doing creepy massage? But you would say, a creepy massage. He wouldn't really say or know how to say exactly what he was doing, you know, because you know it's wrong or you know it's bad, and, you know, you're full of shame about it, but you don't really know how to. How to explain it, because then you also feel like you're at fault. Because I sat there for an hour and took a zone, his. His advice on business, you know, so it was just a. It was a very confusing thing. And it was his whole M.O. that's what he did. He. He didn't just bring you into his townhouse in New York and rape you. He spent a lot of time grooming you first. And the grooming was powerful. You know, grooming is powerful. You know, I talked to many victims, too, that were, you know, raped by their father or a stranger at a pool. And they fell in love with them, and they loved the relationship, even though they were being assaulted, and it was horrific. They were in love with the person that was hurting them. So people don't understand abuse. They just don't understand it.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's something that I hear all the time. The idea that you don't even realize you're being abused, that it just. It's normalized in a way that once you're too deep into it, you're. You just think this is just normal, and this is what I'm expected to do, and there's no big deal. And also, I imagine you not wanting to share this with other women or other girls because you're thinking maybe it's just me. And maybe he was able to do this with me because I'm a certain kind of way. But how embarrassing is it if I'm gonna share this with them and then they are not going through the same thing that I am.

[A]

Yeah. And also not having a safe place to share that with someone who you trust and love. Like going to your parents and saying, you know, this old guy is doing this stuff to me. Is this right? You know, or you know, talking to really good friends, sometimes they don't want to talk to you about it. Your partners don't want to talk to you about it, you know, or a lot of times you suppress it. That's why a lot of people become drug addicts. It's usually because they've had some type of abuse a lot of times in many different ways. And then it's a good way of suppressing it. I mean, I did for four or five years until I, you know, got married and had kids and never touched it again. But, you know, that was my way of suppressing it because then it didn't really happen and I didn't think about it at all. I didn't think about it. The only time I thought about it was when he died. Hey, Ryan Reynolds here wishing you a very happy half off holiday because right now Mint Mobile is offering you the gift of 50% off unlimited. To be clear, that's half the price, not half the service. Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price. So that means a half day. Yeah. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for a three month plan equivalent to $15 per month. Required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of network's busy taxes and fees extra see mint mobile.com when he finally died in 2019 was the moment that shifted my entire life. It was the defining moment of my life was when he died. Because now it was like it was this huge release that I could actually let go of of what happened to me. If he was still alive today, I wouldn't even be here. I would still be very quiet about it and not even probably know what to do about it. But we talk about it differently today than we did in the early 2000s. If that was going on in the early 2000s. Right. I mean there's TikTok to say, oh, this guy went and didn't. He made me do a creepy massage. We would talk about it, we would tell our friends because all the teenagers nowadays, they have the language of what this type of abuse is.

[B]

So much has changed.

[A]

Oh, my gosh, so much has changed. Back then, people to remember, we didn't have. We weren't taking pictures. I mean, we had phones, but we weren't taking pictures and texting like that. We weren't communicating. This wasn't a conversation about abuse.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think it's only recent.

[B]

Yeah. Things aren't perfect yet for sure, but I think there's been a huge evolution in terms of women empowerment and realizing what abuse is. It's just when it's not talked about, you don't even realize what it is. And once it's out in the open, then you were like, okay, wait, this happened to me and this is what abuse is?

[A]

Well, I mean, it started with the me too, a few years ago, but that wasn't successful. I mean, people just really victim shamed and blamed those women who came out. Nowadays, it's different. I mean, look at us survivors. The whole country got behind us. And a lot of men, A lot of men don't think this is right either. It's not just women. Right. This is a whole country that said, okay, now we're understanding abuse. And now they started to rally behind us. It's a good shift.

[B]

It is a very good shift and very necessary shift. I wanted to go back a little bit to when you found out Jeffrey had died. But before that, can you tell me about. So you found out your last interaction with Jeffrey. So you found out your friend had this horrible experience where she was forced to have sex with a very powerful man. And then what happened? You confronted Jeff, Right?

[A]

I actually did. I don't know why I'm so bold. It's just bold and stupid. I probably shouldn't have done that. You don't call out people like that. I just didn't really know at that time who he was. I mean, the magnitude of who he was. I didn't think of that back then.

[B]

So in your mind, the image of him at the time was, this is somebody who really cares for me, who's trying to advance my career, who's helping me. Yes, he has these weird queer quirks, but you were not realizing the extent of what that means to you and to the people around you?

[A]

Mm.

Yeah. I mean, there was something awful that happened with me, with another celebrity, with my agency. Um, so I was starting to realize that. Yes. I just. We just didn't talk about it so much. So I just wasn't connecting the dots back then.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I was busy I was young, I was doing my thing. I was career, you know, I just didn't really connect the dots and think that much about Jeffrey, you know, until towards the end, the call about that rock star in Ghislaine. And then right after my girlfriend, something horrible happened to her. Speaking to other girls, I was just like, what is going on here? And so the last time he called me, I was like, I didn't want to meet with him, but I was going to confront him. And so I went up to his, you know, house and walked in the door and, you know, sat down in front of him and was like, okay, what's going on? Like, I don't like what's going on. And I flat out said to him, I know what happened with my girlfriend. And he didn't like the fact that I knew because she probably wasn't supposed to tell anybody. And now I know something. The guy saw on the island.

Now, this same guy, like, I was not.

I was not good, and he didn't like that. And because I'd always been the type, okay, did everything right, didn't say anything. He really liked me because I was probably, you know, perfect victim, but not in the end. And when I said that, Tim, he was like, you know, I like to have things on people. Like, duh, like, look around, all the cameras everywhere. He didn't say that, but I knew that there were cameras everywhere and he recorded everything. And so when he said that to me, I like to have things on people. I was just like, I didn't understand it, but I didn't like it, you know? And I'm thinking, okay, what. What's going on here? And his. And his eyes were different because before it was like, he liked Lisa, you know, and now the last phone call, I didn't do what he said. And then now I'm standing up to him, and then he just was like.

I was. Something bad happened that day. Never. He was never the same in my eyes. So something bad happened with him? Yeah. And I left.

[B]

And that was when he did something bad to you?

[A]

Yeah, that day. And I left. And that was his way of saying to me, you better shut up and don't say anything. And I didn't. And sometimes he would call me and say, are the press calling you? Is somebody calling you? Are you talking? I was like, I would never say anything, Jeffrey. And that was it. And if press called me, never would say. I would never say anything.

[B]

So he would call you to make sure that you weren't talking?

[A]

Yeah, that's the only thing, I never saw him again after that day. But he would call me just to make sure you're quiet, you're not saying anything, because that's when he was being investigated.

[B]

Right. And explain to me, you've said, and you said it right now, that if the press would call you, you would never say anything. Why not?

[A]

So you're talking about back then. Yeah, why not? I knew he was a powerful person. I knew he had things on people. I knew he had powerful people in his orbit, you know, and. And I kind of felt like he was. He was setting people up and he was using us girls to do so. And we were all kind of figuring it out, but nothing like we know today. We just didn't like it. And so I wanted just to get away from him. Yeah, that was all. I just didn't want to go back there ever again. And, you know, I just packed up my bags. Literally, it was in like a month. I packed up my bags and I moved from New York City to Los Angeles. And I knew he never frequented Los Angeles as much as much.

[B]

What year was that?

[A]

2004. And I moved to LA and I didn't go back to New York, you know, for many years.

[B]

It is crazy how long this went on for.

[A]

Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, I'm only speaking out now because I understand those years and how much I was involved. And I didn't even know I was.

[B]

Involved, but even you speaking out, it came out slowly, right?

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

You didn't immediately come out and say, okay, I was a victim.

[A]

I'm still finding out stuff from this week at Capitol Hill. Bombshell stuff. I'm still finding out bombshell stuff. Stuff that's gut wrenching because I have, like, this past and I'm feeling. And now I'm realizing as more survivors come forward, like, are you serious? That's a missing link that I just thought was something normal for me that I had worked hard for. And now you're telling me that you went there and you did this too. There are so many layers to Jeffrey Epstein. There are so many layers to this, the deceit that it's just mind boggling as the fouls are released. And then you find out more.

It's something in me because I've always thought a little bit differently than most people. I'm just saying that because that's the way I feel. And something in me, when he died was like a resurrection. It was like the Lisa is back. That was always strong.

[B]

Yeah. The thing putting you Down.

[A]

Yeah. The thing that put me down and made me scared, all those. I couldn't speak out about my real truth or tell anybody. I was just like, okay, now I need to. I wasn't ready to speak out, Trust me. But I wanted to know answers. And around that time, as Virginia Giuffre was speaking out, that bold, beautiful, courageous woman, and I saw her and I was like, oh, I think that's the girl I saw on the island. And she's talking about so and so very powerful people. But there was one in particular. I was like, oh, girl, you're telling the truth. Truth. And I said, I've got you. And I called her up, and I called up other survivors, and I was like, how can I help you guys? And a lot of them were underage. You know, I wasn't. So when I spoke up, I was really just speaking up for the underage girls. I wasn't even ready to talk about my story. I didn't even know that my story was exactly like everybody else's. That took time. And so I really only spoke out in 2019 and 2020. If you see me in every documentary in 2020, I did three. One about Jeffrey, one about Ghislaine, and one about Andrew. And everything was just to support the survivors. He wasn't even about to talk about me. I didn't want to. I was so ashamed. I didn't want to. What are people gonna think? I was in the mauling business? What was my part in this? You know, I had to figure everything out first before I would speak out about it. And I was also deeply ashamed of it. So, you know, Virginia speaking out. I just love her so much because she's the one who gave me the courage. She did that, you know, and if it wasn't for her, it probably would have taken a lot more time. But I knew she was telling the truth from the very beginning. And so that's how it started. I didn't start really owning my story and maybe till 2022, but it's because now I'm deposed for cases. I have to start talking about it. Between Virginia and Rena. Oh, two survivors fighting each other, who I knew both of them, some stories with both of them. So I was deposed for that. And that was a very important deposition. And I had to start telling my story, and that's when I started telling my story. My attorneys had to start telling the story. JP Morgan case and the discovery with that woo. We found out a lot with that. Those emails were eye opening for a Lot of survivors. Because it connected the dots between a lot of the mauling agencies and Jeffrey, in which there was hundreds of models that were assaulted or abused or trafficked through Epstein.

[B]

It's just the scale of this is insane. Mm.

[A]

So that's how I started figuring things out.

[B]

So the first few years, Virginia Giuffre, who, by the way, committed suicide earlier this year. She did. I get emotional talking about it because she was so incredibly brave. Obviously, I've never met her, but I've heard people speak about her, and, yeah, it takes so much courage to do what she did. And you mentioned earlier how so many of the survivors, including you, you try to sort of hide it, right? You try to hide the shame. In many cases of survivors, there are people who just can't take the pain anymore and end their lives.

[A]

It's a cycle of abuse. It really is. It's like she was trapped in it. Childhood abuse, Epstein and Ghislaine, domestic violence. Like, in the end, it was terrible for her. And, yeah.

It'S.

Yeah, it's a tough one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She should have been with us at Capitol Hill. She should have been there.

[B]

Her brother was there, right?

[A]

Oh, gosh. And he's phenomenal. Yeah. He was there speaking for her and his wife, Amanda.

[B]

Yeah, I heard him speak. It was incredible.

[A]

Oh, he's just. Every time he speaks, I just start bawling. You know, it's just because, like, she was guiding. She was brave. She was brave. I mean, she was trafficked to over 40 men.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. So the first few years, when you first heard her speak out, you. You thought, okay, I need to back her up. But you still weren't comfortable sharing your story, which is so understandable, by the way. At what point did you decide, okay, this is the only way that. That it was important for you to share your own story, your own story of being a victim.

[A]

I think it's because I knew many, many girls that were assaulted back then that were like me in New York, but nobody wanted to go forward because, you know, they, through Jeffrey, had went through four years of university or got prestigious jobs or met their husbands. You know, there's many visas into work. You know, there's just so many things that they wanted to protect. And I get it. And they have kids now. I think for myself, if I had been one of those girls, that life had turned out great like that and had a support system, I probably wouldn't have spoken out either. But when I wanted to speak out or at least connect the dots for myself, it Was because I was in a relationship at the time. And when he. When he died, I went to him, and I really wanted to tell him, like, you know, what happened to me, and let's figure it out together.

[B]

So when Jeffrey Epstein died.

[A]

Yeah, I. Just before I started speaking out, I went to my partner at the time, and I just wanted to know, like, can you listen to me? Can you be a safe place for me?

[B]

And was this the first person you were ready to tell?

[A]

He was the first person I was in love with. We had blended our families together. This is someone that, you know, should have a safe space for me. And he saw the way I reacted when he died. You know, was hyperventilating, and it was emotional, but he kind of just looked at me, and he didn't really say anything. And I ran off to the bedroom. And then a few days later, you know, I came to him and I just said, you know, I'm ready to tell you. Like, I want to tell you what happened to me back then, because I. I don't understand it, and I want to talk about it. The first time you never told Anyone, it was 15 years later. Fifteen years later, I've never told anyone. Besides, the girls have kind of gone through the same thing back then, and this was the person I loved. And he couldn't. He couldn't hold any space for me whatsoever. He literally put his hand in my face, was like, I don't want to hear about it. And I was. And I remember that was the next moment where I was just like, are you. Why would. Why would you not want to listen to me? Why would you not want to understand this? I mean, maybe today people know more about Jeffrey, and maybe they want to understand it, but, like, 2019, he just died. And a couple months ago, he did reach out to me and he said, I'm sorry I wasn't there for you. And I just thought maybe he was a playboy, and I don't give a shit what his excuse was. I was your life partner. Like, you should have listened to me and had many conversations with me, held my hand, hugged me, been there for me because I was ready to start figuring things out. And he was like, nope, I'm not listening. So now, all of a sudden, I have this man who I just wanted to get away from and not be in a relationship with anymore.

[B]

I just.

[A]

He never even. A year of speaking out, never even came to me and said, you know, I'm ready to listen to you and be there for you. Never did for years. So now I'm in the wrong relationship. No support, no family support, friends that are kind of shying away from it as well. So all I was desperate to know the pieces of my past. I just reached out to survivors and I just formed relationships with them, and they were absolutely incredible. We have this, like, bond together that we still do today. That's what you saw on Capitol Hill, was us coming together, supporting each other. You know, just being that safe space to cry with and just, like, understand the story, because it's very deep and it's very confusing. And we still, to this day, are still putting pieces together. And that's why I speak out, really, is because you need a support system. If you have experienced abuse or an assault in any way, really, you need to talk about it with somebody. Not as being public as I am, but you need to have that place.

[B]

There's nothing more powerful in the world than a group of women with a mission. Oh, gosh, I truly believe that.

[A]

Powerful.

[B]

I came to this realization when I've done a lot of stories about drugs abuse and drugs and drug trafficking and speaking to women who've lost their kids and how it becomes their life mission, that this never happen again to anyone else. It is often the women, and there's a lot of power that comes with it. So it's incredible what you guys have done. And talk to me a little bit for our listeners and viewers who don't know. Tell me about Capitol Hill. Why did you guys decide you needed to speak out? And what was that like?

[A]

It was important. It was important. The timing was right. I think a lot of people don't realize that we're all mothers now, and our children are the same ages that we were when we were abused by Jeffrey Epstein. That's a very powerful piece, because if you talk to other abuse survivors, they don't realize they're abuse until they have a child and see the child at the same age they were and realize how innocent they really are. You really are. Because when you're a kid, you know, 15, 22, you think that you know everything and you're so mature and I can handle this. No, you really can't. So coming together was just the most important thing. We were ready at that time. You know, each administration had let us down. And now, you know, Trump led with, I'm going to release these files. And we believed him, you know, so we were getting angry at the fact that he wasn't sticking or standing up for us and doing what he said he was going to do. So when the Bill came up with Massie and Ro Khanna. We just wanted to support them, and it just kind of threw together really quickly. But we all banded together and was like, we have to do this. And we were nervous about it, but we worked on our speeches and we said what we wanted to say and get it off our chest. And I was standing there just listening. I was one of the ones to go, one of the last ones to go, and. And each one was coming out and telling a story. And I was sitting there just fuming, like, this is not right. This is not right. Like, no one's gonna listen to us. They're just telling our story, and we need to do something that tells them, you know what. We are powerful. We know the truth. We saw things, too. And that's why I had said, you know, talking to survivors and confidentially, like, we know. Let's put together a list ourselves. And it was a very powerful moment because I said that kind of, like last minute, but it was because it's like you are just looking at us like we're victims here. We're not. We're powerful women now, and I'm gonna show you just how powerful we are. So it was just kind of that moment, and they took notice, you know?

[B]

Yeah. The idea is, if you don't release the list, we will.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

The importance of the list is because it's accountability. And for you guys, it's reclaiming your story too. Right? It's putting it all out there.

[A]

And it's not just a list for us. For us, it's the entire files. Connects the dots between the victims, the perpetrators, the locations.

The call logs, who's in the book. It just puts it all together. The institutions. I mean, it goes very deep. So we just wanted to get answers, and we deserve that. And the American people want answers, so that's what we were pushing for.

[B]

Right. And why. If they don't release the list or the full list, what would. Why not? I think people would ask, why don't you guys just, you know, who they. The people, you know, the names. You know, a lot of these people, you know, what was. What it was like, can you. Why not do it yourselves? And can you explain to people why you want them?

[A]

Well, from a survivor point of view, yeah, we can name some names of who was there at some parties or on the island and things like that, but we don't know who was actually abusing everyone. We only know our own personal experiences. We don't know exactly what happened because a lot of survivors they don't speak up or they don't say, or they're scared. Mostly people are frightened. So it's more about releasing the list so that we. Releasing the file so that we can put it all together. It has to be everything in its entirety to put it all together.

[B]

Shining the brightest light.

[A]

It can be each survivor saying, this person was there or this one abused me, because then now all of a sudden.

Those people are very powerful. Endless funds that we don't have.

Many survivors get death threats. We don't want those sorry public people, but we don't want death threats. And we, you know, we want to live happy, beautiful lives. And it's a risk. It's just a huge, huge risk. So I never said that I was going to stand up there and read a full list. I don't know where people got that from. I mean, Margie Taylor Greene stood. Stood up. Members of Congress, and we have immunity. We'll do it on the House floor. But it does not need to come from us, and it will not come from us because the FBI and the DOJ has everything.

[B]

And the honor shouldn't be on you guys, actually.

[A]

No, it should not be. Why? Why do people even say that and want us to do that? That's not fair. We have done our part and we continue to do our part and we give it over to the people who are supposed to do their part. So talk to them.

[B]

You said some interesting things about President Trump, about how you think there's too much focus on him and that is actually taking the focus away from other people that you feel are much more responsible or that we're actually in. Can you tell me about that?

[A]

Well, yeah, people think, oh, you're a Trump supporter. And it's just. No, I just want the answers. I just want people to know what's going on. That's all my focus is in, is on. And I am here to support survivors that can't speak up for themselves. The hundreds of them, if not thousands and not millions around the world. But I just want answers. I want people to know what's going on. I don't care about this whole Trump thing of just taking Trump down. It's going to happen. It's going to happen. There's plenty of people that are going to take him down if they want to take him down. That's not. My agenda is taking Trump down. It's just not. And it doesn't have to be because it's your agenda. And that's not my focus. My focus is to get the files out. Of course, we have to go through Trump, but there are many other powerful people involved and we have the Congress on our side. So we have a lot of the politicians on our side at this point. And that was my focus, was to talk to them, sit down with the Democratic Women's Caucus and a few Republicans showed up, sit with them and share stories with them. And, you know, I mean, one in four women have abuse. So you can do the math of the women in the room who shared abuse. So they're there for us.

[B]

Why do you think it's important for all this for you guys to have these files out?

[A]

To connect the dots.

Basically, to understand what's going on in America with our privileged, wealthy people and hopefully to stop it if people are aware of it. It's going to be a little harder to abuse children. And we want to protect the children. Everybody needs to understand this is about the children, teenagers, young women who were. Who were abused.

Through a system. And system is not okay. It's not okay. It's not okay. And I will always fight for that. It's not for me. You know, it's for. It's for the thousands out there that were affected by this sex trafficking ring and by Jeffrey Epstein.

[B]

Right. And for future generations. Right. For our kids.

[A]

It's getting worse. If it was getting better, you know, But I'm up here because it's getting worse.

[B]

Yeah. You're in a position where I think many people think, oh, this. How deep can this get? Right. Then we get into conspiracy theory territory. But you've actually peeked behind the curtain and you've been there, and you know how deep this can get.

[A]

I know how evil it can get. Jeffrey was so charming and so wonderful to a lot of people. He was evil.

[B]

Yeah. But he was also not acting alone. That's what's scary. Right. He had so many people that were benefiting or allowing him to do what he was doing.

[A]

Well, then you just answered your own question when you asked me why I don't focus on Trump. You know, because it's not about just Trump and Jeffrey. Right.

[B]

Marjorie Taylor Greene has said that she was willing to go in Congress and talk about the list and. Right. To protect you guys. To protect you guys.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What do you think of that? What do you think of her in this situation? What do you think of her?

[A]

I think she would do what she said she was going to do.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

I think she's fighting for us and fighting for what's right. You know, she's been called a traitor for it, you know, that's not easy.

[B]

Yeah. By President Trump. Yeah.

[A]

No, because when I met with a. When I met with the Republicans Women's Caucus, they, like, promised us they were gonna come to the vigil with us later on that day and celebrate, and majority didn't show up.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. So I think they wanted to.

You know.

[B]

Why do you think they didn't show up?

[A]

They're not like Margie Taylor Greene, who was like, I'm gonna do what's right. I'm gonna do what's right, no matter there's consequences.

[B]

Why do you think she took up this?

[A]

Cause I think she. Hopefully it's because she really cares about the survivors in the United States.

[B]

I have to say, it's not the person that I expected to take up this cause. Right. She's very controversial and has said some very controversial things. But it's been surprising.

In kind of a good way. Right. To see somebody who's brave enough to stand up to the president.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. We don't care if it's Democrat or Republican. We just care about the ones who have the courage to stand up for us.

[B]

And in a way, she was saying it is not okay to put the onus on the victims to risk possibly their lives or even risk legal threats.

[A]

We all risk that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We all do.

[B]

Right. If you, right here, right now, decided to give me a list of names that, you know, had benefited from Jeffrey Epstein's.

[A]

No, I have it right here. You want to read it off?

[B]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, what could happen to you? You could be sued, you could be threatened. I don't think people realize that.

[A]

That's why I don't know how they don't realize that.

[B]

And the onus should not be on you. Again, I'm going to repeat this because I think it's so important to understand, and it is so depressing and frustrating and makes you angry to think that this has been going on for so many years and that the government, several different governments and presidents, have not done their jobs and have not stood by you guys and tried to protect you.

[A]

Yeah, that's very true.

[B]

Just wanted to say that because it is. It makes me so angry, particularly when I saw you guys testifying in front me of. Of Capitol Hill. That was a moment for me. I mean, obviously I've been following this story like everybody else, but seeing you guys all together there and demanding something that I know is very complicated, but also should not be that complicated. It is very clear whose side you should stand by here. And it's the victims, and it's you and the other powerful women who've come out and spoken out.

[A]

Yes, you're right.

[B]

Talk to me about.

Therapy, because I know it's been so important for you, and what. What? Yeah. What has it done to you? And also being able to speak to other women about your own experiences.

[A]

Yeah. I was kind of against therapy in the beginning because I went to several different therapists and just sat there talking the whole time, and it just never did anything for me.

J.P. morgan, with the settlement for the women, gave us five years of therapy.

We can do retreats. We can do anything for us to heal. Thank you for that. Like, thank you for that. That is more powerful than any money. And I didn't even realize it. So I chose to do EMDR therapy, and it just literally changed my life.

[B]

What is that?

[A]

So that's when they use, like, rapid eye movements to go into that part of your brain that's your memory.

[B]

I've heard about this. Yeah.

[A]

And then you go into the parts that you talk about it, but then you put it into, like, a little bo. Safe place, and you take it out when you need it, and you need to talk about these shameful things and all these things, but then you feel safe talking about it, and you get angry. You get angry going through it, you know, because you're starting to realize things. You have to be ready to go through this. And I was just at that point where I was just ready. I was ready to release the shame, you know, that people put on me and.

[B]

And that you didn't.

[A]

And they didn't deserve. Yeah, I put on myself, but, like, a lot of people put on me, and it was. I didn't deserve to carry it. I wanted to put it back on where it belonged, and I wanted to just own my story, really own it and understand it. So this therapy, just, like, I would go through it for, like, two hours and leave, and I'd be like. Everyone knew to stay away from me for, like, the next day or two because it was like, I was angry. But then all of a sudden, it's like this, like, release, and then you feel really good again, and it'd be angry and release. And so I had to go through that. Until now I go through it. I go twice a week, two hours a day still, and I need it because obviously all this stuff that we're. Stress and everything else, but to just. To talk through it and understand it and then always understand how I relate that to childhood and relationships and through the time, knowing Jeffrey. And it just. It just has been life changing for me. The powerful woman that you see today, I believe it's from the transformation that I went through with emd Arthur. I feel like if I didn't go through that therapy, particularly for me, that may not be good for everybody else, but, like, for me, it turned me into the person that I always knew I was back when I set out to conquer the world at 17 years old. Right. And so now I feel like I'm back to, like, Lisa again. I'm back to myself again. And now I can have strong boundaries, which I really never had before in relationships. You can tell how I got into the situation, didn't really have the strongest boundaries and know how to say no and walk away and have that power where I feel like I have it now with everything. I'm not just talking about with men and relationships. I'm talking about with everyone in my life, family who never.

Stood up for me, never supported me, never was there for me, never even to this day, even text me to say, I'm proud of you. Oh, yeah, stuff like that. It's just like, it would always affect me deeply throughout my life that I wasn't close with my siblings or my parents or I had a best friend that just when I was going through speaking out, just drop me and abandoned me. Someone I loved. It was like a divorce. It was more powerful than my divorce.

[B]

Was it a man or a woman?

[A]

No. My best friend or girlfriend that I'd known since I was, like, practically a teenager.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

You know, and people, for whatever reasons, when you start speaking out and you have a platform like I do, people drop away.

[B]

They.

[A]

I don't know what it is, but they don't want to support you. And there's pretenders or, you know, vague support, you know, but, you know, when they really don't support. And then you have to really find through therapy, your real people who support you and you know who those are, you know, ones liking your post, commenting one's giving you phone calls. The ones when you do powerful things, they text you and say, I'm proud of you.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, the first time I spoke out at Capitol Hill, thousands of people all around the world, how proud of. They say, I'm proud of you. You know how validating that was to me? Because I never heard that growing up. I never heard that from my parents, and to this day, I still never heard it from them.

[B]

Watching you on Capitol Hill recently, for me, I knew you were gonna come on the podcast. I got chills I got. I was, I was very. Yeah, I was like, wow. She. This is because you realize what this means, right? And seeing all of those women go up there and talk and be brave enough to talk, it's. It's really. Yeah, it's really brave and powerful.

[A]

Yeah. And each woman that was speaking out had their own feeling of why they were doing it. Maybe for their inner child, maybe for their children, maybe for future children, maybe just to get justice, maybe to release the files. But I always spoke directly to survivors. Like, I always wanted to be that person that was standing up for the ones that were silent, you know, that was what I wanted, is to speak to them. You know, that's just. That has always been my mission. That's why I have the podcast really, was to give survivor voices.

[B]

Wait, tell me about your podcast.

[A]

Well, I CR so crazy with my podcast. Damn emdr. Because the EMDR gave me like this, like this fury inside of me. It made me realize like, what the heck am I doing still in the malling business? You know, the business that kind of destroyed me, the business that's very fucked up, the business that is still abusing women. As I was still sitting there in the office and like having girls come in and telling me they were felt up by a photographer and this client did this and, you know, and this director did that. I was like, I fucking hate this. I hate this. So I had gotten a little bit of settlement money from J.P. morgan and I said, you know what? I'm going to take a quarter of this money and I'm going to put it for survivors. And I created a podcast and paid for it myself and hired a studio, hired a team, hired social media. And I just didn't, I didn't, I did. I moved so quickly that I was just like, this is for the survivors out there. And I started this podcast where I said, I'm gonna tell my story. And the number one mission with my podcast was education empowerment for survivors. But it was education to educate all those people and trolls online who constantly victim blame and victim shame and say horrible things to you online all day long, saying horrible things to all the survivors. It's just, it's so bad. And it, but it. When people read that, they start to agree with it. And I just wanted people to understand this journey. Like, I wasn't a money hungry whore looking for Jeffrey to help me out. I literally was wrapped up into this system and hated him too, and always wanted to be out of it and didn't want to do anything or have Anything to do with him. And when I started realizing what was going on, it was just like an understanding of how people are pulled into serial predators, like P. Diddy and Cosby and Weinstein and Nassaur and all the predators, how it all happens. I wanted to explain it.

Episode through episode, not only through my story, but having a survivor come on and tell their story of their serial predator of domestic violence, stalking, and, unfortunately, childhood abuse. A lot of it familial, which stuff, like, just blew my mind that I didn't even know was out there. I didn't even know it was even possible. I never even thought of it. Of the stuff that I'm learning about that would give me nightmares.

[B]

Yeah, it gets so dark.

[A]

It would get so dark, and it would give me nightmares. But I wanted those people to have their voices because I would fly them in, put them in a hotel, Uber them to the set, and they felt so good and powerful. And they would sit there and they would tell their full arc story, from what happened to them to how they overcame it. Whatever therapy or whatever healing mechanism they used and what they're doing now, which is usually they have a podcast or they wrote a book, you know, or they're a therapist or whatever it is that they're doing to help back, you know, or on TikTok, whatever it is.

[B]

And I'm assuming this is not easy for you either, because you're. In a way, I mean, yes, it's amazing that you're doing it, but hearing these stories, it's all almost like you. It's a re. Traumatization.

[A]

Oh, gosh.

[B]

Right. Right.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. I had no idea how bad it was. That's when I started the second day of EMDR therapy. So I would do one day for myself, and then I would do the second day for the trauma I would take on in my podcast. Because you don't see it, obviously, because it's edited, but I would, like, have emotional breakdowns during when someone's telling me a story of being raped at 8 years old by a stranger in a bathroom.

[B]

Why did you cut that out? Your reaction?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Why?

[A]

Because I just felt like I was just constantly becoming a crybaby through Em. So before emdr, I never cried. Ever. I was a strong person. I never cried. Never. After emdr, I cry every single day. Like, anything. I mean, I was the one. Yeah, I cry all the time now. It's just like, right, I'm ready. I was crying during this talk.

[B]

I cry. I cry all the time. Too.

[A]

Yeah, but you're in touch with now. You're in touch with your true self. I'm in trou. I'm healing. And crying is actually. I used to think it was a weakness, but now I. I know it's power. It's like we're in touch with our emotions. It's actually an emotional intelligence. People who cry, that's why we should let men cry. Let it out. Go ahead. You know, so I learned that, and through the podcast, it was traumatizing because the most traumatizing thing was knowing almost every story was a long little piece of my story and realizing that was really difficult for me.

[B]

Yeah. And in a way, you're helping them share their story. And in a way, they're helping you by sharing their story. Right?

[A]

Well, it comes from sharing stories. That's why podcasting is so popular. This is why people say, oh, you have a short attention span. So we're just gonna do 30 second reels now. People listen to two hour long podcasts.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They don't have a short attention span. It just has to hit them where it really, really. They feel it. And people. One in four boys, I think one in three girls, you know, resonate with this material, you know, whether they are ready to talk about it or not.

[B]

Yeah. I've done stories about sexual abuse, and I think it was one in every four women has had. Has been sexually abused in their lives.

[A]

That's scary. I'm sorry. That's a scary statistic.

[B]

And in Native American communities, it's one in every three women, which is insane.

[A]

Yeah. No, it's funny that you say Native American community because Teresa Fernandez, Congresswoman Teresa Fernandez, she has made this whole journey for us survivors at Capitol Hill so empowering. She's the leader of the Democratic caucus, and she brought us into the room and she told us about the native community and shared personal things with us, and we just all burst into tears, you know, it was so powerful. She stood up for us, you know, and she was the last person I saw before I got on the airplane. Just two days. Was it yesterday or two days ago? I can't remember. She was the last person that we saw and had lunch with us and sat with us. Beautiful woman.

[B]

Oh, wow. I realize I forgot to ask you about. You mentioned your reaction. What were you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When you found out that Jeffrey Epstein had died, what was your. What was it like for you?

[A]

I've never had anyone close to me die yet. Most people can't say that, but I haven't really had someone in the immediate family or close friend die. That was the first time I had experienced death. 2019, when he died. But it was overwhelming. In the moment he died, I had a visceral response. It was like I couldn't stop. I don't know how to explain it. When you hyperventilate or you just. I don't know, it's a breakdown. I don't know what it was. I mean, I definitely tried to compose myself. Cause he wasn't giving me anything, you know, So I was just like. Didn't understand. It was the first time I had witnessed somebody dying that I knew really closely. That meant something to me. But then all the stuff I knew had gone on. When somebody dies, it's released. So I didn't really know what was going on and how to process it. It really didn't.

[B]

Yeah. And again, in many ways it was a moment that changed your life too, because you realized. It took a while, I guess, of course, and understandably so. But it was a moment that you realized, okay, now I can finally speak.

[A]

Out and tell my truth. It's so crazy. Cause I'm writing a memoir right now. And I was with my gross writer yesterday and we were talking about the book and I was like. And we were talking about his death in 2019. And I said, that is the pivotal moment of the book. That's the Before Lisa. You know, I mean, there was a Before Lisa and after from back then of the abuse. But this is the Before Lisa who kept it a secret for so long. And this is the After Lisa I turned into a different person. Yeah. The moment he died.

[B]

You should start the book with that moment, with that day.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

I think so, yeah. And then you go back in time.

[A]

Good advice. That was it. That was the moment that changed my life. If he was alive today, still in jail, I wouldn't even be. I would never be here. Cuz I would still hear his voice. Like. Don't you ever say anything?

[B]

Do you think. What do you think happened when he died? Do you think he committed suicide?

[A]

No, I've never thought. I've never thought that. It's funny because I was on with Chris Como at CNN and Jeffrey's brother Mark was on right before me. And he was like. And I could, you know the things your ear. And he's like yelling and Jeffrey didn't die, he was murdered. I mean, Jeffrey didn't commit suicide. He was murdered. He was murdered. And he was in my ear and it was like. But I believe him. I believe what, you know, his brother says.

[B]

Yeah. You believe he. He was killed? Yeah.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Of course. Too much on people.

[B]

It's not how I wanted it to end.

[A]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[B]

No, it's good.

[A]

I mean, just goes like.

[B]

No. Yeah. And I love that we talked about therapy, that we talked about your podcast, that you're writing a book and your role in supporting other victims. And I. I keep thinking about that moment where when Virginia Giuffre came out and you realized, oh, I'm not gonna let her do this alone, and I'm gonna back her up. And that was.

[A]

Yeah, it was her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But maybe I would have eventually. But it was her. Because seeing her was my story.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It was a piece of my story.

[B]

Yeah. But I think a lot of people, I mean, had that opportunity and didn't do it for their own reasons. I'm not. Everybody has their own story and reasons to do so. Or. No, not. But. But yeah. It was an incredibly brave thing for you to do, because it's one thing to just keep the story to yourself, and it's your decision when to say it. When you realize that somebody else is putting themselves out there.

[A]

Well, people think she's putting herself out there for money, but she was paid a lot of money that isn't by happiness. She didn't live to spend the money. It's not about the money. It's about justice.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

And I do wish she was alive to see the prince come down. Her hard work actually paid off.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I hope more princes will come down, and I hope this whole case is. Comes wide open and we see it all. Do you think it's gonna happen eventually in our lifetimes?

[A]

I don't know. Those files are. Those are a lot of files to go through, so hopefully.

[B]

Well, you're doing an amazing job in trying to get that out there. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you so much. This has been so incredible. You're so brave and beautiful, and you're just very inspiring. So thank you for coming on the hintern.

[A]

You inspire me, too, and you're welcome.

[B]

Thank you.