B (2:08)

Yes.

A (2:09)

That's so interesting. Okay, let's start. I'm so happy to have you. Welcome to the Hidden Third.

B (2:14)

Thank you so much for having me. I'm a huge fan. Oh, I appreciate you.

A (2:19)

Thank you. So wait, so you grew up in the Lower east side you just said, right?

B (2:22)

Yeah, like Rivington and Forsyth street, you know, in the Lower east side in the 80s, 90s, 2000s. You know, was a different story from what you see now. You know, the gallery poodle walking, the bar crawling type of neighborhood. You know, it was a very drug infested neighborhood. You know, I remember as a kid, like just seeing about 100 people line up to buy heroin.

A (2:46)

Wow.

B (2:47)

You know, every 10 steps we took, there was heroin needles. You know, I mean, the drug problem is still bad, but, you know, I seen the people that sold those drugs and those people had the big chains and the nice clothes and the cars and the woman. And you know, for me that, that looked like real success, you know.

A (3:09)

What did your parents do?

B (3:11)

My dad worked in bodegas. You know, he worked in. When he got here and 1983, worked in East New York. You know, rough time, probably on the Madagascar, one of the worst blocks in East New York. So he had to carry a gun every day.

A (3:30)

Wow.

B (3:32)

My mom worked in the sewing factories, you know, back then and Bleecker street and. And then my dad eventually had a bodega in front of my building as a. When I was a kid.

A (3:43)

Oh, did you have brothers and sisters growing up?

B (3:45)

Yeah, I got two. I got, well, two from my. Both my parents, two older sisters and a younger brother. My brother is a city council member for downtown Manhattan, actually. And we grew up in, you know, head to toe. My sisters became very successful too. You know, my. My sister was. I don't know if I could say this, but like, she was. Became the first Latina woman to become executive directors, reach the executive director status at Goldman Sachs.

A (4:16)

Oh, wow.

B (4:17)

Then now is like working for Merrill lynch in London. She's like CFO on the three companies under their branch.

A (4:24)

Cool. So were you. Did your parents go to college?

B (4:28)

Yeah, my mom went to college in Dominican Republic. She was a teacher in Dominican Republic. But like, they grew up in the middle of nowhere. Ganete, which is like a small little town, like 30 minutes away from like San Francisco de Mar, which is next to Santiago. You know, it's like they're in the boondocks, you know, by the way. Yeah. Oh, it's so beautiful. And like, yeah, my. They used to send me because I used to get in trouble and they. As a punishment as like a Dominican kid in New York. It's a, it's a funny joke. But they send us for the summer, like, yo, you know, you got in trouble, you're gonna work the fields or whatever. So I used to work the cacao fields.

A (5:08)

Wow. Huge culture shock. Yeah, I'm sure going back there when you were a kid.

B (5:12)

Yeah, well, yeah, well, I mean, I back. So I went in, I went when I was like five. So I briefly like, remember that time and then I remember going back when I was like 14 because I got in trouble, you know, and then.

A (5:25)

Why did you get in trouble? Was that when you started in the drug business or doing drugs?

B (5:30)

Yeah, so I, I started at like price smoking at the age of 10, 11, weed, you know. And then eventually like the. My cousins who lived in the building and on Rivington street, like we lived in the same floor. It was like mostly all Dominicans, a couple Puerto Rican families and a Mexican family that lived in the building, but every floor sold drugs, you know. And so like I had cousins and pretty much every floor and they were, you know, I was buying ounces of weed from them and then I started bagging it up and selling it in school and eventually.

A (6:06)

Because. Because you realize you could make money from it.

B (6:09)

Yeah, I mean, at the time I was working for my dad and his bodega downstairs in front of the building. I, I was 10 years old. I was opening up the store, like cleaning all the shelves, mopping, sweeping. And then after school, like, same thing, you know, going back to working the register. You know, sometimes they put me in the. To cook. My dad used to make some tacos and sandwiches. So we used to like hustle and do all that stuff. But I was doing everything for him. He was just. And then he was not paying. He was paying me $30 a week with a sandwich, you know. So I used to be frustrated, you know, cuz I was broke, you know, and so when I got real money off of selling weed at that time, I. I was like, pretty content.

A (6:54)

Who are you selling weed to? To just the other students.

B (6:57)

Students, kids from the block, you know, people that I grew up with.

A (7:01)

How much money were you making at the time?

B (7:03)

$300 a week.

A (7:04)

Wow, that's a lot of money. And you were like 13. Wow.

B (7:07)

Yeah, that's.

A (7:08)

Yeah, that's good money. And, and did your parents know at the time that you were making that kind of money?

B (7:14)

They saw stuff, you know, that I had, like sneakers and clothes and, you know, all that stuff, you know, like, I was probably the first kid in my class, you know, to have a cell phone, you know, the Nokia. No, it was not the Nokia ones. It was the, the BlackBerry. No, before, before that was the StarTac. Okay, so the StarTac, like that, it was like a 1996 phone, you know, I remember 97 phone. You know, I was. And I brought that to school. Everybody's like, What? You know, sure. But I had a beeper, too, you know, at that time, so I was selling weed through my beeper line, you know, writing my phone number.

A (7:52)

You were like a real, like, young teen dealer.

B (7:55)

Yeah, it never stopped, you know, it never stopped.

A (7:57)

And so did. Did your parents, you think they suspected that you were. That's what you were doing, you were getting the money from?

B (8:03)

Well, my dad knew for very. He caught on very early, you know, and then he was just like, be careful, you know, I think he embraced it more, you know, it was hard times, you know, it was not like we was. Had a line down the block because of Instagram posts, you know, it was like, yo, us putting me writing in a magic marker and putting a sign on the door saying, like, hey, sandwiches are 50 off today, or something like that, you know, it was. It was different times, you know, and like, minimum wage in the city was like 350, you know, so.

A (8:37)

So in a way, yeah. As much as your dad probably didn't condone it, it was helpful for the family because you guys were.

B (8:45)

Yeah, I mean, he was just. He turned a blind eye. But my mom was like, my, hell no. Like, my mom is. She thinks marijuana kills people. You know, she's old school, Dominican Catholic. Yeah. You know, she was.

A (8:58)

She wasn't happy.

B (8:59)

Hell no.

A (8:59)

Yeah. But then you became really good at it. Tell me about that.

B (9:03)

Yeah, so how it grew was that basically at like 16, 17, I was on a corner on a milk crate, you know, selling weed, coke, 24 hours a day. I, like, literally slept on the front of the bodega, you know, two blocks away from my mom's house on Broom and Eldridge. And I never stopped. Never stopped for like three years straight. I was just on the block, you know, people knew me. I would brush my teeth on the corner. I would, like, buy new clothes and just get dressed in, you know, and throw the clothes that I had out, you know, but the hustle never stopped on that corner.

A (9:45)

And then why was it that you were so. What do you think drove you at the time, too? Was it just you really wanted to make a lot of money?

B (9:51)

I always, always, like, aspired to, like, make money, like, because I was. As a kid, like, I don't know, we were broke, you know, and. And I hated the fact, like, it was embarrassing to see, like, my mom to go to, like, Salvation army and, you know, and, like, see. Buy the cheapest shit for us, you know, and pay less. And then the kids, you know, in school, you know, making fun of you and all that stuff. So it's like, I gotta go get it, you know?

A (10:19)

Yeah, I've. It's interesting you say that. I remember interviewing a. Actually here on the podcast, interviewing somebody where he was talking about how money. He became so obsessed with money growing up as a teenager. And I was challenging him on that, you know, the idea of just wanting money. And he said something which I think is obviously so true, which is unless you actually grow up without money, you don't understand what it means to not have it. So you don't understand why it becomes the most important thing in the world for you to figure out how to get money.

B (10:55)

Right, exactly. You know, and at that time, that was that mindset, you know, and my mindset was to be rich, you know, and so I was always rocking around, like, five, $10,000 of cash in my pocket. You know, at times I was figuring out how to fit, like, 50,000, $100,000 in my pocket because I'm transporting drugs to different states.

A (11:16)

And, you know, weren't you afraid that the police. Since you said, like, everybody knew that what you were doing on the corner for all those years were you was. Where was the police?

B (11:25)

They would jump on me, you know, so they were. They were raid me every day. You know, I've been stopped by NYPD over 300 times.

A (11:32)

No way.

B (11:32)

Yeah. You know, I got arrested probably 12 times in my life, you know, around

A (11:37)

there and then even before sort of the bigger prison sentence.

B (11:41)

Yeah. Yeah. Every day I was getting stopped two, three times a day I was getting. But I knew how to hide the drugs, you know, when they were coming out. I know how to put it in my butt crack, you know, and then get searched on the block. Sometimes they would put my pants down, you know, to see if I had it in there, but it wouldn't be

A (11:56)

there, you know, so where were the hiding places?

B (11:59)

So different spots on the corner. You know, I had, like. There was a payphone, you know, and then there was, like. I remember at the time, the bodega had, like, these. These big posters, you know, and then the posters, like, flipped these, like, they were the holders on the posters. So I would, like, stash all my stuff in there, or we, you know, one old school, back in the day thing was, like, I used to see the people that used to sell dope, they used to have, like a. A magnet box. So, like, if the cops are coming, just throw it on the bottom of a car.

A (12:34)

Oh, wow.

B (12:35)

You know, because they would search the bottom of the car, but this would Be magnet magnetically stuck in us.

A (12:41)

It would be really suck if the car was gone once you got back there. No.

B (12:44)

Yeah. There's times that things like that happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (12:47)

You know, what was the first time you.

B (12:49)

I was 13, you know, I was. I. I know. I remember I was with my little brother and my little cousin at the time, and I was selling a couple bags of weed, and I remember, like, you know, smoking with this guy, my boy Chuck, you know, at the time, and we. We smoked a blunt on the block, and like, these grown man just grabbed us up. Well, he grabbed me up, grabbed my wrist, and he said, drop the blunt, and he threw me on the ground.

A (13:19)

And this was undercover cops.

B (13:20)

Undercover cops. You know, it was like they. They ride you around in a paddy wagon all day, picking up one person at a time for a lot of cannabis arrests. And. And that's how it was.

A (13:33)

And in. In that case was you were just smoking a blunt. It wasn't even for possession or for just smoking.

B (13:38)

And I had two bags of weed on me, you know.

A (13:41)

Okay.

B (13:41)

And. And then my brother, at the time, he was 9, I was 13, and he. He had a little starter jacket, and I remember him, like, opening up the starter jacket and opening up his jacket, and he said, don't arrest my brother. I'm part of the dare program. And he had a dare shirt. And I remember, like, he. He said that, and the cops laughed, you know, and so they were like, they. They wrote the report, you know, they had me arrested. They were going to take me in, and they were like, yo, you're 13, man. We're gonna let you go, you know, And I remember, like, them releasing me with my brother, you know, and, you know, went back home. But they called my mom, and I remember my mom, like, saying, like, what? Like, just, you know, cursing me out, you know,

A (14:38)

and you're going back on the streets and continuing.

B (14:40)

And then. Yeah, then I never stopped.

A (14:43)

And so you. Let's just say you didn't have the best relationship with NYPD at the time.

B (14:47)

Nah, absolutely not. But it became a better relationship at one point because Broom and Eldridge was known for the smelliest, dirtiest corner in New York City. It was like a New York Times article wrote about it, but it used to stank because, like, all the, like, chicken poultry is Chinatown, you know, lor east side. So it stink like crazy. And so we would go into the bodega and get a bottle of mistoling and clean the block with a brush deck, and it'll smell so Good. That the. The cops will be like, if you guys clean it and keep it like this, we're not gonna stop you, you know, today.

A (15:27)

And so you kept doing it.

B (15:28)

We kept doing it. Kept cleaning. You know, it was crazy times, you know, stuff that you can't make up,

A (15:34)

you know, and so you would be arrested constantly, and then what would happen? You'd just be released or.

B (15:39)

Yeah, for, like, cannabis charges, you know, a lot of smoking or, like, small amounts of weed possession and stuff like that, you know.

A (15:48)

And then once. Once you started selling cocaine and you start selling on. On the block, on the milk crate. How much money were you making then?

B (15:56)

Then depending. 3,4000 a day, you know, on the day of the week, there was like a day, like, Tuesday nights were crazy nights. And it was. It started changing more because the neighborhood started changing. It was the first neighborhood that I see that ever got gentrified in America. First, right? When we say hipsters, everybody thinks about Williamsburg, but they came to the Lower east side, and it got too expensive in the Lower east side, so they went to Williamsburg, you know, over the bridge.

A (16:27)

Yeah.

B (16:27)

And then it started extending to, like, Bushwick East, New York, all that. Now you see galleries and Crown Heights, you know, uh, but in the Lower east side, it was a Tuesday nights. It was like a raid of hipsters that came to this first bar that opened up. It was like. It was called Happy Endings. And Happy Endings was on broom and four side. And that was like our first marketing round of, like, you know, getting these young kids, like, using all types of drugs, because they were, like, coming up to us like, hey, you got weed? Or we would be like, yo, we got weed and coke and all. And they'd be like, great, you know, and so.

A (17:06)

So these were kids that coming from sort of like the Upper west, you

B (17:11)

know, stuff like that. Yeah, yeah.

A (17:13)

And who had money to spend on drugs, Right? And what kind of drugs were you selling to them?

B (17:17)

Coke, weed, coconut. At the time. Yeah.

A (17:20)

And where were you getting the coke and the weed from?

B (17:24)

You know, I can't talk about that too much, but, like, the weed, mostly different areas, you know, Washington Heights was a big weed spot. You know, they had the best haze.

A (17:38)

Where was it coming from? Do you know?

B (17:40)

People were growing it, you know, in their homes. Yeah, people were growing it in their homes. People were, you know, like, I had boys that were doing. Using the project buildings to grow, because in it, you know, when you. The project buildings are federally owned, so you don't have to pay electricity, so you get free electricity. And it wouldn't, you know, which is

A (17:59)

what you need to grow weed and mass skills. Because the cooling.

B (18:04)

Yep. And that's how people got caught when they use, like, regular spots where, like, the energy bill went too crazy.

A (18:11)

Right.

B (18:11)

And so that brought, like, red flags. But Nycha is free to.

A (18:16)

I didn't know. So it was basically indoor grows at the time all over New York, I guess a lot.

B (18:21)

There's a lot of indoor growers. But then people were bringing stuff from Cali and Florida and Jamaica and all types of Mexico. You know, there was like the Mexican brickweed, you know, which was like seeds and dirt and.

A (18:34)

Yeah.

B (18:34)

Nasty, you know, not great.

A (18:36)

Right.

B (18:36)

But yeah, it made money, you know.

A (18:38)

Yeah. And. And the coke. You can't talk about it.

B (18:42)

The coke. I mean. Yeah, I could talk about it, I guess. You know, the first time was just people from the block. You know, when I was a kid, there was just so much coke on in my neighborhood. You know, basically I bought an eight ball, and then from there just started scaling, you know, and then started buying, like, stuff from, like, uptown and stuff like that. Kilos. And then. Then there was a point where we were, you know, things were being trafficked,

A (19:10)

you know, from out of the country.

B (19:12)

From out of the country? Yeah.

A (19:13)

Do you know where from?

B (19:15)

Puerto Rico. You know, it was. It was. It. You can't go through. I don't think anybody's going through this tactic anymore. But at the time, it was no, you know, you go to the airport, you get this, like, body scan stuff. Back then, it was just. You had just surpassed a metal detector. So, you know, we had kids that were like 14, 15 years old, you know, carrying a half a brick at

A (19:40)

a time on their bodies.

B (19:42)

On their bodies, you know, in their underwear. And just go right through. Don't hit no metal, you know, through that alarm and just go through, you know.

A (19:52)

And these were kids that you guys were paying to do this?

B (19:55)

No, that was just. It was part of the cost that was baked in, you know, from the purchase, you know, so.

A (20:01)

But were you purchasing directly to the people in Puerto Rico?

B (20:05)

Yeah, they were. Yeah. They would bring the kids over, and

A (20:07)

they would send the kids over. Got it. Okay. And do you know where the Puerto Ricans were getting the cocaine from?

B (20:12)

Usually it was coming from, like, Dr. Probably or Colombia. You know, I don't know. I don't know.

A (20:19)

What was the quality of the cocaine back then compared to now, you think?

B (20:22)

It was like, I remember, like, 89%, like, people getting locked up and tested

A (20:30)

at 89% and now it's much less. Right. It's not as pure.

B (20:35)

Yeah, I don't know.

A (20:36)

You don't know.

B (20:36)

I don't have a coke and trying to get me indicted.

A (20:44)

I will ask my other sources and I'll come back to that.

B (20:46)

I'm a different man now. You know, I got a law library.

A (20:51)

Okay, so you started. So you then started making serious money and did you think at that time, was it. Did you get to a point where you didn't actually have to be the one on the corner selling drugs, where you'd have people doing that?

B (21:03)

Yeah. And it was not. It didn't become a corner game anymore, you know, it became a delivery service. You know, so from the corner, it became after that to a delivery service.

A (21:13)

How would that work?

B (21:14)

So basically, like, all those. Got all those people that were coming into those bars. I was. Me and my boy, like, made up these cards and we called it at the time Happy Endings, the name of the bar. But then people were calling for Happy Endings, which was bad branding for us. So we. We changed. We changed the name eventually, you know,

A (21:34)

and you'd be like, what? Kind of.

B (21:36)

Yeah, yeah. And we. There was times where we showed up and they were like, so. And they. I'm like, what? And, yo, it was crazy. I can't even tell you, but there's stories I could tell you that I had to like. Yeah.

A (21:51)

Oh, so wait, so they were expecting, like, a woman for.

B (21:56)

Yeah, yeah. And they're like, where's the lady? You know? And I'm like, what lady? I was like, I got the white lady. You know, and they will buy too, because, you know, we were like, showing up sometimes, you know. But

A (22:11)

it could actually be a good marketing.

B (22:13)

Yeah, but no, it was. It was. It was crazy times. You know, we were making so many deliveries because we had seven cell phones because each phone only held 1500 contact numbers at that time. So, you know, you had these flip phones. So we're with all the phones and different cards that we were making, you know, people were calling non stop. They were non stop. Like, I'm picking up two phones at a time while these other two phones are ringing. Where you at? 2035th. 20 minutes, blah, blah, blah. Dispatching with a radio phone with the next house. Hey, yo, I need to drive a 2035th. How many? 20 minutes. All right, copy. Be right there. Boom. And then just. And I'll have sometimes, like an easy board and just like write down the whole. Do our dispatching. Just no spreadsheet. It was just paper, pen, and the phones, you know, and it never stopped.

A (23:12)

That is crazy. How many, how many customers you think you had at the time?

B (23:18)

At least 10,000, you know. At least 10,000.

A (23:21)

So do you, would you say that you were the first sort of just I mean, city scale distributor of that?

B (23:28)

No, no, I was not the first to start a delivery service. I feel like a lot of people been doing delivery services for years, you know, especially in deeper times. But I think I was the first to like scale it, you know, to a different level.

A (23:45)

Were you just selling inside Manhattan or you were going out to Brooklyn, Tri State area, everywhere?

B (23:49)

Yeah, we were going everywhere.

A (23:51)

And what was the. Was it mainly weed?

B (23:53)

Weed and coke both, you know, so a lot, a lot of the people that were using coke, you know, they were calling us at like 4 or 5 in the morning for weed because they had to come down from their coke high.

A (24:03)

And then people would pay you in cash.

B (24:06)

Yeah.

A (24:06)

What do you do with the cash?

B (24:09)

Spend it. What do you do? I don't know.

A (24:11)

You can put it in the bank.

B (24:12)

I mean, I couldn't put it in the bank, you know, I mean, I had a couple bank accounts, but yeah, it was just cash and shoe boxes, you know, sneaker boxes. Like $30,000 in each sneaker box.

A (24:24)

At your house. Were you living by yourself at this point?

B (24:28)

No, I was living with my friend, you know, who was my partner, you know, and yeah, we was doing a lot of crazy stuff.

A (24:37)

Did you guys have to hire security to make sure that you were protecting that cash?

B (24:43)

No, I feel like we were security, you know. I don't know. It's just like you, when you grow up in that, that circumstance, like the corner, like I inherited the corner from like somebody that sold drugs in the corner for 20, 30 years, you know, and so like the everybody, like I couldn't sell, you know, on my mom's corner because that corner was owned by another drug dealer, you know, and I sold there and I had to fight those people, you know, like it was, you know, and we're just a block away, you know, that's how serious it was, you know, back then.

A (25:21)

Yeah. So the territory mattered. It was very important. Sort of maintaining your. Yeah, your area.

B (25:29)

Yeah. And. And I was, I would probably be, say I was probably the first 24 hours delivery service because nobody was doing 24 hours. I was non stop. I would stay up for like three, five days at a time taking caffeine pills just to stay up because the phones, in my dreams, I heard the ringtones of the phone, you Know like that's how much it was embedded.

A (25:54)

Did you do cocaine?

B (25:55)

No, never. I tried it, yeah. When I was very young. My cousin pulled the trick on me at 11. He made me sniff. He put it, like in this Vicks thing, you know, this inhaler thing. But he put some inside it, cracked it open, and he was like, take a hit. He's like 13, you know. And. And then I felt like my whole neck, like, my throat like turned numb and I just. I was scared, you know, I couldn't. I felt like I couldn't swallow, you know.

A (26:27)

So you never did it again?

B (26:28)

Yeah, well, I experimented. Like, probably like smoking it in a. In a blunt, you know, joking around with friends. But it wasn't for you. It wasn't for me because that could

A (26:38)

have worked better maybe than the caffeine pills to keep you awake.

B (26:41)

Yeah, no, I don't need that. You know, I just saw so many people, like, I just saw. And crack, you know, I saw crack at when I was on the. On the block to seeing how devastated, you know, I was. And I, I didn't at the time. It was just money, money, money. But I, you know, when I got locked up, I just felt like so much regret.

A (27:01)

So you're selling crack as well?

B (27:02)

Not just at one time. Yeah, but the delivery surface was. Delivery service was just like weed and cocaine. But when I was like on the corner block, I was crack coat, weed.

A (27:15)

Why did you not deliver crack? Just because that's not what people asked for. Well, it was more of a corner thing.

B (27:21)

Yeah, well, it was a black thing. You in the hood, right? The people that are smoking crack is. We were selling $10 crack, you know, bags, you know, so the person that was delivering, we had $100 minimum, you know, at one point it became a $200 minimum, you know.

A (27:37)

Did you see. Did you see a change in the neighborhood with a crack epidemic where you were, you were, you. Did it happen while you were selling drugs? Or was it. Was crack already a problem when you.

B (27:47)

Crack was already a problem? Crack was like, I've been in crack houses where, like, I remember, like. Like this is New York City, Lower east side dirty, you know, like Chinatown dirty. Like, you know, these buildings decapitated with burned out windows, you know, boarded up. Like going into these crack houses and like roaches, like, I remember seeing roaches crawl over people's faces while they take a hit. And the roach on the crack pipe, you know, And I was in those rooms, like, selling in those crackhouse. Like I was sleeping in there. Because those people would just constantly call me, you know, So I was like, I, you know, I'll be in there,

A (28:30)

you know, and, and you say that that's when you went to prison later on, that that's something that you regretted.

B (28:37)

Selling crack, I think even selling coke. You know, for me, I don't know what I was putting in people's bodies. Right. I was getting it from somebody else, you know, I don't know what, what could have happened. And I seen people being so, so much destroyed with straight cocaine from the

A (28:55)

street, you know, was, was heroin at all? Was. Did you sell heroin at all?

B (29:00)

I did, I've sold heroin. Not a, not a big amount, you know, but my neighborhood was heroin city, you know, like people don't talk about the Lower east side as like drug neighborhood, you know, but in the 80s, you would see like lines, lines of people buying heroin. And there was, there was dope stamps actually. Like Clayton, who we spoke about, he collected every dope stamp from. He made a. It's like a 100 page book and he has all those dope stamps of each corner.

A (29:33)

So the dope stamps is when people were selling dope, they would put their own stamps and they're sort of like a marketing, which they do with prescript, with, with fentanyl these days as well.

B (29:43)

And I have friends that would get paid to go to the dope bagging spots. So they would go in there, they would have to like strip down, you know, with their boxes on. I'm talking about 12, 13, 14 year old kids, you know. You know, you're just bagging up heroin, you know, with something across your face, you know, and. Yeah.

A (30:05)

And stripped down so that they didn't steal the drugs. Yeah. Wow. So you started, so you started this massive 24 hour just. Did you have a name for your company, the distribution company?

B (30:17)

It was happening party in the beginning. Yeah. Happy Endings. And then it was party services. And then we divided trees for pleasures because we like, we became, we branched out to like having a couple people just do the weed delivery and then, you know, more people do the coke delivery at the time.

A (30:37)

And it was you and one partner mainly. Yeah, the bosses.

B (30:41)

Yeah. And we basically started on the corner together, you know. Yeah.

A (30:45)

And at this point that's. This is when you were making about

B (30:48)

$2 million, 5 million in revenue a year and like 2 billion profit.

A (30:54)

And most of this was being put

B (30:56)

into shoeboxes, shoe boxes, and then buying jewelry, clothes, sneakers. I got, I had a lot of sneakers.

A (31:07)

What were conversations with your parents at

B (31:08)

this point, because I was not living with them, you know, at that point, you know, I was. I probably stopped living with my parents, like, around 14, and. And then went back to living with them, like, at 16. But then after 18, I was living 17, 18. I was living on my own.

A (31:28)

Right. You know, Were you still living in the Lower east side?

B (31:31)

Still living in the Lower east side, in the projects, you know, what was

A (31:35)

the peak when you were making the most money? How old were you?

B (31:40)

23. That's when I got locked up.

A (31:43)

What happened?

B (31:45)

The undercover DEA agents raided us. Basically, somebody told them that I was. I had this delivery service a while back, and they gave up some sort of information, and they started buying drugs off of us. So they made. They bought, like, 37 times, you know, from us.

A (32:06)

And they were building a case.

B (32:08)

They were building a case, and that was. And the day that they started capturing all of us, I was the last person to get caught. And they. They got me in the stash house with five pounds of weed and a kilo and a half of coke.

A (32:22)

So tell me about that day. How did that day start?

B (32:25)

So I'm in the South Bronx. This is a stash house up there, you know, and then we. I remember, like, going up there, and I'm dealing with the phones, because at the time, the dispatcher that we had, I basically let go because he was still our customers, you know, so we had somebody, like, answering the phones for us and doing all the dispatching, and he started a phone line on the side. And then that phone line on the side was. Was that. Which was the phone that got tapped by the feds. And so they started building a case, and I'm sending. I didn't at the time I caught him doing that. We separated ties, and now I'm just dealing with the phones by myself, you know, and then my partner at the time was locked up, and so I'm doing everything. I got, like, 42 people, like, waiting to see, you know, to be delivered. And the queue was getting longer and longer because all my drivers were getting caught at one at a time, you know, so at the time, we had next cells, and when you heard the. The feedback go, beep, beep, you know, it was either like, you lose connection or it's not going through, it's not working. And so every time I sent somebody to a. They stopped entering, like, 10 minutes before, and it was just weird. So I kept. They kept calling, and I was sending all my drivers. It was like 10 drivers to different locations, and they all were getting Caught one at a time. And there was the first driver that I caught. Basically told them where the stash house was, where I was.

A (34:06)

How do you know?

B (34:08)

There was only three people that knew. And at the time, I remember, like, asking my lawyer, you know, when I was locked up, you know, who told? And I said that name. And he said, yeah, you know, so.

A (34:22)

Okay, so he told who? So the first guy that. The first driver that got caught, immediately he said where the stash house was.

B (34:28)

I took him, like, 12 hours of interrogation, you know.

A (34:31)

And then what happened?

B (34:33)

Then they. I. I'm like, in the house. In the stash house. I'm dealing with all the phones. And so I ran up to the stash house because I needed to do the deliveries myself. I got all these people waiting for me. And so I went over there, I grabbed some stuff, and then I go downstairs into the car. And I remember, like, this white dude. I'm in the South Bronx. There's no white people there except for cops, you know. So I see this white dude, and he says, this is Joseph. Detective Joseph King from dea. Your whole operation is done cost marte. And says my name. And I'm like, what? Get the fuck out of here. I don't know what you're talking about. So I turned around on him. I see more officers just come out of nowhere quick and just grab me up and. And arrest me. And I remember having my. Like, I had a M3 BMW convertible drop top right there. And then I had the Escalade right behind it. And then they went into the car and they started searching the car, and then, you know, and they couldn't find anything on me. And I remember they were like, oh, we're gonna get it. We're getting a warrant for the house. You know, we're gonna search the house. So they got a warrant, and they brought me inside and to the. The room, and they said, where's the drugs at? And I was like, I don't sell drugs. What the is he talking about? You know? And all the drugs were in one box. And they were like, we know everything. And they opened up the box where I'm talking about. It was in a Jordan box, the kilo and a half. And then I had, like, five pounds of weed, like, under the bed somewhere, and. And that was it. Bingo. You know, and they took me in, and they brought me all the way downtown to PSA 4, which is like a Lower east side precinct for the projects. And they fingerprint me. I remember, like, them clapping, you know, when I went Inside because they were like, we got him, he's done. You know, like it was like, like I was the biggest kingpin they seen or some shit, you know. You tell yourself no one wants your college era band tees, but on Depop, people are searching for exactly what you've got. You once paid a small fortune for them at merch stands. Now a teenager who calls them vintage will offer that same small fortune back. Sell them easily on Depop, just snap a few photos and we'll take care of the rest. Who knew your questionable music taste would be a money making machine? Your style can make you cash. Start selling on Depop where taste recognizes taste.

A (37:09)

How did you feel at the time?

B (37:12)

I felt like it was over, you know, I felt like it was over cause it was my third felony, you know, third big felony. I already had like A, drug possession, B felony. Then I caught another C, drug possession and intent to sell, C felony. Did prison time, came home, finish parole, you know, and then get locked up, like literally after I got off parole like a week later and, and I knew I was going to be gone. This is like they, they had these mandatory drug laws in New York that were the Rockefeller laws. So if you were like caught for the third time and you got caught for even the first time, you get, if you get caught with over 2 ounces, you get life sentence behind your sentence, you know. So I was facing fits in a life at the time.

A (38:00)

Had this not gone through your mind before? Did you not know that this was a possibility?

B (38:04)

Yeah, at the time I was just like, I felt like I was doing this all right, and dealing with, you know, rich white people that never had to get stopped by cops, you know, that lived in these neighborhoods that were incognito, you know, these Wall street guys, you know, these, these big people that had a lot of money that you go to their houses, you pull out the drugs and they're just buying it for their friends, you know, it's like a normality and they're not getting caught, you know.

A (38:35)

So you thought that because your clientele had changed, you weren't selling on the corner anymore. Now you're selling to rich people that there was a chance you wouldn't actually be caught?

B (38:42)

Yeah, no, I didn't get caught that way, you know,

A (38:47)

and that it was because of that operation that you got caught?

B (38:49)

Well, I got caught because of the dispatcher starting a new line.

A (38:53)

Right.

B (38:53)

You know, and he gave his car to the wrong person.

A (38:56)

Wait, how did, wait, how did that happen?

B (38:58)

So my dispatcher, who was like dealing with all the phones. He started a new phone number and as the drive, one of the drivers was his cousin. So he was sending his cousin to these delivery sites and saying like, hey, there's a new card.

A (39:13)

Huh. So he was basically starting a parallel.

B (39:15)

Yeah. And then I found out. So I took that phone away from him and that phone was being tapped because he gave the card or they got into some trouble, you know, and then that's how the investigation started.

A (39:29)

Where's this, that guy now?

B (39:30)

I don't know.

A (39:33)

And so, so then, so then you're realizing that this is not good for you and there's a chance you might spend the rest of your life in prison.

B (39:41)

Yep.

A (39:42)

And, and then what happened?

B (39:44)

Yeah, I remember going to court and they saying that they wanted to hit me with the Kingpin charges, you know, that was the first thing. And then I remember like being in the cell when they. And, and they gave me my wallet back. And inside my wallet they took like all my cards and all that stuff away. But in my wallet I had a picture of my son. And I remember I had like 10 pieces of acid. And so I used to take LSD a lot at that time. And so I take all 10 pieces of acid. And so I'm like started to trip in the prison. And they take me to the interrogation room and it's like the, the DA is there, you know, they got like five officers just like in my face, you know, like invest. And I'm just laughing like everything was just so funny, you know, ridiculous like. And they basically threw me back in the cell, you know, cuz I was like, I'm not telling on nobody, you know, I don't give a. And I was like, give me life, whatever.

A (40:47)

So. But why did you take 10 pieces of asset?

B (40:50)

It was just a trip, you know, I was, I was sitting in a prison cell where I didn't know what. When I was going to come out. So it was like, hey, let me get high and have a good time, you know, while I wait here for 24 hours, you know, to see a judge.

A (41:04)

So then, so then they put you back in the cell after they realized they weren't going to have a serious conversation with you.

B (41:12)

And they told the judge that, you

A (41:13)

know, that he's not taking this case seriously. I guess.

B (41:16)

No, because I told them all in the interrogation room. I was like, they were idiots that they gave me acid. I'm on acid now. So. So the, the judge was like, oh, you think it's funny, right? You're on Acid right now. Do you see my hands, you know, like joking on the stand? And I remember them saying, like, they would. They threw like serious numbers. And I was like, whatever, you know, And I don't know, at the time, I was just like, like, so, like entregado. Like just like my mindset was just like, whatever, I'm done. Yeah. This is my life, you know, defeated, kind of.

A (41:55)

Right.

B (41:55)

Yeah.

A (41:56)

And were your parents there?

B (41:58)

No.

A (41:58)

For the court? For any of it?

B (42:00)

Yeah. Yeah, my dad came for the time I was being sentenced. You know, my brother. My brother and my dad came.

A (42:08)

What was. What did he say to you? What. How did you think, how did you feel about the fact that he was seeing this happen?

B (42:15)

So I actually. So I got seven years in prison, you know, and I smiled at him from the court stand.

A (42:23)

Because you thought you were going to get much more. Why did you end up only getting seven years? It's not a lot considering the preparation you were running. And if you did, did they charge you with a kingp charges? No, they didn't.

B (42:33)

So Governor Spitzer at the time, I don't know if you know the New York politics. He cheated on his wife with a prostitute.

A (42:40)

I remember that.

B (42:41)

Yeah. So he was impeached. And then Governor Patterson came in and then he. His first initiative was to reform the drug, drug Rockefeller laws. So he changed that and the mandatory guidelines were changed so I didn't have to do life, you know. And so they gave. They. So basically I was gonna cop out to 12 years and five parole. And that's what my lawyer thought. Like, I'm speaking to my lawyer, he was like, yo, this is the minimum, okay? The best deal. 12 years. 5. You know, and so I get to court and they say, hey, we're gonna give you seven years. You know, like, basically, times are changing. And I was like, oh, my God. I, like, turned around, smiled at my dad, and he looked at me like, are you crazy? You know? You happy you got that? You know, and. But didn't understand at the time that I was facing much more and more time.

A (43:35)

Do you think he was disappointed at you? What do you think? How do you think he felt at that moment?

B (43:42)

Yeah, I don't. I don't know. You know, I never really thought about how he felt at that. That moment, you know, I think. I don't know.

A (43:53)

What about your mom? Did you ever talk to her about it?

B (43:57)

Yeah, I mean, when we go to. When they were coming to visit me in prison, you know, they were disappointed, you know, but she always had Hope, you know, I felt like she's, she was my number one supporter in terms of like knowing that I could get back on track, you know, Was there

A (44:17)

a part of you that, I mean, I'm sure there was, right. That felt bad about that. Just about what, what you're going, you're making your parents go through after all their hard work, making sure they will come to the United States to provide a better life for you guys and all of that, like, what was going through your head?

B (44:32)

Yeah, I, you know, in the beginning I didn't care, you know, but when I like found out I had, I was able to get a second chance at life, you know, like that I knew that I was going to come home. Right. That's when I restart changing my mindset, you know, in terms of like thinking about other people, you know, And I remember like my mom like, you know, taking those nine hour bus rides to prison and bringing my son with me, you know, and like seeing my son like crying in the visiting rooms and those, that's the worst and most difficult thing, you know, to like tell your kid, like, I can't go with you, you know, and then desperately saying, why not? You know.

A (45:21)

So how old was your kid?

B (45:24)

Two to six, you know.

A (45:26)

So you were in prison four years in the end, right? You were sentenced seven. You were there for four. And you're. So your son was two when you first went to prison. How did. And you were, that was your only son at the time?

B (45:37)

Yeah.

A (45:38)

And this was somebody you'd married or.

B (45:41)

I got married in Rikers Island.

A (45:42)

You did with the, with the mother of your child?

B (45:44)

Yeah. Yeah. So we were engaged before I was locked up. And then we decided to get married while I was in jail.

A (45:52)

Huh. And so you were sent to Rikers?

B (45:54)

Yeah.

A (45:55)

Was that where you were sent to with that, with the seven year prison sentence?

B (45:58)

No. So Rikers is a jail. So that's like you're holding cell, you know. So I was sitting there until I was sentenced. I was there for a year before I went, wow, upstate.

A (46:08)

And then what was Rikers like you

B (46:12)

know, at the time? It was, it's, it's crazy, you know, like gangs are running it, you know, you're not a gang member or, you know, like, I'm lucky that I'm Dominican because at least like the Dominican gang like and took me. But I always told the gang members, they were like, yo, I've been approached multiple times to join a gang and I'm like, how much you guys paying? And they'll laugh at me and I'm like, I'm not joining a gang if y' all not paying, you know, I'm not doing free work, you know, because I just seen so many young kids fall into that trap where they send them on dummy missions, you know, dummy, we call it dummy missions where like, you know, that you see this kid that's 14, 15 years old that's coming into this brand new jail and you see an 18 year old, 20 year old kid, you know, send them, yeah, you got to cut this guy, you know, to, to be with us, you know. And that kid is like, well, the pressure of that, right? That, that feeling, right. And they got to do it, you know, because if they don't do it, it's going to be done by, to them, you know, so.

A (47:18)

And that didn't happen to you, like they didn't put that pressure on you?

B (47:21)

Well, I got into fights, you know, when I was a kid and early on, you know, because I was not in gangs and stuff like that.

A (47:29)

Because you were not in gangs?

B (47:30)

Yeah. I used to tell, there was this thing like a statement we used to say like, like. And it was like a crew at what that one time it became like NFL, you know, neutral for life, you know,

A (47:42)

and that's what you were.

B (47:43)

And I used to state that, you know, when people used to approach me like, you know, I'm NFL, you know.

A (47:51)

And was it mainly because. Because you didn't see a business in that. Because it wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't. Your main goal was to make money and there was no money to be made from these gangs, so why join them? Right?

B (48:02)

Yeah. And I mean the gangs have their own, you know, drug whatever. But I was never involved with none of that. You know, I never saw any ROI in that.

A (48:12)

You mentioned that you were. When I asked you about protection when you were with all the making all that money in cash and saving it in shoeboxes and you said that you guys were your own protection. Did you always carry a gun at home?

B (48:25)

You know, not at my mom's house, you know. Well, I did as a kid when I was very young. But yeah, I always had something stashed at that time, you know.

A (48:35)

But when you were selling drugs on the corner, I'm assuming you also had

B (48:37)

on the mailbox, you know, like when we were on the block, it was like, like nearby. But it wouldn't be on us because. And you don't want to get locked up in New York. There was just so much strict laws on, on Guns, you know, being held. And so, like, we would get stopped consistently. Right. Like, so I was out the block or, you know, 20ft, 50ft away from us.

A (49:02)

And that was to be used in case somebody came to try to rob you or steal your cash or your money or your drugs. And did you ever have to use it?

B (49:11)

Well, yeah, not really, but yeah.

A (49:16)

Am I making you talk too much?

B (49:17)

I'm not gonna say nothing.

A (49:19)

Can you still get in trouble for things that you would tell me here, you think?

B (49:23)

I don't know. I don't know. You know, I mean, it's. I guess there's a stipulation. Right. On New York law or. I don't know about federal law, you know. Right. Like, but it's. There's 20, you know, I guess 10 years. 20 years this happened. All. I got locked up 2009.

A (49:41)

Yeah, it's better if we don't take that chance. But. But this was not part of your case. Like, gun violence wasn't at all part of your case.

B (49:47)

They were trying to find guns. You know, I remember they were trying to buy guns through the process while they were. They didn't. So. So in New York State, the kingpin law, you had to get caught and. And have a certain amount and sell a certain amount. So when I went to the law library in Rikers Island, I was reading the water Kingpin is. So you have to, like, sell over 2 ounces cocaine or heroin to officer directly. The 37 sales that we did were so minor, when it came back, it didn't add to that amount, you know, so I brought that up to the lawyer, and then they dropped it down to, like, a. A2 felony.

A (50:33)

Yeah, because the Kingpin charges are more directed towards, like, big drug traffickers. Right. Ringing large amounts of cocaine.

B (50:41)

But if they would have, like, probably done. Done a hundred buys, then they would have got there.

A (50:48)

So Rikers was awful. Was it immediately violent? As soon as you got in, you realized that there was. Did you have to be violent?

B (50:54)

Yeah, I mean, yeah, you know, there's. The first time I went in, it was different. And from going in, like in 2005, 2006, you know, then 2009. At the time, I remember, like, going in and it was just like very gladiator school, you know, everybody got a shank. Everybody, you know, get ready if anything goes down. You know, you don't know when the searches are going to go down. You got ESU emergency service unit coming in, raiding your cell, throwing everything around.

A (51:31)

You know, so you were given a shank when you got in.

B (51:34)

No, you make one, you know.

A (51:36)

How did you make one?

B (51:40)

Fan blade, you know, or fan stick, you know, you got like. There's a lot of ways, you know, or you crack a piece of metal, you know, I had the. What's the scalpel? So the scalpels were good because the scalpels don't ring in the metal detectors, you know, but it like this small, but it's sharp as hell. And you wrap them up a piece of little cardboard, nice hard paper, and you keep it inside you, you know, inside.

A (52:11)

It's the pocket. Pocket knife they call it, right?

B (52:13)

Oh, yeah. Or you cheek it. Yeah.

A (52:15)

Or you cheek it.

B (52:16)

Yeah.

A (52:17)

This we're talking about inside your butt, right? That's not where you hide it.

B (52:20)

Yeah, yeah.

A (52:20)

We had a guest here, Fabian Alomar, who told us all about it. It was actually part of the trailer for the podcast for a long time. This description of the pocket knife. Not pocket knife, sorry. It's called the.

B (52:32)

Well, a prison pocket.

A (52:34)

Prison. Prison pocket, of course. Makes much more sense. Prison bucket. Yeah. So you had it too? Yeah, yeah.

B (52:42)

I mean, a lot of raids were coming in. You had to throw everything in your prison pocket, you know, because you. They'll strip you naked, which is illegal now. They. They were, they used to put us all in like, what, in dorm areas. In the big prison dorm areas. Strip us naked facing each other, you know, and it was just like demeaning. And we would have to have our hands on top of our heads, you know, and then squat and cough in front of an office, turn around, you know, and there was always like, I remember like a lot of Muslim guys, you know, they. It was against their religion to do stuff like that. So they would fight, you know, and they would. Yeah, they were like, yeah, I'm not stripping, you know, And I remember like things changing over time where like they had to take people aside and, you know, have them search in separate rooms and stuff like that because of it.

A (53:35)

Wow. And then, and then you were sent upstates to another prison after Rikers.

B (53:39)

That was gladiator school, you know, because it was a prison that was mostly youth, you know, so in, in New York state, it was like the second to last state to have like youth with adults. So it was like 16, 17 year old, 18 year old kids at the time. I was 24 and they used to say, they used to call me OG, you know, because I was 24, you know, but. And these kids were doing crazy stuff, you know, and like I said, those dummy missions, you know, I've seen a lot of them get into a lot of trouble because of that, you know,

A (54:15)

Were you respected in prison for being. Because you were older or was there?

B (54:19)

Oh, well, I remember I got. I got into a fight, like, the first day I got into prison because of the tv, you know, so, yeah, everybody has their own chair, you know, so you have your own chair tied to your own cell. So you take that chair and you watch the. You go watch TV or you eat in that chair, whatever. So I bring my chair out, you know, to the day room setting, you know, with a setting where, like, everybody's watching tv. I leave it there, I go to the bathroom, I come back, I see this guy has his feet up on my chair. And, you know, that means one thing, that somebody's testing you or not, you know, And I was like, yo, yo, get off my chair. He's like, what are you gonna do? So I grabbed the chair and I threw it at him. And then we go to the bathroom, we fight it out. And I remember, like, that first day, I cut it. I didn't cut him with a knife or anything, but he had, like, a cut in his eye. And every in the guard, one of the guards, like, you know, Brule, the whistle or whatever, you know, set the alarm. And so a whole bunch of guards came, and I, like, ran into a stall cleaning my body, because you can't have any marks, you know, because the first thing that they do is looking at, you know, if you got any marks on your hands, you know, so I'm running it in cold water. And then I go back to the unit because everybody, they're like all inmates back to themselves, you know. So I go back, you know, to my spot and take off your shirt, Check you around. But a kid that had that mark, they took him to the box, you

A (56:01)

know, to the solitary. To solitary. And he didn't write you out?

B (56:04)

He didn't write me out.

A (56:05)

Because that is the number one. One of. The. Number one of the big rules in prison, right, is you don't write out out. Because then he could have gotten into serious trouble, right? He'd be seen as a rat.

B (56:14)

Yeah.

A (56:16)

And. And so they never found out it was you. Did you ever go, oh, yeah, you did.

B (56:21)

I gained respect.

A (56:22)

You did. You gained respect because of that.

B (56:24)

Yeah.

A (56:25)

And that was one of the first moments where they were sort of.

B (56:28)

That was the first day.

A (56:29)

That was the first day.

B (56:30)

First day. Wow. You know, this was J2 in Green Correction Facility.

A (56:36)

What's J2?

B (56:38)

The unit they. They used to call Call it a jungle dorm, you know, so it was like the jungle, you know, whoever. A lot of people that ended up in J2 were people that were being released from the box from, like, previous fights. So it was crazy in there.

A (56:57)

So it was the most violent unit.

B (56:58)

Yeah. At that time, yeah.

A (57:00)

Why were you.

B (57:03)

I don't know. I was just sent there, you know.

A (57:06)

Were you scared?

B (57:08)

Nah, you know, just awareness, you know, more like alert, you know, and mind your own business, you know, like, you don't. You don't want to. Like, when you walk down that tier, you know, you don't want to look at people's cells. You're looking straight, you know.

A (57:26)

Were there gangs in that prison as well?

B (57:28)

Oh, yeah, A lot of.

A (57:30)

Were you also. Did you get into with the. Was there a Dominican?

B (57:33)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (57:34)

What are they called?

B (57:35)

Trintarios. You know, everybody knows that there's a lot of history and stuff like that in New York of them being, like, the largest Spanish gang. You know, like, you're California. You have, like, whatever. I don't know the Ms. And all the stuff here, but right over there is mostly, like, Puerto Rican Dominican guys on the Spanish side, you know, there is Ms. And all that stuff, but a very small scale.

A (57:59)

And did you have to. Were there drugs being sold inside?

B (58:02)

Yeah, I brought drugs in.

A (58:04)

You did? How?

B (58:05)

Through my prison pocket.

A (58:08)

That little thing is really useful.

B (58:12)

And Rikers island, you know. Yeah, just like getting it in visiting rooms, you know, getting friends to come bring you stuff.

A (58:20)

Also using their own private wallet or how do they smuggle it in?

B (58:24)

Yeah, sort of.

A (58:28)

Was it easy at the time to smuggle drugs in to prison?

B (58:32)

Not never easy, but doable, you know?

A (58:37)

Yeah. I'm all I always ask. I'm always fascinated by contraband in prison because I don't think most people realize that actually, prisons are the biggest black markets in the world. Like, there's more drugs sold in prison than.

B (58:47)

I was smoking weeds at one point in Rikers island. And, you know, then outside, you know, like, I had a whole unit just, like, we were smoking, like, 30 people at a time doing ciphers.

A (59:00)

And so it was family members. And then were the correctional officers as well, bringing stuff in to sell? Yeah, that happens a lot.

B (59:07)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, they tried to set me up at one point when I. In Rikers Island.

A (59:13)

How.

B (59:13)

So they. So I got caught, like, bringing in weed. Not. Not bringing in weed, but I got caught smoking. And one of the officers, like, said, was the weed at. I already flushed it, you know, so he couldn't Find it. And then he was the one bringing in the weed, but he took it out of my pillow and he said he had an ounce of weed. So he brought me to the box for a second. They were interrogating me, all this stuff. I was like, that's not mine, you know, that ain't mine, you know. And then they put. They basically, like, he started bringing it away from me. He wanted me to. He wanted to see if he could trust, you know, that I was not going to say anything, you know.

A (60:00)

Huh. Wow. Okay, so he basically planted drugs on you and that essentially you ended up in solitary for that, but he, he was testing you to see if you wouldn't rat him out because you knew it had been him. And so once he could trust you, then he became the guy that brought

B (60:17)

in weed for you, because I know he was bringing the wheat for somebody else, you know.

A (60:22)

Do you think the other correction, do you think it's like, because it happens so often, is it sort of a no. Does everybody know that, knows that this is happening and just nobody cares and these correctional officers just don't get in trouble or what's the deal?

B (60:34)

I mean, it was hidden, you know, like when, you know, they call it the white shirts, like the lieutenants, the captains, you know, in the correctional system, you know, people like, get alert, you know, they don't want, you know. But so a lot of these guards grow up in the same neighborhoods as us, right? They're living in the same neighborhoods, you know, so it's. It's hard to like, say, like, yo, don't do this for me. Or you start off with, like, yo, bring me a, a pack of ketchup. And the pack of ketchup becomes a bacon, egg and cheese one day. And then the bacon, egg and cheese becomes, you know, give point, you know, and then he comes, yeah, yo, my friend's gonna meet you. I'm sending you a Western Union payment numbers, you know, and that was it.

A (61:17)

You know, they also, a lot of them don't get paid very well, Right? And so this is sort of a way to supplement their income in New York.

B (61:25)

They get paid in the city. They got paid pretty well, you know, I think. And people don't realize the. How many people are being released from prison in New York State and how many people are being rotated in the system. There's188,000 people being released from New York State every year compared, you know, how much the country.

A (61:47)

I know this.

B (61:47)

There's 650, 000 people are released from the whole country every year. Every year. So New York State188,0006 50. Right. That's. That's a lot of people. A lot of people that are being rotated in and a lot of relationships being built while they incarcerated, you know, know.

A (62:05)

Right.

B (62:06)

And a lot of money.

A (62:08)

Yeah. So did you. So you were, you had weed, did you start a business in prison with the drugs? Were you making money from it as well?

B (62:15)

Yeah, cuz inside you sell like a spider leg for 10 bucks, you know, or 5 bucks a commissary, you know, depending on the size of the joint. But like the joint is so like, like this amount, like that amount of weed is $5.

A (62:30)

That's five versus what, like a dollar outside?

B (62:33)

This is nothing. That's. You can't even sell that outside. That's like a penny, you know. You know, that's like stuff you find on the floor, you know.

A (62:43)

And so you were making money there as well?

B (62:45)

Yeah.

A (62:46)

And then what happened? Yeah. Tell me about your transformation in prison. What happened to you?

B (62:52)

So I went into prison weighing a lot of being. Being pretty, pretty heavy, you know. So in Rikers Island, I was just like eating junk and not knowing where my health was. And so when I went upstate, the doctors take blood. First examination, you see, in a long time, because now you're property of the state, you know. And so they find, they tell me about my cholesterol issues and they told me I could probably die within five years. And I was like, what? I'm 24, you know, like, how am I gonna die? You know? And they were like, oh, if you keep eating or not exercising and like, your levels are really bad. And I was like, all right, that's what, like, so what do I gotta do? You know? And so recommended exercising. They put me on the special diet, basically. Like, they don't feed you, you know. And I started working out obsessively, you know. So I lost over 70 pounds in six months. Just running the prison yard, going back to my cell, working out, you know, and just consistently doing it.

A (63:59)

And wait, you got other people doing it with you too, right?

B (64:02)

Yeah. And so I got. I had one other. One of the guys that was like, you know, pretty big inside, asked me to like train them eventually. And I helped him lose 80 pounds. And then I helped a lot of other people, you know, work out. And so we would form like a big circle in the prison yard. Somebody would get in the middle. We're doing like burpees, jumping jacks, you know, push ups, all types of stuff together, you know, and it build a real camaraderie, you know. And I didn't think I was going to start a business behind it. But towards the end of my incarceration I ended up in solitary and, and this is where I had my spiritual awakening where I feel like I changed my life around.

A (64:43)

First off, let me ask you, how did you end up in solitary then?

B (64:47)

So towards the end of my incarceration I, I qualified for this special program and I did the special program before, it's called Shock. So it's like ex Marines turn correctional officers. So they beat the crap out of you for six months and they let you go home three years before your sentence. And so wait, what? Yes, so I had seven years, right? In seven years you have to do as a non violent crime, you have to do like six years.

A (65:18)

Minimum.

B (65:19)

Yeah, minimum. And then I got to come home early. So. But three years before that, six years, I qualified for this program called Shock. So Shock, they bring you in there, you do six months of this program and then you skip tip from doing all that time. And that's how I got out in four years. But while I was in the program.

A (65:39)

But what is the program exactly?

B (65:41)

Ex Marines turn correctional officers. So they is a boot camp. You know, you wake up at 5:30 in the morning. Yeah. In eight minutes you have to brush your teeth, take a, take a piss, have your hospital corners on your bed and fully be in the position of attention. You know, on a countdown to, to work out for an hour and a half and then eat and then do slave labor in the middle of a field or cemetery in New York State. Wow.

A (66:07)

And so you did this for three years?

B (66:09)

I did that for six months. Well, I did it for before my previous prison sentence to save myself.

A (66:15)

And what are they trying to accomplish just like is it's a way of reform. They think it's like building discipline and hard work.

B (66:21)

Both.

A (66:21)

Is that the idea?

B (66:22)

Both. You know, all the ideas above. You know you start off with like 60 people in a group and you end up, end up being like 20 people when you graduate it. But it's, it's a hands on program. You know, at the time they, they were, I seen people's ribs being broken, nose being broken, like they beat you down. You know, I remember like walking a mile on our knees, you know, in little pebble rocks and then our knees are bleeding and I'm just like popping out little rocks out of my knees and then going into the, the mess hallway. You're supposed to eat. And then you have to sit on metal stools, on your knees and eat for like 10 seconds, you know, and if you can't eat in 10 seconds, you're not gonna. You're not gonna eat, you know, and so you're like swallowing some, and if you're still chewing, they're like making you throw it up, you know, and torture.

A (67:20)

Is it good, do you think? It's.

B (67:22)

There were certain parts of the program that I, I really like respect in terms of like time management, management, responsibility, cleanliness, you know, and stuff like that. But then there was like some stuff that was just over. Receptive.

A (67:37)

Yeah. It sounds so brutal.

B (67:40)

And it. And it's like very racist. I had very racist guy. Like these officers had swastika signs on their. That arms. Like there was this guy named Iceman. He had a black baby with a tree being hung on his arm. Yeah.

A (67:56)

And this is allowed?

B (67:58)

Oh, yeah. Nuevo. And Tick tock. Tick tock Shop esta geno de productos variados in esperados. Fasil de explorar, fasil de encontra. Buenas ofertas. Tik tok a this upstate New York, man. There's 20, 26. Everything's allowed. TRUMP did it. You know,

A (68:24)

we could start a whole conversation.

B (68:25)

Yeah. You know, like that we. Nothing's impossible.

A (68:29)

Right.

B (68:30)

You know?

A (68:31)

Yeah. And wait, this, this was when. What year was this? When you were doing this?

B (68:35)

2012.

A (68:37)

That's crazy. And is this. Does shock program still exist?

B (68:42)

Yeah, it still exists.

A (68:43)

It does.

B (68:44)

They've been through so many lawsuits for so many abusive incidents in there that things have cooled down. But.

A (68:54)

But the idea behind it is, is that they are basically working on the incarcerated population, making them better human beings. Is that the idea is the, the

B (69:03)

certain people, and then certain people are like you niggers, spics, you know, get to work, you know, get in the field, you know, and like do slave labor.

A (69:14)

Because it's also. Yeah, it's. It's free labor for the prison, I guess, or for the state.

B (69:19)

I was gonna pay 7 cents an hour, so it was not.

A (69:21)

To do what?

B (69:22)

To mow lawns, clean dams, build stuff, you know.

A (69:29)

Right. So it's. It's essentially almost free labor. Right.

B (69:32)

I'm joking. Yes. But, you know, seven cents is crazy. You know, I was. Yeah, I was released with $40 and a bus ticket, as many inmates in prison are in New York State, you know, and what do you do? It's $40, right. You nine hour bus ride, you stop halfway, you go to McDonald's you spend 20 bucks, you get on the MTA. You spend five, you buy a snack at night, you spend another five, you wake up with $10 in New York City.

A (69:57)

What do you do with that?

B (69:58)

Yeah. Cup of coffee, you're done.

A (70:00)

Yeah. So I want to talk about your release, but I also want to talk about your time in solitary, because that's where a lot of your change happened. Because I do think that the vast majority of Americans have no idea what is happening inside some of these prisons and how brutal, dehumanizing, and horrific, horrible shit that you wouldn't expect would even be allowed. It's insane. And a lot of it is also the labor part of it because the state is making a lot of money from this essentially free slave labor, like you call it. Yeah, it's crazy.

B (70:29)

It's a money making machine. And I describe it as, like, you know, it's slavery time. And. And, you know, the blacks, like, not picking up cotton anymore. Like, who's gonna go back to the fields? Not this white, rich farm owner. Right. Like, let's lock them up. The same people.

A (70:48)

Yeah.

B (70:48)

And put them back in the same field. If you go to Angola. Right. Same picture. Right. They take a pic. They have a picture that's black and white. Right. That when it was a slave plantation, own land. And it looks exactly the same with the officer with a gun and a horse.

A (71:05)

Yeah.

B (71:05)

You know, it's crazy, but this time it's.

A (71:08)

Yeah. Forced labor from prison.

B (71:09)

Exactly.

A (71:10)

Yeah.

B (71:11)

And the same, you know, ancestors I met, like, inmates that were there, they were like, oh, my grandfather would work this plantation, you know.

A (71:19)

Yeah.

B (71:20)

Yeah.

A (71:21)

So then, so what, why did you end up in. In solitary then?

B (71:25)

So towards the end of my incarceration, I ended up in this program. Yeah. And then I. I ended up, like, get this, getting this, like, random drug test, you know, while I was in this program. So they sent me down to the medical unit. I didn't see a dentist for like, three years. So I'm like, I. I'm thinking I'm about to be released in like a couple months. And I was finally getting my dental call. So I like, run to the bathroom, brush my teeth, you know, I run down to a medical unit and it was like, this is a surprise drug test. And I was like, what do you mean? So I. I'm not using drugs. And I was like, whatever, just get on the wall. So they put me on the wall, they start searching me aggressively. And this officer basically, like, went in between my legs and was like, told me, like, I moved my body a little bit, and. And he was like, don't move in me. Me. And he punched me behind my head and knocked me to the ground. I turned around on him and he said, get down and mate. And I had my hands up. I was like, yo, what? And he presses the pin, which is this button, and his walkie talkie, and that button goes off. The whole alarm for the whole prison goes down. You gotta face down on the ground. And I'm like, I'm begging to him. I was like, why did you have to press. You didn't have to press that. And he just kept screaming, get down, Ma. Get down. And I went down. And about half a dozen officers come through that door. They beat me with batons, shackle me up, and they take me to solitary.

A (72:56)

For what?

B (72:58)

For refusing to a drug test and also attempting to assault an officer. And so I'm. I'm in solitary confinement and, like. Like, pacing back and forth because I had a couple months left. Like, my family thinks I'm coming home early, you know. And I remember, like, just sweating, you know, because it was, like, 110 degrees in that cell. It was a hot box. Like, there's no air ventilation. Like, you have to, like, put your nose in between the crack of the cell, you know, because the cell door slides open like this. So, like, you get a little crack, and that's how you, like, get some air, you know? And then the dribble of the. The water that is coming out of, you know, the. The sink, it's, like, not even coming. It's not. It doesn't even have an arch. It's just, like, going straight down, you know? So, like, you're, like, you know, sipping water like this, you know, and. And, like, wetting your little towel, you know, and just putting it back on your head, you know, and just being naked, you know? And so I remember, like, sitting in there a couple days, and I started writing this letter to my family. And I told them, like, everything that happened. I needed help and all this stuff. And I remember, like, sitting there and I couldn't send out this letter because you. You only could get a stamp after 30 days in solitary. And so I enclosed the letter, and I'm like, I'll send it after, you know. And I remember, like, my sister finding out I was in solitary because my family called the prison and they didn't hear from me, you know. And so she tells me, you know, writes me a letter and says, you know, to read Psalm 91 from the Bible, and my Sister's like, super religious. Like, she's Catholic, you know, you don't even know. She, like, reads the Bible for, you know, for pleasure every day, you know, for pleasure, for sure, you know. And so I take that letter and I throw it in the corner of my sound. I'm like, that. I don't need Jesus. I need. I need a lawyer. I need to get out of this, you know, And. And I'm sitting there sweating, just a couple days go by, and I remember having this, like, Bible that she gave me on early in my incarceration. And in prison, we inmates use our Bible as, like, an address book, you know. So it was. I had, like, all the people that I met from the cartel, you know,

A (75:24)

and, like, we're inside the prison.

B (75:25)

Yeah. That were inside the prison that I was gonna connect with. So originally my idea was like, I'm going to become a better drug dealer. I got caught because of this, you know, Now I got to fix this to, you know, be better, but I'm not. That's what I used.

A (75:40)

But I'm not going to stop selling drugs.

B (75:43)

And. And, you know, and what's funny is that I'm actually today a better drug dealer, you know, still, you know, we'll get there. We'll get there. But, you know, I. I take this Bible and I. I opened it up. Up to Psalm 91, which states, he who dwells in the shelter of the most high will rest in the shadow Almighty. I will say of my God and my. For no, I say to my God, he is my God in my fortress, my God whom I trust. And I remember, like, reading those words and a stamp falling in between the Bible and the. And I needed a stamp, right, to send out this message that I had this letter written for my family for. For so long, and this stamp fell out of my Bible. And I was like, what? Like how. You know, and before you get in there, they, like, search your Bible. They. They did this, like. They split the book cover open and shake it. And. And then. And. And that little stamp changed my life, you know, because it gave me so much chills in my body. It gave me goosebumps. That night. I remember, like, having a outer body experience that I don't tell, know many people about, you know, in that cell, you know, and I. I don't know, I cried in that cell, and I read the Bible from front to back while I was there. And I'm not a religious person. I don't go to church every week, you know, but I started really understanding what it meant. Right. And that's when I really started feeling regret, you know, for all the things that I've done, all the people that I've heard. And I said I wanted to do something right, fight, you know, when I come back, you know, and. And that's. And. And that's where Con Body started, you know, And. And I remember, like, in that prison cell, like, hearing the guards scream out and the workouts and stuff like that, you know, and I, I. Through the window, and I just started writing a workout routine, you know, and then I wrote out, like you said, business plan in the beginning. It was not a business plan. It was like I wrote out what I wanted to do when I came home in terms of my workout routine, in terms of where I was gonna do it and stuff like that.

A (77:48)

It's more like a life plan.

B (77:49)

A life plan, basically, yeah.

A (77:51)

So a few questions. Where do you think the stamp came from? I mean, it was inside the Bible. Do you think that was. Just happened to be there and they didn't catch it or it wasn't something. It wasn't your sister who sent it when she told you?

B (78:01)

No, no, it was just happened to be there.

A (78:03)

It was.

B (78:03)

Who knows there? I didn't touch the Bible for two years, right? Three years, you know, I didn't. I don't know. I was just sitting there, you know, And.

A (78:11)

And this was important to you because you want. Really wanted this letter to get to your family. What was in the letter that was so important for you to get there? You wanted to tell them that you were.

B (78:20)

Well, that I didn't want a new charge. I didn't want to do. I was facing three more years in prison because of this situation. So, you know, I'm like.

A (78:27)

So they were going to get a lawyer for you?

B (78:29)

I was trying to get them to get a lawyer or get some sort of help or contact the prison or, you know, I started writing, like, the investigators, the. The IG officer, which is like the investigation group that investigates the. The police and all that stuff. So.

A (78:44)

And, and what. When you started reading the Bible, since you're not a religious person, what do you think in the Bible resonated with you? What were the messages? That sort of.

B (78:52)

I think. I think the biggest thing was just like, I don't know, you know, the book of Job, the book of Paul, you know, but what just like, always continues to do the right thing and live the right path and things will just work out no matter what, right? Like, you know, food will be provided, clothing will be Provided shelter will be provided. You know, if we stick in our process and trust that process, we don't have nothing to worry about. You know, God is gonna provide if we just do the right thing and. And treat people the right way. And that was just, like, my way of, like, trusting the process, you know, and that's how I, like, broke down, like Psalm 91. It talks about, like, stomping over, like, the cobra and, like, you're gonna have all these evil things, and. And so many arrows will strike you, but the arrow that's coming down won't strike you, you know, because you trust the process and you continue to do the right thing, you know, even when it's the hardest times in your life.

A (80:02)

And I guess you wouldn't. Had. You hadn't really thought about it that way, because in your experience, trusting the process hadn't led you anywhere, right?

B (80:11)

And I mean, for me, it was all instant gratification, right? There was no process. You know, it was just like, I gave you $20, you give me a bag. You know, the instant gratification was the money right away, right? So there was nothing that I had to, like, plan out or work on to get to a certain point, right?

A (80:33)

And also, I'm imagining as somebody who grew up with your parents working so hard day and night to provide for their family, like, seeing. And they trusted the process, right? And seeing that for them, trusting the process didn't get them anything. Right?

B (80:47)

But I also see them as, like, my mom, as the most successful person, right? You know, today she's 73. She does 100 burpees a day. She, you know, goes. Takes her vacations whenever she wants to, you know, is just recently retired, you know, but still works, you know, doing a whole bunch of stuff, you know, but like, that's real, you know, success for me, right? Living a long, healthy life, you know, that's it. And she only made 15 an hour at her highest peak, you know.

A (81:19)

Yeah, yeah, it's. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's a real revelation to have. And then so that you sort of decided, okay, I'm going to change my life around this. And it was the first time that you thought, okay, there is perhaps a future where I'm not selling drugs. Even though you ended up selling drugs anyway.

B (81:39)

But, yeah, yeah, but, yeah, no, and I was. I vowed, like, I was just not gonna hurt people anymore, you know, that I felt like with the healthy workout regimen, that I was gonna help people, and that's how I was gonna provide my give back to society. In a certain way. So I ended up doing another like year behind that situation in prison. And then I ended up coming home, back to the Lor east side, back to my mom's couch, you know. And I remember like coming home and the first thing, first day I went out to the park and I started working out and I took this broken piece of pipe and I started doing pull ups in the corner with it and it started attracting people, you know, like just people that were running. I'm like, hey, you want to work out? You know. And it was a whole different Lowry side, right from like, you know, the recession time. In like 08, I got locked up early. 09. And then like coming out in 2013 where I'm seeing like white woman running around with yoga pants, you know, and Instagram is now and Facebook a thing. And, and you know, I was, I got locked up with MySpace, you know, I remember like my username Costa Boss, you know. Yeah. With a D though, you know, and so it was a, it was a crazy, crazy time to come out and then like, like go right into fitness. It felt like, you know, perfect service to sell.

A (83:11)

You know, you talked about how you. One of the. It was just people, I think most people know this, but when, when you come out of prison, when you have a record, it's really hard to find a job, right? And, and when you came out, I'm sure the same thing for you, right? So what did you, what did you do? Like, how did you survive for the first few months and out of prison?

B (83:30)

So I was like non stop. I went to like Midtown and I was applying for jobs and at the time, you know, it was like every application, you know, you don't, you don't apply online anymore. Like, you don't apply on a piece of paper right, Anymore. So like I'm going up with a resume, I'm going dressing up with a, you know, a suit, tie, whatever, and then I'm going to like H M Macy's, whatever it is, and any retail store, any store I could get and just like filling out these job applications and I said, first name, last name. Have you ever been convicted of a crime? And I would have to check that box, you know, And I remember like handing that application over to those store managers and them giving me like a sign of like, we're gonna call you back. And I knew reading their body language that they were never going to call me back because they saw that top line, right? And it was just, I was resilient, I was non stop stop And I remember like waking up in the morning, 5:30 again, doing two workouts in the park, you know, then like trying to find any job. And then I was actually working for my uncle off the books because I'm a legal citizen. And then my uncle was like working as an immigrant illegal citizen as under somebody else's Social Security at the time. But he's getting paid 15 or 12 an hour and he's paying me $5 an hour to do the work, work for him, you know. So as a legal citizen in America, readapting back into society, I had to operate illegal, which is crazy.

A (85:03)

So crazy, you know.

B (85:04)

And so I was doing cleaning jobs, I was doing moving jobs, I was doing anything in between. And then I ended up doing, getting like this internship in Goodwill Industries where I basically like, like lied on the application, I didn't check the box. And I remember like them I was, I was doing an internship and working there. Nobody knew I was incarcerated, you know, and so I was just showing up every day, helping out, doing clerical work, copies, whatever. And the director asked me after they, they were gonna give me the job. They were like, hey, you missed something in your application. Do you have anything to tell us? And I was like, as a kid I did made a lot of mistakes. You know, you don't even have room for all the stuff in those three lines. What I have to say. But you know, she said she was gonna give me a chance and she gave me a chance. And then I was, I was hired as a resume writer. So I was like typing 40 resumes a day for like people that were in like, like NYCHA or people that needed jobs, unemployment, or people that were coming out of prison and did that for side full time job and then did my side hustles and then eventually went on to do my full time job as a fitness trainer.

A (86:26)

And so tell me. Yeah, so Con Body started with you basically with a makeshift bar at the park and getting people to join you. And then how did it grow?

B (86:36)

So yeah, I went from like a park, renting out little small ballet studios. Because that first year, you know, I thought everybody was resilient and working out. So I had no indoor location and it was freezing outside. So I'm like showing up and nobody's showing up, you know, And I showed up every day. I didn't care, you know, I was just on a different mindset. But then I found like these small little ballet studios that I started renting in 440 Lafayette, that street. And then I eventually moved on to like Another low, small little space behind a preschool. And then we got kicked out of the preschool because I told them I was doing Pilates. And then they found out it was Con Body and that and so I was subleasing it, so they kicked me out. And then I. I try to find another location and. And throughout this process. This is why I'm in la, because our documentary was in Sundance and then the director, it just got acquired by Cyterian and so they just featured in a ucla.

A (87:36)

That's great. So what the doc is about, Con Body.

B (87:39)

Five episodes about Con Body, me coming out of prison. She met me like a couple months out of prison and then started recording. And then the people that I've hired throughout that process.

A (87:50)

So. Yeah, so tell me. So a lot of the business plan, it's a fitness classes. Classes. But you actually, the fitness instructors are actually former convicts, right?

B (88:00)

Yes. So my whole model, when I started writing my actual real business plan was to like hire people coming out of the prison system to teach to fitness classes as a prison style boot camp, you know. So it's all calisthenics, no equipment, Cardio, calisthenic workout, 45 minutes.

A (88:19)

And part of it is because you wanted to give people who come out of prison a chance because a lot of them, it's really hard. Like it was for you, really hard to get a job. So you wanted to give people a chance to.

B (88:28)

Yeah, and it happened like pretty organically. You know, it was part of my business plan, but at the time I didn't have no money to hire anybody. And then eventually when I was sitting as in the resume lab, this guy who was, I was introduced to that needed a resume, did 14 years in prison and seven years in solitary. And he was my first hire. And it was just like as a contractor in the beginning and then eventually became one of my. My first employee. And then it started growing from there. Yeah, today, I mean, I probably hired a couple hundred people coming out of the prison system.

A (89:09)

Wow.

B (89:10)

You know, I have like 70 people on the team.

A (89:13)

No way. You know, that's incredible.

B (89:15)

And four different businesses.

A (89:18)

So. Okay, so you, you're all those people, not just for Con Body, for your other businesses as well. How many studios do you operate from?

B (89:26)

Just one now in New York. Yeah. And right over the dispensary. So.

A (89:31)

Yeah. So tell me about the dispensary. So then you started, you thought, there's a business. When marijuana became legal in New York, was it or. Tell me.

B (89:38)

Yeah. So in like 2018, 2017, I was approached by a friend who got one of the first Massachusetts cannabis licenses. This guy was like, used to buy weed off of me 20 years ago. I was trafficking to, like, Rhode island. And then he's like, yo, I seen you on the news. I seen you run a business and you got combo body. And, you know, I don't know what to do with the business and you know about weed more than I do. And he was like, oh, can. Can you be the CEO of the company? I was like, like, I don't know how I'm going to be the CEO, but it you're going to pay me, I'm going to take it, you know, I'll figure it out, you know. So eventually he brought my paperwork to get into the system over there, but they didn't allow people with criminal records, so people that sold. We couldn't sell weed legally, you know, So I remember at the time, like, being discouraged about it. You know, I did social media posts about it and then like, like speaking on panels about it, you know, and like, advocating like, this is so messed up. Right. Like, how can the people that got harmed the most not, like, reap the benefits from it, you know?

A (90:50)

Yeah. They're being sort of shunned to the, to the edges of this big news business opportunity. The same happened, I'm sure, you know, in California. I did a story about the black market for weed here in California because it actually grew exponentially even after legalization. Most people don't know this, but a lot of the people that I ended up speaking, speaking with were people who had spent time in prison for. For, you know, for smoking a blunt or for selling a few. A little. A few ounces of weed. And then when they actually wanted to turn their businesses into a legal business, they were not. They were shot. They were not allowed to, which is incredibly unfair.

B (91:28)

Yeah. And I know people that did it and then also got federally indicted in California and got prison time, you know, for it, because it's federal. It's still federally legal.

A (91:38)

Yeah.

B (91:38)

You know, but after, like, when Obama came in, he said, don't touch the states that are legal. And that's when the federal enforcements, you know, really stop.

A (91:47)

Yeah.

B (91:48)

But now, you know, it's. It's crazy, right? Like, for me, somebody that's been, like, stopped by NYPD and all this stuff, we were granted that First Avenue. Right. So what New York State did was that, like, wrote a law, the mrta, to state that the people that were most affected should reap the benefits and the equal amounts of ownership should be divided at least 50%.

A (92:13)

And that was written by you. I mean you were the one the.

B (92:16)

I didn't, I didn't write it. No, you didn't write the law, but

A (92:18)

you were the engine behind the law. Like the idea, you were the one who started this idea.

B (92:21)

No, it was more just like advocating and then there was groups pushing for it. So in 2021, you know, I, like, I were helping these groups and all that stuff, but there was a lot of people behind.

A (92:33)

Okay.

B (92:33)

Before me.

A (92:34)

Was New York the first state to ever do that?

B (92:38)

Yes. So New York state was the first to ever have people that were convicted to go first before these big multi state medical operators. Even though the medical operators were already operating in a medical side, but they couldn't go into the recreational side. So the law was basically written to state that they had to wait two years after we got our license and then they sued the state and they got those two years drops and they got to skip the line anyway because

A (93:10)

that would be, that would help you

B (93:12)

guys capture market share because that's what first the market is always the ones that win in this, in this cannabis game.

A (93:20)

Right, right. And, and obviously you can't compete against these big corporations because they have all the money, this large investment money that they can invest in these businesses and really grow it much faster than you guys could.

B (93:30)

Well, they, they, they out. So it's, they race to the bottom, you know. So basically I'm gonna give you an example, right? Today I buy, let's say eight for $10 and I sell it for 20 bucks, right? They, that same eighth that I buy for $10, they, they're the only ones that are allowed to grow it, it and sell it. So they could grow it and, and for a dollar and sell it, still sell it for 20.

A (93:54)

Right.

B (93:55)

Now they'll go to my store and say like, hey, I'll give you, I'll beat the farmers prices of $10. I'll give you everything for $5. Right? And so I'm like, great, I'll take all the stuff, you know, like this is way cheaper, you know. And so, but then when all the farmers are gone and they out of business and only the medical operators are operating and you're still buying it for $5. Tomorrow they raise the $7. Yeah, now and then your profit margins are getting thinner and thinner and then they're like, oh, you don't got no money to operate anymore.

A (94:30)

Well, we'll buy you out.

B (94:31)

I'll buy you out for pennies on the dollar. You Know, and so that's what I've been explaining with the regulators in New York now is that let's. We're creating like a set, a different spreadsheet, you know, and so we put regulations in terms of, like, how much you could discount, you know, and how much shelf space they're allowed in their own stores as medical operators, so making a more even playing field. And New York State is the only state that's been today operating in a profit in cannabis. You know, every state has failed because of the drive to the. The race to the bottom by these big companies, by these big corporations.

A (95:10)

And your business is called Kanbud Khanbud. How many dispensaries do you own?

B (95:16)

Three locations. Now, I'm not fully owner. I have partners on. On those, but I have one that I own, which is in the Lower east side.

A (95:25)

Is it. Is it. Yeah. Is it crazy that you're back in the Lower east side selling. Selling weed, but now legally three blocks

B (95:31)

from my mom's house, like, three blocks from my weed block, you know, two blocks from where I got arrested the first time. You know, like, it's. And then on Main street, like, I'm on Delante and Orchard street, which is like. Like huge corner, you know, and it's unbelievable. You know, sometimes I feel like I'm living some sort of a dream, you know, but then it's just so much work that I'm like, every day feels like the first day, you know.

A (96:00)

Yeah, yeah. You let. You wake up happy. Going to work, like, this is like running a business. I mean, you've been running a business essentially since you were like, 13 or 14 years old, right?

B (96:08)

Yeah. And. And then I got people that were selling with me 20 years ago now selling with me again in the shop. You. That's awesome. You know, guys that were. I was sending commissary money to prison are not working with me in the. Stop. You know, we also, like, worked on advocating to change the law in terms of having probation and parolees to work with us, because that was against the law. And so we. We amended the law to do that. And now I have people, parole officers coming in, you know, and, like, say, checking up on, you know, employees. And. And it's. And we build a relationship with, like, so much mutual respect, you know, and it's. And thank God we've been able to, like, create a lot of great trust.

A (96:50)

Yeah, that's pretty amazing. I remember I wrote down something which was that you. One of the things you realized when you were in prison was that the prisons are full of people with a lot of talent. Right. And there's actually a lot of entrepreneurs there. Right. In these black markets in general, whether it's drugs or whatever it is, it's filled with people that are really skilled at selling and distributing and a lot of hustlers. A lot of hustlers. Right. And I was actually. It's something that I've noticed too, in my reporting throughout, you know, covering black markets. Like, you can't. I'm constantly talking to these people that are geniuses in their fields, but their field isn't legal. But if they had the opportunity. Yeah, they had the opportunity to work in a legal field, they'd be like. Like CEOs and whatnot of these big corporations. And so I was researching this because I was wondering if there was a stat for this or any study been done on this. And it turns out that there was an economist at the UC Santa Cruz that ran the numbers and found three overlapping traits between drug dealers and successful entrepreneurs. One is a dislike of having a boss. Two, an appetite for risk. And three, raw entrepreneurial ability. The kind that helps you build a successful drug business. Is successful. Is also the same kind that helps you start a legal. A successful legal business. Right. Yeah.

B (98:16)

I. I see all the transferable skills, you know, from being an illegal entrepreneur to becoming a legal entrepreneur. I think the only difference, you know, was like, for me personally was a time lapse, you know, just like, you know, operating in a marble notebook now, dealing with spreadsheets and reading P. Ls and, you know, and all this stuff, you know, and paying taxes, you know.

A (98:39)

Yeah, yeah. And one more thing. Just that it was that black markets don't create talent, but they capture it when the legal economy doesn't, which I love.

B (98:49)

Yeah. I think that's. That's fact. Right. I don't know. As hustlers and as a black market, we see opportunities, right. Where there's a problem, where there's a missing factor. We're there to like, like, be problem solvers. I also. I feel like I learned that from my. My parents too, you know, like, they've always, like, figured out problems, right? You know, like how to get out from a dirt town where you hearing, like, the metal sing. And they sleeping on a. On a floor, Right?

A (99:19)

Yeah.

B (99:19)

To coming. To sleeping on a bed.

A (99:21)

Yeah.

B (99:22)

You know, it's. It's. It's a lot of work, you know, and they did it.

A (99:26)

Yeah. 100. How are your parents now? Are they so proud of you?

B (99:29)

You? Yeah, yeah. No My. Well, my mom doesn't like the weed part, you know, But. But, yeah, overall, I think she respects the. The mission. Right. Like, she's seen so many people that I've touched, so many people that I've hired. Right. Like, and she's great relationships with them, and it's. It's crazy, you know, to. To see where. Where it's gone. You know, where it is.

A (99:54)

Yeah. And how about your song son?

B (99:57)

He's good. And he's 18.

A (99:59)

No way.

B (100:00)

Yeah, he's 18. He's in Rochester Institute of Technology.

A (100:04)

Nice.

B (100:05)

Studying aerospace mechanical engineering.

A (100:07)

No way.

B (100:08)

So he's trying to be a nerd, you know, but he. I don't know. He. He took a lot of. I don't know. I just keep it very transparent with him, and I never heard anything from him. And I think that's. That's helped them, you know, and then also, like, seeing the. Taking the right path and seeing it into fruition, where it's at right now, you know?

A (100:32)

Yeah. It's been such a great time. I really enjoyed talking to you, and I'm really impressed by what you've built. And I. I think there's this business side of it, but there's also the impact side of it, which is huge. Right. All the amount of people that you've been able to help through your business.

B (100:47)

Yeah.

A (100:48)

Pretty special.

B (100:48)

And one thing, one last thing, you know, like Martin Luther King, we have a statement outside our building in the. You know, from where our stores are. And we. He basically states, like, the largest problem and the biggest thing that we're gonna try to solve as a society together is going to be the criminal justice system and the rehabilitation. Rehabilitation system. So, like he said, that's the largest problem that we got to try to fix because it's broken and then it's not working.

A (101:15)

Right. And it's forgotten so often. Right. Because people think that inmates don't deserve anything.

B (101:22)

And they actually flew me out to the United nations and. And Vienna.

A (101:29)

Oh, wow.

B (101:30)

And they had me speak as, like, an example on how to roll out legalization across the world. So the director of human rights in the UN, he has a report that is due by 2030 to decriminalize drugs around the whole world. And so they were using me as an example of, like, how they should do it in every place around the world, which is crazy, right?

A (101:53)

I mean. And you're the perfect expert because you've had experiences on both sides, right? On the legal and the illegal side. Yeah. That's really crazy.

B (101:59)

That's crazy.

A (102:00)

Well, congratulations on everything you've accomplished.

B (102:03)

Thank you.

A (102:03)

Thank you so much for coming on the Hidden Third.

B (102:05)

You already know. Appreciate you. This is amazing. Thank you.

A (102:09)

Oh, thank you,

B (102:13)

Sam.