Russian Sex Spy | The Hidden Third with Mariana van Zeller

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Russian Sex Spy | The Hidden Third with Mariana van Zeller

Date: November 19, 2025
Host: Mariana van Zeller
Guest: Aliyah Rosa, former Russian "sex spy"

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Episode Overview

In this gripping episode, Mariana van Zeller sits down with Aliyah Rosa, a self-proclaimed former Russian “sex spy” who defected after falling in love with a crime boss. Together, they delve into the secret world of sexpionage—a covert program within Russian (and formerly Soviet) intelligence, where women and sometimes men are extensively trained to use seduction and psychological manipulation as tools of espionage. The conversation covers Aliyah’s harrowing upbringing in post-Soviet Russia, her coerced entry into the intelligence world, the realities and psychological toll of sexpionage, and her controversial and publicly challenged journey to exposing this hidden world.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Is A Sex Spy?

[01:11–03:00]

• Aliyah explains that “sex spies”—or honeypots—are agents recruited by intelligence agencies (notably KGB and its successors, but not uniquely Russian) to seduce targets, extract information, and sometimes manipulate or eliminate threats. The concept originated during WWII and was heavily formalized in the Soviet era.
• "These ladies had to go and seduce targets wherever whoever could be, get information, deliver this information to the commander, to the government, and then just be basically the puppets." – Aliyah [02:30]

2. Aliyah’s Soviet Background and Family Pressure

[03:05–17:50]

• Born in the USSR to a family of military officers; moved often due to her father’s career, finally settling in Moscow post-1991.
• Experienced racism as the only Asian girl in her class, leading to a sense of outsiderness.
• Her father ingrained patriotism and military discipline—and even tactical and psychological training—into her from a young age.
• "I was the only one Asian girl in the school with all these, you know, kids, blonde, blue eyes. So I was bullied." – Aliyah [04:20]
• She was pressured into the intelligence academy straight after high school, despite her personal desire to pursue fashion.

3. Recruitment & Training as a Sexpionage Agent

[19:02–58:17]

• Aliyah describes her compulsory immersion into secret intelligence work:
  • Initial assignment in crime investigation → moved to drug enforcement (FSKN), focusing on operations established by Putin to combat Afghan drug trade.
  • Sexpionage program is highly secretive; even family is not informed.
  • Male sex spies known as "Romeos," females as "Swallows" (e.g., reference to popular culture's "Red Sparrow").
• Training involved:
  • Psychological manipulation, seduction, persuasion, body language
  • Weapons and combat, extreme driving, and confidence building
  • Specialized sexual techniques for seduction (with extensive practical instruction)
• "80% of our education were psychological techniques which are manipulation, influence, seduction, sex techniques and. And persuasion. All these techniques are very important for recruiting your targets." – Aliyah [26:54]

4. Real-World Missions & Moral Complexity

[08:19–36:38, 69:15–81:08]

• Initial targets for Aliyah were not political, but criminal: human traffickers, pedophiles, and dangerous crime bosses.
• Aliyah discusses her participation in "terminating" criminal targets, expressing a longstanding internal struggle between guilt and rationalization:
  • "I used to feel like a murderer… But again, on another hand, I feel like a hero." [34:42]
• She recounts an operation where, after seducing a target, she allowed her team to enter and kill the individual. The psychological toll of those missions haunted her for years.
• The culture within her department was deeply corrupt, and she eventually realized she was being used in the service of personal gain—money and power—not justice.

5. Abuse Within The System

[19:06–58:17]

• Aliyah recounts systemic sexual abuse suffered by herself and other recruits—rape was used as a "training tool" for future sexpionage agents to "disassociate" from their bodies and prevent emotional attachments to targets.
• "They disassociate your body from your emotions… where as a future female agents… you would never have any attachments to your target." [53:58]
• The experience fundamentally changed her relationship with sex and trust.

6. Technique Insights: The Psychology of Seduction

[35:21–46:10]

• Aliyah shares nuts-and-bolts elements of seduction training:
  • Bond-building through shared interests and emotional mimicry
  • Non-verbal body language—posture, open gestures, touch, and appearance management
  • Subtle psychological mirroring and anchoring
  • "The art of seduction… is to establish trust through building bond." [35:36]
  • They also learned practical sexual techniques (detailed sexual acts were taught—including the infamous "spy blowjob").
• She now coaches women using these principles for confidence and empowerment.

7. Question of Credibility and Public Doubt

[86:00–99:17]

• Mariana addresses widespread public and journalistic doubts about Aliyah’s story, notably a Vice documentary accusing Aliyah of fabricating evidence (e.g., faked photos, posh Airbnb pretending to be her home, fake friends at a party).
• Aliyah claims the Vice crew manipulated the story, asking her to stage settings and selectively edit footage.
• Mariana weighs journalistic due diligence with Aliyah’s answers and gives listeners space to decide on authenticity.

8. Defection and Present-Day Risks

[81:41–108:08]

• After the murder of her crime boss lover (Vladimir), whom Aliyah was tasked to infiltrate but eventually sought to protect, she fled Russia fear for her safety from both government and criminals.
• Following a circuitous escape route (Turkey → Greece → Switzerland → London → US), she was advised by US immigration lawyers to go public as a means of protection.
• Aliyah acknowledges the risk, but argues that exposure is her best defense and has already cost her professionally.
• "From two evils, you choose the lesser… if I would just quit and disappear I'd be at greater risk than if I remain public." [105:23]
• She says her life now is more about awareness and empowerment than espionage.

9. Sexpionage Today and Its Global Impact

[99:17–104:30]

• The practice of sexpionage continues, with recent high-profile cases involving Russian or Chinese operatives attempting to extract trade secrets from Silicon Valley.
• Aliyah points out that the economic damage from these leaks is estimated at $600 billion a year for the US.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "You have to go to the military. And I'm like, dad, I want to do fashion. Like, I. You know, this is my passion." – Aliyah [18:04]
• "Your body belongs to the state, belongs to the government. You do the right thing, which is you protecting civilians and you're helping your country and you have to be proud of that." – Aliyah [57:51]
• (On seduction) “It’s not about the appearance, it’s about your charisma…your confidence…you want a man to think he is smart…and this is the most important.” [46:10]
• (On integrating into criminal targets’ lives) “Sometimes these girls, they're sort of like not particular agents, but they collaborate with secret intelligence…sometimes they also would operate through these celebrities.” [40:39–41:50]
• (On deep psychological impact) "I can even tell right now, like I am struggling having trustworthy relationships with men…for me, sex is completely different from like having trust.” [54:42]
• (On fleeing Russia) "Vladimir was the one who gave me telephone numbers of people, his friends in Turkey and then in Europe, in Greece, in Switzerland. And I moved to Turkey…” [83:00]
• (On public skepticism) “It is normal for people not to believe me, and I don't push them to believe me. Of course. And it's all about me sharing my story…It's up to you." [110:13]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:53 — Introduction: Who is Aliyah Rosa?
• 01:11–03:00 — What is a sex spy / “honeypot”?
• 03:05–07:35 — Childhood and family background
• 11:23–13:01 — Early psychological and tactical training by her father
• 19:06–21:35 — First military and intelligence postings
• 23:20–26:00 — Going public; media attention (“Red Sparrow” and press conflation)
• 26:54–29:44 — Training: sex, psychology, and persuasion
• 34:19–35:10 — Moral reflections on operations and killing
• 35:21–46:10 — Seduction techniques and body language analysis
• 53:58–55:13 — The psychological aftermath of trauma; sex vs. love
• 69:15–81:08 — Major mission infiltration, relationship with Vladimir, and his death
• 86:00–98:16 — Journalistic scrutiny and defense against accusations of fabrication
• 99:17–104:30 — Sexpionage in the West and Silicon Valley; economic impact
• 104:49–108:08 — Risks of public exposure, contacts with Russian officials
• 110:20 — Final reflections; public skepticism and mission to expose the secret world

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Episode Tone

The conversation is direct, raw, and often emotionally charged. Mariana maintains a skeptical but respectful journalistic approach, challenging Aliyah on her claims and inviting her to address the controversy. Aliyah is candid about her trauma, expresses both pride and sorrow over her past, and balances a sometimes-confident demeanor with moments of vulnerability.

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For Listeners

This episode provides a rare, deeply personal look inside the murky mechanics of sexpionage, including the psychological and sexual manipulation tools used, the human cost for those on the inside, and the very real, ongoing global ramifications. Aliyah’s story is contested and controversial—both a revelation and a challenge for listeners to engage critically with "the underground markets that quietly power a third of the global economy."

“It’s up to you.” – Aliyah [110:13]

Transcript

[A]

And then I just opened the door, let, you know, my team inside, I left, and they did the whole thing, and they just clean it up, and that's it.

[B]

And how did you feel after that?

[A]

It's a bad guy, you know, I know exactly what he did. I used to feel really guilty. I used to feel like a murderer. You know, I felt like I have a blood in my hands and all this. But again, on another hand, I feel like a hero. Like, you know, how many people did I save by just like infiltrating this, you know, criminal and doing all the operation together with my team.

[B]

But there was a point where you didn't feel like you're here anymore, which is why you left. Right. Which I also want to get to.

[A]

I got manipulated really badly, and I had to find the way out.

[B]

So, Aliyah Rosa, you. You have one of the craziest stories I've ever heard, and I have heard plenty of crazy stories, but you're a former Russian sex spy. You defected after you fell in love with a crime boss, and now you're here. So welcome to the show.

[A]

Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

[B]

I really want to go into your whole backstory, but I would like to start by asking you, what exactly is a sex spy for people who don't know what that means? Because I don't think a lot of people do.

[A]

Absolutely. You know, funny enough, actually I would say every time I would ask someone, nobody knows, which is so interest. So, for example, in Soviet Union, post Soviet Union countries, people know what is it? But here and in Europe, like, they don't have any idea. Right? So honeypot, honey trap, sex espionage. It's a special program based in secret intelligence agencies, as much as we know. It's actually started from. I would actually say from Britain, by the way, which is interesting. And that's what we've learned. When I studied in the academy and. And Stalin during the second war and everything, when he saw that there are sex spies, female beautiful sex spies who would seduce military officers to get information about operations during second war, he gave an order to create that special department where that time enceved, but then it was further formed to kgb. They would basically hire enrolled these young, beautiful females from prestigious universities, or perhaps there would be already established celebrities, like beautiful models, actresses, singers, and basically, you cannot say no to the government. These ladies had to go and seduce targets wherever whoever could be, get information, deliver this information to the commander, to the government, and then just be basically the puppets.

[B]

And this is what essentially happened to You.

[A]

My story is a little bit different, but.

[B]

Yes, but let's start then from the beginning. So tell me a little bit. You grew up in Russia, in Moscow, is that right?

[A]

Yes. So that time when I was born in actually 1984, that time it was still USSR. So I was born in the country which doesn't exist anymore, which is funny. My parents, my heritage coming from Kazakhstan and Tatarstan. So my parents, my father was a high ranking officer. So we literally would move, our family would move from one city to another city and that time different republics. But then we ended up living in Russian side, which was Moscow when you saw fall in 1991. So then my dad decided, because of his job, he didn't decide to go back to Kazakhstan or wherever. So we ended up living in Russia and we received Russian passports. And I was the only one Asian girl in the school with all these, you know, kids, blonde, blue eyes. So I was bullied. Were you badly? Yes, I was actually children. They wouldn't understand why I'm so Asian. Right. Like they wouldn't understand like Kazakhstan and like whatever it, Uzbekistan, Tatarstan. So they felt like I'm from China, so they would tell me go back to China. And I was of course devastated and all that. But like now I understand. It's, you know those people who has like different tones of skins. They totally understand me. Like, what does it mean to be kind of like a leftover or outsider in the group? Yes, you feel different, right?

[B]

And so you felt different growing up when you were a kid?

[A]

Very much so. Very much so. And then after 91, it was almost like a civil revolution in, in Russia.

[B]

Perestroika.

[A]

Exactly. I just wanted to say, yes, Perestroika, you know this name. And it was really terrible. I'm trying to kind like I will try to explain what really happened because that time was the time where people literally didn't have food. So I remember I was that time like seven, eight years old and I had little sister who was two years old. And my dad would all this work in the job, like 24, 7, totally busy and he wasn't get paid because there was like, you know, perestroika, no money in the country. It was absolutely cows. And we would stand under the rain, under the, you know, snow, four, five hours a day in order to get just one piece of bread and like one sausage or whatever. So they would literally give you food according to how many members in the family are standing in the line.

[B]

And this was the government giving out food?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean you still have to buy it. But when you would come to the.

[B]

Store, there was just not.

[A]

There was nothing. Like, you cannot literally feed your kids and his.

[B]

I remember I read that your grandfather was also. Also sort of a war hero, right? He fought in the war against the Nazis.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And that you looked up to him.

[A]

Of course. I mean, Stalingrad, right? Like one of the biggest second war fight in Russia happened there. So many soldiers were killed and my, my family name is literally written. It's like a monument in Stalingrad in this like beautiful monument where it's the, the statue of the motherland. And they're like some, not so many, but like there's some names written on the wall where the of those soldiers who really like, you know, fought for Nancy and all this. Of course, when I was a little kid, I would come there, my father would be so proud to show me, you know, our family name. And it would be like, you know, you have to, you have to also be military. You have to go and like follow our family footprint, footprints and our past.

[B]

That's what happened when you became a teenager, right?

[A]

Yes. So interestingly, I didn't even understood till later when I became mom myself. My father. Oh my God, my father. I love him so much. But is he still alive? Yes, he's still alive. We have quite normal family, parenting, kind of like relationship like father and daughter. But we are kind of like not allowed to speak about any political situations in the countries just because first of all, they just don't understand each other. He's very much Soviet Union patriot. I am not. Because I'm almost like 20 years out of the, you know, living out of Russia.

[B]

But I mean, more than that. Not the time. But you've, you're more than not. You're a defector. You're almost like an enemy of the state. Right. Aren't you now divulging secrets of how.

[A]

Yeah, but I never really shared the secret, secret, secret. So actually I was like thinking, you know, I'm actually doing something good for, for, for the whole Russian intelligence service because I'm sort of like promoting the agency in a good way, in a way where I, for example, never infiltrated political or, you know, gangs or like bands or whatever. I never infiltrated ministers. I never like really did like kind of like bad things between countries or whatever.

[B]

Right? You weren't, you weren't. Your targets weren't political targets. Your targets were actually criminals.

[A]

Criminals, like bad guys. And bad guys, I'm talking about like really bad guys who would kidnap underage kids for the sex trafficking. And it would be like a huge business. Like, it's not just like a few, they were like thousands of them.

[B]

So I want to get there. I'm a little confused about why they would need a sex by to get to the criminals and not. Why just not deploy, you know, the agencies and law enforcement.

[A]

That's why I, I did everything to leave, because that would, that would be my next missions to go to do.

[B]

Sort of political targets.

[A]

Yes, yes. And actually that was my problem when I used to live in Europe because the Russian government still pushed me and still kind of like created everything for me to go and spy on. For example, Russian escaped oligarchs, you know, transfer all this money from Russia and invest into British or European assets and companies. And of course, this was like Russian, Russian money. So I had some missions over there, but I don't really kind of like it. It wasn't something where you go and like terminate the target. It was literally like spying, getting information, observing, analyzing.

[B]

So you had some oligarchs who were your targets for some time in Europe. Yes, but have you ever revealed information on who exactly they were or.

[A]

No, I can't, because they're still alive. I mean, like, I don't want to be targeted by them.

[B]

So you think that you haven't been targeted yet because you haven't divulged that much information. Exactly. And the way you portray your training is actually quite good for the state. You portray it as incredible training and how professional the Russian intelligence system is.

[A]

Yes, and this is true. It's one of the most powerful, you know, agencies, they have just the most powerful, I would say, techniques on psychology, on like human psychology. And I do believe that if, you know, in schools, universities, there would be certain subjects to teach, the art of communication. People would be, you know, it would be so much easier for people to spot any manipulation and not to get into bad business or romantic relationships where they would spot, like, manipulation.

[B]

Right. Particularly now in the age of scams and.

[A]

Exactly. Especially online, you know, dating or whatever. Or like, you saw this recent New York Post, right, where I gave an interview how to spot manipulation, especially for the Silicon Valley executives and CEOs of IT companies.

[B]

I want to get there in a second. I do want to talk about the defectors, because there have been defectors who have been killed. But we'll get there in a little bit. I wanted to go back. Okay, so you're a teenager and your father, you come from a very patriotic family. Your father works in the Military and intelligence. And then how did you join?

[A]

So my father, from early age actually taught me the whole psychological techniques. I didn't even understood the time, but he would literally every single evening would, you know, sit down with me after dinner and for an hour or two, he would literally like, tell me like different situations in life. And like, he would say like, what. That. What agents would do. They would do this, this, this. Okay, here is a test for you. You know, what would you do? And I would like, you know, pick up from his brain and literally like taught by him.

[B]

And then he was training you since you were here?

[A]

He was training me. This is number one. Number two, when I was a teenager, he actually introduced me to the gun shooting. So I sort of like fell in love to this power. Having a gun in your hand, where he would train me how to shoot and then got into. When I got enrolled to the academy, I actually became like, I won a competition between sort of like states which calls oblast in Russia. I was the first and the best gun shooter from pistolet Makarov, which is gun Makarov in the state. That's how like my father trained me.

[B]

How old were you when you started shooting guns?

[A]

Well, early, like from like literally. So as much as I remember myself, psychological training from early, early age and then the gun shooting, I Remember was about 12 years old. So, yeah, extreme driving, same story. He literally told me how to like extreme drive on. We had that time, manual car, like, you know, me too. That's how I grew up. Exactly. So, you know, like how to fill the speed, how to fill the car.

[B]

Especially this is in case you were being chased or you had to flee a place, everything.

[A]

I think he prepared me for such a big mission and that's why, you know, when I kind of like flee the country, he didn't speak with me for like a year because he just didn't want to like, lose me as an agent. He would still like, tell me, like, you should come back and maybe restart your career.

[B]

Does he know what happened to you while you were an agent? Does he know what they did to you?

[A]

You know what? I think he understands that that possible, but he understand that it's also part of the training. Okay. It's part of the who you're supposed to be. And I don't know. I mean, of course he knows, but we just pretend we don't speak about it.

[B]

I know you did a podcast, right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

To Die for, where you speak at length about all your whole life and you go into some of the horrible things that happened to you. Do you think he's ever listened to that podcast?

[A]

No. First of all, due to the Ukrainian war, Spotify, Apple and audible Alpha bands in Russian. Second, he doesn't speak English, so no.

[B]

Would you want him to listen to it?

[A]

He had cancer. That's why he retired and all that. So I don't want like he had. He would have. You see, like the thing is, like I'm parent myself. Like I'm having these questions, like I try to be a good parent for my son where we have like friendship rather than parenting. Parenting. You know what I'm saying? Like, oh, you must do this and must do this because I'm your mother you have to listen to. I'm more like trying to find this communication with him, like to be a friend.

[B]

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[A]

But my parents, they are from another gender. It's another era. It's another, like, time. So we would never kind of, like, be able to build this relationship. So I don't want even to get into the past. And what is the point, you know, to blame him? I don't want to do. It took me 17 years of therapy to actually accept the rape and the sexual abuse which I've been experiencing for years, in order to be here and openly speak about it.

[B]

I think it would be more of an understanding on his part as to why you left and why you would never be able to go back.

[A]

Yeah, I know exactly everything. Why he actually, like, brought me there. I know exactly why he was doing this. Because, look, he is coming from a military family background. This is the only one way he sees the life, like, where you're supposed to work and live your life. This is the only one way. If I would come, when I came to him and say, I want to work in fashion, he literally just couldn't understand what fashion is not. Because.

[B]

He didn't think that was a viable option at all. He was like, what do you mean?

[A]

Absolutely? No. Yeah, it's a very narrow thinking, brainwashed by the system mentality, where this is the only one path. You know, like horses, they have, like, these things, and, like, they look only, like, one way. They cannot, like, go to, like, left or right. So that's exactly how my parents are. Like my father particular. So I cannot blame him for this. You know, he was raised like that.

[B]

And so you were how old when he decided he wanted to take you to the academy?

[A]

Straight after the high school, like, literally, I turned. I just turned 18. No, he started this conversation a year ago.

[B]

Telling you what? Telling you I want.

[A]

You have to go to the military. And I'm like, dad, I want to. I want to do fashion. Like, I. You know, this is my passion. In fact, like, finally, like, I do some fashionable things in my life, and I'm super happy about it. But that time he said, like, no, like, what is fashion? You have one skirt, one blouse, one shoes. That's enough. This is your fashion. Like, so go. And I couldn't. Also, I'm coming from a Muslim background. I wouldn't say my parents are very religious or whatever, but the structure of the family. The woman have to be obedient. The woman cannot speak out. The woman cannot have neither her own opinion, her friends, her hobbies. The woman has to follow the man's guide. That's it, you know, black and white. And I was raised like that. My mom is like that, my sister is like that. So I Didn't see any other options for myself. And then he said, like, you have to go. I was like, okay, I to go. There's no other option.

[B]

And then. So how was it? So he enrolled you in the military, he dropped you off?

[A]

So, yeah, so he brought me to my first department. It was the department where I first was raped by my commander colleague.

[B]

And what was that called?

[A]

The. The. So this is department investigating crime department. Particular. But it was in the States. So in inside indoor.

[B]

Is there equivalent in the United States that I could try to figure?

[A]

Yes. So basically it was very connected to. Second, my department was dea, so it's connected. So. Da. It's like the Dragon, right?

[B]

Enforcement Agency. So it was sort of the equivalent of the dea. Sort of in Russia.

[A]

Yeah, but it wasn't just dea. It was also sex trafficking. So I. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, and so it was. Was an agency that belonged. That was under the military. It was a military agency that investigated crimes such as drugs, drug trafficking and sex trafficking.

[A]

Yeah, particular. Okay, so I'm trying. I will try to explain our beloved audience. So fsb, right. This is a secret intelligence agency. Underneath them they have different departments. So FSKN was a department established by Vladimir Putin to particularly investigate drug trafficking coming from Afghanistan to Russia. So. And then it was dissolved after, I don't know, whatever years. But like that time it was established and I was enrolled there.

[B]

That's where you enrolled. That was the first place you were enrolled?

[A]

No, this was my second place.

[B]

Second. Okay, so the first one was which one?

[A]

Which is like basically the crime investigation department.

[B]

So you. And the idea was that you were going to go in and train to become what?

[A]

I actually, I. I think that my father doesn't know that I was enrolled into a sex Espanage program. Because first of all, this is very classified information. And even when we were studying this, you know, program, we were not allowed to share with even none of our colleagues, our family members or anyone. For example, there were girls, like one girl who was actually married and she couldn't tell her husband about like what she was studying. Same with males, you know, Romeo's, which are male agents. Same story. Whatever they studied there, they wouldn't share with us. We wouldn't know.

[B]

So the men are called Romeos. What are the women called?

[A]

Swallows.

[B]

Swallows, that's right.

[A]

But in the book it's a red sparrow, but I don't know, maybe.

[B]

So there was a book that was. Became a very famous Hollywood movie.

[A]

Yes. Jennifer Lawrence.

[B]

Jennifer Lawrence, right. And they changed the name from red swallow to dread.

[A]

Yeah, I think, like, maybe because it's to kind of like swallow it a little bit.

[B]

Right, right. I think people would think of it, have a second interpretation of it.

[A]

I think so.

[B]

And, and did you read the book before you came out or watched the movie? Did you watch the movie before?

[A]

I watched the movie much. I saw, I watched the movie just a few years ago. I didn't know about the book and the movie.

[B]

Had you already come out as a, had you already sort of confessed or started talking about the fact that you were in.

[A]

Yeah, it's actually was introduced in the Fox News the first time they invited me. I'll tell the pre story about it. So when the Ukraine was started, I, I swear to God, I would never imagine that it would become so viral. I just basically stated my opinion about like the Ukrainian war to a very small press outlet. It was small. I, I, you know, the journalist is my friend. He's like, please, what do you think? I know you've been in the military without even knowing about like, you know, spy or whatever. What do you think about this situation? So I shared my opinion in the small outlet and I said like, I was an agent of sort of like dea, blah, blah, blah. So I know how the whole military, like, you know, works and all this. Then from there it just one by one, one by one, one, one by one, it became viral and more viral and more viral. Then like all this, like New York Post, the Sun, tmz, all this, like, yeah, Fox, like, they all came. They're like, we need you.

[B]

And they were asking at the time for information on Ukraine. They needed people to talk about insiders from Russia, right, who spent time in the military there, who could talk about what's happening and what their thoughts are on that.

[A]

Exactly. And then like the Fox News, like, Brian Kimli asked me, so who are you? Like, then I said like, well, I am a secret. I'm a former secret agent. I used to do blah, blah, blah. He's like, okay, so a former Russian spy, sex spy. Because I shared that I would infiltrate my targets using seduction, spy psychological techniques which I studied in the program.

[B]

Right. So that was not a term that.

[A]

You actually used yourself. Absolutely not. I was just speaking with my manager right now, like while I was coming here, stuck in traffic. She said, like, did you see Fox News published literally today, the article about like, also you add, like they mentioned you as a former CAA agent. I'm like, oh my God, this press, this is crazy. Now I'm a former Ca. So, yeah, so you never kind of know. But I shared, like, so the only one. That's why I'm so thankful for you to invite me for your interview, because at least I can speak my truth, like, from my side. Because, you know, when press writes, they need to sell the article, right? So they put all this sometimes absolutely crazy highlights, and I'm like, what can I do?

[B]

And there's also a lot of people. When I was doing research, I have to tell you that there's a lot of people that doubt your story. They really think you're.

[A]

Of course. Absolutely. Because, I mean, look, nobody knows what is sexpanias, right? How they supposed to believe, like, a kind of like, Russian chick who's, like, in la Influencer, right? Like, I have, like, big blog and Instagram. I. I mean, like, I started it because I. I'm in fashion, so I'm doing this for the fashion purposes. And actually I make money because, like, infl. Influencers, you know, like, that's the way they make their revenue, right? Like, they promote products, they get paid. So that was like, my thing after I finished with my military career. And of course people doubt it. They think, like, oh, my God, like, you know, it's so weird because first of all, people do not really my story. Not so many people. I mean, like, there were a huge amount of downloads, which were like, more than, like, millions of the podcast to die for. And it got top six in the world last year. But again, not so many people know about it, so sometimes.

[B]

So this is the podcast about your life, Right?

[A]

So people, of course they doubt and they think, like, I don't know what is honey trap? I don't know what is sex banished. So, of course people doubt it. I. I don't blame them. We all have our own opinion. And I'm not here, like, to push you to believe me or not. I share my story. You want to believe it, Great. You don't want to believe it. Like, I mean, what can I do? Don't believe it. Like, whatever.

[B]

Yeah, I want. I want to get there, but I do want to first hear your story.

[A]

So, yes.

[B]

Back to you go. So you're in this. And I listened to the podcast and. Oh, thank you.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

And I'm not going to make you repeat some of the stories, but essentially, you were raped, right? You're comfortable with me saying.

[A]

Absolutely. 17 years of therapy works.

[B]

Okay, so you were. You entered this academy. They handpicked you to become.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

They do not. What do they. They do not call a sex Spy. But essentially they handpick you to become an agent that would use your sex appeal and sometimes even your sex acts to gain information.

[A]

Basically. That's it. That's.

[B]

But using your sexual appeal, of course. And they would actually teach you how to have sex.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

So, yeah, tell me a little bit about the training of all that.

[A]

80% of our education were psychological techniques which are manipulation, influence, seduction, sex techniques and. And persuasion. All these techniques are very important for recruiting your targets. Or make your targets to do what you want and then terminate the target. Either kill, either, just whatever.

[B]

But, like, were you taught how to kill too? Was that one of your missions? You had to kill? Did you ever kill?

[A]

Well, I was sent to the war. I had to.

[B]

But you did it under the pretense of war. You weren't targeting an individual or did you.

[A]

No, of course, like in some missions we did, but that time, okay, so I don't want, like, people think like, I am a murderer, but I would. I would give my. And I felt like for 17 years I felt guilt about it, and sometimes it comes to me in the really bad dreams. But I would say this. Even if I now will see a pedophile, like a pedophile, there is no doubt I would like, basically it's just like automatically I will just go and probably will kill him.

[B]

But are you saying that then you only killed pedophiles or did you kill.

[A]

No, not particular. So bad guys who are bad guys, right? They are definitely bad guys. And we have evidences that this is a bad guy who kidnapped certain amount of children for the sex trafficking, for the organ transportation or whatever.

[B]

What about drug trafficking? Did you also turn target people involved.

[A]

In drug trafficking, drug trafficking? I trafficked, but I never killed any drug lords, suppliers or whatever, because I cannot say then they're not bad guys. They still are. But I feel that every human being who decides to take a drug, it's his responsibility. Okay. Yeah.

[B]

And you don't know the circumstances that led people to become drug traffickers. I mean, you know, I have a whole show on National Geographic called Trafficked, which is essentially, I investigate these black markets and I spend a lot of time with drug traffickers, human traffickers, I mean, the people that we consider the bad guys. Right. And my platform, and I think very much my goal as a journalist is to allow them to tell their story so that we can try to understand why they became who they are. Because I think that's much more important and a much better way for us to solve problems in the world. Is go to the root cause of those problems. Right. So I have a harder time seeing the world as black and white. And I imagine that if it was something that you were trained and perhaps even forced to do, that it's much easier for you to accept that by seeing the world as black and white, by seeing the people that you killed were people who were exploiting kids. So you would do it again. Right.

[A]

I mean, even if I'm. I'm civilian now, but I would totally do it because I just, just. I'm a mother, first of all. Like, it's just like I, I was just, like, trained like that. So the thing is that I was trained from the beginning for protecting civilians, especially women and children. And I still have it inside of me. It's like in my DNA.

[B]

And I, I mean, I'm going to ask you questions. I'm a journalist. That's my job. And you can say if you don't want.

[A]

And I'm here for this. Right.

[B]

If you don't want to answer, you don't need to. But what technique did you use to kill people? How did you kill them?

[A]

Gun. My favorite.

[B]

Guns. Of course.

[A]

Guns, Guns. It's like, quick, easy, fast. What can be better?

[B]

Because the Russian government uses. And the intelligence forces use poison a lot as well.

[A]

Yes. I would tell you this poison can be used only by those who know exactly what the dosage is. For example, let's go to this amazing example with Litvinenko, who was a former KGB agent who wrote an amazing book. Book. But his mistake was that he published the book with all the numbers and statistics and basically, like, the secrets of the state, everything, where he would expose Vladimir Putin. Those two agents who were sent to London to kill him, they did a huge mistake. And the mistake was that they didn't know what's the dosage of this poison. First of all, if they would know what the dosage is. Right. They would put enough in the tea of, like, Litvinenko. So he would die straight away. He didn't die straight away. He died after when he was giving interviews and became a hero in the. You know. Right.

[B]

So just for our listeners. So it's Litvinenko, Right. And he was a former spy, Russian spy who defected.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

And then he was killed by Russian secret intelligence agents. Secret intelligence agents while he was living in London.

[A]

Yes. And he actually got his citizenship in England. Right.

[B]

And he was poisoned.

[A]

He was poisoned in the hotel.

[B]

Do you know what they used to poison him?

[A]

I actually don't remember.

[B]

But actually, do you mind If I do a search real quick. So we use. Matt, can you search. Can you do a perplexing search?

[A]

I think it was Novichok or something.

[B]

Yeah, I'm interested in knowing because, yeah, I've heard so much about the poisoning by Russian agents. Matt is searching right now for us. We use AI platform called Perplexity. They actually sponsor the show and it's really good because you do searches and they do sort of. They give you the source of where it came from. So you know for sure that this is real.

[A]

Yeah, I just sent that over to you.

[B]

You did? Novichok's open. I'm just curious.

[A]

Yeah, I don't remember because they use, like, many ricins sometimes they use.

[B]

Okay, here it is. Alexander Litvinenko was poisoned with a highly radioactive substance known as polonium210 in London on November 1 in 2006. The poison was delivered to him in a cup of tea, as you were mentioning, at the Millennium Hotel's Pine Bar. It says that polonium210 emits alpha particles which are extremely harmful when ingested, but are difficult to detect using standard radiation detectors because alpha radiation does not penetrate far and is not picked up by Geiger counters. Wow. Which made the poison particularly tricky to identify.

[A]

Yeah, but. But they messed up, right? First of all, the whole world knew about this murder. Second, they didn't know how to use this poison. And I actually read some articles where the whole hotel was poisoned because they literally, like these two agents, they threw out the liquid of this poison into just like the sink, which made the whole hotel and the whole area around it radioactive. Radioactive.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

That's dangerous. Right, so here where we start, like, the question, this is from the beginning, only agents who really know how to work with poison and what's the dosage is they are actually allowed to do this sort of determination. I am not the expert.

[B]

So you were trained just to use weapons and to kill using guns?

[A]

I was a bait. I would go infiltrate, like, you know, make the target to be whatever, like, you know, relaxed or just trust you. Trust me? Yeah, of course. And then I would literally bring my team or like, allow my team to come and do the rest of the job and then clean it up.

[B]

And the rest of the job involved probably killing.

[A]

Of course. I literally did it for one target. We were in the, you know, sort of like sauna, whatever, like banya, Russian banner, and then I just opened the door, let, you know, my team inside. I left, and they did the whole thing and they just clean it up. And that's it?

[B]

And how did you feel after that?

[A]

It's a bad guy, you know, I know exactly what he did. I feel. I wouldn't say like, I used to feel really guilty. I used to feel like a murderer. You know, I felt like I have a blood in my hands and all this. But again, on another hand, I feel like a hero. Like, you know, how many people did I save by just like infiltrating this, you know, criminal and doing all the operation together with my team?

[B]

But there was a point where you didn't feel like a hero anymore, which is why you left. Right. Which I also want to get to.

[A]

I got manipulated really badly and I had to find the way out.

[B]

We'll get there as well. So tell me about. Yeah, some of the techniques. I'm very curious about some of the techniques. Yeah, I want to see if I can learn some of them too. But essentially, yeah. How do you get people to trust you? And what is the art of seduction?

[A]

Oh, my God, the art of seduction. It's actually really wide topic. I'll tell you this. There's so many techniques. The most important is, of course, to establish trust through building bond. So, for example, it's not just like having the same, like, you know, copying the body.

[B]

I knew you were gonna do that because.

[A]

Yes, it's not just that.

[B]

I've had my arms crossed while we were talking for a little bit, and I was wondering if you were analyzing the way I was sitting and what were your thoughts about me having my arms crossed? Cause I think that usually what signal does that send?

[A]

Okay, so when you cross your arms, it's, of course, it's a protective position. You're trying to either protect. Either you think like, oh, maybe I shouldn't say that. Or maybe you think like, what should I say next? Or maybe like, it was too much information or kind of you kind of, you protect yourself. You kind of like, you know, backing up yourself. Right.

[B]

Or you're just sitting in a position where you have a table in front of you and you don't know where to put your arms.

[A]

Or it's just like. Yeah, sometimes like, you know, but different when your gestures are open, you know, like Obama, former president would like, openly greeting people like, you know, these gestures, this is all obviously like, gives us sort of like compassion and opening and being friendly. Like, I'm here for you. I'm open. I'm honest in front of you. Right. Of course, when people, like, close their arms like this and they operate and like, they have gestures like this, again, this is sort of like they're closing up or they shy about themselves or they like. Right.

[B]

And you're doing gestures, you're doing just for our listeners as people who don't open up their arms so their shoulders and they're quietly sitting in one position.

[A]

Or like women would sit like this or they would. Where's my back? Or they. This is like the wrong thing. When women come to the bar or restaurant, they put their back like this.

[B]

Where they put their hand back like this.

[A]

And they're waiting for a man to come and approach them. So I tell my students, my female students, I said, like girls, like, don't do it. Like you come to the bar to meet someone. Like, you know, be relaxed, be open shoulders, like, you know, relax shoulders, play with your hair. You know, like, be like, you know, smiling, giggling, all that. Like, be relaxed. Right. But again, this is all techniques. Practice, practice makes it perfect.

[B]

I think treat. I think there's obviously, you know, I spend a lot of time in the criminal underworld interviewing criminals and getting them to trust me, which is not easy. It takes the majority of my time. And you know, obviously I've. There's some techniques that I use as well, but one of them is pretty natural to me, which is just, first of all, treat everybody as a human being and just generally be warm. And I think I am generally a warm person. So I like to hug people when I first meet them. I like to start asking questions about them, you know, who they are, do they have kids, anything that I can share about myself that connects with them, right?

[A]

Yes, exactly. When you connect your mutual interest or your mutual wherever. Like you have like, oh, I also have a son. You said, do you remember?

[B]

I did. I told you I had a son who's the same age as your son.

[A]

This is connection. Oh, I also did this. Oh, I also love football. I also like, I don't know, coffee or like tea or whatever. So you connect yourself. This is another also technique when you connect yourself. Right. But just quickly to, to, to mention. So I came across two criminals as either prostitute, right? Is either like this, like girl, you know, just like having fun girl. Because that was my cover.

[B]

So that you were usually a prostitute or pretending to be a prostitute.

[A]

I would always pretend that I'm prostitute, yes.

[B]

So I was in Ukraine about a year before the war started. I've never been to Russia and I've been to Ukraine twice already. But that time it was actually a story that I was doing about we were looking at the growth of white supremacy in The United States and how some Americans were. Were fleeing were sort of. This movement existed also in Ukraine. And we were after an American sort of white supremacist. And it was interesting to me. We were staying at a hotel and they had a lovely bar at this hotel. And I'd love to have my little nightcap before I go to bed with my team and we talk about the things that happened that day. And I was. And I know this is a thing because I've known people who've traveled to former Soviet countries and to Russia. But the amount of sex workers at that bar, Beautiful women.

[A]

Yes. Stunning.

[B]

And this was a bar also with a lot of diplomats and foreigners. And now I'm thinking. And at the time, I guess I didn't think, but it makes total sense. This is the best if you want to have somebody to get information.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

So you think that there's a good chance that a lot of these women.

[A]

Are at least some 80% probably there are actually collaborating with secret intelligence.

[B]

That is. That is fat. That makes so much more sense to me sometimes.

[A]

Also this is also kind of like just information for audience to understand how does it work? Sometimes the secret intelligence wouldn't particular hire, you know, someone. They would actually get, let's say a prostitute who is well connected, who has certain clients who have, let's say, targets, reception ambassadors, whatever. And they would literally give her an order or like give her a task. She cannot say no. For example, if you won't do that, you know, you'll go to jail. If you won't do it, something happened with your kids or like with your family members, so you can't say no. And again, like your patriot, you know, work for your country. So anyways, your client, you know, while you will have a fun, blah, blah, blah, get this information or maybe check his suitcase or like finds out this one, check his phone or whatever. So sometimes these girls, they're sort of like not particular agents, but they collaborate with secret intelligence. And that's what I said. And I will not mention names because they are very famous female celebrities in the world. But sometimes they also would operate through these celebrities. So celebrity, like American celebrities parties. No, Russians. Okay, so for example, she's already established celebrity. She's, you know, has her, you know, fan base, blah, blah, blah. They would also, the secret intelligence would say, okay, you know this and this person, or you're connected with this person. We need this information. Why don't you get this information for us and you'll continue your amazing, beautiful celebrity career.

[B]

And it's much. You don't even need to train them. They're already in the position that they are.

[A]

Exactly. They already have that. They already have this fan base. They already have these connections. I don't know. Have you ever heard. But this is a fascinating story. I always like think that this is explanation of a proper sex espionage honey trap to understand what is it. So Einstein going back to that time when Einstein was helping and, and had a friendship with Oppenheimer.

[B]

This is Einstein, the German American scientist. Scientist, sorry, Remarkable.

[A]

The genius. Genius. But that time there was a female young lady who sort of fell in love with Einstein and obviously he fell in love. He called her her muse, his museum. So they started to live together. They basically became a couple. This Russian beauty, young beauty, would obviously escort her sort of like husband and Stein to a house for evenings, gatherings, whatever, to Oppenheimer house where of course they were discussing how they create and build the nuclear weapons. Which happened. What happened? Stalin basically was getting all this information from this female Russian. She was an agent of course. And so she was passing all this information about nuclear weapon which was actually created by the Oppenheimer to Russian to Soviet Union government and they actually, there's actually they build it in two years, which actually takes four years years. The Russia, the Soviet Union government because.

[B]

They based on information they got from.

[A]

The site, they stole it. This is what is sexpanash. Long term relationship in order to get information, blah blah. Your target would never even know that he is through his connections or conversations or whatever would give this important information to, you know, government. Right.

[B]

And it's still being used. And it's used a lot right now.

[A]

Absolutely. That's what's happening in Silicon Valley before we get there.

[B]

So you're in the academy and you start learning and at this point you didn't. When did you figure out that you were going to be hand selected and why do you think you were hand selected to do this sort of sex pionage?

[A]

I think why I was being selected because I was very naive and I was very young. I was 18. Besides, they have a precise parameters. Future female agents have to be young. Obviously even the height should be not less than 5, 6 IQ.

[B]

How, how tall are you?

[A]

I'm 169, which is 5, 6, 57 I guess like something like this, I don't know really like American measurement. But like. Yes.

[B]

And you're beautiful for people who can't see. Thank you.

[A]

But beauty really again like there were some girls who who naturally were not beautiful, but they Made them to be beautiful, lose some weight because of, like physical trainings. They teach you how to do makeup, they teach you how to keep the posture. They teach you how to walk, mesmerizing walk. Like, you know, this seductress that every man would turn, like, you know, and look at her, at you.

[B]

And they taught you how to do all that?

[A]

Of course. But it's. So I'm trying to explain your audience, and especially women. It's not about the appearance, like your physical appearance, which you were born. It's about your charisma.

[B]

It's how you present yourself exactly.

[A]

Like how confident you are. There's so many little things which, like actually, like I teach women now, like I share this up because I want women to feel confident. That's all I want. But it's not about just physical appearance. So it's how you present yourself. Also how you can keep up with conversation. Right? You, you have to be like, you know, smart enough, but also you need to back up your intelligence because you want the man think that he is smart. And this is the most important.

[B]

Laugh at their jokes.

[A]

Exactly. You need to stroke his ego to make him feel good, to make him feel like, powerful next to you. Right? That's what you do. And this is part of the art. Seduction. The art of seduction. You as an agent need to make him to feel like he has a desire to give you something. Not just presence or wherever, but also information. Not just trust, but he wants to share what's happening in his job or in his life because it's his desire to share his life with you. How do you do it? It's also art of seduction. And there are lots of little things. And it's not just in the beginning when you just like, you know, adapting yourself to your target, but it's also how you lead the whole relationships into this, you know, into this point where your target become completely like obsessed and attached and he cannot even imagine his life without you. Of course, sex is the one of the biggest rewards and it's very powerful thing. And of course, there are like millions of different sex techniques and special oral techniques and. Right.

[B]

They teach you all that, right? Or they taught you all this. They taught you how to do it. Give the best blow job and what else?

[A]

Yes. And basically, is it okay to talk.

[B]

About this if you don't feel comfortable?

[A]

No, no, no, it's okay. They mainly taught us how to spot every man's, let's say, fetishes. You know, every human being is different and unique. We all have unique bodies. We all have unique origin sensitive spots in our bodies. How to find out how to do like. And everything starts from a perfect massage, you know, and how to do massage. Not like, just like with the. Okay, just massage. Like Thai massage with happy ending. No, but how to find all these erosion zones and how to make them more sensitive and how to lead there with the wayna coming to the. The private part of the man to make it more aroused, even without him understanding. Maybe with like. No, I don't want to kind of like get there. It's too. But when, you know, a spy, an experienced spy would know how to, you know, point or like, touch these spots, you know, he would be like, oh, you know, she's. She's quite sexy. La la la, la. So that's what I'm saying. It's not about your, you know, physical appearance.

[B]

So being beautiful is not the most important.

[A]

Of course it's not enough. Being beautiful is not enough at all. How many beautiful women we know, and if they're not confident or whatever, like, they're single, right? How many do we know? There's so many. And how many do we know that, oh, she's maybe overweight, she's maybe not that, like, pretty. Like, her face is not like, blah, blah, blah. She's not perfect, but she's charismatic. Right.

[B]

So when they're recruiting, they're looking more for the charismatic, confident person and less about the physical aspect.

[A]

Not particularly, because they taught us. I was not confident. I was not charismatic at all. I know that I'm confident right now.

[B]

So what do you think they saw in you? I mean, apart from the fact that you're beautiful?

[A]

Again, thank you. Is it all to create? They were looking for stones, right? Rose stones. But they know how to cross.

[B]

Is it tied to the idea of being. Wanting to please? Were you like a young person who was wanting to please and wanted to be liked, especially because of your background?

[A]

Absolutely. 100%, yes. This is also, I would say, you know what, like the Soviet Union, and I see it through the history, why it was so big and powerful, why actually they won the second war. And I can tell that because, like, there were like over 20 million Russian soldiers that like killed, which is three times more than Germans, is because there is a very strong patriotic ideology, Rodina, which is motherland, and the Russian soil, like that soil which gave you birth, which raised you. And I don't know, it's a Russian DNA, Soviet Union DNA, where you're so attached to the. This patriotic ideology and that's exactly what Vladimir Putin doing right now. Because this Ukrainian war is a secret war.

[B]

And it's about patriotism. It's about defending the, defending our homeland.

[A]

Our families, our children. Like, you know, you have to go for a war to defend your mother and your child. Who wouldn't do that? You know, you sacrifice yourself for this like, ideology.

[B]

And you had that because you came from a family of patriots who had military experience, backgrounds. And so you, they believed that you.

[A]

Would be the perfect tool for them.

[B]

And at what point did. Just getting a little bit into the sort of darker side of it, if you don't mind.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

When did it start getting very dark for you inside? Like, when did you start getting raped?

[A]

So, okay, so I came to the department, right? My first apartment, literally in two weeks. Weeks I was raped. And it was a total setup, like, such a setup that my father, after receiving a call about alarm in the cities, he literally said to me, oh, you have to go to your department. And it was 8pm because your colleague just called me. That time we didn't have smartphones, of course, me, I was a teenager. And the time we didn't really have that. It was the beginning of the beginning, beginning of 2000 thousands. So it was home phone. And then my father sends me to the department. I, I came to the department and there were like a few agents, my commanders, who literally, like, you know, took advantage of me being, first of all, virgin being.

[B]

Was it more than one man who did it?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

At the same time?

[A]

No, the first time it was one man. And then after, it was like basically the whole, the whole department eventually. So, I mean, what can you. I mean, I didn't know anything about sex. I didn't know anything about like, relationship with men. I didn't know anything. I was, I was nerdish shy girl who would read Tolstoy and Astea of ski in the evenings before going to bed and dreaming about the, you know, fairy tale, whatever. And then this just happened in my life and I didn't even know how to accept it. But then I realized and they told me this is part of the training they, they needed. And it's. That's what they do. They disassociate your body from your emotions. Where as a future female agents of sex banana, you would never have any attachments to your target. Because women, according to psychology and of course, after first sex, they have attachment with men, right?

[B]

So sex is not a place of love. It's actually a place of fear, I guess. And in this case, it's a place, it's part of a mission.

[A]

Part of the mission. But it's almost like instinct. You want to go to the toilet. Same, same with sex. Basically it becomes like that, that, wow, that's so interesting.

[B]

Has that, does that affect my life?

[A]

Very much so. I, I can even tell right now like I am struggling having trust worthy relationships with men. I, I just, I, I, I don't think I ever been in love, to be honest. And for me, sex is completely different from like having trust. So I can have sex and I have orgasms and I, I'm always having organs with any man because I know how to please myself. But I never. You're very, very lucky.

[B]

You always have orgasms.

[A]

You know, I studied in Kinsey Institute. They told us that 80% of females, they don't experience orgasms with their partners, which is awful.

[B]

That is awful.

[A]

And I know how to actually fix it. It's all about female body. Females need to learn the bodies. That's the whole thing. I would say masturbation is a new meditation. Learn your body ladies, because your orgasm is your response. Responsibility. You know, no man know about your body. No man. You need to understand how does it work? And everybody is unique. So you need to understand what do I like? And then tell to your partner, I like this. This.

[B]

Yeah. Female empowerment too, right?

[A]

Yes, exactly. That's what I teach women. Exactly. So but in my situation, yes, I don't experience any attachment or I like.

[B]

Sex doesn't represent love for you and is that it?

[A]

Unfortunately not. Maybe one day it will, but I'm working on it.

[B]

I mean it doesn't shock me because of what you said happened to you. That is I think a very common reaction at the time. When you were first raped, did you think about telling your father?

[A]

So when I was raped they told me, don't you dare tell to your dad because first of all, you know what he will do? He eventually it would be a fight or somebody would be get killed eventually or whatever. And you don't want to have this kind of like blame and this embarrassment on your family because your father has such a, you know, reputation in the city. So you don't want that. So you'd rather like, you know, close your mouth and don't say anyone.

[B]

And then. So you were raped repeatedly in this academy and then you were moved to a new place, right? Where the.

[A]

So I was raped first in the department and then I moved to the academy, Right.

[B]

You were handpicked to get moved to the academy, right?

[A]

No, no, no. So basically all students, future agents, wherever they come, they come to the academy, they study, blah, blah, blah, and then just a few of them are picked, handpicked. Okay, so. So from, for example, our course the first year, right? The first course, there were about 350 students and only five females, because I studied with them, were picked for this program. They would never call it sexpienage, honey trap program. No, they would never call us like a spy or like sex spy. They would call us. That's a special program for your department. You have to study certain, certain techniques, certain subjects in order to go to your department and, you know, continue with your work. That's it. You're not allowed to share this information with anyone, including your family members. Everything you learn is, you know, is basically in confidential. And again, you, your body belongs to the state, belongs to the government. You do the right thing, which is you protecting civilians and you're helping your country and you have to be proud of that. And you have a huge honor because you were selected for this particular program.

[B]

And at this point, you believed all of this.

[A]

Of course. I was like, I felt like, oh my God, I'm a privilege. You know, all these losers are there? No, of course not. But I felt like, okay, you know, like I, I'm studying something interesting and then I find out like, oh, wow, these techniques are so cool because, you know, we study how to do makeup, we study how to be seductive, we study how to communicate with men. I haven't, you know, done all that. Like, I haven't learned all that. Where actually would you find this information? Now you sort of have Internet, but still, if you go and check Internet about the spy techniques, such as I asked ChatGPT, there is nothing like that. What we've studied.

[B]

We should ask Perplexity. I think they're better. Can we ask Perplexity? Matt, where should I go if I want to. I mentioned. I wonder if they're going to mention your name. Where should I go if I wanted to learn about sex?

[A]

Espanage, Sexpanage.

[B]

Oh, wow. There's a lot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To learn about sexpionage, the use of sexual allure in espionage, and the art of seduction. Some of the best resources include museums themed events, academic courses and specialized literature. Spy museums and public events. Okay, so when Matt searched for the best people to search for, to look for when studying this, your name actually came up. A former Russian sex spy who now educates the public about manipulation and seduction tactics. But I guess before you, you'd have to go to a museum Occasionally short courses, lectures on sex spionage, which I'm sure there aren't a lot of courses such as espionage institutions today.

[A]

Here you go. Yeah, I'm the first one. Yeah, yeah. No, but seriously, like. Okay, so I would tell. No, this I know how I was before. Nerdy, shy, not confident, not confident at all. I was in my victim mentality. Okay, the victim mentality where you feel always guilty or you have to do something for someone. You always prioritize everybody apart from yourself. That's how I was before enrolling into this special program when I learned how to raise your self esteem, self love and self confidence. And self love is what I'm talking about. It's becoming the best version of yourself. Because if you're not confident enough, how you possibly can seduce anyone. Right, Right.

[B]

So if you don't love yourself, how can you get people to love you?

[A]

Exactly. So one of the technique, for example, literally every morning we had to. I had to look to the mirror and tell myself how amazing I am. I have this like still even now, this ritual that they're like certain words. And when you look into the mirror, you smile at least three minutes to your reflection. Because your brain thinks that if the body, like if the face is smiling, so it means that it's something positive. So brain, brain creates endorphin hormones which obviously gives you positive mood. And at the same time you sell do you tell yourself how amazing you are? And at the same time it's auditory. Auditory anchor you put into your brain. At the same time. I use this finger. This is my anchor of. On the body of my confidence. Yeah. If I feel like a little bit like anxiety or something, I pick that.

[B]

You hold on to your pinky.

[A]

This is my anchor. But you can put and you can place anchor in any part of your bodies and whatever. Whenever you feel like you know something is going wrong or something, or you feel like anxiety, you basically remind yourself that I'm confident, everything is good, I'm here. You ground yourself. And also again, if you feel anxiety or something or you're in a very stressful situation. Three, three, three, three things to see. So I spot like painting table, chair. Three things you hear. I hear like your voice. I hear my voice. I hear the camera working. And three things to fill so the surface of the table. Like the fabric on my coat or like you know, the glass. So 3:33. It's literally grounds you, you and it's kind of like helps you to have an inner support.

[B]

It's a form of meditation.

[A]

Almost right for sort of. But this is like really what secret intelligence agencies. There are like many techniques like techniques like that, but this is one of the most popular actually. Psychologists also use the same techniques for the clients, especially when they in this, like, you know, stressful anxiety, mood or whatever. But they are. We learned all these techniques which actually makes you to believe and program your brain that you are the best in like whatever you do. And with this confidence, with this like, you know, position, you carry yourself into the mission because you, you know, like Sanzi said, you need to win the war, the fight, mentally, mentally before an actual fight. It's exactly like this. And for athletes it works exactly like this visually, like a manifestation. They call it like modern thing. You need to leave this future mission and win inside in your brain before you actually going and doing that. Because you have to be confident that you can do it. If you will have any doubts, you'll fail.

[B]

Yeah, I think optimism is very sort of. I'm a big optimist. I always believe in things, that things are going to turn out okay and that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And especially working in a world where it's almost like my job is almost impossible, which is trying to get people who work in criminal, in the criminal underworld to talk to me. And so often, you know, I think it's normal to doubt. I mean, there's no way this person I'm going to be able to enter again access to this underworld. But I think that one reason why I can do it is because I've always been so positive and I always believe this is going to happen, this is going to happen. I think that actually manifests itself somehow.

[A]

Yeah. Because of your aura and your energy. So we exchange the energy. Right. Like if your energy is like optimistic and positive, like I feel it too. So in your aura we kind of like, we feel, we feel that like I feel like relaxed and come and like open, you know, open with you. But if you would have like a, you know, bad mood or something, I would spot it, I would read it, I would scan it. So I would also close up myself.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

So, you know, we all connected. So you're.

[B]

Is that something also they train you on reading people?

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah. This is number one, right? Yes.

[B]

Well, so, okay, so you're, you're there, you're learning all of this. There's one lesson in particular, not to get to granular, but to get to granular again, which is when you got. Which I listened to you talking about this, which is one day you get to the academy and you have all these tables and they all have three objects on top of the table, right?

[A]

You mean like sexual objects? Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Can you tell us what they were?

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. So basically, how does it work? The perfect spy blow job.

[B]

Right?

[A]

There are many different things you can do and that, that's the most important part of man's body. And if you know how to please it, if you know how to make it, you know, to have ejaculation, that's one of the most important skill any woman can have. And the. There are like many, many techniques, but one of the most important is. I'm sorry to be very open, but I don't know how to call it any other way. So Deep throat technique is one of the most desirable thing any man can and want to have. And there's certain.

[B]

And they teach you how to do that.

[A]

They teach you how to do it. But there's certain things you have to know before actually doing it, otherwise it will be painful for men. And also it can be painful for your throat or you can actually have a gargle effect or you can actually even throw up. And that's why we had this sort of deal, this and practice on that.

[B]

So. So the table had a dildo.

[A]

Yes, Condoms.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Condoms and lubricant. Right. So basically what like you need to do in order to have this, like in order to perform the deep throat is basically to learn how to place the part onto your top of the mouse when you put it.

[B]

You're actually going to teach us here?

[A]

Okay, I'm just like, no, go for it. No, I just like to. Just to explain because like this is also because like now like every woman, like, okay, husband, get ready, I'll do it for you. I just want to say like, it's, it's. There are techniques to learn before doing that because otherwise your husband would hate it and would blame you that you're doing something. No, but seriously, like it, it can cause like even trauma. So when you do it, try it maybe at least on cucumber, banana or like even like, just like a, you know, plastic dildo. Because like before performing on, on human body, because it can be really painful. So it has to go on top of your mouth. And at the same time you do like breathe in and then you swallow it only with this position. And also your heart has to be. It has to be like 90 degrees angle. Otherwise if you do like any other angle, it will be painful for you then and also like the best position. So. So I mean, sometimes like, you know, in Porn, like, women are laying on the bed and then the man on top of her, like, you know, basically doing this kind of like oral sex. But no, and no, because, like, you can also hurt yourself, like, really badly because of these positions. And, like, you have a. You may have problem with throat. So it's better to do, like, just a normal position where you sit and he stands. For example. This is like 90 degrees.

[B]

Wow. This is why I love this podcast, is because I never thought I'd be having these conversations. Patience for them.

[A]

I mean, right? Like, you, like, press calls me a former sex spy. So that's what I. That's what I teach, right? No, not just that, but again, if you.

[B]

This is the type of thing that you were taught.

[A]

Yes, but if you. If you know how to please your man, I mean, you're so confident, right? You have these skills, like. Oh. Like, you know, this. You know, techniques. You would go to any date and be so confident that any man would. Would literally instantly feel your vibe. Because you're confident, you're positive, you outgoing, you like, you know, you're the best.

[B]

So your first operation, did you feel like that? Did you feel confident?

[A]

How did it go, the first operation? Oh, thank God. I didn't have sex because I actually manipulated the target with his family, and he had a newborn baby. So if you want to kind of like, again, manipulate your target or like, anyone and kind of like be close to the target. So what I did, I actually were speaking about his newborn baby where he wouldn't get hard, basically, because we're talking about his kid, you know, and in.

[B]

This situation, you were pretending to be a prostitute, Right. You met at the bar. Your mission was that you had to give him an envelope or something.

[A]

Yes. So imagine it was like, basically what you described in Ukraine, beautiful hotel. So they're like, you know, all these workers, like sex workers. So I pretend to be one of the worker because I had to pass the envelope, and literally I had to be in his room.

[B]

And so your mission was to give him or to place an envelope inside his briefcase.

[A]

Yes, yes. Got it.

[B]

And so you had to figure out a way to get to his bedroom, and then once you got to his bedroom, you were smart and you didn't actually have to have sex with him.

[A]

Yeah, because I was talking constantly about his newborn baby. And of course, he couldn't get her hard because of these family conversations. But, you know, sometimes men, what they just need. Sometimes they just need someone to listen to them. And I gave them this sort of.

[B]

Like, space yeah, that is so true. I once did a story about sex trafficking and we spoke to a few of the johns, the people that get prostitutes. And, and one of the things that surprised me was hearing how they talked about, about how very, very often they actually hire sex workers, but then they don't actually have sex with them. They just want to have somebody to hold them, to talk to them, to like, you know, caress them and have physical contact without the actual sex, which is so important and sometimes it's missing in marriages or in your. In the person's life.

[A]

Yeah, that, that's what we want like, as a human beings. And I think like, this is especially for men because men have to be strong. They have to like, you know, pretend like I'm all, all this, like, get it, like, you know, it's okay. Like I don't need all this romantic, you know, kisses and caressing and whatever. But they really do. They're still little boys, like mommy's voice. And they need like this, like, you know, mommy, like, you know, this nurturing energy of female to tell them everything is good. I believe in you. You can do it. Let me hug you. Yeah, of course. Yeah.

[B]

That's interesting. So in the first operation that you had to have something, sex, what was.

[A]

That like for you after this one with, with this guy? So. Well, I supposed to have sex with him. I didn't because I, I just, I don't know, I was gross out or whatever. I didn't know. I was like, I. I'm not ready yet. Oh. And then my first mission where I had sex, it was that guy from the Russian Bunya. The Russian this, the. The sauna with this like. But he was kind of cool, I would say. He was young. He was young, young, very sexy criminal. You know, the mission. Well, unfortunately then he died. So the mission was me for me to actually get to his body because he always had security and a lot of people around him. And basically my team would finish him and I just had to get closer to him as much as I could.

[B]

And then you would communicate with your team to come in when he was ready.

[A]

Yeah, they were following us and waiting for us. So I basically was in the club pretending that I'm like not like particular prostitute, but one of the like go girls, you know, like easy peasy and like, oh, let's have fun, let's have drugs, blah, blah, blah, let's have sex, you know, this sort of women. And I picked him up from the club, yet he was with the enormous amount of beautiful girls and all that and I had to do it. So I picked him up, we went to the sauna, like, which is like Russian saunas. They have rooms and they have saunas, and they have massage and. And like, everything. So I was doing massage on him, blah, blah. Perform the intercourse. And when he was like, in his very bliss moment or whatever, I let my team in and they basically finished the whole operation.

[B]

What kind of criminal was he?

[A]

Okay, so there are a few things he did bad. So I would say he was very young, sexy criminal, but he was bad. So he was the one who actually supplied drugs. Drugs and guns in an enormous amount. But he was the lead towards my main mission, which was Vladimir. He was working with them.

[B]

So Vladimir explained that. So Vladimir was the leader of a gang that was bringing in drugs from Afghanistan to Russia.

[A]

Correct. And then from Russia to Europe. Yeah, it was like, enormous amount. Yeah.

[B]

And they wanted you to sort of infiltrate and get close to Vladimir. But this is where I understand how it is. So I understand the benefits of using sex spies because. Particularly female sex spies, because men are just very weak. And there are millions of stories out there of men's lives being destroyed because they think with another body part instead of their minds. So I understand that. But in this case, this is an actual known criminal. A trafficker, a drug trafficker. Why not just go after him through law enforcement? Why use sex spies?

[A]

They could just kill him, no problem. Right? Just assassination and whatever. But they didn't want to. Why? Because apparently my second commander, with whom I had really bad, you know, relationships, because I honestly, I just hated him so much because.

[B]

Is this the guy who also forced you to have sex with him?

[A]

He. He was the second. The second my commander with that one. I had to have sex and relationship.

[B]

He was also having a relationship with a major.

[A]

Yes, yes, yes. So that one, I had to, because I didn't have any other options. And besides, like, I was not strong enough to actually do something, so I was continuing that relationship. First of all, he was a bad commander. Second, he was dealing.

[B]

You mean the new one?

[A]

Yes, the new one. Second, like, I found out that he was not like me. Like, the whole department knew he was actually working with criminals, where he would cover them and. And taking the bribe.

[B]

So this was a new person that was sort of in charge. That was your boss. Right, right. So you found out that he was corrupt.

[A]

So basically, he was the one who wanted to put, instead of Vladimir, his person who would continue bringing. Because Vladimir wanted to legalize himself. He wanted to become businessman. Because as you know, after perestroika, after like this 1991 fall, USSA fall, there were time where, where criminals basically legally bought for $5 or for $1 enormous amounts of government soil and factories and whatever.

[B]

So they were trying to restart the economy and grow.

[A]

They basically stole from the government. It calls prove. They call it privatization. Privatization. But like, come on, like they bought us for $1 for $5$. Which actually the worst is like 50 million or like whatever, like very expensive like stuff. Right. So these criminals, then whoever could make it up with Vladimir Putin became oligarchs. Right, Right.

[B]

Vladimir Putin's friends became oligarchs. So they became very rich owners of this privatized.

[A]

Privatized sort of of industries. Right. So my criminal lord, my target, he wanted to become that oligarch eventually. He wanted to kind of legitimize his businesses. That's why he wanted to get away from the drugs, right. Because he had money enough right. From this operation. And then he wanted to move into being a businessman because he understood that otherwise he would be killed eventually. Like, like it's really dangerous road where he's going. My commander on another side didn't want to because he was receiving a lot of money from these operations from like covering this whole like, you know, drug dealing operation. So my commander sends me as a bait knowing that anyway this mission would be messed up eventually where he wouldn't predict that Vladimir would really fall in love and establish a really strong bond with me. Me, Vladimir were protecting me. My commander on another side were pushing his protege, which was also Vladimir's former friend that time, like his very best friend, but then became like former friend. And this guy wanted to, to become like the authoritative, like the, the main leader of the gang. Okay. My commander gave up my name to criminals telling that I'm the mole criminals.

[B]

So your mission was to get close to Vladimir, who was running this drug trafficking operation. And while doing this and starting to sh. And you got very close to Vladimir. Right.

[A]

We started to basically live 24 7.

[B]

Wow. So you were living with him. Had you fallen in love with him?

[A]

I guess not.

[B]

But he had fallen in love with you?

[A]

Yes, absolutely.

[B]

And he was under. He had no idea obviously that you were an agent and you were sharing the information with your boss.

[A]

Yes, to this boss, another boss of my department, where my department goes and literally confiscate drugs, arrest criminals, blah, blah, blah.

[B]

And then the commander, your direct boss, who is not happy, he doesn't want to end the drug trafficking ring because he can make a Lot of money from it. Or he is making money from it. He goes and shares information about you until the gang, she is the mole. She's how we're getting information.

[A]

Because the gang was really upset and angry because they were losing a lot of money and drugs during Vladimir's leadership. So Vladimir is bad. We need to rid of him. But how? He's the leader. They don't like, you know, just, okay, you are fired. We hire another one. No, it has to be killed. But there should be a reason why they need to kill their leader who actually built the whole gang. Right?

[B]

Right.

[A]

So my commander, the bad guy, makes all this, like, strategy, all this set up in order for criminals eventually to kill Vladimir and having a reason why they want to kill him. And one of the reason was me.

[B]

As a mole?

[A]

Yeah, as a mole. Because of me. They lost money and drugs because of me.

[B]

And so they ended up killing him.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Who did his gang end up killing him?

[A]

His own brothers, friends with whom he ate, slept and like raised them and everything. Yes.

[B]

And how did. How did you react to that?

[A]

I felt like I lost the only one support I had that time because I was completely devastated and disappointed about the whole system because I realized the whole. This strategy. We just. I just told you. And I realized how corrupted is it? And I realized that I've been used, manipulated all this time, and I just lost any desire or any sort of like, romanticism about my profession. You know, at that time, I just understood that I was manipulated by the ideology of saving kids and saving women and, you know, bringing justice. I understood that it was all manipulation alongside. And the most important for even, you know, my commanders at that time was money, Money and power. And they didn't even look at us, agent, as human beings. They use it as tools, like, you know. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, after everything you went through, the rapes, the sacrifices, the trauma, and you're still sort of convincing yourself that you're doing this for the good of your country and to go after criminals and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you realize just how corrupt the system was on the inside and that people were just wanting to make money on the backs of the trauma of people like you.

[A]

Yeah, but I mean. Yes, but it's still, I think, like, you know, unfortunately, it's one of the human sins. Right. Desire for money and power.

[B]

And is that when you then decided you wanted to leave?

[A]

I decided that I want my freedom. I was not particular about, like wanting to leave or whatever, but I definitely didn't want to work at the same department I did. I definitely didn't want to have the same life which I had. I wanted like, different circumstances, different situations, but I wanted my freedom. I wanted like to be free out of that darkness which I saw.

[B]

And how difficult or easy was it to leave?

[A]

They don't allow any assets to leave, leave. So I would say like this. For many years, I was still in the sort of like, chop, but America. God bless America. Honestly, I. I lived in so many countries, it's like with my son, it was insane.

[B]

And like, did you have to flee Russia? Is that how it worked?

[A]

I. So I had to flee Russia not because of the secret intelligence. I had to flee Russia because of the criminal criminals, because, like, they were targeting me still.

[B]

All right, the same criminals that killed Vladimir?

[A]

Yeah, because like, they were devastated. I mean, like, okay, they killed one person, but actually they wanted to kill me. So in the fact that Vladimir saved me and helped me to escape, they still were like trying to target me.

[B]

And then, oh, I didn't know Vladimir had helped you escape at the time. Where to initially?

[A]

That's the guy who. The friend of his childhood childhood, the one who trust who was not criminal. He put me into the car in the night after we spoke with him. And this sort of like driver friend drove me away to another city where he gave me sort of like a safe house where I stayed for a few months. And I didn't even go anywhere apart from just pharmacy and grocery store.

[B]

What year was this, by the way?

[A]

It was 2006. Okay, so that's it. And I was just even scared to even go anywhere. And then eventually Vladimir was the one who gave me telephone numbers of people, his friends in Turkey and then in Europe, in Greece, in Switzerland. And I moved to Turkey. Like, I didn't move to Turkey. I went to Turkey first, and then from Turkey to Greece and then Switzerland. So that's how I started my way to live abroad.

[B]

And you've been here in the US for only five years?

[A]

Yeah, because I couldn't go anywhere else. I couldn't go back to Russia. So I was like, let me go. Unless I would go to. I could go to Turkey, for example. There was like non visa entrance. So I was like, okay, let me go to United States and see, like, what can I do? I come to United States, get a really good immigration lawyer, tell him the whole situation with me. He goes, I would suggest you to go public in United States and reveal your identity and your past. And literally same time Covid's happening. So it gave me some time not to be like. Like, you know, nobody would, like, literally kick me out from the country because it's covered, everything is, you know, close, and blah, blah. And then Ukraine war started. So that was my first move where I actually gave my interview about Ukrainian war and about my identity, my past identity. Then, because I revealed that and it went public and viral. I even did know it would become so viral eventually. My migration lawyer actually said that you kind of, like, kill two birds in one shot because, number one, you sort of, like, give yourself insurance protection under United States government. Second, that was my way out to completely cut off any connections with the Russian government because I literally revealed myself and my identity.

[B]

I understand that, but it could also make you the perfect spy right now. Right?

[A]

You could pretend I don't want to be doing this anymore.

[B]

No, but you know what I mean. A former spy who defected can also make for the perfect spy.

[A]

Yes, that would be a good thing, a good plot for a movie. Some people actually. It's so funny. Like, some people, like, write comments in Instagram or whatever they say, like, oh, this is a perfect cover. This is a perfect cover. You can be still a spy. Like, oh, my God.

[B]

Right? Yeah. I know that's probably not what you want to do at all. And you've moved past all the.

[A]

I'm too old for that. Yeah.

[B]

Can we go real quick about, like, all the. While researching you, and I've spent the last few days looking into your story. There's a lot of people, like I said, who really do not believe that you are the real thing, that your story is real. I mean, to the point where I actually had doubts whether I should even have you on. Because this.

[A]

Oh, it's working.

[B]

This is a platform for me where I have honest conversations with people. And I thought, you know, I'm going to speak. I appreciate and thank you for coming and accepting this invitation, but I also didn't want to spend all this time with you talking about a story that I myself had doubts. Yes. And I think for me, apart from the comments, and I'd like to, if you don't mind, address some of them.

[A]

With you and you can.

[B]

First of all, I thought a lot of the stories I read were very superficial, so I myself started having some doubts. I was like, you didn't really. I hadn't listened to the podcast at this point, and I thought, you haven't really gotten into a lot of details. And I understand. Obviously, there's protection about your life and there's stuff that you. Information that you just can't share. But then I came across the Vice story, which I'm sure you've seen, of course.

[A]

I mean, that was a story of the stories. Right.

[B]

So the Vice story for people who haven't seen it, which I do the.

[A]

Advertisement, because they make money on this story, you know? Right.

[B]

But it's my due diligence, due diligence as a journalist to go and look into that. And she. It's a journalist, female journalist. She came here, she spent time with you, you guys became close. She liked you very much, and she says that she likes you throughout, but that she has a lot of doubts about who you are. And she confronts you with certain things. Like the photo, for example. You showed her a photo of you supposedly when you were in the military. She did a reverse search of the photo and realized that it wasn't a photo taken. It's not you. It was taken 10 years after you said you left Russia. So what do you say to that?

[A]

Very, very honest. And I actually have behind the scene videos. When my manager actually was taking it, they literally. And I, I don't know why it was like that, but like, I felt like this was my first big interview, right. It was my actually first video when I actually revealed my identity. They literally gave me this video, this photo, and said, like, can you please say that? Say it.

[B]

Vice gave you that photo?

[A]

Literally like that. And then they, they literally. I. I provided them photos which probably you saw in Internet, like the real photos, me wearing the uniform, taken the oath. They like call it the boots where you're wearing. Yeah, they cut off completely that part. So everything I was sharing the, the reality and everything, what I was selling, like the whole truth, the whole interview, they cut it out. They particular, I would say, like right now, they probably like set me up. They intentionally set up all these things.

[B]

So you, you were saying that they gave you that photo and made you say that that was you.

[A]

So they.

[B]

I have a hard time believing that I have to tell you because I work with a lot of Vice people in the past, and as a journalist myself, I really have a hard time that they would. What would be their intention?

[A]

Okay. So as much as I understood. So this producer. I will not tell the name, or should I? I don't know, even like, I don't.

[B]

Want the woman, the female, the correspondent.

[A]

She's the host.

[B]

The host. Okay. The producer behind the producer behind.

[A]

Behind it. Right.

[B]

You can say the name.

[A]

Well, I can say if you want to.

[B]

You don't?

[A]

I don't want to do. Okay. Like, yeah, why not? So Adrian, I actually forgot his surname. Adrian. He contacts me after like, I think like New York Post or something. All the sun. We want to film. Like we follow you on Instagram. You do amazing things, you support women, you've been a secret agent, you want to film like all these things. How you actually got from A, A point A to point B. We will be in LA just like in a few weeks. Why don't we do interview with you? Video interview. I'm like, okay, what do you have? What's going on in your life right now? That time I was hosting a fashion event with one of my friend who actually does the military sort of like collection. And it was LA Fashion Week. So it was very kind of like normal. So I'm like, okay, I'm having this event, perfect, we want to film it, blah, blah. They're like, can we film in your house? I'm like, you cannot film in my house. Because my son, at the age, he is in the house. Okay, can you rent a place where we can film or can you have any friends house where we can film? I said, look, well, I don't have any friends with houses. No, but we need particular house. And like I have all these Messages, all this WhatsApp, which I can show right now and prove it.

[B]

So what happened in the story, which is the journalist goes into the house. She says that the house was that you had pretended this was your house.

[A]

She asked me, can you please say that you live here? Because we create this story like we want to empower women. We want to show like how.

[B]

Right? And it was a huge multi million dollar mansion.

[A]

It wasn't, it was just like a rent house, which I actually sent them some rental things and they said like, which one would you like me to rent? This one. This one? This one. Because like I can rent like you know, on hourly basis and I have this WhatsApp messages here in my phone right now. I can show it to you, you.

[B]

Can prove and maybe I'll see them after. You can show how they perfectly well knew that this was a rental house and not your home.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. So we have this conversation then I'm like, okay. They arrive too late. I'm like, okay, so this is the plan. I rent the house. Great. Then I have this event. Great. You'll come and film there. Who will be at the event? I say like, well, at the event will be guests. Some people I know some people plus one. Okay. Then they film the whole thing. Then they ask interviews from people, they cut Parts where do you know who is she? They don't have any idea who I am. They just came. They saw me first time. Right.

[B]

So the way that it's portrayed is that you are talk about how you have a big PR company and you have all these events, and then they go to one of these events, and when they get there, they realize that it's all paid actors or not paid actors, but they're not actual people who work with you. Right, that's what they said.

[A]

Like, she has fake friends. But the question is, like, how bad journalism is if these people are not my friends, they are guests. This is plus one.

[B]

And you never pretended that they were your friend?

[A]

Of course not. I said they will be about 100 people, maybe like 80 people. Some guests, like somebody I know, somebody. Somebody of someone's friends. Of course, they're not my friends.

[B]

That I find it more believable the idea that they got there, they were expecting one thing, and then they started interviewing people. And they use that as a way to show that maybe there were sort of holes in your story. I also understand. I have filmed lots of times in Airbnb, and there have been situations where we don't reveal it's an Airbnb. We also don't pretend it's somebody's house. But I think maybe things got sort.

[A]

Of no there because they wanted particular. So they had, like, a schedule. They, like, wanted particular house. My house, like, filmed in my house.

[B]

And you didn't want to.

[A]

I couldn't invite them to my house. I had, like, a kid. I mean, like, come on. And they're like, okay, can you, like, rent something? So. So then, first of all, they pushed me to rent something, which I actually didn't want to because I didn't want to spend money on. Like, why would I need to spend my own money to rent? Like, if they want to, they can rent them themselves. So eventually, okay, we really need it. Please, please, please, blah, blah, blah. Okay, I rented. Then they come like, can you please tell it? This is your house. I think, like, there was a question of this. Like, oh, this is your house, or do you live here? Or blah, blah, blah. Then they go to the military photos. I show them the photos, which I. I have my military photos. They didn't even use it. They cut it out. They didn't use the whole interview. They didn't. They. They show, like, they. The only one picture which was on the. Over there. They said, like, the question was different. They, again, they cut it out. They edited it. The question Was is it the way of the mill, like military agents looks like I said, like, this is like the way it is or something like this. And I particularly showed that this photo. And then I showed another three pictures which I had with me, and I sent them to email to kind of like use it for the footage, which they never did because they asked me, yes, please send us everything. And they never did use it. This is. Was the second part. Right after this, we go to this event. In the event, they ask people who obviously don't know me because they just come to the event, they just come to drink.

[B]

But the journalist confronts you about this photo in at the beach. It was one of the last scenes. And she tells you, we searched the photo and the photo's from 2017, and it's not from when you say it was. In that case, why didn't you have that answer? Why didn't you say, actually this is definitely not me in this photo, and I never pretended it was.

[A]

Yes, right. So when we were sitting in the beach, there was like two or three hours conversation, like a really big conversation so on. When she asked me about these photos, like, I think like she. The. The question, I even don't remember. I didn't watch it for so long. Like, I think it was out like three years ago or something. So something along the line, where were you? Okay, I remember now. There was a misunderstanding with years because they found somewhere information that in 2009 or something I was in Russia or like doing MTV or something thing. Right.

[B]

There was an MTV thing too.

[A]

That was. That was wrong because I actually did that. But it was much earlier when I was still in Russia because they were saying that there was a confusion with ages, with years. Like you were like 18 then 20, then you move here, you move there. Why are you. Why does it say somewhere, I think like an Internet. Does it say that 2009 or 2012. I don't remember it. You were in MTV? Well, where I wasn't. I was much earlier in MTV because we did like one video there. So the whole thing started from there with photos. Again, like, I think it was only one question. Like, were you something? Like, was it like something similar like this or something like that?

[B]

Yeah, I think the question from her was, we checked this photo. We did a Google reverse search image search, and it was taken in 2017. So. So it's 10 years after you left, or more than 10 years. This is not possibly you. So why did you pretend it was you and you didn't have an answer for that. And I'm not. Look, I'm not. No, no, no.

[A]

Yes, yes, yes. No, I am. No, because I know that the truth is in my side. And I know I was like, set up from the beginning. And I know why they were doing this because they. I understood. I realized after when I spoke with them, because I was like, what? Like, the guys, like, what the heck? And they'll like, this is our first documentary for Vice. We, like, need to make it big. We need, like, to make it more provocative, blah, blah, blah, blah. My mistake was not to have. Not to ask to see it before the release. Because I could ask that.

[B]

That's not usually done. We. I never. We never. I film with even criminals all around the world, and we never show footage.

[A]

As a journalist, but then they're supposed to sign press release or something.

[B]

Sign a release. Release before an appearance, released before. But you sort of trust the journalists that they're going to portray in a fair and balanced way, right?

[A]

Exactly. So I trust the journalists who actually portrayed me in a really bad way. Right.

[B]

And you have not been in touch with this journalist ever since?

[A]

No, I did. I actually said to them, like, I had the mail. He blocked me because, like, we had, like, conversations on WhatsApp. I'm like, Adrian, why would you do this? Like, why would you portray me this way? It will harm all my other, like, basically ideas of, like, helping women and, like, being like, has it harmed you? Well, of course it does. I lost a big deal with the book company, with the book publisher. Of course it does. Of course. Like, they literally like, really ruined my whole beginning. Of course. Of course.

[B]

Yeah. I don't want to, like, harp on the photo. I think that there was some sort of unanswered questions there. But I do wonder why do you think people have such a hard time believing in your story?

[A]

Because it's very easy. Because people don't know what this profession is about. That's why we are doing what we are doing right now with books, with TV series, with documentaries. I'm working right now. Just simple. People don't know what is this job. Like, they see these movies about James Bond, they see this movie about Red Sparrow. They think this is all fantasy, it's all scripted. There is in fact, fact, it's the reality. But because it's secret profession, it's secret intelligence. Right? You're supposed not to know that. But it's only because of this profession. Actually, people sleep. Sleep at night, normally in the house, in a warm bed. It's because of secret agents. Who are protecting them from terrorist attacks. Right. Yeah.

[B]

And I know that it's real. I know this. And actually brings me back to that Times of London article which came out recently and you've been asked to talk in the press about it. So the article talked is basically talked about Chinese and Russian sex warfare. Right. And explained how the Chinese, and especially the Chinese, but also the Russian government are using, essentially the story you told are using women for honey traps to get information.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

From Silicon Valley tech companies, which is. Can be really damaging to the economy.

[A]

And $600 billion taxpayers, U.S. taxpayers lose. I mean, it's a big amount of money.

[B]

Yeah. That's a number that I came across that was. Blew my mind too, which was, yeah, up to $600 billion a year are lost to theft of trade secrets in America.

[A]

To Americans, basically, it's all money. Right, Right.

[B]

And so, yeah, I definitely know that that exists. I think maybe the part that I think is harder for people to believe, and that's what I wanted you also to address, is the idea that knowing that there have been so many defectors who have been killed, the fact that you. Not only that you're now sharing your story publicly and so openly, but also you've become an influencer. You have lots of followers. There's not a lot of your past that you're even trying to hide. And why would you want to do that? And isn't that incredibly risky? And aren't you afraid that you'll be killed for doing it?

[A]

So I became influencer before I revealed my past. Actually, I moved to London 2000, so my son was like four years old, which was 2000, 2016, I said, I guess, right. 16 or 15. I moved to London. I always dreamed to work in fashion, so I got enrolled into top fashion universities to do my master degree in fashion pr, which I did successfully. And the first homework task was to create an Instagram and do the blog about fashion. And if people will scroll back if they would want to, they will see that the first post is about me being an Instituto Morangoni and starting this is my first post. And then I posted all about fashion. I became an influencer in London as a fashion influencer. I was a fashion journalist. I wrote. I still write about fashion, but I work for Tatler, for Conde Nast, for Ventifra and so on. I've organized a lot of fashion events, like, you know, galas and dinners and fashion shows and so on in London and Paris. So I already became an influencer there. I had to leave UK Because I just previously said why I come to United States. And again, as I said, my lawyer said if you want to stay in United States legally, you have to reveal about your past. You have to go public. You have to. Because of also Ukrainian war and everything. You have to to. It's better for you.

[B]

The lawyer told you that? Yeah.

[A]

It's not just only one lawyer, believe me. I, I had at least like five good lawyers and I was having consultation with them and all that and they all told me the same.

[B]

So the best way to protect yourself is to come clean about your story and your spy past. Your past as a spy.

[A]

Yeah, because as you remember 2010, active female agents like Anna Chapman, Maria Baturn and other like five or six or whatever, they were deported from United States to Russia. And we even don't know if they were actually, if they ever were proven that they were real spies or not because like there were like some stuff. But I'm not sure, to be honest. I don't know if they're real active agents or not. Who knows? But if you like see the Anna Chapman story, she was deported as you know, they said like, oh, she's active female agents, honeypot agent. They deported her to Russia, etc, and she's now like also, you can say the same influencer TV host. She has like her TV show on the, you know, one of the biggest networks. She is a fashion model. She works like fashion runaway shows. She's like ambassador for different brands and so on. Here you go. Oh, she just wrote the book, blah, blah, blah.

[B]

So.

[A]

Question is, I know so many former CIA agents who also wrote books who became public speakers, who became public figures.

[B]

Same story, but it's different because they're not going to Russia and defecting and talking about the trade secrets of what's happening. And I know you mentioned that you're not actually talking about the trade secrets. The stuff that you're talking about is stuff that's general knowledge, right? You're not, not giving information that can be harmful to the Russian government. But then again they trained you and now then you left and they invested in you and then you defected.

[A]

No, but that's. They. Yeah, but then message was like, okay, so if I would just like, you know, if I would just like quit right now, maybe. Yes, but I actually finished like many years ago, so I'm not that important assets anymore. This is number one, number two. You know, they say from two evils you choose the lesson. Right? So I had two options when I came to America. Either I would be Deported because of my past to Russia. And what would happen with me there? We don't know. Most likely that would be the end. That was the most dangerous. Yeah. And second, I would reveal my identity and. And sort of like balance in United States, where it's still risky, but it's less evil if it does make sense.

[B]

Yeah, I understand that. And that was advice that your lawyers gave you that you should 100%. And have you been contacted by the Russian government ever since you came up?

[A]

I've been two times during the second. Oh, my God, during the Ukraine war. Like, literally in the beginning with the same thing. Like, come back. We have, like, you know, apartment for you where you can live with your son. We will give you the car. You'll be a good asset. Come back and work.

[B]

This was when you first came out as a spy.

[A]

It was just before. It was just beginning of Ukraine. It was just. Just beginning. Beginning. And it was before I actually started to, like, like, share publicly about myself, like, come very publicly. And the second time, it was one contact, When To Die for podcast was released. And actually it was not the FSB or whatever. It was kind of like, who worked there before, but now he's, like, civilian.

[B]

But he's still kind of like retired, but still connected.

[A]

Connected to that. I don't, like. I don't know if it's a retired to, like, not, like, probably, like, just, like, left or whatever, but kind of like sending information, like, sending a message, you know, like. But no, like, kind of like, like, oh, if you will not come back to Russia, we'll give you not. Not something like that, but, like, with a lot of, like, are you sure you're doing the right thing? Maybe you should. And maybe you, like, you shouldn't go, like, maybe you should, like, just leave this thing and just close your Instagram and just, like, like, you know, change your name and just move to Ohio, like, Alabama, and just.

[B]

Are you scared at all? Well.

[A]

I'm scared for my. The future of my son, for my parents. I'm not scared for my life. You know, simply, it's because of. I would say, like, this. I have not so many emotions in my body, unfortunately, and I don't have any fears, if you understand what I mean. Like, I simply don't. I'm careful with what I'm doing in my life. So, for example, I don't allow myself to dry fast, which I love, or I don't allow myself to do extreme things, which I love, just for my adrenaline or whatever, but I don't have any, like, you know, really, like, emotions? Emotions. Like, some things stimulates me, some not. But I cannot say, like, I'm depressed either. I cannot say I'm super happy. I don't really have these fears. Like, you know, not really.

[B]

I understand. Yeah. This was. This was all great, and I really. I appreciate you allowing me to go there and asking you difficult questions. I think that it's important to answer those difficult questions because as you said, some of the articles and stuff that's written about you online, questioning the veracity of your story has actually affected you. And I think that it'll be up to our listeners and our viewers to decide.

[A]

Yeah. I always say, like, you know, everybody has their own opinion about everything. And as we discussed in the beginning of interview press, they sometimes just in order to make a very interesting highlight, they write about somebody or, like, for example, me, like, oh, like a sex spy confession or like a master of manipulator.

[B]

I'm going to tell you right now that that is probably how we're going to describe you, too. Not a master manipulator, but the sex spy, because that's a term that's catchy and that's. People will want to read about your story.

[A]

Right. Yeah, I mean, I understand, but, like, then again, we just spoke about this app. What's the name? I forgot? The Perplexity app. Right. And you said the Perplexity app or, like, which app actually gave my name as the only one and the first espionage expert and agent. I'm the first one who's revealing this information. Of course, people may not believe because I'm the first one, and it's always hard to be the first one. Maybe my story will encourage another former sex Spanish agents to come and say, actually, I've done the same. I know what she's talking about. So it is normal for people not to believe me, and I don't push them to believe me. Of course. And it's all about me sharing my story, telling what I'm about. And it's your opinion if you believe me or you don't believe me. It's up to you.

[B]

Absolutely. Well, I really appreciate the time we spent together.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Really enjoyed our conversation and getting to know you a little bit.

[A]

Me too. Thank you so much for this, and I really appreciate it.

[B]

Thank you so much, Aaliyah.

[A]

Thank you.