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- [00:01]
Shaka Senghor
It's not even 20 minutes before a car pulls up and they want to do a drug transaction. And I'm like, I'm not doing the drug transactions. It's hot over here. It's all this. All this stuff I'm on. I'm on. I'm on that energy, you know? And that led to an argument that escalated. And as the argument escalated, I ended up firing what turned out to be four shots that tragically caused the man's death. And, you know, there's a moment in that story I always think about where I turned to walk away, and I'm like, if I'd have just took one more step.
- [00:47]
Interviewer
My guest today is Shaka Singhor. He grew up in Detroit, ran away from home at 14, and ended up in prison for murder at 19. He spent the next 19 years incarcerated, seven of them in solitary confinement. But inside that cell is where he discovered a path back to himself. Today he's a New York Times bestselling author, a speaker, a resilience expert. Really want to talk about that. And an advisor to some of the biggest companies in the world, including Meta, Apple, and Google. He just wrote a new book called how to Be Free. Shaka, welcome to the podcast.
- [01:20]
Shaka Senghor
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here today.
- [01:22]
Interviewer
I am, too. So I've been looking forward to having you on the podcast for several months now, ever since I started, actually, but then got even more excited when I started actually doing some research on other interviews you've done. And I read that Oprah said that you were the most interesting conversation she's had, not in her career, but in her life. Entire life. And I was like, okay, I really. I can't walk. I'm gonna run to this interview.
- [01:48]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, no, I mean, that. That. Hearing that from Oprah, like, Lily blew my mind. Like, when we were in an interview, I felt like we were having just. I. I genuinely felt like we had a soul moment. And I don't know what people's beliefs are, but I'm like, if there's a human manifestation of whatever you think of as God, I felt like I was really, genuinely sitting in the presence of it.
- [02:13]
Interviewer
Wow.
- [02:14]
Shaka Senghor
She was that present. You know, I was scared going into it, though. I was like, oh, man. Like, she's about to be judgmental, and she's about to, like, really, you know, go really, really hard on, like, my past and some of the poor decisions. And she just was so intentional about having a meaningful conversation.
- [02:34]
Interviewer
And it's interesting. Do you feel like that whenever you go into interviews, because obviously your past weighs so heavily on you, is that something that you wonder beforehand, how is this person going to treat me?
- [02:45]
Shaka Senghor
I think. I think there was definitely a point. I think with Oprah, it was. It was different because I'm like, she's Oprah. She's just like, love stars, rainbows, you know, here I am, this guy. And I hadn't been out of prison that super long at that point, too. Like, all, like, I think, like, maybe five years. So I still was a little kind of rough around the edges, still kind of uncertain of who I was in the world. And, you know, just knowing, like, she's at the top of the, you know, game as far as, you know, interviews. And so I think. And I cared a lot about what she thought because, like, when I started writing, like, one of my grand, ridiculous, absurd beliefs in prison was one day I would write something that was worthy of her reading.
- [03:31]
Interviewer
And so really, you made that sort of a goal of yours. That's a dream that you had.
- [03:35]
Shaka Senghor
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And so there was, like, all that, you know, tension, and. And then it just ended up being such an amazing, heartfelt conversation.
- [03:45]
Interviewer
Yeah, yeah, I listened to it. It was incredible. I also listened to your podcast with Joe Rogan. I want to get there as well after we learn more about you. So. Okay, so tell me about. You grew up in Detroit.
- [03:56]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah.
- [03:57]
Interviewer
How was that? What was your childhood like?
- [03:58]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, I mean, you know, originally growing up, you know, it's kind of like this duality. It's the outside of the home and the inside of the home. And, you know, when I grew up in Detroit, you know, our neighborhood was just like, this corner of the world that was just rich with, like, life. You know, it was very diverse. Like, we were. That. We were actually the first black family on the block. You know, when I. When I was, you know, I was born. But soon we just had this great mixture of families around us. One of my fondest memories of is fruit trees. And, like, one neighbor had pear trees. We had a grapevine. Other neighbor had peach trees. And so I grew up, you know, just this kid that I remember, like, the joy of being in community and, like, really having a real community. And then it just changed. Like, the outside of the neighborhood change, you know, crack epidemic, you know, that took over. We had what we call white flight, where a lot of people moved from the city to the suburbs due to the automotive industry collapsing. And on that, you know, on the outside looking in, our family was, like, the model for working Class America. My dad was, you know, in the military, and he also worked for the state. My mom was a homemaker with six kids. But it was a brutal environment. It was a very abusive environment.
- [05:12]
Interviewer
And how so?
- [05:14]
Shaka Senghor
My mom was physically abusive, and then my dad was complicit in the sense that he never, like, intervened or stepped in.
- [05:22]
Interviewer
Why do you think your mom was abusive?
- [05:24]
Shaka Senghor
Well, I know now, you know, as a kid, I didn't know her story. I didn't know what happened to her. And what I've learned to my mom and to her credit is like, she's. She's an incredible woman. Like, she's a. She's incredibly resilient, you know, and very. She's a true. Embodies, the true meaning of a survivor. And like, even, you know, at times, it's difficult to talk about now because I know her so differently now. And what I've learned from my mom is that my mother went through horrendous, like, abuse, you know, sexual assault, physical abuse, you know, emotional abuse from a very early age on all the way to young adulthood where she had her first three kids when she was like, 16, 17, 18. And so, you know, to go from all that abuse to now you got responsibility with these first three kids.
- [06:14]
Interviewer
Were you one of the first?
- [06:15]
Shaka Senghor
No, I'm on the second part. So I'm the first of the next three with my dad. And, you know, I. I have so much grace for them when I look back. Like, they were babies, you know, they were babies with a lot of babies. But I learned from my mom is that she just did what was done to her, and she thought that she was doing the right thing. She thought that, you know, her approach to keeping us in line or keeping us safe was what it. What she had experienced, and it wasn't.
- [06:45]
Interviewer
Can you give me an example?
- [06:46]
Shaka Senghor
I mean, it was the physical violence. It was like a very volatile. It was beyond just like a corporal spanking. It was like beatings with extension cords and switches and, you know, these extreme punishments. And then it was just the emotional side of it, you know, the verbal and the psychological trauma of witnessing my brothers, my older siblings, being beat before I was even like, of age to be beat in that way. And so it's a very volatile environment.
- [07:14]
Interviewer
Is she still alive?
- [07:15]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's kind of like our roles have reversed in a little bit. Like, I feel more parental and protective of her now. Even though we were estranged for years, we had a very difficult relationship. I mean, you know, the time I spent in prison I was on year 17 when my mother finally came to see me. And so I had, like, all these, you know, these kind of. These feelings of abandonment from, like, a very early age. You know, when I ran away, it was just like, I'm out here in this world on my own. You know, I'm this naive kid. You know, I'm smart, want to be a doctor and an artist, but the abuse is such in the home that I'm like, I gotta go. I just got to run away. And I thought that, you know, I thought that someone would see you notice this. This kid, you know, and this smart kid and this little handsome kid with all these just, like, talents and gifts and just, like, embrace me with, like, that warmth that I think, you know, kids are deserving of. And as you know, from, like, you know, your work, the streets prey upon that. You know, a vulnerable kid in the streets is just like, oh, you're the next one up to become who we are. And so I was navigating a very adult world very early on.
- [08:34]
Interviewer
Hey, everyone. So I have something really important I wanted to share with you all. For more than 20 years, I've gone to places that most people would never willingly step into. Cartel territory, scam compounds, trafficking networks. And what I've learned is that the most important stories are. Are the hardest ones to share. Not because people don't want to watch these stories, but because corporations, advertisers, and algorithms now decide what gets made and what doesn't. The Hidden Third exists outside all of that. No network censorship, no sponsor conflicts, no compromises. And the only way to keep it that way is to build it directly with you. That's why I created the Hidden Third. Patreon Bonus episodes Behind the scenes from the fields, early access to new episodes. A direct line to me and the reporting as it happens, and much, much more. If you're still watching this right now, you're exactly who I built this for. So join us@patreon.com thehidden third the link is below. And now back to the conversation. So you were a great student, right before you flew at home. You were a really good student. You were very smart. Do you. Did the teachers. Were you. Do you remember, like, teachers telling you and telling your parents, this kid is really smart. You guys should pay attention to. He has a bright future ahead of him. Was this some. Something that was discussed?
- [10:01]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, absolutely. One of the. One of my fondest memories of my childhood is. Is, you know, my. My parents. You know, it's like my parents were complex right? It wasn't like, all terrible. It wasn't like, you know, all horrible is these moments of just pure parenting. And, you know, my uncles and aunts would come around. They were so amazed by my ability to read. And, like, my parents would drag me out of bed and come read to your aunts and come read to, you know, your. Your grandparents, you know, and so I think they realized that early on that there was, you know, something there. You know, my teachers always doted on me, like, how fast I finished my work and, you know, how good of a student I was and, you know, but it started getting messed up kind of early. Like, I think by the time I was in, like, sixth grade, I wasn't as interested in school. You know, I had so much going on in my own head as my family was being torn apart, you know.
- [10:55]
Interviewer
Your parents got divorced, right?
- [10:57]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, so that was the first time I got separated. I think I was in about sixth grade. And then they got back together, and then they separated when I was in. Going into eighth grade. That's the first time that my mom was like, you gotta go live with your dad. And even though, like, I knew going to live with my dad was gonna be cool, there was something about my mother saying, you have to go. And, like, even though there was the abuse there that I think that probably did more damage than anything than just being like, you know, you have to go live with your dad, and, like, you can't live here in the home that you grew up with. Even though it was like, you know, house of horrors at time, it was still like, why do I have to go? Like, what's wrong with me? And then they got back together, and then we were. By that time, me and her was just in this space of, like, you know, I was getting older. It's like, you can't. You can't tell me anything. And so once it got to that point, I knew I was getting stronger. And I'm like, you can't hit me. You know, and so I knew that I would never react to her hitting me. And so I just. I ran away, and I just was like. I literally thought somebody was going to be like, oh, you just come live here. You know, you'll be all right. And for the first two weeks, I was just, like. I was sleeping in garages, you know, I was sleeping in my friend's basements.
- [12:22]
Interviewer
And you were 13, right?
- [12:23]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, like 13, yeah. And they would, like, sneak me food, and we would go and hustle up at the grocery store, and, like, somebody's Coming out to grocery store with their bags. I'm like, hey, let me take your bags to your car. And they'll give me 50 cent. I'll go buy some cookies and, you know, some baloney or whatever I could. And I mean, for two weeks, I was just bouncing around, you know, and then this guy, this guy named Mountain, deceased, but I remember him pulling up on a block, you know, he pulls up the cars, music is blaring, and everybody's like, oh, it's Mo. He's recruiting. He's looking for guys to sell drugs, you know. And I remember one of my friends was like, man, you should talk to Miko. You ain't got nowhere to go. He can, like, help you, you know. And so we, you know, we're talking. He was like, yeah. He's like, let's hop in the car. He's like, this is gonna just come ride. And I remember he took me to Burger King. You know, I always tell people that I got seduced into the drug because it really is. When you're a kid, it is a real seduction into this very adult world. Just like, hey, here, let's go get something to eat. What are you doing? Where do you got to go? I got somewhere for you, you know, here. I can help you make money. I can help you, you know, and all the other things are true, right? The allure of it, the. The sense of being mesmerized, you know, at that age, you know, with the jury and the. The loud music and the cars and the. All the things. Like, those things are real. They're real lords. But there's a deeper thing that's really happens with these more seasoned guys is that they're convinced you that they really have your back.
- [14:00]
Interviewer
So not only sort of the indirect allure, right, of if you're. I've heard this many times throughout my life, reporting in these. In these worlds, you know, this idea. I remember asking a guy here in LA who was a pimp, and I asked him, how did you become a pimp? He was like, look, I grew up in a neighborhood where the people that were bringing back the. You know, were driving in with nice cars and were bringing back, you know, food and expensive items for their families. We're the pimps. So when in my neighborhood, we didn't want to be doctors or lawyers, we wanted to be pimps because that's the way that we could provide for our families. And. And so that's sort of the indirect, right? Lure to the. To that world. But in. In. In your case, and in many cases, it's also a direct lure. Right. Where people actually like, what's his name? Who's Miko? Where Mikko actually approached you directly and started trying to get you into the trade.
- [14:54]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, this was the beginning of crack cocaine, like, even penetrating the Midwest at 13. I have no idea what was there before, what was there after, but that was beginning of that world where these young guys were being recruited. You know, a lot of my friends ended up in that culture. A lot of us ended up addicted to crack cocaine at a very early age. I think all of us went to prison. Most of us have been shot on multiple occasions. So, yeah, it's a very, you know, that I think about that often when I think about my neighborhood, like, what happened, you know, how devastating it was to, like, you know, we had at some point where one point we had dreams, you know, we wanted to be doctors, and we wanted to be, you know, these other, you know, things. You know, dentists and all the things people would come to career day and tell us about, but it just didn't seem accessible. And so you. What was accessible in a moment of just hurt was like, somebody saying, hey, here. I accept you. And not only do I accept you, I'll help you.
- [16:02]
Interviewer
Right? Yeah. I'll take you in, and I'll find a way for you to survive. Can I ask you a question? Why did you want to be a doctor when you were young?
- [16:11]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah. So, you know, when I first started thinking about it, as I got older, I was doing a lot of journaling, and I was asking myself these really tough questions of, like, what was it that, you know, made me want to be a doctor? You know, so. Because I always had this kind of duality of, like, doctor and artist, you know, like, those are two things, and the art. That was just the pure nature of who I knew I was. Being a doctor, I felt like it would make my mother treat me nice because she. Because she was always nice whenever we went to the doctor. It was just this whole switch of a person that I would see whenever there was. We had to go to the hospital or, you know. Yeah. And so I'm like, if I become that, then maybe, just maybe she'll treat me nice. You know, she'll respect you. Yeah. So that became, like, the story that I would tell over and over. It's like, yeah, I want to be a doctor. I'm gonna grow up, and I'm gonna be a doctor. And really, I wanted to be an artist. Like, that was my true Calling.
- [17:16]
Interviewer
It's fascinating. I say this a lot. I think about this a lot when people ask me why I wanted to become a journalist as well. And so much of what we become is because of what the relationship we have with our parents. Right. And I think for daughters they always want, or my case, for sure. I wanted to impress my father, right. And he was very knowledgeable. He was a man that had, was always reading books and had a lot of knowledge about what was happening around the world. So me being a journalist was part of this, right. Wanted to have that knowledge and be able to know all the things and, and impress him. It's very much part of why I wanted to become a journalist. So it's so interesting that, that you said that in, in your case, like,
- [17:58]
Shaka Senghor
what do you still feel like that, does that still.
- [18:02]
Interviewer
Well, well, now I have a very different relationship with my father. He actually lives with us. He moved to the US a few years ago and lives with me. Yeah, I still, I'm still happy when I impress him.
- [18:14]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah.
- [18:14]
Interviewer
But I impress him a lot more often, which is good. I'm. Yeah, it's really fascinating. And so you went to the Burger King with him and that day and then. So he offered you a job selling drugs, selling crack at the time, did you. Were you addicted to crack at the time, did you use crack too?
- [18:32]
Shaka Senghor
I eventually became addicted like shortly into my career again, it was like. So there was Miko and then there was these other guys who were also selling drugs. He was, he was basically assembling in a company and all of us played different roles within the company. And it was like this starting space was working in a house. That was the starting spot, right? You work in, you sell this, the door to door. This is. You're dealing with everybody, all the addicts, you're dealing with all the crazy. And I mean I came into like a high level crazy world. Like I had never shot a gun and next thing you know I got a sawed off shotgun in my hand. And they're just telling me if somebody breaks in, you just push this latch and you just shoot. And so hanging out there with the older guys, it went from like they were, they were getting high and they were smoking lace joints so they would crush the rocks up and lace the joints and smoke it and they just. I didn't realize they were doing it behind Miko's back because they made it seem like nothing was wrong with it, that it was just like normal, it was just cool. It was just like, ah, this is what we Do. And so early on, it was like, it went from that to like, yo, you need this. And I'm like, I didn't even smoke weed at the time. You know, I didn't even smoke cigarettes, really. You know, so it was just the pressure of that being around it, you know, the. I would say influence more than pressure, right? And next thing you know, I started smoking these crack lace joints. And it went from like, I'm making all this money to, like, now I'm spending the money I make. It's a. It's an infinite chase to be high. Like, it's not like, you know, you drink a bottle of liquor and you're drunk, you go to sleep. It's like, as long as you're awake, you're chasing it. You're chasing it, right? So you just started burning through cash relatively fast. And, you know, at that age, I'm. I'm. I went from messing up my own money to now I'm messing up Miko's money. And I remember one time I, like, messed up all the money. I smoked up all the money. Me and this motley crew of older guys. And then they. They. They kind of left, left, right, And Miko and these three guys, they came and they. They literally beat me, like, to within the inch of my life. Wow. And I just was like, you know, I'm trying to fight these grown men, and I'll never forget, like, right before one of the guys punched me in the face, Miko was like, you know, you're like my little brother, you know? And, like, one of his henchmen is, like, literally a grown man, like, really punched me in the face. And so they beat me. And we were. We were selling out of a. This is another duplex. And I remember there's a young woman who lived upstairs. She had a little boy. You know, back then, she seemed like a really, really grown woman because, you know, I'm like, 13, 14 at this time, and she had a kid, you know, and. But she really was, you know, probably young, you know, young, 20s, whatever. But I remember she came downstairs, I was still laying on the floor, and I remember her just, like, getting a towel, wiping my face, and just being like, why are you, like, here with these guys? Like, they don't care about you. And all I could think about is this guy was like, you're like my little brother as they're, like, beating the shit out of me, you know? And so that's the brutality of it. It's just that world. It's just like a Very cutthroat, very disposable world. I mean, I, you know, obviously I've done a lot of time in solitary. There's moments from that part of my life that are just, was so isolating, like, so just like these guys could have killed me, you know, and, and I don't know if they were practicing restraint, you know, I don't, I don't know. You know, I was a kid, you know, every punch from a grown man felt like they're trying to kill you, you know. And despite that, I continued on in the culture. It's wild. You know, you were introduced, you talking about resilience expert. I think about what it means to be resilient a lot. And I go back to that little boy, you know, and I think about how I broke that addiction and I came home all these years later and there's people who were addicted back then that are still addicted to crack. Like it's that, you know, strong of an addiction. And I, I broke that.
- [22:57]
Interviewer
I just went cold turkey right after that. Beating?
- [22:59]
Shaka Senghor
No, it was like shortly after it, but it was like I, I, I was more interested in making money than being high and definitely more interested in making money than being killed then. Beat. Yeah, killed, right. But I just remember like going cold turkey, I was like, I want to make money. I want to get back to hustling and, and, you know, make your money.
- [23:20]
Interviewer
Eczema is unpredictable, but you can flare
- [23:23]
Shaka Senghor
less with epglis, a once monthly treatment
- [23:26]
Interviewer
for moderate to severe eczema.
- [23:28]
Shaka Senghor
After an initial four month or longer dosing phase.
- [23:30]
Interviewer
About 4 in 10 people taking EBGLIS achieved itch relief in clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks.
- [23:35]
Shaka Senghor
And most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing.
- [23:39]
Interviewer
Hempglis Lebricizumab LBKZ a 250mg per 2ml
- [23:43]
Shaka Senghor
injection is a prescription medicine used to
- [23:45]
Interviewer
treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema, also called atopic dermatitis, that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies.
- [23:57]
Shaka Senghor
EBGLIS can be used with or without topical corticosteroids.
- [23:59]
Interviewer
Don't use if you're allergic to ebglis, allergic reactions can occur that can be severe eye problems can occur.
- [24:04]
Shaka Senghor
Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems, you should not
- [24:07]
Interviewer
receive a live vaccine.
- [24:08]
Shaka Senghor
When treated with Ebglis.
- [24:09]
Interviewer
Before starting Ebglis, tell your doctor if
- [24:11]
Shaka Senghor
you have a parasitic infection, ask your doctor about ebglis and visit ebgliss.lilly.com or call 1-800-LilyRx 1-800-545-5979.
- [24:20]
Interviewer
Did you realize that? Do you think you realized at the time that that was a really hard thing you were able to pull off?
- [24:25]
Shaka Senghor
I didn't. You know, it's one of the things I tell people about resilience is like, you don't know how you resilient you are until you just go through things. You know, you go through things, then you go through more things. You go through things, you go through more things, and then you realize, like, you have a capacity, you know, probably bigger than what you would ever think. You know, if I would have went into this life knowing that I was going to go through all the horrors, all the physical violence, all the trauma, and you'd have told me that that person was going to come out on the other side of that. There's no world where I would have thought that was possible.
- [24:57]
Interviewer
Right.
- [24:57]
Shaka Senghor
You know, but it's. When I was in it, I was just choosing, like, get up off that bathroom floor, right? You know, don't, don't, don't die here. You know, don't let them win. You know, and so it was. It was in there and like, breaking addiction, it wasn't even like, hammer, be tough and do this. It's just like, all right, I don't want to. I want to. I want to make money. Like, I want to get back to making money. So, yeah.
- [25:22]
Interviewer
And then you did for some time, right? And you. Were you good at making money? Were you good at selling drugs?
- [25:26]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, I was really good at selling drugs. It's really interesting that I had, like this. I think I had, like this, you know, kind of uncanny ability to see around the corner in a way that, you know, some of my peers I don't think had. I wasn't great at managing money. I made a lot of money, but I spent a lot of money and I gave away a lot of money. Just like you're trying to make sure everybody around you is. Is good. And I mean, as a kid. As a kid, what are you going to manage? Like, you don't. You're just living in the moment. But I was very.
- [25:58]
Interviewer
You're not putting money into your 401k.
- [25:59]
Shaka Senghor
You're just like, you know, a little bit up under the mattress, but a lot going out the door. So know, you, you bring it in and I mean, this was like the height of crack cocaine evidently. So this is like, I mean, we're making up so much money is ridiculous, you know. And like I was just a kid, you know, I'm like, I remember the first time I got, I got paid and I got paid in all singles, so probably like 400 single dollar bills. It's like a lot of cash. Like, this is ridiculous. I go down to this grocery store and I just started buying all this cereal. And it was like so ridiculous. Like when, I mean, I laugh about it now, but it was really was like, what else is a kid gonna do with a bunch of money? Oh, wow.
- [26:38]
Interviewer
Then buy cereal.
- [26:39]
Shaka Senghor
Cereal. I bought like cereal. And then I was like, I bought chocolate milk and strawberry milk. It was just ridiculous. Right? And I mean, I would go and buy sneakers. I would just literally stand there and count out a hundred singles. Yeah. And I'm like, you know, you think about, it's like people knew something. Illegals, you're not getting allowance in 100 singles. Right. But there were things about how we sold drugs that I was able to figure out relatively quickly. So like, I remember we pulled up one day and it's just line wrapped around the side of the house coming out onto the sidewalk. And I'm like, it's very obvious we're doing something illegal here. Cause these people, it's not like kids will come and buy candy before school. They'll come and, you know, you got people who sell meals out their home. You know, they might sell them out the side door. I'm like, none of these people in this line look like they're doing. They're buying anything. They look like they are going through, they've been through the wringer. They want something different. And I remember just telling Miko, I was like, man, I was like, we're definitely going to jail if we don't move this traffic inside the house. And so the reason that the traffic was going around is because we had an armor guard gate, like right at the door. And I was like, what if we move the gate up between the basement and the kitchen and allow them to walk freely in where they can only go down the basement. And then you can wind that traffic down and then nobody can see all these people. And then I was like, I realized like whenever people hung out, they spent more money. So we started letting them actually get high in the basement. And so we would end up, I would just go down there and watch. Like, I would just watch people like Lily smoke their whole paycheck. And I would just sit there like a bartender just selling crack. And I learned how to cook crack down there. I learned how to take the remnants of crack, like the crumbs, and re. Cook it. I would watch these people, like, when they would smoke the crack through their pipes, it builds up an oil residue. And I would watch them literally put alcohol in it, shake it up. They would, like, pour it on the mirror and light it, and it would, like, smoke the. It was like, well, it wouldn't smoke. It would like, dry it all out and then scrape it up and then they would smoke that. Wow. And so I would just watch all these. Just the mechanisms, the way that women traded their bodies for. For crack, Just the way that men sold their kids clothes and toys and appliances and like, rented us cars. Like, I mean, they would like, come and be like, hey, just take my car for three hours. Just give me a rock. I do. I don't. I don't got a license. I. I can barely see above the dashboard, and you're giving a kid a grow, you know, a whole car. You know, like, it was that. That addiction was like, that devastating in the neighborhood.
- [29:34]
Interviewer
Did you feel bad about it at the time? Did you realize that what you were doing to people by selling them drugs?
- [29:39]
Shaka Senghor
No, like, at the time, it was impossible to really even understand as a kid. Kid, like, how devastating this drug was. There was no precedence for it. Right. Like, I grew up, I had an uncle who was addicted to heroin. And you can see the. The. You can see the effects of hair on the track marks, the swollen hands. And so we had heard, you know, we would just hear the stories of, like, oh, if a person has really fat hands, they're. They're. They're. They do heroin. And so there was at least some kind of baseline understanding that this thing is, like, wrong. When crack hit, it came, and it just like, I mean, this wasn't a matter of years. Like, this devastated our neighborhood in a matter of months. Wow. It was like, you know, the. The. The people on the block who at one time were like extended parents and aunts and uncles, like, they were just falling like dominoes to the addiction. And so women who went from being like, aunts to like, selling their bodies, you know, or offering their bodies, you know, to us as kids, you know, that world was. The world is. Is. Was a cruel. Oh, it's world that I was descent into.
- [30:50]
Interviewer
In. Right. In humanity. Descent into hell.
- [30:53]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah. Yes. I mean, it's nothing like, like, it. I think the Closest we're seeing is probably what's happening with Fentanyl now, right. Where it's like a plague. You know, you think of, like, how one drug can wipe out a whole community.
- [31:06]
Interviewer
Right. I mean, certainly on the streets of Kensington in Philadelphia. That's what you're seeing right now. We've. I've filmed there, and it was one of the most depressing things I've ever seen in my entire life. You know, people bent over like zombies. Yeah. Just horrible scenario. Did your parents at the time know that what you were doing, that you were selling drugs?
- [31:28]
Shaka Senghor
So my dad. I remember one time, one of the older homies, he came, he was like. He's like, man, your dad outside looking for you. And I think they knew, but I don't even think. I mean, crack was so new. I don't even think they realized, like, what they were up against in that culture. And, I mean, there was moments where they were like, you know, try to get me to come home. And, you know, I was in the streets. I was just like, I had experience, agency. I experienced, like, the sense of independence that come with money. I made. I'm sure I made more money than my parents had probably ever seen in their life. And, like, it's hard to pull that back once you've had that exposure. And there was a period where my older. I remember my older brother. Me and my older brother, we were staying together on the east side, and we were staying together. We were selling drugs together. And he got arrested and he went. He was on parole, and he went back to prison in Illinois. And so now I'm at. I got the house. This is me. And I'm like, it's so ridiculous. The house full of teenagers every day. We're like, hustling, getting high, drinking, partying. And my other brother, it's my second oldest brother, he came over one day and he is like. He's like, man, you can't. You can't stay here by yourself. Like, clearly, you don't have to. You out of control over here, you know?
- [32:56]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [32:56]
Shaka Senghor
And he was like, you should think about going home with daddy. You know, he's like, you know, he's like, just called Pops and tell him to come home. And so. And so I went home. This was at this time, my dad and my stepmom, they were living together. I was about 15. And I went home and they. My dad enrolled me into Cooley High School. And I. You know, initially, I. Part of me wanted a fresh start. Part of me really wanted to be a Kid again. And I really tried, you know, I really tried for, like, that first part of, like, going home, like, going to school somewhat and, like, being in class. But I felt like an alien. You know, I felt like the stuff that kids my age were talking about wasn't relatable. They were still, you know, watching comics and, you know, they were doing. They were being kids.
- [33:49]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [33:50]
Shaka Senghor
You know, and, like, I was thinking about grown women and hustling and money and, like, I couldn't deal with, like, an allowance. You know, I'm getting, like, 15, 20 every two weeks, where I went from making 1500 a day and just being able to do what I want to do. And so that led to, like, tension in the household, you know, attention to school, me not wanting to go to school, have going to school. And there was just other tensions at home, you know, with. With. I think because of my exposure to high levels, you know, street life. It was just hard for me to follow rules and listen and. And integrate. And, you know, I started. I felt myself becoming isolated from the household. The one anchor was me and my stepsisters. We had a great relationship. We were cool, so I could talk to her about stuff. But eventually I left and was back to the streets.
- [34:44]
Interviewer
And then something happened.
- [34:46]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah. Yeah. I got back in that world. And a couple of years in, I got shot multiple times.
- [34:53]
Interviewer
What led to the shooting?
- [34:54]
Shaka Senghor
It was an argument I had. This is wild because I used to describe it as this. I was dating this woman before I got arrested when I was about 16. But at 16, you can't date a grown woman just, you know, in the hood. That's what we was like, oh, this is my. My lady. But I remember getting out of Jubilee.
- [35:17]
Interviewer
How old was she?
- [35:18]
Shaka Senghor
She was, like, in her 20s, like, probably 23, 24 somewhere. And when I was in Jubie, you know, we was writing this, you know, yeah, when you come home, it'll be this or that. And I came home and, like, she had moved on, and we ran into each other at the store, and we got into this big argument, and she told her, I guess, her new boyfriend, and he was. He was an adult, and he just pulled up on the. On the block, and me and my guy, we were standing out there just chopping up, you know, talking. And, you know, he said something. I said something back. I'm like, you know, what's up? Get out the fight or whatever. And he just pulled out a gun and started shooting. Yeah. And he shot me three times. So twice in the leg, once in the foot, and. And Then he pulled off and that was like, that was one of the moments where I'm like, you know, and I had, I had, I had been exposed to so much gun violence, like, but that was the first time I got shot. I was actually in the car with my brother when he got shot.
- [36:22]
Interviewer
Before that?
- [36:23]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah. Yes. When I was 16, I was in the car with my brother. He got shot, then I got shot. My older brother got shot in the neck by my other brother. So I had been exposed to like, high levels of like, gun violence, like very early on. And. But getting like actually shot over something that was super trivial. And, you know, two things happened. I didn't really see this guy's face because he was, he was literally just pulled up, he was in the car. And it was like, you know, we're just exchanging words and it's like everything's happening so fast before he's pulled out the gun and shooting. And I went to the hospital and they pulled two bullets out and they left one bullet in and in your leg? In my foot. So I had to have a bullet.
- [37:09]
Interviewer
It's still there.
- [37:10]
Shaka Senghor
Wow. Yeah. Yeah.
- [37:11]
Interviewer
Who took you to the hospital?
- [37:13]
Shaka Senghor
My friend, because ambulance didn't come, so I was just like sitting on the porch bleeding and we was like waiting and waiting for the ambulance. And then he was like, he's like, mama, just take you. You know, because he had got shot the year prior in a situation where his other friend got murdered. So he already kind of knew like how to mitigate the pain and all that. He's telling me what to do, like, oh, you know, hold your leg like this and just like, you know, breathe. And you know, this guy was 18, taking me to the hospital. You know, back then we felt, we felt so grown. And like now, you know, as a mentor, I see, I see these little 18 year old babies.
- [37:52]
Interviewer
You know, I'm the mother of a 15 year old, so everything you're saying is crazy to me.
- [37:58]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah. I actually just recently got a photo of the night before I got shot. And like, I just, I, like, I just, at times I stare at that photo. I'm like, that's a baby. You know, in my mind I was like a gangster. I'm like, I'm, you know, I'm on the streets. I had been in the streets at that point for like four, four years on and off. So I had dealt with all the things, you know. But you think about like, how much trauma my body had experienced by the time I was 17, you know.
- [38:27]
Interviewer
When you were shot, did you what was. What was going through your mind? Were you. And, I mean, you were seeing the blood coming out of your leg. This is the first time that it was three shots that you Were you thinking, I might die, this might be the end?
- [38:39]
Shaka Senghor
You know, I think when I. When a first bullets hit me and I was running, I just remember thinking, like, don't get shot in the head, like. And don't get shot in the back. And so I just remember, like, zigzagging all the things that we. You know, it talked about in the. In the hood of, like, if this happened, this would you do, et cetera, you know. So my. I was like, Lydia is kind of like, auto. You know, right?
- [39:09]
Interviewer
Autopilot, autopilot.
- [39:11]
Shaka Senghor
Like, you know, get out of the situation. And then it was just a moment when I was in the hospital. I just remember, like, my. My. My mom and my dad came, and I remember not really having words. Like, I was the third of their son who had been shot, you know, And I remember just seeing my dad, like, trying to hold it together, and he asked me if I wanted to come home. And I was like, no. You know, I was like, no, I'm good, you know? And I remember the police coming in, and they was like, who shot you? I'm like, I don't know. And this police just went off on me. Like, that's what's wrong with y'. All. Like, nah, like, nobody want to talk when you get shot. I just remember just looking at him. Like, in my mind, I'm like, if I know I'm getting revenge, so I'm not telling you whether. If. Whoever it is, like, I don't even matter. Like, I gotta get back. I gotta get my leg back, you know?
- [40:19]
Interviewer
And you were planning for revenge. You thought you wanted to go back?
- [40:23]
Shaka Senghor
I was. Instantaneously. I'm like, I gotta. I gotta find this guy. How to find this guy? Like, this guy can't just be floating around and he shot me. What if he come back?
- [40:36]
Interviewer
If you knew then what. You know now, how would you have reacted in that situation?
- [40:40]
Shaka Senghor
When the police came, I would have probably tried to see a therapist or a social worker. Like, that's. That's what I think would have been the most helpful thing. I don't think it would have been anything that the police could have really did to, like, help me.
- [41:04]
Interviewer
Would you have given him a name, you think? Or do you think that wouldn't have helped anything?
- [41:07]
Shaka Senghor
No, I was like, so. I mean, that was ingrained in me from, like, so early on, like, you know, the streets are the streets, and you live. You live within the boundaries of that world. I can never honestly tell a kid that's in that world, like, literally, I can never tell a kid in that world to, like, tell. To, like, you know, if you live in that world, you have to be willing to play by the rules. And those. They're tough rules. You know, it's sad. You know, it's sad that we live in a world where we have to think about talking to a young kid about, what do you do if this thing happens? So, you know, I mean, I've had young men in my family been shot since I've been home.
- [41:47]
Interviewer
I think it's so. It's what you're saying. It's. In many ways, if the system has failed you, why should you trust the system? Right. If none of these people are here to protect us or. Or care about us, why should we then trust that they ever will?
- [42:03]
Shaka Senghor
I mean, and it's different when you're not living in the culture of it, because that's a different thing. Like, if you're a kid, it's just, like, caught up in some regular civilian stuff. Like, I can't. That's a different. Whole different conversation.
- [42:17]
Interviewer
What do you mean?
- [42:18]
Shaka Senghor
Like, like, there's kids who. They're not living a life of crime, you know, they're not living the street life. They're not. They're not. They're not bound by that reality of that world, you know? But even with that, I just. I think. I don't think we do enough to help young people who are victims or proximate to gun violence. Really do the hard, like, you can say, tell the police, right? That's not going to. It's not going to disrupt gun violence.
- [42:51]
Interviewer
Right.
- [42:51]
Shaka Senghor
It's just not. You know, if anything, you might endanger that kid even more. But therapy is a different thing. It's how you can navigate the ptsd. Like, when I got shot, you know, I started making up this narrative that I'm shooting first. Like, it's the. It's the one part of my journey where I'm like, man, if I just. If somebody would have just stepped in and been like, yo, that should not have happened to you at that age. Like, that just shouldn't have happened. It shouldn't happen at no age. But, like, that shouldn't have happened to you. Like, an argument shouldn't turn into somebody trying to kill you or harm you, you know?
- [43:30]
Interviewer
Yeah. So the idea for you, then, you made up your mind that the only way you could protect yourself was by shooting first.
- [43:38]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah. Carrying a gun every day, shooting first. There's a part about the night that I committed the murder that a lot of people don't even know what was happening, like, around that night, you know.
- [43:51]
Interviewer
So this was how many years later?
- [43:53]
Shaka Senghor
So I got shot March 8, 1990. In July 1991, I shot and killed a man.
- [44:02]
Interviewer
Wow. So I'm. I count in Portuguese, my mother tongue. So 16 months later. So a year and four months later. Wow.
- [44:13]
Shaka Senghor
16 months later.
- [44:15]
Interviewer
So you went. You have. And. And you. So you went back on the streets, you continued living your life and. And then what were you feeling? How were you processing the. What had happened to you? And tell me about how you were experiencing the PTSD that you mentioned.
- [44:31]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, it's one of the things, like, there was no language for it back then, you know, I remember. So after I got shot, I was probably back in the neighborhood like, within two days at a minimum.
- [44:42]
Interviewer
Wow.
- [44:43]
Shaka Senghor
I don't even think it was a whole two days. I might have got out, like the next day or the day after. And I was on crutches for the first few days. I couldn't walk. Like, I probably was on crutches for probably about a week or two, you know, just hobbling around the neighborhood. I remember the first time, it was like, standing on the corner. It was like not. It was not quite evening yet, but it was getting into that time. And I remember just this car, it's like speeding down the street. It was like, stopped really fast and like, I just like, my body was like, trembling, you know, and like, I'm still had one crutch, so I'm like, if. If something even go down, I can't even run, you know? And it wasn't. It was nothing. It was just somebody's kid just driving through the neighborhood or whatever. Right. Moments where I felt all this, like, anxiety and this, you know, and I'm. I'm like, you know, and I can't tell my guys on the block, like, man, I don't feel comfortable being out here. You know, we was. You know, we had cars, so we drove. You know, Detroit is a car city. So, I mean, just to go to the store, you get in your car and drive around the corner store. But sometimes we would, like, walk. And I just remember not even wanting
- [46:00]
Interviewer
to walk because you were so afraid.
- [46:02]
Shaka Senghor
Because I was just, like, subconsciously, I wasn't even, like, aware of. Aware of why. I just knew I didn't want to walk, you know, and definitely wasn't Walking if I didn't have a gun. And so whenever I would walk through the neighborhood, I would, like, have a hoodie on and my gun in my hand, in my hoodie. Just walking through the neighborhood if I'm walking to the store, you know. And so just being on edge all the time, being, like, hyper reactive to, you know, anything that was perceived as a threat. And like, in that window of time, in 16 months, I shot four different people.
- [46:40]
Interviewer
Oh. Oh. I didn't. I didn't know that. Yeah, you injured them. Like they.
- [46:46]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, like, physically. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's.
- [46:50]
Interviewer
What happened to them?
- [46:50]
Shaka Senghor
There was a guy and I used to sell drugs in Ohio. So I used to go back and forth between Ohio and Detroit. And the first guy, I had these guys who would sell drugs for me in the project. So we would come down from Detroit and then we would like, basically have all the local young guys as runners. And I remember one of the runners was like, he came back, his money was short. And I'm like. I'm like, what's happening? Like, why you short? And he was like, man, this guy came through, was like, let me see the rocks. I pulled him out. He smacked them out of my hand and pulled off. And so basically he. He put his hand in the car with the rocks, smacked him out, right? Took off. And that's how he. That was basically how he stole the drugs. And I was like, initially, I didn't believe him. And I went, you know, talk to some other guys. It's like, yeah, they, like, they be doing that. They. They come through and be like, let me see him. And so for, like, two days, I just came over to, like, the little spot where they were selling. And then one day they was like, there you go, right there. You know what I'm saying? And I literally went up to the car. I'm like, yo, what you need? Blah, blah. I was like, you know, let me see what you got. And literally smacked the rocks out. And I pulled out a pistol and just started shooting and shot him. And. And it was just like. It was like reckless. It was like. Was in Warren, Ohio. It was just like a wild the outlaw west. It was like no rules, you know, like, nobody's going to really say anything. I mean, the rumor spread. Like them Detroit guys shot somebody in the projects. The projects. Like, nobody really cares. And then I got into another conflict down there. I was selling drugs out of this house across street. So I originally was selling it in this house, and it was the aunt and uncle of a Friend of mine who. Who actually had put me up on going down to Ohio and, you know, we're selling drugs out of there. But he had a cousin who, you know, she was attractive, and me and her started going together, and I'm like, y' all can't be selling drugs out of her house like this. My girlfriend now, but I would hide the drugs over there when I would, you know, sell across the street and stash some drugs over there. Drugs come up missing. Her mom blames her. This guy who's her godfather. And when the guy showed up, like, end up beating him, and then I shot him, it was just like, you know, and it was just like that. In that part of my life, I was. I was in this space that was, like, so dark.
- [49:21]
Interviewer
What happened to them, by the way?
- [49:23]
Shaka Senghor
He was fine. He shot him in, like, his leg or something. The other guy, I think I shot him, like, in his arm or like, neither one of them died. Like, I won't say he was fine because it's, like, traumatic, but I mean, like, he didn't die. Neither one of them died. Then I left Ohio, and I got into a conflict with a guy in Detroit, and he. Me and him got into a whole dust up, and he, like, threatened me, and he pulled out a knife. And I remember just being like, dog. Like, knife up dog, you know, and he was old. He was like an older guy. He was like a grown man, you know, And I just remember him coming out the kitchen with the knife, and I just, like, shot him. And, you know, I remember him being like. Like, I'm hit. And I was like, you know, told you, don't pull the knife out. And so, like, at that point, it was just like this cycle in a short amount of time. Which is why. That's why I talk about the PTSD of, like, what that triggers in a person. I know what I was capable of at that time. And then after that, the. The night of the murder, I was DJing a party and, like, some of this. So just for context, the book that's currently on, like, Writing My wrongs, which turned 10 yesterday, that's on the shelf. Some of the things have been edited out from the original. Just raw book with all the stories in it, which is, you know, it's the world of publishing. One of the things that was edit out and part of it, it was. It was really. I just was like, I don't want. I don't want people to think that I'm making an excuse for what happened, because that's a that is a real. That's a horrible thing to have, is somebody to think that you're excusing your behavior. And I don't. There is no excuse for it, you know, however, there is an explanation that I think if we can get. If we can just get honest with, like, how do these things happen? They're not. They're not random. It was my point. It's like, no, there's a whole context there. Right.
- [51:40]
Interviewer
So, yeah, understanding is not condoning.
- [51:43]
Shaka Senghor
Right, exactly. You know, but in this culture now, it's almost like if you explain, hey, here's all the things that happen, then it's like, you're excused. I'm like, I can never excuse taking somebody else's life. Like, you know, that should have never happened. And it's one of the things I wish. If I can change anything about my life, you know, it would definitely be all of those things that I've talked about. But that day, I was DJing a party around the corner, and while I was DJing a party, somebody got shot in front of the party. And so we hear all these gunshots go off, and everybody's scrambling, everybody's running, Everybody's. You know, so I'm packing up all the stuff. I'm like, we got to get out of here. And we come out to the front. There's a guy laid out. He didn't Got shot. You know, ambulance police coming. So we. We leave. We. We end up. I ended up leaving equipment there, walking with a group of, you know, friends. So it was me, my girlfriend, her cousins, motherfriends. We're literally walking, and then a truck pulls up with these young guys. Now, we don't. We don't know, like, who or what the shooting was about yet. And so we're. I got a pistol on me. So I'm instantly like, who is. These guys pulling up end up being some other guys from the neighborhood. And they're like, man, Derek just shot. That was Derek who shot the guy in front of us. So Derek was a friend of mine, and basically some guys tried to jump him. He pulled out a gun, he shot him, et cetera. So now we're like, hyper vigilant of, like, all right, is it beef on is or. You know, everybody know Derek is always over here with us. So. So nobody knows where Derek is at. Nobody knows who these guys are. He got into a beef with who we shot. And so when I. When I get back to my house, like, all of that has just happened. Like, Lily, it's not even 20 minutes before a car pulls up and they want to do a drug transaction and I'm like, not doing the drug transactions. It's hot over here. It's all this, all this stuff I'm on, I'm on, I'm on that energy, you know. And that led to an argument that escalated. And as the argument escalated, I ended up firing what turned out to be four shots that tragically caused the man's death. And you know, it's is there's a moment in that story I always think about where I turned to walk away and I'm like, if I'd have just took one more step.
- [54:15]
Interviewer
Because you did turn to walk away.
- [54:17]
Shaka Senghor
I did, but then I turned back around and fired those shots. And you know, it's tough to, you know, even at this stage of my life, it's like the other part of my life is way more instant in my past. But I know how important it is for people to understand the context and the contours of these stories. It's the only way you can really deal with, with gun violence in a real way is you got to get to the real stories, you got to get to the truth. And you know, sadly, it takes, you know, some of us who have been, who have accomplished a lot and who have overcome so many different things that now people will actually listen to us. They wouldn't listen to us when we were going through it though, you know, but they'll listen. Now. This is some wisdom, but it's the only reason that I even talk about it. And you know, I'm getting to a point where I'm like, I don't. I think I feel like I put enough of that out in the world for people to kind of dissect it and figure it out. But I just see these kids who are hurt, you know, and these kids who are navigating something that unless you've been through it, you can't understand it, you know, you can't understand why 13 year old, 14 year old, you know, kid will carry a gun every day. You can't. Unless you've been in their shoes, you know, and you ask anybody who gets shot and doesn't get therapy, safety is what you want, you know, and sometimes that safety is like if I got the gun in my hand, you know, and it's tough. Like it's, it's a, it's a tough thing to like, you know, it's like that in a matter of seconds, somebody can attempt to take your life.
- [55:56]
Interviewer
Or you can, yeah.
- [55:58]
Shaka Senghor
Or you can take somebody else's life, you know, and, and when you're living in that and you don't have language for it, you know, you don't have spaces to talk about it, you know, it takes people who have been through it to be able to say, listen, what you're, what you're experiencing is, is your feelings are real. Those thoughts you're having, those are your real thoughts, even though they're based on something that no longer exists, you know.
- [56:26]
Interviewer
So how do you. I know you've told the story many times about that night.
- [56:31]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah.
- [56:32]
Interviewer
How do you feel still when you tell that story?
- [56:36]
Shaka Senghor
It's, it's far and few in between when I tell it in detail. So, you know, sitting here now is. Sometimes it's like, it's a little, it's like angry, you know, it's anger there. You know, it's like, man, that didn't, that didn't have my life did not have to become a life that caused that much devastation and harm, you know, like that didn't have to happen. Like there could have been something that could have changed that, you know, there was, could have just been enough. Care to say, look, man, you know, you should see somebody before you leave this hospital, you know, now, you know, I have friends who do this kind of work where they actually, you know, they're gunshot victims and they go. And they're the first people that people talk to after they've been shot. Somebody who actually understands like all the things you're going to go through in your mind. So sometimes I'm angry. I'm just angry at the systems that were in play. You know, I think about, you know, my childhood. This can be difficult now. You know, me and my mom, we have a good relationship. And you know, sometimes you started, I started to tell those stories. It's like those old feelings come back of like, man, you know, what could my life had have been without all the pain? You know, I was thinking about this, I was thinking about this recently. I was like, you know, I haven't, I haven't. I haven't felt a pain free life since I probably was like a kid, you know, I'm 54 years old. You know, it's just been pain, a painful life. And you know, even in these triumphal moments there is like, you know, the pain is still there. You know, the pain of seeing the devastation of my community, the pain of the harms I've caused, you know, the stories that, you know, I tell to help other people, you know, like that it's 54 years. I'm 54 years old.
- [58:36]
Interviewer
You know, what do you do now to deal with that pain? And I know we'll get to your present.
- [58:41]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah.
- [58:41]
Interviewer
What you're doing. But just personally, on a personal level, what do you do?
- [58:45]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, writing has been my probably superpower or super medicine, so to speak. You know, is writing through the feelings and just like, writing through the isolated moments, you know, caring for others, you know, mentoring and like, really, you know, trusting that the work that I do makes a difference in some young person's life and that prevents them from, like, going down that path. You know, the work that I've done to make sure that policymakers and decision makers, they see, like, listen, we can. We gotta. We have to have the will to fix it, but we can fix it, you know, so that that ability to pour into other people is a healing, you know, part of my journey. And it's like, I'm most happy when I'm, like, writing, creating, and, you know, spending time with good people.
- [59:37]
Interviewer
Is there a part of you, when you talk about your suffering? And you. Obviously, so much of your suffering led to. To what happened that. That night, but is there a part of you that feels that. That in a way, talking about your suffering is taking away from the suffering of the people or the loved ones of those who. That. The guy, the man who died that night. Do you know what I mean?
- [60:06]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, absolutely. No, I've definitely had those moments where I'm like, you know, I think a lot about, like, how I even approach the story, you know, and, you know, for many years, it was something I'm like, I don't know, necessarily want to talk about, you know, I never want to cause anybody, you know, repeated harm. And, you know, there's a reality of when I think about the kids who. Who. Whose life I help, you know, the many kids that reach out to me from. I mean, literally everywhere you can think of across the world. You know, I was just in St. Martin's in a prison in St. Martin's talking to men across the world. That is more important than any pain or, you know, difficulty that I experience. And, you know, it's. It's. It's tough, you know, tough, tough. Change requires just. You got to get in the trenches with it, you know, and it's just this. It's not comfortable at times, you know.
- [61:10]
Interviewer
Right. Have you been in touch with the family?
- [61:13]
Shaka Senghor
I have. I've been sued by the family.
- [61:15]
Interviewer
You've been sued by them?
- [61:16]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah.
- [61:16]
Interviewer
For telling the story or.
- [61:17]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, for writing a story, really? Yeah. And, you know, I navigated the lawsuit, and the judge was like, he has a right to tell his side of the story. But what, what actually happened is that, you know, I. So I originally self published right in my wrongs, and the book had been out for three years, and when it. When it became an official, you know, big publisher put it out, I did that interview with Oprah, and the family saw that interview, and they decided to sue me in that moment because, you know, if you're on Oprah, the assumption is that you're making a lot of money and, you know, it's a big thing. And it was. It was heartbreaking because I had talked to one of the family members who, I won't say which one, like, before the lawsuit, and they said to me that they were proud of the work I was doing with kids in Detroit at the time. At the time, I had two high schools in Detroit that I mentored at when I did the Oprah interview. On the interview, you'll see we're actually at the school where I mentor at and sort of my first. My first interaction with them. And just contextually, like, when you commit a crime in Michigan, I don't know how it is everywhere else, but you can't reach out to the family of the victims. Only way you can communicate with them is if they reach out to you. And so during my incarceration, a woman reached out to me and said that she was the godmother of the man whose life I was responsible for taking. And so I corresponded with her for years. And she was like, hey, I forgive you, I love you, et cetera. Get out of prison. I'm just doing work in my community, you know, and I write this book. And so, you know, when it, when it, when it all happened, we had already talked. We had had a real. What I thought was a real conversation was like, hey, you know, I'm just trying to help prevent these other kids from making these type of decisions, et cetera. And then probably within a month or two, I get a notice that I'm being sued. And that was. It was, you know, it was, it was. I had this duality of, like, feelings of, like, I got it. But then there was, like, in addition to being sued, there was just like this relentless, like, social media campaign of like, you know, the tax. And I mean, this is what it is, and I definitely don't want any. I don't need anybody to feel sorry for me or to even care, like, what the thing is. Like, I get it. Like, I, you Know, cause harm, but contextually, that's what. What that looked like. And then after. After the lawsuit, that same person, her and I talked again. And we talk every. Every now and then she'll pop up and just be like, you know, hey, I was thinking about this, or, you know, and I just. I think after our last call, I was like, I don't think I'm gonna take her calls anymore. Like, I serve my time. I'm doing the work that I can do, and I can't. I can never, you know, bring that life back. I can't. It's nothing I'll ever be able to do to. To fix that. And so I just had to make peace with it.
- [64:44]
Interviewer
Right, you were on the run after that, right? For a couple of days. But then the police found you immediately.
- [64:49]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah.
- [64:49]
Interviewer
And I. Was it difficult for them to find you? And then you were sentenced. How much. How much time were you sentenced to initially?
- [64:56]
Shaka Senghor
So a total of 17 to 40 years in prison. So 15 to 40 for second degree homicide and two years for felony firearm.
- [65:06]
Interviewer
Were your parents there during the trial?
- [65:09]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, they were there. Through the.
- [65:12]
Interviewer
Or the sentencing?
- [65:13]
Shaka Senghor
Through the. Through the sentencing, through some of the processes. It's. It's this wild thing. Like, honestly, some of that stuff is a blur to me. You know, I think my initial reaction with my parents was to kind of. Especially, like, when my dad was to kind of resist his desire to, like, step in, I was just like, I made the decision, I gotta figure this out. But they. They were there through some of the process, that part. And then during my incarceration, my dad was probably the. Well, not even probably. My dad was the most consistent family member to. To be there throughout my incarceration.
- [65:55]
Interviewer
Was that surprising to you, or was that something you expected?
- [65:58]
Shaka Senghor
You know, I honestly, I didn't have any expectations. You know, I think I had been so, like, I had so many scars, you know, so many emotional scars that I didn't have any expectations of, like, people.
- [66:17]
Interviewer
And you weren't counting on anyone to be there for you, I guess.
- [66:20]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah. Because I'm like, I found myself in so many.
- [66:23]
Interviewer
Right.
- [66:23]
Shaka Senghor
Situations where I had to get myself out of it. You know, I was like, kind of used to, like, all right, I gotta go it alone, and I'll just figure it out. And, you know, but my dad, he was just like, I mean, I get it now. Cause, like, I'm a. I'm a present dad. I go, I wasn't present with my oldest son because he was born after I went to prison, but I get it now. Like, I can't imagine the world. I wouldn't be there for him. For my son. Yeah.
- [66:48]
Interviewer
Did you realize. I'm sorry, to bring that spec to that night again, but did you realize immediately that you had killed him?
- [66:55]
Shaka Senghor
I think a part of me did. I think there was a part of me that just knew it. I think there was a part of me that. That didn't want to accept it, but I, I. It was. It was a. I knew it was bad. I just knew it was bad.
- [67:13]
Interviewer
You knew what that meant for you, too?
- [67:16]
Shaka Senghor
I didn't know what it meant for me. I don't. I don't. I didn't even have the. You know, it's this. It's this thing that's like, I really. If I don't get anything else across to people who watch the show, I really want them to understand how the mind of a kid works when there's high levels of trauma. Nothing rational. You're not thinking anything rational as a kid. And I think, I think specifically when it comes to, like, black boys in America, like, we want them to have. We want them to know it all when it comes to them getting in trouble. But you're literally a kid. Like, you're just not. You're not thinking about. I mean, at 17, you can't even think two hours down the line, let alone, like, real consequences. Your brain just even need to develop enough to. I knew I was in trouble. I didn't know what trouble meant.
- [68:13]
Interviewer
Right.
- [68:13]
Shaka Senghor
You know, I didn't know. I literally thought I could run away from it. I just thought I could run away. I just. I think it's so important for. If we're. If we're ever going to solve some of these things, you know, whether it's the kid who shoots up the school, whether it's the kid who shoots up the neighborhood, like, something is happening that's real with these kids. Like, their. Their trauma is real. Their. Their hurt, their pain, their sense of being isolated. Like, all those things are real. And there's no. We can't apply adult logic to kids. No matter how tall they are, no matter how serious. The thing is, they got themselves caught in it. Don't stop them from being kids.
- [68:55]
Interviewer
Right.
- [68:56]
Shaka Senghor
You know, and there's a moment where all you just revert back to being a kid. And that was me. I was just like, I just want to run. I want to run.
- [69:06]
Interviewer
Right.
- [69:06]
Shaka Senghor
I want to deal with this.
- [69:07]
Interviewer
Yeah. I think the initial instinct immediately, if you murdered somebody or, you know, is it. You should this person should just, you know, go to prison for the rest of her life or go on death row, you know, And I think that sort of judgment has never helped anyone. And if you really want to prevent violence, you really truly have to try to understand what leads to that. To that violence. And I think that there's a lack of will sometimes because people think that that's being soft on crime or. Or that that's being weak. If you try to understand, or if you give people the grace to try to understand where they came from. Right. That they're. They're giving more than they respect and they're. They're. Than you should. Than. Than. Than they're owed.
- [69:53]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, I think that's.
- [69:54]
Interviewer
Than they deserve.
- [69:55]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, I guess. I think. I mean, we live in such a punitive society, right. I think the problem with. With America is that we're just. We're intellectually lazy. You know, we don't want to. We don't want to call things like. Like, you just think about this, right? So the level of gun violence in the inner city is unbelievable. I noticed without question that if these were young white boys who were getting killed in America, we would have had a solution already, I can guarantee you. Like, I don't even. I don't think there's one politician that could sit across from me and would not say the same thing. I think they would tell their constituents something else different, you know, that these thugs in these inner cities need to be stopped. And the reason that I know that we were treated different is I've seen the difference between what happens with crack cocaine and fentanyl.
- [70:54]
Interviewer
Yeah, I was going to mention that. Exactly.
- [70:56]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah. Like I said, I see that now we're treating addiction as what it really is. So illness. It wasn't the reality when I was growing up in the crack cocaine trade.
- [71:08]
Interviewer
Right. They saw it. People would say it was a choice, that you were doing it because you wanted.
- [71:12]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, you just want to get high. You want to do it. Yeah. So if we can't be honest about that, like, we cannot. We can't fix it. You know, we can't be honest about what happens when these kids shoot up these schools. That. That's a real thing. How do you fix it? You know, how do you fix it? Right. And so I just think we're. We're not great at being, like, honest. I think that's one of our hardest things. Like, we can't. We're just so fragile. You know, you say race and everybody just falls apart, you know, and so I just hope. I just hope people really understand that these, you know, these are kids in these. In this world. It doesn't. Again, it doesn't excuse the behavior, but it actually helps us start to thinking, like, what are the real solutions?
- [71:57]
Interviewer
Yes, exactly, exactly. It doesn't, excuse me, accuse the behavior, but it might prevent more violence if you understand where it's coming from.
- [72:07]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, yeah. And you just get to put the support in place for people. Like. Like most adults couldn't deal with the things that I dealt with as a child. Like, I promise you, like, that is. That would be very hard for an adult to reconcile a lot of the things that I've had to reconcile on my own as a child, you know, so you think about what these kids are navigating. This is very different world.
- [72:29]
Interviewer
Right?
- [72:30]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah.
- [72:31]
Interviewer
And then, okay, so then you were sentenced, you go into prison. What was that like?
- [72:37]
Shaka Senghor
I went into prison. I was very rebellious early on. I got in all type of trouble. I was just this hurt, angry kid. And I went in rebelling, got into trouble. I tried to escape county jail, got caught. We ended up not getting another case because nobody would snitch. But somebody snitched on us. But when they got all of the guys who actually did it, they couldn't prove it. And so none of us was willing to, like, tell. It was the most ridiculous. I thought it was a well thought out escape plot until I got out. When I got out of prison, I saw actually how far we really were up. I was like, oh, we definitely was gonna be dead. I would have probably been dead. Cause I was going out first.
- [73:30]
Interviewer
Wait, were you supposed to jump from a window or was supposed to, yeah,
- [73:32]
Shaka Senghor
but we were supposed to rappel down. Rappel down.
- [73:35]
Interviewer
So with, like, prison sheets?
- [73:37]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, yeah. So what happened was we was in the county jail, and every time they would bring sheets, we would always just get extras. We would work. We worked this for, like, weeks. We was just like gathering all these sheets. And this guy, he had smuggled like a pole like, like probably about this long. And we had went up to the rec center. This old building, stuff falling apart. Somehow he steals this pole. He had this burnt brain idea that he could just hit a police in the head, take the uniform and he'll let us out, and we'll all just like walk out with him. I'm like, dude, that's not gonna work. I'm like, but what if we take the pole and just like bust the glass out and bend the beam and we take all. All these sheets, we tie them up, we wet them and then we just repel down out this. Out this window. And so we put together our plot. We timed it, you know, the perfect night to do it a Sunday. The officers, they're going to make that last round. We knew how to get out of the cells. You just put like, you tie a knot in the sheet, slip that under the door, pull up into the door jamb, and if you rock it, eventually it pops.
- [74:39]
Interviewer
Wow.
- [74:40]
Shaka Senghor
And then, and then you're like out in the main. The day room. So that's what we did. We got out and we like started punching this window out and we were like getting through the. The window. We had started working on bending the beam. What we didn't realize is that that thing had reinforced beams inside it.
- [74:58]
Interviewer
Oh.
- [74:58]
Shaka Senghor
So it was like lily impossible to like really bend. But while we were doing it, you know, we, we thought we were making some way. Actually we were. Didn't really, didn't. The encasing. And so I'm like. I remember like trying to get out and then all of a sudden there was a spotlight up on the window and a lady like on a bullhorn like, what are you doing? Blah, blah, you know, and so we didn't even, we didn't even think that. Oh, in the jail, they do a perimeter check in the car every night to make sure, like we're just not, we're not even thinking at all, Right. And so basically we all run back in ourselves. We, you know, and it took them a while to figure out which floor exactly which floor we're on because they're. They're coming from downstairs and all they can see is like, okay, they know it's up there, but they don't really know what cell block. When they get to the cell block, they open the doors and they're not, they're not messing around. They're snatching us out of bed, slamming us up on walls and blah, blah. But what ended up happening is it was glass all over the floor from us breaking the window in there. Rushed to like pull us all out. Now everybody has glass on their shoes, so all their evidence is like contaminated. But we believe this one guy who was supposed to went with us that didn't go was a person who told her. They literally got all of us who were part of the crew except for him. And so we was like, oh, he's the one turning us in. But they ended up putting us in solitary for like, you know, a couple of weeks. I was down there for probably two weeks, but I was going Back and forth to court to get sentenced. And then I went upstate to court. So I came to prison with already, like, this horrible reputation of, like, escaping fights. And then I got in there and I was just, like, I was just so rebellious, you know, I accumulated 30, about 36 misconducts for what my first five years. Everything. Drug trafficking, dangerous contraband, sword on inmate. I mean, you name it all.
- [76:57]
Interviewer
I've always been fascinated by the contraband in prison. How did you get the drugs, incidentally, to come into prison? Was it the COs, the correctional officers?
- [77:03]
Shaka Senghor
Sometimes family members, different people on visits?
- [77:07]
Interviewer
What kind. What kind of. What were you selling?
- [77:09]
Shaka Senghor
We just. Weed was my thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, weed was your thing.
- [77:12]
Interviewer
But there was other stuff. There was crack and heroin and all that stuff.
- [77:15]
Shaka Senghor
Anything that you get on the streets, you get in prison, right? Yeah. And so, I mean, all the pipelines, just, you know, that stuff comes through.
- [77:23]
Interviewer
And what did you do with the money that you were making in there?
- [77:26]
Shaka Senghor
Oh, sometimes I would send money home, but it was the means by which I took care of myself, myself. So I would, you know, buy whatever I needed to, to make it through my time. Commissary, stamps, you know, whatever favors you needed to get something fixed. It's like always accumulating cash. Sometime we would do. I would do, like, money transfer. Like, I've accumulated enough money, then your people send me. So, like, say you say you want a gambling table and you got, you know, you down 100. You need a hundred dollars.
- [77:53]
Interviewer
Oh, right, I got you.
- [77:54]
Shaka Senghor
I'll give you a hundred dollars. Yeah, I'm the bank. And then your family sends me 75 directly to my account. So I learned a lot about. So it's kind of like when I was in the streets hustling, I learned some very fundamentals about business. So learn how to market, promote, build relationships. Like, I'm masterful at networking. I learned all that in the streets. I learned how to run business in prison. I learned cash flow. I learned, you know, inventory in a whole different way in prison from hustling on a prison yard. And it was. Yeah, it was like all these different transfers. And, you know, how I would run the cell blocks?
- [78:34]
Interviewer
You know, I always say that I've met some of the most entrepreneurial people inside these black markets that most of the time, if they would have been given a chance at actually working in the legal economy, they would be like CEOs and CFOs and whatnot.
- [78:46]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, yeah. And it's, It's. It's definitely, you know, I think that, you know, I would tell people that scenario, like, because that is the narrative is, like, most guys who hustle in the streets could make it in corporate. I don't believe that because, like, not everybody is a great hustler. Like, not everybody, like, has like the higher level acumen of, like, how do you run a team, how do you manage people, how do you direct? Like, those are very. I would say that's a minority. I will say most people who come from the streets probably have great intuition as salespeople. So I think. I think most guys who ever hustled in the street, they'll beat any sales team you put up against. Like, it's not even. It wouldn't even be close.
- [79:30]
Interviewer
So you were making actual good money?
- [79:32]
Shaka Senghor
Oh, yeah, yeah, I was great. I was like, I was the ultimate hustler in prison. I had a sale for everything. Like, it's like.
- [79:38]
Interviewer
Were you super respected inside?
- [79:39]
Shaka Senghor
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
- [79:41]
Interviewer
And then what led to the solitary?
- [79:44]
Shaka Senghor
So I was there three different times. The longest time was four and a half years. That was a result of me and this officer getting into a conflict. And it escalated to me beating him up after he put his hands on me. And I ended up getting an additional two years and four and a half years in solitary. And at that time, like, I was. I was in. I got into a lot of beefs with the administration. I was very influential inside. I was an organizer. You know, whenever there was like, abuses on the yard between the officers and us, like, I would organize the men.
- [80:21]
Interviewer
At what point during your solitary confinement did things start to change for you?
- [80:25]
Shaka Senghor
You know, there's a. There's a thing about change. When I. When I look back on my journey inside, like, one, I was really lucky. I was lucky to be literate. Like, it's one of the greatest gifts that I had in my possession. And it's literally the luck. I think some people can be born into a lucky zip code. A lucky family might be lucky to be born, you know, where you eventually grow up and be 6, 8 and become LeBron. My luck literally was that I was literate, you know, And I met these guys early in my incarceration that gave me books. They guided me. They were very strategic. We would get into all these dust ups. They was trying to get me on the right path. I'm like, I don't want to hear that. But they gave me books and they got me to reading. And so the one consistent thing I did was read from probably like year two all the way through. And so When I was in solitary, I was reading a lot of philosophy and I was having these tough questions. I got a letter from my son. His mom had told him while I was in prison. That was devastating. Cuz I couldn't call him. I couldn't see how she said it. And he.
- [81:34]
Interviewer
She told him that you had killed somebody.
- [81:36]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, yeah. He literally wrote me this letter like, dad, my mama told me you in prison for murder. And I'm like, that's from a dad. That was like devastating to, to read that, you know? And.
- [81:47]
Interviewer
And he told you something else, right? He asked you?
- [81:50]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, he was like, jesus, watch what you do, dad. Don't kill again. And like that. Just reading those words from a kid was like the most heartbreaking thing ever. Like, all the prison toughness, all the street savvy, like all of that went away. It was like, man, I literally. I left this little boy out here to see me as a monster, you know, and like, I owe him a dad, you know? And at that time, I was reading a lot of philosophy. I was reading, you know, Plato's Republican, and I think it was in Plato's Republic, it was the apology. And Socrates said, the unexamined life isn't worth living. And I was like, wow, like, what does it mean to examine one's life? And I, I kind of mold that question, like, over and over, like, what does that, what does that mean? Like, it struck me like, that deeply of, like, the unexamined life isn't worth living. And like, I didn't feel like my life was worth living. I'm like, I'm in a prison cell, you know, I wanted to be an artist, wanted to be a doctor, like, how did I get here? You know, like, this does not feel like a life worth living, you know? And so I started trying to figure out, okay, how do I, how do I do this? You know? And that's when I was just like, okay, how did I get here? And I started writing down all the things and like, it was devastating to like, see how much trauma I had experienced, you know, sexual abuse, attempted molestation, physical violence in the home, gun violence, witness to violence. Like, it was unbelievable. And I'm writing this stuff down and I'm like, okay, what role did I play in it? You know, what role did what, what was it about me? And I started realizing that I had bought into this narrative that my life can only have one or two outcomes, which was dead or in prison. I'm like, that's it. And so when I started thinking about that narrative I was like, I'm looking at. I'm like, oh, here's how I got to that narrative. I was getting beat since I was a kid. I was getting these words beat into me since I was a kid. I was being shown that the world don't care about little boys like me. And so I started to believe that and I started to live my life like that. And so as I was doing that, I started to reassign a responsibility to like, I didn't shoot myself. There was somebody who did that, they gotta. They gotta take that responsibility. I did shoot these people. I have to own that. You know, the abuses that I experienced as a kid, like, that wasn't on me, you know what I'm saying? But the harm I've caused, that's my responsibility. So I had to work on those things. And like, once I started doing that, I realized I had never finished anything in my life. I started a lot of things. You know, I wanted to be an artist. I wanted to be a doctor. Almost went to the military, I went to Job Corps, got kicked out. And I was like, you got to finish something if you're going to turn your life around, you have to complete one thing. And that's when I was like, write a book. And I told myself to write a book, and I didn't know how to write a book. I read a lot of books, but I was like, if you can write a book in 30 days, you can turn your life around. Around. But if you don't, you're definitely going to die in here. Like, you're going to die. It's not even. It's not even a doubt in my mind that if you don't finish this book, you are going to die. And so I wrote this book and it was mind blowing to me. Like, I completed something. Like, I held it in my hand like, yo, you finished this? It's like 300 pages, handwritten. There's no real pen like that. It's just a flimsy little solitary confinement pen. I rolled it up in paper like I was rolling a joint. I had rolled up the joints before. And I wrote like you can see it. If you look at some of my original writing. Sometimes it's very vertical because I'm like sitting at a desk writing. Sometimes it's slanted because when the lights go off in the cell, it's only a little sliver light. And I have to write like this because I. My hands would cast a shadow. I did that for 30 days straight until I finished that book. Yeah, and then after I finished it, I was like, a book isn't a book until somebody reads it. And I got on the floor myself and was like, yo, somebody want to read this book? And the guy was like, don't nobody want to read that. This ain't Oprah. And I was like, damn, I'm trying to do something good, and this guy's shooting me down. So now I want to get into a dust up with him, but I'm in solitary confinement. And I had to sit with that, like, when he said that, and I was like, what do you want to happen with your writing? You know, what do you want to happen? And I started writing down the most ridiculous goals possible for myself. If I'm gonna take this thing serious, what do I want to happen? And I just started journaling. You know, I want to be a New York Times bestselling author. I want kids in my neighborhood to read my books. I want Oprah to one day read my books. I want to sell books out of the trunk, like these guys selling CDs until I make it. I want to write across every platform. I want to write for magazines. I want to write for music. I want to write tv. I want to write film. I want to write for newspapers. Here's all the things that I want to do with my writing, because I love reading, and I read everything. I read magazines. I met people in magazines that are now my friends out here. You know what I'm saying? Like, I literally. I've loved music. I'm a biggest hip hop fan ever. I feel like those are some of America's greatest authentic poets. I know a lot of them now through my writing, but I wrote all this stuff down, and that's when I began to think, like, oh, there's something to it. And so I wrote a second book, and I started a third one, and I fell into a bout of depression because I was now in this environment where I had this dream, but I'm living a nightmare. They're telling me I'm never getting out of solitary confinement. And I'm saying, wait a minute. I got this dream, though. I got this talent. Like, I can. I can do something. Yeah, I got this gift in this environment that's like, the environment is. Is. It's a nightmare, you know, like, why do I get this dream now? And so I was. I went into, like, this bout of depression where I was just like, I couldn't finish the third book I started, and. But I was still reading. You know, I'm reading all these books and the books are talking about, like, you can manifest a life for yourself, but you got to believe it more than anything. Like, more than your next breath. You got to believe in it. And I said, okay. I went back and I read my journals, and I was like. I believed I would be here. Like, I had been. That had been beat into me. So if it works in the negative, does it work in the positive? And I literally just was like, okay, what do I do? And I wrote the warden and I just said. I said, warren, listen. Like, when I came to prison, I said I was never following the rules. If you believe me to be a man of the word, all you gotta do is look at my file. I got over 36 misconducts. All I'm asking you to believe me, to be a man of my word and a positive. If you give me an opportunity, I'm gonna get out, I'm gonna write. And I'm a mentor. I want to mentor these boys who can't read and these men who can't read. And he. It's the only time the warden ever wrote me. And he was like, despite my hesitation, I believe you. You. And he started advocating for me. And it still took two years before they let me out. And I got out and I typed those books up and I bought this book on self publishing. At first, I was sending, like, all these letters out to these publishers. Any book I would read that I like, I would look up the publisher in the back. I would pay these guys like ramen noodles and soaps and be like, yo, go print this 300 pages out. And then I would hustle these stamps and I would just send it to, like, Random. Random publishers, Penguin, Random House, all the urban book publishers, you name it. I was just sending out manuscripts with query letters that I done looked up. How do you write a query letter? I had never even heard of that word. Oh, you just say, here's what the book is about, and you send it to people. I never heard from these people. Like, nobody wrote me back. I wrote to magazines. I, you know, I started getting my writing published in, like, college newspapers, but nobody would write me back. And then one day I was just like. I came across an article and it talked about this guy's self help publishing, self publishing, help book. And I ordered a book and I devoured that thing. I just read it from COVID to cover, like over and over. And he was like, okay, you can self publish. All you need to do is do this, and you need to do that. And I was like, okay, I don't have a. I don't have a Word document, but I can type it up and I can send it out, and I can save money in here, and I can, like, figure it out. And I published my first book from prison in 2008. 2008. And then they sued. They sued me right after I published it. No, the prison.
- [91:35]
Interviewer
Oh, the prison.
- [91:36]
Shaka Senghor
The prison sued me for the cost of my incarceration. They thought I had got a book
- [91:40]
Interviewer
deal, and they wanted the money.
- [91:42]
Shaka Senghor
And they wanted the money, so they sued me.
- [91:44]
Interviewer
Was the warden involved in that?
- [91:45]
Shaka Senghor
No, this was. This was the male person. The.
- [91:49]
Interviewer
Who sued you?
- [91:50]
Shaka Senghor
The. Where? The male person got it and sent it to the attorney general. The attorney general sued me. And so I navigated that case.
- [91:57]
Interviewer
That is so crazy. Wait, a few things I want to touch on. On what you just said. First is this idea that there's nothing more powerful than a man or a woman with a dream. Right.
- [92:08]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah.
- [92:09]
Interviewer
And how transformative that can be.
- [92:10]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah.
- [92:11]
Interviewer
And then you got very emotional talking about all this there, and you made me emotional as well. And I wanted to just, if you don't mind, walk me through what part of that story. Obviously, there was the depression. There's also that beautiful moment where suddenly somebody believes in you. Right. And there, I think there. That's always, to me, what gets me in every story. The. Yeah. The somebody out there who's willing to take that extra step to. To try to help somebody that they believe. In your case, it was the warden and the power that that has. Right. Can you. Yeah. Talk me through what. What you felt like in that moment.
- [92:50]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, it was so. It was so deep because wardens are not known for responding. And I remember when I was writing a letter, I was like, you know, I was still really learning the craft of writing and writing a compelling argument. But I remember when I was writing it, how good I was feeling as I was articulating myself, because I wasn't writing. I wasn't angry. You know, I wasn't the. That. That veil of anger, that cloud had dissipated because of the written word. And I felt empowered. And I felt like what I am saying is coming from a authentic space. The anger was never authentic. It was a mask. It was armor. It was all the things you wear to survive. What I was writing about was coming from my soul, and I was just. There was a feeling that I had just in writing it. And, like, when he wrote back, it was like. And I'm sure. I mean, I don't. I don't know this warden like, That I haven't even talked to him. A scene. I don't even know if he works for the department. I'm sure he gets. Probably got millions of kites of somebody asking to be let out. But him just responding like, it blew my mind. I was like, wow. Like, wow. Like this one. This philosophy really works because it was a very philosophical argument, but it was like, man, that came out of me. I remember my dad wrote me this letter about there being a light at the end of the tunnel.
- [94:33]
Interviewer
Right.
- [94:34]
Shaka Senghor
I just remember thinking about that. Like, man, what if the tunnel was really long? You can't even see that light. So you really need these cracks of light inside the tunnel.
- [94:43]
Interviewer
Yeah, exactly. I was going to say it's almost like a little glimmer of light. Right. A little glimmer of hope in humanity after all the years of suffering. Right.
- [94:51]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah. Because, I mean, like, this is the warden. He's saying, the worst of the worst. I was labeled the worst of the worst. And he's saying, I'm willing to put my name on you. I'm willing to put my name on you. It's not a small thing. I was in there for assault on an officer. He's willing to put his name on the line based on this letter I wrote that was like, unbelievable.
- [95:22]
Interviewer
That reminds me of something that when one of the reviews of your book, where they Talk, somebody praised it as a book that shows that we are all more than the worst thing we've ever done. Right. And that's so instrumental to your teachings. Right. And to what you represent nowadays.
- [95:44]
Shaka Senghor
Absolutely.
- [95:45]
Interviewer
And this is something that you've learned in prison too, right? By the people that you've met in there that are supposed to be the worst of the worst people, right?
- [95:51]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah. I mean, I've met. I've met some of the greatest philosophers, some of the greatest legal minds, some of the greatest therapists. You know, this greatest strategist. You know, men who come from brokenness, come from, you know, abuse. I used to run a class in prison called Houses of Healing. I stumbled on this book. It was like, hey, we should try to go through this book together as men. It was unbelievable. We start off, the first group is like four or five men, all of them left crying. These are hardened men who had. Did a lot of time. By the time I left that prison, we always had standing room only.
- [96:30]
Interviewer
Wow.
- [96:30]
Shaka Senghor
Standing room only. That men wanted to come and talk about their feelings.
- [96:34]
Interviewer
Wow.
- [96:35]
Shaka Senghor
They wanted to come and talk about the abuse and the trauma and have a space for it. And like, you know, to. To be in that environment and to know, like, somebody just saw you and was like, okay, you're not the worst of the worst. You know, you can. You can turn it around. Right.
- [96:52]
Interviewer
How amazing would it be if it wouldn't have to be upon you or these mentors in prison to do and create these programs? If it was actually the part of the prison system. Right. If they were actually creating these systems and if going to prison was actually about reform and not solely about punishment.
- [97:09]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, I mean, I. I think I would like to think, you know, some of the work that I've done alongside some of the greatest, you know, human beings that I've met on this side of prison is starting to shift that a little bit. You know, there's starting to be these cracks of. In the tunnel. You know, San Quentin, they just opened up this incredible, you know, space for people to prepare themselves for life. At the prison in Maine, the commissioner there is doing, like, unbelievable work. I mean, the farms that they have there, the men don't have to supplement their. Their, you know, diets with, you know, all this stuff that is really, you know, killing us inside there. So there's. There's people who are starting to spearhead and who have been spearheading for a long time, and just the pure facts of it, just the numbers of it. Over 90% of people will get out of prison. And that means that these people are coming back to our neighborhoods, our communities, and we get a chance to decide do we want people to come home healthy and whole, or do we want them to come home broken? And if we want them to come home broken, then we should just be courageous enough to say that we don't care. And instead, what we say is that we care so much that we're going to be tougher and harder on these people versus, like, smarter and more thoughtful about who's really coming home.
- [98:36]
Interviewer
Exactly. Couldn't. You couldn't say it better? That's exactly it.
- [98:39]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah.
- [98:39]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [98:40]
Shaka Senghor
And so, you know, there's tough things. You know, these tough things, definitely some of them were unchangeable, and I had to dig into some spaces that were just. I was lucky. You know, I was lucky to read books. Whenever I would get to, like, you know, I would get to these moments where it was so hard to move forward. And I realized this is what suicide is. When you can't move forward in your mind, when you can't get out of whatever moment you're in that is so painful that you want to end it all. It's the inability to move forward. And so for me, when I would find myself in these moments that were just so tough, I'm like, if I can get through the pain of this moment, I can come out on the other side of anything. The how of how I got there was I would just reach for a book, and it would be, you know, usually a book of somebody who had been through hard things. And just sometimes reading this, a sentence, you know, a paragraph, a page was enough to be like, okay, you can. You can do hard things. You can. You can. You can do hard things and just keep writing. Just keep writing. Like, don't stop your pen from moving forward. Journal, write books, write essays, write poetry, do whatever you can do. Just keep that PM moving forward, and it's going to keep your mind moving forward. And that. That was the differentiator for me.
- [100:07]
Interviewer
And so what was your initial success? When was your first success with your book? When did that come? Was it after you were still in prison or you.
- [100:15]
Shaka Senghor
Was it after I was saying hindsight? And this is. This may be romanticizing a little bit, but in hindsight. And the reason I say this, because I had a. I had a moment recently where I got so emotional on stage that I cried for about five minutes. I couldn't even talk. I was in Detroit, and there were about six or seven men in the audience who I served time with, and they had spent anywhere from 24 years on up to 40 years in prison. And I saw them before I went on stage. And one in particular is a young guy. He came to prison when he was 16. And when I ran into him, he had just got out of prison. And he said to me, when I met you way back then, you know, you told me that I would get out one day and I can do something meaningful in my life. And that. And that changed me. And I remember when he said that to me, I was frozen in place. I couldn't even move. And then they was like, yo, you got to come on stage. You got to get on the stage. I'll sit on stage. And interviewer, like, asked me a question, and he was. Because he saw me interact with these guys, and I just. I just was bawling, you know, and I was bawling because when I saw those guys, I thought about the guys who used to sign up to read my books when they were just on paper inside the prison, inside of prison, these guys. It was. I would have a list. I knew every cell that my book was in because all I had was these paper versions of Books. And it was a line guys would come to line up, yo, can I read that book next? You know, I had. At this time, I had wrote. I wrote four novels. And they would be dispersed all over the prisons. Just my little tattered notepads and typed on paper, and I would circulate them through the cell blocks. I would say, that was probably when I first felt like, I can do this for real. Because guys who've been reading Prison are real readers. And, I mean, they would come back and they was. They would talk about the characters and the moments and the metaphors and the similes, and I was like, I love it. Like, I. It is like the writer in me just, like, love when they would get the nuance of a plot twist or when I tricked them, and they didn't know that this thing was about to happen or that thing was about to happen, and, you know, or how this character resonated with them. And we would have these deep discussions, and that list would just grow and grow and grow. And so, like, in that moment, I'm like, I can. I can do this. I can do this.
- [103:01]
Interviewer
Can you tell the story about when you. I heard you say this when you left prison and you were still. The world had been 19 years. The world had changed so dramatically. Suddenly there were phones, cell phones that didn't exist before. And you were texting with a friend. You know what story it is?
- [103:17]
Shaka Senghor
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I was. I was texting, texting with him, and. And he was just hitting me with all these little words. I'm like, you know, it's the lol. And K. And I'm like, k. And I'm like, what the. What the heck did that mean? You know? And I'm like, f you. He. Like, what does that mean? I'm like, I finally understand because I. Like, I didn't know all these different. You know, omg and all these things. It was, like, so wild to me, like, that people talk like that. Like, when I went to prison, we had pagers and we had the big, giant brick phones, you know, so there was no texting. There was no.
- [103:53]
Interviewer
I thought it was funny. So you were. You were. The. The way I remember it.
- [103:56]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah.
- [103:57]
Interviewer
Is you were texting somebody, and they wrote back a plan and they said, k. Yeah.
- [104:01]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah.
- [104:01]
Interviewer
And you're. Who's Kay? And you're like, kay is okay.
- [104:06]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah.
- [104:07]
Interviewer
And you're like, that's great. But who's Kay? I'm fine. I'm happy. She's okay. But who's Kay?
- [104:12]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah. He literally was like, okay. He's like, no K means okay. And I was like, f you. Like, he's like, f you. Like, what do you mean? Like, finally understand. Like, like, it took us a whole dance we had to do to get there. Like, it was crazy. And it's actually funny. I literally thought about that conversation. I think it was like, just yesterday I was, like, texting my son something. I'm like, yo, this is wild. I'm, like, using all these little short abbreviations just to, like, communicate now. It's so natural.
- [104:41]
Interviewer
But, like, I feel like it's a. It's a conversation with my son nowadays still. He still says words that I'm like, what?
- [104:47]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like. I mean, I walked into a whole different world. Yeah, like, it was a whole different world. Like, it was. It was. You know, even now, you know, I'm. I'm mesmerized by, like, where we're at with technology. But I'm also a real nerd, and so I love it. Like, I'm like, I'm into. I'm into all the. The things I want to learn. I'm curious. I'm like, how does this thing work?
- [105:11]
Interviewer
Wait, can you tell me then, how you got involved with all the C Suite, as they call them, like the. The metas and the Apple and the Googles and all that?
- [105:19]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah. So. So after writing My Wrongs came out, I mean, I love the title, by the way.
- [105:24]
Interviewer
Right Wrongs is so good.
- [105:25]
Shaka Senghor
It's one of the proudest things that I. That I. I think I've done in all my writing. I've named. I literally named all of my books.
- [105:32]
Interviewer
So Good.
- [105:33]
Shaka Senghor
But that's probably my favorite title. It's just like, so good. Yeah, it was inspired actually by a rap. A rap song. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, when it. When the book came out, I mean, it caught fire. You know, we just celebrated 10 years of it being out. It's impacted.
- [105:47]
Interviewer
Congrats.
- [105:48]
Shaka Senghor
So many. Thank you. So many lives have been impacted as a result of that book. But companies were really interested in having me come speak, and I ended up meeting one of my. He's literally one of my best friends in the world now named Ben Horowitz. He's co founder of A16Z and with Mark and Visa. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Mark. So Ben is my guy. So this is like my brother. And then was getting ready to interview Oprah, and he asked Oprah question like, how do you get people to open up to the point they would cry while they're talking to you. And she was like, you know, telling the story of just, like, setting intentions and being, you know, authentically present. And she was like, oh, let me just tell you this story about this guy named Shock I just interviewed. And so she tell Ben's the story. Ben tells his wife Felicia. And Felicia looks me up and reaches out to me. I don't know who these people are. Like, literally, I'm like, I've only been out of prison for a short while. I'm not even sophisticated enough that when people say, hey, people want to meet with you at this time, I'm not even sophisticated enough to look these people up, all these people. But I'll meet with them. So me and Felisa. Felisa calls me one day, we're talking, and she was like, hey, next time you're up this way, just, you know, give us a ring and we'll let her do dinner. So I literally. I'm up there one day, and I ping Felicia, like, hey, I'm in sf. And she was like, where are you at? And I was like, I'm over here. I think it's in the Tenderloin somewhere. And she was like, what street are you on? I'm like, I'm in this street. And she was like, come outside and turn to the left. I'm gonna be walking up the street. So now I'm like, who is this crazy lady? Just, like, just howling, right? And I come out and it's Felicia and her son. And we meet and we go down to Glide Church, and I meet the founders. And it was mind blowing. Just the work they were doing. And the man who's the founder, Cecil Williams and Janice, they both since passed. I mean, some of the greatest human beings ever. How many people they've helped in their lives and their work.
- [107:53]
Interviewer
So they're venture capitalists, right? Ben. Ben.
- [107:55]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah. Yeah. Ben and Mark. Yeah.
- [107:57]
Interviewer
Ben and Mark are for people who don't know.
- [108:00]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah. So they.
- [108:01]
Interviewer
They have one of the biggest. The largest venture capital funds in the world.
- [108:05]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [108:05]
Interviewer
Billions and billions of dollars.
- [108:07]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah.
- [108:08]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [108:09]
Shaka Senghor
So. So Felicia's like, yo, we should do dinner. Meet at a restaurant. Cool. I'm like, all right. I still, again, so think about this. I go from a phone call, we're in a Tenderloin at sf. This is not like fancy schmancy anything. This is. It's really real. This is like a lot of people who are housing insecure that's being fed at this church. So that's. That's my Introduction to Felicia. I'm meeting her in that world. We go to dinner. She. Well, she reached out, come to dinner. So I'm in a car. I'm coming from SF over to, like, Silicon Valley, which is wild because, like, I'm going over this, like, dark, and I'm like, you know, my only interpretation of silicone was from, like, titties. Like, it was like Playboy magazine, like. So I don't. I'm thinking Silicon Valley is like, going to be like, we're not like the valley of titties, but kind of like all the. Just like, fancy. It's going to be crazy, but it's like all wooden and dark. And I'm just like, now in my mind, I'm like a little, you know, the Detroit part of me is like, man, who. Like, who are these people? And so as we're. As I'm going, she sends me a message. She was like, don't go to the restaurant, meet me at the house. So now it's like this tree. It's like, are you seeing like, trees? It's like really dark. It's like dark over here, you know, and then I get, you know, get to the thing and there was a gate, and then the gate opened up and I was like, holy. I was like, oh, this is. This is a whole different situation, right? And so, long story short, we ended up going to dinner and we get back from dinner and Ben's like, what are you about to get into? I'm like, I'm just about to head back to sf. And he was like, man, you want to, you know, have a drink, listen to some tunes? And me and Ben, we talked for, literally to about three in the morning. We probably talked for eight hours straight, literally about everything. About business, about culture, about management, about streets versus corporate and like all these different things. And then he went on to. He would, you know, invite me to different stuff and I'm meeting different people. And he ended up writing a book called what you do is who you are. And he features my story in there. So some of these companies started reaching out. So they was always reaching out between these two books was like, either writing my wrongs or, well, what you do is who you are. And then one day we were at dinner and one of their portfolio companies, the founder, you know, early on it was like, I think it was probably about mid stage startup at that point. Ariel Cohen's company called Navon, it was called Trip Actions at the time. Me and him met and I went and spoke at the company and they Ended up was talking about trying to reimagine their company culture. And, you know, I was like, I'm taking on clients now. So they became a client of mine, and a couple other companies became clients. Airbnb. And on and on they went. I just started. Either I was either speaking at companies or they were like clients that I was consulting for. And then the CEO one day, he just was like, man, you want to join the company? And initially I said no, because I was just leaving, like, working nonprofit Arc Anti Recidivism Coalition. And I had took a break just to run my own firm. And I didn't want to work for a company because I had never really worked where I had colleagues that were like, my equals. I was like, either running a division or I was the executive director. And I thought about it. He made an offer that made sense, and I went and ran it past a few people, and they was like, no, you should absolutely do it. And I ended up being part of the C suite team for three years. And I started as the head of dei. And then I remember speaking at the sales kickoff, and the CEO was like, yo, I need everybody on the sales team to be able to do that. And so he was like, do you want to take on a new role to train the sales team? So I went from head of DEI to head of sales and success culture was able to train one of the best sales teams in the world. And then we decided to change the name of the company. And me and the CEO, we would talk all the time during our one on ones. And I remember we had all these companies that was pitching us on changing our brand, and they was coming with, like, crazy. I mean, the things they were trying to charge us was, like, ridiculous. You know, it's like millions and millions of dollars. And one day I was just saying to see, I was like, I think we can. I think we got enough talent where we can do it ourselves. He was like, what are you saying? And I was like, well, you know, we got a great, well, development team. We got kind of all the brand identity, really. We just need to figure out all these other pieces. What is the story, blah, blah, blah. He was like, what do you think about being the VP of corporate comms? And I was like, this is crazy. And it's the one thing that
- [113:08]
Interviewer
I
- [113:08]
Shaka Senghor
would have did differently. Like, when I, you know, now that I think about it, when I thought back on it, I was like, it's probably the worst career decision I ever made.
- [113:16]
Interviewer
Why?
- [113:17]
Shaka Senghor
It was ego driven. It was just like, I'm like VP of corporate comms. I'm like, when we ipo, I want to have that role. I want to have that position, you know, and while I'm, you know, I help co lead, the change of the brand is something I'm super proud of. But it was the worst role ever for me because it was so much administrative work. It was. When an airline goes down, I got to be up at three in the morning sending out emails to thousands of clients. And it just was not what my brain is wired to do. And I knew at that point it was time for us to depart. And the CEO knew it. And it was, it was, it was, it was, it was just a great experience. I really. I should have stayed with the sales team, though. I love that role because the sales is my. These, my people. That's my. That's my tribe. It's. It's the hustlers, it's the go getters.
- [114:16]
Interviewer
But also, do you think. Was there a part of you that thought. And I think it, and I'm wrong to think it, but that, that it's taking away from what I believe should be a real purpose in life, which is impacting. Impacting people's lives and, you know, everything else that you do, which is really the prison reform side of it. Inspirational, motivational speaking. Did you feel at all that by even. Even the being on the sales team, it's great, you're making them a lot of money, but is that. Is that it seems to me that it's not a life as meaningful as the one that I've heard you speak about today.
- [114:59]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, I mean, I think it was meaningful in a different way. You know, when I was the head of dei, I was able to spend a lot of time with our legal team, and we were able to really walk through. What does a background check really mean? I was able to get people hired who had felonies.
- [115:15]
Interviewer
Right.
- [115:16]
Shaka Senghor
I was able to. Because of my high profile, I was able to signal to other companies that they should think about their hiring practices different.
- [115:23]
Interviewer
Okay, that I understand. But what about the. What about the sales team or the
- [115:26]
Shaka Senghor
marketing communication was like, it was just pure joy of like that hustle. Like, and like that is also equally important. This other part of my life that these skill sets, right, like the writer in me, like, if I can, I can do anything. Out of all the stuff that I do, like, I would just write. Like, I probably wouldn't do a lot of this other stuff. I would just, literally just write.
- [115:52]
Interviewer
But you're so good at this other stuff, you don't want to rob the world from this other stuff that you do so well.
- [115:57]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, no, I mean, it's a balance, right? Like, like now, you know, where I'm at is like, I understand, like storytelling is my heart and soul. So it's like, how do you tell stories that are meaningful while still being intentional about impact? Right. And like I, my work is always going to circle back to what happens to young people in the streets and what happens to people in prison. Sometimes it takes a different route to do it. And you know, our culture is set up in such a way where people hear you differently when you've actually had some of these things. Right. Like I can go talk to politicians about employment opportunities in a different way now because I had that opportunity.
- [116:41]
Interviewer
Yeah, for sure.
- [116:42]
Shaka Senghor
And so it, it shows up in my work in these different ways. Like when I go talk to these companies, you know, I'm talking to them about hiring practices, I'm talking to them about what real equity looks like. I'm talking to them about, hey, you actually, I'll take you inside of prison. I want you to meet some of these people and think about the opportunities that exist to hire people. So it balances itself out in this very different way. Like I, you know, one of the, Yeah, I would have my whole C suite team. Like I used to take them in the trenches. Like, yo, we're going into like the hood and we're going to work with kids who are coming out of juvenile. Now they're in the hospitality industry. And my team was up for it. They were so with it. They was like, yo, wherever you want to go, let's go. Because we know it's going to be real. And it's probably some of the most pride I've ever had in my work. That's pretty cool. So, yeah, it works itself out. But it was time for me to leave that space, get back into meaningful, impactful storytelling. Yeah, I know.
- [117:38]
Interviewer
And now you do a lot of speaking in the, at those corporations, right?
- [117:43]
Shaka Senghor
Yes, I still speak at corporations, universities. I was just at, I was actually just at Harvard last week. I was in St Martin last week with a non profit and.
- [117:56]
Interviewer
Do you like that? Do you like the speaking?
- [117:57]
Shaka Senghor
I do. It's fun. Storytelling is like, you know, you get a chance to really meet and come connect with a lot of people. And I like it.
- [118:05]
Interviewer
I do it sometimes too and I like it. But I definitely get very nervous before setting, going up on stage. Do you ever get nervous or.
- [118:14]
Shaka Senghor
I used to be so insecure yeah. Like, it's one of my greatest insecurities. I got a gap teeth, I got a big head. All the things that I was teased as a kid, like, that was like. And now you're going to have all these people like looking at me. But that was part of my healing journey, was like learning to accept all of me. And there was no bigger opportunity than doing it on stage. And like, like courage is really doing a thing despite being afraid and like finding the courage to just get on that stage. And then, you know, over time I just developed like super high level skill set. And now I train, I actually train executives on storytelling.
- [118:51]
Interviewer
Oh, good. Yeah, that's. They. They. It's a good skill to have. And it's what I said. Yeah, it's like discomfort is a catalyst of growth, right?
- [118:59]
Shaka Senghor
Absolutely.
- [119:00]
Interviewer
Every time I step on that stage, I'm like, this is uncomfortable, but I'm growing because of it. Can you do. Should we talk a little bit about your latest book? Because there's some really interesting things here. So it's called how to Be Free. Right. And one of the things you talk about is the hidden prisons, which I think is really fascinating, which is the internal, internal barriers, shame, grief, self doubt, fear, anger, Anger that trap people regardless of whether they've been ever, ever even near ourselves. We're not talking about hidden prisons if you're in prison, but hidden prisons that we all carry inside ourselves. Yeah, talk a little bit about that.
- [119:37]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah, I mean, this, this book is, is, you know, it's so interesting, like to have three books that have been mainstream published and to say, okay, well this is my favorite or this is my most important or this is the thing. And they all have different iterations of that. Right. Like I, you know, I think, you know, right my wrongs is. Is special because it's the heart and soul of my story. And then letters is just a beauty of language. You know, it's a book of letters to my sons. And it's really about world ideas and the world that they're navigating. And as a writer, the writer in me, I felt the most natural part of my writing voice as a, you know, this poet and beauty and, you know, the metaphors and similes and all the things that get me excited. But how to Be Free is. Is really like a combination of both of those, the magic of both of those. Whereas authentically me, it's the beauty of an idea that I believe to be inherently true is that as human beings we all suffer at some point. And sometimes our Suffering creates these hidden traps in these ways that we exist in the world, that we're not always constantly aware. We notice something is arrival. We're not quite sure what that thing is or why that thing is. So when you think about self doubt as a identity or insecurity or imposter syndrome, those are kind of like big ideas. But the trappings that undergirds those are these other things that typically happen early on in our life, early in childhood, in our most intimate relationships. Some of them are more universal, like grief. Grief is one that is a very difficult thing to suss out as a. As one thing, because it's many things. You know, there's the grief of life loss, but there's also the grieving of relationships and opportunities and decisions that we made that may have caused harm to ourselves and others that we haven't quite unpacked. So we suffocated, and then it ends up impacting us long term. But even navigating grief in general, not all grief is created equal. You know, if, if. If, you know, a elder in a family passes just from old age, like, that's a celebratory moment versus, like, if someone is killed. Like, my brother was murdered in July 2021. And that was a. That was a deep thing to unpack. It's like not only the grief, but also the guilt because I made somebody's family feel like that. And so that's a hidden prison that's a little bit different from, like, grief. Right. And so, you know, what I. What I've learned through all of these different hidden prisons is that there's something that all of us kind of flow in and out of. I used to think that I was angry about some of the things, but I realized there were some things that I was actually ashamed of and that led to me being angry. And so once I was able to uproot those hidden prisons, I was able to really heal. And so what I've created is a framework that really gives people these very intentional tools of, like, here's how you want to recognize it, and then here's how you create a pathway forward in spite of it and even within. I was so intentional in the design of the book. There is a part where it's like digging deeper and there's a doorway. And the doorway is sometimes we go in and out of these prisons. You know, sometime we heal and we get in our healing thing and something pulls us back and we're like, man, I thought I was out of it. And the thing is, as long as you had those tools, you can get back on the other side of it and you'll get further along and over time. And then the way that I structured the book is I started with the heavy stuff first, the hardest things first. And you'll feel, as you go through the book, you'll feel yourself getting lighter, you'll feel yourself getting freer, more optimistic. And it was. It mirrored my experience of actually being in the highest level of security in prison and working my way through the tough things until I got lower and lower my security level, and then I was free. And what I discovered writing this book was that I was incarcerated before I was ever in prison, and I was free. Free before they ever open up the doors and let me out. And I'll say that so much.
- [123:57]
Interviewer
I love. I love that.
- [123:58]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah.
- [123:59]
Interviewer
Shaka. What would you. What do you want people. What if they. What. What would you want? What do you want people to say about you when you leave this earth? Like, what's. Like if they were to describe you, how would you want them to describe you?
- [124:16]
Shaka Senghor
You know, that's a. That's such a tough thing to. I've had so many descriptors in my. In my life, you know, I've had. I've had some descriptors that's been so profoundly moving that it's almost like out of body experience. To have someone see me authentically, you know, to see my soul in a real way like, that. There's nothing like that, you know. And so I think if there was one thing I would say is that he was just true to the journey, you know, true to the journey. And, like, that's not always easy to be. But that. That's. That's the thing.
- [125:03]
Interviewer
We're going to end this. But I just want to say one more thing that I remember I wrote down in my notes, which is in your TED Talk, which has had millions of views. One of the things you say that I. So much of your story resonated with me not because I have led anything close to the life you have, but because your message is, I think, very similar to the message that I've tried to weave through my work. And one of the things, when you said in your TED Talk that you said that most people in prison came from the same abusive environments, the majority of them. And the majority of them are redeemable is this idea that the majority of them are redeemable. And it's. It's something that I say constantly, which is this idea that when people ask me, like, what have I learned from covering all these black markets around the world and the criminal underground, it's that no matter how far I travel to the edges of my. Of this. Of our society, that we can. I can still find people that are redeemable and relatable. That. That has given me enormous hope and. Yeah. Hope and humanity.
- [126:05]
Shaka Senghor
Yeah. And I like that. Redeemable and relatable. Yeah.
- [126:08]
Interviewer
And I think that is so much of the work that you do, too. And you are actually the personification of that.
- [126:16]
Shaka Senghor
That means a lot. I appreciate that.
- [126:18]
Interviewer
You are. You're a beautiful human being, and I'm so happy we got to have this conversation.
- [126:22]
Shaka Senghor
Thank you. I am as well. Great conversation.
- [126:25]
Interviewer
Thank you for coming on the Hidden Third.
- [126:28]
Shaka Senghor
Thank you very much. Having me on Hidden Third. The Hidden Third. I love it.