The American Captive Inside Venezuela's Deadliest Prison

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The American Captive Inside Venezuela's Deadliest Prison"
The Hidden Third with Mariana van Zeller | April 22, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this riveting episode, journalist Mariana van Zeller interviews James Lucky Lang, a 28-year-old American who endured detainment, torture, and psychological torment in Venezuela's infamous El Rodeo prison. Through candid storytelling and raw reflection, James takes listeners through his upbringing, world travels, the shocking arrest and abuse by Venezuelan authorities, survival in prison, and his eventual release, as well as how these harrowing experiences have shaped him. The discussion offers a rare look at the inner workings of Venezuela's repressive detention system, underground networks of political prisoners, and the human cost of authoritarian regimes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. James’s Background and Motivation to Travel

• Early Life in New York
  • James grew up in various New York City boroughs, navigating family challenges, including his mother’s addiction and subsequent move to live with his grandmother.
  • His mother, Q Lazzarus, was a singer famous for "Goodbye Horses" featured in Silence of the Lambs, but disappeared from music due to personal struggles (03:07 – 04:13).
• Drive to Travel
  • From an early age, James wanted to explore the world, combining passions like skateboarding and Muay Thai with travel (06:06 – 07:14).
• Work and Travel Funding
  • James supported his travels with intense jobs—most notably fishing in Alaska for four months, which he describes as grueling but lucrative ("I made about like 60 grand just from that boat for four months," 10:13).
  • He combined odd jobs and martial arts teaching to keep moving: "If they need a teacher, you know, I'll also teach there too" (07:14).

2. Personal Loss and Mental Health

• Loss of Both Parents
  • James’s mother died of malpractice-related sepsis; his father from years of alcoholism (15:47–21:23).
• Coping Mechanisms
  • Despite personal tragedy, James stayed resilient and focused, taking on responsibilities like finishing his mom’s documentary and traveling.

3. South American Journey & Entering Venezuela

• Route: Over several years, he traveled extensively through Central and South America (22:49–25:15).
• Perceptions of Venezuela
  • He notes widespread warnings from refugees but said: "I never got the idea that it was government down…oppression…I always thought it was…gang violence" (28:23).

4. Arrest and Accusations

• Ambiguous and Arbitrary Detention
  • On the Brazil-Venezuela border, authorities accused him of espionage based on circumstantial evidence like hiking boots and maps.
  • "They were like, oh, we think you're a spy. …I just thought, like, eyes got, you know, caught up in something" (33:05, 33:08).
• Escalation
  • Transferred between military and intelligence facilities, he was shackled and deprived of food/water, facing physical abuse and intimidation (43:48–44:49).

Quote:
"They dragged me out and…they beat me. Like, they throw me on the ground. They're stomping me out…with one of the higher ups…for good training for the guards." — James (44:49)

5. Imprisonment and Daily Life in El Rodeo

• Physical and Psychological Abuse
  • Constant beatings, chaining, verbal racist abuse, and solitary confinement created a state of agony and disorientation (44:49–48:47).
  • Guards were mostly young recruits (18–19), which James found "humiliating" (68:45).
• Interrogations & "Trial"
  • Underwent prolonged psychological torture via lie detector tests and grueling hours of questioning with political prisoners forced to serve as translators (60:25–63:22).
• Sham Legal Process
  • His "trial" amounted to a video call with a judge, court-appointed lawyer, and a noncommunicative translator; charges shifted from spy to "terrorist" based on arbitrary criteria (70:22–72:38).

Quote:
"This isn't crime and punishment. This is just imprisonment for no reason." — James (111:10)

6. Life and Solidarity Among Prisoners

• Prison Community
  • Despite the brutality, forged close bonds with fellow prisoners—Venezuelan political detainees and foreigners alike.
  • Standout moments: Teaching cellmate Valkeni Diaz how to read; solidarity against guards’ abuses; negotiating for dignity and limited resources (91:17–93:50).
• Inhumane Conditions
  • Lack of food, medical care, rampant lice/ticks, and no outdoor time underscore the system’s cruelty (74:24–87:30).

7. Prison Uprising, Regime Change, and Release

• Maduro’s Fall and the Shifting Dynamic
  • Upon word (delayed) that Maduro had been captured in a U.S.-led operation, prison staff’s attitudes shifted, and some foreigners were released (80:39–95:01).
  • Tension and hope fluctuated as misinformation spread in the prison via rumors and unreliable communication.
• Emotional Highlight
  • Despite all, the first thing James did upon release was attempt to contact the families of men still trapped inside, carving names into a bar of soap to sneak them out (97:41–109:01).

8. Reintegration, Reflection, and Philanthropy

• Reentry
  • U.S. officials dropped him in Curaçao, where he spent days crying, attempting to track down the families of fellow inmates (105:00–109:01).
• Resilience & Moving Forward
  • Despite trauma, remains keen to travel and help others: "I don't want this experience to, like, change the way I view the world" (114:43).
  • Participates in a robust U.S. hostage reintegration program, receiving therapy for nerve damage and psychological aftereffects (119:16–120:31).

Quote:
"If I can help out and get these guys' stories out there, you know…especially like being American…nobody's doing that for the Venezuelan guys." — James (109:22)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Adapting:
  "You’ve got to adapt. Because what else am I going to do?" — James (59:11)

• On Human Rights Abuse:
  "Here in Venezuela, we don't have discrimination... we take care of our human rights... we don't even have racism here in Venezuela." — Guard (46:49), then promptly permits racial slurs.

• On Resilience:
  "If anybody tells you they've been to prison, weren't crying, they're lying." — James (88:41)

• On Getting Out:
  "You don’t know you’re going to get out of there till you get out of there." — James (101:03)

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Timeline / Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:07 – 05:15 — Family background; mother’s music career, disappearance, and death
• 06:12 – 10:42 — Travel aspirations, Alaskan fishing, Muay Thai as a way to travel
• 15:47 – 21:23 — Loss of both parents; coping and resilience
• 22:48 – 25:23 — South America journey
• 28:23 – 30:05 — Crossing into Venezuela; early warnings from refugees
• 33:05 – 36:04 — Arrest; first moments in detention, initial questioning
• 44:49 – 48:47 — Beatings and torture in solitary
• 60:25 – 64:23 — Psychological torture, lie detector "tests"
• 70:22 – 72:38 — Sham trial and being charged as a "terrorist"
• 74:24 – 87:30 — Prison conditions, lack of food, infestations, prisoner solidarity and routines
• 91:17 – 93:50 — Teaching his cellmate to read, emotional moments in prison
• 97:41 – 109:01 — Release, contacting families, helping other prisoners
• 119:16 – 120:31 — Reentry program, therapy, and continuing physical/mental recovery
• 114:35 – 115:28 — Final reflections on resilience, learning, and the decision to keep traveling

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Tone and Style

James’s narrative is candid, unfiltered, and laced with irony, humor, and flashes of wonder, despite the pain. Mariana’s interviewing is empathetic, direct, and always probing for deeper insight—especially on the paradoxes of resilience, privilege, and the random cruelties of authoritarian states.

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Final Reflections

This episode is a gripping testament to one individual’s survival, the randomness of repression, and the power of human connection—even in the bleakest of places. It peels back the curtain on Venezuela’s underground system of political detention, while reminding listeners of the privilege and responsibility to tell the stories of those left behind.

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Recommended for: Anyone interested in true survival stories, international politics, underground economies, and the human condition under authoritarian regimes.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

So my guest today is James Lucky. Language. Did I pronounce it well?

[A]

James Lucky Lang. That's me. Yeah.

[B]

James Lucky Lang. James was backpacking through South America when he crossed into Venezuela and was immediately detained. He was accused of being a spy, chained, and then transferred to El Rodeo, one of the most notorious overcrowded and violent prisons in the world. For over a month, he had no idea if he was ever going to get out of life. Then just two months ago, something completely unexpected happened. It's a wild story, and I'm so happy you're here. Welcome to the Hidden Third. James.

[A]

Thank you. Good to be here.

[B]

So it's, it is a wild story, and I read it. There was an article in the New York Times that I read. It was about a few weeks ago, essentially. And as soon as I read it, I knew, I, I, I started trying to figure out how to contact you because I was. You've been to so many of the places that I love, and, and then this happened to you. So I really wanted to have you on the podcast. So, Sam, thank you again for being here.

[A]

Thank you. Thank you for bringing me here. When I got the message from you, like I said, my aunt is a huge fan of yours, so I had to come on. There was no way I wasn't coming on.

[B]

She would, she would disown you.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. You know.

[B]

Thank you. Okay, James, so you grew up in New York, right?

[A]

Born and raised, yes. In New York.

[B]

Where?

[A]

Born, Lower east side. We, my, me and my parents, we actually lived in, like, one of the oldest houses on the Lower east side. From there, went up to the Bronx, then through certain situations, ended up living with my grandma. You know, like to say, you haven't been through anything if you haven't been forced to live with your grandma? Moved back to New York, lived on Staten island for a long time, and then in college, lived in Brooklyn. So I lived all over the city.

[B]

Can I ask you what led to your living with your grandmother?

[A]

Yeah, my mom, she was going through a couple of things, and then my dad couldn't take care of me on his. On his own.

[B]

Because they were divorced or.

[A]

No, no, they were together. They were together. My mom had to go to. Go to rehab for something. And then my dad, he couldn't take care of me on his own, so he'd sent me to live with my grandma where I was taking care of.

[B]

Tell me about your mom. Like, explain to us who she was.

[A]

So she was a singer back in the 80s called Q Lazarus, and she has a song made famous from the movie Silence of the Lambs. The songs Goodbye Horses. Yeah, and. Yeah, she made that song. Was in that. Featured in that movie. Yeah, was also in, like, Philadelphia, a lot of the other Jonathan Demi movies. And then she, like, disappeared from music. She went to London, did music, and then came back. And. And in the documentary that was released about her, like, they, like, we explain it and everything about, like, why she disappeared and stuff.

[B]

Why did she disappear?

[A]

Essentially, she.

[B]

Sorry.

[A]

Yeah, it was in a relationship, and the guy had gone off and left, and she was like, where'd he go? She fell into, like, a depression and ended up starting to use drugs. And from there she ended up in rehab and stuff, and that's how, you know, she disappeared from my childhood.

[B]

Was the documentary about your mother?

[A]

Many Lives of Q Lazarus. Goodbye, Horses. The Many Lives of Q Lazarus.

[B]

So she never went back to music after that?

[A]

Never went back to music until when I was in college, she had run into this woman named Ava, who actually was. Became the director of the. Of the. Of her documentary. They had a conversation, and she was driving Uber at the time, and they had a conversation in her car. And my mom felt that she could trust Ava and told her the story. Told her the story. They became really close friends. They were probably. It was probably my mom's closest friend before my mom passed away. And I was there for part of the journey of creating the film. And then after she passed away, kind of like, became my responsibility, along with Ava, to make this film happen.

[B]

So she passed away. And when.

[A]

When this is 2022, late July of

[B]

2022, what were you doing at the time?

[A]

I was living in California.

[B]

So you and your mom were very close?

[A]

Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah.

[B]

Was there a sense that she was. Was she Sort of mourning the life she could have had, or was she over it?

[A]

No, I would say neither. It was almost like it never really existed or it existed in, like, this way where it wasn't as big as, like, a lot of, like, people, like, tell me it was. Of course, I don't know anything about it, you know.

[B]

You mean her success? You weren't. You were super.

[A]

Yeah, I wasn't even around, you know, this was before maybe, you know, five to 10 years before I was born, when she was doing all this stuff. So I had no idea of it, just from, like, I said, video games, movies, and knowing, like, that. But still to this day, I've never seen Silence the Lambs. Like, my parents, like, as a kid, they would tell me it was too scary to watch, but then I realized, like, it is a scary movie, but really they just didn't want me to, like, hear the music in the movie and, like, ask questions and stuff like that.

[B]

And her song is the main song in that movie. It became very popular.

[A]

Yeah. Because of that movie.

[B]

Yeah. When did you start sort of wanting to travel and how did that happen?

[A]

So when I was Even young, like 12, 13 years old, I always knew I wanted to travel the world, and every new thing I'd get interested in that would be like, all right, this is going to be my medium for traveling the world. Like, when I was skateboarding, I was like, all right, I'm gonna score around the world, visiting skate parks, you know. And then I think in eighth grade, like, Wolf of Wall street came out for me. And then I was like, I'm just gonna make a lot of money so I can just like, have enough money to see the whole world, you know, as I'm gonna be a big businessman, you know. Now it's not my. My lane at all, at all, you know, but eventually I got into, like, Muay Thai, and I started training, fighting and stuff. And I was like, oh, this is going to be my medium. So that, like, my. Even up till now, that's, like, my main thing. Like, I'll go to, like, a country train at a gym. If I'm lucky, I'll fight for the gym. There's no fights coming up for the gym, or they can't offer me one because, you know, they already have, like, their set group of fighters. Then, you know, I'll just train there. And then if they need a teacher, you know, I'll also teach there, too. So, um.

[B]

So, yeah, so when you're traveling, you're also working at the same time, so you can keep traveling.

[A]

Yeah, you know, I did have like, a lot of money from fishing, but by the time I reached from fishing in Alaska.

[B]

Fishing in Alaska, which I want to

[A]

go there as well.

[B]

Yeah. So you went to where you. You went to college?

[A]

Yeah, where. Yeah, I went to fashion school. I went to fit.

[B]

Oh, you did?

[A]

Yeah, I went for textiles and, and fashion business. I went first for fashion business because I really wanted to get into design. I switched over to textiles because I took a textile class while I was, you know, in business. And I was like, oh, this is definitely what I want to get into. And I loved it, you know, until

[B]

you stayed in school.

[A]

Yeah, I stayed in school, stayed in school, finished it out, graduated from the comfort of my couch playing PlayStation and drinking beer because it was the pandemic.

[B]

Oh, you know.

[A]

Yeah. So it was, it was pretty cool.

[B]

And then how. And then Alaska.

[A]

Yeah, I graduated. So my mom was. Went to Alaska, was a. She was an engineer on a salmon processing boat. She's like, really. My mom was like, really good with engines. That's why she, like, she. I think she became a bus driver. Even, like, had her own, like, bus tour company for a bit. And she used to, as a kid, she'd bring me to like, clean up the buses and all that sort of stuff. So she's always been like, good around, like, big engines, like nino Diesel engines and stuff. So she was the engineer on this boat. She told me all the stories about it, about how she, like, her and her friend went up there, she worked there for a little bit on, on the same processor, and then, you know, made good money. And I was like, oh, that could be like a really good starting point. Like, that's my jump off point to travel in the world. The only reason I went to California was because I went there in high school and I was like, oh, yeah, you know, I'll check out California afterwards. I have some money from Alaska, you know, so.

[B]

But first you went to Alaska?

[A]

Went to Alaska, yeah.

[B]

And what was that? Like, where were you in Alaska?

[A]

I fished out of Kodiak. But we fished all the way to like the border of Russia. Like the, the water obvious, not the land border, but the border of Russia all the way up to like the Arctic Circle. How many months are on a boat for crab fishing? We had to catch a million pounds. So I was out there for four months straight. It was the pandemic. So we were never allowed off the boat to like, deliver crab or anything like that in the small towns. The. We'd have to stay in the boat. And, like, people would come in, come onto the boat and like, unload it for us, and then captain will take us out. Then we'll clean up the boat while we're out at sea.

[B]

What is it like? Is it hard?

[A]

Oh, yeah, it's rough. It's rough because when you're out there, it's just like you and the seven guys, you know, you don't see anybody for. For the next four months. And you work, like, real rough. Like, you work like 20 hours a day.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And you sleep like four or five hours, wake up, do the same thing over and over again.

[B]

You guys all got along?

[A]

No. Hell no. Are you crazy? No, no, no, no. We didn't get along. I got along with two of the guys, Brian and Steve. Steve Branson. Great guy. Love him.

[B]

What about you? Bugged the other guys.

[A]

Black kid from New York, you know, coming up there and fishing, you know, that was the main thing.

[B]

How much money do it's. You people do it because you make.

[A]

It pays good. Yeah. Can I ask you how much we made? I made about like 60 grand just from that boat for four months? Yeah. Yeah. Cause crab started out at like a dollar a pound. But by the time we got back, like, crab that season had gone up to, like, $5 a pound. And then on top of that, like, I. I got a bonus as well for finishing up, cleaning up the boat. But I had to sue for that bonus. Cause they weren't going to give it to me because, you know, they were like, oh, he's already gone. Like, we're not gonna give it to him.

[B]

So. Yeah, and. And so that's. So it depends on how much crab you catch. But the 60.60k that you make, you're not. Then you're not paying for anything, right? You're like, it's.

[A]

Yeah, that's like your money. You just have to pay your taxes. Like, all the gear that you've worn for that season, like, the boat's already taken that out. All the food on the boat that's already been taken out. All the fuel for the boat that's already been taken out, you know, so it's. It's all yours.

[B]

So what did you do after Alaska? Did you like it, by the way? Was it fun?

[A]

Oh, yeah, Yeah. I. I had a great time. Like, I had a great time out there at sea. I had a great time on land, like training, getting fights and stuff, Fighting for this gym up there. It was. It was amazing.

[B]

So you just spend time at sea, then come Back on land and play and fight. Muay Thai. Fight Muay Thai.

[A]

Actually, I was. I was boxing up there. I was training a lot of Muay Thai, a lot of kickboxing. But it was really. It's so. It could be so regional a lot. The fights I got up there were boxing.

[B]

So you box as well?

[A]

Yeah, it all comes together. Like, you. I. I kind of got to get what I can get, you know?

[B]

And you were making money for this? It was actually.

[A]

I did. I did get paid for the fights up there in Alaska.

[B]

You did?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Like, how much?

[A]

Like a hundred bucks for, if you want.

[B]

It's like.

[A]

It's a. It's a hundred bucks to fight, 100 bucks to win these, like, backyard fights.

[B]

Kind of considered.

[A]

This is like, the downtown arena in Anchorage. And it's. But it's. It's gnarly, though, because you can get, like. I think they were called Thursday night fights. You could have, like, the farmer fighting, like, a guy with, like, you know, a couple pro fights, but then, like, the farmer, like, outweighs him by £100, so he just, like, clobbers him, you know?

[B]

So this is all above board, Like, I think so.

[A]

I have no idea.

[B]

That sounds kind of fun. Would people go and watch?

[A]

Yeah, people went and watched. Like, Brian, the guy I was fishing with, he went and watched me fight. A couple friends I had made while in Anchorage came to watch me fight.

[B]

Did you. Did you win a bunch of them or mostly?

[A]

I won two. Lost one. Yeah.

[B]

One. Two. Lost one.

[A]

And I had the flu. I had the flu during that fight. You know, the one you lost? Yeah, so. And I still was a good fight, though, so.

[B]

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[A]

So I started out in the Bahamas in the Caribbean, went around the Caribbean, the Bahamas.

[B]

And at. By this point you had the money that you'd made, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, from Alaska. And then I, my mom had passed away. So that like, like the life insurance from that and then had it all compiled to start this journey.

[B]

How was. Can I ask you how the path. What was you. Were you prepared? Was it expected? How was. How did you deal with the passing of your mother?

[A]

Oh, that was typical black woman in America dying, you know, doctor Malpractice. You know, my grandma had died from doctor malpractice. She had had this doctor for decades. He retired, got a new doctor, she changed. He changed her medicine and passed away like within a month. And then my mom died from doctor mishandled the wound because she went in for a broken leg while, while doing the documentary and stuff. She ended up breaking her leg. She fell down the stairs, um, and he didn't clean the wound properly. So she ended up catching sepsis underneath the wound and passed away from that. So like, yeah, so like I didn't even go back home because I didn't think my mom was in bad shape. She was like, oh, yeah, you know, broke my leg, you know, I'll be okay. You know, I was like, okay, mom. And then like I get the call from like my aunt, she's like, oh, you're, you know, you got to come back home. Your mom passed away? Yeah. So I.

[B]

Were you in Alaska?

[A]

No, I was in, I was in California at the time.

[B]

At the time?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How old was your mom?

[A]

Early 60s. 62 or 61. Yeah.

[B]

So completely unexpected.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. It just wasn't like it wasn't supposed to happen.

[B]

Did you guys sue the doctor or.

[A]

No, cuz the coroner like had put like died in natural causes and then it would have become such a, such a, A big thing. Like it wasn't, it wasn't really possible to sue it. I don't want to say like, I, I do want to say like, like they kind of like have like each other's backs when it comes to that. You know, like the corners, the corners, the doctors, you know, like the Industry in general, sort of.

[B]

So you were close to your mom?

[A]

Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And how did this affect you?

[A]

Oh, super sad. But it affected me differently than when my dad died. With my mom, it's like I took over, like, for like, the documentary and stuff like that and like, releasing her music and stuff. So it's like I'm kind of. It's kind of like she's still here sort of, you know, and everybody, like, a lot of people know. Know who she is, so, you know, always talk to people about her and stuff like that, you know, so.

[B]

So she just feels very present.

[A]

Yeah. Life, in a way, super feels like I can just like, call her up and be like, oh, you're not gonna believe all this stuff I've been going through. And, you know, doesn't really feel like she's gone.

[B]

And your dad passed away when?

[A]

Oh, that's the story right there, though. That's. He passed away back in August.

[B]

This past August. I'm so sorry.

[A]

Yeah, this past August.

[B]

So not very recent.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it was like. So when I found out I was in Patagonia, down in Patagonia, like, stuck. Like, I just left the Chilean side of the Patagonia, and I was trying to get a bus or anything to leave, but it was like the down season. It was summer, so it's like their winter. And like, there was like, no. No ins and outs, like, with public transportation. So I was like, hitchhiking to get out. It was me and my dog. And then we get towards. Are. Are you, like, familiar with the. Like. Like Patagonia like that?

[B]

I've never been to Patagonia. No. My husband has been and is constantly wanting to take me and my son there.

[A]

Yeah, I would say Chilean side. Chilean side's the beauty set.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you go farther north, like, on the Argentina side, it's really nice. But the south of Patagonia in Argentina, it's like the nicest stuff is looking over at the Chilean side. Like, it's like desert shrubs, like a foot high. But I was trying to trek out of there with my dog, and then my dog ended up eating, like, some poison. He passed away. So I had to, like, bury my dog. Where in Patagonia? In, like, a field, like in this small town called Rio Mayo.

[B]

Did you travel with your dog down there or was it.

[A]

Yeah, I didn't travel with my dog since Alaska.

[B]

No way.

[A]

I got him in Alaska. We came throughout. So he's. He's seen all the way north to. All the way south. And that's where he passed away.

[B]

What. What dog? What dog was he?

[A]

He was a husky border collie. So he had mostly husky features, but he was like the size of a border collie.

[B]

What was his name?

[A]

Okami.

[B]

So sad. So then. So then you had to bury him. Were you alone at the point?

[A]

Yeah. So we were in, like, the middle of nowhere.

[B]

You and the dog?

[A]

Yeah. So, you know, you hear things about in Latin America, like, farmers leaving out poison for, like, stray dogs to kill off, like, the population heard a lot about that in, like, Central America, Guatemala and stuff. But I was so far removed from hearing those stories that I. And I was so far removed from, like, civilization. When he ate the poison, I wasn't even thinking about it. So he ate it and, you know, he started convulsing and all that sort of stuff. And I had to, like, run with him back to the town, like the vet, to, like, try to get help for him. And they were like, oh, yeah, we can't help him. So I had to bury him. They were like, oh, yeah, well, we could throw him in, like, the trash incinerator.

[B]

What?

[A]

I was like, you're not going to throw my dog in the trash.

[B]

But did they try to actually save him or they just said, no, there's nothing we can do.

[A]

Honestly, I think. I don't think they really tried to save him. They didn't have the medicine. They were like. They were wasting so much time. I'd. I'd have to go to, like, the next town, which is like hours away by car to, like, get the right medicine from. So it was just like, he's gonna die anyway. He's gonna die. Yeah. So he passed away. Like, I was holding him. Oh, and I had to bury him. And then on my way out of there, I get like the. I get like the call. Like, I'm in a hotel. I get the call like, oh, you gotta come home. You know, your dad's dying. So now to go home to, you know, my dad and, you know, he's in the hospital and he passes away too.

[B]

I'm so sorry.

[A]

Yeah, it was rough.

[B]

Was he sick?

[A]

Yeah, just years, like, not taking care of himself, you know, old school guy stuff, you know, just drinking and, you know, alcohol and never going to his doctor's appointments. My mom would always have these doctor's appointments for him and she would have to drag him there. And then when my mom passed away, I'd set the doctor's appointments, you know, he would never go, you know, toes, like, what's the what was he like? Really smart, you know, as when we were, you know, because of the alcohol. Like, as, as a kid. Like, he could, he could be like, you know, abusive and stuff, but that kind of went away when I got bigger than him, you know, but like a really smart, really knowledgeable, really just spent all his days just reading and, and research and stuff, you know, that's how you spend his time.

[B]

He was a big drinker always.

[A]

Yeah, I think he kind of kicked it when I, when I got to college, but people would always tell me, you know, he's sneaking and stuff like that, and he was sneaking and drinking.

[B]

Were you an only, are you an only child?

[A]

So I have like, an adopted sister, sort of younger, older, who's, she's my cousin on my dad's side. But then my, my family took her in. Got it.

[B]

Was your dad proud of you?

[A]

Yeah, I'd say so, yeah. Yeah. Every, they were so proud of my sister when I was a kid because I was like, messing up in school, not doing my homework. Right. Skateboard instead. But as soon as, like, I got older, they're like, we're so proud of you, you know, I became like the golden child.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, I think so. I like to say that. Yeah.

[B]

So you obviously must see your dad a lot.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Him. Yeah. It feels like more like he's gone, you know, because there's less, you know, I don't, I don't like, log into Instagram and like, see his face, you know, so.

[B]

Yeah. And then you went back out right after did so did you back out?

[A]

I came back home, you know, took care of that and then went back out. And by then I had seen pretty much all of the Americas except for like, the, the eastern half of South America, so Brazil and the Guyanas and Venezuela. And I had to go to Paraguay too.

[B]

So you'd seen which countries had you'd seen then?

[A]

Have I seen which countries?

[B]

Yeah, I guess, yeah. Which countries have you seen?

[A]

Yeah. Started off in the Bahamas. From there, went to Haiti. No, sorry. Dominican Republic, then Haiti, then Cuba, Mexico, Guatemala, Belize. This entirety of Central America, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama, Colombia, Ecuador, and keep going.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Peru, Bolivia, Chile, Argentina.

[B]

How much time were you spending in each of these countries?

[A]

More or less, on average, at least. I, I, I like to spend. When I started, I was like, at least a month in each place, and then sometimes I didn't be in like, in a place for like, months, you know, and then like, end up being 10 months in Nicaragua and in Some places I'd like. All right. I spent so much time there. I gotta, like, catch up on my journey. So, like, two weeks here, you know?

[B]

Do you speak Spanish?

[A]

I. I can. Oh, you're gonna test me? No, I promise I can. But the only reason, like, I was. I was telling your guys, when I ended up in. In Venezuelan prison, I was in a situation I had never conceived of. So I couldn't. I didn't. I didn't have the words to help me or have the words to even explain to. It didn't matter what I said anyway. They're going to throw me in prison regardless. But I didn't have the words to explain, you know, anything. So they gave me a translator and stuff like that.

[B]

Did you. Did it? Did you? But you learned while you were traveling. Is that when you started learning completely?

[A]

While I was traveling, yeah.

[B]

And so you would stay at least a month in Nicaragua. You stayed more. 10 months.

[A]

10 months.

[B]

Why?

[A]

I got stuck, you know, spending too much money, so I had to stop, make some money. This is around the time, like, my mom's documentary was really being finished, and we were trying to create the album and stuff, so I needed, like, a home base to, like, really sit down and, like, work. But I was in Nicaragua. Had had my own gym, was teaching Muay Thai to the locals for free.

[B]

Oh, fun.

[A]

I'd charge the expats and the tourists. I was like a guide up the volcano. Have the quickest time for ascending and descending. Four hours in five minutes, but we're saying four hours flat.

[B]

Which of all the countries you went to, did you like the most? Right. People asked me all the time this question, and I actually hate that question, so I thought I'd put it on to you.

[A]

I. I don't hate the question. I'm just my favorite country, like Cuba. And it can't be that Mexico or Brazil. Those are the top three.

[B]

Why can't it be Cuba? Let's make it Cuba. It's awesome.

[A]

Oh, I mean, it can be. I've been to Cuba, too. If I can't say Cuba, I'll say Braz or Mexico.

[B]

I love Brazil and Mexico. Those are all three of my faves, too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I've spent a lot of time in both Mexico and Brazil, and I speak Portuguese as well.

[A]

Yeah, Brazil is like.

[B]

It's like my adopted country. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How did you end up then in. Had. Make your way up from Brazil and then you. Sorry. So then Patagonia, you came back and then you went back where after. After you Came back.

[A]

So after Patagonia, you came here and

[B]

then you went back to Patagonia again?

[A]

No, I. I'd gone to Brazil, and then, like, because it was cheaper, and then just went back into, like, Uruguay and Paraguay and then came back into Brazil, and then I had to come up for, like, a concert, like a benefit concert for my mom. So I just stayed in, like, the south of Brazil. And then when I flew back, I explored the Amazon, the north of Brazil, and all that sort of stuff.

[B]

And up until that point, before you cross into Venezuela, what had been the craziest thing that had happened to you?

[A]

Oh, there's too many. There's too many. Like, it depends on, like, who you ask. I've. I've. I've stayed in South Peru. I stayed in a refugee camp. And that's how I kind of got accustomed to, like, a lot of the stuff I'd see in Venezuela, because obviously a lot of the refugees were Venezuelan. So I. I talked to them about that.

[B]

You talked to them about going to Venezuela when you were still planning on.

[A]

No, I talked to them about, like, their experiences there. In Venezuela. I'd been to Haiti. So, like, Haiti is. At the time. I had gone in, like, the middle of Port au Prince. It was. It was pretty rough, pretty bad.

[B]

Gangs.

[A]

Gangs, but like, just kids, like, 14, 15, with, like, some of the most insane weaponry you'll see on the back of, like, scooters and motorcycles, you know? And then every night, it was just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Every night. Cars on fire and stuff.

[B]

Hey, everyone. So I have something really important I wanted to share with you all. For more than 20 years, I've gone to places that most people would never willingly step into. Cartel territory, scam compounds, trafficking networks. And what I've learned is that the most important stories are the hardest ones to share. Not because people don't want to watch these stories, but because corporations, advertisers, and algorithms now decide what gets made and what doesn't. The Hidden Third exists outside all of that. No network censorship, no sponsor conflicts, no compromises. And the only way to keep it that way is to build it directly with you. That's why I created the Hidden Third. Patreon Bonus episodes Behind the scenes from the fields, early access to new episodes, A direct line to me and the reporting as it happens, and much, much more. If you're still watching this right now, you're exactly who I built this for. So join [e-mail] thehidden third. The link is below. And now back to the conversation. Okay, so tell me about then crossing from Brazil to Venezuela. Did you know, did you know that it was, what, what had you been told about Venezuela at that point?

[A]

So a lot of it I've got like, you meet Venezuelans in every country you go to, you know, know, refugees and all, all the sorts. And then like, you know, I would sit there and talk with them, but I never got the, the idea that it was government down, like top down oppression. Like I always thought it was. They were suffering from like gang violence and that sort of stuff, you know. And which, which every country you go to, you know, that's the first thing they tell you, you know. You know, we're the most dangerous place in such and such like even here in the US like every, everybody like likes to tell you they're from the, the worst place on earth. You know, that's like, that's. People get a sense of pride from that because it shows that they came from something that's not a lot of people come from, you know. So I was used to those stories. So I, I was, I didn't know that they were going through such a thing with the governments like kidnapping people, you know, and stuff like that. And of course, you know, being in Baptist. Oh, you know, well, that could happen anywhere, you know. So I was like, I went in there the same way I'd gone to every other country, you know. Yeah.

[B]

And what was that? Morning. So you woke up in the morning?

[A]

So I woke up that morning, took the bus to the border town of what is it? Is it. I forget the name of the town, but on the other side of Santa Elena and I was, got, got food, know, and all that sort of stuff put in my bag and I asked a taxi guy, I was like, hey, I was like, can you bring me to the, to the immigration office? He was like, yeah, sure.

[B]

So at this point, already in Venezuela.

[A]

No, no, no, this is, this is still in Brazil. No, this is still in Brazil.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So I'm thinking that he's going to bring me to like the border. You know, he ends up bringing me to the first town in, in Venezuela, which is Santa Elena. And I'm thinking, okay, well maybe the immigration office is here. You know, you get different countries have immigration offices in different places. You know, you'll have like an immigration office in, on the frontier you'll have an immigration office in the first town, right? And across the border then you'll have an immigration and immigration office. And you know, miles down the, miles down the road, you know, So I was like, all right, maybe the immigration office is here. So I walk around the town asking. They're like, no, you have to go all the way back to the border. I'm like, okay. So, like, now I'm like, all right, let me go back to the border. But it's too late. I had to go the next morning. So I go back the next morning. There's, like, this checkpoint. And I'm like, all right, well, I went to this checkpoint yesterday. You know, it shouldn't be a problem on the back of the bike. But now I'm walking. The guy lets me go. And then the guy's sitting down at, like, this cabin. He's like, oh, no, come over here. So I go over there, you know, they take my passport, they go through my stuff, and they sit me down, they give me a cup of coffee, you know, And I'm just sitting there waiting, you know, and maybe like an hour goes by, a truck comes over because there's a military base on the side. And the guy's like, all right, well, you know, you got to come with us. You got to come to the military base. He's just a regular higher up in the military, just regular Venezuelan military. But he has two, like, masked agents with him. Those were DGCIM agents. DGC agents? What DG Seem. Dgcim, that's like their counter intelligence. Military Counterintelligence Agency that they, you know, have there.

[B]

So kind of like the FBI?

[A]

I would say probably more like, like, military counterintelligence. Maybe like CIA.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't know. Maybe CIA. So they bring me into, like, this little office. Like, it's probably like, the size of this area. We have it right here. And they sent me down, you know, they asked me about my boots. They're like, oh, those are military style boots. They're just, like, regular, you know, hiking boots, I guess, like, in some countries, like, I've seen guys, military guys, like, wear those for their boots. So I was like, dude, like, these aren't military boots. I'm just a regular guy. They're like, oh, we think you're a spy. You know, Just threw that out there very nonchalantly, you know, kind of, like, laughing. I can see, like, them laughing underneath the masks and stuff. Go through my stuff again. They. I have, like, a bunch of my friend's stuff from Suriname. She had, like, all these maps of Suriname and like, all these. All these different things. They were like, oh, why do you have these maps? I was like. I was like, those aren't even Mine. Those are my friends, you know, and they were like, oh, what are these maps for? They're, like, overlapping the maps, like, trying to find, like, hidden messages in the maps and stuff. I'm like, dude, there's nothing there, you know?

[B]

So at this point, you weren't super worried. You just thought that this is.

[A]

I just. I just thought, like, eyes got, you know, caught up in something, you know, this is the first time I've ever been searched. Like, all my travels, which, like, I was. I was thinking to myself, like, how fortunate, you know, because, like, you know, you hear stories all the time. Like, oh, you know, these. They went through my stuff. They went through my stuff. And I've never gone through that in, like, three years of travel, you know, So I was like, I'm very fortunate, you know. This is, like, the first time I've ever gone through this. So they sent me down. Don't say. Don't tell me anything for, like, hours. Night falls. They bring me deeper into the military base and put me up into, like, a barbershop. They have, like, a little mattress on the floor and stuff like that.

[B]

Like a barber shop inside the military.

[A]

Like the military barbershop where they do the haircuts and stuff. They put the. The mattress on the ground. Sit me there. I'm talking to, like, the. The older guy, like, the higher up that originally. Originally escorted me over to the military base. And he's, you know, he's telling me, like, oh, we don't have corruption here, you know, like, this is, like the great big. He's giving me all the propaganda. This is the greatest country on earth. You know, we don't break human rights here. He's telling me all this sort of stuff, you know. And then there was this woman soldier. She came over. She spoke English, and I was talking to her, and she was all, you're lucky we got you, because if the police got you, they wouldn't have, you know, given you food. And, you know, she gave me, like, this sort of stew, you know, for dinner, ate that. And I was like, well, I was like, so, what's. What's happening? Like, what are you guys going to do with me? And they were like, you know, we're gonna let you go tomorrow. So the next morning comes, you know, shooting the breeze with all the soldiers. I'm, like, one of the only Americans, like, they've probably ever seen their whole life. So everybody's coming over to, like, look at me, like, it's like the zoo or something. They escort me back into, like, that. That small office. Oh, well, outside that small office that I was in the previous day. And the two DGCIM agents who had taken. Had their masks on, like. Who had their mask on. They were like, unmasked and plain clothes. Now it's trying to pretend to be other people. But it was so obviously, like, one of the guy was, like, missing a finger. I was like, dude, you're the same guy from yesterday. Like, obviously. They put me in, like, a pickup truck and they brought me to. There's like a hangar, like a. Like a small airport for just. For bipolar planes and, you know, small planes like that. And they put me on a plane. One of the agents comes with me, and they bring me to.

[B]

Wait. And this point. At this point, what were they telling you? Like, nothing?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And when you asked the woman what they were going to do to you, she didn't say anything. She just said, like, you're happy. You're lucky it's not the police that has you, but that. She didn't say, you're under arrest or you're being detained. Nothing, Just no information.

[A]

Right. Well, she. I only seen her once or twice. You know, she wasn't really part of my situation. She was just coming over to say hi, basically.

[B]

But she was the one who spoke English, right?

[A]

She spoke English. But at this time, I'm not, like, being faced with anything, like, I don't know, like, in Spanish, you know, like, we're. I'm shooting the breeze with, like, this higher. This higher up. This guy in the military, you know. Obviously, I had a little bit of trouble when they were accused me of stuff the previous day in the office,

[B]

but where they said that you were a spy, you immediately said, no, I'm not a spy. I'm just traveling around.

[A]

Well, they said, we think you're a spy. In English, know, Like, as if they were practicing, which was so funny. Like, they were just speaking in Spanish, but they said that in English, you know, I was like, okay, they bring me to this. They put me in the bipolar plane, bring me to the town of Guyana. It's Ciudad de Guayana. And in Venezuela. In Venezuela, they take me out, and I'm like, I'm asking the guy, like, oh, where are we? And he lies to me. He says, oh, you're in Caracas. I'm like, okay. Well, these guys are lying. There's a huge sign right there that has the name of the city we're in. You know, like, for some reason, he's lying to me. And then they. They cuffed me for the first time, hands behind my back. And at the time, I had, like, blonde hair. They put me in the car. They're like, oh, you know, why is your hair like that? I was like, just something to do, you know? They bring me to the DGC office, and that's when they, like, really start questioning me. They put me in a room for, I don't know, about five minutes. And, like, I, like, moved my cuffs to, like, the front because, like, it was, like, really hurting me. And I was just like, this is just B.S. like, I'm over this. Like, I don't even know. Like, you told me I was going home today, and, like, you bring me here. Instead, they bring me to another room. They have, like, a translator, and they have a guy who spoke better English than the translator. So I don't know why the translator was there. And they had a guy dictating the conversation that didn't know how to type. So it would go. The guy who spoke English would. Would ask his question in English, then the translator would say it to me. But it's like, I already know what he's saying, you know? So I would answer the question. They recused me of being a spy. I'd say, I'm not a spy. They say, you're bullshitting us.

[B]

You.

[A]

We know you're a spy. And it's like, I'm not a spy. I'm just a regular guy, you know? They were like, am I working with any sort of counterintelligence agencies or anything like that? It's like, no, I'm not doing any of that. And the whole time they're asking these questions three or four times in a row because the guy who's dictating doesn't know how to type, so he has to keep on typing. So it was, like, very incompetent, and it was very. I was. I was more aggravated and scared. I was just like this because it was such a waste of time. I was annoyed. The guy had dictated. He moved. They brought another guy. He couldn't type. They were still trying to get this dictated up, trying to show some sort of professionalism. And it was so, so aggravating. Plus, these guys are so young. The guy who's my translator had to be, like, 18 years old. And he's just trying to show the other guys that he's, like, the man. Like. Like, he's tough. So he. Every time they'd say something, you know, in English, he'd be like, oh, wait, wait, let me translate. It's like, how are. He's speaking English. Like I know what he's saying. Yeah. You know, and even if he wasn't like, it doesn't. He speaks better English than you, so it's not like you're going to be able to translate it. I understand you, you know. And then he was getting frustrated, like sporadically. I was only there for like an hour. They sporadically bring me to the airport again, bring me to the tarmac, put me on a private plane. I look to my left, it's a family's private plane. It's like a mom, a grandma and like a kid, you know.

[B]

And, and you're in handcuffs still.

[A]

Yeah. And they commandeered me. They commandeered the, the plane and they brought me on to like be brought to Karakas actual Caracas. So it's the translator and there's like a, a DGC agent they bring me in to. And then like every time, like I look to my right to like the cockpit, they're like, don't look, don't look. They're as, as if I know how to fly the plane, you know, like they like, they really wanted me to be a spy. I was like, I'm just, I'm not a spy. You know, they, they, I think they, they just want to go home, like tell their wives, like they caught a spy, tell their higher ups they caught a spy, you know, so they can get some sort of notoriety. They bring me to the, to Caracas and then it's about 45 minutes till like a car comes pick us up. And I have to use the bathroom and I'm just like, I have to use the bathroom. Can I use the bathroom? They're like, oh, we have to use the bathroom too. I was like, all right, so can we all just go use the bathroom? But because I asked, you know, it's a problem. Like if they were to bring me to the bathroom, it'd show that they're not in control, you know. It was so, it was just so sad like to see this kid like really try to take control of the situation. This 18 year old kid, you know, and like I was like, dude, I'm just going to go use the bathroom. And like the agent was like ignoring the kid. So I use the bathroom. The agent comes in to use the bathroom too. The kid comes in, he has to use the bathroom too. And he like, you know, ag. He's so aggravated. He's like, you know, pees and he gets out. He's just like so upset that I'm not listening to Him. I'm just like, dude, like, relax. Like I'm in handcuffs. Like there's nothing I can do. He's like, you got to stand here. If I don't stand, like right there in that exact area. He's. He's angry. You know, he said, you got to listen to me. You got to listen to me.

[B]

So it's like an amateur show.

[A]

Yeah. And like, the, the agent's not even paying attention to him. You know, the agent, like the guy with the gun, like the, like the guy who actually, like, he's just, he's just like, whatever. You know, the car comes, we get in. They bring me to the DGCM headquarters. And like on the car ride, you know, I started feeling bad for him. Like, I'm sorry. Like, I was like. Because I. I get it. Like, he's just trying to.

[B]

So you start feeling bad for the 18 year old.

[A]

Yeah, I was like, he's just trying

[B]

to, you know, because you were, you were being aggressive. I mean, you were being annoyed. You were annoyed at him.

[A]

Yeah, I. I started being like, rude, like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On purpose. Like, like. So I was like, I'm sorry, you know, I feel bad for him. And then, like, we were. We started talking, all three of us. Like, I started, like, teasing him. And I was like, oh, you guys ever been to your nation's capital before? They were like, no.

[B]

I was like, they had never been to Caracas.

[A]

No, never been to Caracas. I was like, you're welcome. You guys wouldn't be here. It wasn't for me, you know. And then we get to dgc, they sit me down, the kid is like, he's like. He's like. He's like, just do what I say, dude. He's like, he's like, he's like, we're. He's like, don't worry. He's like, I got you. Yeah. It's like, okay.

[B]

So now you felt like he was on your side of pretending?

[A]

No, he, like, he's. He's not pretending. He's like, he's like trying to be like, you know, he's like, you know, you're not such a bad guy. You know, that type of thing. So I got to digic. Went through all that stuff. They took the laces out my shoes and everything like that. And then they brought me into sort of this big, big room. And if you talk to anybody that's been through any sort of process in Venezuela, police process in Venezuela or criminal process, they're going to tell you about this room or just tell you about this headquarters in general. Every person I've ever talked to has been through this place. They sit you in a corner and they make you face the wall as if you're like a child on timeout. And I thought that was so silly. Like as soon as they sat me down, I was just waiting for them to leave and like I turned the chair around. But then they brought in these guys who were like soaking wet. They had obviously just gotten out of there, out, out of the shower. And they brought them in and they're shivering because it's cold in there. They sit them down and like these are grown men. They just sit down and they face the corner shivering. And I was like this, like they're breaking these guys here. I was like, I was like, I was like, how can you just sit here and stand, stand, sit, look in the corner, you know, like, like, like why? You know, usually you spend a long time in that room, but I only spent five minutes in there. That's because normally they take you and they send you down to like the basement where like that's where pre, a lot of the Venezuelan people go. They get sent there and they stay there for maybe a month or two. And then that's when they, you know, they might get sent to Road Rodeo, you might get sent to Yarde, you might. Or, or two. Yeah. All the different prisons. After they sat me in the room, all the guys are looking in the walls and stuff. They bring me out to the hallway and they give me the blue uniform, tell me to put it on. They're still trying to make me take off my underwear, but I'm not doing it. They give me the uniform, they sent me into solitary. So it's just like a white room, maybe like 7ft by 7ft or so. Camera, camera in there. Toilets in there. And I sit there overnight. I, I what I would imagine, cuz I don't know how long I was in there for. What I would say was the next day. Like, am I right? Why am I still here? Like they told me I was going to go home basically two days ago. Why am I still here? So I start banging on the door. I'm like trying to get information. Like, no, you need to stop. Like, like stop now. I'm like you, I'm not stopping.

[B]

Like you were saying that the other day.

[A]

The guards, the guards. I was all alone, like there was no other people. So I'm banging on my door until like eventually the guards did come with one of the higher ups and they dragged me out and like, they beat. They beat me. Like, they beat me. Like, they throw me on the ground. They're stomping me out and then kicking you in front of kicking me, stomping me, punching me, like, foot in the neck. Stuff like all that. Stuff like, you heard all that. Chain me up my hands behind my back. And like shackles. It didn't. Like a. Like a rope that goes around, like, your waist that they tie. Almost like a. What do they call, like a strap that you strap the back of, like. Like gear on the back of a truck. They tie that around my waist and tie that to the. The. My. My. My cups and my change chains. Basically, yeah. And they throw him back into the cell. And then I have a conversation with the guy, the higher up. He's. He speaks English poorly, but he's. He's talking to me. He's like, he's like, we're going. He's like, I'm happy you're doing this. We're gonna do this for you. It's good training for my guys. You know, every time, you know, you get to find, like, you, you know, we're going to hit you, we're going to beat you. And then, you know, he's like. He's like. He starts talking about his time in America because he had. He had spent time like Memphis or something as a kid for some reason, and he had learned English here. He had went to school here. He was like, he's like, I understand your country. He starts talking about, like, the differences of Venezuela. He was like, here in Venezuela, we don't have discrimination. And we, we don't. We. We have. We. We take care of our human rights, and we are not breaking your human rights or anything. He's like, we don't even have racism here in Venezuela. He's like, I know I. I was in the US I know the racism that they. They do there. The things that they would call me while I was there. And then, you know, we finish the conversation and stuff, he goes away and then the, The A guard comes back and calls me nigger four times in a row. I was like, first of all, I already knew Latin America has just as much racism as, you know, the US and some parts more, you know, depending on where you are. And I was just like, I didn't even get offend. I was like, thanks for the clarification.

[B]

Also, he says, we don't break human rights here. But he just beat the out.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. With like seven or eight guards, you know.

[B]

Yeah. At this point, are you so scared.

[A]

I don't know at this point, Like, I'm. I'm still. I'm. It was such a time thing for me. Like, I was just like, I don't want to waste time here, you know, Like. Like I feel like I'm wasting time here. Like, this is because I'm not a spy, you know, Nothing's going to come back that I'm a spy. Like, they're not gonna be able to verify anything of me being a spy or anything like that or me being a terrorist or anything like that. So I was like, it's just a waste of time, you know?

[B]

And you're thinking sooner or later they're going to figure this out.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Yes.

[B]

You're just hoping it's sooner rather.

[A]

Exactly. You know, I know they're wasting my time. I just need them to realize that they're wasting my time, you know, and. And be like, it's a waste. Realize it's a waste of their time too, you know?

[B]

Are you hurt when they beat you up?

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, I have, like, nerve damage in, like, both my arms from this, from that. Mostly from being chained up because it gets worse. But so I'm in my chains, right? And like, I can, like, move around. I can like. Like if my hands were humming back by, it's like, all right. I can like, feel like the knot on the rope. So, like, I'm like untying it. Like, I get out of my chains, but there's a camera in my cell and they come in, beat me again. This happens over the. I'm there for about four, three or four days. This happens for over the. Over the time of like three or four days, over and over and over again.

[B]

They keep on coming in and keep

[A]

on coming in, dragging me out, beating me, throw me back in, tie me up. He comes, he comes back in. This is good training for my. My boys. At this point, I'm just like. I'm just trying to be defiant just because of how frustrated I am, how aggravated I was. Really more aggravated than I was scared up to this point.

[B]

How are you being defiant?

[A]

Breaking out my chains, like, breaking out of. Out of the constraints was enough for them to come in to. To beat me, but it was. So you got to realize it was four. It was like about three or four days. I can't do anything with my arms. I can't even sleep with the bars behind my back. Like, just the pain you feel. The first time they did it, I had a panic attack, you know, I was like, like, my heart started racing. Like, it's cold in there, but I was breaking out in this full body sweat. And I. Like, the only way I can, like, feel better was like, if I sat down on, like, that toilet and like, put my head through down to my knees, and that was the only way I felt better.

[B]

Like, felt better than physically didn't.

[A]

Yeah, like, I felt like a relief. Like, I felt like I was gonna, like, have a heart attack or like, like just throw up everything. Like, like have diarrhea or something. That's how bad it was. Like, I'm full body sweat. Like, you see, like my shirt, like this sort of like sky blue jumper that they give you. I'm just like sweating through it, you know? And like, I was like, feeling dehydrated. I haven't had in my whole time there any water, any food or anything, you know, Like, I, like, I've like, being a fighter like you, you go through weight cuts and stuff. So, like you felt like dehydration, you know, sort of starvation stuff before on. On the wave of getting to. To wait for your fight. So I was used to that, but like, to go through that for. For days, because you could still support her when you're cutting weight and stuff, you know, but there was no water, there was no. No food. And then you're chained up, you know, had panic attack. You know, you break out your chains, they chain you up, they beat you, chain you up again, throw you back in the cell. It was bad. I could feel my kidneys. I could feel, like, my spine, every organ. I could feel the outline of every organ in my body. I could feel my heart beating. I could feel my brain in my skull. My eyes were completely dry, my lips super chapped. My lips were bleeding everything because it began punching the face while, you know, your lips are chapped, you know, it was all. All beat up. It was. It was bad. And then the fourth day comes. They have my stuff in their hands. They throw it in the cell. They're like, you're getting out today. Like, I'm like, oh, thank God. You know, they unchained me and everything like that. And then, like, I put my stuff on and they're like, all right, we're going to come back to get you. Four hours, five hours, six hours goes. And like, I'm just standing there like, yeah, I'm not going home today. Like, even if they did come in to get me, like, I'm not going home. Like, they've lied to me at least like two or three times. Already about me going back. And I was like, it's not happening. So a guy comes. This is like, he's like. I think I describe him as like this sort of like Latino Nazi. Like, he's like, very clean cut, very aggravated type of guy. You know, feminine, very clean, military style guy. Sort of like the. Just like the Nazi stereotype, you know. He comes in, he's already come with me. I think this is like a higher up on dgc. I am. They bring me into like this small room finally are starting to like, do like the deeper prison stuff. Like they mask me, throw me in the back of a car. And like, this is like the only time, like, where like, real fear has gotten to me. Like, I'm not frustrated anymore. Like, I'm scared for my life because, like, I'm like, oh, they're gonna bring me to like one of those black sites and, and kill me, you know? You know, so I'm like, all right. They bring me through the yard of. Of Rodeo one and like, it's hot that day. Like, the sun's like. I know I'm like, I'm in a big courtyard, you know, I could just like, sense it. And like, the sun's just beating down on me. And they bring me into a room and they sit me down on my knees. I'm like, all right, well, it's probably like where they're going to execute me. And then like, they take the, the. The hood off and they start shaving my head. And then they sit me down in a chair while they're shaving my head. And. And like there's like two guys, like a panel almost like writing paperwork on me and everything, asking me questions about my. About my notebook, about. I had a journal that I write my travels in. And then I had a notebook where I would. I would outline my articles, I'd post about stuff about different countries. They went to my phone asking me about my aunt, about my family, about, you know, different people, friends and stuff like that. Asked me about the maps again, asked me about the boots again, you know, all that sort of stuff while they're shaving my head. But while they shaved my head, I'm like, oh, thank God. Like, they're not gonna kill me. They're just throw me another prison, you know? I'm like, all right, so I gotta deal with the, the process some more, you know, I'm not gonna die. So when I realized I wasn't gonna die, I'm talking again. They bring in a translator named Javier. He's a He's Middle Eastern. I think he's either Yemenis or Lebanese. And he's a fellow prisoner. Bring him in to be my translator. Old guy, he's a Muslim man. He walks around with the.

[B]

The beads.

[A]

The beads with the Muslim.

[B]

Yeah, the pair of beads.

[A]

Pro. Beads.

[B]

Yeah. Does he speak.

[A]

He speaks English, Spanish. He. This guy becomes my translator because at this point, like, I really need a translator. Like, my Spanish wasn't. Yeah, wasn't. Wasn't getting nowhere, but really nothing was gonna get me anywhere. All right, so. So he comes in, he's. He's asked me all these questions about my stuff and he's like. He's like, don't worry. He's like. He's like, things are going to be good. Don't worry, man. He's like, you're going to be fine. Don't worry. And me and him, you know, we sort of become friends over, Over. Over the time. So I spent about maybe like an hour with him and the Nazi at question me and stuff. Before I leave, I ask him like, hey, like, am I going to see you again? Like, am I going to. And Nazi's like, oh, yeah, sure, whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, okay, well, fine. I get sent to my cell and that's where I meet like my. My cellmate, Valkeni Diaz.

[B]

What's his name?

[A]

Valkeni Diaz. Valkini Valeni. Yeah.

[B]

Valini Valkeni. Val Val.

[A]

Kenny Valkeni. Yeah.

[B]

And where was he from?

[A]

He's from. He's from Venezuela. Yeah, he's. He spent most of his time in. In Colombia, but he was coming back across the border to see his family in Venezuela and that's the way where they arrested him. Similar to me. So I see him and he's like all beat up. He is like multiple gunshot wounds, missing teeth. Like a huge gash from machete on it. On his. In between his neck and shoulder. I'm like, oh, I'm in. I'm in here with the big dogs. I'm in here with the rough boys, you know.

[B]

And then why was this guy detained if he was Venezuelan?

[A]

Everybody's. Everybody is in there to tame for the same reason. Just being a regular guy. They're filling up that prison. They were filling up that prison with anybody. Schwarmer cutters, taxi drivers deliver people that

[B]

they believed were threat to the government or no, whatever they wanted or they just wanted to.

[A]

You know, I think it was split. It was foreigners that they're using to. As political pawns.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, And a multitude of random Venezuelans to add some legitimacy to the prison. And then obviously the more bigger ups in, in there, like the generals, the other people, you know, like one of the guys in there who became a close friend of mine was the son of Maduro's political adversary. His name was, what was Rafa Rafael Duarez. And he was in there. He was a really good, nice guy. Das.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah, he was in there for a while. He had the yellow jumpsuit, which meant you're going to spend life in there. Blue jumpsuit, mints. You're gonna, you're stuck in processing and we'll let you out whenever we feel like. So you're gonna spend some time in there. But the yellow was like, we're never gonna let you out. And he was the only yellow guy on, on the cell block.

[B]

Is he still in there?

[A]

No, he got out. He got out? Yeah, yeah, thank God, you know, he got out. Yeah. I talked to his wife. Yeah, yeah, he got out, but back to about in the cell balcony. Cool. Coolest guy. I. I couldn't have asked for a better cellmate. Super clean. And he's annoying, like, so if you're ever down feeling alone, like, he's just gonna bother you, which is like what you need, you know. He was a super annoying guy. He used to annoy the guy across from me, Saeed, who I'm in contact with his wife because he's still locked up. But Saeed would get annoyed and just like put up a towel on his, on his cell.

[B]

So he tried to isolate. Yeah, so Valkinia was annoying because he was just talking all the time.

[A]

He just talked a lot. And, and like, he was just, he was funny, you know. Everybody in the prison loved him. He was like the prison mascot. You know, everybody will walk, walk by the, the cell and chant. His nicknames. Nickname was Chicho, you know, like, like little. And like, he screamed back Chicho. He like, he would scream his own nickname, like a Pokemon, you know. So he was like a Pokemon. He was, he was really, he was a really, really funny guy, you know, and everybody, everybody loved him. So I, I wasn't in any sort of trouble with like my cellmate or anything like that.

[B]

But when you arrive in prison, what's your state of mind at this point?

[A]

Mine is like, nobody knows I'm here. If my family ever like really like realizes that because I was supposed to make it back for like the family vacation, I missed it. So, like, then they're going to realize I'm gone. They probably Think I'm dead in the Amazon, you know, they're not going to think, oh, Venezuela in prison, you know, that's like such. Who would think that? You know? So I was like, I'm a goner. I'm just. I'm spend some time here. I'm going to do a bit here, you know, I'm going to be here a while.

[B]

So you're just sort of adapting yourself.

[A]

Yeah, I was like, I'm going to be here a minute.

[B]

So that's something about you, is that you really. You sort of adapt to whatever situation, whatever the world gives you, life gives you. You're adapting to it.

[A]

You got to adapt. Yeah, yeah, because what else am I going to do, you know?

[B]

So you didn't go into like a full depression and panic mode, thinking, what the fuck? Nobody knows I'm here. I'm going to. There's. How am I going to get out of here?

[A]

No, I was. I was like, I was worried. I was upset that nobody knew I heard, but I'm in the panic mode. I was like, all right, they're not going to kill me. I'm not going to die. They threw me in the cell.

[B]

Because at this point, it was just after you thought you were going to be killed.

[A]

Yeah. I'm about to just go through the semantics, you know, I'm about to go through, you know, the protocol, the bureaucracy of everything, you know, I'm going to be just like these guys, you know, Know how long I'm gonna be here for? I'm really aggravated because I'm wasting time. That was my main thing. Really aggravated. I was like, how am I gonna travel the rest of the world? I'm stuck in prison, you know. So the next day they bring me out and they start doing like, the psychological torture stuff. Bring me out, put me into a white room with Javier. He's my translator and like the lie detector test guy. Right. And it's like me and Javier become really cool. I get to learn a lot about him, you know, it turns out that Javier was in prison because he was Maduro's. Like, he would construct deals between Maduro and other organizations, illegal organizations like, like the farc.

[B]

For people who don't know, FARC is the rebel group in, in Colombia. They had a peace deal with the government a few years ago and. But there's still a few members of them out there.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I've done a story on gold mining and how it was funding FARC back in the day. So we sidebar.

[A]

I have a crazy Good story from Gold. Gold mine story, but on the other coast in Guyana. But we could do that later.

[B]

Yeah, let's do that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia.

[A]

That's what it stands for.

[B]

Farc.

[A]

I know about the FARC from, like, watching narcos, you know, and, like, about, like, Pablo Escobar and stuff. Like, I thought those. Those guys disband in, like, the 90s, you know, but they were still around. And then I meet Javier, and he's like, oh, I. I administer deals between Maduro and, And. And. And farc, like, other organizations, too. But FARC was like the guys that. That got him in prison. So he administered a deal between. Because Maduro is also drug dealing. Like crazy. He was administering deals between Maduro and the farc. Didn't go in Maduro's favor. Maduro was like, you got to pay for this. Threw him in prison for unsaid amount of time. And that's what he's doing in prison. His family has. Has left. They went to end up going to, like, Holland.

[B]

Did you tell you. Did you tell you any of the other organizations that Maduro was dealing with?

[A]

He did.

[B]

Is this guy. Is this guy still in prison?

[A]

I think. I think Javier is still in prison. I've been asking questions about him, but I can't get any answers. Like, I'm still in contact. Like, I'm in tune with, like, what's all going on down there and stuff.

[B]

I want to get there. Don't share.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So I don't know how. He was my. That was my guy. That was like, one of my. My closest friends in there. Because, like, things during these tests, like, these, These lie detector tests and stuff, like, it's really like a psychological torture. Like, they, you know, stick all the stuff to, like, your fingers and, like, your body and stuff, and then they. They make you tell lies to, like, what's baseline, the test, right? They're like, all right, you have to tell us, like, you don't love your father. You have to tell us that. That you've never fallen in love with anybody. You have to tell us that you don't care about people. Like, you have, like. Like, you have to lie. Like, if you do care about your father, you have to tell us that you don't, you know, and you have to lie. And they make you repeat it hours and hours and hours and hours for, like, we were in there for, like, 12 to 16 hours every day, like, like, for two days straight, you know, and they make you repeat it. And like, when You. When you first do it, you're like, oh, whatever. Like, for the first three, four hours, you're like, at least I'm not in the cell. Right? But. But then as the hours go on and on, like, it just starts to break you down. Like, you start to get frustrated and stuff. And, like, I. I don't know what sort of lie detector test needs you to. Because every time I. I would tell the truth, they're like, oh, it's not coming back correctly. It's like, you have to. We have to ask you again. It's like, well, what do you mean it's not coming back correctly? They were like, oh, well, you must be moving your feet. It's like, all right, well, I can stand completely still. You're going to ask me these questions again. It's going to come back poorly, and you're going to blame it on me again. You know, you do this for 16 hours. You know, I leave, come back the next day to have me in there for another 16 hours.

[B]

And this is all the spy questioning.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So, like, they would start out, the baselines were like, you have to lie about your. Your dad and stuff. And then they would ask me stuff like, are you working with the U.S. are you working with any sort of foreign intelligence? Are you working, you know, to cause harm towards Venezuela? Are you doing anything to cause harm towards President Maduro, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Are you a terrorist? And stuff like that? And that's why I need Javier there, because, like, this is stuff like I've never encountered in my life. Like, I don't. I don't know what this. I don't even know what you're asking me. Like, I've never even come across these words, you know? So, you know, in between these rounds, like, me and Javier were talking. That's how I got to know him, got to know about his family and stuff like that. And, you know, we became close. They put me back in my cell the next day. They're like, all right, well, you gotta sign. You know, you gotta sign this paperwork.

[B]

I'm like, this is after the two days?

[A]

After the two days, yeah.

[B]

So I think this is, like, psychological torture.

[A]

Yeah. So I think I'm in. I've been in rodeo now for about three days.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

All in all. So it's like my fourth day in rodeo. They're like, all right, man, you gotta. We're gonna. You gotta sign this paperwork. I'm like, I'm not signing anything. Like, why do you want me to Sign. Like, I was like. I was like, what do you mean, sign paperwork? Like, I. Like, for what? You know? Like, I don't trust you guys. Like, you guys told me I was going home, like, last week. Like, a week ago. By now, you know, they were like. They were like. They were. Sign it like this. It's for you. And I was like, dude, I'm not signing anything. And, like, I. It was just me. And, like, by this point, like, I had had Javier with me every single day. I was, like, doing stuff like this. I was like. And he wasn't there. I was like. I was like, oh, bring Javier in. So they're like, all right. They sent me back to my cell. I'm in there for, like, an hour. They bring it back out, and, you know, hobby's there this time. And I'm like, yo, Javi, should I. Should I sign this. This paperwork? This paperwork? And he's like. He's like, I can't. I can't. I can't tell you. He's like. He's like. He's like, this paperwork kind of doesn't mean anything. Like, if you sign it, you sign it, but if you don't, like, it's pretty much for them to, like, add a legitimacy to their. Their stuff, but it's not going to do anything for you, you know, whether you sign it or not. And there was, like, two or three women in there, and, like, they had. Obviously working with dgc, im, but they. They were in plain clothes, you know? And I was like. I was like, all right. I kind of have, like, this bad thing where, like, I could, like, trust women a lot. So it's like, okay. Like, I'm talking to them. They're like, just, you know, sign it. It's not going to harm you. So I'm like, okay. I'm like, all right, Javi, did you get your cigarettes? Because he was asking for cigarettes for, like, days, you know, because he was doing, like. He was helping me to get cigarette breaks, you know, they had never gave him his cigarettes, you know, and he was like, oh, the. The. The. The leader. The. The director of the prison is. He's my friend, you know, but, you know, he's just so crazy. I was like, javier, he's. He's not your friend. He's like, he's not. I'm not. He's not gonna get you your cigarettes, dude. Like, I'm not gonna tell you, like, you've been here for all these years. He's like, oh, yeah, he will. He will. He's like. He's like, he's crazy. But, you know, he's still my friend because Javi was a political guy with Maduro. So, like, he knows this guy. He knows the guy who runs the prison. I was like, that's not your friend, dude. But I was like, all right, Javi, today I'm not signing this unless you get your cigarettes. I get to use a real bathroom, and I get to talk to, like, somebody from, like, the US Good, you know? And Javi was like. Javi translated that. And they were like, all right, you know, we'll do that for you, you know? So I was like, all right, cool. They bring Javier away, and, like, I made, like, the stupid mistake of, like, signing the paperwork before I actually got that, those things, you know? So I signed the paperwork, and they bring me back. I'm like, all right, I'm about to go use a real bathroom. And, like, I know it's like, I'm on my way back to my cell. So, like, I start, like, fighting the guards, like, on the way back to my cell. So, like, I'm in the middle of, like, cell block A1, fighting the guards in front of everybody, right? You know, they're beating my ass about. There's like, like four of them. Like, just. Just me, right? They throw me back in the cell, and I'm just like, I'm pissed. Like, now I'm like. I'm really aggravated, right? Like, I'm not like, he. Like, even. Even Valkini was like, he's. I gotta let this guy cool down. Like, this is something else, you know, it's like the. Trying to tell in chronological order. Sorry.

[B]

No, you're good.

[A]

Because I. There's some stuff I missed. But, like, there was a time going back to, like, like, trusting the women in there. There was the psychologist. Psychologist that they have there. She. She was, like, masked up like all the other guys. But I was just like, how. I was like, how can you be a psychologist and, like, work in this place? Like, how can you ask a man. So tell me about, like, what's upsetting, like, while you're part of the thing that's upsetting him, you know, you're part of the system. You literally have all these innocent men in here, you know, taken off the street, and you're going to ask my, oh, why are you upset today? Well, I don't know. Maybe because you have me in prison. I haven't done any crime. Have you been convicted of any crime? You know, so I was like. I remember questioning her about that. And she like, couldn't like, grasp like, what I was saying. Like, she couldn't understand, like, how. How she was a part of the system and how, like.

[B]

Right. How that was a conflict of interest.

[A]

Exactly. You know, like you met so many people in there like that that had bought so far into the system that they don't even realize, like, that they're doing something completely, you know, stupid or just like. Yeah, I guess stupid's the right word to use. Right. And another thing that upset me so much about that prison too was although DGCM was like, the guards asked me all these questions and stuff like that, the actual guards in the prison were part of this organization called sesmos. They were the guys that ran that prison. And all the SESMOS agents were like 18 and 19 years old, you know, and then like, there would be a select few of like the older guys, like the guys that like, actually run stuff. But like, these kids. Imagine being a grown man, you know, in your 40s, in prison for no reason, and you have a 19 year old, you know, either beating you or like, you know, treating you like, you know, subhuman, you know, or just in control of you in general, you know.

[B]

Yeah. So these kids are even mature enough to be in that situation?

[A]

Not at all. It was. It was so humiliate. I got so angry with that. But anyway.

[B]

And you were never able to then get your call to your phone?

[A]

No, it never. Of course not. Of course not. You know, the next day after, after all that happened, they bring me into a. A different room and they have a laptop there. This is the trial. Any. A lot of other people you. You'll talk to had this trial where they bring in the judge and you're

[B]

saying trial in parentheses.

[A]

Because it's not a trial, it's a. So you have the judge there and he's like this gaudy guy with like Cartier buffs. And like buffs are like a Cartier framed glasses made of a buffalo bone, I think. Right.

[B]

I remember now that you're in fashion. So you know what that is and I don't.

[A]

Yes, a Prada white puffer. Just so gaudy, you know.

[B]

That was the judge.

[A]

This was the judge. And then the camera pans over to who's the guy? Who's your lawyer? And this is like, you know, the old, you know, the joke in the US where it's like, you get the state appointed lawyer, you got a traffic ticket. Next thing you know, you're facing 20 years in jail. Yeah, this is this guy, like blue jeans, like, blazer too big for him. Like, big beer gut hanging over the belt. Black t shirt, like with stains on it, you know, not ungroomed. I was like, oh, man, I'm going, I'm. I'm gonna be here a while, you know. And then they're talking in like very complex Spanish back and forth to each other. This is like my trial. And then they bring in a translator. Different guy. It's not, it's not Javier anymore. Um, I later find out when I go through the PISA program here in the u. S. It's a guy, this guy named Matoro, but I didn't know his name. We. He was brought in as my translator, was never allowed to say anything to me. But it turns out, like, I, I picking up on a few things. They're not charging me being spy anymore. They're anymore. They're trying to charge me with being a terrorist. Yeah. Because obviously I think, I think to be a spy you have to like show. They have to prove some sort of affiliation with some sort of government or something. Right.

[B]

And they couldn't find any.

[A]

No, of course not. I'm not a spy. Because you're not a spy, you know.

[B]

And so the, the barrier was less for it.

[A]

For being a. Yeah, because you had guys in there, in there for terrorism, for having like a photocopy machine in their house, you know, the guy I was talking about, Rafael Duartez, he was in there because he had a photocopy. Obviously he was in there because whose father in law was. But he was in there because he had a photocopy, photocopy and fax machine in his house. And they said he used that to put propaganda on the Internet about Maduro.

[B]

Oh, so a terrorist, like a domestic terrorist?

[A]

Yeah, like a domestic terrorist type of.

[B]

That's what they were accusing you of. Like trying to destabilize the government.

[A]

Exactly, yeah. Or any. Any sort of thing along the lines of that it was just an umbrella. An umbrella term to keep me in prison. So they're like, yeah, we're gonna keep in here, bud, you know, until we get. Until we finish the case, basically. So they threw me in prison and I. I haven't seen the light of day since originally going to DGCI and, you know, I was never allowed off my cell block, obviously, because he thought I originally thought I was a spy, you know.

[B]

So in that sham trial, you were found guilty then?

[A]

Basically, yeah, not found guilty, but found of needing deeper investigation, you know, because I was in the blue Suit. If you're in the blue suit, you're basically stuck in there for this pseudo amount of time where they're still investigating. Everybody's. Remember the process. Everybody's going through processing, you know, but it's not processing. They're just keeping you in there. They're not even thinking about, you know, run any sort of investigation on you. You know, it's all a sham. So bring. Throw me into cell and, you know, this is. I'm just one of the guys now, you know, talking to all the guys and everything like that. You know, being constipated because the food was so bad. Bread and cheese, basically, or potato cake and cheese. Every single day. No vegetable? No vegetable, no fruit. You had to get a special dietary plan for that. So you had to be able to visit the infirmary to get that. I was never allowed to visit the infirmary.

[B]

But you were in a cell with another man.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you had. You both had beds.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, we had a. So this. This place was completely. This place was better than d. Sim Being in solitary, obviously, still hell. But I had a bed. I had water and food.

[B]

You know, what do the days look like? Tell me a typical day.

[A]

Wake up, just sit in the cell, get, get. Get some food, and that's it. You see the other guys go out to the. To the yard, and you just stay in the cell.

[B]

You didn't have yard time?

[A]

No.

[B]

Why not?

[A]

I wasn't allowed. I had a yard time one day and I went out and I saw. I got to see all the people I was talking to, yelling down the hall and stuff. But I. I saw it was this craziest thing. It was the most brazen, like, Christian nationalist propaganda that you can get. You had Jesus Christ's face on a billboard right above the. The yard, and it said. It said something like, God is with sesmos, the guards in the prison. I was like. I was like, ain't no way. Like, they're using. Because obviously Latin America is such a religious region, you know, Christian region, you know, it's like either using religion, like this religious propaganda to, like, on.

[B]

On their side.

[A]

On their side? Yeah, on the side. I was like, oh, man. Like, this is so. Like, you can't even write that in a book like. Like that. That's such, like a, you know, Orwellian type of situation.

[B]

Can you explain to me? So everybody else was allowed on the yard, but you were not?

[A]

I was allowed out on the yard just once on New Year's Eve.

[B]

Why. Why is that?

[A]

Why weren't you I think is either you had to serve, like, a certain amount of time to go out in the yard, but I'd already served that time there, you know, and I. I still wasn't allowed out there on the. So they were like, dude, they think you're. They think you might be a spy. So, like, that's why they're not allowing you out. Were you the only American there on my cell block? Yeah, I was the only, like, born and raised American there. But I gotta get. I gotta get to that. Some other stuff with that, too. There's other, like, Venezuelan Americans, Columbia Cuban Americans and stuff like that. Colombian Americans, I think, Panamanian Americans, yada, yada, yada. But one day, like, I. I get, like. I get, like, really upset because I look out my cell, like, while they're bringing out all the other guys, and I'm still stuck in there. Like, I see, like, it's just a bunch of kids. And, like, all the guys come back from this, from the yard. I'm like, yo, Raphael, I need you to translate this. And, like, I just, like, going to rant about, like, guys, like, we're stuck in here, you know, like, we're all grown men, and we let these kids control us. The literal kids, 18, 19 years old control us. You know, tell us when we can go outside. You know, I. I watch grown men, big for coffee. You know, these like, a grown man begging a kid for coffee. The kids. I know I'm not giving you any coffee while he's pouring coffee for everybody, you know, going in, like, begging for fruit, you know, Come on. Like, I was like, we got it. I was like. I was like, we gotta stand up for ourselves a little bit. I was like, by this time, like, they'd already seen me get beat a couple times. Like, there was a couple times, like, I got beat with, like, broomstick on the subway, dumped with water. I was like, you guys see me getting beat? I was like. I was like, I ain't got nothing to lose. Like, nobody knows I'm here. Like, y', all, like, I can't, like, fight this fight on my own. Like, you know, we gotta like this. Like, I'm in Venezuela, I'm visiting your country, you know, you were trying to

[B]

sort of start some sort of rebellion or something.

[A]

We see, we see, we see. So the foreigners were known in that prison for doing that. The guys on. On C1, the guys on B1, all the. All the Yemenis guys, all the Middle Eastern guys, a lot of the European guys. All. All these guys, like, you're always hearing these guys get constantly rowdy and, like, while they getting rowdy, I'm like, yeah, it's our time. It's our time. Like, it's our time. I used to say that, you know, and. And, like, they'd, like. They'd be like, no, like, we can't do. Like, the Venezuelans were very afraid of, like, the. The what would happen, you know. But, like, the Middle Easterners were. All the time. You hear about the Middle east, like, they were. They would get rowdy and then, like, if they got, like, really sad, like, they were known to, like, hang themselves, you know. Like, they were known to, like, go, go. Like, because it. It was like they want their freedom, you know. And the Venice, they were like, we're not on that, you know? I was like, okay, but it makes sense. Like, when you're under, like, a regime, when you're under, you know, know, totalitarian government, like, that, like, you get conditioned in. In ways. And like, they had, like, all those sort of ways to, like, get you to, like, not revolt. Like, you know, like, selling each other out for, like, sandwiches, hamburgers, that sort of stuff.

[B]

Also, not to forget that a lot of these people have families out there, right? So they're probably worried about their families if they don't follow the rules, right? If something happens, if they decide to go against the authority, maybe what happens to their families.

[A]

Exactly. You know? So, like, it was. It was always like that. It was like, very. A contrast between the Venezuelan nationals and the foreigners, the way we all behaved. So I said all that. And then this guy who was telling me about his father and how he's going around all these soccer stadiums advocating for him and stuff, he was like, guys, don't worry. He's like, I'm. He's like, I'm. I'm famous. Like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna get us out of here. Very, like, white messiah, like, you know, savior. Like. And I was like, stop telling these people this. Like, you're not gonna get us out of here. Like, you. About, like you giving us all this. All this hope for no reason. Like. Like.

[B]

Like.

[A]

Like you're lying to us. Like, you. Like, you. Like you're in here with us. Like you. Like, nobody knows. Like. Like. Like you're in here, dude. Like, you need to stop that, you know? Like, you've given us all this false hope, you know? And some time goes by around the time, like, Maduro got captured. First of all, all the information we got in there, we got it really late and all the information we thought was gold was like, actually, so we didn't know Maduro got captured until, like, maybe a week afterwards.

[B]

So just to backtrack a little bit. So you're. This. Was. This past January, you're still. You've been there for. For how long at that point?

[A]

It's been there for. I was in. I had been taken for about a month at that point. Yeah.

[B]

So you've been there for about a month. And then you guys, from when we

[A]

found out, maybe about three weeks from

[B]

when he got captured, and you guys hear that suddenly that President Maduro, who's the president, right at this point for you, very big, scary regime that, you know, is doing terrible things to people, human rights violations left and right, totalitarian regime. And suddenly you find out he is. He's been captured.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, what. Who told you? And what was.

[A]

Yeah, first we didn't know that, like, the bombing and stuff were the same night he got captured. So we heard about the bombings first, and we thought it was Colombians. That prison's far enough out that we couldn't hear the bombs. So we were like, oh, my God, please let it be Colombians. Like, maybe, like, Colombians will come bomb this place, like, free us. I end up in, like, Bogota and had to figure out how to get home from there, right? And we were thinking that for, like, maybe a week until we found out Maduro had captured. We thought it was a different day. We thought Maduro, the day we found out, we thought he got captured that day.

[B]

Because you're hearing the bombings.

[A]

No, we can't. We can't. It's. We're so far away, you know, that's why we didn't know Maduro got captured until, like, a week afterwards. So we find out, like, because guards will listen to TikTok and stuff like that. So we're like, all right, so we can get, like, information that way and, like. But by the time it gets to you, it's like nothing.

[B]

But you still don't know who had captured the Maduro?

[A]

No. So the information we got, even when I got out, the information that they were spewing to everybody was Maduro got captured at the airport. Agents came in to get him at the airport. That's where they got him. And they got him fighting back and everything. I didn't know he got captured in his bedroom until I got on the plane with the DEA and the State Department.

[B]

And at what point did you learn that it was the Americans who had captured him?

[A]

Around then.

[B]

Only.

[A]

Only then, yeah. Yeah, well, because they didn't tell us. They're not going to tell us information, you know, so we had to. We had to figure out ways to get our information. Like a guards on TikTok, Some people could hear the streets, and, like. Like, there was, like, protesters outside the prison. So, like, if you're high enough up, you can hear the streets. And they'll be like, hey, you know, this. What happened? You know, so, like, that. That's one way, but then that also has to get through the prison before it gets to you. So it's like you don't know what to trust and what not to trust. And all the time, this guy is claiming that planes are flying over, playing Scottish rebellion music, Scottish war music, and he said he can hear people in the streets chanting his name and, like, all this sort of stuff.

[B]

This is the guy.

[A]

That's the guy, right?

[B]

He's going to be able to get everybody out because he's very famous.

[A]

Yeah. You know, and I'm just. And so I'm like. I'm, like, trying to play detective, like, in my cell, because I'm like, if this guy's telling the truth, like, this is really good for us. Like, we really need this, you know? But if he's. If he's lying to us, you know, this is like, just feeding us nothing, false hope, you know? So I'm like. I'm talking to my. My cellmate who was there, like, one of the longest people there. I was like, hey. I was like, can you hear the streets from here? He was like, you can, but you have to be in certain cells, you know, you have to be, like, up high, like in one of the A building or. Or. Or B building. It can't be B building because B building up high is where they torture you, you know, so it has to be coming from a building. So I was like, okay. I was like, is there. Is like. I was like, had you hear any planes or anything, like, playing music? He's like. He's like, that's not real, dude. He was like. He's like, I. Whatever he's telling you, he's. He's. He's lying. He's like, none of that stuff was going on. And I was like, all right. My cellmate was the one that brought the information back to the cell block about the bombings obviously was wrong. He said it was Colombians.

[B]

Was like, who.

[A]

Who gave you that information? He was like, it was the guy. I was like, where's he from? He was like, he's from this country. Same country as the guy that.

[B]

The delusional.

[A]

Delusion. Yeah. So I was like, all right, maybe. Maybe they got some sort of messaging situation going on here in the prison, right? And I was like. I was like, all right, well, what. What sub blocks he on? He was like, he's on B1. I was like, can you hear the streets or anything from B1? He was like, nah. I was like, so where. Where is he getting this information from? I was like, there's no way this information is real. And then you could tell when he started losing, I guess, favorability with. With the. With the guys on the cell block, because when Maduro, we found out Maduro did get captured and like, all the. All the guys, like, we're all having fun, like, we're cursing and everything like that. This. This delusional guy has the nerve to say. He's like, you know, when we get out of here, you guys have to be aware some of us are going to be on tv. He's like, and you can't be out here cursing on TV and. And making us look bad, like we're degenerates and we're criminals. And then that's when I was like. And he said that in English. But then I was. I was like, this. All right, I don't want to say. It's going to be embarrassing, but I said to them in Spanish, I was like. I was like, oh, you could say whatever you want. I was like, if you want to say. You could say. If you want to say. You can say, like, like the. The only words. I can only die. No. In Spanish, right? I was like. I was like, because you. I was like, because you're free,

[B]

you know, you'll be able to be free. Will be able to say whatever.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Because we'll be free.

[A]

Exactly. And, like, everybody chanted. He got so upset with that, you know, we. I. I didn't hear anything from, like, since then. And then eventually when I did get free, like, I, like, research, I was like, well, this guy was telling the truth. He was lying the whole time.

[B]

So do you think he was just.

[A]

There you go, what? No, I know, exactly.

[B]

He was just trying to make himself important inside the prison so people would like him and do favors for him.

[A]

Oh, no, no.

[B]

Pretend that he was going to be releasing everybody or what?

[A]

No, I think. I think it's just like. Like, just the mental psychosis of being in jail.

[B]

Oh, poor guy.

[A]

You know, and then also, you know, sometimes, like, people just need that hope, too, you know, People. Even if it's not even. It's not helping us. It's helping him in a lot of ways. You know, I think he just needed that hope. Needed to feel like somebody was out there to help him, you know, that's

[B]

why I don't try and get him out of there.

[A]

Right. You know, that's why I didn't. I don't want to, like, use his name or, like, say where he's from or anything like that, you know, because he was, like, going through stuff. You know, his. His cellmate was never in the cell. He was. He was somewhere else, which I. I don't want to say his name either because he was going through some stuff that none of us on the cell block knew. And I didn't know until I got out and I was talking to other guys from other cell blocks what was going on with him, you know. So he was in there alone.

[B]

Yeah. You know, which is. Yeah. As hard as already it is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Us being alone. Can you tell me what the. What the prison looked like? So you said there's different cell blocks, right? There's different sort of towers.

[A]

I. I was always masked up when I was brought out, so I don't really. I can't really tell you.

[B]

So all. All you know about the prison is the cell that you were in and then the common area, the food area, like the cantina. Did you guys.

[A]

No, no. They bring the food to the cell. That's why I was never. I was never out of my cell.

[B]

And was it. Was it dirty? Was it loud?

[A]

Oh, yeah, of course. Like. Like we had a. We had a termite and lice and tick infection infestation in the. In the cell. And, like, it was. It was bad. Like, they. They always had to shave our head, shave our faces and everything. So we didn't, like, get lice or anything.

[B]

And did you get tick bites?

[A]

Oh, yeah, for sure. Like. Like you. You would like to squeeze them and, like, the blood will come out of the tick, you know? I got, like, very bad sick, very badly sick. Like how, like, when I got out and, like, went through, like, the reentry program here in the US like, had, like, all these parasites and everything. I got, like, very badly sick where, like, all the guys on the cell block were looking out for me and Senior Edgar had, like, Pepto Bismol. He. He gave it to me.

[B]

That was food poisoning.

[A]

I'm. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was. It was a giardia.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Giardia.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And in. In. So when. Tell me about the moment that everything sort of. So you're at this. So you're still. Several weeks have passed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're sort of adapting to this new reality. Are you still. Are you hopeful? Are you thinking this is going to be. This is going to be several more months or what? What's your mental state?

[A]

You kind of, like, just get into the swing of things. Like, me, my cellmate, you know, we were playing dominoes.

[B]

I mean, would you. This is such a crazy scenario. Like, were you crying? Were you.

[A]

Yeah. If anybody tells you they've been to prison, weren't crying, they're lying. Like, we were all crying in there. We were all crying. You know, we. Every. Every last one of us, you know, we just get in ourselves, start crying. You know, I was crying. Bal. Kenny was crying. Saeed across from me was crying. Everybody, Everybody was crying.

[B]

Would you openly cry in front of each other or were you hiding?

[A]

Sometimes, like. Like when there was a day when the leader of the dgc, he had gone, made an announcement after, for some reason, like, when. When Trump was, like, taking over all the embargoes and stuff, he was like, I'll kill all the prison, all the prisoners before I let them go. And, like. And then Senior Edgar was like, I. I believe him. And, like, we were all like, oh, man. Yeah, Casino. We looked up. We looked up to Senior for, like, everything, you know, he was like. He was. He had, like, such a. Like a great. And. And great family. Like, which one is Senior Edgar? He was like the short guy that did all the. All the prayers and stuff with us. You know, every single night he. He do a prayer. And very intelligent guy. Probably smartest guy on the cell block. Whole family is, like, academics.

[B]

Why was he in there?

[A]

Same reason we're all in there.

[B]

He's Venezuelan.

[A]

He's. He's Venezuelan. Panamanian. He came back to visit his family in Venezuela and got.

[B]

Got.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Arrested him.

[A]

Yeah. But he's lived in pretty much every country in. In the Americas.

[B]

So once he broke down, you guys, you.

[A]

Well, he. He didn't break down. He was just really just. Oh, I believe he's. He. Yeah. Like. And so we were like. We were just like, well, we're not going to get out. We're going to die.

[B]

What was the worst, worst moment for you while you were there?

[A]

Maybe that. I mean, by the time I got to rodeo, like, I was. It was so much better than being, like, chained up and being at dgcm. But one of the, like, the most emotional parts for me was like, the day I started to teach my. My cellmate how to read. He. He was looking at a book, looking at pictures, and he would look at the pictures and then car. Like carve or molds out of toilet paper, like, different objects he would see in. In the book, but he was never really reading the book. And I was like, do you. Do you know how to read? I was like. I was like, I think I could teach you how to read. Like, it's the same letters as English, and, like, sounding them out is the same way you do English. Like, you know. You know 10 to 20 times more words of Spanish than I do. You know, if I could just teach you how to, like, say the word, like, you'll know what that word is, you know? So, like, we carved the Alphabet out onto the wall of the. Because we didn't have any paper, but he had. He had. He's. He's out of. He's in different position. I can say it's now, but he's. We had. He had, like, a nail that he carved into, like, you know, the wall. And, like, this is Valkeni Valeni.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah. And we had, like, a book of. Of a hundred, like, science fiction small short stories of, like, the 20th century or something like that. Like, the best science fiction stories. And then I was like, all right, I'm going to teach you, like, how to read. Like, like, these are the sounds that you make when you see these letters. But then I realized, like, he doesn't even know, like, what the letters are individually, because then I had to teach them the letters individually. And then I, like, taught him how to put them together. Like, you did that. Do do. You know, and then, like, for every letter, you know, and then, like, I've learned. Do it.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Do it when you're. When you're not looking. You know, it's like, the first night was so emotional for me because I realized he had signed this paperwork to be here in prison, and he didn't even know what it said.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

You know, and, like, I broke down. You know, I was. But, like, the next night, you know, they start calling me, like, the professor, because I was, like, teaching him every night after tea. And, you know, we'd start learning, you know, everybody's like, you know, talking, getting ready for bed or trying to sleep, because it's so hard to sleep, you know. And, you know, they just hear me,

[B]

you know, teaching this guy.

[A]

Teaching this guy. I got him to read. He still still had trouble reading the science fiction book, obviously, but he was able to read, like, the rules and regulations posted on the back of our doors in our cell with. With help, but like, like limited help. Wow. I was like, so I, like five or six year old level, right?

[B]

I think that's amazing.

[A]

You know, I was like, dude, like, when you go home now, like, you'll be able to like, you know, read to your daughter because he. He has a daughter and a wife in Colombia that I was talking about. I was like, hey, man, I was like, what are you gonna do when you get out of here? He's like, I think he's like, I'm gonna go back. He's from this island called Margarita.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He said, I think I'm gonna like bring my wife, my daughter out to Margarita and we're gonna live out there with, you know, my, my dad and stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know.

[B]

Wow. That was a special. That was a good moment.

[A]

Yeah, that was a good moment. That was probably my most emotional moment

[B]

though, you know, like breaking down and realizing what they even did to this guy. Like the idea that they've done this to you. But here's another guy who doesn't even know how to read and write and signed papers and is here because.

[A]

And he's such a good guy. Everybody loves him, like, yeah, had a hard life, you know, that's his story to tell, you know, but had a hard life, did some things, but he didn't deserve to be imprisoned, like, kidnapped off the street and thrown in prison. And everybody loves him, you know, he was a good guy, you know, he looked out for people, you know.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then tell me about the last day. Like, what happened?

[A]

Oh, last day of prison.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right, so last day of prison, the night before this guy, he had fainted on our cell block and we thought he died. So we're like making a ruckus on the cell block. We're like, oh, what's going on? Like, we need to, you know, we need to do something like get a guard out here. Like, they finally get a guard and they like to just drag him out, you know, and then like, he's away for a couple hours, they bring him back, he's like, all right, he's safe. But then, you know, me and Valkin were talking and he's like, he's like, man, you can't, you can't keep making these ruckuses, man. He's like, you know, your president kidnapped our president. This after we knew and everything.

[B]

So at this point, you knew that

[A]

it was last day.

[B]

I was in prison. Captured Maduro.

[A]

Okay, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. He was like, yeah, we can. Sorry. I know I told that wrong earlier when I said I didn't know Trump. I figured out Trump, but we thought it was Colombians first, and then we found out it was Trump. Sorry about that.

[B]

And how did that. Did that affect any. Did that do anything in prison when you found out?

[A]

No. No, it didn't.

[B]

Like, they didn't treat you any differently?

[A]

No, they started treating us all differently when Maduro got captured. We'd start giving us cake and stuff.

[B]

They started treating you better?

[A]

Yeah, they started giving us cake.

[B]

So they started treating the foreigners better after all of us.

[A]

All of us. Because I. It would probably. It would give it away if they started treating just the foreigners better. But by the. But before I got out, people from Spain were getting out. A couple of, like, all the women had gotten out.

[B]

Women prisoners there?

[A]

Yeah, there was, like, 40 women prisoners. I think they were on their own somewhere, but they had all gotten out. All the guys from Spain and maybe a couple other countries had gotten out. So.

[B]

Huh. So you think the guards realized that the power dynamics were shifting here.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

And so they wanted to be on your good side in a way.

[A]

Right. So we knew something was up, you know, so we were like, all right, we could be getting out of here like this. Like, morale started to grow. You know, we're like, all right, things can be looking up from here, you know, it's giving us. So this guy had fainted. We make a ruckus. My soulmate's like, hey, yo, you can't. Can't be doing that, you know? You know, your president got caught. Like, they could just take you out here and shoot you, you know, he's like, you got to use. Like, you got to relax, literally. I know. He's like. He was, like, looking out for me because since he was, like, this liaison between the guards and. And the prisoners, like, he had, like, information, like, the guards would tell him and stuff, because there was whispers that I was going to get out, you know, Like, I'd hear my name, like, you know, that same night, like, one of the, like, middlemen came through. He was like, yo, so how's the. How's the cellmate? And he was like, oh, he's good. He's good. He's like. He's like. He behaves. He's, like, not making a ruckus, like, line for me, you know? And I was like. I was like, what? Why are they talking about me? I knew they were talking about me. I'm either, like, being Brought up to be tortured, right? Or I'm, like, getting out of here because we were supposed, like, me and, like, all the other guys that are making a ruckus, we were supposed to be sent to be tortured, right? And, like, that's. That's B1, where, like, they put, like, they do things to you. Like, they, like, similar. Like, dg seem like they chain you up, hands behind the back, but you're. You're naked. And my. My cellmate had gone through that. The Colombian guy next to me had gone through that. So they were telling me all about that, and I was like, oh, I don't want to go through that. But, yeah, So I was like, next day comes. They were like, all right, you know, the director comes to the door, and I'm like, all right, I'm either getting out of here. I'm getting tortured, you know? So I had carved out all the names of the guys on my. Half the cell block and soap. Threw it in my underwear. I was like, I'm either getting. Gonna get tortured where. If they find the soap, it doesn't matter. I'm gonna get tortured anyway. But if I can get out of here, I can, like, contact these guys. Families on Facebook. So, like.

[B]

So you carve their names on a bar.

[A]

On a bar. So, yeah. Yeah.

[B]

How many names did you get in there?

[A]

Between a half dozen, between a dozen, two dozen on there. And then my cellmate across from 1, 2. So, yeah, maybe about, like, 14, 15. But I couldn't get the names of the guys further down the hall.

[B]

Yeah, you know, so you're just asking people for their full names. So give me your first and last name and write this down. Yeah. And then. Okay, so then the director comes. Your bar of soap is hiding in your.

[A]

In my underwear. They bring me out. They bring me into, like, another room, and, like, I can see from, like, underneath, like, there's a guy. He's chained up, but he's in street clothes, you know, so they take it off, and, like, it's a. A Cuban guy. And, you know, he speaks English. Cuban. American. He speaks English. He's like, hey, man, we're getting out of here. I was like, oh, all right. So, like, they bring me somebody else's clothes, like, shoes that were too small for me. Like, I put. Put all these clothes on, you know, and they set us down. And he's like, yeah, man, we're gonna. How long you been here? He's like, a year and a month. I was like, oh, man. He's like, yeah, you know, he's like, pretty sure I lost my house, my car and everything. I was like, oh, my God. You know, so they take us away in separate cars, but they bring us back to DGC im, and we sit in there and they have all of our stuff. Like, they had, like, his laptop, his bag. They had my bag, my iPad, you know, all my notebooks and everything. And they give it back to us and they separate us. I'm like, oh, man. I was like, I don't know what happened, because I didn't. I haven't seen him since. You know, they bring me to another headquarters, dgc. I am headquarters. And that's when, you know, I start talking to the guy about, you know, what's going. What happened? He tells me about, like, the bombings. It wasn't Colombians, it was Americans. And then this is still telling me that, you know, Maduro was. Was captured at the airport, not. Not in his home. Then I look out the window, and there's another prisoner. But I've never seen this guy before. They put him in a car and they like, all right, you come with us. Put me in the car, too. And they're like, okay, man, bringing you to the embassy, right? And I look at the guy, I'm like, I think we're getting out of here, you know? He was like. He's like, oh, thank God. I was like. I was like, yeah, man. He was like. He's like, oh, man, I thought I was going to be tortured. He was like. He's like, I thought you were going to torture me. I was like, do I look like I'm going to torture you? Like, I'm obviously a prisoner, you know? And then we drive out of there, and, you know, the guy in the front seat, the. The. The military guy, he's like, oh. You know, he's like, man, you know, you guys just come back with, like, a machine gun, like. Or like. Like, just, like, start killing people, like, come back with a bomb, like, just blow this thing up. And I was like. We were like, what. What are you talking about? And I was like, dude, I was like. I was like, he's saying this in Spanish, right? And then we're like. I'm like, dude, you gotta watch out, because he speaks English. Like, so what are we talking about? Like, he's. He might be trying to entrap us or something. Something. So we end up not going to the embassy. We end up going to the tarmac for the private jet hanger or something. The DEA is there. State departments there. Yeah.

[B]

And then what was it like when you first saw Americans?

[A]

I was like, oh, thank God, you know? You know, like f. Like, we're going to get out of here, you know, Cuz you don't know you're going to get out of there till you get out of there, you know?

[B]

What do they. What was your first encounter like? What did they tell you?

[A]

Did they say they're like, you guys, you guys are good like you guys, you guys get you guys home. Then they give us home. They got us, they got us out of there, but they didn't get us home. They just dropped us off in Carousel. They're like, you can get home from here.

[B]

Did you, did you start crying in this moment? Was it emotional for you?

[A]

No, I did not cry. I didn't cry or anything. None of us cried. It was me, him, and then a guy with his whole family there. He was. He was. He. So I was in Rodeo under SES Moss, dgcim. The guy I had met in the car, he was under a completely different organization called GO's, which is another group. Yeah. In a. A military base like hangar, you know, being tortured, electrocuted, sprayed with like, pesticides, like in like a mask. Because they were. He. He had Venezuelan American, moved back to Venezuela, started a business. They were trying to extort money out of him, you know, so that's how they were trying to get it. And then there was a third guy who just stayed in DGCM headquarters for his entire time there. He was in there less time than I think both of us.

[B]

I'm just. I was stuck in, in Niger in a coup d', etat, in a military coup for like nine days. And the moment that we were rescued and taken out on a plane, my whole team was like crying and hugging. So that's why I was asking you. And you were there for like a month and a half. A month and a half. And you were beat and tortured and

[A]

none of us cried. Like, not me, not the guy in goes, not the guy at DGCM headquarters. Like, we were just like, really happy to get out of there, you know?

[B]

Were you laughing? Were you like, so, yeah. Were you so happy?

[A]

Yeah. Funny thing is, when I was in there, I. We. We didn't even get each other's names. Like, that's so bad. But like, I was in the car with the guy from Goes. Like, the first thing we said to each other, like, after he, after he was like, oh, you're not, you're not here to torture me. We were like, we like looked at each Other. And, like, at the same time, like, we said, yo, they beat the shit out of me at the same time. Like. Like, it was like I was like. I don't even know, like, in sync, you know?

[B]

And what about to the DEA agents? And who are the other ones?

[A]

You said it was dea, so State Department did, like, the mission, but, like, I feel like they have to, like, take planes from other people to, like. Or, like, they might need, like, agencies. They might need backup or something, because, like, they're just, like, guys in suits. So, like, they've had the DEA for our.

[B]

And so you went. Did you. Who took you on the plane then?

[A]

A DEA In State Department. It was like, a DEA Plane. DEA plane. State Department guys and a couple DEA guys there. Everybody. All DEA guys are from New York, which was crazy. That was insane.

[B]

So were they asking you what the fuck happened to you?

[A]

Yeah, of course. Yeah.

[B]

You were saying, they beat me.

[A]

Telling them all the stuff. You know, all of us were telling them our stories and everything like that.

[B]

Did anyone give you a hug?

[A]

I don't. I don't think so. I think I got a couple of handshakes, a lot of handshakes. But I was like, oh, thank God I'm out of here. Like, I thought it was, like, under wraps. I was like. I was like, probably nobody knows about this, you know? I was, like, kind of embarrassing to be kidnapped. Like, that's my big thing. Like, I'm pretty embarrassed, you know, that I got kidnapped. Like, that's. That's kind of embarrassing, you know.

[B]

You were detained by.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The government.

[A]

Yeah. But it's like, you know, because it's such a big thing. Like, everybody's like, oh, you know. You know, you. You putting yourself. You're in danger. You're in danger. Every country you go to, you know,

[B]

and your family had told you many times that this was dangerous, what you were doing.

[A]

Yeah. Going different countries and everything. Like, it's like, so embarrassing, you know? Like, kids get kidnapped, you know? But I was like. I was so embarrassed by it.

[B]

And then you land, and who's there?

[A]

They tell me on the plane. They're like, all right, guys. Well, you. You're famous. You're all over the New York Times and stuff. And I was like, oh, man.

[B]

Had your story come out already?

[A]

Yeah, it already been out. It was, like, all over. Like, the Guardian, New York Times and everything.

[B]

They interviewed you while you were still in Venezuela.

[A]

No, they were like, families.

[B]

Okay. Before they.

[A]

Members and, like, friends and stuff like that.

[B]

Because I only read your Story when you were actually interviewed. Not. Not before.

[A]

Afterwards. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And so you land and who was waiting for you?

[A]

Nobody. Dropped us off in Carousel at, like, the Marriott, you know, like five. Like five star resort.

[B]

In New York?

[A]

No, in Carousel in the country? Yeah, yeah, it's Curacao. Yeah, I said it wrong, but they drop us off at, like, this five star resort and they're like, well, we're staying here, guys. You guys can stay here too, if you could afford to stay here, you know. But they're, you know. Are you joking? No, they. They were for real, apparently. Like, like the. I knew this from, like, my time in, In Panama, like when I, like, lost all my stuff and, like, needed to get home. Like, they'll pay. Pay for it to get home, but then they take your passport and then you're in debt to the government, so you have to pay the government back before you can get your passport back. So they're like, this is much easier, you know, to. To. To, you know, to be dropped off in this country and then make your way home from here.

[B]

So you had to figure out a way how to get from curacao to

[A]

the U.S. but my family, luckily, like, when I got there. Yeah, I know, but I mean, if

[B]

anything, it is the obligation of your country to, when you get in trouble abroad because you are American, to bring

[A]

you back home, which they will do. But they were like, it would put you in a lot of trouble if we do that, you know, not like financial trouble. Like you can't get your passport back till you pay the government back. The cause it's like a loan. They give you a loan, but they shouldn't.

[B]

I mean, this should be part of being an American. That's why you pay taxes for situations like this. You were detained primarily because you were an American.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is crazy to me.

[A]

It. Hey, it's okay, though, because, like, my aunts had paid me to. Paid to stay two nights at this resort. And I was like, I kind of needed this before going back to see my family.

[B]

Right. You needed your time just by yourself.

[A]

I was good. It was me. It was one of the other guys. He spent the night there and going home the next day, and the other guy was with his family, so he went to a different resort with them on the island. It was good. It was good to stay there. Okay. Broke down, cried like a. Like a baby in the shower, you know. The second night, though, the first night, I pulled my bar of soap out of my underwear and, like, just looked up all the names On Facebook. Insanely hard to do because I don't know what any of the guys look like. I just know they're. I just know what they sound like in their names because I never got to see their faces. You know, they're all like, I got to see Falconi so I know what he looks like. Got to see. Got to add his sister on Facebook. Talk to her.

[B]

All right. That's crazy. I forgot like you had written these guys names down, but you didn't actually.

[A]

You hadn't seen their faces.

[B]

You just heard their voices. You got. Became friends with them and connected to them only from their hearing their voices across the the hall.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's so crazy. And your intention, you wanted to write their names because you wanted to let them know they're okay, that their families know that they were okay.

[A]

Let them know they're okay. Saeed. I've been talking to Saeed Awada, his guy who was across from me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Talking to his, his wife all the time.

[B]

He's still in prison.

[A]

He's still in prison. He's still in Rodeo. Valin just recently got moved to Yarde.

[B]

Cuz none of these people can communicate with their families.

[A]

No. But now Valin can because he's in Yade.

[B]

Yeah. But while they're in Rodeo, Rodeo is like the top.

[A]

Like no.

[B]

No communication.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Did they ask you to do that or was that something that you thought I'm going to take?

[A]

I was. So while this guy was like doing the messiah thing, I was telling him, I was like, listen, I can't promise I could help out in any way, but I could, I could try, you know, I could try to help you guys out. And then just through like meeting all these other guys that got out of prison, like I've been able to help like a lot of other prisoners to like contact their families with like media so they get eyes and ears on, you know, on their stories, you know, stuff like that.

[B]

So the first day you're out, you're in this resort and you go to try and figure out who the family members are and how you can get in touch with them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That is pretty incredible.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

That is amazing. I, I don't think most people would probably just want to. I don't do everything but have to think about their time in prison.

[A]

That day, you know, it was, I was like, I couldn't tell that to them and then like not do it, you know, that would be, that's just wrong, you know.

[B]

So you felt like an obligation to do something.

[A]

You Know, especially like being American, like, like everybody's like, oh, let's say the American story. Like, no, nobody's like, oh, let's hear this Venezuelan guy story. Oh, which one do we choose? There's hundreds of them. There's thousands of them. You know, nobody's like doing that. So I was like, I can help out and get these guys story out there, you know.

[B]

So you felt like you were privileged and in the middle of all that tragedy and despair, there was privilege.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, there's still guys in there just because they're. They're from a country that doesn't, you know, I don't want to say care, but isn't like really looking for them? Like, when I got out, like, I was like contacting Saeed's embassy and everything because he's Lebanese Peruvian. So I was like contacting Peru, but his wife was like, I think you should contact the Lebanese embassy. And I call him up. They're like, oh, yeah, call up the embassy in Venezuela. I'm like, yeah, as if that's going to help.

[B]

Right. So, you know, nobody's trying to get him out.

[A]

No. So I'm. I'm worried about that, you know, I'm really worried, you know, about the guys that are from, I guess, the countries with the weaker passports, you know, so.

[B]

And then what was your return like when you finally arrived in New York? Who was waiting for you?

[A]

So my aunt had like. She was like, just, we're not going to the airport to get you. We're going to like, send a car for you and like, just drive you home and like that. That's what happened. Yeah.

[B]

And then you got home and she was.

[A]

Got home. She was there breaking down, crying and everything, you know.

[B]

What did it feel like for you?

[A]

I was just like, I'm home, you know, thank God I'm out of there. Thank God time's not wasted anymore. You know, that was. That was my big thing. I was just like, I'm just wasting my life in the cell for no reason. All. And like, all these guys just wasted. We're all wasting our lives in here. We didn't do nothing. This isn't crime and punishment. This is just imprisonment for no reason.

[B]

James, how old are you?

[A]

28.

[B]

It's funny, you're 28 and you're in such a rush to live at the same time, right? You're. There's a feeling that you're. You. I mean, you spent a horrendous one month, but what was worrying you mostly was the waste of Time and all the places you still want to visit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And how you were. Yeah. This was just wasting your time, stopping you, preventing you from going and exploring all those places. And you're still so young, you know, you only get.

[A]

But you only get, you know, one go around, you know, So, I mean,

[B]

I'm saying rush to live is not a bad thing. I think it's good to be restless. So there was never a moment people. When. I think once people go through traumatic events like this, I mean, particularly for the family members back home. Right. That worried so much about you. Again, my experience does not compare at all with yours, but just the fact that I was sort of stuck in a place, which in my case was Niger, was stuck there without my control of being able to get out. We never. I didn't know when I was going to be able to get out of there, but people often ask me, when you were. When you were there and you're going through this, were you thinking that you will never want to travel again? Did. Did. I'm sorry. When I asked you the same question, did it ever cross your mind, like, this sucks and I don't ever want to be in a foreign land again?

[A]

No, I was like, I kind of don't want to be stuck in this foreign land because I want to go to a different foreign land, you know, like, this is, like, it's not. I. I feel like that's so, like, defeatist, you know, I think people take

[B]

trauma different ways, you know? You know?

[A]

Right. But I mean, more so from the people asking the question, you know, like.

[B]

Yes, but I would say that if it's a family member that is concerned about you and is wanting you not to do this to them again. Right. They have every right to do so. Right.

[A]

Yeah, that. That's different. That's why, like, I think this. This podcast might be the way I'm, like, breaking it to my family that I haven't told not I plan to travel again.

[B]

Really?

[A]

No, because like you said, it's so hard to, you know, process that, you know, I think a lot of people, like, live very fearfully for, like, what the world has out there. Because, like I said, like, you'll name. I'll name a country and, like, the blow don't go there. That's a dangerous place, you know, and it's like, it's not, but it can be, you know?

[B]

Yeah, I agree with you. And when I was filming all these years, film filming, trafficked, and the other work that I've done in these black markets, and going to these, like, you know, dangerous places around the world. I never wanted the message to be about how the world is a dangerous place. I want the message to be about no matter how far you travel or how far away from your own comfort you travel, that you're still going to find incredible people and you're still going to be able to connect on a human level with people that are completely different from you and have nothing in common with you. Right. And that's what's so beautiful about world we live in. And that's what I love about traveling, too. Right. But I. And I. But I do think also that there's something, you know, like, they say that you always. You grow. You especially grow when you're stepping outside your comfort zone. Right. Doing something every day that makes you feel a little uncomfortable is actually good for you. It actually makes you grow and learn more about yourself and the world around you. Right.

[A]

No, I think so, too. Yeah.

[B]

So you still feel that way. Obviously, you still want to travel, and there's nothing that has prevented you from wanting to do that, to continue.

[A]

Yeah. Like, I feel like I don't want this experience to, like, change the way I view the world. Like. Like, I. I do feel like if I'm just in a random, like, small town in some country, like, that there's something there, like a story to tell there, you know, at least something to see. Like there's people that, you know, are around. Like, there's something to experience there, you know, and learn and learn. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So what has this experience taught you, you think?

[A]

Not. Nothing. This. Not. I've learned nothing. Definitely the other side of it. The other side of what has it

[B]

taught you about yourself, I guess is the question.

[A]

Just another Tuesday for me, you know, Sometimes I felt like that in prison, though. I was like, I would be the one out of all my friends to end up in a Venezuelan prison, you know? Like, this is so fitting for me. You know, I was like. I was like. I was, like, stuck in quicksand. Helped a guy, saved a guy from quicksand before. I was like, I was in a refugee camp. Like, this is all just part of the experience. Yeah, this is. I'm doing my, you know, Indiana Jones impression. I guess I'm Lara Croft or something, you know, unfortunately. But, no, being in there, like, showed me the other side of, like, I guess the danger of everything, you know, it's like. It's a difference of, like, knowing the dangers there and actually experiencing the danger there, you know, so it's like this is like my experience to be, like, experience the other half of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, because, like, I don't know if you were like, when you travel, like, if you do like hostels or anything, but every story, every negative story you hear in a hostel of like somebody's misfortune, it's always like, I met this guy at this hostel who told me the story of this other person that knows this guy that experienced something really bad, you know, so you always felt like it was so far 6

[B]

degree separation that it wasn't something that was going to happen to you, but you still haven't answered. What did you learn about yourself from being from that this experience? Like, was there stuff?

[A]

I guess I can go through it. Like, if I, if, if, if I have to go through it, like, if I'm forced to go through it, I can go through it. I'm not going to break and like, I'm not going to sell out my cellmates for hamburgers and fries and, and really be in solidarity with the guys that are around me, which I had, I think I'd gone through before, like during like the, the protests and pandemic, like back in 2020, where like the cops were beating me, arrested me, and all that sort of stuff. And I was every. Just right back out with solidarity with the guys, like, not, not at home, just like being in the streets with them. And I carried that same energy into like the prison. I was like, hey, guys, if you guys, you guys see C1 and B1, revolting, like, if, you know, when it's your turn, like, I'm here with y', all, you know, like, if you guys want to fight back, even if they just beat us, you know, throw us back on ourselves, like, just show some sort of being alive, like, I'll be, I'll be right here with you guys, you know, and yeah, I think that's

[B]

one of the things that has most surprised me about this conversation is your resiliency is you can see you're resilient. But even like, psychologically, like, you've gone through a lot and I know it was very recent, but still the way that you're able to talk about it. Yeah, I think just shows how resilient you are. Like, you can, you can take a punch.

[A]

Thanks.

[B]

And, and then the fact that at the end, the one thing that the first thing you did when you got out was actually trying to figure out how to make life better for the people on the inside is pretty special.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

It's true. I hope you Know that I don't think most people would do that. I think it's pretty. Pretty special.

[A]

I think we would do that. I think most people would. I hope we would. You know, I've been helped a lot in my travels, you know, and I think I just try to help it as much as I can. As much as I've been helped, you know, I've been helped a lot, a lot through life, you know, so.

[B]

So your family doesn't know you're going to travel again? When are you traveling again?

[A]

No, we need to edit that out, guys. Okay. We're not editing that out.

[B]

It's a great moment. When are you traveling again?

[A]

I'm trying to just save up some money to go to Morocco, so maybe hopefully like, by like, mid to late spring, you know, so. So pretty soon.

[B]

Yeah. You know, I was right back out there.

[A]

I was thinking April, but it's a little. Little too soon. A little too soon. Yeah.

[B]

And one more thing only you did a reintegration program here, right? Like, what was it they gave you? Therapy. Therapy and just to help you readjust or what was it?

[A]

First of all, great program. Like, if I could be, like, an advocate for, like, you know, the PISA program, like, for returning hostages and prisoners. So good. Really so good. You fly down to Texas and they bring you through every single medical procedure that they can to, like, test you out, like, test things on you and stuff like that. See. See what's wrong with you physically. And then they do the same thing for, like, your mental. And they just, like. They do it in this way. Like, they just set somebody up with you, and, you know, you just talk. You know, talk about stuff, process stuff.

[B]

Was it helpful?

[A]

Oh, super helpful. And they. They, like, bring in, like, a shopping spree. Like, it was like, it was cold in Texas. And, like, we. We had, like, all Texas clothes, so they're like, all right. You guys can buy, like, coats and, like, sneakers and. And. And. And. And pants and. And everything. I'm like, okay. And like, a legit shopping spree in, like, the thing.

[B]

I was like, wow, it's pretty cool. And that you. They said that you. You're still. You're still physically. You have some damage in your arms. You said some nerve damage from the chaining and the.

[A]

Yeah, I get it. It's not. It's not, like, bad. It's like, if you, like, touch around, like, my wrists, like, I'll feel like, like, electricity from, like, my tips to, like, my. Almost, like, down to my elbow. And, like, they were telling me like, there's like a. A singular nerve that, like, goes through there. So that makes sense, I guess, to like, make a tight fist, still squeeze, still do Muay Thai and stuff? I had it.

[B]

And you're cleared of all the parasites and all the other stuff that you had?

[A]

I sure hope so.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I got, like, pretty badly sickly last week, and I was like. I went to the hospital, got some more medicine, so hopefully that cleared everything up, you know, But I don't know.

[B]

And mentally you're good?

[A]

Yeah. You know, they could have probably tested some drug on me in there. I'm. I'm a walking contagion, you know? I don't know.

[B]

And you're in touch with all these families, right, still?

[A]

Yeah, not a lot of them. I. I just can't find it. I. I have no idea what these guys look like. And there's, you know, there's like, lots of people. How many names? Yeah, you know, Lenny Rodriguez's are there. You know, like, I. It's. It's not really possible, you know, but the guys I did find, like, I'm talking to my. My old cellmate's sister. He's got moved to a new prison where he can, like, communicate. Communicate. Get stuff from her. Talking to the guy across me say, you know, water. Talking to his wife all the time. Just trying to, like. Just trying to get, like, people to, like, just know these guys are still in there and, like, maybe, like, try to, like, help contact embassies or maybe, like, somebody of some sort of importance would, like, see that that guy's still in there, you know. Completely innocent guy, by the way. You know, it's not like these guys committed any crimes, you know, Maybe, like, that could help out, you know. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, that's pretty amazing. Well, James, it's been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on the Hidden Third.

[A]

Thank you for having me.