“The Hangover” Producer Who Walked Away From Hollywood to Fix America's Prison System

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Hidden Third

Episode: “The Hangover” Producer Who Walked Away From Hollywood to Fix America's Prison System

Host: Mariana van Zeller
Guest: Scott Budnick
Date: May 13, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, journalist Mariana van Zeller sits down with Scott Budnick—the acclaimed Hollywood producer behind hits like The Hangover, Just Mercy, and War Dogs—who made the extraordinary decision to leave a booming film career to dedicate himself to criminal justice reform. Budnick recounts his transition from movie sets to juvenile halls, his founding of the Anti-Recidivism Coalition (ARC), and why he believes hope and purpose—not punishment—are keys to transforming lives and America's prison system. The conversation is at once candid, emotional, and pragmatic, shining a light on both the brokenness and possibilities within U.S. criminal justice.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Scott Budnick’s Early Life, Film Career, and Transition

• Roots in Georgia & Influence of Film: Budnick describes his upbringing in Georgia, attraction to empathetic storytelling, and obsession with films like Stand By Me.

  “I think everything changed for me when I saw Stand By Me, which is like, to me, one of the best coming of age movies.” —Scott Budnick (02:20)

• Switch From Pre-Med to Film: While in college, Budnick pivoted from pre-med after catching the “movie bug” as an extra.
• First Breaks in Hollywood: Interned at Baywatch and United Talent Agency before working with director Todd Phillips for 14 years, contributing to films like Old School, Starsky & Hutch, and The Hangover franchise.
• On Producing: Explained the broad, hands-on role of a producer, from script development to hiring hundreds of crew, and how the function evolved over his career.

  “The main part of my job...is working with writers, developing scripts, taking an idea and making it a movie.” (05:51)

• Shift in Purpose: Over time, Budnick’s fulfillment moved away from set life to social impact. He describes feeling called away from the grind of production to answer a sense of purpose in criminal justice.

Awakening to Injustice (Juvenile Justice)

• The Inciting Incident: Reading a Rolling Stone article about teens sentenced to life without parole for a minor crime ignited his activism.

  “Even the three that never touched the knife got life without parole in prison. That use of the felony murder rule...boggled. It didn’t align with any common sense.” (10:20)

• First Visit to Juvenile Hall: A visit to Sylmar Juvenile Hall in LA was a turning point. He was struck by the harsh sentences youth received and the lack of hope.

  “The first thing I saw was like a 9 year old looking kid shackled up... Then a 15-year-old told me he was sentenced to 300 years to life for standing next to his friend with a gun.” (12:11)

The Power of Consistency and Listening

• Long-term Commitment: Budnick began weekly teaching and mentoring at juvenile hall, a routine he’s maintained for 22 years.
• On Building Trust: Consistency is crucial for youth used to abandoned promises:

  “Consistency is everything. I have to be consistent.” (13:41)

• Effective Mentorship: Learned quickly that listening, not lecturing, is the key to connection and growth.

  “Being a great listener was the key to everything. Right? People just want to be heard.” (18:32)

Roots of Crime and Paths to Change

• Core Causes: Budnick identifies trauma and hopelessness as root causes of criminal behavior; hope is the foundation for rehabilitation.

  “Trauma and hopelessness is what creates a criminal... Hope is what gets people out.” (22:16)

• Purpose Over Punishment:

  “People don’t change through punishment, they change through purpose. I’m a big believer in accountability...but I believe in doing it humanely and giving them purpose while they're paying their debt.” (23:09)

Launching and Scaling ARC (Anti-Recidivism Coalition)

• Founding ARC: Began as an informal volunteer network, became formal after Budnick left Hollywood, started the nonprofit out of his garage.

  “After Hangover 3 and War Dogs, I took a 90% pay cut, left my position of power, and started ARC. Best five years of my life.” (31:56)

• Growth: From 3 employees and a $700k budget to over 200 employees, $25 million budget, and statewide reach.
• Unique Approach: 80% of staff are formerly incarcerated, making empathy and credibility their core competencies.

  “Who knows how to help young people better than somebody who was that young person, caught that life sentence, paid a debt... They’re going to be way more effective than this white Jewish movie producer, right?” (32:37)

• Holistic Work: ARC offers housing, education, job training, union apprenticeships, policy advocacy, and changes the narrative on incarceration.

Policy & Impact: Changing Lives and Laws

• Juvenile Sentencing Reform: Helped pass California’s Senate Bill 260, making thousands eligible for parole after long sentences.

  “We passed a bill saying if you committed a crime under 18 and got a life sentence, you’d become eligible for the parole board.” (42:01)

• Personal Stories of Reform: Relates moving stories, such as “the worst of the worst” old man at Pelican Bay who cried and shook pinkies with Budnick through the cell:

  “This is the first day I’ve ever felt hope in my life... You’re the first human being I’ve touched in 30 years.” (00:41/44:06)

• Reentry and Redemption: Explains how serving with purpose and hope has helped countless “lifers” return and contribute to society as mentors, tutors, and advocates.

The System’s Problems—and Fixes

• Fundamental Flaws: Decries life without parole, especially for youth, as barbaric and hope-extinguishing.

  “That is a hopeless sentence that doesn’t inspire any redemption, change, etc. It’s just desperation.” (37:02)

• Economic Arguments: Rehabilitation is not only humane but cost-effective.

  “For every dollar you spend in education in prison, it’s $5 that you’re saving… The US spends like $80 billion a year in prisons. It’s insane.” (39:45)

• Barriers to Change: Politicians and media stoke fear, using crime as a wedge issue, and victims as props.

  “When people in society start feeling scared because of propaganda... they start to tighten up and be like, ‘Lock them up, throw away the key. We want to feel safe at night.’” (40:29)

Storytelling and Social Impact Films

• Return to Filmmaking With Purpose: After years out, Budnick realized his “superpower” was telling stories that create empathy—returning to Hollywood to found One Community.

  “You can tell a story about injustice in a system...and have tens of millions of people see that movie.” (35:20)

• Notable Projects: Just Mercy (inspired by Bryan Stevenson’s work), Nona’s (with Vince Vaughn), documentaries on Lewis Hamilton and others; upcoming feature films.
• Entertaining With a Message: Social impact works when integrated into compelling, accessible entertainment—not prestige “broccoli.”

  “If you want to move lots and lots of people...you’re in a much better place with Will and Grace than you are with Milk.” (49:08)

The Ripple Effect of Hope

• Transformative Outcomes: Even the most marginalized can become community pillars.
• Ripple Effect:

  “Hurt people, hurt people. Healed people heal people... The ripple effect of that is like dozens and dozens of lives.” (39:09)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Pinky-Finger Moment at Pelican Bay

  “This is the first day I've ever felt hope in my life... You're the first human being I've touched in 30 years.”
  —Scott Budnick, recalling a life-changed by criminal justice reform (00:41, 44:06)

• On The Nature of Change

  “People don’t change through punishment, they change through purpose.” —Mariana van Zeller recalling Scott's maxim (23:09)

• On The Value of Hope

  “Without hope, the change isn’t coming.” —Scott Budnick (22:56)

• On ARC’s Mission

  “We’re a support network of thousands of men and women who spent time in prison and allies like me who are just a supportive family... and changing how people see people who have been incarcerated.” —Scott Budnick (33:12)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Hollywood Beginnings & Film Career: 02:10–08:59
• Turning to Justice Reform—First Juvenile Hall Visit: 10:11–13:14
• Weekly Commitment to Youth & Mentorship: 13:14–16:27
• Roots of Empathy & Upbringing: 14:14–16:27
• Listening, Not Lecturing: 17:31–18:44
• What Leads to Crime? 22:06–22:56
• People Change Through Purpose: 23:09–24:15
• ARC’s Origin and Growth: 30:35–33:12
• Why Lived Experience Matters: 32:13–33:02
• Juvenile Sentencing Reform—Pelican Bay Story: 41:43–45:12
• Hope & Redemption Stories: 42:00–46:38
• On Why America Resists Reform: 40:26–41:43
• One Community: Returning to Film for Impact: 34:23–35:57, 46:44–49:49
• Broccoli With Cheese—Entertainment That Changes Minds: 48:14–49:49

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Conclusion

Scott Budnick’s journey is a rare blend of Hollywood storytelling, relentless activism, and human connection. From producing blockbusters to building a nonprofit from scratch, Budnick believes that by instilling hope and supporting those most marginalized, not only can lives be transformed, but so can entire systems. His work—on screen and off—argues forcefully that healing, purpose, and empathy are the true engines of social change.

For more on hidden economies, criminal justice, and voices from the underground, subscribe to The Hidden Third.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

and this old man, known as the worst of the worst started crying on the other side of this cage. And he said, this is the first day I've ever felt hope in my life. And I'm watching this old man cry and like, there's these little holes in the cage. So I stuck my pinky finger through the cage and he stuck his pinky finger and we shook pinkies. And he said, I want to thank you so much and also let you know you're the first guy per human being I've touched in 30 years.

[A]

Okay. Scott Butnick, you've produced some of the biggest films in Hollywood, from the Hangover to Just Mercy to War Dogs, which if people haven't watched, they should. It's about the true story of two friends who became international arms dealers and got in way, way over their heads. I actually interviewed David Packhouse for something that I did a while back.

[B]

How was that?

[A]

It was great. He's great. He's so fun. I mean, the story is incredible. It's insane. I want to have him back on this podcast. He's awesome. But that's not why I wanted you here. It's not because of your Hollywood career. At the height of your Hollywood career, actually, you decided to walk away from everything after visiting a juvenile detention center here in LA. And for the past 20 years, you've dedicated your life to one of the most broken systems in America, the criminal justice system. So thank you so much for coming to the 103rd.

[B]

Such an honor to be here with you.

[A]

Okay, so I want to. I know we. We don't have a lot of time, but I wanted to talk a little bit about the. What got made you become interested in film to start with. You grew up in Georgia, right?

[B]

Grew up in Georgia was very, I don't know, heavily Influenced by film. I think it was a pretty empathetic kid. So, like, I think everything changed for me when I saw Stand By Me, which is like, to me, one of like the best coming of age movies.

[A]

Favorite film? Yeah.

[B]

Yep. R.I.P. rob Reiner.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Incredible work on that one. And so just like being very affected emotionally and empathetically by films. And then I was pre med and I went on a movie set as an extra, a Civil War miniseries for tnt and just like caught the bug. And that was it. It was like change of major hard left turn. And started working for a casting director in Atlanta. And while I went to college, went that route.

[A]

And your parents were supportive? They liked the idea.

[B]

Yeah. It's funny. My dad's. My dad's a doctor. And so I had to go to him and be like, hey, I'm not gonna do this. And he's in. His response was like, thank God. Like, you have horrible ADD And I didn't think you were gonna make it through med school. So I was like. Like, he was like, relieved to know I wanted to go in the movie business and not be a doctor.

[A]

Do you have horrible ADD by the way?

[B]

Yeah, I have, like, I have add. I have pretty bad add. I have ocd. I don't know. Channel it to become your superpowers. Right. Just not good at sitting down for long. That's why I'm glad. Which is why we're just.

[A]

It usually is. We're making you an exception right now. Okay, so then you moved. At what point did you move here? And what was sort of your first successes in film?

[B]

Yeah. Did a lot of casting in Atlanta. Came out here to intern on the summers. Summer of 97 and 98. My first internship was Baywatch.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Which has now been resurrected. They're doing another. They just started Baywatch. So I got to intern on the beach 12 hours a day every day, which is amazing. Then intern at uta, United Talent Agency, Big talent agency. And then decided to move out here, graduated Emory, packed up the U haul, drove cross country and came four year degree. I'm like, I'm gonna get a job. And like four or five months later, like, no job. And God bless Todd Phillips. He would. He was coming out a film school, about to do his first narrative film called Road Trip.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he knew what I had done in Atlanta. The UPM had actually. And they. They asked me to come back and work in my hometown on a movie as a casting assistant. And I just hustled hard and got noticed. And a couple weeks into the production he fired his assistant and Todd Phillips is like I want Budnik to be my assistant. And that was the next 14 years together.

[A]

That's amazing. Sort of your big breakthrough as a act, a producer. Was it with him? Was it with Todd?

[B]

Yeah, it was with him. So kind of was like a mini producer on Old School and then like got a real producer credit on Starsky and Hutch, Ben Stiller, Owen Wilson, Snoop. And I was basically as the lowest rung producer on the movie. The other like very seasoned producers are like it's your job to make sure Snoop is here every day on time and sober. And I'm so friggin good. Snoop was sober every day of the shoot. He did not smoke weed. He was actually coaching his kids football team. So that was kind of why. But it was because of you. He was, it wasn't because of me. Is unbelievably responsible and made me look good.

[A]

So tell me what is. I don't think most people know what a producer actually. What's your job as a producer in Hollywood?

[B]

So I would say like the main part of my job apart from keeping Snoop sober. Yeah, I think I'd say the May part. Main part of my job throughout either working for Todd or what I'm doing now is working with writers, coming up with ideas, developing scripts, taking a book and making it a movie. Taking an idea and making a movie. I mean the Hangover was a two sentence idea that the writers pitched me and we turned it into a 90 minute movie. Project X was a. Yeah, a YouTube video that we ended up turning into a 90 minute movie. War Dogs was a Rolling Stone magazine article that I bought the rights to and developed into a movie. So really figure figuring out great stories, great IP and getting writers who have like a very distinctive voice to adapt them in German film. I think that's the main job as a producer. Once we have a script that's good, then it's budgeting it, getting someone to pay for it, say yes to it, casting it, hiring 400 crew, managing the process, putting out fires.

[A]

Yeah, it's a huge getting it, getting

[B]

through production, having everything shot in the can, sitting in an editing room for six months editing the movie, then working on marketing and distribution and posters and trailers and you know it's, it's a two year process to produce one movie.

[A]

Yeah. What's your favorite part of the job?

[B]

I would say my favorite part of the job is meeting very interesting, very creative like auteurs, storytellers, actors. I think the creative people I meet through the process is the most fun part of it.

[A]

What's your least favorite part of the

[B]

job at this point in my career, like, it's funny. What is my least favorite part of the job now was my most favorite part of the job when I started. All I wanted when I started was to be on set and be in the middle of the action. Now I don't want to even look at the set.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Well, why. Why did you want to interview me? It wasn't because the movie business, right? So, like, to me, if I'm chained to a chair on a set 12 hours a day, I'm not able to go do the things that give me purpose, right? And I feel like I'm missing out on so much of, like, what gives me purpose and why I'm put on this earth. So now being into in a position where I can finance movies through one community, where I have a team of people that can go on set, where I can stop by and visit for half a day and then go back to doing things that make an impact in people's lives. Like that to me, like the great part of one community, too. In the movies we do, we now run these massive impact campaigns. So now I can mix the world of social impact with the world of filmmaking. And so I just. Like on the third Hangover movie, I was on set 12 hours a day. You would think it would have been the most amazing experience with those actors all day long in Vegas. And I was just getting calls from kids, getting released from prison and calls from the governor of California and unable to do all these things that I love doing because I was just sitting on set 12 hours a day.

[A]

Hey, everyone. So I have something really important I wanted to share with you all. For more than 20 years, I've gone to places that most people would never willingly step into. Cartel territory, scam compounds, trafficking networks. And what I've learned is that the most important stories are the hardest ones to share. Not because people don't want to watch these stories, but because corporations, advertisers, and algorithms now decide what gets made and what doesn't. The Hidden Third exists outside all of that. No network censorship, no sponsor conflicts, no compromises. And the only way to keep it that way is to build it directly with you. That's why I created the Hidden Third. Patreon Bonus episodes Behind the scenes from the field, early access to new episodes, a direct line to me and the reporting as it happens, and much, much more. If you're still watching this right now, you're exactly who I built this for. So join [e-mail] thehidden third the link is below. And now back to the conversation. Okay, so let's talk about that part of your life. When did it all start? 2003. Right.

[B]

So it all started in 2004. I had already been interested in the issue and I was already kind of working on one case.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Funny enough, when I was on Baywatch, I read a Rolling Stone magazine article about four youth that were sentenced to life without parole in prison for like a backyard weed deal gone wrong. When one of the kids pulled out a pocket knife and stabbed one of the kids that was dealing the drugs. And even the three that never touched the knife got life without parole in prison.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And I felt like that use of the felony murder rule was just so. It just boggled. It didn't align with any common sense to me. And so I got involved in that one case just because, like, again, like movies and, and just being brought up around fighting against injustice and inequality just made my blood boil. And then.

[A]

So wait, so when you got involved with that case you were thinking of making into a movie, not actually getting involved in the.

[B]

No, I was getting. No, no. Getting involved in getting involved with those kids and trying to help them with their case. And then in 2004, I met a friend when I was working on an old school who asked me to come down to Sylmar Juvenile hall and be a part of his creative writing class and be a guest speaker one day for the youth. So I went down to juvenile hall in the San Fernando Valley. When I walked into that juvenile hall, the first thing I saw was like a 9 year old looking kid shackled up and being escorted by officers. And it was just like a very glaring visual. And then they're like, we're taking you into the prison within the prison. We're taking you into the compound where we house the kids being charged with violent crimes. And so I went back there and I was nervous and I, we, we sat in this classroom and these kids started walking in and they were just kids. And I said to the young man next to me, who was 15 years old and would look at 11, I said, how was your week? He said, it was a really bad week. I just got sentenced to 300 years to life in prison. And like, I stopped and I'm like, what did you do? Probably a question I shouldn't have asked, right? And he said, I stood next to my friend that shot the victim in the butt. The victim was in and out of the hospital in a day. And for standing next to the guy with the gun, I got 300 years of life. And I just knew in that moment that if, like, if that was my son with my resources, would be out on bail, he wouldn't be sitting in that juvenile hall, and he'd have the best lawyer in LA and would probably get probation, Right. For not touching a gun when someone was shot in the butt.

[A]

Right?

[B]

But this kid who went through the foster care system and the juvenile justice system, this kid was going to prison for 300 years of life. And that was just fundamentally, really unfair to me. And so I said to those kids on that day in that class, I'm like, if you guys are going to work on improving yourself and growing and changing, like, I'm going to start coming in and teaching that class every week. That was. That first day was February 8, 2004. And every week I'm in town, I'm there 22 years later, and it is.

[A]

You still do it?

[B]

Still do it, yeah. Fabian used to come in with me. It was. It's every week. It's like the. My favorite time of the week, those three hours. Saturday morning, 9 to 12, Somar Juvenile Hall.

[A]

Wow. And you teach writing and storytelling, correct?

[B]

I did. Now it's more mentoring and reentry and just, like, working one on one with young people, helping them get through their traumas and their issues.

[A]

Wow. And you still do it every single week for 22 years. That is incredible.

[B]

I mean, I feel like this group of young people are used to, like, adults coming in and out of their lives and making promises that they don't keep. And so to me, consistency is everything. Like, I have to be consistent.

[A]

Do you have kids?

[B]

I do. I raised a stepson from 8 to 22, and I raised my nephew from, like, 10 to 22.

[A]

Have you taken them with you?

[B]

Oh, yeah. They.

[A]

They.

[B]

They're. They're, like, fully ingrained, and they, like, know all the guys have gotten out that are part of arc. Like, they know them all. Like, they. They grew up in arc, basically.

[A]

What do you think? It's. What. Is there something that happened to your upbringing or something that your parents taught you? Like, what made you become so committed to a cause like this?

[B]

Great question. No one ever asked that. I would say a few things. I think, number one, my dad was just like, he's the kind of guy, like, on Thanksgiving, you're feeding homeless at the soup kitchen. It's just like, what you're doing, Right? So I think there Was just a. Yeah. Instilled value of, like, service.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And like, being there for the least fortunate. And like, my dad was the kind of guy, we'd go to Waffle House in Atlanta like every weekend morning and my dad, like, would know all the bus boys and like, would be like, fist bumping everybody and talking to everybody and like, this guy kind of who he was and like, he was a doctor, but, like, we would go into his office and I would like, hang out in the lab with all the like, employees that were like, putting everything together. And like, so I think I got that from my dad. And then obviously through seeing films, like, and like, being raised by my parents, like, the issues of injustice and inequality would always come up. And then I started my parents divorce when I was 15. Like, had a profound impact on me and, like, my way of coping. I became a dj. So, like, music kind of saved my life and like, starting a business kind of saved my life at that moment when everything felt like, unstable at 15 in your own mind as a 15 year old. And I started DJing at like, different, like, events in the housing projects around Atlanta. So, like, being able to go from like a doctor's house in suburbia to the housing projects in Atlanta where I was doing a Halloween carnival or Halloween party right. In their community center, and they didn't have anything, like, not even shoes, Right. And so to see the depths of poverty and see the depths of desperation really opened my eyes. And a lot of those kids became my friends. So, like, they would come over to my house.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So, like, my friends growing up when I was a teenager were kids that grew up in the housing projects. So I think all of those things combined to make me very interested in, in helping young people who are incarcerated.

[A]

Yeah, that makes total, total sense. I mean, exposure, right. And realizing that, yeah, proximity, exposure, like knowing that these people that might not look anything like you actually were all human beings. Right. And then, yeah, I think you. You touch upon something like how you're dad treated everybody as something that was very ingrained in my upbringing as well. Always, I was always told by my parents, you get judged not by the way you treat people who have more power than you, but by how you treat people with less power.

[B]

Am I allowed to ask you about your parents?

[A]

Yeah, of course. You can ask me anything you want.

[B]

Where did you grow up and tell me about the two of them.

[A]

I grew up in Portugal. You can tell there's an accent. I grew up in Portugal. Yeah. I mean, I decided to become a journalist because I wanted to impress my dad because he's a very cultured man. He reads a ton. He's always reading books and magazines and was like, okay, I want to do. I want to be very intelligent, very smart, know about the world.

[B]

So I can.

[A]

His name is Eduardo. He lives with us here in la, actually.

[B]

Oh, that's amazing.

[A]

Yeah, he's great. Enough about me. So you started volunteering and what. What did you start learning from your early days? Like, what were the first sort of things that sort of shocked you that you weren't expecting?

[B]

I mean, I think the first thing is, like, a teacher, you feel like you have to lecture. And I think the first thing I learned real quick is, is that, like, I got much further by just listening. So rather than, like, I remember the first day I was in there, I think the lesson. Oh, my God, what was. I forget, maybe it was like, on gratitude or something like that. And it's like the teacher was teaching all about gratitude. And, like, I started. Would start teaching is like, I would give them the word and the definition and, like, use it in a few sentences. And I'd be like, okay, tell me about gratitude. And like, childhood memories that you have where you either were grateful for something or you lacked gratitude around something. And then you just be quiet. You sit back and. And if it's. If you do it that way, they just start talking for 20 minutes, right? You don't have to say another word.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They all start bouncing things off each other. And, like, I found out that just like, being a great listener was the key to everything. Right? People just want to be heard.

[A]

Yeah, 100%.

[B]

They don't want to be lectured to. They don't want. They don't want you to, like, you show them how smart you are and what you need to teach them. You want to be heard. So, like, I've just learned. I think that was a huge lesson.

[A]

It's so true. People often ask me, how is it that I spent so much of my time talking to assassins and scammers and, you know, people in the criminal underworld? And I tell them, you know, they think it's really hard to get these interviews, but a lot of times it's just people just want to be heard and they just want to be understood. These are the people that are the most stereotyped people in our. In the world, right? And we. We get. And my. My team and I, we give them an opportunity, but just like you doing your work as well, we give them an opportunity to just tell their stories

[B]

and can you quickly tell me, of all the people you met in the criminal underworld, who was the most inspiring and who was the scariest?

[A]

Hmm. Well, actually, I have an example for both. In one single episode, which is an episode we did on Assassins, and the first person we interviewed was an assassin here in LA, about 20 minutes from where we're doing this interview right here. And he was really scary, I'd been told. I went there with a connection that I had to the criminal underworld here in la. And the guy who took me there told me from the start that this guy sort of has big mood swings. He can be happy, but he can turn in a minute and so be careful with him. So I started, I met him, he was not very warm from the start. And immediately he showed me his gun and said, if. If this is a fucking setup, I'm gonna kill you guys. So you just. You're warned from now on that if this is a setup, you're all dead. And so we started the interview and the whole time I'm thinking, what if the police shows up? Not because we called the police, because obviously we didn't, but what if they're just, you know, driving around here and then what. What does he. What. What. What happens then? Right? And once I asked him about his family, he got. He didn't get raped. He wasn't very happy. And he ended the he didn't want to do. He didn't want to talk about his feelings or his emotions. So that was the scary. One of the most inspiring interviews was an assassin we interviewed in South Africa, a guy called Jojo, who basically, his parents were killed when he was about nine years old. He was out on the streets, no family, had to figure out a way to survive. Got into the drug business, eventually became a contract killer. And in the interview, he was telling me he only kills bad people, he doesn't kill women or children. And when I asked him, have you thought about what you're doing to the children when you kill the father is the same thing that the, you know, they did to you? He said, I had never thought about that. I never, ever thought about that.

[B]

How old was he?

[A]

He was about 26 years old. the end of the interview, we shut down the cameras. He came to me in tears. He said, no one ever was interested in asking me about my life. I never had a conversation about what I do or who I am. Nobody ever asked me questions about anything. And I'm really seriously consider leaving this because I never thought that I was harming anyone.

[B]

And this really that has to stay with your psyche. Like that. That can't. That can't be something that doesn't affect you. Unless you're just like a true sociopath, of course. How old was the guy in lanza?

[A]

Was about 40 something. Yeah. Older for sure. And more hardened.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

100%. Yeah. But you say. I've heard you say how it's very important to meet people where they are. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Um, and so tell me about some of the stories that you were hearing, like what you've. By this point, and this is before you even started arc, and I want to talk about this, which is the Anti Recidivism Coalition before. But before we talk about this, you've spoken to thousands and thousands of inmates throughout your life by now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What is sort of the common thread and. Yeah. What. What do you think leads people to become an inmate, to. To commit a crime and go to prison?

[B]

Well, I mean, it's. I'll put it just so simply because I think it is so simple. I think trauma and hopelessness is what creates a criminal. Right. And the need and. Or desire to commit crime. And I think hope is what gets people out of a life of crime. And, like, it's such a foo foo word. Right. But it's like hope's the first thing. I mean, obviously after you give someone hope, then they believe in themselves. Then you gotta have resources and you gotta have help, and you have to have all of these things sometimes therapy to go along with it. But, like, without hope, the change isn't coming.

[A]

Right? Yeah. You said something really interesting that I wrote down because I have terrible memory, which was that people don't change through punishment, they change through purpose. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that a little bit of the. The work that you do when you're in there?

[B]

Absolutely. And don't get me wrong, it's like when I say people don't change through punishment. I mean, I feel like I'm a big believer in accountability. Right. I don't mind people being locked up. Right. But I believe in doing it humanely and giving them purpose while they're paying their debt and then using that hope and that purpose and that belief in themselves to, like, set the bar very, very high and not let them kind of dumb it down for themselves. A lot of people are like, oh, it's a success if they don't go back to prison. I'm like, no, it's not a success if they just don't go back to prison and they can't live do a minimum wage job for the rest of their lives and never get out of the hood. And their kids are raised around gay. Like, no, that's not a success to me. Not even getting a job is a success. Not going back to prison, getting a job, turning it into a career, making a living wage, graduating from a four year university. Those are, those are successes, right? Like, so to me, set the bar high, right?

[A]

Do you get for the work you do? Do people say what?

[B]

It's so funny. Yeah. Last night was very, very. Last night was a very tough night.

[A]

What happened?

[B]

We just opened a youth housing for eight to 10 youth who were coming out of the juvenile hall and we're doing college and wanted to continue in their academic pursuits. And we for once decided like, hey, we want to start housing in a decent neighborhood. We don't want to put them in the middle of like the hood, right? Where there's gangs on every corner. So we went to a very decent neighborhood in LA and got a house. And it's incredibly well staffed and it's very structured and these guys are all college students. Well, when the neighbors found out, they went crazy. And we had an open house last night on our first day of being open and 40 neighbors showed up and just screamed at us for three, three hours. We had some of the youth there who were in, like, in going to Northridge and like doing, doing great things and it was so dehumanizing. And like, some of the neighbors are like, we don't even like your mission. Like, get out of here. And some of the, some of the neighbors were, we love your mission, but we just don't want it here. Do it somewhere else. And I'm like, well then where? Because wherever we do it, someone's going to say, we don't want it here. Right? It's like you keep saying, we don't like homeless on the streets, but whenever someone tries to build housing for homeless, you're like, not, but not here, right? So, I mean, I think it's disheartening, the constant not in my backyard. And I remember some woman last night saying to me, well, you're putting this on our street. Like, clearly it's not in your nice neighborhood on your street. I'm like, you don't understand how many formula cars or people come to my house. Yeah, I'll be playing poker this weekend with a dozen formula cars or people at my house. Like, I have no problem with this. Zero. Right? I have no problem with people that are changing their lives. I said to that group, I'm like, okay, I understand A lot of you are angry. Once you get over the anger, because we're here to stay. Once you get over the anger, I'd love for you to figure out, how can I be a mentor? How can I help someone change their life? How can I help show someone a career path like that should? And after we did it, there were like seven or eight people that stayed back afterwards. And they're like, we want to help.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And that gave me a little hope at the end of the night after being screamed at for three hours straight.

[A]

And apart from that, do you get shipped? Do people constantly ask you, like, why are you spending time with people who don't deserve it? Is that something? Oh, no, no, no.

[B]

I think most people I would like, 95% of the people I deal with are very positive about, like, this work. I mean, obviously it sometimes can get political if someone's attacking a governor or a mayor or a DA or whatever it may be, and then it just becomes like political attacks towards other people. But for me, I try to stay out of, like, the left, right, Soft on crime, hard on crime. It's like, just stay in the smart on crime lane. Stay on the I'm constantly want to just here to help young people lane. And I think if you talk to, like, talk to our DA who's known to be kind of hard on crime, Nathan Hockman, they'll tell you, like, I really love the work Arc does and I love the work that Budnick does.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

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[B]

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[A]

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[A]

You call it arc. I call. I don't know why I call it arc. Is it arc?

[B]

Arc thing.

[A]

Okay, so tell me about.

[B]

I mean the funny part about it is like, no one knows what like anti recidivism means. And no one, no one also knows how the name came about. It was Robert Downey Jr. Who said, Budnik, I think you should. We're doing due date at this movie. He's like, budnik, I think you should call it the anti recidivism coalition. And I'm like, robert, no one's going to know what that means. And he's like, that's the point. You educate them. So whether it's arc, whether it's arc, whether it'S anti recidivism coalition, whether no one knows what the hell that means. It just is what it is.

[A]

So tell me about it. How did that idea come about?

[B]

Me and a bunch of other volunteers from Inside Out, Writers, the creative writing program, and chaplains, etc. We were like, had this informal network of people were just helping kids getting out and it started to be like 30 young people got out and we're all trying to help them find jobs and get housing and all these sort of things. Then it became 60, then it became 90. And at some point it's just like, this is nobody's full time job, right? So we just can't handle the amount of young people we're trying to help. So like, I knew in my mind, like, we need to build an infrastructure with actual dedicated staff that are doing this on a day to day basis. And so I try to get that creative writing organization, AR Inside Out Writers, to start like an alumni program so we could do this. But at that point, they weren't willing to do it. The board wasn't willing to do it. I'm like, screw it, I'm gonna do it myself. So after Hangover 3 and War Dogs, I ended up leaving the business. I took a 90 pay cut, I left my position of power and started arc. And it was by far, by leaps and bounds, the best five years of my life. And we had a, in year one, we had a $700,000 budget, three employees, and like started building it out of my garage.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Then got an office, then got a bigger office, then hired nine employees. And then here we are like 12 years later with a $25 million budget and 200 and plus employees and all over California, top to bottom.

[A]

The majority of the employees are actually former inmates themselves, right?

[B]

Yeah. About 80% of our employees are formerly incarcerated. Mostly lifers who went and did over 20, 30 years in prison and just made spectacular change of their lives. And mostly lifers who went in as teenagers and came out as 40 year old men.

[A]

Why is that important to have people who know the system from the inside?

[B]

I mean, I, I just feel like who knows how to help young people better than somebody who was that young person, caught that life sentence, had to pay a debt of 20 or 30 years of their life, come home and they're like, all I want to do is help young people not follow the path I did. Like they're going to be way more effective than this white Jewish movie producer, right?

[A]

Tell me. I, I realize that I'm talking about ARC or ARC as I call it, as if everybody knows what it is, because I know where it is so well. But tell me, tell people what it is. What do you guys do?

[B]

So we're like, we're a support network of thousands of men and women who spend time in prison and allies like me who are just a supportive family. Right. We, we also do direct services, so we have multiple housing programs, we have multiple career and four year university kind of scholarship programs. We have a construction union training program. We have a film and television union training program. We do a lot around incarcerated firefighters and getting folks kind of into careers with Cal Fire. We do a lot around policy change. We've passed like 40 bills in the state of California to make for a more humane criminal justice system. And I think all the last piece is just, like, narrative change, right? Changing how people see people who have been incarcerated.

[A]

Right? So you guys work with people while they're still in prison. As soon as they come out, that you follow them for years after, helping them get back on their feet. You also help with policy work, as you said. And so this new company that you just started, is that. Is the. Because you came back to film, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You left film and then you decided to.

[B]

I just realized. I just realized five years into doing arc, that, like, my superpower was storytelling, to create empathy. Right. And, like, in my mind, I'm like, okay, well, I have the ability to tell a story. I can tell stories in social media in 30 seconds or a minute, Right. I also have the ability to tell 90 minute stories, and I have the ability to get massive distributors like a Netflix or Warner Brothers to distribute something all over the world and spend 30, 60 million dollars marketing it. So, like, started this company, one community, raised money to finance and produce films. And our first movie was just Mercy, Right, which was about an innocent man on death row starring Michael B. Jordan, Jamie Foxx, based on my hero, Bryan Stevenson, who's unbelievable.

[A]

It's based on the work he does as a lawyer in the South.

[B]

Yeah, lawyer in the south on death row. And to be able to do that as the first movie at my new company. Right. To tell Brian's story, to celebrate Brian and the Equal Justice Initiative and all the people he's gotten out of prison, innocent people he's gotten off death row, like, et cetera, was unbelievable. And it's like, it kind of proved the thesis of the company and that, like, you can tell a story about injustice in a system, show the world about injustice in a system, and have a studio like Warner Brothers spending tens of millions of dollars marketing around the world and having tens of millions of people see that movie.

[A]

Yeah, it was such a good movie. Everybody should go watch it because it's really, really good. I watched it when it first came out. Can you tell me, have you. Have you watched the Alabama Solution, by the way?

[B]

I have. In fact, I've watched, like, multiple cuts of it before it was even ready. Because I'm very close with Andrew Jarecki, the filmmaker. I'll be with him in Austin in a couple weeks.

[A]

It's incredible. It's so good. I watched it and Sundance, and I've been telling everybody that comes to the podcast, anytime we have a conversation about prisons, I'LL tell people, like, why have you not watched the Alabama Solution? It's like necessary watching. He was just on Joe Rogan recently. He did a great job explaining, explaining what's wrong with our prison system. Can you tell me what you believe is so sure. The number one problem with our prison system or I guess criminal reform, you talked a little bit about. I think I talk about this often too. How there's a two tier system, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Also for the rich and for the poor and that it's incredibly unfair. Can you talk a little bit about that? But also. Yeah. What if you could change anything? What would be sort of the first thing you would change?

[B]

It's like goes back to like what we talked about with hope. Right. When you have sentences that extinguish all hope. Like life without parole. Right. Life without parole. Especially to a young person whose brain is not fully developed. You're basically saying what you've done now as a young person is going to define you forever. And your only way to redeem yourself and ever get out of this, this prison is in a pine box, in a coffin, as we will you out and put you into the ground because you've died. Right. That's the only way. There's no other way out. That is a hopeless sentence that doesn't inspire any redemption, change, etc. It's just desperation. Right. I believe strongly that virtually all young people have the ability to change. And when you create a sentence that is so barbaric and hopeless, it doesn't allow for that. And that's why literally no European nation has descendants of life without parole. Their max sentence is 20 or 25 years in prison. And so if there's one thing that I would, that I would like to do, if I could wave my magic wand, is eliminate life without parole sentences, especially for young people under the age of 25 whose brains are not fully developed.

[A]

It's not a system of corrections, systems of punishment.

[B]

It really depends where you go. Right. It's like a lot. Most systems aren't. Right. It is a warehouse. Right. I think there's some places and there's some prisons in California that are doing an unbelievable job at rehabilitation. Yeah.

[A]

Definitely not the case in Alabama, that's for sure.

[B]

And literally probably nowhere in the South. Right. So, yeah, it's horrible. I mean, it's. I, I feel like a lot of those prisons just exacerbate trauma.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. Rather than solve it.

[A]

And I think most, most people think, why are we spending resources on criminals? Right. It's the criminal Those resources should be spent on schools or in hospitals. Can you.

[B]

I mean, I would say, like, you know that saying, hurt people, hurt people. Right. Well healed people heal people. Right. If you. If you spend the resources to help someone heal from their own trauma.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And understand why they were creating crime and why that trauma was leading to addiction and other things, they end up becoming the healers. Yeah. Right. They become. They pay it forward. They become the mentors. Right. So that investment in that one person, the ripple effect of that is like dozens and dozens of. Dozens of dozens of lives.

[A]

Yeah. And even in hard numbers, I think it's. For every dollar that you spend in education, in prison, it's $5 that you're saving y. Y. In. In. In prison cost. Right. Because the US spends like $80 billion a year in prisons, in the prison system.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's insane. And so even that. Why is. It's just smart for all of us because at the end of the day, a lot of people are in prison forever, but there's a lot of people, thousands that come out every year backed into society. So we should be trying to do everything we can to make those act, to actually turn it into a correctional system and actually, you know, create better human beings so they're ready for when they come out.

[B]

Amen.

[A]

Right. Why? Why. Why is it so hard to make that change? Why?

[B]

I think it's. I think it's hard because crime becomes a wedge issue in politics, and politicians use victims as a prop at times. Like, I know a lot of victims who have been through horrible injustices. Victims, parents whose kids were murdered who have moved on in their life and have begun to heal their own pain from going through the most awful thing they could have ever gone through. And I've seen prosecutors pull them back into it, inflame their anger again, just to go use them as a prop to score political points. Right. And when people in society start feeling scared because of the propaganda they see on the news, online, because of political campaigns, then they start to tighten up and be like, we don't believe in second chances. We don't believe in investing in this or investing in that. We lock them up, throw away the key. We want to feel safe at night. Right. And I think that's what's kind of the headwinds that are always against us.

[A]

Yeah. We've had a lot of guests on the podcast who've told people who've been, you know, in. In prison and who completely changed their lives and now. Now doing really important work. Can you give me Some examples of the stories that you've heard and people that you know well that have maybe perhaps gone through arc.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Have turned their lives around.

[B]

Yeah, I, I think there's, there's, there's, there's a guy I love. We ended up passing a bill called Senate Bill 260, which was a bill that said if you committed a crime between the, under the age of 18 as a juvenile and got a life sentence so that you would never get out of prison, you would die in prison. This bill would now allow you to go to the parole board at 15, 20 and 25 years. And so someone that had a 300 year to life sentence, like David, who I told you about at the beginning, right. At 15 years old, would now get to go to the parole board at 25 years. And we passed that bill and David was then reduced from 300 to life to 25 to life. With that hope, he got his college degree, he mentored kids. Governor ended up commuting a sentence, and he now is a paid mentor out here in the community, helping kids out here, raising two daughters, doing great. But with that same bill, me and the lawyers that worked on the bill went up to Pelican Bay, which is the most hardcore prison in California, where they've housed the worst of the worst, as they call them. And we were going to the Pelican Bay shoe, which is solitary confinement, where we've had guys in solitary confinement for up to 30 to 35 years. And we pulled everybody out whose sentence was going to be affected by this bill. And I remember sitting in front of this cage that had an old man in it in his 60s. And I said, sir, Scott Budnick, I worked on this bill. We passed it, the governor signed it. I just want to let you know your life sentence is now being reduced to 25 to life. You've already served that time, so you are immediately eligible for a parole hearing. And I want to talk you through that parole hearing. And this old man, known as the worst of the worst started crying on the other side of this cage. And he said, this is the first day I've ever felt hope in my life. And I'm watching this old man cry and like there's these little holes in the cage. So I stuck my pinky finger through the cage and he stuck his pinky finger and we shook pinkies. And he said, I want to thank you so much and also let you know you're the first guy per human being I've touched in 30 years. Oh, God. Right. And so that man with that hope ended up getting out of the shoe after three decades. Went into a general population prison yard. Became a math tutor in the college program because he studied math and solitary confinement. Became a math tutor in the college program, went to the parole board. The parole board found him not a danger to society, and he was released in his 60s and found a wife, got married, has been living his life. Works to help people get out of homelessness. Like, full time works with homeless people. Been out for six, seven, eight years, like, doing amazing.

[A]

Are you making that film?

[B]

I mean. Yeah, it's a movie, Right?

[A]

Right. That's incredible. Are you still in touch with him?

[B]

Oh, yeah, all the time.

[A]

That is incredible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow. How. I mean, you've had such an incredible impact on all these people that, I mean, it must be really incredible to have a feeling that you've had that. That impact on so many people. What impact have they had on you, all these people?

[B]

Oh, man. This is my life. This is like, this what gives me purpose. I feel like it's my oxygen. Right. It's like just being. It's not like I don't feel like I have a savior complex. I may make sure I don't have a savior complex. Right. My least favorite kind of movie is the white savior movie. Right. But I think what I learn and the joy I get out of just being around people who at one point didn't believe in themselves at all, didn't think they have a future, and now to be able to see it through their eyes. Like, we do ARC trips all the time. Take a dozen people DC or New York or Puerto Rico, and we go to different justice systems and see what's going on and just like to travel with them to see, like, most of them. Not been on planes before. Like, every summer, we do a whitewater rafting trip with 60.

[A]

I. You know, I went to visit ARC the day after when you. The day after you got.

[B]

Came back. I love that.

[A]

There was, like, camping gear everywhere.

[B]

Yeah. So we take 60 formerly incarcerated people on a whitewater rafting trip for three days, where they're sleeping on the beach under the stars, rafting 18 miles down the American river, and just to see the joy and the looks on people's faces and the fun that they, like, can't imagine anything better. This is what. This is what. What I live for.

[A]

Yeah. That's amazing. What's a. What's a film with your new. So tell me a little bit about your new production company.

[B]

Yeah. So obviously, just Mercy was the first Last year we put out Nona's, which was Vince Vaughn and a bunch of Italian grandmothers. Right.

[A]

So it's called One Community, by the way.

[B]

It's called One Community. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. And Nona's was the number one movie in the world for five weeks last year. We're really excited about.

[A]

And you're hoping to make content with Impact, right? Is that the idea behind that?

[B]

Making contact with Impact? We just finished two incredible documentaries. We just did the documentary of Lewis Hamilton, the Formula one racer, which is incredible. And we just finished an incredible Red Bull film called Freefall. And we're about to start three films this year. We're doing an incredible boxing film, I call it the Latino Creed, and that's going to start shooting in the fall. We're doing an incredible movie called Puerto Rico with Bad Bunny and Javier Bardem.

[A]

No way.

[B]

Starring an incredible filmmaker named Residente directing that. And then we're doing an incredible, like, crime noir film called My Darling California with Jessica Chastain and Chris Pine and a bunch of others. And so.

[A]

So what's the trick? As you know, I've been doing this show for Nat Geo trafficked for many years now. But it's always. There's an idea that. That people aren't interested in movies or content that matters. That people just want to go at the end of the day to the movies or come home and turn on the TVs and escape. Exactly. What's your thought on that? I think it's bullshit. But you tell me what you think.

[B]

Well, I don't. I think it's true. But here's the big but. I think you can do both at the same time. Right.

[A]

Broccoli with cheese is what I call it.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I think that if you can tell a story that is like, massively socially impactful or can generate incredible amounts of empathy. But do it in genre. Right. Do it as a thriller or a comedy or a horror movie or an action movie. I'll say this like, the reason I started One Community is because I met a guy that led the marriage equality movement and I said, like, what were the game changers that ended up allowed you to legalize gay marriage across the country? Right. He stopped and he said Will and Grace and Modern Family and Glee and Ellen DeGeneres. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's not broccoli. That's pure entertainment. That's like comedy. Will and Grace, right? Right. It was regular people in middle America watching a funny gay couple that loved each other on a TV show and laughing with them. That humanized gay people. Right. It wasn't some prestige drama about, like, I absolutely loved Milk, but it wasn't Milk.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That, like, that helped change the marriage equality movement. Although it was an incredible film. Right. It was Will and Grace.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. So, like, if you want to move lots and lots of people with lots and lots of eyeballs, you're in a much better place with Will and Grace than you are with me.

[A]

I wish Orange is a New Black had that effect on prison population on.

[B]

I think it's something humanized women. Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Yeah. Well, we need more of that.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

That's more that you can do. Well, Scott, thank you so much for coming on the show.

[B]

This was a blast. Like, I really loved it.

[A]

Oh, good. I'm so happy you did.

[B]

I'd like to do a whole podcast about you and your dad, but we'll do that later.

[A]

I'm gonna send you the episode on Assassins. I want you to watch it.

[B]

Yes, that's. I'll start with that.

[A]

It's my broccoli with cheese.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Wild.

[A]

Okay, great. Thank you.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

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