The Hipster Grifter | The Hidden Third with Mariana van Zeller

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Hipster Grifter" | The Hidden Third with Mariana van Zeller (Feb 11, 2026)

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Overview

In this candid and absorbing episode of The Hidden Third, host Mariana van Zeller sits down with Carrie Farrell—better known in the media as the "Hipster Grifter." Their conversation dives deep into Farrell's extraordinary path from childhood in Utah as an adopted Korean-American, to infamous scammer in New York, to prison inmate, and eventually, to published author and advocate for prison reform. Farrell brings humor, self-awareness, and a critical lens to her story, exposing the forces that shaped her, the real lives affected by her crimes, and the challenges of reinvention in the shadow of viral infamy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Adoption, Early Life, and Identity Struggles

• Growing up adopted in Mormon Utah

  • Carrie describes being raised by loving adoptive parents, moving from Phoenix to Salt Lake City after her parents converted to Mormonism ([03:27]).
  • Despite a supportive home, Carrie was acutely aware of her difference and isolation: "I was always hyper aware... realizing that you are very much able to feel multiple ways about the same thing" ([06:28]).
  • Adoption and racial identity created dualities: accepted at home, feeling “othered” at school and church, especially given Mormon teachings around race and gender ([09:42]).
  • Memorable moment: Carrie's use of humor and self-deprecation as a defense mechanism from a young age, e.g., claiming to be a literal “alien” at show and tell ([07:40]).

• The impact of being the “only”

  • Recounts being one of the only Asian kids in school and the confusion and curiosity (sometimes cruelty) of other children ([31:59], [32:20]).
  • Quotes the lack of Asian female visibility: “The only Asian woman anyone could name at the time was Lucy Liu... I was just so different” ([33:59]).

2. The Beginnings of Deceit and Escalation into Crime

• From shoplifting to check fraud

  • Early petty theft as a thrill and relief from pressure; not learning from getting caught shoplifting but seeing her “gift of gab” as powerful ([16:17]).
  • Transitioned to writing bad checks to friends and boyfriends, initially rationalizing she’d repay them before the checks bounced ([19:28]).
  • "It became this thing and eventually just snowballed out of control. And I want to be very clear that I’m the one who was rolling that snowball" ([21:44]).

• Relocation and reinvention

  • Escaped Utah amid mounting warrants (mostly from banks, not individuals—who mostly let things go), and tried for a fresh start in New York ([44:28]).
  • “I did not think about how I had warrants for my arrest and leaving the state is very illegal. I was just... survival” ([44:52]).

• Scamming the Williamsburg indie scene

  • In NYC, she targeted mostly wealthy, white “trust fund” men met at bars and shows, sometimes rationalizing it, sometimes not ([50:38]).
  • Developed a memorable persona, passing funny, flirtatious notes with bold lines (“I want to give you a hand job with my mouth”—signed “Korean Abdul Jabbar”, [53:06]), which furthered both her scams and notoriety.

3. Media, Infamy, and the "Hipster Grifter" Label

• Vice, exposure, and going viral

  • Brief stint as executive assistant at Vice ended when her Utah mugshot and story went viral after a coworker Googled her ([70:31]-[74:28]).
  • Media frenzy included sensational, often racially and sexually charged coverage; the term “Hipster Grifter” was coined by the Observer ([75:14]).

• Distorted narrative and its impact

  • Exasperated by inflated claims (e.g., $60,000+ total theft, which she says was $10–15K with banks being the biggest “victims” ([65:29])).
  • Sex and race were central to the narrative, with one outlet even linking to leaked nude photos ([79:18]).

4. Prison, Humanity, and Redemption

• Life in jail

  • After being outed and going into hiding, was turned in by someone in a band and extradited to Utah ([89:13]).
  • Incarcerated for nearly a year; describes Utah's system as “pay to stay”—inmates are billed daily for jail time ([91:54]).

• Realizations from fellow inmates

  • Profound empathy for other incarcerated women, especially women of color: “...either shouldn’t have [been incarcerated] or were literally surviving” ([28:46]).
  • Quote: “The majority of women there... were defending themselves. They were getting themselves out of a bad situation. It was literally survival.” ([28:46])

• Prison relationships and community

  • Shares how kindness and care were common among inmates, trading ramen, “baking” cakes for birthdays, and supporting each other through hardship ([106:18]).
  • “There was like a weird acceptance... okay, we’re all sort of at the bottom... we band together and we look out for one another...” ([107:35]).

5. Aftermath: Reentry, Shame, and Advocacy

• Post-prison struggles

  • Left prison with no resources, was briefly homeless in Utah before transferring probation and returning to NYC ([113:36]).
  • "Just a good example of showing how hard it can be to even attempt to do the right thing, you know?” ([116:10])

• Redefining her life

  • Eventually met her now-husband, found stability, and leveraged her notoriety for advocacy rather than infamy ([117:41]).
  • Writes, speaks, and works on prison reform, especially for marginalized women ([119:39]).
  • “Now my con is to go up against… the real scammers… All through dark comedy and like, yeah. A salacious Internet presence.” ([114:40], [120:15])

• Media ethics and the cost of a viral story

  • Frustrated but resigned to being forever associated with her crimes; strives to use her story as a “cautionary but uplifting” tale ([124:51]).
  • “I’m so over telling my story, you know… now let’s look to the future… education through entertainment…” ([121:16], [121:45]).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

"The irony of a scammer being born out of a scam is not lost on me." — Carrie Farrell ([04:44])

"Everyone loves to think, ‘oh, everyone’s born good, then they turn bad.’ ...I try not to see good people, bad people; I think of it as people who make good decisions or bad decisions." — Carrie ([26:52])

"One of my defense mechanisms my entire life has been to sort of make fun of myself before others can… so I’ve always been a natural storyteller—whether or not the stories that I’m telling are truthful." — Carrie ([07:40])

"I wanted to assimilate. I didn’t want to be me." — Carrie ([26:50])

"People will take their own paths and they can do what they want. But I feel very strongly about, if you have a platform, you need to use it for good." — Carrie ([125:29])

“If you have a platform, you need to be doing something with it that makes some sort of change…” — Carrie ([125:30])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Topic | Timestamp | |--------------------------------|---------------| | Carrie's adoption & Korean roots | [02:49]–[06:25] | | Mormon upbringing & racial doctrine | [09:42]–[11:42] | | Show-and-tell “alien” story | [07:40] | | Early lying & shoplifting | [13:39]–[16:17] | | First check frauds & escalation | [19:28]–[21:44] | | Leaving Utah for NYC | [44:28]–[46:10] | | Targeting trust fund kids & bar scams | [50:38]–[54:30] | | Memorable flirting lines: "Korean Abdul Jabbar" | [53:06]–[53:41] | | Lying about illness/cancer | [58:56]–[66:08] | | Discovery & media spiral ("Hipster Grifter") | [70:31]–[75:24] | | Media and gender/race narratives | [76:10]–[82:10] | | Going viral, hiding, and wanted posters | [83:22]–[85:20] | | Extradition, jail experience | [93:01]–[97:26] | | Life inside, community, and prison reform | [103:42]–[110:54]| | Aftermath, homelessness, advocacy | [113:27]–[119:55]| | On telling her own story & future goals | [121:16]–[124:51]|

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Tone & Language

Carrie is consistently disarmingly honest, self-effacing, and candid, often injecting dark humor even as she confronts serious regrets and systemic injustices. Mariana meets her with empathy, curiosity, and clear-eyed analysis, allowing for a nuanced, humane portrait of both offender and the world that made her.

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Memorable Moments

• Carrie's deceptively lighthearted “Korean Abdul Jabbar” pick-up note ([53:06])
• Reflecting on her mugshot going viral while she’s riding a crosstown NYC bus ([70:31])
• The engraved iPod she stole from a college graduate ([58:03])
• Discovering fellow inmates baking makeshift birthday “cakes” from commissary treats ([106:18])
• Carrie on her viral label: “Like every hipster, I was like: ‘I’m not a hipster!’ That was the part that I had more of a problem with.” ([75:16])

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Conclusion

The episode deftly unpacks the complexities of identity, harm, accountability, and transformation. Farrell emerges as both a cautionary tale and a testament to the possibility of change, reminding listeners that life on the margins—in underground economies or the penal system—is rarely as clear-cut as the headlines suggest. This conversation is both an entertaining confessional and a call for compassion, nuance, and systemic reform.

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Book plug:
[You’ll Never Believe Me: A Life of Lies, Second Tries, and Things I Should Only Tell My Therapist] — by Carrie Farrell ([127:59])

Transcript

[Carrie Farrell]

This is Coke. Zero sugar with real Coca Cola taste and zero sugar. Listen closely. Hear those bubbles? That's the sound of delicious. Real Coca Cola taste and zero sugar. Ice cold. Ah. Cook. Zero sugar. Real Coca Cola taste, zero sugar. Okay, well, I have to do something to make money. I have to pay rent. I have to eat all of that. You know, I have to survive. And so I was like, okay, what am I going to do here? I don't want to be writing bad checks again. What can I do? And so I started to steal money from people, specifically white trust fund kids who I would meet out at bars and at shows.

[Interviewer]

Carrie, we were actually supposed to have of this conversation a couple months ago. It didn't happen because you were not feeling well at the time. So I'm very happy you're here now. Also, funny story, just before we start that when you were outside with my producer, you mentioned she told you that you could leave your stuff behind there, that there was nothing to worry about. And what did you say?

[Carrie Farrell]

I said, well, I'm the one you have to worry about. Which I thought was really cool. You have a sense of humor about it. Fortunately, now I can be like, well, I have a book that talks about why I can have that sense of humor.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, exactly. I'm gonna introduce you to everybody. Carrie Farrell, welcome to the podcast. Our guest today, you became known as a hipster grifter. Your cons went viral. You even. I mean, you slide and stole money from people. We'll get into that. You also convinced people that you would. You were cancer survivors for some time and all while stealing identities and running scams across at least two states. But also, most importantly, you recently wrote an amazing book that I just started reading and I'm really into.

[Carrie Farrell]

Thank you for saying that. It's amazing.

[Interviewer]

You're super funny and you're a great. And the book is called you'd'll never believe me, A Life of lies, second tries, and things I should only tell my therapist. Yes, this came out last year.

[Carrie Farrell]

Came out last year? Yep, last January. You know, in media we glorify authors as they should be, but it's always like, this is what I want to do. I'm going to sit down and I'm like, I wrote my book by slamming my head into the keyboard. It was a lot of, yeah, almost one sided therapy. But I'm just beyond grateful that people are spending time with my words and in some cases, if they're listening to the audiobook, letting my vocal fry into their brains.

[Interviewer]

Okay, let's Take it all the way back. So you grew up in Salt Lake City?

[Carrie Farrell]

Yep, a suburb of Salt Lake City. I was adopted when I was five months old, and my parents at the time lived in Phoenix. And at one point, you know, the Mormon missionaries came knocking on the door asking if, you know, my parents had time to talk about their Lord and Savior. And they opened the door and they were like, you know, we have more than time. We have an eternity. And so my parents converted and we moved to Salt Lake City when I was 2 years old.

[Interviewer]

And wait, can you tell me a little bit about your adoption story? You're originally from South Korea, is that correct?

[Carrie Farrell]

Yes. Yep. From somewhere around Seoul. I unfortunately, unfortunately don't have much information and likely will not. We can get into it later. But there is a bit of. There's some irony in, you know, Korean adoption and how truthful and legitimate it may or may not be.

[Interviewer]

That's right. We've looked into doing a story about this for. When I was working on Traffic for About Black, about sort of the. There was big, big market of sort of illegal adoptions or at least fraudulent adoptions.

[Carrie Farrell]

Right, exactly. And children and birth mothers were really used as commodities, and a lot of it was relationship building between Korea and South Korea and the U.S. obviously, there's a lot of history between the two. And, yeah, the. The country of South Korea actually last year came out and admitted that a lot of these adoptions were fraudulent, or if not completely fraudulent, you know, the pretense of, you know, telling these single mothers that their children would be sent to the US for an education and that they would be coming back, things like that.

[Interviewer]

So do you think that's what happened to you?

[Carrie Farrell]

I have no idea. I think that, you know, for the bit. It's like the irony of a scammer being born out of a scam is not lost on me. But, yeah, there's really. There's really, I think, no way of me knowing.

[Interviewer]

And do you know what led your. Your adoptive parents to adopt? To go and want to adopt?

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah. So my mother just was unable to have biological children, and, you know, they made the amazing choice and, you know, with the idea that, you know, you don't have to give birth to be a parent. And so I grew up with a really amazing. I mean, I had an amazing childhood. My family was super loving. I was not abused in any way, shape or form. That was actually something that it had been reported that I was telling people, which is not the case. I've always been very, very, very, you Know, it's always been very important to me to, to let people know that I had a great childhood. But all of that is to say, you know, this was throughout the 90s and we just didn't have the resources that we have now. And so, you know, my parents didn't have Reddit or to talk to other adoptive parents. And so I was really raised just kind of as a white person. Like, that's how I identified. That's. Even though I saw myself in the mirror, the thought processes, the way that I viewed the world in a lot of ways was that of all the people around me.

[Interviewer]

And when did you realize first that you were different?

[Carrie Farrell]

I mean, pretty immediately, because I look different. And so my book actually opens with a scene as a child in elementary school where I was being asked, you know, why my face was so flat, like, why my parents, my real parents didn't want me. So I was always hyper aware. And my parents, you know, it provided me with the response to those kinds of comments. But, you know, with it being so based in religion, a lot of those retorts were like, oh, well, you know, God, I was so special to God that, you know, I was sent here basically to be saved. And yeah, that's. There are some issues there. But again, my parents did the best that they could. So a lot of my experience is dualities and realizing that you are very much able to feel multiple ways about the same thing. I can, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Can you tell the story about. There's a great part in your book where you talk about when kids were presenting in the classroom and you had to present a character. Right. Can you talk about that?

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah. So it was show and tell. And I think one of my defense mechanisms my entire life has been to sort of like, make fun of myself before others can. Right. It felt like taking the power away. And so for one show and tell. So I'm a US citizen and I was, I was adopted and then, you know, it took a couple of months, but received my citizenship. However, when I was first in the U.S. i was, you know, a card had been given to my parents that said legal resident alien. And so as a kid, you know, you don't think of aliens as, you know, it was always like extraterrestrial. Right. It was not like people. And so I at show and tell made up this story about like, like being an actual alien and then showing the card as proof. So I think that, you know, I've always been a natural storyteller, whether or not the stories that I'm telling are truthful. That's a difference. That's, that's a different story.

[Interviewer]

And also like big imagination, right?

[Carrie Farrell]

A big imagination. And I think that, you know, I don't want to. My story and my, my book. I'm not trying to blame anything specifically for the reason that I ended up making a lot of poor decisions and, you know, just kind of putting other people's feelings and my own feelings aside. But I do think that, you know, there's a lot to be said about growing up looking the way that I do in a very oppressive, very predominantly white religion.

[Interviewer]

How do you think so how do you think that led to some of your behavior later on? Well, and I don't think, by the way, you're right. I don't think it's blaming anyone. I think that having an understanding of where that came from and how it developed is very important. And having that self awareness is great.

[Carrie Farrell]

I think, for example, you know, the doctrine is no longer within their scripture because that's the thing about the LDS Church is they'll just retract things. You know, it's like Jesus fanfic. They're like, oh, that doesn't fit the narrative anymore. Let's get rid of that. But one of the scriptures, you know, used to say something like, if you had darker skin, you were dark and loathsome because they believe that, you know, everyone was white until people were cursed with darker skin.

[Interviewer]

And so, and this was something that you knew growing up, that that was in the scripture, that in the religion that your parents believed in. Yes, that was talked about around the house.

[Carrie Farrell]

And you know, maybe not so much in the house, but like in church within, like social gatherings within the church. And I, you know, I was a very tan child first of all, but knew that they were talking about me and other people like me. And so the church also has three tiers of heaven. And you cannot get to grade a heaven as a woman unless you're married. But at the same time, I'm being told, oh, no one's ever going to want to marry you because you are cursed, essentially. So, you know, I think it was things like that that I definitely couldn't have verbalized my feelings around at the time, but caused me to really just become, you know, an addict for attention and acceptance and approval for a number of reasons and a number of different kinds of approval. I think I got to a point where I didn't necessarily care if I was being remembered for good things, bad things. I just wanted to be remembered.

[Interviewer]

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[Carrie Farrell]

Of getting on Europe's bad side?

[Interviewer]

The rationale is more like those guys.

[Carrie Farrell]

How is stealth wealth changing retail?

[Interviewer]

You can have taste and still buy dupes.

[Carrie Farrell]

What does a $6.2 million banana have to do with any of us? People don't like the attribution of serious financial value to comedy. Join me, Felix Salmon and my co hosts Emily Peck and Elizabeth Spires as we talk about the most important obscure stories in business and finance. Follow Slate Money, wherever you like to listen.

[Interviewer]

So when did that start? When did your. Yeah, I was gonna say lies, but that sounds. But that's what it was. But yeah. When did it all start?

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, I mean, I think the. I was kind of this like, model, student model, you know, Mormon girl for a long time.

[Interviewer]

Did you have friends at school?

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, I had friends at school. I would say that I was very much like a social butterfly, was able to sort of flit in between these different groups. But it's because I was very good at playing different parts, which, you know, is an asset when it comes to certain things, but not necessarily when you're trying to make like, authentic friendships. So I would say, like, high school is really where it started to. Even if I weren't lying, it was just kind of like, this is the hat that I put on on when I'm with these people. This is the other hat that I put on with These. These people. And, you know, I mean, everyone does that, but I think maybe I took it more seriously and to more of an extreme. I do remember, yeah, I was probably around 16 that I started to. I mean, I think, you know, the freedom that comes with when you're 16. It's like as my. Ironically, as my personal freedoms were sort of expanding, I myself was closing, you know, closing in, you know, myself within these tales I was telling. And it started, I think. I don't want to say this is benign, but like, a lot of people's lies where it's like, your parents are like, how was school? Or, you know, your parents are what? Your parents ask you how was.

[Interviewer]

Oh, right.

[Carrie Farrell]

And you, you know, whatever. Or ditching classes. But then it escalated to. Or I should say it grew to me then shoplifting. And I was doing that with friends of mine. And then it escalated from that over the years to me writing these bad checks to people who cared about me, friends. You know, it wasn't in the beginning. It wasn't random people. It was people who wanted to help. And so I was writing these checks. And it's funny because sometimes I'll go on these, like, Gen Z podcasts where I have to explain what a check is, but, like, literally, it's a piece of paper where you could ascribe any amount, any amount you wanted to any number, and people would, you know, wait.

[Interviewer]

Let'S go back just one second to the shoplifting. Did you ever get caught shoplifting?

[Carrie Farrell]

I did get caught shoplifting, and I was actually. I talked my way out of it and.

[Interviewer]

Did your parents ever find out?

[Carrie Farrell]

They did not. They did not find out. And I think that that's when I realized that the gift of gab is a blessing and a curse.

[Interviewer]

What did you say? And what were you shoplifting?

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, I was shop. Oh, it was so stupid. I mean, aren't all of the things.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I'll tell you my story, too.

[Carrie Farrell]

I would love to.

[Interviewer]

I was caught shoplifting, too.

[Carrie Farrell]

I was, I think.

[Interviewer]

And I was 16 as well.

[Carrie Farrell]

Hair gel or hairspray, Something hair related. So dumb. So dumb. I had a. I don't. I had, like, a magazine with me that I had brought into the store, and I, like, folded the magazine over it. It's like a dumb.

[Interviewer]

A fat magazine.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah. I'm like, why also would I. Who walks into a store just with, like, a magazine? Yeah. And I was caught as I was walking out, and I basically told a story about how, you know, I was having a bad day and I was Just frazzled, and I wasn't thinking properly. And I'm so sorry. I'll pay for it. I didn't mean to just walk out. And they let me pay for it.

[Interviewer]

Wow. Yeah.

[Carrie Farrell]

Fortunately, I had the, like, $3 or whatever it was.

[Interviewer]

And they didn't call your parents or anything? They called my parents.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah. So they called my mom.

[Interviewer]

It was at a big, like, grocery store, like, a big one in my town, where I grew up in Portugal. And for me, it was. It was so stupid. It was chocolate. It was like a fancy chocolate that I really wanted. And at the time, yeah, it was like, something that was happening with my friends. Like, we would go out and shoplift, like, little things. I also did also with my best friend around the same time we went to Zara, and they had the alarm tags on you, and we cut them off. And so we were going around with these, like, this. This one jacket. I remember this, like, black sort of blazer kind of jacket that was so cool. It was like, the coolest thing I'd owned. I loved it. I wore it all time. But then it had a huge hole on the collar from where I'd cut it. So I cut. I stole that. I stole, like, a couple of bikinis. So embarrassing. And then, because these were becoming easy. Yeah. I went to this big store with cameras everywhere and decided I wanted some fancy chocolate and stole it. And then, obviously, the security guard came and called my mom, and that was the last time I ever stole. I was utterly embarrassed, and my mom, you know, gave me a good talk. That was the last time. But.

[Carrie Farrell]

Well, I'm glad you learned your lesson, because. But I unfortunately, did not.

[Interviewer]

I think calling the mother was, like, the key for me, because the conversation she had with me after, I was like, yeah. I mean, this is so stupid.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Okay, so go ahead. This is not me talking. It's you.

[Carrie Farrell]

No, I love to. I mean, I think that's the thing, is that a lot of my story is very relatable to a lot of people for different reasons. But, you know, there are a lot of kids who kind of step over that line and then realize that they need to step back. And then there are other people who are like, oh, well, that was exciting. That was different. That worked. And so then the other foot follows.

[Interviewer]

And what about. Okay, so what about the check? When was the first time you wrote a false check?

[Carrie Farrell]

So I was 17. I want to say 17 or 18. And it was written to a boyfriend of mine, and the. The.

[Interviewer]

So somebody you were dating at the time. And he had checks himself.

[Carrie Farrell]

He had a check.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Carrie Farrell]

Basically what it was is that I had checks. I had a bank account. Obviously, it did not have as much money as I was saying that it did. So my scam, the get was I would say, for whatever reason, my ATM card is not working, but I can still write checks. So, you know, can I write a check for $150 to you? You know, for helping me out? I'll give you $50, whatever it was. And I knew that one of the ways, again, it's really hard for people to understand. And I. I get it. Because for me, a lot of it was like, okay, I know that when you ask someone to do a favor for you, they're more likely then to ask you to do a favor for them. And that is how relationships and friendships can be built. Obviously, that's true, but I just didn't have the right context. There were times where I would be writing these checks because I wrote a few of them to this guy. And then there were a few times where I wrote them to other friends as well. And sometimes every time that I wrote one, I was like, okay, by the time this bounces, you know, which could be anywhere from three days to a week and a half, depending upon the bank, I was like, I'm gonna have the money to pay these people back. Sometimes I did. More often than not, I did not.

[Interviewer]

And so they would come back to you and say, hey, by the way, that check bounced. Where's my money?

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah. And because they were people who cared about me and friends. It was never, at least in the beginning, it wasn'. Accusatory. It was just like, hey, something's going on. You need to figure this out.

[Interviewer]

And because, yeah, they didn't. Not for a second did they think that you were trying to scam them.

[Carrie Farrell]

Exactly, exactly. And then, you know, from there, it kind of became. What is the phrase? Stealing from Peter to pay Paul.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Carrie Farrell]

So it became this thing and eventually just snowballed out of control. And I want to be very clear that I'm the one who was rolling that snowball. This was not. Not, you know, I take full accountability in what I did.

[Interviewer]

Did you lose friends at the time because of this?

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah. I mean, a big reason that I left Utah to go to New York is because I basically ran myself out of that town. It's a very small city, even still, but especially back in, you know, the 2000s, and. And then even smaller, if you're in apart, you know, different. Different subcultures. So I was Very into, you know, the indie music scene, the art scene. And so, yeah, at a certain point, very quickly, it got out and circulated that I was doing this to. To friends, to people. Yeah, who knew me.

[Interviewer]

Did you have a job at the time or how you were in school? I guess, obviously I had a job.

[Carrie Farrell]

I actually had a. I mean, for being the age that I was a pretty good job. I was a veterinary technician.

[Interviewer]

And you were also in high school. This is you around 17y.

[Carrie Farrell]

So I was. There was a program in my high school. This was after high school, but there was a program in my high school where you were able to your junior and senior years, essentially leave with an associate's degree in veterinary sciences, which is an amazing thing that they were offering. And so I had internships and then ended up getting hired at one of those vet clinics. And so did you want to be.

[Interviewer]

A vet at the time? I did.

[Carrie Farrell]

That's what I thought. And then once I started doing it, I was like, oh, the business side of things is more where my interests are or, I guess, my talents. I loved working with animals. But it also, you know, the emotional toll of that is not easy. And then seeing how it is a business is very difficult sometimes. But I do remember there was an incident where the police came to my work. Like, I'm in scrubs. I'm at the vet clinic, and they asked me if I could speak with them in the parking lot. They basically were like, you have warrants for your arrest. We could arrest you right now. And I was like, I'm at work, literally about to. And I don't remember if this was true, but, like, about to go into surgery, you know, because I was an assistant, right? I was a veterinary assistant. I misspoke earlier. Not a technician, a vet assistant. And I, Yeah, I said that. And they. They let me go back in, but they were like, you have to take care of these warrants.

[Interviewer]

So you had, at this point, you had all these warrants for you for all. For bad checks.

[Carrie Farrell]

For bad checks, yeah. And what is. I guess, I mean, it's interesting and it's a testament, I think, to the people, my victims, because again, you know, they cared about me. Even after they found out, they were upset. Some of them didn't rightfully didn't want to talk to me anymore. But there were others who were like, how do we help you? Like, you're clearly going through something, right? And, yeah, I, I, you know, there are. I'm so fortunate because there are people who I still speak with now who really? Never, you know, stopped caring, which is just. I mean. Yeah, that's. It's. It's.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, it's real friendship. If they went through all of that and you did what you did to them and still being there for you, that. That's awesome.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Interviewer]

And what do you. It's interesting to me, sort of the. What is it about you? Because even when I get a bill that has been unpaid and, you know, or it, like, stays with me, I, like, get very anxious about the idea that, you know, that I owe some money to somebody. Like, what is it about? You know, I mean, you're hoping you might be able to pay those people back, but surely you knew that there was a high chance and you actually stopped being able to pay these people back. So at this point, did you feel any stress? Was it stressful for you or what was going through your mind or how you. How were you rationalizing this?

[Carrie Farrell]

That's a great question, and I will do my best to try to answer it, because that's still. That's something that still continues to confuse me. You know, a lot of the money that I was getting from writing these bad checks was going toward taking my friends out for dinner, you know, paying for things left and right. And again, people, you know, people would ask me, okay, so you had a job. Did you, you know, did you have an addiction? You know, what drugs were you on?

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Carrie Farrell]

You know, did you. Were you gambling? What is going on? Why did you need all of this money? And it really was because in my mind, I had it twisted. And I was just like, okay, I'm gonna be the person that everyone wants to hang out with because I'm treating people to these things. And I, you know, realize now I just wanted to assimilate. I. I didn't want to be me.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, you didn't think you was enough?

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, I think that's really it. And I mean, that's. That's part of it. I. I struggle with. You know, I just. The media obviously has twisted things, and I struggle with how and what I can accept. I don't like thinking that I. I guess I was, like, made this way. I think one of the things that I truly believe is that people. People love to think, oh, everyone's born good, and then they turn bad. And for me, I really try not to see good people, bad people. I think of it as people who make good decisions or bad decisions. And there are certain people, whether that's circumstantial or brain chemistry, who need to be taught how to make good decisions, and that can be very difficult. And I think that we as a society do ourselves a disservice by. Yeah. Believing that everyone has equal opportunities to make good decisions. That's jumping a little bit ahead because that's something that I discovered, you know, while I was incarcerated, just in speaking to all of these incredible women that I met who, again, you know, some of them sure, were not taking accountability. Some of them were not, you know, committed to making better choices. But by and large, the majority of women there either shouldn't have. I mean, I believe that no one should be incarcerated at all. But definitely, you know, they were defending themselves. They were getting themselves out of a bad situation. It was literally survival. And, you know, we're setting them up to fail.

[Interviewer]

I mean, that's my whole work. I mean, so much of it is that is sort of exploring the gray area and trying to understand why people do what they do, trying to place ourselves in their shoes and seeing that for a lot of them, particularly in my work in black markets, it is a lack of opportunities, and it's the environment they grew up in and the conditions that they were given that leads them into these worlds, you know, or into life of crime. And, I mean, it doesn't excuse them. But I think understanding and seeing the humanity in everybody is. Is crucial to sort of seeing the whole picture. Right.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah. And that's. I mean, one of the many reasons that I appreciate your work, because it's really. It's so easy to think of people, especially, you know, former criminals.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. People who did time in prison. Yeah.

[Carrie Farrell]

It's statistically, everyone knows someone who has or is incarcerated. We in the US have anywhere from 1.8 to 2 million people incarcerated at any given time. You know, for. And of course, all of these stats, it's like. Well, then you look at, you know, how many of those people are people of color. How many of those people, you know, were never given the opportunity or the tools, resources that they need to succeed. And so, yeah, that's really what I've dedicated my work toward now, is just ensuring that people do have the opportunities that I did, because I am not like a lot of formerly incarcerated people. Big part of that, though, is that I had, you know, support network. I had, as we were just talking about friends who stuck by me despite it all. I had, you know, access to a therapist. So just really trying to make sure everyone and has those same opportunities. It would be great if we could nip that in the bud and, you know, have that be a Thing that is just part of society like this, you know, when you're born, when you, when you're here. But at the very least, making sure people who are let. Let out, who are released, can do everything they can to not go back in to that system.

[Interviewer]

It is interesting though. You say, do you think that if you, you didn't feel like you were different growing up and you didn't, weren't made, didn't have other people making you feel like you were different, do you think that you would have still started conning people or having this wish to be somebody else and have stuff that you didn't actually have?

[Carrie Farrell]

I don't think so. It's hard to say because, you know, it's the what ifs. They can, they can. It's like throwing yourself to the wolves sometimes. But I really, I was always playing a part, you know, I was always playing the, you know, again, like just how I identified people. Think it's hyperbolic. I think when I'm like, I was the only Asian person in my school, but then I'll pull out a yearbook or a class picture and they'll be like, oh, you weren't kidding.

[Interviewer]

You were actually the only Asian person.

[Carrie Farrell]

There was another Asian girl who moved to my school who was also adopted later on. But yeah, there were good periods of time where I was the only Asian person in my class.

[Interviewer]

And kids remain like, like in every school, not just your school. I mean, generally kids are just. I mean, I remember a lot of incidents of people just being mean.

[Carrie Farrell]

Totally. I think that kids are mean, but they're also. They have no filter and they're curious. I think a lot of questions I was asked were not necessarily malicious, though there were, were times where they certainly were. But often, you know, I think it was just kids being like, this is what, this is weird. You're weird.

[Interviewer]

What's up?

[Carrie Farrell]

Like, you don't look like us, right?

[Interviewer]

Yeah, they're not intentionally being mean. It just what comes out of their mouth sometimes hurts without them even knowing.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, society was just so different. I mean, I write about this, but there was a, you know, like a playground rhyme slash game, whatever, where it was like. And you know, a lot of people after they read my book wrote to me about this and they were like, oh my God, that brought back such memories. And I was a kid who was like saying these things, or I was a kid on the receiving end, but it was like, you know, you would take your eyes in Chinese, Japanese, you know, da da, da, da da. And I remember being so annoyed because I was like, I'm Korean. Why isn't that listed there? You're gonna, like, say things, talk shit on me, like, at least. Least get it right. But, yeah, it was just. We didn't have the visibility. You know, I think the only person, the only Asian woman that almost anyone could name at that time was Lucy Liu, who's incredible. But it's like, you know, I think that I was a pretty, by all accounts, like, cute kid, but no one really knew. Knew that that was the case because no one ever really saw people like me. And so they just.

[Interviewer]

Right. You know.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah. I was just so different. And so to answer your question, I was always playing a part, whether I wanted to be or not. I was just doing everything I could always to fit in. But I also, throughout all of it, was very much who I am, which is, you know, a person who. I love making people laugh. I love being creative. And in the Mormon religion, as a woman, you're really told that your purpose is to procreate and that's, you know, be a homemaker. And I rejected that very early on, which, you know, was not. That was another thing that wasn't super easy to navigate. I think that if I would have been encouraged to tap into my creativity in different ways, I think that's really what would have prevented me from running amok. Because, again, it was part of this natural storytelling ability. One of the most amazing things that has come from having this book out is that I have heard from people who knew me back then, victims of mine. And there was this woman who wrote me, and she was like, this is what you should have been doing with your abilities, you know, from day one. You know, I'm so happy that you got there eventually. And that was so meaningful to me for so many reasons. It would have been even if I hadn't known this person. But the fact that they were someone that I told stories to, you know, not ended our friendship, but to then find me after this came out, you know, to say that was just really powerful.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. And very kind of that person too. To reach out to you, to say.

[Carrie Farrell]

That so beyond kind. And it was so unexpected. But I think, you know, so much of my work is to show that second chances are deserved and that we all evolve and the change is possible. It's interesting because, you know, liberals, white liberals, people love to say, oh, we believe, you know, we root for the underdog. We want everyone to succeed, you know, do the crime, pay the time, but then you're good. And it's like, no, no, no, no. Like, you might say that, but structurally systemic.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. That's not how the system is set up.

[Carrie Farrell]

It's not how the system.

[Interviewer]

And I want to get there. About what? Like, sort of what your life was at, like, when you left prison. Because that was super hard as well, right? Yeah, we'll get there. So when. Just going back to the checks before you left Salt Lake City, when people would come up to you and say, hey, dude, what's up? It was. Yeah. And they would ask you for money, did you come up with excuses, or did you at some point say, yeah, I lied to you. Did you?

[Carrie Farrell]

It was always about buying more time. I was. There were. There were a couple of times where I fessed up, but it was really. When my back was against the wall, it was like I was a caged animal. You know, it was really only under that pressure of being caught. And even then, you know, I would try to talk my way out of things until I realized that there was literally no way that I could.

[Interviewer]

And that reminds me, there's a story where you were dating your boyfriend. You passed a bunch of bad checks to him, and then at one point, he goes with you to the bank. Right. Can you tell that story?

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah. So, I mean, I went to the bank, and I was able to convince the person who was helping us try to figure things out, because, again, obviously, I knew what the problem was. The problem was that I didn't have.

[Interviewer]

Any money in my account. Right.

[Carrie Farrell]

But walked into the bank with him, with him to say, hey, I've been, you know, on the phone for hours with customer service. They're realizing that there's an issue. You know, I spun this crazy yarn, and ultimately, I convinced the person, the bank representative that we were sitting down at their desk with, that there was something wrong on their end. Oh, wow. And that bought me time. And they didn't say, like, oh, we see that you're not at fault, or whatever. But they said, yeah, we could. We. I'll investigate this further. Clearly, there's something that's going on. Miscommunications. Our system might be dead, whatever it is. And I remember just being like, whoa, I can't believe that I, like, pulled this off. And another thing that some people might find difficult to believe is that I was not. Not plotting or planning these things. It was all so reactionary. It was like, you know, I wasn't like, okay, I'm gonna go to the bank and I'm gonna say these things, and this is how it's all gonna go down, you know, Da, da, da, da, da. It was like, my boyfriend was probably like, what the fuck is going on? And I was like, you know what? Great idea. Let's go to the bank. Let's go. Like, who would write bad checks and.

[Interviewer]

Then think that it's a good idea to go to bank?

[Carrie Farrell]

So people are like, oh, mastermind. I'm like, no, I was dumb as shit.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. It's interesting. You say that's probably the only. One of the only. I mean, I sat in the studio for an interview with Anna Delvey, and she said very little as opposed to you. But one of the things that sort of came across in that interview was that idea that in her, it wasn't like a big plan. Things just escalated, and then it was hard to sort of extricate themselves from that. That position, that situation. It wasn't like there was a bit master plan to get money from this person and this person and create this life. It was just. You start small, it escalates, and then you find yourself in the middle of all of this gigantic avalanche, essentially.

[Carrie Farrell]

Totally. And, I mean, that might be one of the only ways that Anna and I are similar.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, but I was innocent.

[Carrie Farrell]

I mean, get your bag, girl. You know, do you. I truly, like. You know, I just. It's two sides of the same. Yeah. Of the same coin.

[Interviewer]

Right. But, yeah, so going back to that. That moment. So. Okay, so it's another example for you of how even when you're doing bad things, you can get away with it and nobody is going to find out and you just can keep doing it. Kind of idea. I mean, in a way, was the.

[Carrie Farrell]

Feeling until it wasn't right. Because ultimately everyone started to find out. It started to circulate. People were confronting me while I was out and about. I mean, and again, I don't think that it was necessarily the right decision or okay of them to do that, but I totally get it. You know, these are people. But, yeah, again, like, I am very clear about how. These were people who were friends. Friends. This was not, you know, random people. Not that that would be any better or worse.

[Interviewer]

But it's. Yeah. Particularly bad if you're doing it to people who supposedly, you know, love you and have your best interest in mind. So they were coming up to you and they were saying all this stuff, and then I'm sure they all started talking about you and. And people stopped hanging out with you or wanting to be friends with you. How did that feel for you at the time? Were you sad? Did you feel like. Like sorry for yourself. Did you feel sorry for them?

[Carrie Farrell]

I think that I obviously felt very lonely.

[Interviewer]

Did your parents know about any of this, by the way?

[Carrie Farrell]

So my parents separated when I was 15. And so when I was 16, I was living with my dad, single parent. He was starting, you know, to date again. It was kind of sort of a no rules type situation that, you know, oftentimes happens in these situations.

[Interviewer]

And your mom moved to Arizona?

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, my mom moved back to Arizona.

[Interviewer]

And why did you decide to stay with your dad and not go with your mom?

[Carrie Farrell]

Because of school. Just like, that's where, you know, I mean, and life in general. And I wasn't necessarily. I wasn't writing bad checks at that time. It was when I moved out of the house, you know, a year and a half later, that it really started to escalate. And, yeah, I just. I literally ran myself out of town. And then the heat was on. Like, the police were, you know, knocking on my door. They were trying, obviously, as mentioned, came to my work and what's really. I don't know if interesting is the right word, but all of the charges that I had brought against me, I should restart. Most of the charges that I had brought against me were from the banks. There were a couple of civil cases from people who I wrote bad checks to, but by and large, most of those folks let it go, let it slide. And I think, again, just showing that they cared about me as a person and weren't trying to. Even though I disrespected them so severely, they weren't trying to ruin my life, you know. But the flip side of having the banks come after you is that that's when law enforcement really starts to pay attention. And so.

[Interviewer]

And that's when you felt you had to leave?

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

But did your dad know this was going on?

[Carrie Farrell]

No, my dad and I at the time had a pretty estranged relationship, honestly, more so just because of life, you know, like, again, he is dating. He's dating. He, you know, I'm doing my own thing. He thinks that I'm just living life as a young adult. And. Yeah, so it very much came as a shock to my parents when they discovered all of this.

[Interviewer]

And you were in New York at the time? Yeah, it was not. It wasn't until later. So. Okay, so you decided to move to New York. I imagine the boyfriend who took you to the bank and eventually found out the truth, you guys broke up and you were sort of feeling lonely and you decided you were going to move to New York. Why New York.

[Carrie Farrell]

I had some friends who lived there, and they were like, this is the place for you. And, you know, at the time, social media didn't exist, so I really was able to leave to New York without the Utah part of it following me, at least.

[Interviewer]

I. I thought, what year was this, by the way?

[Carrie Farrell]

This was 2008.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah. So we were just starting to get Twitter. You know, Facebook and MySpace existed, but it was on a different level. It wasn't on a lower level. It wasn't. You know, people weren't as addicted to it at the time. So I left. And again, this is just the, you know, further proof that I was not thinking at all. I was like, okay, I'm just gonna leave Utah. I'll never come back, you know, or whatever. That'll be fine. I did not think about how I had warrants for my arrest and the leaving the state is very illegal. I did not think, you know, I was just like, survival, you know, how do I make it out? How do I. You know? Because it was exactly what people would think as far as, oh, I'm gonna go over there and start a new life. Right? Like, I am not. I'm gonna get a legit job. I'll be in the city that I just know that I need to be in. All of the things.

[Interviewer]

I'll get my acts to get together, basically, is what you were thinking.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, I'll get my. You know, I'll do things the way, you know, if I'm going to be struggling, let's do it in a place where it'll be fun and everybody else is struggling too.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Carrie Farrell]

And I remember the day that I moved and I moved there without ever having visited. And I just remember being, like, walloped by the access to different cultures, different food, different people. And it was amazing, but it was super intense for me. Going from basically monoculture. Right. One. One very specific culture, to, like, everything. And part of what started to happen is that I was experiencing. I don't even want to say racism, but, like, I mean, some of it certainly was, but I was experiencing being me looking the way that I look in a totally different way. Some ways that was super positive. And I was like, I feel seen, you know, and then in other ways, it was like, oh, yeah, people are still saying mean things to me. This time it's from. It's more loaded, though, because it's a whole group of people that they're talking about that I now am starting to identify with, with more.

[Interviewer]

Such as?

[Carrie Farrell]

Such as just, like, things that were Very specific. To, like, go back to your own country, you know, that kind of thing. I wasn't getting a lot of that in Utah because I. You know, it just. I think people.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Like, smaller people.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah. It just wasn't. Nobody even thought of the country that I was from. You know, they were just like, you're different. But then when I got to New York, it was like some of these things were way more. More specific to my actual heritage, and that kind of threw me for a loop. And all of this is. You know, in retrospect, I don't think I would have been able to verbalize any of this at the time, but it was just a whiplash, and it was exciting, and I loved the city. I just, you know, immersed myself in the insanity of it. I did try to find a legitimate job, and ultimately I ended up getting one at Vice.

[Interviewer]

But before then, you.

[Carrie Farrell]

But that being said.

[Interviewer]

Yes, exactly. Because before then, a lot happens, including you kept on saying you had a job that you didn't. Right. Can you tell me about that?

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So how did you make friends and how did you pay for your life here in New York when you first got here?

[Carrie Farrell]

So I. Those are great questions, because they were questions I had that I didn't have the answers to, that I needed to discover the answers very quickly. And so, you know, not being able to get a job as quickly as I thought I would, I was.

[Interviewer]

Were you trying. Were you.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, you were? Yeah, I was. But of course, you know, it was with resumes that were. Listen, I think that we all know that everyone fake it till you make it, you know, but, yeah, mine were. There were. It was considerably zhuzhed.

[Interviewer]

So what? It had just, like, all these jobs that you never had.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, it was like. Or things that I had done, but for different companies, because I always. Part of. One of the reasons. Like, part of the reason that I wanted to go to New York is that I love music, and I loved music. And I. You know, Williamsburg, specifically in Brooklyn, was well known for being sort of. I mean. Yeah, the, like, hipster capital, indie rock scene, you know, And I just always. Yeah, I always wanted to be a part of that scene. I just thought that was, like, the coolest thing. I thought that was the way that I would be the coolest. And so I was lying about working for, you know, some of these major festivals, production companies, that kind of thing. And I was like, okay, well, I have to do something to make money. I have to pay rent. I have to eat all of that. I have to Survive. And so I was like, okay, what am I going to do here? I don't want to be writing bad checks again. What can I do? And so I started to steal money from people, specifically white trust fund kids, who I would meet out at bars and at shows. And, you know, how do you know.

[Interviewer]

There were trust funds?

[Carrie Farrell]

So that's. Therein lies the issue. Right. Is that there were things that I would, you know, observe that would kind of lead me to that, I guess, conclusion. But there's no way that all of them were, you know, like, they're. I think that it was like, oh, they're wearing nice shoes, they have a nice watch. You know, sometimes it was. It was again, not plotting. It wasn't like, I'm gonna go out tonight and find someone to do this to. It would be like, I'm out. That person just went to the atm, they didn't take their receipt. I'm gonna go look at it, see what their bank balance was. Oh, wow, okay. It's pretty significant. Or even if it weren't that significant, it's pretty significant to me as like a 20 year old, a poor 20 year old in New York City, like, I'm gonna try to go home with that guy.

[Interviewer]

And. And that in your mind, you were rationalizing it as, yeah, this person has. Is a lot. Has a lot more than I do.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, I should.

[Interviewer]

I deserve some of this as well. Or was going through your.

[Carrie Farrell]

I don't even know if it was. I deserve. I think it was more of just.

[Interviewer]

Like, I want it.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah. Yeah. Because I don't think that I. There was not a lot of entitlement in this for me. It wasn't a. Like, I'm. Again, I think in retrospect, I look at the people, you know, and it's like, okay, these were all the kind of guys that I was told my entire life to, you know, try to marry. They're the good ones. They're whatever it is. So, yeah, I would go home with these guys again throughout all of this. I me, I'm not using a fake name. I'm not using. I'm still my personality, which means that I am still like boisterous and ridiculous. And so part of the reason that this became such a big story ultimately is because I couldn't just, you know, walk up to someone at the bar and flirt like a normal person. I had to write these like ridiculous notes that I was like sliding to people trying to. And, you know, trying to make them laugh. That just had like ridiculous lines.

[Interviewer]

Give us Give me some of. I know some of them are really funny.

[Carrie Farrell]

So I think the. The most popular one, the highest rate of success. I try not to use them more than once. I remember because I was like, no, I have to be original. That was always it, right. Is that I was like, I need to be the only me.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Carrie Farrell]

Like, I need to be memorable. I need to be original. So one of the lines was, I want to give you a hand job with my mouth.

[Interviewer]

And then you signed it. Is that the one?

[Carrie Farrell]

You sign it. Yeah. So I was obsessed. And I still, to this day, I love basketball. Utah is a very basketball. It's a basketball town because we only had one professional sports team and the Utah Jazz. So I would sign it. I guess I was saying that I wasn't using my. I wasn't using a fake name when I met him.

[Interviewer]

No, no. Yeah, I understood. Yeah.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah. But I was signing things Korean Abdul Jabbar, after one of my favorite players and people in life. She's an amazing humanitarian, Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

[Interviewer]

And so people would read these. These guys would read these messages. You'd be like at the end of the bar, like, winking, hey, it was me.

[Carrie Farrell]

Or kind of.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Carrie Farrell]

I mean, it was sort of this, like, litmus test, too, of like, if the guy.

[Interviewer]

If this is a guy. Yeah, Like a smart guy that can get this joke.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah. Or like this. That was. The other thing is that it was like, well, again, if I had been. If I had thought about this situation, it was like, why it always had to be people that I still felt connected to. Which is worse, I think, from, like, a manipulative perspective. Right. Like, it's. I was specifically wanting the attention from the people that I wanted attention from.

[Interviewer]

Right. And that you liked or that you find some. Found some sort of connection.

[Carrie Farrell]

Exactly.

[Interviewer]

Which in the end was bad because the ultimate result. Result was bad for them.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, people have asked me, well, you know, why didn't you just go, like, the sugar baby route or, like the sex worker route? You know? And that had never even crossed my mind. Like, that was not a thing. You know, I. I just had never. It felt like this was the only way.

[Interviewer]

But when you did go home with these guys at the start, did you think, I'm going to build a relationship with this person, fall in love with them? They might fall in love with me. I might actually marry this person? Or was it always. I know there wasn't, like, a master plan, but did you always think, I'm probably going to steal from this guy by the end of this night.

[Carrie Farrell]

I don't think that I ever thought that far ahead. I think I was literally, like. It was an in the moment kind of thing. There were times where, for example, I met this guy at a show, at a concert. We were both alone, alone. And then, you know, making out during the show, whatever. And we were. I was like, yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna take this person back to my home because they lived in New Jersey, and so we're on the train. And I remember him saying something because I was like, well, where were you gonna. What was your plan? Like, were you gonna go back home? And then I realized I was like, oh, this person was planning on meeting someone so that they had somewhere to stay tonight. And I was like, oh, I don't like that. Which, I mean, pot calling the kettle black, right? Like, But I was like, oh, this person had their own, you know, sort of, I guess, like, scam. I don't know if I thought of it that way at the time, but. And that was a moment where I was like, okay, maybe I am going to take advantage of this person, But.

[Interviewer]

And did you?

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, I did.

[Interviewer]

What did you do?

[Carrie Farrell]

I. I. I think I took. What did I take of theirs? Maybe their Metro card. That was. The other thing is, by the time I was doing this in New York, I wasn't writing bad checks. Here I was literally, it was like, pocketing an. I almost said iPad. Pocketing an ipod. It was, you know, taking a $20 bill from them. It was like, very. Again, doesn't negate it, but, like, petty, petty theft.

[Interviewer]

And how did it happen? So you would go home with these guys, you'd sleep with them?

[Carrie Farrell]

Sometimes, sometimes not.

[Interviewer]

And then at what point of the night are you taking stuff from their wallets or.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, I mean, it really depended, right? Because again, it was so circumstantial. But it was like, okay, sometimes they'd be sleeping, and I'd be like, I'm gonna sneak out of here, you know, and then like, oh, there's a 20 bill by, you know, in the bowl that's next to their front door.

[Interviewer]

You take.

[Carrie Farrell]

Other times it was like, this is not going well. I don't like this person. Like, okay, I'm gonna go into their bathroom and, like, take, I don't know, like a cologne or whatever. It was almost like a. It didn't. Sometimes it didn't matter what it was. It was more of, like, the jab of it. There were times for sure, where I realized that they weren't as affluent or, you know, their situation wasn't what I thought. And I would, you know, I guess in my mind it was like, I'm going to be gracious to them and not take anything. But yeah, it was just. It was. They're honestly wasn't a lot of thought put into it.

[Interviewer]

And like you said, I mean, the majority of it was like small amounts and small goods. What was the biggest amount or the biggest thing you ever took from somebody at that point?

[Carrie Farrell]

I don't know what the biggest thing was, but the most meaningful for sure that I felt very bad about was so I mentioned an ipod. I took this person's ipod. I remember it being like, ooh, it's a brand new one. Great. And when I got home, I was looking at it and on the back there was an. It was engraved and it was from a family member congratulating them for being the first in their family to. To graduate from college.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Carrie Farrell]

And I was just like, oh, like that one. You know, so they're definitely. It's not like there wasn't remorse at the time because there was not enough, obviously, and not with everyone or for everyone. But definitely times where I was just.

[Interviewer]

Like, this wasn't great.

[Carrie Farrell]

I mean, the biggest thing, and you mentioned this in the intro, and this was something that was partially true, is that I did lie to a handful of people about having grave serious illnesses, including cancer. Yeah. And I don't recall saying that I was a survivor. I do recall saying that it was a current thing that I had.

[Interviewer]

That you had cancer. Yeah, it was cancer of the lungs or.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, it was. It was lungs. And you know, it was like even that oddly had to be this thing where I was like, yeah, it's really crazy rare, whatever. Because I don't smoke. I don't smoke. You know, and pulling up a statistic of like. Yeah, a very small percentage of people get it even though they don't smoke. I can't believe I'm one of those people.

[Interviewer]

So would you research online on how to tell these lies?

[Carrie Farrell]

Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't like super in depth, but it was like, yeah. If people ask, okay, so what stage? You know, I had a response for that. I. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And how do you remember the first time you said that? And now that time has passed, why do you think you were saying this? I mean, I guess for the same idea. It's this idea of wanting to be liked and attention paid and all that. But. Yeah. Okay, so let's go to the first time you ever said. Do you remember that?

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, it started, actually. So when I was stealing things for people, it was always men. Which is. Is part of the reason that, you know, some saw and still see me as like a. Almost celebrated feminist, like anti. Anti hero, you know, and maybe there was some of that in my mind at the time, but, like, I try not to think of things necessary in those ways. But the first time that I lied about having cancer was actually because there was a woman that I met that I fell in love with, and we were just friends. I, to this day have no idea if she was at all queer, but she started dating this guy and I got really jealous and they were moving super, super quickly. And I remember that there was a time where.

[Interviewer]

Can I just ask you a question, if you don't mind? Was it the first time you had feelings for a woman or has that exhausted. No, because I actually remember something you said in your. Your book that I thought was great and I wanted to share it here, which was that you faked. You faked being white. You faked being a good Mormon girl. You faked being straight.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, yeah, I think. I mean, I always knew, right. Like, even as a young child, younger child, like when I started to have crushes, it wasn't necessarily only the boys. That being said, there was a huge period of my life where I did not acknowledge it because, you know, the church's teachings are right. That. That is, you know, I mean, yeah, I was basically just by being me, I was sinning a lot. And so I think that was also a part of it where it was like, okay, well, if I'm already a sinner, you know, why don't I do things that are actually advantageous to me?

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Carrie Farrell]

For me. So not the first person, not the first woman that I love.

[Interviewer]

Had you had a relationship with women before?

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, I have. Yeah. When I was actually, during the time that I was writing the bad checks, there was a woman that I was. I got casually dating in Salt Lake City. Yeah, I wouldn't say in a relationship with necessarily, but this was the first person, though, that I was like, oh, they get me. Like, like they were inter. Or they were biracial. And so we really bonded over the kind of like, well, which side are we supposed to be on? You know, are we. You know, because there's a lot of times where people would try to make you choose, well, are you Asian or are you white? Right. And it was very different, a different experience for both of us, but a shared one. And, yeah, I just remember feeling very. Like it was just a very nurturing environment. And so anyway, she started dating this guy. It moved very quickly.

[Interviewer]

So this. In New York. So then fast forward to New York, and there's this person you like, and she starts dating a guy.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, yeah. And she was. His parents were gonna be in town. And I remember being like, I cannot. Look, she can't meet his parents like that. That's. I don't know. For some reason in my mind, that just felt like, I have no. There will be no chance for me if she meets, because she was so in love with this guy, you know? And so I lied. I don't think that at the time I was saying that I had cancer, but I lied about being very sick. And I actually went to the hospital and lied to them about being sick, my symptoms and everything. And so I did actually, I convinced this hospital, these doctors, these medical professionals. I mean, this is no shade against medical professionals. Like, I convinced them that there was something very wrong with me. And they kept me there for a few days running all these tests. Da, da, da.

[Interviewer]

Wow. You stayed overnight at the hospital?

[Carrie Farrell]

I stayed overnight multiple nights.

[Interviewer]

What were you saying was wrong? Like we were saying, what were the symptoms that you were saying you had?

[Carrie Farrell]

I mean, all kinds of things. I was like, you know, it's a little hard for me to breathe. I have pain, you know, in this certain area. All kinds of things.

[Interviewer]

That is so crazy.

[Carrie Farrell]

The scans would. They would get the scans, like, everything, like, okay, but, you know, I feel it. I feel it.

[Interviewer]

And was your friend with you at the time?

[Carrie Farrell]

So my friend came to visit, and of course, I had planned it so.

[Interviewer]

She missed the dinner with the.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah. And I don't remember if it was a D, but, yeah, she missed or something.

[Interviewer]

Meeting the parents, meeting the family. Wow. And so that was the beginning. And that was the first time. Time. And then.

[Carrie Farrell]

And then I think it was a couple of other times. It wasn't. That was not honestly, one of my, like, consistent lines.

[Interviewer]

But you did say it.

[Carrie Farrell]

I did say it. That's the thing, though, that I feel, you know, a lot of. A lot of this, you know, stories and articles about me, about all of this is so focused on the money, which, by the way, is.

[Interviewer]

Is.

[Carrie Farrell]

Has been misreported to, like, a pretty varying degree.

[Interviewer]

How much money do you think is still?

[Carrie Farrell]

I.

[Interviewer]

It was in goods and money.

[Carrie Farrell]

In goods and money. 10 to $15,000, let's say. That's also, though, from banks and from loan shark, you know, check cashing. Places which, I mean, whatever. I'll go. My agents love when I say this. I'll go on record saying, I don't feel bad about that at all. I. I feel bad about taking advantage of people, the banks. That's a different story. But, you know, it wasn't a consistent lie in the cancer. What I find interesting, but is that.

[Interviewer]

The part that you're saying that you feel the worst about more than the money, it's the lying about the cancer.

[Carrie Farrell]

And it's also just like, you know, the money, that's not good, but at the same time, it's just money. And it was smaller amounts of money. I was always like, well, did I destroy these people's ability to have trusting, loving relationships? Like, are these people going to be forever?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Carrie Farrell]

You know, damaged and unable to trust people because of me. And I'm very fortunate because, again, I've been able to reconnect with a lot of people and. And, you know, they're just like, that was a crazy time. They were like, that was a crazy time. And you provided me with a really good story.

[Interviewer]

And when you reconnect with them, is it you reaching out and apologizing and saying, I'm so sorry this happened? And this is what's bothering me, this idea that I might have taken trust away from you and, you know, kept. Left you with a lifelong scar, is that we do.

[Carrie Farrell]

Honestly, I. There are a couple of people that I've reached out to, but for the most part, I let people reach out to me because, first of all, I'm pretty easily accessible. But more so, you know, I. I think that some people just want to.

[Interviewer]

Move forward and move on.

[Carrie Farrell]

And something I thought a lot about when writing this book, knowing that it was going to come out, knowing that people were gonna say, oh, she should just capitalize, like, further capitalizing on these crimes. But recognizing that, like, this might trigger people. Right. To see that I'm doing this. So I've said publicly multiple times, you know, if you're someone who I have wronged, please let me know, because I do want to write it, and we can discuss what that looks like. And there have been a couple of people where they're like, you don't remember me. You might not remember me. And I'm like, no, I definitely do not remember you. And I'm like, is this person really not? Either way, like, I'm gonna obviously treat them like they are, try to get some information to corroborate their story.

[Interviewer]

Why would you think people just would want to lie about that. Is it because they want to be part of the story that's now well known or. Yeah.

[Carrie Farrell]

I mean, that was happening even back then, right. Where it was like, people I remember in comment sections of articles would be like, oh, I met her at Da da da. Or like, I met her at this place and took her on a date. We went here, and it was like, there's. I was like, that never happened.

[Interviewer]

Wow, that is crazy.

[Carrie Farrell]

Where it's like people trying to scam.

[Interviewer]

Yourself into a scam story.

[Carrie Farrell]

It's, like, serious, and people have pretended to be me. You know, it's. It's.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Carrie Farrell]

It kind of. I don't want to say, you know, everything's a scam. That I will say, like, in certain ways.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Carrie Farrell]

Everything is a scam.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Carrie Farrell]

Particularly when you look at our government and.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Carrie Farrell]

You know, the administration and health care and all kinds.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. I mean, health care 100%. Absolutely. So, okay, so then. So this was happening. So then you started with these. The lies about having cancer and. And then how did it. Yeah. How did it progress from there, so. Or how did it hit a wall?

[Carrie Farrell]

I got a job at Vice, and I remember I had, like, cold emailed them because I knew that I wanted to work for a company when I was saying that I couldn't find a job. You know, I definitely could have found a job job. It's just that I wanted.

[Interviewer]

Not the school job. Right. Not the job. Yeah.

[Carrie Farrell]

I didn't want to work at. And again, I truly believe there is only skilled labor. Right. Like, every job, there's skill involved. But I was like, well, I'm not gonna work at McDonald's. Like, I'm. I need to. If I'm. I have to have the job. The job. And so I cold emailed Vice, and I was like, hey, I don't see any positions available, but here's my resume. And I, you know, said some funny shit. And, you know, this is why you should bring me in for an interview. And I got an email back being like, okay, can you come in? We're actually, you know, interviewing for an executive assistant position for the editor in chief at the moment. Come on by.

[Interviewer]

Wow. So who was it? Chain or who was it?

[Carrie Farrell]

The. No, it was Eric Lavoie. And so.

[Interviewer]

And so you were his executive assistant.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah. That's. For. Not very long, though.

[Interviewer]

No, not very long.

[Carrie Farrell]

Two weeks. Because ultimately what happened is that I was on a crosstown bus going to visit a friend, and I was scrolling on my original iPhone and I was scrolling through this website that still exists, called Gothamist. And I remember scrolling, scrolling and then coming across my mugshot from Utah, because I hadn't. I've actually never. I've never been arrested in New York and.

[Interviewer]

But you were on a most wanted list from Utah, right?

[Carrie Farrell]

Yes. So I did not know this, though.

[Interviewer]

You had no idea they were.

[Carrie Farrell]

I had no idea.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Carrie Farrell]

And this again, I think is a tribute testament to my stupidity, is that again, I'm leaving Utah just being like, I'm going to start a new. While in reality I am. And this is the way. This is the absconding from justice.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Carrie Farrell]

You know, me being like 18, like 19, you know, like, whatever. Like Utah has bigger fish to fry. Like, I'm just going to, you know, I had to have known that I was running from things. Like, I just thought, they're not going to.

[Interviewer]

It's not going to catch me.

[Carrie Farrell]

It's not going to catch me. I'm moving across the country and I'm going to be a better person.

[Interviewer]

So you're on the bus and then suddenly you see your face and you're like, what?

[Carrie Farrell]

I see my face and I. There was no question about it. It wasn't like I was like, whoa, that person looks a lot like me. I was deeply familiar with my own mugshot. So I immediately was just like, oh, this is not good. And then I looked at the story and it was basically what had happened is that Vice posted and they were like, hey, here's a hot tip. Tip. Before you hire someone, maybe Google them to see if they're on a most wanted list or not. Because this executive assistant that we hired or this person that we hired was. And then they posted the wanted poster.

[Interviewer]

And they didn't actually contact you before doing this?

[Carrie Farrell]

No, that was. That was how. And then, of course, I didn't go in and I never, like, communicated with them again. They shut all my stuff down. And I jokingly, I say, but maybe they still owe me money for the two last. But again, I wasn't there for. I wasn't there for long.

[Interviewer]

I thought there was a story also with somebody there that you started sort of flirting with. And then that person. That's how they found out. Right. Okay, so tell that story.

[Carrie Farrell]

So, I mean, I don't remember the details. I'm sure that I was like, flirtatious in the way that I am in the sense that, like, again, it's also Vice, and it's Vice in, you know, that time.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Carrie Farrell]

Which is time period. So this is.

[Interviewer]

This is pre. Me too movement. It Was very. It was a very masculine culture.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yes. There was a lot of exposure in. Kind of always possible.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Carrie Farrell]

It was like a. There were an HR department now, would. Would, yes. Be very unhappy. There would be lawsuits, and there weren't lawsuits. But. Yeah. So, you know, I was like, this is an edgy place. This is like, you know, they're so cool. I think I can be. I was encouraged kind of to be crass, you know, and so a lot of my communication with people through, like, you know, the messenger. I don't remember what we used.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. But, like, the interior. Internal messaging, whatever that it was, you.

[Carrie Farrell]

Know, was like, I. I don't remember exactly what I was saying, but I'm sure that it was, like, funny and flirtatious. And then, of course, people will Google you. It wasn't as prevalent now to Google someone, you know, but they did.

[Interviewer]

And this person saw that you were on a most wanted list and that there were stories about you out there. Yeah. And so that. And so. Okay, so you're in the bus, you saw this, and you're like, shit, this is. This is the moment. It was like, it.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah. And I was like, what do I do now? At the time, though, I didn't realize that it was going to blow up the way that it did. Right. Because this was, like, one article, you know, pretty short based on one blog post that Vice had posted that was relatively short. But then the observer picked it up. The New York observer, and the journalist, she bestowed the moniker Hipster Grifter. The Hipster Grifter upon me.

[Interviewer]

How did that make you feel when you saw that?

[Carrie Farrell]

I. Well, like every hipster, I was like, I'm not a hipster. That was, like, the part that I had more of a problem with.

[Interviewer]

I am a grifter, but I'm definitely not a hamster.

[Carrie Farrell]

God damn it. No, I think that I. You know, I think I also. I was like, oh, that's good. Like, not. Not that I wanted to claim it, but I was just like, that's. I see what the journalist is doing here. That is catchy. And I do remember also that at the time, people didn't know what either of those words meant, you know, and it. So there were a lot of articles that had to explain what, you know, grifter. Now, it's like, so much a part of our vernacular. Anything, anyone we don't like, anyone who, like, disagree that we disagree with is a grifter. Right. But at the time, also, the grifting.

[Interviewer]

Industry has exploded in the last few years, so yeah, it has become more part of our vernacular, like you said.

[Carrie Farrell]

And, and, you know, a lot of, again, I had mentioned, but a lot of what was written about me. Absolutely true. But there was a lot of misinformation.

[Interviewer]

And so what were the lies? What were the things that weren't true?

[Carrie Farrell]

It was everything from like my age, you know, it varied, you know, by four or five years. It was the amount of money. So that was a big one. And, you know, part of me is like, is it silly to care? And it's like, no, actually, it's a pretty. I feel a legitimate concern. The warrants for my arrest, the state of Utah, the warrant for the arrest was $60,000, but a lot of people took that number and attributed it to the amount that I had taken, which is not.

[Interviewer]

Not. It wasn't the case that that works.

[Carrie Farrell]

And so, you know, it was reported that I stole anywhere from 60 to $100,000. And a lot of the stories were written by, you know, middle aged white men. So a lot of them were focused on the way that I look. And I don't want to say it was only journalists, you know, that demographic. It was a lot of different kinds of people, types of people. But yeah, much of it focused on, you know, it was either kind of like, look at this subservient Asian girl who's flipping the script and like becoming the dragon Lady. You know, it was very rooted in racism. Very, very much my sexuality was highlighted, you know, and again, it's.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned that because even I highlighted it. I brought it up. Up main. Yeah, I brought it up. And because it was so much of when I was doing the research, that was part of it. I mean, a lot of it was like, how flirtatious was it you were, how many guys you had sex with to then steal their money, how you're, you know, being attracted to women and how that played into the story. Yeah, that's, that's in all the stories that I read.

[Carrie Farrell]

It's. And it's. I mean, I remember, I will put them on blast every day. The Philadelphia Inquirer, they, I am so glad that the Wayback Machine exists because I have a screenshot of this because it's like, no one would believe. I mean, maybe they would. The news is. I mean, everything's a scam, right? But back then, people were less critical and suspicious of the news. People took what journalists had to say and what was reported either by journalists or not as truth. And so I remember the Philadelphia Enquirer which is a legitimate newspaper, had like a post edit and it was like. And before you ask, here's a link to her like NSFW photos. And they literally linked to like thought shots, like to nude pictures that I. That had been released by an ex boyfriend. It like leaked. They weren't even things that I had put on the Internet. And I just remember being like, this is like.

[Interviewer]

Like a reputable newspaper. Like, you were expecting this from some salacious magazine, but not from this.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah. And again, I don't think it was until much later that I really realized how fucked up that is.

[Interviewer]

That is fucked up.

[Carrie Farrell]

I was doing the cut. New York magazine was doing a feature on me and I had brought this up and the journalist, Bindu Bounce Enough had contacted the journalist who wrote it and he was, to his credit, I guess, was so ashamed and was like, do you want me to get it taken down? At the time, I actually don't know if this article is still out there. But, you know, asked if we wanted him to do, I was like, no, you are like, this is years and years later.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Carrie Farrell]

But also like, that's wild. That's how we were treating women in the public eye at that time.

[Interviewer]

I think that's how you treat people in headlines often, particularly con artists and people who are in the headline or even not. Like I was reading the other day with a woman who kissed her guy from work, her co worker or actually her boss in the Coldplay concert and the way she was treated. And I remember, yeah, I think many times you just see the title or the headline and you don't understand sometimes that there's a person behind it and that there's a story there and that there's a human being. And. And I think people are really callous with the way and myself included, or that we are very callous sometimes with the way we talk about people. And. And so when you finally see that there is a human being, like reaching out to the guy, to the journalist from the Philadelphia Inquirer, maybe he didn't even cross his mind that, yeah, I'm like, fuck. I'm fuck. I'm like, really? This person, for all she has to blame for everything that she did wrong, she definitely doesn't deserve to have nude photos of her out there without her consent. Nobody does. So that's where I think there was a disconnect there between the Hipster Grifter and the Carrie Farrell, you know.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah. And I do remember being like, ugh, they're not even good ones. I was like, if they have no ones I put out. They would have been way better. Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, it's especially like how we treat women. Right. Specifically, like, you know, this was the time period of. Of, you know, Britney Spears being hunted down by the paparazzi. But it was also very telling and interesting because my crimes. Let's say I had stolen $60,000, which, again, I hadn't, but let's just say it was that number. I'm still being put on a most wanted list with people who have committed very, very, very serious crimes. And then these stories are major national headlines next to articles about Bernie Madoff and what he's doing.

[Interviewer]

That's crazy.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah. So it's like, what about my story can even compare to that? And it's like, well, you know, I mean, to be fair, it's very entertaining. And I think it was interesting for other people who were part of the music, you know, hipster subculture, because it was kind of the first time that they had been represented or that it had been represented in a negative way, I guess, in a way, like. And so it became this thing that all of these people also started participating in, because the first, you know, week that the article. When the article had come out, I went into hiding because I was like, my face is fucking everywhere now. Like, I don't know that people realize. So this was again, you know, before a lot of social media existed. And so the news cycle was a lot slower. Stories stayed very prevalent for a lot longer. Something happened like this now, it would be, you know, a day or two and then moving on. But because this was the first real viral scam story, it just. It stuck for a very long time.

[Interviewer]

So you went into hiding at somebody's.

[Carrie Farrell]

House, and I went into hiding at someone's house.

[Interviewer]

Like a friend of yours.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, a friend of mine who at.

[Interviewer]

This point, you had confessed to. You told them, yes, this is real. This is happening. And they still. That friend still was trying to help you.

[Carrie Farrell]

So it actually was just a. I got lucky because I lived with this friend, and he ended up having to go out of town during this time.

[Interviewer]

So I was there by myself.

[Carrie Farrell]

So they actually. They. They never knew at that time that all of this was happening.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, it was just really. It was. It was really interesting. I think that, you know, the state of Utah sort of saw this as a media moment, and they also, I think, saw it as, wow, if we don't nab this woman, we're gonna look like imbeciles.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, exactly.

[Carrie Farrell]

Again, like, I. I was Telling you earlier, it was sort of astounding to me how much time and effort went into researching my own life and my own memories, because I did want to. I mean, this book is as truthful as it can possibly be. And the reason I say it that way is because obviously memory is fallible. Right, Right. But I did a lot of research to corroborate things, and I, Yeah, looked at the Most Wanted posters with all of the. You know, and it's like, okay, here I am. And so, yeah, I ultimately ended up. There are people. There are groups of people, you know, peers of mine who were putting together these search parties to look for me.

[Interviewer]

Oh, wow.

[Carrie Farrell]

As, like, a fun activity. Right. There were. I think it's hard for people to understand how big, at the time, this was. Like, there were posters of me, like, wheat pasted around. Not even wanted posters, just like, people.

[Interviewer]

Because, like, have you seen this woman kind of thing?

[Carrie Farrell]

No, more of like a. They would take a movie poster for Crank and, like, you know, superimposed my face on it, and it was like. They changed the tagline to be, like, you know, she's going around and. Yeah, like, she's going around and scamming dumb hipsters. Like, it was very pro me, honestly. You know, matchbooks that I had written on notes were being, like, sold in auctions. Yeah. Crazy, crazy, crazy things. Like, I. You know, again, I guess the. The claim to fame is sort of that it was the first real.

[Interviewer]

It's interesting. It's this moment where you're, like, losing a lot of friends. Right. But at the same time, you're gaining a lot of attention. But also lots of people pretending they. They have been your friends or wanting to be close to you because now you're this, like, famous story and famous person that everybody's talking about. Right.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah. And, like, I was already clearly, like, up in the head. Right. Processing. Not processing. And so that just added to it. Right. Because it was like, oh, I'm actually. I thought, you know, I. I want to be accepted. I want attention. Now I'm getting it, and I don't want it anymore. Yeah. Not like this.

[Interviewer]

Right. I was gonna ask you how that felt, because as somebody who always wanted attention, now you had it. But, yeah, it didn't feel good. It wasn't.

[Carrie Farrell]

It was like, you know, I think that it was. Realistically, what I always wanted was the semblance of control. And so this felt. I mean, this very much wasn't I. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

It wasn't you telling the story anymore.

[Carrie Farrell]

Right. And after being in hiding. Literally, like hat, sunglasses, to like run to the bodega.

[Interviewer]

Oh, wow. Literally, Literally to get food.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, to get my like 25 cent bagel and chips. I like, thank the bodega, like the owner in the acknowledgments because I was like, you literally kept me alive at that time by like, did he know who you were? He had no idea, but just was like taking pity on me, looking like a mess and being like, yeah, you clearly need some food. Give me a quarter. But.

[Interviewer]

Oh, so he gave you the food for almost free.

[Carrie Farrell]

Almost free.

[Interviewer]

Because you went there and you said, hey, I need. I don't.

[Carrie Farrell]

Because I think I just. That was the only place that I was going for like a week and I was getting, you know, a bagel with butter and like a bag of.

[Interviewer]

So I think he was like, oh.

[Carrie Farrell]

Clearly something's happening here. But yeah, I ultimately was realized that there was no way that I was going to be able to live any sort of life without taking care of this. Like, they're just. It was impossible. You know, I don't know if at the time it was very self serving. You know, I. I don't necessarily think that I was like, I need to right the wrongs. It was more of like, what does my future look like? And so I ended up. I had friends who were in a band and they were based out of Philly and they were going on tour and they were going to. One of the stops was Salt Lake. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna have a final hurrah. Like, not in the sense of like stealing, but like, I'm gonna have a good time and I'm gonna go on tour with them. And then when we get to Utah, the idea was, you know, that I would turn myself in, but I was gonna have a great time between, you know, Philly and Utah. So arranged all of that. And then when I got off of like the dollar, you know, Chinatown bus that took me from New York to Philadelphia, there was a group of police there. In New York? In Philadelphia?

[Interviewer]

How do they know?

[Carrie Farrell]

So there are multiple versions of the story, but they were tipped off by someone in the band that I was coming.

[Interviewer]

Holy shit.

[Carrie Farrell]

And they, they didn't arrest me immediately. It wasn't a thing where legally they were allowed to do that, but I knew what was going on. So I went and spoke to them and was just like, okay.

[Interviewer]

Did you ever find out who in the band?

[Carrie Farrell]

There was a person who claimed it actually, like wrote an article, but I don't know. And that was. The other thing is that they, I think, thought that they were gonna get a lot of love from being the person who. Who, quote, turned me in. But I remember, like, a lot of the comments being like, why? Why would you do that? Like, what? Like, really, you're gonna. Whatever. Either way, that's really what started, you know, this road to redemption. But I want to be very clear that the redemption, for me, I don't believe that it came from being incarcerated. I believe that it came from the people I met while I was incarcerated. And there's a big difference.

[Interviewer]

Not from the system itself, but by the people. I hear that. That constantly. And, yeah, I have a hard time believing. I mean, I don't think prison. The prison system in America redeems anyone. And that's not even their goal. It seems like it should be, but that's not. Yeah, their goal is to make money, because they do.

[Carrie Farrell]

And they make a lot of it off of every single.

[Interviewer]

Right. Yeah. There's a crazy statistic that if you. For every dollar you put into the education of people in prison, it's $5 that you save from actually having them incarcerated. Because recidivism drops dramatically once you actually leave prison. More educated. And. Yeah, it's.

[Carrie Farrell]

It's.

[Interviewer]

The statistics are all there. And it's just. I think a lack of will and seeing people who are in prison is not deserving, which I think is wrong.

[Carrie Farrell]

And a lot of people don't realize that. So, you know that they. They. These privately owned prisons, which is just like they're. You're a scourge.

[Interviewer]

Is that where you were detained?

[Carrie Farrell]

I was in one of those. So not only are they making money from the government for each person, but that it's what they call a pay to stay state. And so the inmates are literally charged for every day that they're incarcerated, and that is part of their restitution. So you're putting people in a position who are typically, you know, financially insecure already and then letting them out with nothing. It's very difficult to get a job as a, you know, person with a record.

[Interviewer]

So, wait, so if you're paying for being in prison, essentially, do you owe them money once you leave the prison? How much did you owe?

[Carrie Farrell]

I honestly cannot remember. It's funny, because on the way here, I was looking up stats to see if I could remember how much it was per day for Utah. Right now, it's anywhere from 30 to 45 dollars a day. I can't remember what it was for me at the time, but it was.

[Interviewer]

Right. Significant.

[Carrie Farrell]

I mean, and I was there for almost like, you know, a year. So that's. You know, we're just setting. We're really setting people.

[Interviewer]

So was there a trial that happened or what? Tell me about that.

[Carrie Farrell]

So you. You're Philadelphia. I was there for about a month. And I remember the. The law is like, because I didn't do anything in Philadelphia. They were like. They were holding me for Utah, and Utah had. I think it was 30 or 31 days to come and get me. And I remember it was like day 28 or something. And I was like, oh, maybe they're not gonna come. Maybe they're not coming. Sure enough, they did. And so I was literally handcuffed on a plane, like Con Air, except for it wasn't just a plane of cons. It was a. It was like a domestic American flight.

[Interviewer]

It was like.

[Carrie Farrell]

Or delta. I don't remember what it was. Were you.

[Interviewer]

Were you chained?

[Carrie Farrell]

Were you.

[Interviewer]

You were. You had handcuffs.

[Carrie Farrell]

And they gave me this massive windbreaker. It was, like, from the 90s. It was like all these, like, bright colors. I was like, great. Totally, like, not going to attract attention with this.

[Interviewer]

But they had cut holes the. The. The hipster.

[Carrie Farrell]

You know what? Haven't ever thought about it that way, but absolutely. That was definitely, like, from the same Salvation army that I used to shop at, but they had cut a hole in the pocket so that.

[Interviewer]

Oh, wow. So you could fit the.

[Carrie Farrell]

Cuffed, but not visible. I mean, if you knew what was up. Clearly there are, like, two. They're plain clothes, but, like, right.

[Interviewer]

Big guys, people.

[Carrie Farrell]

Like, it was actually a woman and a man, but, yeah, flanking me, like, walking. Right. Obviously. But, yeah, I sat in the very, very back of the plane. Obviously, you know, like, the flight attendants knew what was going on. And, yeah, I was. I was shipped back to. Extradited. Back to Utah and something about it. You know, I would love to know how much money the state of Utah spent on not just getting me back, but on. On everything, because I guarantee. And, you know, yeah, I guarantee it was a lot more than.

[Interviewer]

Than you actually still took, for sure.

[Carrie Farrell]

But again, you know, I had a lawyer tell me, yeah, the judge wants to throw the book at you because they want to make an example out of you. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I think in many ways, they see even if we're paying more money than she actually stole, in many ways, it's also prevention. Right. And it's enacting the laws, and they see it. We have to get. She did. She broke the laws.

[Carrie Farrell]

She has To.

[Interviewer]

She broke the law. She has to be in.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, but they put a lot of time and effort and money into it. That's, you know, they don't. For everyone.

[Interviewer]

And you don't think that would have happened if you hadn't become suddenly national news in any way, right?

[Carrie Farrell]

Absolutely. Regardless of who I am, what I look like, whatever, if it hadn't been a big news story, there's no way that they would have spent the time to find me. You know, it probably would have been. I would never be able to go back there. But. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And so you arrived in Salt Lake City and then there was a trial, or did you. You plead guilty and.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, so, I mean, there were. I guess, yes, there was a trial, but it wasn't because, again, it was the banks who were filing not.

[Interviewer]

Not civil suits.

[Carrie Farrell]

Not.

[Interviewer]

I mean, not people.

[Carrie Farrell]

But yeah, for the. For. I mean, for all the felonies and everything, it was these banks. So it was like the state of Utah versus me. And so basically, you know, you go through the process of appearing in court so many times, dates are getting canceled, rescheduled constantly, so you're really in a state of limbo. And I was, again, super fortunate that I was able to find an attorney that, quite honestly, you know, I was like, listen, there's a story here. Do you good. You know, you're a good attorney, but is there any possible way that you would. Would cut me a little bit of a deal? Because there's a moment here.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Carrie Farrell]

And he was kind enough to do so. But it's. It's. There are a lot of people who can't, and they have public defenders, which are for the most part doing. I mean, they're saints, but they're overworked, they're overloaded.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Carrie Farrell]

You can't pay as much attention to every single person. And so, yeah, I was. I was very fortunate. But even still, you know, it took months and months and months and months for me to be sentenced.

[Interviewer]

And. And you were spending that time where?

[Carrie Farrell]

In mostly the Salt Lake City Adult detention center in D.C. and I say mostly because I had written some checks in other counties, and so there were like, you know, you know, sometimes I'd be for like three or four days at another jail in a different county taking care of. Of those charges for the most part. I mean, you know, once I was sentenced, I had already been in jail for a significant amount of time. So they did give me, you know, that time counted toward the sentence.

[Interviewer]

The sentence itself.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And so you only spent a few more Months after that. Yeah.

[Carrie Farrell]

So I was there for. In total. Total, it was like ten and a half months. Months. That stint there had been, you know, a couple in Utah prior to me leaving, which is how and why I had a mug shot to begin with. So. Yeah, but that was the. That was the long haul and was.

[Interviewer]

What, for the sentencing? Were your parents there?

[Carrie Farrell]

No. No media was, though. Yeah, my. My parents, you know, they were put through it in so many ways as well, because they had. Again, I cannot stress how crazy it is to me how big this got, because there were journalists knocking on their door. You know, my mom lived in Arizona, a state totally unrelated to all of this, you know, and people were calling them people, so it was really. I mean, it would have been traumatic for them anyway, being a parent who. The child you care about and love is going through it. But, yeah, I was on another level.

[Interviewer]

And what was your relationship with them at the time?

[Carrie Farrell]

At the time, it was very. They supported me throughout, you know, as far as, like, communicating with me. Letters. Yeah. You know, they would answer the phone when I called. They were putting money on my book sometimes. But really, you know, it was a lot of time to reckon with all of the relationships that I had destroyed, including. Yeah. The one with my parents.

[Interviewer]

There's an interesting moment in, I think, your book where you talk about how as a kid, still, the people would go up to you, or this one woman, I think it was in a supermarket. She went up to you and said that. Something that made you feel like you were lucky to have been adopted by these wonderful. By this wonderful white couple. And that made you feel like you now sort of for the rest of your life, had to live up to that. Right. Can you talk a little bit about that and how. And how that relates to then being in prison and how you felt about that?

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah. So that's pretty much the. The story is that I remember sitting in the cart, my mom, you know, shopping, and someone came up to us and was just like, oh, you're so lucky that your parents saved you. Wow.

[Interviewer]

And you're like, how old at this point?

[Carrie Farrell]

I mean, I was young enough to be sitting in the front of the car. You know what I mean?

[Interviewer]

The little shopping cart. Right. Wow. And.

[Carrie Farrell]

But that was like, one occurrence of many, you know, and it's people who meant. Well, obviously they weren't, but it was very much the. I grew up feeling not only like so many parts of me were just wrong and, again, a sin, but also that if I ever questioned my feelings around my adoption or adoption in general, that I was being ungrateful. And then, you know. So that is definitely a good example of being able to feel multiple ways.

[Interviewer]

Right? Yeah. There's this enormous pressure already when you're growing up. Right. But having to also make sure that you're not disappointing your parents because in so many ways, they. You were so lucky that they saved you, which is not the case. But that's how that was instilled in you at such a younger age. Young age, yeah. That must have weighed so heavily on you.

[Carrie Farrell]

It weighed very heavily on me, and it still does. That's something that, you know, my hundreds of hours of therapy have been dedicated to. But I think a big thing, too, though, is for adoptive parents, you know, sometimes it's hard for them when. When their child wants to discover more about their origin because, you know, they feel like maybe they're being faced or whatever it is. It's complicated. But I think something that I want to stress, especially for, you know, a lot of these Korean adoptions is that everyone was a victim. Like, adoptive parents were victims. Like, it was. You know, sometimes I do wonder, okay, why an Asian baby specifically? Right. Like. Like, did you want people to know immediately that they had adopted? Was it, like, you just thought Asian babies were the cutest? Like, beyond that, though, you know, everyone had been lied to. So I think that, again, people were just doing the best they could at the time, and we just did not understand the importance of. At least where I was, didn't understand the importance of culture.

[Interviewer]

Do you think you're free of that now, this idea of owing them something?

[Carrie Farrell]

No, I think that's a tough one. I think I always. I still. There are so many times where I'm just like, oh, my God, no, you can't feel that way. You know, like, you can't be upset or confused about this. Like, you know, and it's like, no, actually I can, because it is confusing and it is upsetting, but it's also, like, beautiful and loving and all of the things.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. With, like, any relationship with parents and families.

[Carrie Farrell]

And I think that's what's like, really the thing about my story is, yes, I took so many things to the nth degree, but ultimately, it's very relatable in a lot of ways. Right. Everyone knows what it feels like to not be accepted, to be teased, to wait for the other shoe to drop, you know, and unfortunately, especially now, people know what it feels like to be in financial distress of, like, wow, if I lost my job, I would have to do Something probably pretty drastic to be able to pay rent this month. What would that look like?

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Carrie Farrell]

And I'm not saying that's necessarily where I was at, but I think it's easy for people to see. Okay. You know, sometimes people are in a state of mind where it's just kind of like, gotta do what you gotta do.

[Interviewer]

Right. So. So prison, you said, mentioned many times, not prison itself, but the people inside changed you. Can you explain that? Like, what kind of people did you meet and what impact did that have on you?

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, I mean, I met all kinds of people. However, just because, again, statistically, a lot of those people were women of color. And so in Utah, a lot, you know, just with the proximity to the border, there were a lot of people who were going through, I mean, you know, immigration issues that I just saw that were. It was so unfair. They were being persecuted more so because of the status that they did or did not have as far as citizenship goes or, you know, whatever that may be. And obviously we're seeing that on.

[Interviewer]

On display now.

[Carrie Farrell]

It was a lot of people, you know, I. I write about it, but you could see people who had the same exact charges as, you know, a white woman, and they were getting much heavier and longer.

[Interviewer]

Sometimes.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, so it was that. It was seeing people who were there for assault when, you know, they were defending themselves from a domestic abuse situation. I remember that happens a lot. One woman who had a. A charge that was assault with a weapon or like battery or. I can't remember what the exact charge was, but it was because she hit this guy with a hairbrush.

[Interviewer]

Oh, wow. Wow.

[Carrie Farrell]

And that became a weapon. And she was simply just trying to get herself and her children out of a tough spot. And that's the other thing is that I think it's 54% of women who are incarcerated have kids. So you're, you know, destroying these families. And people are, again, very quick to say, well, didn't they destroy it themselves? Because they're the ones. The ones who did the, you know, committed the crime. And it's like, if only things were so right, Straightforward.

[Interviewer]

Right. I think people also, also are always very curious about the danger inside prisons and the gangs and all of that. But what, what in. In your case, where were sort of or were there any sort of displays of kindness and humanity? And can you tell me some of those cases?

[Carrie Farrell]

So, so many. And then I can tell you a fun.

[Interviewer]

A fun, dangerous one.

[Carrie Farrell]

But, yeah, kindness constantly, like, I mean, everyone. Yes, you are in it for yourself and you're Looking out for yourself first and foremost. But everyone, at least you know, where I was, which is. Was in multiple facilities. Everyone just wanted to help. And that's not to say that they weren't gaining something by helping you. Sometimes it was more of an exchange. But what relationship isn't, you know, but really it was people like, oh, you don't have money on your books. I'm gonna buy you some ramen noodles. It could be, you know, trading library books. It could just be being there for one another to talk to. I mean, I remember birthdays would come and, you know, we would be, you know, quote unquote, baking cakes by, you know, getting all these different treats on commissary and smashing them together. Like, you know, there was. There's a lot of. Also jailhouse ingenuity that absolutely make stuff happen.

[Interviewer]

I want to hear the dangerous story, but I also. There's something you said about how for so long you always felt different, but in prison was the first time. Can you say that or can you explain that, that you felt like you were part of something larger.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah. There was like a weird acceptance. Right. Of like, okay, we're all sort of at the bottom of, you know, the.

[Interviewer]

Of.

[Carrie Farrell]

Of this hierarchy.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah. Of society in many ways. Right, right.

[Carrie Farrell]

It's like, okay, well, we band together and we look out for one another and we, you know, cry with one another when people are given these crazy sentences or when people's children are sick or, you know, I mean, there were so many instances of things that happen on a day to day that because you don't have the access to, you know, communication, media, whatever, that you're just sort of left in the dark and you're left to your own devices and, and the only other people you have consistently are, you know, the other, the.

[Interviewer]

Other women or the other inmates. Yeah, they became your. They become your family. So everything that they're going through matters tremendously to you.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah. And I think in women's prisons specifically, you know, unfortunately, a lot of women have been sexually assaulted. So then you put them in situations where they're basically living. Living in fishbowls. And the majority of corrections officers, you know, in the police force are men. So you're putting them in situations where men are just watching them all the time. Like, how is that doing anything for. How is that safety? How is that, you know, And I don't feel that any of these places are meant for. Made for people, but especially not for women.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. And women who have been abused and women who have been abused did you ever feel that, that sort of power dynamic or did you ever feel unsafe from that perspective?

[Carrie Farrell]

You know, it's so fascinating because I was almost on the opposite end of the spectrum because my case had media attention. The guards were very nice to me. Like, I remember there was one who would like play music for me over the intercom, like into my case cell, like that kind of stuff. Whereas, you know, then you would see, I guess, the, you know, I don't like to. But the, the regular everyday inmate and, you know, no one was getting it.

[Interviewer]

You were treated differently because you were kind of like famous, right? You were like the famous person in prison. So. Yeah, yeah, I understand that. And, and tell me about the dangerous story then.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, so I. In Philadelphia. So Philadelphia was, I guess the, the best comparison is it was, it was like Orange is the New Black, right? Where you have some, ironically, some freedom to like walk around. Right. You're, you're not always handcuffed when you leave your pod. You can freely walk to the library or whatever Utah was. Even though I was a non violent offender, we were in ourselves for the majority of the time. You know, we got out anywhere from like four to six hours a day.

[Interviewer]

Again. How is that reforming people? Right. How is that working on them and making them better people when they leave prison? Right.

[Carrie Farrell]

Interestingly enough, one of the things that you were allowed to get out of yourself for was yoga, which I appreciate that they had, but also, you know, religious things and activities and groups. And so many of them are Mormon. And so, you know, there are a. Of lot of people who were getting converted while incarcerated, which is not, not by design, but in Philadelphia we had much more, you know, freedom to sort of, you know, be in other people's cells as well, get your hair done, that kind of thing. But that also meant that the inmates were able to band together more so in ways that you aren't when you're fully isolated. And so, yeah, there were situations where, you know, things would happen, interactions between corrections officers and some of the women there, and a full blown riot took place.

[Interviewer]

Oh, shit.

[Carrie Farrell]

Which was so crazy. And I was terrified. Like, this was not a thing I ever, I don't know if anyone ever expects to be in this position, but I certainly was like.

[Interviewer]

So the inmates sort of turned against the.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yes. Yeah. And ultimately there were, I mean, you know, people using their lunch trays as shields. The. The CO was called backup. So there were, you know, a dozen people in riot gear coming in, trying to come in.

[Interviewer]

Wow. What were you doing at this Point.

[Carrie Farrell]

And I would. Well, I was panicking. I mean, I was kind of frozen in place. Just like, what the fuck is going on? Also, what do I. I do. Like, also, what can I do? And someone took care of me. They were like, come on, let's get you into your cell. Go and sit down like another inmate. Like, let's. Let's get you out of this. Because basically, I mean, they didn't say this, but essentially it was like, you're not ready for this. You're not capable. You're not capable of taking care of yourself in this situation. So, yeah, and it was. It was over very quickly. And. But it. It was. That was wild.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, that is wild. Did you write about it in the book? I can't wait to get to that part. Yeah, that's great.

[Carrie Farrell]

And then you'll see how it all came to be. Because it wasn't. It wasn't just out of the blue. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Huh. Okay.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, I will read it. I love.

[Interviewer]

I love it. Making people want to read it, hopefully.

[Carrie Farrell]

And.

[Interviewer]

Okay. And then you left prison, and they were. You had a really hard time. Can you tell me a little bit about that period? And is it true that you were homeless at one point, too?

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, so when I got out, I was like, okay, what am I going to do with my life? Like, I was getting. I was contacted. I was being contacted, you know, by a lot of different publications, by production companies wanting to make documentaries. Wanted. One of the things I used to flex while I was incarcerated was that I was talking to Inside Edition. And so, you know, they were. I was on the phone with them a lot. They were sending me things, and that was like such a, you know, like, ooh, look at me.

[Interviewer]

Like, sending you gifts.

[Carrie Farrell]

Not gifts, but just, like, information, like packets, questions, like, things to sign if I wanted to participate, you know.

[Interviewer]

So they were hoping to do an interview with you once you left, and they did.

[Carrie Farrell]

We actually ended up doing it. But, yeah, when I got out, I was like, okay, so I either have to, like, fully lean into being this character. Right. This person.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Like a celebrity con artist, essentially. Yeah.

[Carrie Farrell]

Because it was like. Because also it was.

[Interviewer]

Or a former con artist, by the way.

[Carrie Farrell]

But really, I mean, I could be. I could be former as much as I want. I. Even still to this day, people sometimes choose to, you know, call you a con artist, too. They don't. And I, you know, know, also media and entertainment, the landscape, it's like, yeah, sometimes you have to kind of lean into that a little bit. So, sure, call me A con artist if you want. But now my con is, like, to go up against, you know, the real scammers. I like it, but I didn't know what I was gonna do, and I just wanted to, like, fade into obscurity because I was. Yeah. Over it. But, like, I didn't want to be known as just that person. Even though I think that I probably could have, like, made a decent living off of it. I mean, other people have gone on to show that that's totally possible, but I. That's not what I wanted. And so I was like, okay, I'm just gonna get my shit together. I knew that I wanted to come back to New York, so I requested a transfer for my probation and was able to come back, but while I was still in Utah, because it took a while to get that approval. I was homeless, and so I literally was, like, finding people to stay with on Craigslist that those were not good situations. You know, it's like staying with, you know, random.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Carrie Farrell]

Couples. Random men, you know, And I think it's just a good example of showing how hard it can be to even attempt to do the right thing, you know?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Carrie Farrell]

And.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Carrie Farrell]

Oh, sorry, go ahead.

[Interviewer]

No, yeah. The system is stacked up against you, I think, when you leave prison. And very much so.

[Carrie Farrell]

Very much so.

[Interviewer]

Very hard to.

[Carrie Farrell]

And I was fortunate because I actually met my partner who we've been married for almost 15 years. Oh, I didn't know you were married. That's great. We met while I was in Utah on probation, and he was one of the first people that I was just like, okay, I'm gonna be straight up honest with you. Like, here's what's going on. Here's who I was, slash, am. And. And, yeah, I mean, it has. I joke that we were the kind of crazy that worked. My crazy worked with his crazy. And, you know, we have an amazing life and kind of architected it to be the way that we want it to be, both with our relationship, but also just the way that we move through the world together and separately. But he was a bit big. Part of why I was able to get out of my homeless situation was because he helped to. We helped each other really get back on the right path.

[Interviewer]

And then you both moved to New York together.

[Carrie Farrell]

But he actually. Former military, and so at the time was working for a contractor, ultimately the Department of Defense. So the first two years of our relationship, he was in Afghanistan, huh? Yeah. So it was. You know, there's a lot. There are a lot of similarities with being Incarcerated and being in the military, like, so we bonded over a lot of that.

[Interviewer]

And you said when you came out, you had a lot of opportunities to be on TV and do shows, but you decided you didn't want to at the time. It didn't feel right. It didn't feel right to make money out of something that ultimately you felt shame around.

[Carrie Farrell]

It was that and it was just like, like knowing that I didn't want to be known for this thing. And you know, I'm sure there will be listeners, viewers who are like, haha, well, you wrote a book about it, you know, but it's like, yes, 15, 16 years later, you know, this was not. I had taken a lot of time to process all of this and really come to see, you know. Yeah, that I mean, obviously I knew what I was doing was wrong, but really to see how and why and again, the long term effects of those things. And I think in many ways, oddly enough, like the media controlled my own narrative about myself right. At that during those periods of time. And now I'm able to see like, hey, I do actually have, have an interesting story and I have such an interesting story on its own that I never needed to lie, but I never felt like it was good enough on its own or, you know, whatever. And so yeah, now, I mean my work is really dedicated to again, talking about all of these issues and things.

[Interviewer]

I care about, but including prison reform, right?

[Carrie Farrell]

Yep, that's a big one. Advocacy around that and the judicial, judicial system and the carceral state in general. Other human rights issues. Obviously a lot of things around, you know, LGBTQ issues, especially coming from the state of Utah.

[Interviewer]

Right. I think that's so, so awesome that you are being able to then use your platform and even the things that you did wrong, but turning it around and then using it as a. Yeah, like a platform. Platform to make changes and to, to, to, to, to talk about stuff. Things that are important for you.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah. All through dark comedy and like, yeah. A salacious Internet presence. Because I really, I mean I kind of find that ironic in a lot of ways that I'm doing kind of the same things that made the story so popular and big to begin with, but now for a purpose. And, and I really appreciate, first of all that people are so open to, you know, me doing this and wanting to listen and again, so, so appreciative for anyone and everyone who reads my book, whatever follows me, you know, But I just don't see the point in any of this if not trying to make things Better for others, especially those from marginalized communities. And really, to be totally honest with you, and this is not to say that I haven't loved this conversation, but I'm so over telling my story, you know, I'm like.

[Interviewer]

And I could see that through it, you're trying to process constantly and every word you're saying, you're trying to sort of explain yourself, but also then not trying to make it feel like you're trying to come up with too many excuses for why you did with what you did. And there's. Yeah, there's like, there must be a lot of pressure in that too.

[Carrie Farrell]

It's a lot of pressure. And it's also like, you know, my whole thing is, okay, let's. That was that. That's what made, like, sure, you know, but now let's look to the future.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Carrie Farrell]

What is happening? And so I, through dark comedy, I mean, I truly believe in education through entertainment. I think that it's so easy to like, like an Instagram carousel. You're like, agree with every single word. But then if someone asks you five minutes later, what, what did that say?

[Interviewer]

Like, you can't, you can't remember.

[Carrie Farrell]

Right. But if you really connect with something like a piece of art, you, you know, that's how people absorb information. So I have a production company called Without Wax. And, you know, I really want to concentrate on telling other people's stories, specifically, you know, other or queer women of color, but just anyone. I think that mine has very much served an incredible purpose. And I'm like, all right, what's next? And that's really. Again, I think I've always, I've always been a storyteller, for better or worse. And mine is. Yeah, I just.

[Interviewer]

What do you hope your impact is in the world? What do you hope your story will tell in the haha. That's a big question. But. Yeah, what. What do you want to leave behind?

[Carrie Farrell]

I mean, I hope I. I would love to get to a point where I'm able to make real, actual change within legislation. Is that going to be possible? I don't know, but I would like to have made a difference in those ways. But at the very least in just getting people to think about things in through a different lens, you know, through a more compassionate lens. I think a lot of times some of the facts and things that I talk about about these places, people don't realize, you know, again, like the pay to stay aspect of it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I have no idea. And I've reported a lot on prisons.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah. So it's it's, it's just, you know, moving the needle toward a more compassionate society and looking at why we see punishment the way that we do. You know, you mentioned it earlier. It's like, how could we expect, you know, treating people this way for them to be able to get out and do what they need to do to live productive lives.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Carrie Farrell]

Like, so, yeah, really just. I think I have a very unique perspective on. On all of this, on life, honestly, in general, because it's been a wacky one and the hits just keep on coming. Like, I've. Chaos attracts chaos and there's no getting around that. I have just learned how to channel the chaos into productivity. And I think that's so important and that's also something that has to be taught. So I would really love for my work to showcase that. And maybe there's someone out there where this can be a sort of cautionary, in the beginning, cautionary tale, but then a, I don't know, uplifting one in the sense that, like, yeah, you can move forward.

[Interviewer]

Right. And a story that shows nuance and shows. Yeah. All the spaces in between.

[Carrie Farrell]

Yeah, I think that. And I. I'm not thinking of anyone in particular, but, you know, there's like, times where I get contacted a lot where it's like, oh, there's this new scammer out. Do you want to talk about them? Like, you know, it's just like, oh, well, you're a grifter, they're a grifter. What do you have to say? And it's like, I don't. I rarely, rarely. I don't think I've ever actually done one of those. But it's like, you know, people will take their own paths and they can do what they want. But I feel very strongly about, if you have a platform, you need to.

[Interviewer]

Use it for good.

[Carrie Farrell]

You need to be doing something with it that makes some sort of change, you know, because, again, like, I'm so fortunate. But now I just get to work with all of my friends who are the most amazing, incredible, smartest, hottest, you know, creative people in the world. And, you know, I can't. I can't forget that I put in a lot of work to be that great friend to be that great partner to be. And of course, I still have faults. I think that's the other thing is it's no one you can change, but you a shouldn't want to change everything and you shouldn't just based upon ideological stuff. I think it's so interesting when we talk about like, okay, this is a new chapter. Like, okay, sure, maybe it's a new chapter, but it's the same book. So, like, let's not pretend like that this didn't happen. That this didn't happen. And I, again, am lucky because I'm in a place where I can own it fully and it's an asset in some ways, but there are a lot of people who can't because it will end their careers or it will make it impossible for them to, you know, for their kid to get into a certain daycare. Like, it's, it really extends beyond the individual.

[Interviewer]

Right? Yeah. And I think that not everybody who even is able to own their own stories ends up doing it. So I commend you for that and commend you for telling your own story in such a funny way, which is even better. And I really enjoy talking to you. I love how you're vulnerable, how you've obviously done the work in looking at the stuff you do. I also understand that you're really fed up of talking about this, so I appreciate you giving us the time to sharing your story. Story.

[Carrie Farrell]

Again, thank you so much. And I, I, you know, again, I, I didn't mean to sound flippant or anything, and it's just like, okay, this is. I love having these kinds of conversations because then I am able to talk about things that actually matter.

[Interviewer]

Matter for you.

[Carrie Farrell]

But, you know, sometimes there will be these almost like shock jock kind of podcasts or radio shows where it's like, they just want the meaty, juicy stuff. And I'm like, okay, but I can give that to, to you in other ways.

[Interviewer]

Right?

[Carrie Farrell]

I'm like, I can be me and Juicy in many. Right.

[Interviewer]

Without rehashing the whole thing.

[Carrie Farrell]

But, yeah, thank you so much for all the work that you do.

[Interviewer]

And thank you. Oh, the honor is all mine.

[Carrie Farrell]

And I'm going to say it again.

[Interviewer]

Because I'm right at the beginning of the book, but I'm loving it so much that people should read it. You'll never believe me. A life of lies, second tries, and things I should only tell you. My therapist, Carrie, loved having you on the podcast. Thank you for coming.

[Carrie Farrell]

Thank you. I appreciate it.