A (1:36)

Okay, so you know Seattle, Washington.

B (1:39)

Yep.

A (1:39)

So you take a bridge across and you land in Bellevue. And that's kind of like the.

B (1:43)

The suburbs.

A (1:44)

Partial suburbs. Like we have a downtown Bellevue, you know, so we still have the city life, but it is more of like the tech, upper class, ish kind of Seattle area.

B (1:55)

And what did your parents do?

A (1:57)

So my dad was a heart doctor. So he founded this company called Life Systems Corp. And super, super smart guy. Like he founded a lot of stuff, had patents, and sadly, at some point, things didn't go too well. I mean, he lost his patent over war. I might be wrong on this, cause I actually haven't researched it, but I was always told this when I was growing up, that he actually created the first artificial heart that could work in a body more than 24 hours.

B (2:25)

Wow, that's incredible.

A (2:26)

Yeah. So my dad's super SM, super super smart.

B (2:30)

And with your dad's originally he's Iranian, right?

A (2:33)

Iranian, yes. So he came from Iran, he got a scholarship. He really came from nothing and brought it back here to Washington.

B (2:41)

And your mom is Brazilian?

A (2:42)

Yes, my mom was born and raised in Brazil.

B (2:44)

Okay, so they're here, your dad loses his patent and then what would happen?

A (2:49)

So like at that time my dad had already met my mom. You know, they'd been together, but they divorced when I was like 5 years old. So I was an early divorced single child kid.

B (2:59)

What was that like for you?

A (3:01)

Very, very interesting. I had like kind of the balance of between like a low income and a high income family. I would go to my dad's and it would definitely be, you know, more higher class, you know, bigger house and everything. And then on the other side, my mom was kind of like always struggling for a while.

B (3:18)

So like how did that affect you?

A (3:20)

Yeah, I mean it opened my eyes. I mean more than anything, like it made me really learn like how valuable life is when you don't have resources, like how desperate people can get and like what can happen from that.

B (3:33)

It's interesting. That's a little bit like the experience that I had too growing up. So my parents divorced when I was three and my dad definitely made a lot more money than my mom. With my mom, we lived in a small three bedroom apartment. We were all sort of on top of each other and my dad had this big house that he had just built with his new wife and the new kids. And there was a pool and there was cable. First time I ever saw cable. And it was really interesting because I'd spend the weeks at my dad's, at my mom's house and then on the weekends I'd go to this. Yeah, this big rich house.

A (4:05)

Yeah, right.

B (4:05)

It was very different.

A (4:07)

Yeah, very, very different per se. And you know, like, it was always kind of interesting because like, you know, on the low income side you have more freedom. So like you feel like you have more power but you know, you go to the other side, you're more restricted, but you know, you can eat better. And you know, it's just the balance of it was very, very interesting.

B (4:24)

At what point did you realize that you were really good with computers?

A (4:28)

I think pretty, pretty early. Like it was around 8 or 9. It came around.

B (4:34)

What happened? How did you realize?

A (4:35)

It started with at my dad's lab. So my dad had a laboratory obviously with all his heart stuff and Whatnot. And so he would bring me to work as a kid, and I'd get lost in there, and I'd go and harass all the engineers that had computers. Because at that time, computers weren't really around. You didn't have a PC at home that much, you know. So being around those computers and kind of seeing them and what they were doing, like, kind of opened my eyes even more.

B (4:58)

So immediately you were interested.

A (4:59)

You were like, oh, out the gate. Like, I wanted to know more. And I have this, like, very, very permanent memory in my head, and it's my dad dissecting a heart out of a rat. And I'm, like, looking at it and, like, being like, that's a rat. That's the heart. And I remember him taking it out and putting it in a machine and watching it pump, being like, that's a little too weird. I want to go to the computer and play on that. Like, it like, freaked me out for a minute. It was really, really.

B (5:28)

I think that's understandable. Was your dad. Do you think your dad wanted you to be a doctor as well?

A (5:32)

I don't know if he wanted me to be a doctor. I think he just wanted me to be successful, like, whatever I wanted to do.

B (5:37)

And then you got into gaming really early.

A (5:39)

I did.

B (5:40)

Tell me about that.

A (5:41)

So, of course, like, fascination with computers, it comes with gaming because when you're a kid, you get on the computer, the only thing you care about is pretty much games. So I downloaded everything on my dad's computer at that time. Probably messed up, like, half of the company business. Like, just downloading stuff and trying games that I probably was ever not supposed to access.

B (6:00)

Which ones do you remember?

A (6:01)

Oh, I mean, this is, like, way, way back. I mean, I'm talking about, like, when Frogger was, like, a thing. Like when we still had games on floppy disks. So I was like five or six, you know, right before the CD rom. I remember it was right before it.

B (6:15)

Which one was Frogger? What year?

A (6:17)

Frogger is like, when you had to cross the street with the frog. And then we had, like, Pac Man. Like, obviously, like.

B (6:23)

Okay, I was hoping you'd say Pac Man.

A (6:24)

Yeah, yeah, that's what I remember. And of course, Pong. You know, Pong is like the default that carried on forever that, you know, was always withstanding. And then do came around, which was like a big one for me.

B (6:34)

Tetris. Did you do Tetris?

A (6:35)

I did Tetris, but I didn't really get into it. I was always fascinated with people that could play it competitively.

B (6:40)

You're much younger than me when you were born.

A (6:43)

1995.

B (6:44)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Much younger. Not gonna say how much younger. So I remember for me, gaming, the first thing I started with was. I remember being the first thing I got addicted to in gaming was Tetris for sure. I was obsessed with Tetris. And then really addicted was Pac man actually. And you got to a point where there was an arc gaming garden about five minutes from my high school and me and my friends. And you'd have to put coins.

A (7:10)

Quarters in, right? Or.

B (7:11)

Yeah, the Portuguese equivalent of quarters. And we actually, it was a point where we didn't have any more coins left, but we really wanted to finish these games and we were missing class and snack it and we'd go up to like these guys that were in the arcade and ask them for money.

A (7:26)

Money, right.

B (7:27)

15, 14 year old kid, girls.

A (7:29)

But it's a different idea, right?

B (7:31)

But it's totally a different.

A (7:32)

You got, you got hooked into it and you know, you play it and like those games cool to me. But then I remember like when the Xbox came out.

B (7:39)

Yeah.

A (7:39)

And like for me that was like the biggest thing ever.

B (7:43)

So I did. I never went there. So that's. Yeah. So my, my gaming career ended at Tetris. But you continued. Yeah.

A (7:49)

Tell me what you continued. Yeah, I continued. You know, I remember when Xbox came out, I was just. I don't know how I even figured out about it, but I was constantly asking my mom or dad and eventually my dad gave in and bought me an Xbox. And then to follow because I had divorced parents, so I had to convince my mom to let me buy one, you know, so I was hodling Xboxes back and forth between them. Divorced parents, trying to play games.

B (8:14)

Were you carrying your Xbox from one house to the other?

A (8:17)

I had like a little luggage. It was kind of like my way that I would go back and forth between both parents that I'd carry my Xbox and a couple pair of clothes and never carried about, never cared about homework. It was always just about.

B (8:28)

Oh yeah. So you weren't a good student?

A (8:30)

No, I was actually a terrible student.

B (8:32)

Really? Yeah, I was really surprising because you were obviously very smart. Were you just not interested at all?

A (8:37)

Distracted? Very, very distracted.

B (8:39)

Do you have you been diagnosed with adhd?

A (8:42)

I was, yeah. As a kid I was diagnosed with add.

B (8:45)

Okay.

A (8:45)

And it was funny. I got into special education and then it was about sophomore year of high school. They did a reevaluation of me and then for one reason, something Another, I was like, I'm going to try my heart out on this test. Like, I just want to see. And I scored insanely high. Like, I was college level. And they were like, we can't have you in this class. And I panicked because me as a kid, like, those classes for me was how I could spend time on the computer. Because while the teacher was talking about whatever, I was actually worried about who I was chatting with, how I could get hacks more, you know, try to advance my business of what I was doing as a kid.

B (9:31)

What business?

A (9:32)

I was selling hacks. So I got into a lucrative market of selling cheats pretty much on Xbox at one point. You know, that's definitely far down the line.

B (9:41)

You're going too fast.

A (9:42)

I'm definitely skipping down the line of.

B (9:43)

So wait, so you were diagnosed with ADD when you were younger, and then later on they basically realized, actually, he's not ADD anymore and we want to advance him.

A (9:53)

And so I panicked and I pled to let me retake the test.

B (9:56)

And then you did.

A (9:57)

I purposely flunked it again.

B (9:58)

And then you were. I was back on to be on the.

A (10:01)

Yeah.

B (10:01)

Computer again.

A (10:02)

Yep. So. And that allowed me. And honestly, I would have not have passed high school if I didn't have changed my grades.

B (10:08)

Oh, wow. So you were always distracted and just not a very good student. And your parents were sad that they have conversations with you about it.

A (10:15)

Yeah, it was. It was a constant, like, problem, you know, like it was like parent teacher conference, you know. And then it got worse to a point, because elementary school, like, I start kind of learning how to hack, right. But then first year of middle school.

B (10:32)

Elementary school, started hacking. Okay, so tell me about that.

A (10:35)

I really love Trojans. You ever heard of a Trojan?

B (10:38)

No.

A (10:38)

It's a virus on a computer.

B (10:40)

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

A (10:41)

That lets you basically view in everything that somebody does. And you basically sneak it into a program because it's a Trojan, right? You know, like the Trojan horse, how they tell the story, they sneak it in. So basically you sneak this, what we call spyware so you can watch what people do on the computer. Right? So I mean, I learned all this at a really, really young age. And of course, I didn't learn the methodologies behind it, but I learned how to use it. Right. And people call it. They call this, what's called a script kitty. Right. It's like somebody that gets access to a whole bunch of tools, doesn't really understand the tools, but can cause mayhem with the tools. Right. Can still have an effect at the End of the day. And that was me in elementary school for sure.

B (11:21)

Who are you using this spyware arm?

A (11:22)

A lot of it was against my cousin. Like, my cousin always liked to think highly of me, that I was super smart, like the super hacker, and I loved to play into it. So it kind of forced me to, like, want to hack and to do more hacking and to hack against him. And he was always kind of paranoid and funny, so it was always just funny, like, when his computer was laying around. It was like. I never really had a target as a kid, so having, like, a target kind of, like, led me to figure all this out. And he was also into Trojans, but he couldn't really figure it out as much.

B (11:53)

He wasn't a smart.

A (11:54)

Yeah, exactly.

B (11:55)

So wait, so you were. At this point, it wasn't malicious. You were just. It was sort of a game.

A (12:01)

It was for pranks, you know, it wasn't malicious. I don't think it really became malicious till, like, way, way later in my life. You know, everything was just discovery fun and games, you know, nothing. Nothing crazy.

B (12:15)

Okay, and then you started. When did it start becoming a little bit more troublesome?

A (12:19)

I'd say. Well, coming around middle school, I took over my school systems network.

B (12:26)

Whoa. How old were you?

A (12:28)

I was. Well, I got in trouble officially of it in seventh grade, but it happened during. Within sixth grade. It happened twice, actually.

B (12:36)

That is so crazy.

A (12:37)

Yeah. So it was. It was a big deal. The police had to get involved.

B (12:41)

Wait, can you tell me, Wait, so you're at school and then what? You realize, actually, I can get into their system. What?

A (12:47)

We, at this time, like, computers, Windows computers are kind of being rolled out to schools more publicly. Like, this is kind of like a newer thing, right? Where, like, these school systems are getting set up for kids to use computers at school. Right. And computer classes are really becoming a thing. So of course I'm interested in all of that. But I already know a lot of hacking. I know a lot of Trojan malware stuff. So this wasn't like, even, like, a challenge for me. Like, I saw this, I was like, this is my next target as a kid. I'm here every day. Why. Why would I not try to own the place that I'm at? You know, it was pretty ridiculous.

B (13:22)

And then it was easy to do.

A (13:24)

It was, you know, it took a couple months. And the funniest way is that there was a shared drive in the school network that everybody could access. So if you logged into the computer, anybody was a user. There was a user drive that Anybody could access. So people were dropping photos. They were just dropping funny stuff in there all the time. You know, people would sometimes even drop computer games in there so other people could play. Of course, I was the one that dropped the Trojan malware in there.

B (13:53)

And so that allowed you to what? To get into the rest of the stuff that was.

A (13:56)

Anybody that ran it, I had access to, and I could see no way.

B (14:00)

So, say your colleague sitting next to you, if they got access to that, you got access to the person. To that person, to that colleague's computer.

A (14:08)

So pass. You know, elementary school, I'm learning all this, right? Well, now, middle school, I'm what's called a bot master. I'm, you know, we, at that time, we called it a slave master. We don't really call it that anymore, but a slave master, where it's. I control a botnet. So I have this system of computers, right, that whenever they run my program, they come to my net. So all I care about at the end of the day is how many numbers I have on that net, right. I don't care about if I make money, what I do with it. All I care about, can I get more hacked computers?

B (14:37)

Why?

A (14:38)

So I can sit at home and watch and see what happens.

B (14:40)

And that was the challenge.

A (14:42)

I loved that. I loved sitting and seeing stuff I wasn't supposed to. TaxAct knows filing taxes can be confusing. So we have live experts on hand who can help answer any questions you may have. Questions like, can I claim my SUV is my home office? If I answer work emails in my car? If I adopted 12 dogs this year, can I list them as dependents and am I doing this right or am I doing this very, very wrong? Our experts have the answers to those questions and many others. Taxact, let's get them over with.

B (15:17)

So basically, could you be at home and see what, say, Mrs. McGahan is doing on her computer? I actually had a teacher, McGahn, which is why I said her name, but. And sit down and see what she's doing on her computer at home or at school and see her grading reports.

A (15:33)

Exactly. It actually got more than that. So by the eighth grade, right? Because keep in mind, by elementary school, I was just focused on learning this stuff, like working it, can I use it? But by middle school, I'm actually learning, like, how do I program behind it? How do I make my own malware? How do I find stuff that actually innovates this game, right? So at that point, there was something called BadUSB. I found something called BadUSB Spreader.

B (15:56)

What's that?

A (15:57)

It was a plugin that you could run on VB.net, that would allow you. Every time you plugged in a USB drive, it would put the malware on that USB drive without you knowing. And when you take it out and plug it in a different computer, it would spread.

B (16:09)

And you were doing this around the school?

A (16:10)

Around, so. But the problem was, it didn't just start at the school. Kids were going with their homework, they're putting it in, and now they're going home. So now I'm not just hacking the school. I'm knowing everybody around me, what they're doing at home and what they do and their secrets and everybody else and everything connected. So it was a lot to take in as a kid, you know, and you start to question, like, what do you do? You know, do I really start to make money off of this? And at the time, I was so focused on Xbox and everything, I told myself, I don't need to make money off of this. This is just my fun and games.

B (16:44)

How would you have made money out of it?

A (16:45)

There's a lot of ways, actually, so. And I'll get into this. This is kind of another funny part where I got so obsessed with the bots and everything and the whole community. I didn't just start focusing on getting more bots, I focused on more bot masters. Right? If I could hack a bot master himself, I gather all his bots and they come to my net. So I do remember at my peak, it was about more than 200,000 computers at once. Connected at once, no way. And at that point, I was getting really scared. I was getting really scared because I did have people that knew I was running these nets. I was selling loads at the time, was what we call it. So what you do is when you have this botnet, right, you're a bot master, you have a virus. Let's say you'll actually find me on a forum because, you know, I'm a bot master. I have a whole bunch. You'll say, I want to buy a thousand bots. 500 bucks. Just run this program on your 500 bots. That's all I'm asking. And you'll pay me 500 bucks so I could make money by selling installs and loads off of my botnet really, really easily. I wasn't doing that as much.

B (17:49)

Why would other people want to do that? What were they gaining from it?

A (17:51)

Because they didn't have a way to.

B (17:52)

Get the access to those computers. So it's A little bit like, you own the keys to all these houses, let's say, and you could make money by allowing other people to get into these houses and do whatever they wanted once they were inside that house.

A (18:05)

And so this botnet scheme, like, where I was running it, my bots were the most valuable because they're in the United States. They're in a very, very high income area. You know, attackers that were looking for these bots are willing to pay high money for these bots. So I was like, okay, you know, it doesn't hurt me if I shell an extra thousand here or two thousand here.

B (18:25)

Did you make money from it?

A (18:26)

I did, yeah, I did.

B (18:28)

This is in seventh grade.

A (18:29)

Yeah.

B (18:30)

How much money did you make off of botnets?

A (18:32)

Yeah, probably around like 30,000.

B (18:34)

No way. As a seventh grader?

A (18:36)

Yeah, I was able to fund my whole computers, everything I wanted, all my. Like, I do. I do remember it was like, by the end of fifth grade, like, I was not asking my parents for stuff.

B (18:47)

Already by the end of fifth grade.

A (18:48)

Like, they knew things were coming in the mail.

B (18:51)

Like, and what do they think it was? Did they have conversations with you?

A (18:54)

Yeah, they had conversations. And honestly, I would educate them and be like, yo, I'm really smart. I figured this out in this game. I can sell this to people. I can do this. And, you know, my dad instantly knew, like, I'm worried you're gonna get in trouble. I'm worried you're gonna get in trouble. So I wouldn't really tell him anything. You know, my mom, I would say, like, hey, I got this going on. This, I'm doing that. She'd be like, okay, maybe you're working for something. But then she instantly, like, came aware, like, okay, you are definitely going to get in trouble. I'm going to try to help you as much as I can and position you to the legitimate cyber security field.

B (19:24)

Right.

A (19:24)

So she actually, like, when I was, like, 13, took me to these conventions and was making me shake hands with these owners, be like, oh, my son's a hacker. He actually can do all this. And I got several deals. I mean, I had. Even before my black hat career and everything, I had several white hat contracts. I mean, I worked consulting at 14, 15 years old. Still no way for companies helping.

B (19:47)

Did you. Did the kids at school know that you were doing this?

A (19:49)

Yeah, everybody knew. Everybody knew.

B (19:51)

What do you think they thought of you? What was your. What was the image you had at school at the time?

A (19:55)

Don't mess with me. Really?

B (19:58)

People were sort of scared.

A (19:59)

I mean, I would. I would mess up anything you had online if you came after me.

B (20:03)

Were you a nice kid?

A (20:04)

I tried to be. I mean, I got bullied a couple of times, and that just kind of what set me off, to be honest.

B (20:09)

Okay, so tell me about the bullying.

A (20:10)

Just, like, you know, kids picking on kids.

B (20:13)

Why would they pick on you?

A (20:14)

Easy target. I remember there was one year I transferred schools because my parents were divorced, right. So I was going back and forth. So I transferred out of my school that I, like, grew up with, with, like, all my friends were, like. It was called Juanita High. So I did one year there, and that was, like, the new kid could never break through. And, like, for me, like, I was just, like. I felt like I had all this knowledge and everything that I wanted to prove to people, like, right, yo, I know all this. Befriend me, and it didn't work.

B (20:43)

Like, you think you're smart, but you haven't seen what I can do.

A (20:45)

Exactly.

B (20:46)

Show you why you should be friends with me. Yeah.

A (20:48)

Yep. So what ended up happening is that a kid ended up threatening me for money. He saw that I had, like, 60 bucks. He asked me for money. I didn't give it to him, so he forced me to show him my wallet. And, like, as a kid, like, it just kind of, like, rattled me in a weird way. And so I went home and I caused mayhem on this kid. That was my first. I don't. I don't want to admit this because it's not something cool. It's. It's not. It's not something that should not be done, but it was my first swatting that I did on somebody.

B (21:19)

Swatting. Okay. Explain to people what swatting is.

A (21:22)

So you call. You call in a 9.1service at this time. It was really, really easy for me to do it because I knew people that were already doing it. And the only way that I had to do it was typing on a chat room. So on aol, you could add a. It's like a deaf hearing service for, like, deaf people. Like, how bad on me to take advantage of something like that? It's, like, terrible, but whole bunch of people were doing this. It was a really, really bad problem. But you could contact this deaf operator and basically relay a 911 message to them. So basically, just by doing this, you could have cops storm in somebody's house?

B (21:58)

Swatting? Basically, yeah. It's calling cops on your phone.

A (22:00)

Swatting is a face, is a false. Is a false call.

B (22:05)

You know what happened to me recently?

A (22:07)

Really?

B (22:07)

Yeah. Where we were. It was with my husband at home and three, two or three police cars, LAPD showed up and we had been swatted, but it was horrible. It was. There did know that there had been reports, anonymous reports, that we were harming our son. Our son was at school. And they ended up actually two cops. Two police cops stayed with us, and the other police cop went to my son's school to interrogate.

A (22:37)

Terrible.

B (22:38)

It was horrible. And it was somebody. I don't know who or why, but yeah.

A (22:41)

Did they say if it was a call in or. Like.

B (22:43)

They said it was anonymous. We know kind of where he came from. Not the person, but where. But yeah, it was. It was. So I. I haven't been a victim of this. It is horrible.

A (22:52)

Yeah.

B (22:53)

And you were doing that and you did this to this kid?

A (22:55)

I was also a victim. I was a victim three times. I was. Three times I was swatted.

B (23:00)

Was it because you had done it to them? Was it a payback?

A (23:02)

Those. No, those was like people were after me type of thing. Like I just had name in the community. Go hack Armon. Go, you know, go. Go harass him. Go create whatever trouble you can.

B (23:12)

Wow, it sounds like a very unpleasant. It's not nice to live.

A (23:17)

It's not nice.

B (23:19)

Okay, so you're. You did this to this kid and then. So you. Now you are a bot master and you.

A (23:23)

I am a bot master. So the cool thing about being a bot master back then and still today, I mean, I'm not. I'm not a bot master anymore. I'm gonna say that I do ethical hacking. Right. This was my previous life. As much as I like to blow and make. Make it seem like this stuff was cool, it's really not. It's actually really bad. And I don't want to encourage people to do it.

B (23:42)

No, definitely not.

A (23:42)

But when I was this bot master, if we were playing on a game, any game, or let's say you were at home, I didn't want you to have Internet. All I needed to do was have your IP address and I could take your Internet away for as long as I wanted. And how do I do that? With your IP address, I can assign all my bots to basically send a hello message. They call it a ping, and it sends it over and over again. So think of like a doorway, right, where only so many people can fit in. I flood the doorway, and your Internet just goes off.

B (24:16)

And why were you doing that? What for?

A (24:17)

Control.

B (24:18)

And you would do this to lots of different people?

A (24:21)

If I didn't want to turn in homework, take down the website.

B (24:25)

Oh, the whole school.

A (24:26)

If I didn't like a player on the other team, goodbye. Like, it's a lot of power, right? Because, I mean, at the end of the day, it's somebody's Internet connection that you're playing with, right?

B (24:36)

And so you were doing this a lot.

A (24:38)

I was. And so I loved doing that. And because having that power, I wanted to grow my botnet as big as possible and having that power to take down any website as powerful as I wanted, like, I thrived off of that power and that kept me going.

B (24:50)

It was like playing online. God. But in this case, the devil.

A (24:54)

Actually, it was a. It was a video game leaderboard of real life, Right. You know, shit.

B (25:00)

Yeah.

A (25:01)

And everything you collect is real shit.

B (25:04)

I'm very happy I didn't grow up with you, dude. Happy. We didn't go to the same school.

A (25:12)

But at the end of the day, it was like, as crazy as it sounds, I could have been a really, really bad person.

B (25:17)

I know you're not now.

A (25:19)

I'm not. Like, but even back then, like, even the bad stuff that I did, I don't think, like, I didn't even push it to the extent that if I wanted to, like, I could have, like, I still had a line, right? Like, I'll give you like a really personal one. So I'm watching people, right, on. On the network, like, who goes home, who does what? Of course, it's just fun, you know, people in your class, what secrets, they hive, who they hook up with, right? And you know, I noticed this one girl's on Omegle. You ever heard of Omegle?

B (25:48)

No.

A (25:49)

It's a website where you get to chat with strangers. So like, you like randomly get to shuffle, like through random people, right? And she's talking with the guy and she's like joking with him and she's like, oh, do you want to see my pussy? Hahaha. And I'm like, oh my God, she's gonna show her pussy. Like, what the hell, right? And so I'm, I'm like freaking out. And then she pulls out her cat and like, starts petting her cat. I'm like, oh, her pussy. I knew it. I'm like, how dare me? Silly me. I shouldn't even think about that.

B (26:20)

But you were actually single.

A (26:21)

I was seeing it, right? And you know, of course, like, I'm playing an online game, you know, I have it on one screen, I'm doing another thing. I'm add. I do a million things at once. Right? So, like, I want everything going at once. So playing my game, I go check back. She's showing her pussy. Oh, my God. What is going on? Right? I don't run and tell anybody at school. I don't take screenshots. I don't screen record. I don't blackmail her. I let it be like I took in so much stuff and just didn't tell a single soul, right?

B (26:54)

So it could have been much worse.

A (26:55)

So much.

B (26:56)

At what point when were you caught? At what point did people realize what you were doing? And this is just the beginning. This is like the beginning of something that gets deeper. We'll get there. But what point? That first time, the first time you ever caught, what was that? Like? That was at school.

A (27:12)

It was at school. It was at school they learned that I was running a Counter Strike server on the school network. So being a confident little kid, what's a Counter Strike? So Counter Strike is a game, okay? Counter Strike, it's a first person shooter game. I was really fond of it as a kid and of course I want to play it at school with my friends. So on the shared drive, I put in Counter Strike. But I don't only just put in Counter Strike. I launched the multiplayer server on the school's network. Stupidest thing to do as a kid, like smack me upside the head. But funniest, like maybe funnest. Three months in class, everybody playing Counter Strike, everybody knowing I was running the server, like just having a whole bunch of fun. And then eventually one day it went down and I was panicking. I was wondering why. I go and look back, I can't log in. I'm panicking. Come to find out, nobody can log in. Something went down when I had started that it affected something critically later down the road. I don't know if it was another hacker that maybe found it out that got in through that, but something critically went wrong. And so at that point, everybody was locked out of the computers. And so I got called down the office. People snitched on me. They were like, armand's been running this. It was really, really interesting because I remember that day in class where nobody could log in. And for some reason, everybody just looked at me. Everybody just looked at me. And the teacher saying there, if you know who did it, come forward and say something. And I'm looking at, nobody's saying nothing. And everybody's just looking at me.

B (28:49)

It's so obvious.

A (28:50)

It's so like, I. I don't think anybody didn't know at that point, but nobody wanted to say anything. Thankfully. Eventually what happened is the principal walked in, said, arman, come with us. Took me to the principal's office and another one of the kids that I was letting him moderate the server and run it. Pretty much like I gave him moderator access to the counter strike server so he could kick people, ban people if we didn't want them. Whatever. I hear him as I'm in the principal's office on the other side of the wall saying, it's all Armand. He installed it. No, it's all him. So I'm sitting there like this, waiting for the principal to come back around and talk to me. Eventually my mom shows up. Bellevue Police department shows up.

B (29:36)

Whoa. They called the police.

A (29:37)

They called the police and out the gate. I was like, it's really, really funny. I don't know why in my heart, but I put a back door to the fucking server.

B (29:50)

What is it?

A (29:51)

I had another backdoor that could access the server. Like just in case. Who knows? You get shut down in my mind when I had it, I put it in there in case they found out my original access. Not if a catastrophic event happened or something.

B (30:09)

Like this one?

A (30:09)

Yeah, like this one. So what ended up happening is that police department came in. I'm like, hey, I'm sorry I did this. This is what happened. I don't know if they agreed with my parents or whatnot, but they got me as far as to putting me in handcuffs, putting me in the back.

B (30:23)

Of the cop car for running a game through their servers. Yeah, that's a little bit extreme. No.

A (30:28)

Well, you have to realize now everybody that has a job there can't use their computer. So my fun and games is caused a lot more than just fun.

B (30:39)

So there was a problem with the game that basically locked everybody's computers. It was because of your software that.

A (30:47)

It was whether if the game auto updated somehow, if it ran some type of cron job, or if another hacker. I never really figured out what the core issue was, but nobody could log in. It shut down the actual active directory of what was going on and it crashed it.

B (31:02)

Right. And so for a whole day, full description on the school.

A (31:06)

Yeah. They put me in the back of the cop car. And then I'm like. I'm like bawling cause I'm a kid, you know, I'm like, you know, I'm so sorry. Like, let me fix it. Eventually the cop lets me out, they put me in the office. They're like, do you know any way to fix this? So now it became like, this is the only kid that might know how to fix this. And so it was probably like another four hours. I got access to another computer. I got in there, we were, managed to restore it up to a backup D. It took. I remember it was because when it happened, they emergency suspended me is what they call it. It's not an expulsion, it's emergency suspension. So that means you can't go to class, you can't do anything.

B (31:49)

And you didn't for how long could it.

A (31:51)

Right. All that I could do is I could go to the office and use the computer and try to help fix it.

B (31:55)

Try to help fix it?

A (31:56)

Yes. So at that time, I'm working with the head of the IT there. I'm telling them what I did, what I found this like what account I have. And then my back door, we get through my back door, restore the server and then I'm like antsy. I'm like, I don't know if I should be excited, happy, because I feel like I'm actually helping something at this point. I'm doing something good. It's a weird turn of events providing a service to these people. Right. And eventually it does restore. It takes about 24 hours. And they allow me back into school.

B (32:28)

Oh, that's nice of them.

A (32:30)

It took them a whole week, but I got back into class. Nothing was like permanently broken and everything. And then we did fix the vulnerability. I did do a write up with them.

B (32:42)

You helped them fix.

A (32:43)

I did help and I helped fix their vulnerability and that wasn't a problem anymore.

B (32:46)

But is that. But this was before you were a bot master or this is during being bot. They never found out about you being a bot master or did they?

A (32:55)

No. So that bot master, they only found out.

B (32:58)

It's such a weird name, right?

A (32:59)

So I escaped middle school with that. Like that was my scariest thing. But I did get the computer ban. So they still said even though you did all that you can't use computers. You can't use computers. So high school, I get reinstated, right? So I'm like, okay, now I can maybe have a little bit more fun. You know, I'm more smart. You know, I have more exploits. You know, I already have a big bot list. Everything's way easier for me in high school. And for me I'm like, day one, I'm going to take this thing down. Like I've been. They, they should have let me, they should have let me use the computer, gave me a job done something Like I, I could easily do this. Like, why would I not So I mean, coming up, computer class, first day I get in, I mean, I start spreading. I spread fast. But come to find out.

B (33:49)

Spreading. Yeah, you spreading by. You're gaining access to all these computers. What you're doing again?

A (33:55)

Yep. So I'm connecting to one computer, I'm dropping shared drives, and. And I. And I do get a little bit more and more malicious. At high school, I start sending from a teacher's email to another teacher's email saying how great of a student I am.

B (34:13)

No way.

A (34:14)

I just start really just having fun with it. Just like, nobody can stop me. Because you got to remember, at this time, I'm in high school. I'm already hacked Microsoft. I've already hacked all these other top Fortune companies. What's my school network?

B (34:30)

We need to get to Microsoft. What the heck? How did you go over this?

A (34:33)

Sorry, sorry, sorry.

B (34:34)

That's okay. You hacked Microsoft. Tell me about this. And this all started with the Xbox. You're obsessed with the Xbox.

A (34:41)

Yep.

B (34:42)

Go back to that.

A (34:43)

It does.

B (34:43)

Because this was the first story you ever told me about you.

A (34:47)

It was.

B (34:47)

And it was what? My eyes basically got off my head. I was like, what? And then you told me that story, and that's when I realized you were my hacker.

A (34:57)

Yep.

B (34:58)

And I was your journalist.

A (34:59)

Yep. Yep. It was a perfect bridge crossing. God put us at that right timing and set us up. So it was awesome.

B (35:06)

Okay, so tell me that's true.

A (35:07)

So, I mean, I told you I was obsessed with video games, right? And it goes back to that original Xbox. But one game that stuck with me the most was Halo. You've heard of Halo?

B (35:16)

Yes, I've heard of.

A (35:17)

Everybody's never played it, but it's amazing game, right? It's took me so much as a kid. Like, it was. It made me mature as a kid. I'd say that, like, you know, it was a mature game. You know, I felt like I had to be a mature person to play it, you know?

B (35:30)

What type of a game is it?

A (35:31)

It's a shooter.

B (35:31)

Oh, it's a shooter.

A (35:32)

It's a shooter. It's an alien shooter. You know, aliens come to Earth.

B (35:36)

Don't tell people. I didn't know what that was. I won't.

A (35:39)

Okay, but. So I was obsessed with Halo. I was really, really obsessed with Halo. And playing a lot of Halo, I happened to come across one of the best Halo hackers ever. And that is what set me to wanting to focus all my energy and attention on hacking Halo. I already understand a little bit of hacking computers. Understand a little Bit about that. How can I put all my energy into hacking Halo?

B (36:03)

So hacking this game like people do, so that you can get to the end or so that you can get some sort of. Is that the idea?

A (36:10)

Yeah.

B (36:10)

Why do people hack games?

A (36:11)

Right. Like, a lot of it is for gaining some type of advantage. Right. So people can cheat at a game. They can have abilities that other people can't do. I really fell in love with not cheating, but what's called modding, which is where you take a game and you make an addition to it, where it's like. It's like adding artwork to something where somebody else can enjoy and play through it that wasn't intentionally there that somebody else had to create. So I really, really fell in love with that. And so I got matched up with a character in that game named Anthony. And Anthony was the smartest hacker that I knew at that time, and he was the only person I wanted to impress.

B (36:46)

Is Anthony his ruling?

A (36:47)

Anthony's real name. Anthony Clark.

B (36:49)

Okay. What's he doing now? Is it okay to say his name?

A (36:52)

Yeah. Sadly, he passed away.

B (36:53)

Oh, no.

A (36:54)

Yeah.

B (36:54)

I'm sorry. Okay, we'll get. Was it something that you guys were doing together?

A (36:58)

No, it was. So. We shared the same birthday, actually. So on our birthday, I think he just mixed too much alcohol and pain pills.

B (37:09)

Oh, no.

A (37:10)

And, yeah, that was the concoction.

B (37:12)

And he was your friend at the time?

A (37:13)

He was. To me, he was like a mentor. He was like somebody I looked up to greatly. Of course, during his passing, I wasn't in contact with him because we had all the legal issues that had happened.

B (37:25)

Yeah, because you got in trouble with him.

A (37:26)

Right, right. Anthony ends up one of the. I'm gonna say, like, the godfathers of this Xbox Underground hacking group. You know, it was like him and Dave were these two best friends that were extremely smart computer hackers.

B (37:39)

Okay. So you might meet Anthony through Halo playing Halo, and you realize this guy's really smart.

A (37:45)

I realize this guy can do things to games that I've never seen before. Right. Like, he picks me up in this car in the game, and usually where you would drive around, he flies it around. And as me as a kid, I'm freaking out. I'm screaming on the mic, and he loves hearing me freak out. It's just funny for him, you know? And so eventually he adds me, and then I can't get into Anthony's game. Like, I try to join Anthony's game, like, every day. It's full. Cause everybody.

B (38:10)

Everybody wants to play with Anthony.

A (38:11)

Everybody wants to play with Anthony. Right. Then I search up online, I find forums. Everybody's talking about Anthony. Everybody's, you know, Anthony knows this. Anthony knows that. To me, I'm like, man, how cool is it to be a person where you know something that other people can't figure out and people are just obsessed about it? Like, to me, that's what like, thrived me, like, I wanted that more than anything.

B (38:29)

So you wanted to build a car that would fly as well?

A (38:31)

100%. 100%. So Anthony was kind enough and he released a tool to the community that allowed people to do that.

B (38:40)

So this is how you make those mods?

A (38:42)

Yeah. So I start learning how to mod the games, I start learning how to mod Xboxes, you know, following this rabbit hole. But then what happens is Halo 2 comes out. That doesn't work anymore. Nobody else can figure it out. Who's the only person left that's doing it? Anthony. It's like watching history repeat itself. And like, man, there really is something special here. Like, I want to get ahead of this wave and I'm going to do anything in my ability to try to gain this person's trust, to show them that I'm worthy of that. So that like kind of chase as a kid was like, I'm not just going to focus on Xbox hacking. I'm going to show Anthony I can do any type of hacking. You know, it's. It's a community at that point.

B (39:25)

And what were you doing hacking? What was it that you were impressing him with? Like, what kind of hacking was impressing him?

A (39:31)

Like, a lot of it was like me figuring out like keyloggers and like, you know, I would figure out other ways how to breach Microsoft that wasn't through video gaming. Right. These guys, I'd consider them developer hackers. They're so good at coding, they're so good at, you know, realizing this stuff. But where me as a kid, where I was so good at, I was so good at finding people's mistakes. I was so good at finding somebody's flaw where they would click one link and I would have the same access. You know, I didn't have to do the million lines of code review to figure out the same exploit. I just had to trick one person into doing it to have the same outcome, isn't it?

B (40:08)

That's what they say about hacking, right? That it's. I can't remember what the fly. I'm sure you know what it is, but you only have to find what's.

A (40:17)

That they say with the defense Versus attack, where, like, you know, attacking. You define the one way versus defending. You need to defend a million different things that can happen. And it's so true. And I thrive on that attack hacker aspect, you know, I love that.

B (40:32)

So you were hacking away, as you said, and showing Anthony how good you were. Was he impressed? Was he like, wow, this kid's really good?

A (40:39)

Yeah, it took time. It took a lot of time. And, you know, and it wasn't just like a single race with me, you know, I had other hackers trying to prove themselves too, to him, you know, and so a big character in the story, you know, if you research it, his name is Austin Alcala.

B (40:56)

And what is this story called?

A (40:58)

Sorry? This story is called the Xbox Underground.

B (41:00)

The Xbox Underground? Yeah. That's great. Okay, so go ahead.

A (41:03)

So one of the characters in it, Austin Alcala, were very similar, aged, and, you know, we. We became friends off of our obsession of Anthony pretty much was how we, you know, we would always chat and try to do stuff, and all of.

B (41:21)

These are online friends. You never would meet and see them face to face.

A (41:24)

Okay, Never would meet face to face. I mean, we'd sit on Skype calls and throw on video chat, you know, to show our faces and whatnot. It's not like we were strangers to each other. You know, we'd actually tell all our personal lives with each other. You know, it was full on.

B (41:37)

You were friends. Friends, even though you weren't face to face. Okay, so then you guys, you met Austin. You guys were trying to impress Anthony, and then what happened?

A (41:44)

Yeah, trying to impress Anthony. Eventually what happens is that Anthony gives us the time of day, you know, more Austin than me, so I get more jealous, you know, and I'm like. I'm thinking of, like extremes, right? At this point, you know, we're past Halo 3, whatever. We've already owned those games. We already made a bunch of money, every single one of us, more than others.

B (42:03)

And how are you making money at this point? By selling those tricks to other people?

A (42:07)

Yeah, it got pretty lucrative, like, to the point where I don't know if you know the game Call of Duty. Yeah, you heard of that? Yeah. So I could have somebody join my Call of Duty game and I could give them all the stuff they would lock in the game if they would just pay a certain amount to me. Like, I could sit there and click on their name and give them everything, and it would have a menu and say thank you and everything.

B (42:27)

How much money were you making from this?

A (42:29)

On the peak? Yeah, more than $5,000 a day.

B (42:33)

No fucking way.

A (42:34)

Yeah.

B (42:35)

Holy shit. And you were in high school at this point or middle school?

A (42:38)

I was in high school.

B (42:39)

Holy shit. What were you spending? I always like, what are you spending your money on at this point, with that much money?

A (42:44)

For me, I spent a lot of money on hacks.

B (42:47)

Just like buying.

A (42:48)

I would rebuy if there was another hacker that had an exploit, if there was another hacker that had some type of information, that is first place. I'm spending my money like I'm not even thinking about stuff for me at home, right. I don't even want to worry about my parents worrying. I got a big screen TV or whatever. All I'm worrying about can I get the next best acts. And that is kind of actually what led me down to the path of fraud.

B (43:09)

Okay.

A (43:09)

Unintentionally, you know, I was buying a lot of stuff because I had all this excess of money. And one of the courses that I bought, I ended up buying a course from somebody. It looked really, really well, it broke down. It said advanced penetration testing. It said every single thing that I was like, really, really intrigued about. I was like, this is gonna make me the next best hacker. I need to work with this guy. Take my $2,000, let's do it. And it was supposed to be a class of five people, and it was supposed to roll on for a month, about like a couple of hours a day. Come to find out, I was the only one that paid. So with that being said, the guy took a big, big liking to me and we became pretty, pretty personal. Well, this guy was actually probably my first real black hack hacker that I became close with.

B (43:59)

And explain the difference. A black hack hacker is somebody who hacks to steal or for malicious. Malicious intent. And a white hack, white hat hacker is somebody who hacks for good or who tries to find the, the vulnerabilities.

A (44:16)

To fix them, you know, to bring them to attention for good. Not doing anything illegal. Right. At the end of the day, black is illegal and white is legal. And you have gray, of course, which is. I found myself in a lot of that coming up.

B (44:30)

So you wouldn't say that Anthony was a black hacker? No, I wasn't trying to exploit the games or the vulnerabilities of the games to become a better gamer or whatever, to get advantage.

A (44:40)

And, you know, some people would say that's definitely gray area, you know, because you're having effect on games that you're not supposed to. You're breaching stuff you're not really supposed to but, you know, he never. He wasn't focused on hacking, like the core people behind it. He was actually focused on the code of the game and like, where something went wrong on the code. Like, it's a different methodology of attacking, you know?

B (45:03)

But the guy that you met, he was. What kind of attacking?

A (45:06)

He was black hat hacker.

B (45:07)

Like, what?

A (45:08)

Fraud.

B (45:09)

That's what he was attempting. He was doing.

A (45:12)

He was a professional fraudster. Fraudster.

B (45:15)

When you want your spring break to feel like. And your kid's pool day to feel.

A (45:21)

Like.

B (45:23)

And your hotel bed to feel like. Ooh. And room service to feel like. Because at Hilton hospitality feels like.

A (45:33)

Your cabana's ready. Would you like fresh towels?

B (45:36)

It matters where you stay. Book now@hilton.com Hilton for this day.

A (45:45)

And I. I didn't even understand this really existed at that time. And so I'm just a kid kind of inquiring at him like, yo, I want to more learn more hacking techniques about this and that. He's like, yeah, you want to do that so you can get more credit cards, right? No, like, what? What do you mean? Why would I want credit cards? Like, you don't know. I don't know what you don't know. We can make credit cards. What do you mean? We can make credit cards? And this is before anything that any tutorial online or anything. This guy understood the magnetic stripe system, understood how to defraud banks. So what he would do, he would even show me his schemes. He was so crazy, it still baffles me to this day. He would sign up for a bank under a fake profile and everything as a job, employee, get accepted, walk into there, transfer everything on the USB and leave and never show up again.

B (46:37)

No way.

A (46:38)

This guy was devilish. This guy was good. And he was causing damage in Germany, like, major damage.

B (46:46)

He was a German guy?

A (46:46)

Yeah.

B (46:47)

So if he was able to make so much money through his fraud, why was he also doing these classes? Why was he making money for people?

A (46:52)

I think he wanted just to connect with people and see what was out there because the guy never needed money. The guy ended up sending me money later down the line, like it was a friendship that was established.

B (47:04)

Did he get in trouble?

A (47:05)

Eventually he went ghost, and I suspect.

B (47:06)

That was why he went to prison. You think?

A (47:09)

Yeah.

B (47:09)

But this was after Xbox or before.

A (47:11)

This was during.

B (47:12)

Okay, so continue telling me about the Xbox. So you're friends with these guys and they're you guys and Halo 1 and 2 and 3?

A (47:19)

Yep. So Austin is really, really close with Anthony. Kind of gets a Better relationship, you know? And you know me, I'm like, I gotta one up this. I want to be the next crown in the game. I want to be the next jewel that nobody can take out, you know, because at this point it's probably six people that just know each other, right. Because of the level of what we're dealing with and the extent of what's going on. So I'm like, how can I be number one ahead of everybody? And this comes down to me breaking into Microsoft.

B (47:52)

Why did you need to break into Microsoft?

A (47:54)

I wanted to break into Microsoft to get the physical prototype so I could reverse engineer the prototype physically and be able to do any Xbox cheat for the next generation of cheats.

B (48:05)

Shit. Okay, so wait, so you guys knew, you all knew there was a new Xbox coming out?

A (48:10)

Yeah.

B (48:11)

And obviously you can't hack it unless you have the actual physical thing.

A (48:14)

Yeah. So I'll give you even more. So we're at this point, we're looking into there's a service. I feel like I can speak about this because I know it was such a big deal. They took it all down and it's not a thing anymore. But at the time it was called Gamer Development Portal gdp. Okay. And if you were a company that was making video games, right. Microsoft would give you a login to this so you could update all your prototype software so you could help make your games. It was like a really, really controlled system for these guys to kind of submit things and go on. Well, we ended up attacking that and hacking that system. When they had that system, they had all. I mean, I, they, they were, they were bragging to me about it, right? Because it's like they're going against me of trying to get all this before me. Pretty much.

B (49:07)

Because they knew that you had plans of going to get the physical Xbox. Yes. And they were like, why do you need the physical thing?

A (49:13)

We got into this, we got this portal, right? We got through the portal. Well, I'm like, well, that's not good enough because we need the actual hardware. And so then we, then we kind of come to agreements. Well, if you're going to get the hardware, I'll give you this. And if you give me this, I'll give you that. So we kind of, you know, kind of become on the same team again, Right. Like we kind of start aligning, but then what happens is that one of the kids on the group figures out within that software how to make the next generation of Xbox at home.

B (49:44)

Oh my God.

A (49:44)

Like, make the Xbox.

B (49:46)

Wow. Even before The Xbox release, which can mean millions and millions of dollars of.

A (49:50)

Lost for Microsoft, because if anybody can just make an Xbox, then, you know, it's toast. Right? So that's what we were able to do. We were able to counterfeit the Xbox successfully before it was out. I mean, I didn't do that. Somebody else on the team did and then was showing it. And then at some point on that, an Xbox gets listed on ebay when.

B (50:08)

It'S one of these fake ones. I mean, one of these counterfeit ones.

A (50:11)

Yep.

B (50:12)

And this was before you actually went into Microsoft.

A (50:15)

This is. This is like, right after.

B (50:17)

But okay.

A (50:17)

This is like.

B (50:18)

Backtrack.

A (50:18)

Sorry.

B (50:19)

Backtrack.

A (50:19)

Sorry. Crazy. I know. Backtrack to which part?

B (50:23)

To the part where you decided you were gonna go into Microsoft.

A (50:26)

Yeah, that was a. I'm gonna be honest with you. Something that I've never said on camera. I've broken to Microsoft more than 20 times. No.

B (50:38)

Is it okay for you to say this?

A (50:39)

I don't know. I mean, this has been over a decade, right, that I'm hoping everything, you know.

B (50:45)

And you got in trouble for six months, right?

A (50:48)

I got in trouble. Right. But I had successfully done this more than 20 times. I was comfortable with this because I've already been in there and done this.

B (50:57)

Okay, so tell me how you did it and how did the idea come about?

A (51:00)

So this is. Shame on me at home, you know, my mom is really, really close with somebody. She's dating another man that works at Microsoft, and he has a Microsoft badge. So in my mind, I'm gonna reverse engineer this badge. I'm gonna figure out how this badge works. So I use his credentials, his badge, while he's not looking at night, to figure out how does it work? How does it read? How can I actually replicate this and go in there and get in there. And so I did that successfully. I figured it out. And I will never forget the first day when I tried it and tested it. I was so nervous. I went to the door and I waved it, and it didn't make a sound. And I was like, I failed. I just did all this work. I just exposed myself. I came all the way here. I can't believe this. I flipped it around, I pressed it, and it beeped.

B (51:54)

I know. It works. Oh, my God.

A (51:56)

In that moment when that door unlocked, it was like my dreams had just came true, right? This place that I had been dreaming about even working, I wanted to work there, right? Like, I had dreams of being a game developer even. Not even just a crazy computer hacker. Right. Like, I really wanted to live in this place, per se, and I had access and I got in and then you came in. And once I got in, I browsed around, you know, I didn't take anything at first.

B (52:23)

Was it at night or during the day? What was.

A (52:25)

There were several attempts, so I did some during the day to see how well I could do it. I did it successfully. I did it at night successfully. And then when I was so comfortable, I was like, okay, I'm gonna execute and take something.

B (52:36)

And what was it that you were trying to get to the test?

A (52:37)

Yeah, I took three prototypes, the brand.

B (52:40)

New ones that they were working on, that they had.

A (52:42)

They were not out. They were not even announced yet. People didn't know the name of it. Like this is.

B (52:47)

And that's what. It's so crazy because even if you can get into the physical building, you'd assume that if they're working on something that hasn't come out yet, that is sort of behind locked doors. Right. How did you get into the space where those prototypes were?

A (53:00)

Yeah, so we've already. One, we've breached this company, so we already know where everything's stored. So at this point, I'm asking Austin to give me a PDF file of what is the fire escape of this building, because I'm gonna be able to know where to enter and come in from. So I'm creating these blueprints at home, you know, and I, And I actually, before I executed on the idea, it was just a fantasy. I just drew it out in my head. I told myself I wouldn't do. It was just a fun idea, you know, it was always something there. But then one day I got into an argument with my stepfather and that argument triggered me. It triggered me to do it.

B (53:37)

And what were you trying to. Why did you want these prototypes?

A (53:40)

I wanted them to have the upper hand on your over my friends. That was the real reason. Right. Because if I had that, that shows that I'm the biggest and baddest hacker out of everybody, right? Like, I blow everybody out the water because I had the confidential information of that, that I can reproduce it. I can also use that code to help me develop on the Xbox when it releases for my hack to come out.

B (54:02)

But didn't they already have the ability of making a counterfeit Xbox at the time?

A (54:08)

So it was excessive. At this point, it's me proving the point, right? Because it's showing like, okay, well, if you're not going to give me the access, I'm going to do it the Hard way in the way that I know I can do it. And either you're going to join me or not.

B (54:21)

So you go in and there's these three prototypes and explain to me what they look like. Well, how big are they? What are they?

A (54:27)

So they were in a stash. I mean, it wasn't easily found. I actually had a lock pick, a door to get into the stash. So I mean, I'd been training for this. I mean, when I say training for this, I mean I thought about every single step that could go wrong.

B (54:40)

How old were you?

A (54:41)

18.

B (54:42)

Okay, so then you go in and.

A (54:44)

I go in dressed up fully as Microsoft gear. I wore full Microsoft attire, was ready, and just went in with a backpack.

B (54:52)

Microsoft attire meaning like you look like you were a worker. Like an IT worker?

A (54:56)

Exactly like I look like I belonged there. I remember that day. I was greeted by two workers and talked. Talked through it. Yeah.

B (55:03)

Said, hi, what's up?

A (55:05)

How's it going? How's your night?

B (55:07)

So that time you went at night?

A (55:09)

Yeah.

B (55:09)

Okay, and then what? And then you got it. You had to open up a door that was locked.

A (55:13)

I did pick locks. And then they were in these, we call them coffins. They're like these cardboard boxes pretty much. Like, only if you knew like that was in it, like you'd have to know type of thing. So I think like that was the biggest thing for them. When they found out, like after the fact, they were like, all right, guys, we have something bigger here. Because not only they knew to come here, they had all this time, like, I'm pretty sure they were certain that it was some type of like external government or, you know, something. Something crazy more than just some kids.

B (55:44)

Some real sophisticated shit. Instead of an 18 year old with a fake badge.

A (55:49)

Yeah, yeah.

B (55:50)

Okay. You go in, you put these. And where do you put them?

A (55:53)

Do you have put them in a backpack? I store them in a backpack and I leave through the stairwell and I exit successfully.

B (55:59)

And you started jumping up and down at this point. Are you excited?

A (56:02)

I'm excited. You know, I go back, I don't even know if I'm going to give them to anybody. Like, it's just all me right now. I'm starting to reverse engineer it. I'm getting it to run games now. Now I'm running games that I've never played before. You know, it's a rush, right? Because now at this point, I'm inviting my friends over. Yo, check out what I have now. My real life friends are like, Armand, I don't Know what to tell you, man, watching you from a kid, elementary school doing this and now to this, like, what the fuck is happening? What is happening? You know, it's.

B (56:31)

And did you tell Anthony and Anthony and Astana that you were doing. Were they impressed? Were they?

A (56:35)

So I offered Anthony. He declined.

B (56:38)

Actually, he was smart because he said no. Because you stole it.

A (56:42)

He knew I stole it. But Dave said yes. And I think that's what started the big disagreement between those two.

B (56:49)

So Dave was one of the other hackers.

A (56:51)

Dave was Anthony's best friend. Amazing smart hacker, still hacks today. Like doing good. Doing good today.

B (57:01)

And you sold him. Did you sell it to him or did you give it to him?

A (57:04)

It was an agreement. I think I might have asked for some cash. But definitely, like at this point, like, if we're talking to each other, we're always asking for each other for money because it's like, I don't know when, like we were throwing money around so often, it wasn't uncommon for us to say, like, send me 2,000. My limits hit like we always had when so much money was in excess like that, especially over the game cheats, you know, it didn't matter. So, yeah, I think, I think I did ask for some cash. You know, just be like, yo, just give me some cash and. And I'll give you this. But most importantly, I need that software.

B (57:38)

Oh, you wanted the software that they had. So you give the prototype the actual physical hardware and you can get the software. So now you have the complete circle.

A (57:48)

Right? There's nothing I don't have. Right. Like as a hacker, to needing what I needed to do to make a million dollars a year for the next five years I had.

B (57:58)

And just so people understand, this could cost one of the biggest corporations in the world, Microsoft, millions of dollars. Yes. It's a huge breach. It's a huge problem for them.

A (58:09)

I think it came out to. At the end of the day, it was more than $121 million of intellectual property that we had stolen.

B (58:14)

Wow. Yeah. Okay, that's crazy. Okay, so then at what point were you caught? Where does it all come crumbling down?

A (58:21)

This is the kicker, Honestly. I don't think you could say like naiveness. Naiveness? Is that a word?

B (58:28)

Naivete?

A (58:29)

Yeah. Everything goes so well. I apply for a job at Microsoft, I get accepted.

B (58:35)

This is how long after you actually apply?

A (58:37)

This is two months after.

B (58:40)

And then what?

A (58:41)

I'm working this job.

B (58:42)

And it's your dream job.

A (58:44)

It's my dream job. Right. I'm testing video Games. So I came in as a QA tester, is what they call it, quality assurance tester. All you do, you play the games, and if the game crashes or if it has a bug, you just report it. It's like the easiest job in the world. And they pay, like, minimum wage, so you don't make nothing, but it's something for people.

B (59:04)

And it's the way up, right?

A (59:05)

Yeah. And it's work that's gotta get done right at the end of the day. So, you know, for me, this was my dream. Like, I wanted this, loved it, got it. So I got on, which is really, really. I don't know if this is. Like, I question this today because of just how funny it was. Like, I don't know if Microsoft fully set me up, because it's a little too coincidental, because I get in and I get assigned a game. The game is called Watchdogs. The game is all about hacking. The game is.

B (59:41)

It's too good to be so crazy.

A (59:43)

The game is a character that has mainframe access to the city and can hack anybody around the city with his phone. He can change street lights, he can hack ATMs, he can do whatever he wants. And his ultimate goal at the end of the day is spreading his botnet. It's taking over the city.

B (60:03)

Oh, my God.

A (60:04)

Oh, my God. This game. This game resonates with me. And so, of course, I'm ecstatic. Like, I play through this game completely. Like, I. So the character in the game is named Aiden Pearce, and I related to this character like no other video game character before. Like, it felt like the game was made for me, or somebody saw a part of the game and it just, like, like, reached out to me. So I played through that game. It goes amazingly well. And then probably about one month in, I get escorted into a room and I see this big conference room, right? With a glass. It's like a fog glass door. Soon as they unravel of it, 18 people deep.

B (60:46)

18 suits.

A (60:46)

18.

B (60:47)

18 suits.

A (60:48)

Not even just suits. You got half suits, you got half people. Half. Like, half people. Yeah. I don't know how else to describe, like, half CAs, half regular, half investigator. And I know something's up.

B (61:01)

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A (61:31)

Because the first thing I see is a tape recorder on the table. I see a packet about this big. And at this point, my heart sank and I knew the gig was up. I didn't know what was there, but I knew everything finally had come crumbling down.

B (61:43)

What did they say?

A (61:44)

They said, do you know a person named AA Monkey? Do you know a person named Xenon? Do you know a person named. They knew everybody I was talking to.

B (61:54)

So all your hacker group, all my.

A (61:56)

Hacker friends, everybody, they had already knew. They connected everything else that had gone along with all those times to me as well. But what coming up, what I found out later in life was that it was one snitch in the group that actually told them everything.

B (62:12)

No way. And told them that you were actually. You had stolen a broke.

A (62:16)

You were working there till he called in and told them all. And so he gave a full on blanket. Who was this guy? Everything. He's actually the kid. If you look in the story, he's the one that like ran away and got like the worst time. It's like super.

B (62:32)

And why did he say? Probably because they were onto him and he needed some.

A (62:36)

No, it was actually out of pure jealousy. Out of pure, pure hate and jealousy.

B (62:41)

And then so they said, okay. And did you say. What did you say? When they were confronting.

A (62:45)

At that point, I knew the gig was up and I was like, you know what? I'm sorry I took your stuff. Yes.

B (62:51)

Did you confess to having taken the prototype?

A (62:53)

I confess.

B (62:53)

But did they know at the time?

A (62:55)

I mean, there's pictures of me, you know.

B (62:57)

Oh, they showed you photos.

A (62:58)

Show me photos of me. And then I'm looking at the photos, I'm wearing the same shoes. So it's like, who am I joking? You know, like, you got me, okay. You know, so it's like, whatever.

B (63:08)

And did you realize you were in deep trouble?

A (63:09)

I realized immediately my life was upside down that day. That day, my life was completely. No, I was in complete shock. It's like having everything in your life, like ripped from you at once. Pretty much.

B (63:22)

And what happened after that?

A (63:24)

So I get thrown out of the building, told never to come back. Don't know what's gonna happen. I'm panicking. They want the development stuff back, but I already shipped it to Austin and Dave, so I don't have it. I only have one. So Now I gotta go and convince them to try to ship it back to me. So at first, I try to play it off like, hey, guys, I figured out the hack. Send me your consoles. I can install the hack. You know, I try to pitch it anyway. Nah, not gonna do it. Nah, I'm working on this. Nah, man, that doesn't work. Okay. Boom. They need something. Okay, yeah, I can do it. Just ship me the console. Just ship me the console. I can do it. It. Nah, not gonna happen. Nah, just send it to me. Okay. They're not gonna budge. I have no choice. I have to come clean. I came clean.

B (64:14)

So you told them? Hey, they're. They're on to me. My guys.

A (64:18)

I got. I got entrapped at my job, right? They. They put me in a room.

B (64:22)

Tell them immediately. What were your thoughts? Why not tell them immediately?

A (64:25)

I didn't want them to get scared and not send the console.

B (64:27)

Oh, and you need that?

A (64:28)

I needed that console because.

B (64:30)

Did Microsoft tell you that if you got them the console back, you.

A (64:32)

I was never promised immunity.

B (64:36)

But you just thought that by getting.

A (64:37)

The money back, I knew it was the right thing to do. I knew that if I could get it back, that was gonna be less. I just knew that it doesn't matter. If I could get whatever was taken back to them, it'd be less.

B (64:50)

And so when you came clean to your friends, what did they say?

A (64:53)

Austin, thankfully, understanding. Austin was really cool. He felt bad for me.

B (64:58)

It wasn't your fault.

A (64:59)

It wasn't my fault. You know, and, you know, of course I was apologizing, and I admitted to trying to manipulate them to send it to me, you know?

B (65:08)

Right. Did they find out that Microsoft found out that there was some problems? Not because the prototypes went missing, but it was because that other Xbox, that counterfeit Xbox, had shown up for sale.

A (65:20)

Yes.

B (65:20)

Which wasn't even.

A (65:21)

That was like another big red flag. Easy. Connect the dots. Right? Because at the end of the day, when you talk about cybercrime and stuff like that, we're talking about connecting the dots. How easy do we make it connect the dots? This was just easy. Map you could draw this. This guy knows this guy. This guy's done this. This guy knows this guy.

B (65:37)

Right. So. But they also found out that the prototypes were missing, and they were trying to figure out who it was.

A (65:42)

Yeah. So what I understood is, after I did that, that the building went on lockdown, apparently for over a month to see if I would come back, and I never did, thankfully.

B (65:51)

Thank God. You only got your job. Like Two months after, like the weeks after.

A (65:55)

Could you imagine?

B (65:56)

Yeah. And okay, so then you came clean. And did you do time because of this?

A (66:01)

This was like a long, long, long, long case. This case lasted years. Yeah, lasted a long, long time. And originally it was picked up by the FBI. The FBI wanted it. They didn't see the means to pursue me because believe it or not, like, yeah, the crimes that I committed were computer trespass, right. But I actually, thank goodness, I didn't actually hack across the United States. I just hacked something in my backyard, which was actually beneficial for me, right? Because if I would have hacked something in California and done all this FBI, federal, Right. But because I did it all in my state, it was just a state case. So I was like, okay, a little bit more easier to digest. But the problem was that that over my head is what caused me, like, not knowing the answers of that. I thought my end of day was coming anytime soon. So I didn't know what to do. And as a kid, when you think all your hacking abilities are going to come to an end, you want to use it all at once. You want to hack everything you can because you might not have the chance again in the future. And so that for me took me by storm because as a kid, where I was only focused on hacking video games, right? And changing my ability in games. What can I do in the real world now?

B (67:24)

And at this point, you had already met the guy, the fraud master. I've already met the fraud master, the.

A (67:30)

Black hat Germany hacker that coached me through doing black hat hacking, how to make fraud money, everything.

B (67:37)

And so what was your first.

A (67:39)

It's a good question. I remember my first times. It's really crazy. There was a forum, Carter Planet, and funny enough, it was actually the FBI sting. But I loved that website. Like, it got me, you know what I mean? Like, I was an active user on it completely. But I could find people posting credit cards every day for free that were valid. And like, as a kid, like, that's like crazy information, you know, all you have to do is load a website. I don't have to pay anything. All I have to do is sit, refresh and wait for somebody to post something. And there was just hackers every day that would just post, you know, 10 credit cards, 20 credit cards. And usually what it would be is that they would post it to be like, hey, sample if you liked it, if it worked for you, contact me for sale for more. So it was kind of like their way of advertising, per se. But as a kid, I kind of just picked up on it. I was like, okay, could I order pizza? Can I order food?

B (68:40)

So you show you're using stolen credit cards to order food and pizza.

A (68:44)

Yeah, yeah. You know, it started really, really light. Like really, really light. You know, dominoes, you know, just small little things. Stuff that was easy. And then it just kind of grew. Right then it's like, okay, can I buy things on games? Oh, I can. Okay, can I gift other people things on games with this stuff? Okay, I can maybe. This is a way better way of lucrative hacking and making money. Cause it's so easy, so accessible. And I'm surrounded with a whole community now that will give me everything that I need to do it. So for me that was like probably like a two year wait. I decided I wasn't going to do any. We call it carding. Some call it swizz, swipe. There's so many different terms for it. It just goes on and on. But I started to think, I don't like just virtual carding. What does real life carding feel like?

B (69:44)

Like actually having a stolen credit card with you.

A (69:46)

Having a stolen credit card going in a store. What does that look like? What does that feel like? And that's where I started to go deeper down into. And that rabbit hole was not a good one. That one at the end of it led me addicted to fraud. I was addicted to fraud.

B (70:04)

Really.

A (70:05)

I was committing fraud every day, multiple times a day. Couldn't go a day without it.

B (70:10)

So you were using all with the, with the stolen credit cards.

A (70:13)

You mean all with stolen credit cards. I mean this was, this was probably like a four year span of my life.

B (70:19)

Four years, every day. You were, what were you buying with these stolen credit cards?

A (70:25)

Everything. But I mean ultimately like, you know, stuff that you could self ass. You know, I don't, I don't want to say too much because I don't want to encourage people to do what I did. But like a lot of it, you know, thankfully a lot of the systems today have, you know, migrated a lot of the stuff that I was doing before.

B (70:42)

Right. I actually did a episode of Trafficked about cyber fraud. And I remember one of the scenes we shot with this woman in Miami where she'd buy these credit cards on a website called Vice Vice, Vice City, ViceCity.com. and she'd buy. So she'd buy stolen credit cards and then she had these gift cards from Best Buy, Amazon, whatever and she would, yeah, re. Encode.

A (71:06)

Right.

B (71:06)

But there were no numbers in it. She was only able to like Swipe it in certain places it wasn't. But that's not what you were.

A (71:14)

No. So, like, doing that is like an obvious way of detecting fraud. Because, like, if I'm a cashier and if I see you swipe a gift card, I'm already one, a little suspicious. And then two, if I take the receipt and if I look at the receipt and I look at the last four, and if it doesn't match that number, I know it's fraud. So I mean, of course that's like measures you'd have to know if you're looking for it kind of ordeal. But like even Best Buy, like when you would buy something at Best Buy, you would swipe your card, but then you actually have to hand your card over to them because they would type in the last four numbers to confirm it's the same ones on the magnetic stripe.

B (71:53)

So you were making cards that looked exactly like a real credit card?

A (71:56)

Yeah, well, actually, it went a little bit crazier than that because one, I've always been cusp of technology, right? Like, I love newest tech, doesn't matter. Like always on the edge of it. And so with a lot of these credit card stuff, I was on the edge of it. And there was a wave where, you know, credit card writers, you had to plug them into the wall, right? And they're the big chunky things I'm sure you've seen, right? But then there was a change there that happened where it went Bluetooth. And I was on the early, early, early side of that of having portable mobile stuff where you could be on the go and doing it. And so I was really, really fascinated and spent a lot of time on this product called looppay. And looppay allowed me to open up the credit card fraud world because I could load a million credit cards on my phone and use them and not have to pull out a card and not have to do anything or swipe a card and show that it was the right number. And the way that it would work is actually. So, you know Android phone, they have Android Pay. You've heard of Android Pay?

B (73:04)

Yep.

A (73:04)

So Android Pay, the way that it works is that it actually emulates this magnetic field and it emulates like it's swiping a card. Not like Apple Pay, where it's actually a different frequency where you tap and it goes through a different reader. It actually goes through the magnetic stripe reader. So this company figured that out. But I figured that out, reverse engineered that product, made it so I can load unlimited credit cards in that Product. So I had a portable credit card factory on me, right? Because it's not like I have to go and make a credit card. And, you know, because fraudsters, what they do is they make 10, they go out for the day, they're done. They don't know where they landed on those 10. They're still working those three. I'm like, this one, this one, this one, this one.

B (73:51)

That is so crazy. You're like, it's mass scale of credit crowd of credit fraud. Because I think. People think, yeah, credit card fraud, probably, like a small crime. No, you're. We're talking, like, mass scale.

A (74:00)

We're talking mass scale.

B (74:01)

I actually wonder how much money is lost to credit card fraud in America. Actually, that's a good question, Matt. Can you look on Perplexity and see what. What it says? Just curious. Yeah, like, what's the number? Because I know that it's probably high. I don't think people know how big this is. So Perplexity says that in the United States, daily losses due to credit card fraud can be estimated from annual figures. In 2024, reported consumer losses from credit card fraud exceeded $12.5 billion. Dividing this by 365 is $34.25 million a day. $34 million a day is insane. This loss primarily arises from unauthorized transactions and fraud schemes targeting credit card users across the country. Wow. Around 62 million Americans experience fraudulent charges on the credit. I mean, I have.

A (74:54)

It's a problem. Every has. I think it's.

B (74:57)

That is crazy. Yeah.

A (74:58)

You know, it's a problem. And I mean, I'm happy that at least chip and PIN has addressed a lot of it, you know, but of course, there's still ways fraudsters can defeat these systems. I don't want to reveal those to.

B (75:10)

Encourage them, but let's not reveal.

A (75:12)

But, you know, there was. I had a lot of schemes of like, I had a thousand credit cards. What happens if I.

B (75:18)

A thousand credit cards.

A (75:19)

Well, hear me out. I have a thousand credit cards. Rather than me charge $500 on each one. Hurt everyone so bad. What if I just charge $2 on everyone every week? Put it on subscription, see if they notice. I just started coming up with small ways. How can I take a lot from just like, you know. Or how can I take a little from a lot?

B (75:41)

I should say so instead of. Yeah, because the moment you, like, take 500 or $1,000, they're gonna notice that they're on the phone, they're gonna call their bank. But if you take small amounts From a thousand cards, they're not gonna notice. But you're still making, you know, a thousand times a thousand, $2,000, whatever.

A (75:58)

Exactly.

B (75:58)

In goods. And were you also going to say like, Apple and buying a bunch of iPhones and then selling those, like, electronics?

A (76:06)

I can tell you.

B (76:07)

Were you doing that stuff?

A (76:08)

I can tell you, sadly, I don't think there's one retailer that I haven't like, successfully carted at.

B (76:13)

And were you never caught for this?

A (76:15)

I was caught for carding.

B (76:17)

That's what you were caught for.

A (76:18)

I was caught for carding. That was my big, big, big, like, sentence.

B (76:22)

And you were in Vegas, is that right?

A (76:23)

I got busted on my way to Vegas.

B (76:26)

Okay, so tell me about that.

A (76:27)

So big Carter, right?

B (76:31)

Big Carter.

A (76:33)

And it's Carter with a D. Yeah, exactly. Was planning a trip with the friends. You know, at the time there was an electronic music festival in Vegas they called edc. And so we'd planned a trip to go down with some buddies. And usually I fly to Vegas, you know, but this was the one time my buddies wanted to drive. You know, I was so. I was so dumb and naive. I wasn't thinking through with it like, properly. But what, what ultimately what was happen happening and I was turning a blind eye to. It was like they were gonna take these drugs down to this festival to sell them. But I was just going to go to the festival, have fun, fraud, you know, whatever. Right.

B (77:22)

Would you do that a lot in Vegas? Would you go to Vegas and use.

A (77:24)

I do it everywhere. Why? Why would you limit yourself? You know, it was trips anywhere because you can, you know, because you would. It got lucrative to, like, you know, I'd even fly to places where I know the data was good there because, like, I know that's breached there, so I need to be around there to use it. Like, it got pretty, pretty crazy at some points.

B (77:45)

Okay, so you're driving down to Vegas.

A (77:47)

Driving down to Vegas, a car with drugs goes sadly, and a car with drugs sadly. And we reach Ely, Nevada, population of 1200 people. And the jail is the foundation of this town. And that's where we get speed trapped at. And within a second, K9 unit comes, goes around the car, detects for drugs. Drugs detection. Okay? They find the drugs. Both my friends don't want to admit the drugs, whatever. I'm not a snitch. I'm not going to say this is your drugs or whatever. You know, I'm in here too. So eventually they find a wallet. And the problem was that the officer had already gotten our IDs, right. But I had a fraud wallet stashed away in my backpack with a fake ID and 16 credit cards under that name.

B (78:37)

Oh, my God.

A (78:38)

And just so you know, the name under that ID and credit card was Aiden Pearce.

B (78:46)

No way.

A (78:48)

I took on the character of watch dogs officially and lived the life of Aiden Pierce.

B (78:54)

Oh, my God, that's so good.

A (78:56)

Didn't stop hacking at whatever it took.

B (78:59)

Oh, it was always Aiden Pierce.

A (79:01)

Every new credit, it was always Aiden Pierce. And I remember so funnily, so funnily, in the FBI interrogation room when they finally got me, they're like, knew it was Aiden Pearce. They're pointing, I told you it was Aiden Pearce. They're like, laughing like, you really love watchdogs, don't you?

B (79:18)

Cause they knew what it was.

A (79:19)

They knew the whole time. I mean, I had done historic amounts of fraud like, throughout my town through other pieces of town under that name.

B (79:28)

So Aiden Pearce was notorious in your town at this point for doing this. So the cops catch a wallet with 16 credit cards, stolen credit cards with an a maiden beerus. They know it's yours.

A (79:39)

Yeah. So now not only do they have credit cards and all that fake driver's license, but now you got all this drugs too. Oh, my God. Best case down to take me down, Right? So I got hit with more than 25 felonies.

B (79:52)

25.

A (79:53)

Yep. I was looking at a guaranteed life sentence. No. Yep. My bail. So they put me on a bail at $2 million, cash only. Oh, my God. Yeah. I thought I was never gonna see the light of day. I didn't think I'd be here to sit here and tell you that story here. Yeah, it was crazy. It was really crazy.

B (80:12)

I am so sorry. When did this happened?

A (80:16)

This was 2016, 2017. Yeah.

B (80:20)

Wait, so you were arrested? You were taken to the jail?

A (80:23)

I was taken to a jail. Right. So crazy story, right? Because I'm caught with a fake ID and fake thing, right? So out the gate. The cops aren't even buying who I'm telling them I am. I'm telling them I'm Armand Sadri. They're looking at me like, this isn't not an Ahmad Sadri. Like this guy stole another identity. So they booked me in the jail as John Doe, and. And I'm yelling at him, please change my name. Nobody can find me. Because I'm arrested right now. Now people are trying to find me. I'm supposed to be someone nobody can. They're looking me up. I'm under John Doe in this jail system. And this cop is telling me, I'm gonna make sure I do everything in my power that nobody can find you again.

B (81:08)

That is so mean.

A (81:09)

I'm like, what the did I do right? Like, what? Like, I get it. Like, I was on the road, like, you know, like, bad time, but, like, I didn't go and defraud this person or, you know, that particular person. Defraud. I was. I was, you know.

B (81:26)

And then what happened?

A (81:27)

Well, my parents kept calling. My parents kept calling the jail. And as soon as my parents were calling the jail, they're like, okay, rebook him in as Armant Sadre. So they rebooked me in. They got it all established, and I had to sit there for a long time. Sat there for four months.

B (81:42)

For four months in the jail?

A (81:44)

Yeah. Whoa.

B (81:46)

And without knowing what was going to be your future at this point or anything.

A (81:49)

Nope, nope. Without knowing my outcome on the Microsoft case, without knowing all of that still.

B (81:56)

Was that the worst time for you?

A (81:57)

Yeah.

B (81:58)

Or did it get worse after, when you got to prison?

A (82:00)

So I was lucky. I never went to prison. I did jail time. I did jail time. All of my sentences were under a year.

B (82:08)

So, okay, so you were there for four months. And then there's a sentencing, there's a trial. Did you go to trial? And then there's a sentencing. And what was that?

A (82:15)

I did not go to trial.

B (82:17)

You pled guilty.

A (82:18)

So this is very, very interesting because, like, I need you to, like, imagine this, right? A very, very, very rugged, rugged jail cell, right? And throw 12 other people there in it. And it's the same people every day. Like, you can't escape these people. There's no way. So my case was a big case in this town, right? Everybody kind of knew it, but everybody felt bad for me because they're like, what the hell is this scrawny little computer guy? Like, what? Like, what did he do so bad? You know?

B (82:50)

Know.

A (82:51)

And so I'm going to jail or I'm going to court, right? But the way this jail is laid out, you can't come back without them reviewing your papers. But they forced to review your papers so they can decide if you're snitching or whatever's going on. So what ends up happening is the plea that's given to me is go home. We're going to personal release you, which is basically, we release you with no bond, but you have to show up at the FBI office and headquarters in Seattle.

B (83:26)

This is after four months.

A (83:27)

This is after four. This is. This is my. This is what they offered to me. Okay, this is the offer. Okay, so they gave me the offer, right? And they shoot me back into the jail. And of course it's 20 dudes tearing up my paperwork. Armand's gonna snitch. He's got a snitch. Armand's got a snitch. Shit. I'm like, fuck. Even if I wanted to agree to this, these guys would kill me. Like, I can't. I can't even do it. It was so crazy. It was all of the guys into one cell. And eventually after, like so much like doing this going back and forth, everybody, everybody was like, you're good, Arman, take the deal.

B (84:08)

Oh, really? They said, you should take it.

A (84:11)

They all agreed that I could get out of there.

B (84:14)

And then you took the deal?

A (84:15)

I took the deal.

B (84:16)

And then, and then there was.

A (84:18)

I took on my next chapter of life as working with the FBI.

B (84:26)

Wait, what? I don't know this part. Okay, explain. So wait, you're there for four months. They give you a deal, you take the deal. Which involves what?

A (84:34)

It takes the deal. It involves me showing back, showing up.

B (84:36)

To the FBI, showing up to the.

A (84:37)

FBI and saying, saying, where did all this fraudulent data. What have you done? And you know, I don't. I want to just say this again. I don't want to encourage anybody to done what I did. It's not worth it.

B (84:47)

Don't do it.

A (84:48)

Hey, kids.

B (84:49)

Kids at home.

A (84:49)

Don't do it. Yeah, don't do it. Right. I got the Hail Mary of Hail Mary opportunities where they promised me immunity of whatever I would tell them. So at that point in my life, I had the ability to say everything I've done for the whole entire my life that I was worried about being charged for. If I would just say it, I would be fine. I couldn't get in trouble for it. And for me, that was like a full reset. Like, I could just say all the crazy hacks that I'd done, all the breaches that I caused that people never figured out, give them the closure they wanted. And I did that. And it was a lot. It was a lot, a lot, a lot of damage that I did done. And at the end of the day, I mean, we were looking at the numbers and like, I can't believe we agreed to this, basically.

B (85:37)

But why did they agree to it? That's what I don't.

A (85:39)

I don't know. I don't know.

B (85:41)

Did you guys hire a great lawyer? Did your dad, like, get a good lawyer for you?

A (85:45)

It was like, I was very, very lucky. My mom, as soon as I got in trouble, she flew down to that town, started understanding every single bit of that town, and she took on the prosecuting attorney of that town that knew everybody really, really well. Richard Sears is his name. And Richard Sears did me justice. You know, he helped talk to the prosecuting attorney and everything. But, I mean, it was grilling. I mean, you have my mom there and the prosecuting attorney telling my mom, you've raised a cyber terrorist. We can't let this guy go, because if we do, he's gonna hit and run out of the country and cause a million more damages immediately.

B (86:28)

They called you a cyber terror.

A (86:29)

Yeah.

B (86:31)

Is your mom devastated at this point?

A (86:33)

I mean, I feel so bad putting my mom through all that. Yeah.

B (86:36)

But somehow, I mean, she worked her ass off. You got lucky, and you got immunity for all of this.

A (86:42)

I did.

B (86:43)

Is that why in many ways, you can talk about even the stuff that you didn't get caught for?

A (86:46)

Yes, it is. It is.

B (86:48)

And then you started working with the FBI? What does that mean?

A (86:51)

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I started working as, like, an informant, started getting information. Like, at that time, a lot of it was focused on dartnet markets, you know, But I think this was not.

B (87:04)

That's just to be clear. This was not as an informant with the groups that you had before. And that's.

A (87:09)

I was never an informant for that. Never had. I never informed anybody that I'd done crime with, if that makes sense.

B (87:14)

Right. Yeah. That's what I wanted to make clear, because I knew that was.

A (87:17)

I'm not a snitch. Like, I haven't snitched, but I took on for a time.

B (87:23)

Yeah. They paid you to get in. To infiltrate into these dark nets.

A (87:26)

Yes, into these forums. And I'd help leverage somebody else to get in. Or what would happen is, a lot of times I would give big samples of credit card numbers where we would figure out where they got breached from by corresponding the numbers to the breaches. So there was a lot of cool stuff. And the good part about that was, like, during that time, like, I knew the eyes were on me so hard. Like, I couldn't really commit credit card fraud, so I wasn't tempted to, like, charge the numbers I was working with or anything, because I knew I was working with the FBI. The wrath that would take me down at any point. Like, I don't want to ever hurt the FBI at all.

B (88:05)

So, like, how much were they paying you to work with them?

A (88:08)

Not enough. Not enough.

B (88:11)

But you were actually helping.

A (88:12)

Yeah.

B (88:12)

Did that feel Good. After so many years of doing bad things, did it feel good to suddenly get them?

A (88:17)

Bittersweet, because I felt like I was screwing over other people still. I was setting them up still. You know, like, I felt like I was causing pain for more people. But, you know, like, sadly, I wasn't getting paid enough. So I got greedy.

B (88:33)

And you got. You went to the dark side again.

A (88:37)

I did what we call an Albert Gonzalez. You ever heard that?

B (88:40)

No.

A (88:41)

Albert Gonzalez was a black hat hacker. Very, very famous. Breached, tgi, Max, Dave and Buster's. Many, many, many more companies. I mean, it was one of the biggest at the time, credit card thefts. But he worked with the Secret Service and was doing both. So I called it Albert Gonzalez.

B (89:04)

So you were doing both. So you were working with the FBI?

A (89:05)

I was. I was working with the FBI and I was still doing fraud. And I figured out a way of. I won't say the name of for sake of. For them, but there was a payment processor, which I'm sure you're very, very well. If I said the name, you would know it, but there's a payment processor. I think I know which one it is.

B (89:24)

So it's the payment process that most of you use when you're trying to.

A (89:28)

Send money, to send money to family and friends, right? Yeah. So I figured out a way how to send notifications through their app without actually having to send the money through.

B (89:37)

Right. So just so people understand, so let's say I sold you a pair of really expensive Nikes, or I put them online. You say, I'm gonna buy them from you. They receive a notification saying, you know, $800, you just received. So they will give you. Right?

A (89:56)

Yep.

B (89:56)

They would give you the goods.

A (89:57)

Yep. They'd give me the money. I'd go to my hacked iPad and send the fit notification to them, and they'd be like, oh, great, it's there. Walk away. They wouldn't notice till they're home, their money's not there, and I'd have the goods. And in my mind, you know, I was thinking, like, hey, I'm not using any financial information. You know, I was really trying to think, like, slick about it. Like, of course I'm defrauding somebody. Like, it's so stupid to think now, like. Like, how could you even try to justify something like that?

B (90:25)

Because credit cards are online and they're sort of. You don't see the face. Right. But in this case, you're actually meeting people to get the goods face to face. So you're knowing and you're seeing the person that you're.

A (90:34)

It did hurt a little bit more. And, you know, like, the biggest thing about this game is, like, people tell themselves things to keep them going. Like, like a big thing is like, oh, it's not their money, it's the bank's money, right? Where they call and their money. That's not the case.

B (90:52)

Right? But in this case, it was people's goods, right, that they were selling to.

A (90:55)

Even worse, they had nobody to call and get the money back. Right? It was like they were actually ripped. Like, they're actually raped. And the last imagined thing that they have is just me with it, you know? Of course, that sucks.

B (91:06)

And how did you get caught?

A (91:07)

So I ripped off a policeman's kid, sadly. Like, it. I mean, I was. I don't want to say successful at what I was doing, but I did it a lot and made a lot of money for a while while doing this other stuff too, without alerting anybody, until finally the kid found me on Instagram, was able to point me to his dad and say, say, this is the guy, right? And then I'm sure at that point.

B (91:33)

The police was like, no doubt, this is the guy.

A (91:35)

When they sucked the eruption. And luckily for them, I'm still checking into probation. So what they do is they waited for me when I checked into probation, swooped in, arrested me. I did another six months in jail, in jail, in.

B (91:52)

But this time in Seattle.

A (91:53)

This time in Seattle and met Dalton, hacked the tablets in jail.

B (92:00)

So that's another funny story, because you went into jail, you know, a new kid, and immediately you became very popular because you were able to hack the tablets that they use in jail. To do what?

A (92:11)

I was able to browse the Internet. I was able to watch videos. I was able to do anything I wanted.

B (92:16)

And you were allowing other prisoners to do that too, right?

A (92:18)

I was, yeah. There was a fee. And then, like, at one point, it started to leak and somebody found out, like, by shoulder surfing me, like, how I did it. And then everybody found out, and then they patched it, and then we found another way. And then people were threatening to beat me up if I didn't tell them. It got so crazy. Like, I'm just so happy I'm here today to tell the stories, because it's just ridiculous.

B (92:36)

Was it the six months in prison in Seattle? Sorry, in jail, Was that worse?

A (92:40)

That was worse for me because I told myself, like, there was no more.

B (92:48)

That this will never happen, this would never happen again.

A (92:50)

And I was back. And then, like, when I was Back at that time, I was like. I started counting. I'm losing years off my life doing this. If I keep this up, like, where am I gonna land? What's gonna happen? You know, like, full questioning, like, what is my future? You know, at this point? But all I knew is I wanted to keep hacking. That's all I knew. Didn't care what it was, how it was. That was the only thing. And I think the thing that, like, permanently scared me out of doing crime. Like, the last, last draw was on the final Microsoft case after everything, everything else had already closed. The Microsoft case is the last thing that's supposed to close out. I did 500 hours of community service by starting an app with other hackers at the time. Shout out to Bryce Case, known as YT Cracker. He's an amazing hacker. Love the guy. Saved my life like, eight times. Shout out to him. But he started an app that allowed people to donate leftover food and deliver it to homeless people.

B (93:58)

Oh, wow.

A (93:59)

And so he brought me into that app, and I was like, I'm gonna run this app. I'm gonna do it all around Seattle. And we delivered more than, like, 2,000 meals to homeless people. And, like, had it such an effect even outside the courthouse that the judge recognized me from giving out food to homeless people when I was there in court. So, like, I showed the app in court and everything when it came down to sentencing, and the judge was just like, honestly, if anybody deserves a last shot, it's you.

B (94:30)

Oh, wow.

A (94:31)

And left me on scot free.

B (94:32)

Wow.

A (94:33)

Yeah.

B (94:33)

That's incredible. And did that change your life?

A (94:36)

That changed my life because on that sentencing, there was one stipulation that almost got through. They almost banned me for computers for life.

B (94:48)

Oh, my God, that would have been awful for me.

A (94:50)

Commit suicide. Like, what's life without computers for me? So, like, knowing that that was at risk, I was like, I have to do good. I have to do as much good as I can within, like, such amount, short amount of time, you know what I mean? To pay it forward.

B (95:07)

And you're getting emotional to me. And I mean. And that's why you do what you do now.

A (95:11)

I do.

B (95:12)

And this is why when we met at defcon and you haven't been doing any fraud and you haven't been hacking for malicious hacking for good. You've been hacking for good. This is why when we met and when I told you the project that I was working on and what I was trying to do, I could see that this was like, wow, I can't Believe it.

A (95:32)

Because in so many ways, we aligned so perfectly.

B (95:33)

Yeah, in so many ways. You know, we can. We can't talk a lot about the project, but essentially it's using your skills for good, right?

A (95:39)

Yes, 100% it is. It's giving back. You know, it's proving that what we can do is for good, not for bad.

B (95:45)

Yeah. Tell me, why is that important for you?

A (95:47)

I think it's important for me because of all the people that I hurt without noticing during the way. Cause there was a lot of damage done, whether it be family, friends, even people I didn't know. Like, people had bad days because of me. And that sucks. I don't want to give that to people, if that makes sense.

B (96:07)

Yeah. And so how can you use your skills now to help people?

A (96:10)

So I do penetration testing. So that's like finding the holes for the company to help them break into them, and then showing the company how to fix those holes is a big thing. So I love doing red team engagements is what we call them. So, like, I even get to go to, like, a physical building and see, like, how I would physically break into it. I get to see what wireless points are accessible from outside. But even a step further, I worked really, really closely with my attorney who was helping me through all this at the time, whose name's Robert Rhodes. Working closely with his law firm, I was able to do, like, forensic work for their computer crime cases that they had come in. So I was able to provide, like, forensic research that was used in, like, like, court documents and, like, stuff that was helping move the ball forward and not backwards.

B (97:00)

And even in my case, where I've reached out to you, because I got approached a lot by people who are victims of scams and they need help, and sometimes they just want to figure out if they're being victimized, victims of scams or not. And I reach out to you, and you always, within seconds, answer back. And you're always available and willing to try to figure out how to help people, even without, you know, without any financial contributions or anything. You just are very willing to help. And that's pretty, pretty special because you do have this incredible skill. And I've seen it, and I've been happy to be working with you and using some of your skills and being close to your skills, and it's pretty amazing. And I know, I knew from the moment we met that you were a good person.

A (97:41)

Thank you.

B (97:41)

Whatever that means. It can be very cliched and very simplified, but I could see that there was a great partner There. Thank you. And when we started talking and you told me I was part of a group that hacked into Xbox and I'm crazy and all this stuff that you started telling the story, I was like, this is. But now I really want to use my skills for good. I was like, yeah, this is basically the person I've been looking for.

A (98:02)

Perfect. Perfect timing. Thanks for showing up at defcon. Couldn't have asked for a better person.

B (98:07)

Yeah, it's great.

A (98:08)

Awesome.

B (98:09)

So you're happy with what you're doing right now?

A (98:10)

I'm so happy.

B (98:12)

You're hoping you can grow. You have your own white hat hacker group as well, right?

A (98:17)

I have my own consulting firm that I do stuff through. So people that need help.

B (98:22)

What is it called?

A (98:23)

It's the Good hackers.

B (98:24)

The good hackers.

A (98:25)

Thegoodhackers.com.

B (98:26)

If people need. If. Yeah. Like, I mean, there's so many victims of scams and hacking. If they need to go. If they need help, they can go to victim.

A (98:36)

Worried about being a victim or if you are a victim.

B (98:38)

Right. They can handle it.

A (98:39)

You are in the right hands. If you contact us, if you're looking for cybersecurity services and it's you and.

B (98:44)

A group of people doing it.

A (98:45)

It is. Yes, it is me and the top best hackers in Washington.

B (98:48)

Have you been. Has there a moment? I'm sure there have been moments where even though you're doing. Using your skills for good, where there have been, what do you call it?

A (98:58)

Temptations.

B (98:59)

Temptations 100%. Thank you.

A (99:00)

Temptations 100%. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, still, I just be really careful of what I focus my time into, because I know I can do anything. Anything. It's like, if my goal is to figure out how to break into every car, I can do that very easily.

B (99:13)

Yeah, it's tricky because it's like it's having a superpower and making sure that you're using your superpower for good. I mean, there's been lots of cartoons.

A (99:19)

Written about this responsibility with that. Like, you have to take on that responsibility and use it. Right, right.

B (99:24)

Well, I'm so happy you're using it for good.

A (99:26)

Thank you.

B (99:27)

I hope you keep doing it. I'm sure you will.

A (99:29)

I will.

B (99:30)

And mainly I'm happy that we met and that we're working together and that we're friends.

A (99:34)

Me too.

B (99:35)

And that you came on the podcast. Yes.

A (99:36)

And I would love to keep helping you. I remember when I met you at DEF con, you were like, oh, I can't be hacked. I was. You Were like. You're like, there's no. There's no. Wait, how are you gonna show me something? You're like, there's no information about me. Like, you can't, like, figure out, like, what. What it is. Like, remember? You were like, there's no way you'd know. So I'm not gonna show the camera here. Okay.

B (99:58)

What I told you, Armand, What I told you. You. Sorry, Armand, what I told you was that I subscribe to all these programs.

A (100:07)

Yes.

B (100:07)

And services.

A (100:09)

Correct.

B (100:09)

That protects my. That protect my identity because I am a public figure.

A (100:14)

And.

B (100:14)

But. And I said.

A (100:15)

Yes.

B (100:16)

I challenged you and I said, I bet you can't get information about me online that is compromising.

A (100:21)

So I'm not going to show the camera because this is actually very sensitive information.

B (100:25)

We should have started.

A (100:25)

But if you just want to confirm if any of this is sensitive, you can let me know.

B (100:30)

What the fuck? What the fuck? Okay, so you got my address, but you also got one of my passwords. The other one I don't recognize.

A (100:42)

Good.

B (100:42)

That's a good one. Second one is not, but the first.

A (100:44)

One I'm worried of. Why? That worked on one of your accounts.

B (100:46)

Shit, dude, you need to help me figure this out.

A (100:48)

I got you. I got you. Don't worry. We'll. After this, we'll do a full assessment.

B (100:52)

Did it work on a kitten?

A (100:53)

It did. Yeah, it did. Let me log into an account with that.

B (100:55)

Okay. It was not one of my main accounts because I've changed.

A (100:58)

It was, like, one of your alternate.

B (101:00)

Ones, but just to show you that you're good.

A (101:03)

Like, it's out there. Right? So, like, you know, you can pay for all these services, but at the end of the day, if a hacker wants you, a hacker's got you.

B (101:10)

By the way, I just realized I never said your name at the top because I know you.

A (101:15)

I mean, we know each other.

B (101:17)

Sadri, but also Armand the side Cyber, which is what I Cyber saved on my.

A (101:21)

Dude. Or my. That is my hacker name. That is what I've gone by.

B (101:24)

So on the podcast, you want your name to be Armand the Cyber.

A (101:26)

Armand the Cyber. Yes. And so that is like, a funny way. Like, I started off as Armand the cyber criminal, but now I'm just Armand the Cyber.

B (101:35)

The Cyber Good guy. Yeah, that's. Recall it Armando, Cyber superhero.

A (101:40)

Yep, exactly.

B (101:42)

I love it. Thank you so much. Armand is Cyber for coming on the podcast. And let's figure out this password situation.

A (101:49)

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B (102:30)

Experian.