Boris Becker (2:34)

Look, there are a number of reasons. One is lessons learned. I wanted, you know, younger athletes not to have to Go through what I went through. You know, it's quite a thick book and I was trying to explain where it started and where it ended. So not everybody has to do the same mistakes that I've done. Secondly, there's so much bs, quite frankly. Can I swear on the show. Can I speak the way I speak?

Host 2 (3:04)

You can speak the way you speak.

Boris Becker (3:06)

There was so much BS written for such a long time, and because it was a pending court case, you're not supposed to answer. Legally, you're not entitled to speak. So I had the urge to really tell everyone that's what happened. Whether you like it or you don't like it, that's exactly what happened. That's what got me through this. And yeah, it's also a bit of a testament for my children. They're older, especially the three ones, three older ones. And I wanted them to, instead of reading always what, what their father has done or. Or didn't do, I wanted them also to have a clearer understanding what happened with the 17 wunderkind. 17 of wunderkind, and, and what what the 57 year old is doing now. Of course, of course, you know, I love them and I speak to them a lot, but obviously they got their own lives too, and, and you know, they got their own, own situations as well. So I felt like it was important, you know, for my history, that this is a piece of work that it's hopefully important. Yeah.

Host 2 (4:11)

So this book is the truth from Boris.

Boris Becker (4:14)

It's my truth. Of course, everybody has their point of view, but what's the point of not speaking honestly if you decide to do a book? I think it's fundamental that you speak your truth about trying to explain everything, what happened, and then, yeah, hopefully you like it and hopefully you understand my.

Host 2 (4:39)

Situation a bit better and you're happy in this long conversation that we're about to have to talk about all of it.

Boris Becker (4:45)

I'm happy, yeah. I mean, that's part of writing a book is also you want a lot of people to read it. You know, you want to be, you know, it's sort of called the promotional trail, what I'm in. And I wanted to also find a podcast that's listened to and I've heard you're quite successful, so that's good. No, I mean, it's, it's obviously, obviously the demand is very high. You know, I'm bringing it out in Germany as well. But you have to, you have to speak with the right people. Also. You, you. It's important that I've been given the Time to explain a little bit what happened because it's not done in a, in a 30 second interview.

Interviewer (5:24)

And what misconceptions do you hope that this book addresses?

Boris Becker (5:30)

Well, first of all, I was trying to explain the other side of a 17 year old wunderkind. It's not all beautiful. I wanted to explain that even you're very successful in your teens and in your twins, you make a lot of money, that you can still get in trouble if you hang out with the wrong people. We live in a very fast moving, media driven time, which it's based on headlines, which is based on the attention span of the younger generation is unfortunately very short. So they don't really have the time and the understanding to get into the real story of things. And I'm on the receiving end there sometimes for good or for bad. I know that if Boris Becker's on the headline, it sells the paper. And there are times I benefit from that, of course, but there's many, many times where it didn't, where it actually hurt me. It hurt my image and hurt my reputation. So fortunately I'm still able to speak decently, even in English, and I'm able to make my case, make my case because. And I feel like for too long other people have spoken on my behalf. That is no longer the case.

Host 2 (6:55)

Well, here we go then. This is the platform for you to tell your story in your words. And the book that you've written starts with the day that, that you were sentenced.

Boris Becker (7:03)

Yeah.

Host 2 (7:04)

And the fear of standing in that glass box, not really able to work out exactly what was going on comes across so clearly in the book. What's your abiding memory of, of that day?

Boris Becker (7:15)

Well, it was the 29th of April in 2022. And it was my partner then my wife, now it was her birthday. So on the same day of all days of the year. So the morning I went, we were living very close to Harrods at the time and there's a nice flower shop, so I got a nice, nice bunch of flowers and we hugged each other briefly and then obviously we had to catch a cab. On my way to the courts, I picked up my son Noah, because he was with us the whole time. And yeah, I put my gray suit on, I put my Wimbledon tie on because I feel that my Wimbledon success, and especially as a 17 year old, was partly the reason I was put so much on the spot. I packed my bag. Now how do you pack? How do you pack if you don't know whether you come home at night? How do you pack if you don't know whether. Whether your sentence is. Is, you know, seven years. So usually I'm a very good packer, but I was really confused, you know, the days before how I'm going to pack. So, yeah, I had my little. My little puma back, and I, you know, went to Black Cab and with Lillian, Noah, and we went to court. And then, then you wait. You, you, they. They sit you behind the. They call it the dog. And you have to say goodbye to your loved ones before. Because if they found you guilty and if they give you sentence, then they take you straight from the dog down into the cellar. And there's a holding cell where you wait then, and you can't say goodbye anymore, which is quite a brutal moment. So we were touching each other on the window with the hand, and then we went down.

Host 2 (9:03)

And what about the moment when the judge passed the sentence? Did you have any idea from your legal team exactly how long you were going to be incarcerated?

Boris Becker (9:12)

Well, up until the judgment, there was still a 50, 50 chance that I, I don't have to go. I was still hoping, you know, crossing my fingers that it's a suspended sentence. And so my, My legal team, they were, you know, 50, 50. They say expect the worst, you know, and hope for the best. And then obviously, the verdict, you know, the judge spoke is very long, so with very technical terms. So some of. Some of it you hear, some of you understand, some of it you don't. And there are moments when you have hope. There's moments when you go, okay, this sounds like it's going to be suspended. And then there are moments when you go, oh, my God, it's going me. It's giving me years. And because you're behind a very thick glass window, you don't hear every word on top of it. So you have to really listen carefully what it is. And then there was a lot of talk about concurrently and consecutively. And before that, nobody told me the difference. So when she said guilty in count four, 13 month, and then three more counts where I was found guilty, it was 18 months. 18 months and 18 months. And for a second, I calculated that together, which is seven years. But what she said was then consecutively and concurrently, and for one of these, I had to serve. And that was the first one. But I didn't know that until I went down into the holding cell, had a last meeting with my lawyers, and then they were explaining to me, the whole amount is 30 months. It's not seven years, which is better, but it's still bad if I think about it now. Crazy.

Host 2 (10:55)

What do you think?

Boris Becker (10:58)

It's like a movie. I mean, it's like a different life. If you understand my life now, in peace and freedom with my wife and with my loved ones and all those years before, it's like a really scary movie.

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Boris Becker (11:51)

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Host 2 (12:47)

Grainger for the ones who get it done.

Interviewer (12:57)

There was a moment in the book where you recount your son Noah standing up and reading out a letter to the court. Would you tell us about that letter and the impact on you?

Boris Becker (13:09)

Well, you were. You were asked, obviously, by your legal team that your family, your friends, your loved ones then write letters addressing the judge about your character and your personality. And, you know, he wrote a beautiful letter that, you know, it's not only affecting his father, but it's also affecting his life, his mental health and that of his brother. You know, we sometimes forget this is a. It's a human story, right? There's a person, there's A person behind the name. And I felt like, you know, sometimes judges, of course, they have to make their decisions and the rulings and it's quite harsh sometimes, but. But you want to try to give it a human point of view of the judge understanding you're not only penalizing a man, you're penalizing a whole family. So you better be sure that this man is guilty.

Host 2 (14:02)

And how did you feel hearing your son say that his mental health's being affected by what's happening?

Boris Becker (14:07)

Yeah, it's a fact. I mean, it's something that I knew before. It wasn't a short case, it was dragged for years. It's sad. I mean, he's good now. He's good now. He's a wonderful boy. But, you know, what about my mother? What about my sister, you know, what about my partner? Everyone is affected by that. We sometimes don't think about that.

Host 2 (14:28)

But it's a hard emotion for you because as the son, you want to protect your mom. As the dad, you want to protect your son. As the husband or the partner, you want to protect your partner. And you were sort of the reason they were feeling like this. So for you personally, the emotions must have been difficult.

Boris Becker (14:45)

Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, obviously it's my responsibility. It's, you know, bears on your shoulder. You know, you feel guilty by putting them through something like that. So now since I'm out, I'm even more protective of them. Being a wise old man now. I'm just trying to protect them from making stupid mistakes. Having grown children, though. Good luck with that. You know, parenthood doesn't stop when they're 18. It, it never really stops, but it's a, it's a big, you know, it's. They're the loves of my life, of course, but it's a, it's a big responsibility.

Host 2 (15:22)

Yeah, I thought one of the interesting elements early on in the book is. So you were sentenced to 30 months for fraud relating to a previous bankruptcy case.

Boris Becker (15:31)

Well, well, let me, let me correct you because I was going to ask you, you actually know what I did, you know what I was found guilty of? Yes, I will ask you because that's one part of the book is, and I give you a few minutes to think about it. Part of the book is that people wrote so much rubbish of what I supposedly have done. I've been pretty non emotional about that because I felt like it's my duty to say, actually, count four was for what? Count ten was for what count. Count 12 was for what? And if you read that, you go, that was it. That's it. That's what he was. He went to prison for. And I'm not saying today it's wrong or right, it's just I was trying to be matter of factly of count four got me 30 months. Now, let me ask you, you know, you know what count four was?

Host 2 (16:23)

I don't know what count four was specifically, but.

Boris Becker (16:26)

But that's very important.

Host 2 (16:27)

It is. But I'll tell you what I thought before reading the book. And after reading the book, when I read the media coverage and looked on the Internet, I thought, boris has been hiding money. He's been sending money offshore. He's been not declaring things and they've finally caught him out and he's been scuppered and he's gone to prison. And then I read the book, and it seems to me that you went through a bankruptcy case. You had representatives who told you, and again, correct me if I'm wrong, that it's okay to use the money. You've got to do the important things, pay child maintenance, cover mortgages, pay essentials. So you weren't, it felt, having read the book, that you weren't hiding those things. You were doing what you thought was right. And then here we are a few years later, and you're standing in a courtroom facing 30 months in prison because of the things that you thought were okay to do. Is my reading of that correct?

Boris Becker (17:19)

It goes in the right direction, yes. So let me tell you a little bit how a bankruptcy case in the UK works. Because that's the first misconceptions. Everybody knows how it works. Very few people actually do. They declared me insolvent on the 21st of June, in 2017, for a loan to an English private bank for three and a half million euros. Okay? That's correct. I owed the bank three and a half million euros. But the fight with the bank for four years was because they put on the loan a 25% interest, which in Germany and the rest of Europe is actually not legal. But in America and the uk, it depends what you signed on. So again, then someone should have told me, boris, this interest rate is a bit high. I mean, are you sure that didn't happen? You know, it's called the small print. Right, the small print. I didn't read. My fault. I'm not going to blame anybody. So that 25% I didn't want to pay on the three and a half million, okay, that was this case about. So when we had that hearing on the 17th of June, my representative were asking the judge, give Mr. Becker three more months because he's about to sell his FINCA and Mallorca, which was worth 10 million, and then he can easily pay the debt to the bank. It was not necessary to put me into insolvency because what happened after, I still sold the finca and paid the bank the full amount back. So ultimately, 10 million that I owed to the bank is paid back in full. So that's when it started. That's when it started. So the week after you're declared insolvent, you meet a gentleman and his title is official receiver from the authorities. And the official receiver now explains exactly what bankruptcy in the UK means. He says, from now on, all your private bank accounts are frozen. You have to declare what you have, your real estate cash accounts and everything, and then you're going to meet your trustee a little bit later. So that bit later is important. I met it on the 13th of September. So I met the OR just a couple days before Wimbledon started. That's why I remember the date. So I met them in late June. So my question to the OR was, okay, now since I can't use my private accounts anymore, how do I pay my rent, how do I pay my mortgages, how do I pay child support and how do I pay for my surgery that I've had after Wimbledon already organized in Switzerland? He says, do you have a company? Do you have a company account? I said, yes. He says, well, use that money. But once you meet the trustee, tell the trustee that you've used that money to pay your bills. That's exactly what I've done. On 13 September, I told the trustee I have paid what the OR has advised me. I don't know yet whether the house in Germany is mine because my mother lives in the house, so I think she owns half of it. But give me two or three weeks, I find exactly who owns the house. The house has a mortgage, which we've done before the insolvency happened. So nothing to do with the insolvency, actually. And I have shares in a, in a sport Internet company. I don't know the amount and I don't know the value, but here's the company's director. That's his email, that's his phone number. But I'm happy also to find out. I found all this information out on the 28th of September. The reason I know all these dates is because it's proven in court. Yeah, I mean, I can prove you that everything I'm saying Is correct. So on 28 September, the trustee heard that the house in Lyman is mine, that he has a mortgage around the value of the shares of the Internet company. The value was about £9,000. That's what he sold it for. That was my crime, though. So fast forward a couple of years. They were accusing me of 29 different counts. 25 of these counts I found not guilty. And the four counts I was found guilty was that I took money out of my company account to pay my bills, that I didn't declare the house in Germany. I didn't declare that it has a mortgage, and I didn't declare that I have shares in an Internet company. Those were the four counts of what was found guilty for. I'm not telling you whether I liked it or not, because it's not important anymore. It's not even that important whether I say it was wrong. I just want to say that's exactly what happened to me. And if it can happen to me, it can happen to you. It can happen to anybody. If the system wants to get you for whatever reason, the system usually wins. Harsh words, what I'm saying, but I'm giving you the truth. And you're asking before about the book. That's exactly what happened to me.

Host 2 (22:42)

Why did the system want to get you?

Boris Becker (22:46)

You know, anybody else at 117? I'm a big name. I'm a huge fish. I'm a huge fish for the prosecution. I'm a huge personality. Meaning if they're going to get Boris Becker, they're going to get everybody or anybody you know, really. They are more powerful than you. And of course, I'm not here blaming anybody. Okay? I could have had better advisers. I could have been smarter, I could have taken more time. But I didn't think for these mistakes that I would ever be in prison.

Host 2 (23:21)

So when you're found guilty and the judge decides that you, you did commit these crimes, how are you kind of processing the fact that this is your truth? Yet that judge is saying that you've broken the law. Like, what was the evidence that they had to say that what you're saying is not true?

Boris Becker (23:37)

It's already too late. Then you already passed the point. You already accepted everything that happened. The most difficult weeks were the three weeks between April 8th, when I was found guilty to the sentencing, April 29th. Because in these three weeks, you actually don't know. You just know that you've been found guilty in four points. And these four points I just explained. But you don't know what that means, of course, you ask your legal team every day, and they say, boris, there's not another case in the British system that's anywhere close to you. So we don't have an example. We don't know. There's 15 other cases that have done exactly what you've done. So we don't know. We don't know. We can only tell you that it's 50, 50, and you better prepare for the worst, because if you find guilty for each count, you might have to go for many, many years. So that was my preparation.

Host 2 (24:32)

You're a man who spent his life being in control on the tennis court. That was your incredible innate ability. What did it do for your own mental health when you were so out of control in these three weeks?

Boris Becker (24:47)

For good or for bad? I'm not really afraid of things. You know, I wish I would be more afraid in my life because some of the things that happened to me would have happened. But I'm not really someone that is afraid of going to women's center court or going to a back alley somewhere or, you know, mixing with the wrong people. I'm not afraid of that. So when these things started to happen to me, I accepted them quickly. I said, I can't change them. You know, they're not in my control. I have to do the best I can to solve the situation. The main thing here is acceptance. So the judge is right and I'm wrong. No questions asked. Whatever she says, I accept and I do what I'm told to do. That's the only way to deal with it.

Interviewer (25:37)

And was that learned in that process, or had you always had that sense of acceptance?

Boris Becker (25:42)

You know, we talk about stoicism a little bit in the book, and I think without knowing, I was probably my whole life stoic, meaning I live very much in the moment. So today counts, yesterday is gone, and tomorrow we don't know what he's going to bring. So I guess that helped me later on in life accepting difficulties, because ultimately, life has blessed me. I'm healthy. I'm still young enough. I have a family that loves me. So for me, that was always my cornerstone, is that deep down, I know I've been blessed. Okay? You know, winning Wimbledon, star 17, was wonderful. Being number one in the world is wonderful. Very few people can do that. Yes, there's a price to pay. Yes, there's consequences. Nobody. Yes. Some people don't like my nose. Some people don't like my success. You know, I've beaten a lot of players. I'm sure they don't like me either, but that's part of the package. So even after my career, you know, I'm sure I've pissed people off. Of course I have. We all do. It's just that when Boris Becker does it, it's a bigger consequence because of the name. So there's many examples I can give and we could speak a week and I gave you lots of examples of that. So great things happen because I'm Boris Becker, and bad things happen because of Boris Becker, sometimes for the same reasons. I've learned to accept that too.

Host 2 (27:11)

Before we go back to the moment that you left that courtroom and you headed to your. Your new home, I think a lot of people. Temporary home.

Boris Becker (27:20)

Yeah.

Host 2 (27:20)

I think a lot of people listening to this will be thinking, how did a man who would have earned tens of millions of dollars over his career and was so successful at such a young age, and was lauded and celebrated for so many years, how did he need to borrow 3 or 4 million pounds from a private bank? Have you managed to work out how you ended up in that, in that situation, the lessons that people listening to this could take from that?

Boris Becker (27:44)

Well, first of all, I didn't earn tens of millions, right? Now, another wrong story. You know, if you were playing nowadays, I would earn the type of money. But in the 80s and the 90s, you didn't earn the type of money. Let me ask you a question. What was the prize money for Wimbledon champion in 1985? £300,000. That's before taxes, right? Which in 1985 was a shitload of money, right? Today the winner makes £3 million. So multiply everything that we earned today, it's tenfolded. Give you another example. So the price money I have won, which has always been written here, it's $25 million. That's before taxes and before costs. What was in my pocket was probably half, which is still a lot of money, but it's not tens of millions. Now, I had a great manager at the time, of course, I had John Tyria, of course he got me great commercial deals, but not tens of millions of money. So I was wealthy. Of course I was wealthy. What did I have then? Just to give you a better idea, in court, you have to declare what you think you've had. So, you know, in Euros, I can do that better. It was about 30 million euros, which is a lot of money. Now let me tell you another thing. So on the day I was called insolvent, I was cash poor and asset rich. What does it mean? I had A house in Germany, I had a finca in Spain, I had a flat in London. So I had these three expensive real estates. Now the only thing I asked to charge is that give me time to sell my finca and my orca and then I could pay the debt. What I didn't have anymore, and most athletes don't after their careers is have the same income. We have the same expenses. And there's another mistake I made. A lot of athletes made it. We don't have the same income, but we have the same expenses. So I kept paying the ex wives and the kids and the schools, but I didn't have the income. That's what I mean with cash poor and this where my problem started is that I had too much outgoings and not enough incomings. Let me give you another number. Since we talk about numbers, I mean, it's good for the show. So for three and a half million euros I lost all my real estate, right?

Host 2 (30:22)

Yeah, it was worth way more, Way more.

Boris Becker (30:25)

That's my point. So for my 3 1/2 million euro debt that I had to the private bank, plus the 25 interest, I lost my house in Mallorca, 10 million. I lost my flat in London for 2 1/2 million pounds. I lost my house in Germany for 2 million euros. So I've lost 15 million for 3 1/2 million debt. Again, that's not an opinion, that's a fact.

Host 2 (30:48)

There was a man who comes up in the book called Dieter Cleven, who's a business associate of yours, who does not come out of the book with any credit at all. What do you now think about the kinds of decisions you were making, about the people that you were trusting?

Boris Becker (31:01)

Look, it's all my fault. Again, I want to emphasize that it's nobody else's fault, right? It's my fault. But when you play tennis all your life, you focus on the practice, on the strategy and everything. I didn't study business. You depend on managers, you depend on lawyers. They're supposed to make your life better. And in most cases it works. In some cases it doesn't work. Now, when I finished my career, it was about 33, 34. Of course I want to learn the business side of it, but it's going to take time. Of course, there were sharks who took advantage of. Of the naivety. It wasn't even a question of not being educated. You just don't know the other side of business when you've been a professional athlete. I'm not the only one that happens. There's Many cases like me, where smart managers, agencies, naturally they take advantage of the player. That's their business. So it took me too long to realize that most of the people don't have my best interest at heart. They want to take advantage. But then the damage was done already. My mistakes that I paid for then in 2017 really started happening in 2010, 2011, 24. And then it's like avalanche, like an avalanche in the mountains. But it goes, it goes it thicker and you can't stop it anymore. I was looking for ways to stop the debt. I was looking for ways to have more income. I just didn't happen. And then ultimately I had to pay the price.

Host 2 (32:37)

Were you sleeping?

Boris Becker (32:39)

You sleep terribly? I mean, you don't really sleep anymore. And I mean, how many beers can you drink, right? I mean there's a point where you just don't sleep much. Thankfully, I'm a pretty strong character. So I hate drugs, I hate, you know, I had too much alcohol. So I'm, even then I lived through difficulties, doing a lot of sport as much as I can. I'm, I'm, you know, I walk a lot and I go to the gym, I swim. So, so that was my, my avenue. That was my way to, to deal with the stress. But it, you know, for years it was very stressful.

Host 2 (33:12)

Can I ask how much money you were left with at the end of this?

Boris Becker (33:19)

Everything I lose. Zero. I lost everything. You lost everything?

Host 2 (33:25)

Everything.

Boris Becker (33:25)

I, when I went to prison, everything was gone. Another thing, another thing that people don't understand if you get into a British insolvency, is that you're still allowed to make money. So from 2017 until I went to prison, I still had a pretty decent income to pay child support and my bills and everything. Otherwise, how would I live if I don't make anything? But you have to give 50% of your income to the trustee. So if you make 100,000, you cap you 50. If you make 500,000, you cap it to 50. So I was still earning a good enough living to pay for my lawyers, to pay for my house, to pay for my friends and family. But all this stopped the moment I went to prison. So then I literally had zero. So I went out with zero. And that's two and a half years ago.

Interviewer (34:22)

So what advice would you give to a 17 year old now about people and about your situation that would help them avoid the pain and the suffering that you've been through?

Boris Becker (34:34)

Actually, the 17 year old did all right. He was a, you know, talking about myself Here I was a tennis machine. I mean, I played, I won the tournaments, number one, really, up until I retired from tennis. That's when the problem started. There was a time in my mid-20s where I was burned out. I was tired of tennis. And maybe in hindsight today I would say at 25, take a break, take a year off, see what you want to do. If you still are willing to pay the price to be the best tennis player you can be, you know, smell the roses a little bit. So I didn't do that. I kept on and I had contracts, there was responsibilities and so forth. So I played that up until I was 32. Maybe I would have played longer if I would have taken a break at 25. I mean, now the guys playing their mid-30s, you know, but then I stopped also. I had a bad injury, had a bad right ankle and that needed to be fixed. And I think that was another main reason why I said, listen, I don't know if I'm ever going to come back. You know, the surgery is going to be very bad. And yeah, so.

Interviewer (35:43)

But if there was a 17 year old athlete listening to this today about your story, what would you teach them about people that could help them avoid some of these same pitfalls?

Boris Becker (35:53)

Well, pick your friends wisely, of course. Of course, you ideally come from great family, but then sports families are sometimes also taking advantage of the young player. That's common as well. Difficult, it's difficult thing to get out of alive, really. It's not healthy winning women at 17. In hindsight, I'd rather would have won later, maybe more often. You know, I lost, I was in seven finals, I lost four. So that, that's something. It still pisses me off today. So winning at 17 couldn't have been healthy. I mean, there was no, you know, there was no normal way out of this. I know that today you say in.

Host 2 (36:34)

Your book, after the 7th of July 1985, everything changed. And later on you say after that moment, it feels like someone else owns you. And young people these days, they laud fame, they laud money, they laud success and trophies. They think it gives them everything they ever want. And you're giving us a very different view of actually what fame is like at a young age. Would you share with us the real cost of that, how it felt to suddenly be famous, like what was actually going on in your life after, after winning Wimbledon?

Boris Becker (37:05)

I mean, just to put it into numbers, maybe even today, right. You know, in 85 there was no Internet, there was no Instagram. Right. Imagine a 17 year old Brit will win Wimbledon this summer or next summer. You know, he probably has hundreds of millions of followers in, in today's valuation. You know, he'll be a Messi, be Ronaldo. That would have been me, the 17 year old German, right? So losing control when a whole country takes over your life, that's what happened to me. Now tennis is an international sport, so of course some folks in America wanted the piece, some people in Australia wanted the piece. You know, my sponsors wanted the piece. That's what happened. So you lose control over your life and everything is decided for you. You know, some people have good interests, of course they do. But you no longer can go. Okay, I'm tired. For tomorrow's practice, you have to give a press conference because you're not having the practice tomorrow because the tournament sold the practice seats. People are watching your practice. Or when you don't want to play a tournament, right? You get a fine. Then you have to explain to the world, my shoulder hurts, they go, show me evidence. So you have to go to a doctor and he has to give you medical. So everything you do is judged. Now, considering all that, I did, well, a long time, but I think at 25 or so, 24, 25, I thought for the first time maybe it's time for a break because I'm too much. I want to live, I want to have a social life and I want to be normal, be normal then now. And so I didn't do that. So that was, that was a mistake. Is that a scary explanation for a 17 year old today? I'm always saying, you know, we have this phenomenon in football called Jamal, right? Look what he's going through. Look what he's going through. I'm not going to fast forward and I'm going to tell you how this is going to finish. But he's at high risk of going to difficulties in 10 or 15 years. Mark my words here.

Host 2 (39:16)

And explain for people that are still confused by that, why would a man seemingly with the world at his feet be facing those difficulties in a decade's time?

Boris Becker (39:25)

In his case, as much as I know him, I think he comes from very moderate beginnings, right? Not to say poor beginnings. He's a rich man now. His father's rich, his mother's rich, his sister's rich. So imagine all the people wanting the piece of that wealth. Imagine what he does to a brain of a 17 year old, an 18 year old, where everything is in the public. I mean, he's the poor guy who's texting a Girl. And now he's a girlfriend, so everything he does will be a headline. Tomorrow he plays for one of the biggest clubs. So a complete loss of privacy, which is very hard to take for anybody, let alone when you're still a child. At 17, you're still a child. You don't know yet how life is. You're not mature yet. Yes, you have your teammates and president of the club. I'm sure they're doing well. But ultimately, obviously, this boy goes to sleep alone and is wondering what the fuck is going on. And there are ways to deal with it. Some are good and some are bad.

Host 2 (40:28)

If you had five minutes in a room with him, what would your advice be?

Boris Becker (40:32)

Five minutes is not enough? No, honestly. Find two or three honest, serious people that look after you. The man, the person, the human being. Not after the wunderkind, after the project.

Host 2 (40:50)

Know how hard it is to make those judgments because you thought you were choosing the right people to look after your interests.

Boris Becker (40:54)

When I was playing, I was good. I had my parents, I had Interior. They were great people. Nothing happened to me. But my education in business just didn't happen. Therefore, I didn't know who was good in business, who meant well, who was cheating me, who was taking advantage of. So that was my issue. After I stopped playing tennis, in my tennis career, I was safe. But eventually, there's a time after.

Interviewer (41:20)

See, but I find it intriguing that the brain doesn't mature until around the age of 24 and 25.

Boris Becker (41:26)

Some people even say we're not mature, so maybe later.

Interviewer (41:30)

But I find it interesting that that was the age when you describe yourself as being burnt out and wanted to step away. So when you look back on the 17, up until the age of 24, what were the kind of mistakes that you realized you were making that maybe you wouldn't have done after that?

Boris Becker (41:48)

Well, there weren't that many mistakes. It's just very tiring. Playing 75, 80 matches every year. It's very tiring. Very tiring. It's frightening to go back to Wimbledon. 18, everybody says you're gonna lose this, you're not gonna defend this. So, you know, it's very tiring, very exhausting to go at Wimbledon and defend your title. So dealing with the pressures, dealing with the expectations, your own team doesn't believe you because nobody has done what I've done. So you're pretty much alone already then. And to overcome that and to deal with that and to deal with, you know, I'm sure just bringing Yamal again, I'm sure he's got some lonely moments. I mean, who can I talk to? Who can he talk to? Nobody's as good as he was at 18. Not even Matthew was that good. Nobody was as good as I was at 17. 18. Who can I rely to? Who can give you that advice to. Yeah, we had a couple of guys who were that good. And then you're supposed to do a wine set. That didn't happen before.

Interviewer (42:55)

So you said that was a frightening experience to go back to Wimbledon in 1986.

Boris Becker (43:00)

Yeah.

Interviewer (43:00)

But you've also said that you're somebody for good or worse, that doesn't get afraid. So when did you learn to deal with fear and how?

Boris Becker (43:10)

I've never had an issue dealing with pressure. I have my ways about it. Some people call me a little crazy, but it's fine. I never had an issue with that. It's more. Other people had an issue with me, how I was and maybe how I am. You put me. You throw me into the jungle of Brazil. I will find a way out, believe me. You throw him into HMB Wadsworth, I will come out alive. It's just the second nature. It's. Don't ask me how I do it, but I will find a way. So when I was 18, 19, 20. Yeah, there was a lot of pressure and it was difficult and exhausting and not every match I won. Of course not. But I was okay with it. I was okay with it up until I wasn't.

Host 2 (43:58)

Let's talk then about HMP Wandsworth. Because this story of yours, the story that makes you laugh, because if you wrote it it down as a movie script, it would be seen as too ridiculous to be real. But it is your lived experience. It is your life. So you get the sentencing from the judge. You put your hand up to the glass, to Lillian, she puts her hand back.

Boris Becker (44:18)

And Noah. Noah, too.

Host 2 (44:19)

And Noah.

Interviewer (44:20)

Yeah.

Host 2 (44:21)

You walk out of the dock. What on earth happens next?

Boris Becker (44:25)

Well, you actually go down. There's a. There's a little. A little door that leads you downstairs. There's a small reception because I was still in my suit and tie, in nice shoes. And they were very, very nice English gentlemen. They say, we're so sorry what happened to you. We're embarrassed. We know who you are. But the rules are you have to take off your suit, your tie, your shoes and everything and leave it here and put on your things that you brought to prison.

Host 2 (44:55)

That's a symbolic moment, you know, removing a Ralph Lauren suit and a Wimbledon tie.

Boris Becker (45:00)

Correct.

Host 2 (45:01)

To put on your prison clothes.

Boris Becker (45:03)

Actually, you don't get your prison clothes then, because you're allowed to wear the clothes that you brought. So it was a Puma tracksuit I put on, but then I put on a black one because I wasn't told I'm not supposed to bring the black ones. And they say you can't wear the black. Black is for the wardens. So you have to take your blue or your orange one, whatever you had. And that's what I did. Then I had a half an hour with my legal team, who explained me the difference between concurrently and consecutively. And then I breathed, breathing a bit lighter.

Interviewer (45:36)

So before that, you thought you'd been seven years?

Boris Becker (45:38)

Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Crazy. And then they said, no, 30 months, which is bad enough, but usually they let you go after 15, which is still a year and three months. But I said, okay, where do I go? Then they go. There's two large holding prisons. One is at. AT And P. Wandsworth in the southwest, and one is in the northeast. I've forgotten the name. And so they go. So one or the other, they even didn't know that. They couldn't have known. They couldn't have known. So you have half an hour. You go, okay, 13 months, 15 months. Okay, I find a way was my mindset. But then I've never been to prison, right? I've never been to H. And P. Wansworth either. So then they put you into a larger holding cell, and there's, you know, there was three other guys already in there waiting for. Then the transportation to pick you up. You don't know where you're going. Then they put you in a car, so you don't know which person you're being taken. You hear whispers. It's either this or the other one. You know, it's either one's word or the other one, but you still don't know the reason for it. I know now is that career criminals get organized very quickly. Meaning if they know, they go a place, they have their small phones with them. Don't ask me where they keep them. And then they make a quick fall, get organized, so they get quickly sorted wherever they go. Okay? That's why you're not told in which prison they were gone. Then you go into a bus, and each bus has their own little cell. There's a small window. So you. You get an idea. Okay, you're no longer in the city. You're on a highway now. And then you. You know, I saw a sign. Oxford. Then I figured, okay, wrong, wrong.

Host 2 (47:33)

That's when you went to your second.

Boris Becker (47:35)

One, you went to Huntercombe.

Host 2 (47:36)

So you went past HMS Belfast.

Boris Becker (47:40)

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. The boat. And then because it was Friday afternoon, the drive was pretty long because of all the traffic, but you don't exactly know where you're going. And then you get to the gate of HMP Wandsworth, and then you realize where you are.

Interviewer (47:57)

So can I show you these two pictures? And I'd be interested in your reflection of them.

Boris Becker (48:02)

Yes, no, exactly. That's the first picture you have of HMB Onceworth. That's the one, yeah. And this one is in my mind. Yeah, I don't need to see this. This is in my mind. Yeah.

Interviewer (48:17)

But when did it dawn on you that this picture, that Wimbledon, where you'd made your name at 17, was just two miles away from Wandsworth?

Boris Becker (48:25)

Not immediately, but obviously once you spend a couple days and you get your bearings and you understand where you are, then you know it's a stone's throw away. I mean, it's a mile and a half or two miles away. So again, I mean, if you make this in a movie, they say this couldn't be true. On one hand, you have women's center court, you know, the greatest court in the world, the most important tournament, my favorite place. And then a mile and a half down the road, it's one of the worst places probably in the world. Yeah, I did it both.

Host 2 (49:02)

I want to read you a quote from your book about the first night at HMP Wandsworth. It's the screaming that cuts you deepest on your first night in prison. Tell us about the screaming.

Boris Becker (49:16)

Yeah. You don't know many things when you first enter prison. I mean, German prisons are different, you know, Every country has different prisons. What I've heard is HMP Wandsworth in particular is a real bad one. But you don't know that, fortunately. So you get into prison, they make a picture, because then they give you a little badge which you have around your neck, so you're no longer Boris Becker. You're a number.

Host 2 (49:49)

What was yours?

Boris Becker (49:50)

Mine was 8, 29, 23 EV. I think that's what it was.

Interviewer (50:00)

Yeah.

Boris Becker (50:01)

Then they. They guide you. You know, people work there. Actually, the listeners, which became very important for me. The listeners then start talking to you, and they start to explain you what's happening in. In Wadsworth. And then they guide you into a cell before that must say, I've. I've. I went to the office of the director of Wandsworth, and he explained to me what's going to happen now. So one of my Fears was naturally that I have to share my cell with someone. And he says, no, I have a single cell because I'm at risk. I said, what do you mean I'm at risk? He says, other prisoners will take advantage of you. They may know you, they know your background, you know, you have wealthy friends, you know a famous guy. So we want to protect you from the rest of the lot. I said, great. Then I asked him, of course, what about the showers? And he goes, well, just be careful. Just pick the right group of people because the shower is locked from the inside. And we all watch these movies, right? What happens in the shower? So that was my biggest fear, is that I'm going to be showering with people that take advantage of me.

Host 2 (51:22)

And the wardens don't go in there.

Boris Becker (51:24)

You lock inside the shower, so you would lot alone. And what happens in the movies is actually true. So that was my second fear. And it says, just find your group. Find your group that you feel safe with taking a shower. And that's pretty. Pretty much it. And the listeners take you. They took me in one cell and it was Friday evening, and it's really smaller. I mean, it's. Whoever. Whoever says prison is easy is lying. You know, it's supposed to be punishment, supposed to be difficult is really difficult, right? So the cell is very small. And, you know, it was a very small tv, probably the smallest I've ever had in my life. But thankfully There was a TV. The programs were the BBC, ITV, Channel 4, and there was a movie channel, which I thought was nice up until I found out that they had about the same 20 movies on a loop. So I've been watching Rambo 3 and all the Schwarzenegger movies, I think 50 times at the end of it. But it was better than staring at the wall, right? And then I was just about to. To make my bed and, you know, make myself comfortable and just, you know, you know, accept it. Well, what are you gonna do? Then they came in. The listener says, no, no, this cell is needed because I was on the bottom floor because there's an old guy and. And he. He needs to be in the bottom floor because he doesn't walk so well anymore. So they put me on the second floor right in the middle, which was not so good because there's a little. There's a little look at the door, which you can close and which the wardens look in. And if they want to tell you something. Mine was broken. It was open. That's why I heard the screams much more. And so I had to spend the first week or so in that really terrible cell with the Luke open. My first cell had a single bed. The second one had a bunk, but because the door was open, I put the clothes that I have on the top bunk just to have a little bit of privacy. Because there's a thing that the first couple of days all the prisoners always check out the newbies. And so they were looking inside the whole time and asking me if I want this, if I want that. So it's crazy.

Host 2 (53:46)

What did you do? Because, like, do you speak to them? Do you not?

Host 1 (53:49)

Do you?

Host 2 (53:49)

Because they can smell fear.

Boris Becker (53:51)

Yeah, yeah, of course, of course. Well, at first. And I was unlucky. There is that because there was a holiday on the Monday, I was in that cell about 22 hours a day. A day. I was only let out from 11 to 12 to grab my lunch and then out between 4:30 and 5:15. That was it. The rest I was inside that little hole. And the first I remember on the Saturday, you know, you go out and you're really scared. I mean, then you're really scared.

Host 2 (54:24)

Explain that fear to us.

Boris Becker (54:26)

You are in a complete unknown environment. You know, everyone is a criminal. You don't know what they've done. But then you quickly realize, you know, there's murderers, there's pedophiles, there's drug dealers, there's people smugglers, the worst lot you can imagine. And they look like it. They look like it. I was probably the only one that didn't have a tattoo, right? And then you go and you stay at the servery and with your little plate and you look to the floor, you don't look anybody in the eye because you're afraid. The listener spotted me and they came around to protect me a little bit. And they go, well, don't deal with these people and don't look at them. And there's another listener in the kitchen. His name is Mo. When you get there, talk to him. He's going to tell you what you can eat and what you shouldn't. Because the food is horrendous. I mean, don't understand in 2022 we have so much food in the UK, in London, why they serve the type of food? I mean, normally you can't eat that on purpose. I don't know why. I don't know why. Maybe they don't care. Maybe they don't care.

Host 2 (55:35)

How would you describe a meal?

Boris Becker (55:37)

Well, you see a sausage, but it's raw or it's too brown or you see, you know, Usually you end up with a bit of mashed potato, a bit of rice and yeah, that's it. I mean, can't even describe it, the type of food you get there, but you're so hungry you eat it anyway after, right? You have real hunger, real hunger. But the first, and I was speaking to Mo and he said, well, don't do this, don't do this and if you eat fast, come back, I'll give you the second lot. Normally you're not allowed. So I felt for the first time hunger. I was the first weekend, you know, I didn't come back. I had only one, one round. So I had a bit of food for lunch on Saturday, a bit of dinner and then like Saturday evening, Sunday evening at 8, you know, you want to grab a sandwich or you want an apple or you want something. I didn't have that. So I was really feeling hungry probably for the first time in my life. The problem was all this didn't change until Tuesday because of a bank holiday. So Saturday, Sunday, Monday were the same, 22 hours out for lunch and dinner and then only on Tuesday they let you out about 10, 10 ish. Because I didn't have a job yet. So what I found out that you, you need a job or two. And then the listeners, on that Tuesday, the listeners started talking to me about you need a job, we can help you find a job. They explained to you the system that you get about £15 a week and out of £15 you have to pay for your food that you eventually can order on the canteen and calls and usually would do, you know, 50, 50, so about 8 pounds for the food and about 7 pounds for calls. That's all you have up until you get a job. And per job you get about a pound a day. So if you work five days a week, you get five extra pounds. I ended up having two jobs, so I got 10 plus the 15 with 25 to 30 pounds you can get by in prison because you can buy enough food then and have the calls. But until you get there, until you are enhanced, until you get the job, it takes forever. But on that Tuesday I was lucky again the listeners me to say, well, on Wednesday there's a job available. How good is your English? I said, all right, how good is your math? All right, well there's a job available as an English and math teacher and you can be the assistant of the main teacher. I said, I'll take it. It doesn't matter what it is, I'll take it. So from Wednesday onwards I was Teaching English and math in the mornings and in the afternoons. And I did that my whole time in Wandsworth, which was about four weeks. So then even though it was so bad, I had the listeners around, I had a job, I had a bit of structure then it was okay, actually. He was okay.

Interviewer (58:29)

Would you tell us about the listeners?

Boris Becker (58:31)

They are criminals. As a listener is a criminal, usually a long termer, meaning five years or more, but trustworthy by the wardens. Because prison is not run by the wardens, it's run by the prisoners. I mean, I'll give you an example. In Wandsworth you have about 2,000 prisoners and 70 wardens. They have no chance. So they have to pick the most important prisoners, the most trustworthy prisoners, who then deal with the dangerous prisoners or with the newbies. Explaining me a little bit the whereabouts of prison. And they really looked after me. I mean, I wouldn't have survived it without them. And I'm still in contact with a couple, you know, and they then tell you, okay, you get a job, stay away from that group. He's all right, Mo's good in the survey and so forth. And so they build you your infrastructure where you survive with, including the visits. Now you have no idea what you have to do to tell anybody who's supposed to come next week. So they told me, listen, there's a document and that's where you can pencil in on which date your, your girl or your son, whoever wants to come. So that actually happened on that first Thursday. So the first Thursday I was able to, you know, before that call my partner and say, listen on Thursday. But you have to call HMP Wandsworth because you have to tell them who you are, when you want to come and so forth.

Host 2 (60:05)

Like Lillian had to call.

Boris Becker (60:06)

Lillian had to call. Right. I could, I just said so.

Host 2 (60:09)

You're totally out of control here.

Boris Becker (60:11)

Totally out of control. You know nothing. You know nothing that is, you know, for a control freak like me, that's really difficult to deal with.

Interviewer (60:23)

What would you say was the biggest shock?

Boris Becker (60:27)

Well, the biggest shock still today is that how dangerous prison is, that if you're with the wrong lot, I mean, people today get killed in prison. There's a large number of deaths that we don't even know about. People can get really badly hurt. And at the end of the year you say a couple of names are missing, but because you're a prisoner, you lose all your rights. You're nobody. Your number, actually, I said that before your number. So that's the most scary part of that type of Prison.

Host 2 (61:02)

But you're Boris Becker.

Boris Becker (61:03)

Not in prison. Not in prison. Which worked in my favor because a lot of prisoners didn't know me, didn't know tennis, you know, weren't interested. So that actually saved me a bit if that. They didn't know that. Of course I know people of power and money so easily. They could have taken advantage of the fact that this newbie, he has a couple listeners, but we, a lot are much bigger. We can take advantage of the famous Boris Becker.

Host 2 (61:34)

Was it strangely liberating that, as we've already discussed, fame was one of the big reasons you ended up in this prison and suddenly fame had no currency. You could almost reinvent who you were.

Boris Becker (61:45)

It was liberating. I've slept out of exhaustion and frustration. Not the first couple of nights because of the streams, but after a week or so I was so tired, but I was liberated, that there was no role to play, there was no responsibility. It was just survival. And I don't mind that. I realized then that I can do that until now I'm liberated of that.

Host 2 (62:12)

And did you work out a tactic for survival? Because I'm thinking you're now 57, this is 2020, so you're in 54, you're in your early 50s, you carry injuries from your tennis career and there's 21, 22 year old, very strong, very physically capable, dangerous men sharing that building with you. Did you have a plan for what you would do if things went wrong?

Boris Becker (62:39)

I certainly couldn't fight them physically, yeah, but my, my brain and my heart are very good. So I was able to use my heart and my brain to have some sort of influence with the dangerous ones. Becoming a math and becoming an English teacher at first gives me access to a lot of prisoners. And most of them unfortunately are not educated. Most of them can't count. So helping them in the classes, just befriending them, you start to gain trust with them. And then I talk a little bit of what they're in for and what they've done and so forth. And then you start to have a different power than a physical one. And then also quickly, the listeners is a very powerful group. If you're close with the listeners, they are very important in prison to the point of almost running prison. They know which wardens are bad, which wardens are good, but they also know which prisoners are dangerous. So they're sort of in between. And if you hang with them, that gives you a lot of respect. Prison is all about respect. If they respect you, you're safe. If they don't respect you. They take advantage. So I was trying to be with the tough boys, the listeners, the people that were in power, even though they were prisoners.

Interviewer (64:12)

What techniques did you use to be able to establish a sense of respect from them?

Boris Becker (64:17)

Used my personality, used my character. Just talking to one another, you know, we're talking now. So you give me enough time with you, you either run away or you end up probably liking me. Right. So. So that's the thing. I was able to show very humble humans. I was able to show me. Right, Right. I'm not a bad guy. Right. And. And we are in this thing together. So you help me, I help you. If. If you can't read the letter, I'll read it for you. If you can't spell the words, I write the letter for you. You can't talk to authorities. I speak to authorities all the time. So you help each other, and then you start to have a really strong bond with each other.

Host 2 (64:57)

So here's a question then. If you weren't one of the world's greatest tennis players, would you have had the skills to survive in prison? Or do you think your sporting career helped you in this?

Boris Becker (65:09)

I probably wouldn't have survived prison if I weren't a gifted tennis player. Tennis is a very difficult sport. You're on your own. You have to deal with tough players, crowds, weather, scheduling and all that. So if you can't overcome these situations, most players can't, by the way. Most players can't today, cannot. I probably wouldn't have survived prison. So the qualities I talk about stoicism, I talk about character, personality, this survival instinct in that fifth set, that survival instinct of coming back at 18, winning, this mindset that some call maniac or crazy. I probably am, but otherwise I wouldn't have done what I've done. And I think that played in my favor.

Interviewer (66:00)

And what would you say was the biggest characteristic, though, that is transferable from Centre Court to the prison?

Boris Becker (66:09)

You have to look after your own. In that planet's match, you're the one that decides to serve. The forehand, the backhand. You're the one decides when to get up, what to eat, what to wear. You are very, very independent. We were, anyway, in the 80s and 90s. I think players are more depending now, but in the 80s and 90s, we were, you know, we were a bit wild. I mean, talk about Bork and McEnroe and Connors and Landel and all these characters. We were a little crazy, but that set us apart, I think, from the Rest.

Host 2 (66:42)

You write in your book about prison crack. I think for people who've never been in prison, they think, well, of course there's no alcohol in prison because it's prison. Of course there's no mobile phones because you're incarcerated. Of course there's no drugs because you can't get the drugs in there. What's the truth?

Boris Becker (66:59)

Whatever you want, you get in prison. Literally whatever you want. Depends how organized you are, how much you want to pay for. You can get, I wouldn't say a first class menu, but talking about drugs, for example, the most popular drug in prison is called Spice. I didn't know that you can get through help. I don't want to claim now it's the wardens, and I don't want to claim it's someone else. But if you pay enough money, you get almost what you want, including phones. You get the little phones and you're able to hide it in your backside. Right. I mean, it's all happening. So depending what you're willing to pay, you can get a lot of things in prison.

Host 2 (67:50)

What was it like seeing people so close to you taking drugs, drinking alcohol in this kind of confined environment? What was the impact of those people that were taking what you call prison crack?

Boris Becker (68:03)

Well, you would stay away. I mean, you quickly find your group.

Host 2 (68:06)

Yeah.

Boris Becker (68:07)

And mine wasn't dealing in that.

Host 2 (68:09)

And how would you know that they're on Spice?

Boris Becker (68:12)

Because the listeners would tell me all that I wouldn't know. I think they're, you know, I obviously see they're drunk, obviously they're high, but you don't know. How is it possible? How could they get this in prison? Right. I mean, it's the first question you have. And then the listeners tell me, boris, you have no idea what's happening in here. You can literally get almost anything depending how much you're willing to pay. Not in prison, but someone knows somebody outside and that a person outside gets paid. And then someone organizes whichever way they do it to get to the prisoner. It's really.

Host 2 (68:47)

But you're thinking in that situation, if you can get drugs, you can do anything. You can kill me, you can rape me, you can attack me.

Boris Becker (68:55)

It's a lawless place. It's a lawless place. Anything can happen. That's the most scary part for me, Dan, and in hindsight is how danger.

Host 2 (69:05)

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Host 1 (70:08)

A risk taker?

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Interviewer (72:47)

So what were your coping strategies to be able to handle such uncertainty, such danger?

Boris Becker (72:54)

Stay with the right group, honestly, and then really be careful not to step out of place. You know, you can't brag. You can't tell too many of your stories where you're from. You can't tell anything about your loved ones. You have to. To be really, really selective in who you're talking to and which topics you're talking about. You have to really be careful. And at first, you really want to get out of your cell. I mean, that's 22 hours in a little hole is really difficult. At the end of my prison term, there was my safe place at the end of Huntercombe. I couldn't wait to get back into my cell because I was safe.

Host 2 (73:36)

So you mentioned Huntercombe Prison. So you were told by your legal representatives, correct me if I'm wrong, that you would spend some time being processed in Wandsworth for a few weeks, then go to an open prison. You can see Lillian, your partner. You can spend evenings at home.

Boris Becker (73:52)

Yeah. And what happened that didn't happen because I don't have a British passport. I have a German one. So in about two weeks in Wandsworth, I have to go to the authorities and, you know, passport and everything, and then go, well, you don't have a bridge passport. I said, no. Well, then you have to go into a foreign national prison. I said, what is that? Well, this is for people that don't have a British passport who want to stay in the uk and this is where you'll go. I said, but that's wrong. I was told that after a couple weeks in Wandsworth, I go to an open prison because obviously my crime isn't as dangerous and isn't as bad. They say, well, you were told wrong. And what do you do? You can't believe it at first and you're getting worried a little bit that what else is wrong? That I was told. And that's when you. You get careful who you talk to. And then, you know, then we start, I mean, my wife, now partner, then, then we started really talking about, okay, what happens in a foreign national prison? You know, what does that mean? And then she gets. She gets information from the outside. I try to get information from the inside about what that is. And then pretty quickly it was clear that because I don't have a British passport, I have to go to a prison for foreign nationals.

Host 2 (75:27)

How would you describe Huntercombe Prison?

Boris Becker (75:30)

Huntercombe Prison, on the surface wasn't as bad. The building was a bit more modern, more like in the 70s. The ceilings were lower. But you had the same criminals, so on the surface it was okay. But then you had your murderers and your pedophiles, and whoever was in Wadsworth who was not British had to go to a foreign national prison. One of them was my luck. There was that quickly one of the main wardens there, there was a guy called Andy Small to a point where he almost saved my life. He very powerful personality, but he was responsible and his team for the gym, which is the most important class for the gym and for the story class. And he quickly told me, listen, naturally, first of all, I know who you are. So you the more qualified than anybody else to work in the gym because you actually know what you're doing. So as soon as you're enhanced, I, I give you the job in the gym.

Host 2 (76:44)

What does enhanced mean?

Boris Becker (76:45)

Enhanced means that even though I was enhanced in Wandsworth, becoming a teacher, that was unusual, right? The listeners helped me so much. I didn't have the listeners in Hunter Kum. I had nobody. So the normal process is it takes four to six weeks to be allowed to find a job.

Host 2 (77:06)

And again, this is like prison rules. This is the kind of the prisoners deciding if you are enhanced or not.

Boris Becker (77:13)

Yes.

Host 2 (77:13)

The constant fight for hierarchy in prison.

Boris Becker (77:16)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But at first, as a newbie, you're nobody, right? And they don't care that you've served time already. They say every prison has their own prison rules. So in Huntercombe, I was not enhanced. So Instead of the three or four days I was in my room for 22 hours, for five weeks was an absolute nightmare. And that's why Handerkom was probably worse for me. Because in Wandsworth, I quickly had the listeners, quickly had a job, quickly was out of the cell in the morning, the afternoon. In Handerkom, it dragged on forever. And nothing Andy Small could do or anybody else because the, you know, the main guys went, okay, those are the rules. You're just a number. And you have to stay between four to six weeks until you enhanced and then you can start your job and.

Interviewer (78:08)

Tell us about some of those characters that you did meet in Hunsakom.

Boris Becker (78:13)

Because it was four nationals. Of course, you had all nationalities. So the most powerful group in Hunter Kulm were the Romanians. Again, strong group of people, very dangerous. And they controlled the upstairs. Just Hantekum has to floor. Once were this much bigger building. They control the upstairs with the wardens. So I befriended them because I knew a couple Romanians. I mean, they knew Tyriac, they knew Nastase, they knew Simona Halep. So my bond was. Yeah. And I. I speak a couple words of Romanian. So very quickly I bonded with them. And the reason, and another, another strong group is the Albanians. So Romanians, Albanians, Muslims. Religion is very important. Prison. Which, which faith you have, which God you believe in. A lot of Muslims, a lot of Christians. Very few Jews I've met in Hantakom. I remember one in Wandsworth, I don't remember one. So a lot of Christians, a lot of Muslims, a lot of Africans. I think those were the three biggest groups, the Romanians, the Albanians and the Muslims. And then you find a way to get along. Yeah.

Host 2 (79:39)

You met a man called Zach.

Boris Becker (79:41)

Yeah.

Host 2 (79:42)

And the story around this guy in the book is remarkable. Would you mind telling that story for people?

Boris Becker (79:49)

Yeah, I have to though, explain a little bit. So after my five weeks be enhanced, I started working in the gym, which was, you know, liberating. I had work to do in the morning, work to do in the afternoon. And then life became a little easier because I was enhanced. They put me from the upstairs to the downstairs. And next to my cell was a guy called Ike. He was living in Hamburg, but he was originally from. From Nigeria, from Lagos. And he was a heavy duty drug dealer. He spent a lot of time in Belmarsh. And on my left was an Indian guy, a Sri Lankan guy called Shuggie. He was also a Belmarsh, you know, both long termers. Sugie's Crime were gang related. They became my, what should I say, my security. They became the people that I hung out with, especially Ike. Ike was a physically very strong guy. Anywhere I did, I walked with them with those two.

Host 2 (80:56)

What did they get out of that relationship?

Boris Becker (80:58)

Ike, for example, speaks fluent German. He knows. He knew my first wife, Barbara. My first son is called Noah. So it's. His first son is called Noah. And he just had a lot of respect that I've picked a black woman as my wife. So I got a lot of respect from all the black prisoners because my wife is black and my kids are mixed raised. It's again, about respect. So Ike was doing the laundry, which was an important job because in the laundry you could speak freely. You must remember wherever you go, there's microphones, there's cameras. When you pick up your phone, you speak to loved ones. You're listened to, you hear it, and you were told, so don't tell anything you don't want the world to know. So even on your phone calls, but in the laundry room, because it was noisy, they couldn't listen. So then Ike sort of became my listener with Ike and Chuggy. And they told me the facts of life in Handerkom. And I know afterwards that Andy Small on purpose put me downstairs between Ike and Bikhun Shuggi because he knew they were good people even though they were prisoners. I didn't know it then, but know it now. And so we became very close. What did he get out of it? Well, Ike was in for 12 and a half years. He trusted me. He told me things about his life that I'm not going to share with you. I was sort of his shining light. I gave him motivation, I gave him hope. He wanted to go back to Germany as well. So I gave him a couple of speeches about, you know, he shouldn't give up and, you know, things like that. In a way, I became his coach. And Shuggie was a man of faith. And so we started going to the church service every Sunday together. And we started praying and reading from the Bible and all that. So Shuggie trusted me because I was also a man of faith. And so that was our base where we trusted each other. Shuggie even became my barber. Now, don't ask me how. He had a knife and he could cut my hair and beard, but he did cut my hair and he did cut my beard. Now he's a prisoner, right? He's a criminal. There's other things you can do with that knife or a little scissor yet. So you trust each other a hundred percent? Hundred percent. You have to. And one afternoon, I had food on my plate to the survey. And what you don't do in prison, you don't go to another prison's cell to a stranger. You just don't do that is your safe place. This is where you have your belongings and your stuff, whatever. You're not even allowed to go into somebody else's cell when they're inside. I mean, you do it eventually, but you're not supposed to. But certainly don't go into another man's cell by your own. So this guy next to my cell was Ixl. So this guy was in Ike cell. So I looked. Zach. Zach was the guy. So I felt a bit. Bit protective of Ike and asked, what are you doing in Excel? And then he turned around, he just started barking at me. You know, who are you? And I go, well, my name is Boris. I'm next to Ike. I know Nick over the last six months. So this is not your cell. What are you doing is sell. And then he started being aggressive, you know, swearing at me and. And. And really facing at me.

Host 2 (84:31)

What are you thinking at this point?

Boris Becker (84:33)

I'm thinking, he's about to hurt me. He's about to hurt me. So we went into. He went out of the cell. I walked backwards out, and he faced me, and he started screaming at me. And very quickly, because of my. Thankfully, it was late in my hunger Hunter Kumsuke, because of the relationship I built with all the other prisoners on my floor, they came all out of their cell.

Host 2 (84:55)

What was Zach saying to you?

Boris Becker (84:58)

I'm gonna beat the shit out of you. I'm gonna kill you. I'm gonna slice your throat. I'm gonna do this and that. And he's a meter in front of me. I mean, he's a big guy, big African guy.

Host 2 (85:06)

How scared were you?

Boris Becker (85:08)

Very scared. Very scared. But I had my tray, thankfully, in between. So I felt like if he starts touching me, I can do something with the tray. I don't know.

Host 2 (85:17)

I'm sorry.

Boris Becker (85:18)

Yeah, I'm not sure the tray would.

Host 1 (85:20)

Have saved your life.

Boris Becker (85:21)

I mean, he would have come closer to me if I didn't have the tray. Right. I had the train front, but very quickly, all the guys of the cell behind me, in front of me came out. And then they started talking to Zach, and they just told me, just go back in the cell. We take care of that.

Host 2 (85:38)

How did that feel?

Boris Becker (85:40)

I was still scared, but I heard a few screams. I heard a few noises. And then, you know, Ike is running back at me. I say, boris. Boris, Boris. Zach will apologize. What? He's done. I said, zach, just relax. I'm happy. I'm here. I don't want. No, no, no. Prison rules. Zach has to apologize. He threatened you. He'll pay a price. And then a couple days later. Couple days later, prison rules. Yeah. A couple days later, Ike asked me to come into the laundry, and he says, yeah, Zach is there. He wants to apologize. I said, no, Zach, no, leave me. Just leave me. I don't wanna. No, no, you have to come. He will apologize. So I go into the laundry room. Zach sees me. He falls to his knees, kisses my hand. I get embarrassed. I get. Get up, get up, get up. No, no, no. I apologize about. No, no, get up. So I gave him a long hug. I told him, who am I to tell you what to do, right? No, no. But I didn't know, you know, you would suck. I disrespected you. Please take my apologies. And I go, okay. We're absolutely fine. You know, no hard feelings. And Ike, you know, thanks, but it wasn't necessary. I ended up playing chess with this guy because he was a very good chess player. But I was always a bit afraid because he was. They stay. There's a time when prison never leaves you, even though you're able to go out of prison. They could say after seven to eight to nine years, if you spend that much time in prison, that prison mentality will never leave you. He was already in there for 17 years, so he had a mental issue. He was wearing a soft hat over his head because he was complaining that his brain hurts. So he was borderline because prison got to him. He was a normal, healthy young man who went in there. He was 18. He killed two people. And when I met him was 35. So he was in there already for 17 years. He spent time in Belmarsh. And I feel sorry for him, so I was embarrassed in the laundry.

Host 2 (87:57)

That's interesting, though, even you talking about feeling sorry for him.

Boris Becker (88:00)

It's like he killed two people. I know.

Host 2 (88:02)

Yeah, but you're. You're in a position where you're seeing the human behind the criminal here. It must have been a very interesting time for your understanding of human nature and human beings.

Boris Becker (88:11)

Yeah. Look, you. You. We all very judgmental, all of us, every day, we judge people because they're white, they're black, they're big, they're small, they're thick, they're thin, they have hair. They have no hair. And you you can't be judgmental inside because you're one of. One of many. You're a prisoner. Of course you don't accept their crimes, but you're not judgmental. We're all people. We fuck up. We make mistakes. Some of us are caught. Not everybody's caught. We make mistakes. And in order to survive prison, you can't think that you're better than anybody else. It's about acceptance. It's about dealing with your own situation the best you can. In prison, you need one another. And I can't judge a person's crime. He's been already judged. He's been already serving 15 years. I'm not going to be his judge, nor will be he my judge. And I've learned that quickly. And it. It worked for me. It worked for me. And, yeah, it's a. It's a different world.

Interviewer (89:25)

But a lot of how you're describing that, Boris, sounds like the teachings of Stoicism. Tell us, what is it about Stoicism that struck a chord with you?

Boris Becker (89:36)

Well, it's. First of all, it's not a religion, it's a philosophy. It's very important. It was created by one of the greatest Roman leaders called Marcus Aurelius. At the time, he was probably Trump and Putin combined. He was the main politician in the world with the great Roman Empire. And he had. Of course, he had slaves. And his most popular slave was a guy called Epictetus. Now, Marcus Aurelius was always miserable, was always in bad moods. He was not in a balance. And this slave of him, Epictetus, he was always smiling. He was always in good moods. And I said, epictetus, I'm the most powerful man in the world. I have everything. You have nothing. And you seem to be in better moods than I am. How is that possible? That was the beginning of Stoicism. It's very much about, you know, living today to its fullest. You know, we certainly can't change the past, and we don't know what in the future. And also, it teaches you that the only thing you can control in your life is not your wife, is not your kids, is not your parents. It's not your job. It's your own thoughts. If you control your own thoughts, you become a better man. And Epictetus was controlling his own thoughts, and Marcus Aurelio wasn't. And that's ultimately the most important message of today for everybody, is that we're not in control of nobody else, but of our own thoughts. And in prison, you're so much alone. You're so much in your mind, in your thoughts, that you better make him nice. You know, you better make that space inside your head, you better make that beautiful, because otherwise it will eat you up alive.

Interviewer (91:26)

So can you give us an example then? Like after that incident with Zach where you go back in your room and you've been threatened. What were you saying to yourself that could make it more tolerable?

Boris Becker (91:38)

I went back and I was shaking. I was visibly shaking. I was a bit upset with me that I put myself in a situation that was dangerous. It shouldn't have been my business to check in Ike's room whether there's Zach or anybody else. But I felt protective of Ike. But it was ultimately my mistake. You know, you always look as a stoic. You look at your own mistakes. You know, I'm responsible for my life. You're not responsible. I'm responsible for my actions, for the good and the bad ones. So when I was a student in Hunter Kom and Andy Small with a teacher, I heard a lot of sayings that I was telling myself as a tennis player, you know, living in the moment about pressure, about expectations, about how you value things. Money for good or for bad was never important to me. I didn't play tennis for money to a fault, unfortunately. We charge ourselves a lot. The guy is rich. That's why he's a good guy. And the guy is poor because he's a bad guy. That's wrong. So I've learned to take responsibility for my actions. And as a player, that reminded me a lot of how I played and why I played. I wanted to win. I wanted to be the best. Whether I got that paycheck or not, it didn't make a difference. I lost that philosophy after my career, I became too complacent. I became too comfortable. I liked what everybody else liked. I became like everybody else. And so I lost my path a little bit. I lost my way of who am I? So when I went back to the classes, I realized that that's exactly what happened to me and why the mistakes I've done, because I lost my path. I took a wrong turn, did so many things that were not like me. My character, my personality is different. And I rediscovered my personality in the stoicism classes. I ultimately, I became a teacher on stoicism, and I told the criminals the same things. What we'll be discussing now is that give you an example. So you're the third time as a drug dealer caught. You either very bad at it or you like prison. And they Go. What do you mean? I said just think of the money you couldn't make for all the years you were in Huntercomb. So either you become a better drug dealer and don't get caught, but chances are you will. So you're going to be here the fourth and fifth time. And all the time you spend in here, you can't even use your money that you stole. That makes sense. With them or, you know, we all have emotions, we all have frustrations, everything. If you start beating up people because of that, you're going to be caught. And if you beat up somebody really badly, you're going to be caught and have to go to prison. Is it worth it? Or is it about controlling your anger a little bit longer? Find a different outlet, because what you do will get you caught. And it doesn't go in there the first time, the second time. But eventually you start to build a relationship of saying, okay, prison life, it's not worth it. Find a way to stay out of it.

Host 2 (94:57)

You're talking to a fellow stoic here. I have memento mori, okay, tattooed on my inside wrist, which, as you will know, is remember that you're dying. So really, none of this actually matters too much. There's another great stoic phrase, which is amor fati. Accept your fate.

Boris Becker (95:14)

Yeah.

Host 2 (95:14)

Don't fight the things that have happened to you. For people who struggle with amor fati, for people who spend too much time in their own heads, for people who feel like the victim too often. For people who spend their lives blaming others for the things that have happened to them. As a now a teacher, not just a student of stoicism, what would you like those people to hear?

Boris Becker (95:36)

You know, we. We eventually. I mean, you said it. We eventually are going to be all gone. Right? We're going to be old. We're going to be. You know, hopefully we get old and we die, and then what's. What's left? What's remembered? So, you know, you got to make the most of it while we can. Well, we can make a difference. Especially when you have children, you want to obviously teach them the rights and the wrongs and don't waste your time on unnecessary things. We waste so much time on social media. We waste too much time on television. We waste so much time in real bullshit. Eventually that time is gone. So what I'm trying to do is with the days and the weeks and the month that I have, is that not waste my time anymore. I learned to appreciate time again. You know, when time is taken away from you, when freedom is Taken away from you when you sitting in a shithole of a cell and the only thing you have is your mind. You're going to be more appreciative once you have a little bit more again. My mind saved me. My mind is saving me now. And there's only a couple of people that allow into my inner circle now. I'm very protective. My wife is very protective because I don't want to waste time anymore. I've wasted enough time in my life with the wrong people. So I'm really careful in who I talk to, who I have dinner with, who I drink with. Very, very careful.

Host 2 (97:08)

Can I ask you one question about Andy? Andy Small, who ran the GM and had the stoic quotes on the wall. You started this by saying Andy Small virtually saved my life. How do you mean?

Boris Becker (97:21)

Yeah. Without his supervision, without his guidance, without his protection, Hunter Combe would have been very different. You know, he quickly realized that he could help me. I was open for it. He in that regard, it helped that I won Wimbledon, otherwise he wouldn't have known me. He quickly realized that I could be important for him as well because I could deal also with prisoners in a way he couldn't. He wants me to continue the ston classes in Germany. We were going around the world already a couple times and in preaching stoises to whoever wants to listen to us. So he became a really close friend of mine. And yeah, if you wouldn't have put Shuggie and Ike next to me to protect me, Zach probably would have hurt me. If he wouldn't have invited me into a stoic class and made me a teacher, I wouldn't have discovered it the way I have. So he's very much responsible for me being the way I am today.

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Interviewer (99:00)

Can I ask you. You said that you've become very selective about the people in your inner circle. Can I ask you about the role of Novak Djokovic then?

Boris Becker (99:08)

When you're in prison, it Was unexpected. That. And I told you I was able to see the BBC, right. So I was able to see Queens and Wimbledon. I didn't expect Sue Barker, John McEnroe, Andrew Castle to have a nice shout out to say, boris, we miss you. Stay strong. This is very important. Means a lot when you lose everything. And Novak was the defending champion and they always go for a first press conference. And he was really praising me about what a great guy I am and also giving me strength and giving me support and if that you're talking about best player in the world and so forth, that echoes a lot throughout the whole world. So for him to help me overcoming a very difficult situation, I will never forget, of course. So, yeah, good things did happen. You know, I didn't expect it from Novak. I didn't expect it from sue and the others. You know, when you. And it's a cliche and we usually hear rhythm, we don't listen to it. Only when you're in a difficulty, in a tough moment, you really find out who you're with, who's not with you. You know, your real friends, you all have, you know, I'm not the one that wants everybody to go to prison to find out who your real friends are. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that you just have a very small group of people that care about you. And in my most difficult times, I know today who were my friends and who was not.

Host 2 (100:39)

How many friends just melted away when you got sentenced?

Boris Becker (100:42)

95%.

Host 1 (100:44)

Really?

Boris Becker (100:45)

Yeah, yeah. It's just I'm a whole new circle of friends. And yeah.

Host 2 (100:49)

You know, I think is really interesting about Novak Djokovic is that almost all of those friends didn't have much to lose by remaining your friend.

Boris Becker (100:57)

Right.

Host 2 (100:58)

Novak Djokovic did have a lot to lose by remaining your friend because you were convicted of a crime. The easiest thing in the world for a high profile man like him to do is go, do you know what? I'm going to protect myself. I'm not going to talk about Boris publicly. He did the total opposite. What does that tell us about Novak Djokovic that maybe we don't understand already?

Boris Becker (101:18)

Well, he's a. He has a different spirit. You know, he comes from a war torn Serbia. He overcome a lot of obstacles to be where he is today. I was able to go with him for a couple of years. We really bonded over the time. You know, we call each other family and we're very careful with that word, you know, Novak is. It's of course, you have the Federal fans and the Nadal fans, but Nowak's family story is much bigger because he comes from a very difficult country, difficult family background. And to overcome all this and win 24 majors and just laugh every record in the face is because of his spirit. It's because of his character and his personality. And last but not least, he's getting the respect he deserves. So if he plays another year or two, I think he'll be the most popular player of all time. At the moment, I think it's still Roger and Rafa, but the more, the more, I mean, he's in another semi final at the Open, and, and he says, going to play one more Wimbledon. So the more he sticks around, people start to realize who the real Novak Djokovic is.

Host 2 (102:28)

While you were coaching him, he won Wimbledon.

Boris Becker (102:31)

He won everything.

Host 2 (102:33)

And you said in your book that when you, when you did that together, you'd worked on not just his tennis, but his mentality. I'm very interested in what you did with him to create a mentality that turned him into that incredible winner.

Boris Becker (102:46)

I think the stoic came out in me is, is questioning, you know, why we go to Melbourne to hug the trees and to smell the flowers or to come home with the trophy to, you know, have reasons why we do things. Yeah. Also, technically, I told me a few things. You know, Novak was always winning, but it took him four, five hours. And the time I, I, I met him, he lost the number one ranking to Nadal because in the semifinal final, he was exhausted. So I had to find a different technique, a different style for him to win quicker. That meant closer to the baseline. He was a grinder. He was always way behind the baseline. That's why it took him four or five hours. But in order for him to play on the baseline, you have to change the technique a little bit. Everything has to be quicker. Everything has to be moving forward. And also I was able to explain to him the importance of a serve. The serve in tennis is the only shot that is not depending on the opponent. You decide how you want to serve, and if you want to serve good, you're going to win quicker and you save energy. That doesn't take a day or week. Right. It takes a while because he was winning before. But he realized that winning in two hours and being in a semi final fresh, the chances are higher for him to win. And that's exactly what happened.

Host 2 (104:12)

Where do you put him in the list of greatest tennis players of all time?

Boris Becker (104:16)

Number one, quickly, where do you Put.

Host 2 (104:19)

Boris Becker in his prime.

Boris Becker (104:22)

I'm happy if I'm in the top 10. They say I'm a top 10. I'm happy with the top 10.

Host 2 (104:29)

Yeah. So prime Djokovic beats prime Becker.

Boris Becker (104:32)

Prime Djokovic beats a prime backer. I was giving him a fight, of course. Definitely on clay, definitely on hardcore, on grass. Probably, probably would be a five setter. But look, prime Federer would also beat prime Becker, you know, prime Nadal would beat prime Becker. I'm. I'm not saying that I was as good as they were, but top 10 I'm happy with.

Interviewer (104:59)

And you spoke about helping him with his mentality. Can we ask you about another mentality? Monster? Friend of yours, Jurgen Klopp?

Boris Becker (105:06)

Yeah.

Interviewer (105:07)

He tried to visit you in Huncombe?

Boris Becker (105:10)

Yeah, I mean, I was very selective with who I wanted to visit me. Jurgen obviously was an exception. So I, I got hold of the fact that he wanted to come and I spoke to the prison director and they thought about it, but they said for security reasons, Jurgen can't come and visit you. I said, what do you mean? I said, boris, the visiting room, it's very big, you know, you have all the prisoners, dangerous one, two sitting next to each other. There's about three guards. Jurgen is a very popular and very famous guy in, in the uk. So what shall we do if a couple prisoners just take him for random. If yes, they just put their arms around their neck.

Host 2 (106:00)

Is that what they were scared of?

Boris Becker (106:01)

Yeah, yeah. Kidnapping Jurgen, klopping. That's what I mean with security reasons is that they were afraid that some of these prisoners would take advantage of such a popular and high, high profile man. And then I was able to speak to Jurgen and, and he started laughing in his typical laugh. But then we, obviously we were friends and we met afterwards. But yeah, I mean, again is another Djokovic move. Right. For Jurgen to want to visit me at my lowest speaks a lot about his character and his personality.

Interviewer (106:33)

And what support and advice did he give you when you spoke to him?

Boris Becker (106:38)

Stay strong. This is what it is. This shall pass too. You know, there's a reason you have to go through this. There's a reason you lost everything. But with your character and your personality, you will find a way back and learn from it. I started our conversation with lessons learned. Maybe I needed to go to prison. Maybe it was good for me. I was on the wrong path. I was not a happy camper in my mid-40s. I was drinking too much and eating too much and hanging with the wrong people. Maybe I Wouldn't have survived it until I'm now. So maybe it was good for me in order to go to find the real Boris Becker, to find the core again, what made me strong in the first place. And two and a half years later, I'm out. I'm married to the love of my life. We're expecting our first baby. So good things are happening right now because of, you know, because all the things I had to go through, probably.

Host 2 (107:41)

What do you think when you see that photograph?

Boris Becker (107:45)

Yeah, that's. That's Lillian. That's right. God blessed me with a very special person. You know, we met already a while ago in 2018 by accident. A friend's, an Italian friend of mine in Frankfurt. He had a birthday, he turned 50. His name is Michele and she was his friend as well. So that's when I spotted her for the first time. And I knew then she was friends with Michele and his wife. And 2018, I was in trouble. I was insolvent. I was not in a good state at all. So I meet her and I thought she was very interesting. And I ended up going back to Frankfurt every couple of weeks to meet her and everything. But she didn't want to meet me alone. She said, I didn't know you first, but I googled you, you sound like trouble, so I stay away from you. I said, probably. Good advice. And so she would only meet me if there's Michaela and his wife, if there's a bigger group. So we meet for lunch and dinner. But I'm persistent, you know, when I want something, I'm very persistent. So it took me 10 months just to get her number. 10 months. And as a former hunter and collector, that's by far the longest it took me to ever get a girl's number. Right. And then it's that first phone call. That first phone call.

Host 2 (109:21)

I love that you describe yourself as a hunter and a collector.

Boris Becker (109:24)

Back in the days when I was young and wild. Yeah. And it, it, yeah. And that is that first phone call, whether, whether, you know, we all have done that very first phone call, whether it clicks or it doesn't click, and it clicked. And she was, she was in Brazil in the holidays. And then, you know, she came back and, you know, and, and we're, we're a couple ever, ever since that, that comeback. And, and, but again, obviously, it was a very difficult time for us. So when I got incarcerated, and it's this three week stretch that I spoke earlier, from the 8th of April 22nd to 29th, I knew that there's a good chance that I have to go to prison. I sat her down. I said, listen, you're young, you're beautiful, you're educated. You don't have to wait. You don't have to wait for me. I don't know if I'm in for two years, five years, seven years. Just. Just live your life and that's it. She looked at me, said, no, of course I want to wait for you. I said, that came out of instinct. That came too quick. I don't believe you. You have two weeks now to think about it. Speak to your parents, speak to your friends. Don't wait for me. And she almost. When I started again the conversation, she almost felt insulted of saying, how dare you question my decision? We are a team and we're going to do this together. Now, very clearly, she was the only contact I had inside in my phone calls. I wasn't speaking to anybody else. Yes, I spoke to Noah once or twice. I spoke to my daughter. I spoke. But she was in total charge of my family, of my whereabouts, of my legal issues, everything. Without her, I wouldn't have survived it the way I did again. Maybe I had to go through all the shit that I had to go through to meet this angel. And naturally, I came out, asked her to be my wife, and she thankfully said yes. We're having our first baby together in December. So at the end of it all, the difficulties, in my 40s, I'm meeting this woman who is. I hate to say this, but she is clearly the only boss I have in my life. Okay.

Host 2 (111:45)

There's a story in the book where she gets a phone call from the landlady of the. The flat that she's living in while you're in prison and gets told to leave.

Boris Becker (111:54)

Yeah.

Host 2 (111:55)

Because the amount of paparazzi outside the flat because of you is too much. And I just had this image in my head of a woman that you've known for a while, but who's been with you when you're insolvent, been with you when you're not very happy, been with you when you've been sent to prison, is with you when, because of you, she gets evicted from her flat because of the fuss around being Boris Becker's partner, and still she sticks around.

Boris Becker (112:19)

Yeah.

Host 2 (112:19)

And I just. I started this book thinking it was a story about being in prison. And actually, I finished the book thinking maybe this book is actually a love story.

Boris Becker (112:29)

Very clearly, without her, I wouldn't be the man I am today. That I found relatively late in life, such A woman is, you know, I'm blessed, I'm lucky. I didn't expect that. You know, there's no reason for her to stick around other than she must like my personality, my character, because I had nothing else when I met her. She gets evicted from the flat and has to find a new flat because of the, the fame and the paparazzi and the turmoil that I caused in the media and our relationship, even though she's a very private person. So, yeah, fast forward. Look, you know, things happen for a reason. You know, things happen for a reason. The good ones and the bad ones. And my. My lesson learned is then I've done a few great things in my life, you know, tennis wise and a lot of my kids and everything. But I've done a few bad things. I've done a few mistakes, clearly, and I emphasize that it's my responsibility for the good and the bad. I think I've turned the corner. I wouldn't have been motivated to turn the corner if I wouldn't have met her either. That's important. A man. I was 50 when I met her. I was asking myself, maybe I'm not made for relationships. Maybe it's me. Maybe I can't deal with a woman every day. Maybe a woman can't deal with me every day. Maybe it's me. So you get a little bit, you know, complacent, you lose motivation to look after. You say it's not worth it anyway. And then I meet this woman. So my headline for this, for my thing, is that God gives his toughest struggles to his best soldiers.

Interviewer (114:19)

And you're about to become a father again. What will you do differently this time?

Boris Becker (114:24)

Well, I spent more time, you know, when I had my first child, Noah, I was still playing and traveling the circuit. So naturally you're on the road a lot. In general, you know, time is very precious for me. Right. I want to spend a lot more time with the people I love. That includes my four older kids and that definitely include our, you know, our new arrival. Just, again, big responsibility, you know, I'm going to be 58, I think, when our baby comes. So I want to stay around longer. I want to be healthy. I'm going to drink less, I'm going to eat better, I'm going to do more sport. I just want to be there for both of them as long as possible because it's worth it.

Host 2 (115:09)

What does the future look like for you?

Boris Becker (115:11)

Busy. You know, as I told you, I started from scratch two and a half years ago. So I have to work my butt off. But I work a lot. I have a lot of, lot of things professionally that I do. And we're good again. We're good again. Happy to live in Italy. Very, very happy to live in Milano. The fact that she's Italian obviously helps. I learned very late in life that, you know, a happy wife means a happy life. It took me about 40 years. So I want to give my experiences to the younger generation. My network in sport is very good. I think young sportsmen and women can relate to what I went through. And yeah, I like the camera, I like the microphone. I'm working in the media. I love it. But I also have to work.

Host 2 (116:07)

Is your mind finally quiet?

Boris Becker (116:10)

I'm quiet, yes. I'm a good sleeper again. I was bad sleeper for a long time. I like my own company again. I don't need a lot of people to tell me how great I am. I know I'm not great. I'm okay. I'm at peace. I'm at peace.

Host 2 (116:29)

I tell you one thing that I would love to see Boris Becker back at Wimbledon. Are you able yet to go to the uk?

Boris Becker (116:37)

No, I'm. I'm working very closely with the authorities. The problem is that my case is so unique. There hasn't been a very. Hasn't been a similar case like mine. So I'm working with the Home Office, I'm working with the Ministry of Justice, and, and we're all making an effort and we're all trying to find a way. They literally also try and help.

Host 2 (116:58)

I just thought once you've saved your time, you.

Boris Becker (117:00)

There's rule changes that would be a little bit too complicated now to explain that, but there's law changes. There were rule changes in the last couple of years. It's not as black and white. I'd love to come back to London. I'd love to come back to Wimbledon. It's sort of my middle name. I wouldn't be sitting here without Wimbledon. So I'm trying hard and I'm convinced one of these days we'll meet again in London.

Host 2 (117:27)

Have you thought about how that will feel?

Boris Becker (117:30)

It would probably be the last piece of my puzzle. If I get back to SW19. I mean, that's the one piece that's missing. I work hard at it and not so much again. Of course I love to work for the BBC, but just to be in the club, just to be in the club with my women, Ty as a member of the club, then the, the puzzle would be complete.

Interviewer (117:55)

Because why?

Boris Becker (117:57)

No, because I wouldn't go through all of this without Wimbledon. If I wouldn't have won Wimbledon 17, none of this would have happened. None of this.

Host 2 (118:07)

It's the most remarkable story. Thank you so much for sharing it with us. You know, I got on my flight today and the man sitting next to me was German and asked me, what am I doing? And I just said, well, I'm actually going to interview Boris Becker. And he said, ah, Germany has fallen in love with Boris Becker again.

Interviewer (118:21)

You're aware of that.

Boris Becker (118:22)

I'm.

Host 2 (118:23)

I won a big award recently.

Boris Becker (118:25)

Yeah. They like me again. They like me again. They start to appreciate a little bit. Maybe sometimes you have to be dying to be appreciated and maybe there's a new. A new wave of love that coming my way, which I like. I mean, I ultimately, I only have a German passport. That's why I went to a foreign national prison. Right. So.

Host 2 (118:48)

We'Ve got some quick fire questions to answer.

Interviewer (118:50)

Okay.

Host 2 (118:54)

The first one is, after everything you've been through, what are the three non negotiable behaviors? The three behaviors that now are most important to you?

Boris Becker (119:04)

Honesty, accountability and tolerance.

Host 1 (119:11)

Lovely.

Interviewer (119:13)

What one message would you want to send to the men that you met that are still in prison?

Boris Becker (119:19)

There is a light at the end of the tunnel. Keep digging.

Host 2 (119:23)

And for our audience that aren't aware of the work of the stoics, if you were to leave them with one stoic message, what would you want that to be?

Boris Becker (119:32)

Well, take care of your mind and of your thoughts, because that's the only place to live in.

Interviewer (119:41)

What makes a great coach?

Boris Becker (119:43)

Communication skills.

Host 2 (119:44)

You dedicated your book to your wife, but you also dedicated it to your mum. If she was here today, what would you want to tell her?

Boris Becker (119:53)

Well, I got to see her when I came out. That was very important to me. You know, I had a beautiful story on the first week in. In Wandsworth. So on the first Sunday, the chaplain, he sees all prisoners, and he also came into mine in my cell and he asked me, you know, whether Christian or Catholic, whatever, and yes, whether I wanted to go to the church service every Sunday once I get out, love to come to church service. And then I asked him, I said I wasn't able to call my mother yet. So can you find a way for me to call my mother? Because I haven't spoken to her yet since I'm in. And he said, you know what, come quickly with me into my office and I call your mother for you. So he picked up his phone, I gave him her number, she picked up, and I was able to Tell her that I'm okay. It's crazy. That was on the. The first Monday was Mother's Day in the uk, so on the Mother's Day, I was able to call my mother because the, the church chaplain allowed it. Probably. He, He. He broke the rule. It's probably not allowed, but yeah.

Host 2 (121:15)

So how important was that for you?

Boris Becker (121:18)

It was important for me, but I think it was more important for her. Yeah. Is that. That she. She knows me a long time. She knows I'm. I'm a son of a bitch, right? I can come through things. But she didn't hear from me, you know, for a couple days, and she just wanted to know that I'm okay.

Host 2 (121:34)

Amazing.

Interviewer (121:35)

You helped Novak Djokovic win Wimbledon. What was the secret that we didn't see?

Boris Becker (121:42)

Well, now in our first final together, he played against Roger Federer, and Roger was always his number one nemesis, especially at Wimbledon, A, because he was so good, and B, because he was so loved. So you always play against Roger Federer and the center court. And I was able to explain to him that these people are not against you, they're only for Roger Federer. So don't take it personal and then try harder to find a way for them to love you.

Host 2 (122:13)

Eventually, you see, you had to learn that yourself, though, as well, I think, because reading your book, there's these lovely moments for people that haven't read it yet where you. You go back in time, and some of them are letters to Lillian. One of them is a kind of a conversation you're having with yourself about Andre Agassi and the pain when this good looking, funny, charismatic tennis player arrives and you realize that the Becca Lendle era is coming to an end and there's a new Pete Sampras, Andre Agassi era and the pain that you went through at that time.

Boris Becker (122:44)

No, it's true. When you, when you've been put so much in the spotlight so early, of course you like it, of course you appreciate it. You want to be, you know, the center of everyone's attention. That's also partly the game plan is I'm able to win my matches because I'm so popular, right? A bit like what Roger has and Novak didn't. And so when a new star comes around, he takes away the popularity and the support. Then you pissed off. You're like, what happened? Am I good enough anymore? And that's why Andre was such an important part of my career. And beautiful thing is that afterwards we like each other a lot. Now, whenever we see he's coming out with his documentary. And he asked me to speak a lot about him and the same for me. So we became, even though we look very different and we're from different parts of the world, we're actually character wise, very similar. And we realized that after our career. But when he came on, he was enemy number one, of course.

Interviewer (123:49)

Are you happy?

Boris Becker (123:51)

That was the first question my wife asked me. And I didn't know what to say because I wasn't happy. You know, when you meet someone, you talk about tennis and the kids and everything. And then one question in our early beginning, she looked at me, goes, are you happy? And I didn't know what to say.

Host 2 (124:11)

Because what was the truth?

Boris Becker (124:12)

I was in miserable. I was not happy at all. And she, Because I went through all. We're talking 2018, right? 2018, hardest time, hardest time. I knew what was going to happen and all this. So I was not happy. I wasn't worried. Worst place of my life, even though I was outside. Right. So today I can easily say I'm very content, I'm at peace, I'm calm, I work a bit too much, but on that I'm, I'm good.

Host 2 (124:44)

So why do you say you're at peace and you're calm and you're content, but you don't say you're happy?

Boris Becker (124:49)

Happy for me, it's, it's a little bit of a. Too soft. Yeah, it doesn't, doesn't mean much. Happy, you know, people, I'm happy. What does it mean for me? It's, it's not, not a strong enough of a word, you know, happy. It doesn't, doesn't mean much for me.

Interviewer (125:05)

Yeah.

Host 2 (125:05)

I also think happy is so transient. Right. You can be content, but still unhappy.

Boris Becker (125:09)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Host 2 (125:11)

So the final question after this amazing conversation and thank you so much for giving us so much time, is the final thing you'd like to leave our audience thinking about how they can, after hearing this, go on and live their own high performance life?

Boris Becker (125:28)

Look, I think we all have talents that we don't even know about. I think we're all geniuses in our own way. We just have to dig and find out what makes us better, what makes us stronger. Sometimes you have to go through misery, through hardship to find the real qualities. I think we're all champions. We just gotta find that champion mentality of what makes me better, what makes me more successful in whatever way that is. And you know, as a teenager I was very much instinctive, you know, tennis and one to one and everything. And the other day I was thinking, you know, what would have happened if I wouldn't have become a tennis player, would have been good in something else with the same characters. And personally, the answer is probably yes. So tennis was just a tool for me. So we all have that inside of us. Everyone has something really special. And, you know, for me, the key of life was always be find that champion in you, whatever it is, and then be the best of it.

Host 2 (126:34)

Boris. What a story, what a life, and what an episode of high performance. Thank you.

Boris Becker (126:39)

Thank you very much. Thank you.

Host 2 (126:45)

Damien. Jake, you know the moment quite early on in the interview where Boris kind of almost turned the tables on us and said, you tell me how much you think I won for winning Wimbledon. You tell me what I went to prison for. I got the impression at that moment that this is a man who for so long has felt like people haven't been told the truth, who for so long knows that all people were interested in was the gossip, was the children, was the partners, was the finances, was the moments that he let himself down, that this was almost his first opportunity at redemption to tell his side of the story, to try and correct some of those mistruths that we all believe about Boris Becker. And for him to choose our show to come and do that, I feel honored. And I loved that conversation.

Interviewer (127:28)

Oh, it was a privilege. I mean, to talk about his experiences at prison and the indignation and the fear and some of the intimidating experiences he's gone through, and to come out of it the other side and say this was maybe one of the best things that could have happened to me is extraordinary.

Host 2 (127:44)

If you think about, like, lessons from high performance. Right. There was lessons there about the fact that he lost himself completely when he became world famous, but through no fault of his own. You know, as he said, he had no control. And then this moment where he retired from tennis, which we probably, maybe could have gone into further, but it was still, like, two hours long. But what happened after his career, that that kind of left him in a place where he felt a bit lost, but that being lost led to him making poor financial decisions, led eventually to his prison sentence. But now he sits there and goes, all of those bad things are kind of good for me. And I think it's another reminder for our audience that we spend our lives running away from the bad, running away from the negative, running away from what we think is actually not good for us, when actually sometimes those hard moments are the best things for us.

Interviewer (128:32)

Yeah. Although there's an extra bit of that that I Think he captured beautifully, which is, whatever happens, good or bad, you're responsible for it. And I think once you accept that responsibility, you can handle it, you know, because he wasn't like the bitterness about how other people faded away wasn't there for him, or the anger at what seems like a relatively minor crime leading to such a long imprisonment wasn't there for. Yeah, you're right.

Host 2 (129:00)

And he's not like saying it wasn't his fault, is he?

Interviewer (129:03)

No, absolutely.

Host 2 (129:04)

It's almost like he can still be angry that that sentence was passed, or he can still be angry about the fact that people walked away, but that's gonna do him no good. So what's the point? Let's just live with acceptance. Is that really the message?

Interviewer (129:15)

Yeah.

Boris Becker (129:16)

Yeah.

Interviewer (129:16)

I thought that was incredibly powerful. It's like we hear terms, you know, like, we've spoken to people that have written books on stoicism, but to see somebody that is practicing it, even in such extreme circumstances, to me was the biggest takeaway.

Host 2 (129:30)

Yeah, yeah. And I still think, you know, people often get this podcast wrong. They think High Performance is something it isn't. And that conversation with Boris Becker is the perfect epitome of why this show exists. Absolutely. The kinds of messages we want people to hear.

Interviewer (129:42)

Definitely. I've loved it.

Host 2 (129:44)

Me too. Thanks, mate.

Interviewer (129:45)

Thank you, mate.

Host 1 (129:48)

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of High Performance. Listen, we've challenged ourselves on the High Performance team, and I'm going to tell you about it. We've challenged ourselves to make this the place where we deliver the very best interviews with tennis legends and tennis superstars, tennis coaches. We want to take tennis fans really deep inside the world of the sport that they love. So if you're a tennis player and in between playing at these major tournaments, you just fancy being on High Performance, you know? We would love you to join us on the show. I would love to share the stories of the Rafa Nadal's and the Roger Federers and the Andy Murray's and the just so many brilliant, wonderful, talented, amazing tennis players out there. And it's a sport, and anyone that's played it will know it's a sport where you can feel so alone one moment and you can feel so connected to the crowd and to the people around you at the next. So let's see what we can do. Let's try and chase down the biggest, best and brightest tennis players and tennis stories out there. And if you as our audience can help ping us a message, we'd love to sit down and speak to you in the way we spoke to Boris. Thanks for joining us and we'll see you again soon for another episode of High Performance.

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