Gareth Southgate: The Truth About Leaving England (E380)

Summary

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The High Performance Podcast

Episode: Gareth Southgate: The Truth About Leaving England (E380)
Date: November 24, 2025
Hosts: Jake Humphrey & Damian Hughes
Guest: Gareth Southgate, former England football manager

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Episode Overview

This episode is an in-depth, reflective conversation with Gareth Southgate following his departure as England manager after an eight-year tenure. Southgate discusses the immense pressures of leading the national team, the decisions and philosophies that shaped his leadership, the highs and lows of managing in the spotlight, and the enduring challenges and legacies left behind. The episode also explores broader lessons in leadership, resilience, and organizational culture, making it relevant far beyond football.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Southgate Left the England Role

• Changing Expectations & Narratives
  • After initial progress and optimism, public and media narratives became critical regardless of performance (“there's a narrative about perception of style of play... people are saying, you're the person holding the team back” – Southgate, 04:18–06:00).
  • Internal pressure grew as the enjoyment faded and the team struggled to meet external expectations.
• Impact on Personal Well-being
  • Southgate felt the joy and sense of purpose erode; even great victories were fleeting in satisfaction (“if the joy's gone, then you're going to find it hard to give that feeling that you need to give the players” – Southgate, 08:45).
  • He recognized the need for fresh leadership after feeling incumbent fatigue and sensed it was the right time, regardless of results.
• Support and Decision with Family
  • Southgate revealed he asked his family not to attend matches due to the vitriolic environment, choosing to shield loved ones from abuse (13:14–14:47).

2. Leadership in Times of Intense Scrutiny

• Handling Media and Public Criticism
  • Managed ongoing criticism for years; efforts to recalibrate the narrative had limited effectiveness as it was a long-term trend (“it had been building for...four years of not picking the right team...constant fight” – Southgate, 16:42–17:35).
• Internal Leadership and Group Management
  • Regular honest meetings with players and staff to reinforce reality, maintain calm, and keep focus on controlling what they could (“my job through that tournament was to keep reminding them...we're showing resilience and spirit” – Southgate, 10:16–12:57).
  • Stressed the importance of the leader’s emotional projection during adversity (“they needed to see the leader is confident of where we’re heading” – Southgate, 12:30).

3. Redefining England’s Culture

• Diagnosing an Unhappy, Disconnected Team (2016)
  • On arrival, found disconnection with fans and media, and players paralyzed by fear of failure (“players just protecting themselves from failure...fear of being the one who lost it” – Southgate, 28:42–30:20).
• Building Psychological Security
  • Implemented rituals, messaging, and behaviors emphasizing respect, collective responsibility, and small habits (“when those small things are right, nobody actually notices them...but when they start to disappear, you get this creep” – Southgate, 33:17).
  • Shared stories like Kieran Trippier cleaning up after the team as a symbol of cultural standards (37:11–37:42).
• Learning from Elite Environments
  • Used shared discomfort experiences (e.g., Marines training) to forge resilience and identify real leaders under pressure (34:41–37:05).
  • Invited outside perspectives (e.g., the Marines’ leadership appraisal of squad; poker player Casper Berry for decision theory; data scientists for penalties).

4. Penalty Shootout Redemption

• Personal Growth from Failure (Euro ‘96)
  • Southgate’s missed penalty in 1996 profoundly shaped his approach to pressure (“what flipped that for me was I got dropped...realized I’d been through the worst” – Southgate, 50:10).
• Strategy & Preparation
  • Led data-driven, psychologically prepared approaches to shootouts that broke longstanding England “curses” (52:36–54:41). Notably, his 2018 World Cup shootout win was a signature moment of redemption for himself and the team.
  • Shared process and rationale for who takes penalties, the role of evidence (penalty stats, mental prep), and how decisions were revisited and refined after the Euro 2021 final loss (61:55–66:53).
  • Revealed learning from mistakes, including the need for less penalty practice for certain players like Marcus Rashford (64:29).

5. People Management: Hard Decisions

• Discussing High-profile Player Transitions
  • On retiring Wayne Rooney from international football: stressed empathy, respect, and honest communication – and credited Rooney’s accepting attitude (67:08–69:23).
  • Emphasized the need for difficult conversations and not avoiding hard truths for the sake of longer-term organizational health and personal development (69:41–72:47).

6. Broader Reflections on Leadership & Legacy

• How Southgate Hopes to Be Remembered
  • Recognizes dual legacies—trophy counts and the transformation of culture, connectivity, and systems within England football (“if I was talking to youngsters about leadership...what did you leave behind?” – 72:54).
  • Accepts some will focus on missed trophies, but champions a wider, more humanistic definition of legacy.
• Career Transition & Purpose
  • Open about career anxieties and the challenges of moving on from a purpose-driven, high-performance role (“I’m now in a career transition moment almost” – 74:17).
  • Sees a new mission in mentoring and inspiring hope in young people, challenging negativity about the country and the future (75:57–76:53).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Leaving and Changing Expectations
  • “If the joy’s gone, you're going to find it hard to give that feeling that you need to give the players.”
    —Gareth Southgate (08:45)
• On Media Pressure
  • “The important thing is they come for me, not for the team. My job’s to take it for the team.”
    —Gareth Southgate (17:44)
• On Small Cultural Details
  • “When those small things are right, nobody actually notices them. But when they start to disappear, you get this creep of behaviors that slowly erodes.”
    —Gareth Southgate (33:17)
• On Vulnerability
  • “I'm not somebody that worries about showing vulnerability... You're opening up for them... It's a sign of strong confidence.”
    —Gareth Southgate (58:38–59:33)
• On Penalty Redemption
  • “Without a doubt...I’ve become a world expert on penalty shoots now.”
    —Gareth Southgate (52:36)
  • “The more you build up the percentages in your favor, then logically to me, you've got a better chance of succeeding.”
    —Gareth Southgate (66:53)
• Post-Final Homecoming Story
  • “The Spanish manager’s in Madrid on an open top bus... I open the door, and there’s Ted [the dog]. He doesn’t care about the final, does he? He’s thrown up all over the bedroom floor.”
    —Gareth Southgate (24:41)
• On Future Purpose
  • “I want to help this, change this narrative around our country that the country’s a mess... Let's give young people hope.”
    —Gareth Southgate (75:57)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:17 – 08:45: Why Southgate stepped down – expectations, personal well-being, and joy lost
• 10:16 – 15:54: Handling pressure, team meetings, and the role of family
• 28:42 – 34:21: Transformation of England team’s culture – connection, trust, behavior
• 34:41 – 37:42: Marines experience; leadership under adversity; small details matter
• 45:40 – 50:01: Media criticism, footballers’ psychology, and reinforcing confidence
• 52:36 – 56:32: Penalty shootouts – lessons from Euro 96, World Cup 2018, process and prep
• 61:55 – 66:53: Decision-making under pressure, data vs. intuition, adjusting philosophy
• 67:08 – 72:47: Managing player retirements; communications and tough conversations
• 72:54 – 76:53: Legacy, scars, career transition, and hope for the next generation
• 24:41: Gareth’s return home after the Euros final – the dog and life’s grounding realities

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Additional Insights

• Leadership Mantras: Southgate values humility, empathy, and clear communication, resisting authoritarian models for more collaborative, trust-based approaches.
• Team Rituals: Emphasizes the compounding effect of daily habits and standards (e.g., picking up kit, tidiness), translating off-pitch standards directly onto performance.
• Legacy Beyond Results: Measures success by transformed culture, renewed pride, player development, and stronger connectivity — not just trophies.
• Universal Lessons: Episode underscores that leadership lessons from elite sport apply across business, schools, families, and all organizations.

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Tone and Final Impression

Southgate spoke candidly, combining vulnerability with poise, humility with authority. The episode is reflective, honest, occasionally poignant, yet ultimately optimistic about leadership, personal growth, and the power of creating positive environments—even amid daunting challenges.

For listeners seeking inspiration and practical lessons on high-performance culture, resilience, and human-centered leadership, this episode is essential.

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Transcript

[Jake Humphrey]

Unlock it early on the High performance app Gareth Southgate, England's former manager who opens up about life leading his country.

[Gareth Southgate]

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[Gareth Southgate]

We go to a penalty shootout. For us, in that moment, it was about the process that gives us the best percentage chance of winning. A friend of ours had looked after the dog and he's thrown up all over the bedroom floor. Bear in mind the Spanish manager's currently in Madrid on an open top bus. Go over to support the fans. They're lobbing beer at me. If the joy's gone, you're going to find it hard to give that feeling that you need to give the players.

[Jake Humphrey]

That is the voice of Gareth Southgate, the former England manager, a transformative leader, the man who took a team that hadn't won a knockout game in a decade to back to back European Championship finals. But this is about so much more than just football, because this is a conversation about Gareth navigating incredible scrutiny, dealing with the highest stakes and defining a legacy that goes far beyond the scoreline. We're about to delve into the profound shift from managing football results to managing human beings. Gareth explains to us what it was like walking through the door as England manager in 2016 to find a team disconnected from its fans, disconnected from the media and players just protecting themselves from failure. He explains to us why he took his team into the mud with the marines and what the soldiers revealed about who the real England leaders were. We talk about the penalty shootout, redemption from missing in 96 to masterminding three wins in four attempts, and why he told Marcus Rashford to practice less. And that final tournament in Germany, having beer thrown at him by England fans. Him asking the people closest to him not to come to the tournament. And actually why he knew before that final whether they won or lost, he'd be walking away. Please welcome back to High Performance, the incredible Sir Gareth Southgate. Welcome back to High Performance.

[Gareth Southgate]

Thanks for having me again.

[Jake Humphrey]

Well, Gareth, it's been 15 months since you walked away from the England job. Why?

[Gareth Southgate]

Well, why? Expectations had changed around the team, so the freshness that we had at the start, you know, there's progress, there's new things we're doing, there's enthusiasm. The fans are on a journey with us. You know, once we'd lost the final to Italy, one or two games over the next couple of years, there was a different narrative. There was a narrative about perception of style of play. So, you know, we play with the handbrake on more. Actually, there's only two periods in English football where they've scored more goals per game. So, you know, whatever the start of play is, we're scoring more than previous generations. I think some of the stands I took for the team on social issues affected the support from some sections of the fans. So there's a little bit of division now over whether I'm the right person to stay. There's a little bit of a narrative of we've got the players, we just need to get a coach that can deliver the win. And you felt, well, yeah, because inevitably, although I'm not searching for articles, I'm sitting in press conferences. People are asking those questions to me. They're telling me that they're challenging me in press conferences, people are saying, you're the person holding the team back. You know, there's an alternative narrative where the way that we manage the team is why we got as far as we did. Maybe we'd have gone out far earlier, but. So I'd got to a stage where the FA were very keen for me to stay. They offered me a new contract. I didn't think signing a new contract before the tournament would be a good idea because I'd seen Fabio Capello do that years earlier and it created a tension. Well, why is he getting a new contract before the tournament? It should be after. And it actually, I thought, increased the pressure on the team. So, okay, what will be acceptable performance? Well, that's hard to judge, but I knew anything less than winning it. And, you know, we're one of the favourites, but still only even as one of the favourites, there's a 15% chance statistically of winning it. But if we don't win, I just know the narrative will be a desire for change externally. And then during that tournament, we didn't play as well as we'd have hoped. We couldn't find a rhythm. We had players with injuries. We had some key players that we lost just before the tournament. People like Maguire, by the way, people who we were criticised for years for playing, but have now actually become really important part of how people view the team. So then we're in the early stages of the competition, the crowd are turning in the stadium and that's now starting to affect the team. I felt, you know, we're back to the tension in an England game. We're back to this sort of sense of entitlement. And probably once we place the vinia again, we finished the game, we haven't played well, but we've topped the group. You go over to support the fans, they're lobbing beer at me. You're kind of thinking, well, probably win or lose, it's probably the right time to go, because further down the line, this is just going to ramp pressure on the team. And also from a personal perspective, the enjoyment from the wins was getting even shorter and shorter. You know, even the semi final against Holland, I made changes. One sub sets up the other sub to score the winner and it's about as good as it can get as a coach. We're now in a second final. First final on foreign shores. Celebrate on the pitch. Do a ridiculous dad dance on the pitch. Love watching the players celebrate in the dressing room for five minutes and then suddenly I thought, no, no. But I lift all this in the last euros and three days later, you know, it was carnage. So I was straight onto the next thing. So even the semi final win, I probably enjoyed it for eight, nine minutes. And if the joy's gone, then you're going to find it hard to give that feeling that you need to give the players. Probably any leader. It's a long period, eight years. You know, if you look at leaders in anything, I think people get, I've said in the book, incumbency, fatigue or whatever they call it, you know, they're ready for change. Circumstances around the team don't change. You know, if we had a change of government tomorrow, the new government's got all the problems and issues to deal with. But people that elected a different government would think there's hope because they're hoping for something different, whoever's in power. I think that's what happens in football. You know, there's moments where the support's gone for managers. Clubs change because they're trying to release the tension and there's hope. But actually they've still got the same centre back, they've still got the same, They've still got no money to spend. So you've got to be a wizard to come in and make that very different. Because a coach is relying on all the other parts of a football club or rugby club or whatever, being in a good place to be able to succeed.

[Damian Hughes]

But can we go back to that voice in your head at this stage? Because some of this narrative that's building around you is unfair, patently based on the facts and of history and decisions you've made in that semi final. What were you saying to yourself to be able to still front or to still represent the leader that the team.

[Gareth Southgate]

Needed, that I've got to navigate the team through this. Of the four tournaments, this is probably the most challenging for keeping the outside noise on the outside. So after every game, bringing the whole group together, players and staff, talking to them about, this is where we're at, this is the reality. There was a picture. We drew 1:1 with Denmark. Not a good performance. The Danes are celebrating with their fans. They've got one point and they're on two points for the tournament. Our players are like this. They're on the floor, they're heading hands. We've also got a point. We're top of the table on four points. But the players have gone with this narrative that we should be ashamed of the performance, not thinking, hang on, this is tournament football. You know, the objective is to qualify from the group. So, fellas, we're fine. You know, we've now two games gone. We're a 97% chance that we're through anyway, whatever happens in the third game. So we've got to stay on track, we've got to stay calm. In a tournament, you're in this bubble where you can be so affected by what's going on outside and lose the togetherness, lose the sense of direction that, you know, my job through that tournament was to keep reminding them, boom, hey, we've got to get better, by the way, you know, this is what we've got to do better. We're not doing this well enough, we're not, but we're still here. And regardless of everything else, we're showing resilience and we're showing spirit that we've developed over six, eight years through the big nights where we've won and the nights where we've lost. So let's keep on track. And, you know, they needed to see the leader is confident of where we're heading. You know, in those moments, everybody's looking at the leader. How's he dealing with it? Am I ready to follow him? How's he coping? So I know what I've got to project, but I also know in my room, I'm thinking, I've got to see this through. I'm going to keep my dignity in the press conferences. I'm not going to bite. I'm in control. I know I'm actually feeling personally in pretty good form. So, yeah, so all of those things, where had I been 10 years younger, back to my time at Middlesbrough. I've got nowhere near the catalogue of experiences to draw on, so I couldn't possibly have got through that then. But 10 years later, with hundred internationals behind me, totally different experiences to draw on. Strength of resolve, everything, really.

[Damian Hughes]

And what about your family, though? Because that must be pretty horrific for them to watch you having to walk through this.

[Gareth Southgate]

Yeah, well, that is. I mean, reality is, that is different because they haven't elected to be in that environment and they are living it and they are reading about their dad. They didn't come to a game until the final because I said, you know, I don't think it's a good idea for you to come. I don't think you should be in the stadium.

[Damian Hughes]

Because of the abuse?

[Gareth Southgate]

Well, yeah, just because the environment for them, the discussion, the narrative around my position through that tournament, I didn't want to be worrying about what they might be dealing with. So let's cut that problem out. You guys stay at home. When we won the semi final, I said, you might be all right now. Stories turned a little bit. You might as well come because you never know, we might actually have a incredible night. That'll be so, again, you've got to manage the things that you're in control of. It'd be interesting, the Ryder cup lads, next time, do they want all their families around or. Actually, Actually, yeah. I don't want to be worrying about. I've got a play. I can't be worrying about those other things. So I had to manage. You know, there's always a bit of. We've got brilliant. I have brilliant people that look after me, that would have helped my family with their travel and everything else. But small part of you would have still been saying, yeah, hope they're all right. I don't know who's sitting around them. What are they saying? You know, they're so, yeah, we. We avoided that issue.

[Jake Humphrey]

Did they know you were finishing the job after the tournament?

[Gareth Southgate]

Yeah, I did have that conversation with them because I had to reassure them. Look, I'm, you know, I'm reassuring them I'm fine. You know, they're. They're at home, they're reading things, they're watching television, they're listening because, you know, they're not as experienced as I am as closing those things off. So they're thinking, blimey, is dad all right? You know, in a rare moment of worrying about dad. But, yeah, so I'm thinking, no, no, no, look, I know where we are. You know this. If it ends on Wednesday, we've had an amazing journey. I don't want to go, you know, Slovakia, first knockout game or whatever it is. I don't want it to finish on Wednesday. But if it does, we'll have to deal with it. But I'm fine. Okay, we're onto the next one. We're onto the next one. And I needed to reassure them that I was fine. And it was easy for me to do that because I was in a good place, so I wasn't having to act that, you know, they would have known me, they would sense where I was with everything.

[Jake Humphrey]

You didn't feel lonely.

[Gareth Southgate]

I had brilliant staff around me. So you're never succeeding on your own. You're constantly drawing on good people around you. Yeah. Leadership position. There are moments where you're the only, you know, you are the only one and you make decisions and you're left with your own thoughts. But I wasn't in that camp thinking, oh, God, you know, I'm not. I felt unbelievably well supported by good people.

[Jake Humphrey]

Obviously there's the moment that you decide to walk away. Right before that, did you try and turn things around and explain this is unfair for the following reasons or attempt to change the direction of the media narrative and the public mood?

[Gareth Southgate]

Yeah, but I think this had been building for, you know, I don't think this was a two, three month thing. I think we'd been four years of not picking, you know, he's not picking the right team, he's not playing the right way. You know, there's a better alternative out there. So you are fighting it for, you know, it wasn't like, oh, okay, I'm getting a bit of criticism, I'm off. You know, I'm a bit more resilient than that. There'd been this build up for a long period, you know, even through the Euros at home. We should be playing, should be playing X, should be playing Y. Why are we playing five at the back against Germany? Well, actually, we've matched them up and we've won against a very, very good side. First time we beat in Germany in a knockout game for 30 years. So, you know, it was a constant fight. I had those two, three years leading into Russia, that it was all, it's all new, it's all fresh.

[Jake Humphrey]

Did you understand it at all or was it just confusing? Like why, why is this the narrative around a successful team, the most successful team since Alf Ramsey?

[Gareth Southgate]

Well, that, that's logical to take that view. And of course, part of me would definitely think that that would be a fairer way to look at it. But I understood it because I've been in football for 37 years, so I understand that as a leader, you know, the important thing is they come for me, not for the team. My job's to take it for the team. I've got to give them space. I've got to take the pressure off of them. So I've, because of all the things that have happened in my life, I've developed that resilience, that shell that you can cope with it a little bit more. And, you know, I can't take it all because, you know, everybody's got to take a little bit, but I'm going to protect them as much as I can, so. And you accept, you know, I'd seen everybody from Graham Taylor to Bobby Robson. I knew what the job was. Most amazing life experience, incredible memories, nights that I'll never ever forget, that people that come up to me will never forget. You know, some kids think we always get to finals. They've never known anything different. They haven't lived the 45 years we have. So leadership's hard, isn't it? You know, and it's never been harder because of 247 media, social media. That is the landscape. It comes with great rewards, great experiences and there's another side to that as well.

[Damian Hughes]

If you'd have known the cost though, would you have still taken the job?

[Gareth Southgate]

Well, I did know what the costs would be. When Roy left, I was asked to apply and I backed off of it, really. And one of the reasons being I'd seen all those previous managers and do I want to go through all of that and a little bit of a lack of belief in myself, perhaps, and a feeling that actually an internal appointment at that moment where we'd just lost to Iceland, I think would have got lambasted by the public. So actually, two months down the line when Sam left, slightly different, actually. We've got a game in a week's time, somebody's got to take the team. I'm the only one left, so, you know, we'll give it a go. There's a different narrative that you're inheriting. If you're going in on the back foot from the start, it's hard to change that. You know, I see managers appointed now and there's either, ah, this is great and we're ready for this. You know, Daishi going to forest, he's a forest guy. And so there's a little bit of momentum. But I've seen managers appointed and fans are against it from the start. Ruffs are ranges. You're pushing a boulder up a hill from the off. You know, it's not impossible to turn that around, but it's much, much harder.

[Jake Humphrey]

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[Gareth Southgate]

It's Nikayla from side HustlePro and I want to tell you about something exciting. You're watching EveryDollar and Walmart Business helps you Stretch each one from office supplies to snacks and cleaning gear. You'll get everyday low prices plus easy bulk ordering and fast delivery. And with tools like spend tracking and multi user accounts, staying organized is simple. Save time, money and hassle. @business.walmart.com it's free to join. Oh God. No, I mean the life experience I've had, the things I've been able to do. I've met royal family, prime ministers, traveled the world at the most amazing nights in professional sport, been involved in some of the biggest games in world football, amazing relationships with players and staff. So no, I mean, you know, for all the. We focused a little bit on a period where it's hard and you, you know, that leaves a few scars, there's no doubt about that. But no, what a life experience to be able to do that, hold that position for the length of time I had.

[Jake Humphrey]

And the following day after you told the FA and you were no longer the England manager, how did that feel?

[Gareth Southgate]

A lot of karma. I told a story, did a stage show the other day, we, the morning after the final we land back in Birmingham. We're obviously charter flight. My family is still flying back on with all the other families so they're going to be home after us. So I get back to home and a friend of ours had looked after the dog. We've got a little cockapoo by the way. I don't normally like to be seen out in the hours of daylight with him. I prefer a lab or something. Teddy, Teddy. He's 12 now. So I open the door and there's Ted. I mean he doesn't care about the final, does he? You know, he doesn't care who's played left back. He's there, it's unconditional. Got all my bags from six weeks and I go upstairs, I take my bags upstairs and he's thrown up all over the bedroom floor. So now bear in mind the Spanish manager is currently in Madrid on an open top bar with a trophy. So if you want the contrast between the margins of winning and losing, there you are in a nutshell.

[Damian Hughes]

He's Teddy.

[Gareth Southgate]

Welcome all.

[Jake Humphrey]

You know what though, in some ways isn't that almost the best welcome home because it's a reminder that like life just keeps on moving.

[Gareth Southgate]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean I'm not putting myself in with rock bands but I've heard about rock bands going on tour and the struggle to adapt back to, you know, I mean my wife's pretty quick to tell me, never mind that you're home now, get the bins out. So. But that's, you know, that is life, isn't it? Life goes on. Okay, but they are the, that's the difference. You know, I'm, we're 85 minutes one all in the final. They were the better team. But if we win two one, you know, I'm not home alone with the dog, I'm in Trafalgar Square. You know, that's the margins of winning and losing and that's legacy in some ways for. And it made, it's made me wonder historic figures that have incredible history that we've read about, you know, Churchill or whoever else it might be across world history. I wonder what those margins were in those moments and how we judge whether people were successful or, you know, less successful.

[Jake Humphrey]

Take a look at that photo. And that fresh faced young man on the day he's announced as the England manager, did he realize what was ahead of him, do you think?

[Gareth Southgate]

No. Clearly you can't know at that point how everything's going to play out. I do remember talking in a press conference and saying, I've seen people get into roles and that's almost been their end. And I was determined that, okay, getting the role, that's fine, it's a level above anything I've ever experienced before. But it's really now about what we do and what we go and deliver and how we go about it. So I was very clear that that wasn't the end of it, it was day one. Even though it was a huge step from anything I'd done previously.

[Jake Humphrey]

See, I think we're now talking at a very interesting time for you because I think when you were the England manager and it was about results and it was about tournaments and it was about progression and it was about selection and it was about players, all the other things that you did in the role that are now your legacy were kind of, they weren't dismissed but they weren't discussed because there was bigger things in that moment. And I kind of feel that now we're finally having the conversation about just how different England looks to the day that you walked through the door in 2016. So can you take us back to what you found in the England setup when you did walk through the door and you thought, okay, this is, this needs my attention.

[Gareth Southgate]

Yeah. I mean the start point was obviously results. So no knockout win for 10 years. Disconnect with the public, disconnect with the media. I didn't find a group that were disunited. So, you know, under Roy, I thought lads got on you know, there was the start of relationships being built. So I wouldn't say we walked in and, goodness me, you know, they were all over the place disagreeing with each other. That wasn't the case, I think, because when a team's underperforming, they sometimes don't commit as much because they sense it might not work and they don't want to throw themselves all in because they'll be scarred by the failure almost. So it was a fortunate period in that, I think because of results, there was a willingness for change. There was definitely an openness within the FA. We'd moved to St George's Park a few years before. A lot of change was going on with the junior youth teams and I'd been involved in that. People like Dan Ashworth were there, Dave Reddin, so good, strategic people. You know, I'm not or I wasn't then particularly good strategically. So I had people around me with other skill sets that I was able to lean into. But culture felt like one of the biggest things and this commitment to the cause and we really, well, definitely fear of, I guess, what I experienced being the player that was responsible for the moment where you go out of a tournament, and I think there was definitely a feeling of, I don't want to be that player. So a bit of self protection, playing for your national football team doesn't come with much more pressure than that in sport because you're outside your comfort zone. At a club, you're there 300 days a year, you know, everybody from the kit man to the lady that's washing the kit to dinner people providing the meals. So if you have a bad performance, this comfort there, this, I suppose what we'd call psychological security. With the national team you're in, you've got to bond quickly. When you have a performance, everybody's weighing in with opinion. So for a player, it's a much, much less secure feeling, if you like. And one of the things I wanted to create was, okay, how do we release that tension? Because I played for England and I knew what that felt like and we couldn't be burdened by the history of my generation not getting the results. You know, part of what we did was to focus on this moment in time, free you up of everything that's gone before, Talk to them a bit about my experiences. But, you know, you can make this moment something really special. You'd have heard us talk about creating our own history. That was why we kept using that phrase. Really? Okay, we haven't won here for 30 years. Let's be the first to do it. Sort of challenge mindset rather than feeling the pressure of we've got to win, I suppose.

[Damian Hughes]

But I think what was significant, Gareth, is. And you write about this really beautifully in your brilliant book, you didn't just rely on slogans of let's create our own history. You then boiled it down to really clear cultural behaviors, including how you give the kit back. Would you explain a bit about that and its significance?

[Gareth Southgate]

Culture is a word that's used an enormous amount, isn't it? So what is that? What creates that? Well, the leader definitely sets the tone for that. And respectfully, there's what you say, but then what you do is far more important. So same as our kids looking at us, you know, they're looking at our behaviors, they're mimicking what we do. That's why I pull the same faces that my dad pulls, you know, and you go, oh, God, I must be getting old because doing those things. So players are the same. You know, if you're saying we want to have freedom and then a mistake happens on the pitch and I'm jumping up and down like John Cleese, then they're going to say, well, there is no, hang on a minute. He's talking about freedom, but actually these killing us or he's killing us in a meeting afterwards, so. And then there's the small habits. So when I was a young coach at Middlesbrough, I let small things go. I didn't pull up little cultural creep.

[Jake Humphrey]

What sort of things would count as small cultural creeps?

[Gareth Southgate]

Well, like putting the kit in the wash, bath, you know, kit's on the floor. Okay, so it's the kit. Is it the kit man's job to pick your kit up off the floor? Or actually, are we going to have a standard where there's respect for the kit man? All we're asking you to do is put your kit in the wash basket. Makes his life easier, shows a bit of respect for the kit. I'm not going to fine people for doing it, but let's have those little things as accepted behaviors. And when those small things are right, nobody actually notices them. But when they start to disappear, you get what I call this creep of behaviors that slowly erodes. And if you. If you don't step on it, then, you know, slightly more important, you know, timekeeping starts to suffer. And before you know it, then on the field, you're taking those behaviors onto the field. So I think it's about respect for the whole group, players, staff. You know, everybody thinks about the 26 players, but you've probably got double that many staff now as well. So everybody's got to be part of that.

[Jake Humphrey]

One of the other things that I really enjoyed seeing you do early on was taking your players out of the comfort that so many are used to and into the mud of the Marine environment and doing some time with the military. Would you sort of share with us why you felt it was important that you had not just a shared experience, but some shared discomfort with your players?

[Gareth Southgate]

Yeah, yeah. So, firstly, I always think it's important to acknowledge where other people have been involved, because as a leader, you get a lot of stick for things that aren't all your fault, and you get credit for things that aren't all your decisions. So, I mean, Dave Reddin, who's now joined Wells Rugby, he was with Clive Woodward in 2003. They'd been to the Marines. So he had lived through that experience, and he suggested he thought this would be a good way of putting the guys into a different environment, taking them out of their comfort zone. Then, as the leader, you've got to assimilate all those ideas. Well, what does that mean? We've got tens of millions of pounds worth of football, as if one of them turns their ankle, we're in real trouble with the clubs here. Where are we heading with that? Will they like it? Will they hate it? You know, a lot of the players that were with us for the full eight years would say one of the best experiences they ever had.

[Damian Hughes]

Did the Marines give you any feedback on what they were seeing from the squad?

[Gareth Southgate]

Well, we definitely asked about who they saw as strong leaders in the group. So I remember on that camp they talked about Joe Hart, Harry Kane, and, you know, then we were, you know, okay, well, you know, what. What was that? And there was a selflessness, there was a going in first, you know, a fearlessness about how they approach things. So it was great to get an outside view of your group. I mean, I. I love that aspect of it anyway. I'm always looking at the psychology of a group and the hierarchy of a group and the dynamics, because fundamentally, that's what you're building. There's the tactics board, but there's the flesh and blood, and there's how does this all fit together? Those team dynamics and squad dynamics are critical to creating a culture where players can go and perform at their very best and a team can perform at their best. So I have to be careful. I don't, you know, I don't just focus on that. There's all the other things that you need to get right, but you get an idea of players that are going to fit in or not fit in anyway. But a trip like that accelerates that massively because they're under pressure, they're a bit tired, they're a bit irritable. They can't just be on their best behavior, you know, their natural tendencies come out and you can start to identify. Not sure that's gonna work in this environment, really.

[Damian Hughes]

I remember you telling me a story about on that trip. Was it Kevin Trippier, collecting rubbish that impressed you?

[Gareth Southgate]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, again, we're back to small details, but, you know, you're camping out and some of the lads wrapped the tent up, cleared off, and there's a pile of mess on the. You know, we're out in the countryside. Okay, what are we doing about that? He'd just tidied his bedroom, basically. You know, again, simple things, but small habits matter. You know, small habits every day are what end up leading to elite performance, really.

[Jake Humphrey]

And how would a trip like that help England to win games of football?

[Gareth Southgate]

Well, I think there was an element of hardship. I mean, we actually. Our next game, we were away at Hampden park, so we're going into a pretty hostile environment. And, you know, we talked about the resilience that we'd gained and when we were one nil ahead in the game, pretty comfortable 85 minutes. Lee Griffiths hits a free kick, one all. Two minutes later, he gets an identical free kick, same position. And I'm looking at thinking, this is going in, by the way. He's gonna. He pops in. We're now two one down. And if we lose this game now, the whole Marines trip's got a different slant on it.

[Jake Humphrey]

And that's also when public opinion feels very different about those sorts of things. As we've seen. Russell Martin is a good example as a manager. Results weren't helping him when he did an outdoors trip with his lads.

[Gareth Southgate]

Well, you're a hostage to outcome. And of course, outcome in football is such fine margins, such random events that can happen. So they pop two free kicks. We're now two one down, three minutes to go, but we get a late equalizer. And of course, we can now build on resilience, character, all those things we've just talked about. You're building a different story. So there are sliding doors, moments that can go another way, and then you've really got to fight to keep the team and the narrative on track in a different way.

[Damian Hughes]

There's a brilliant story in the book that I'd like you to explain about the poker chips and how you engaged the players. Would you tell us more about it?

[Gareth Southgate]

Well, that was not the players so much, it was more the staff group behind the scenes. So this was one of Dave's again. At that stage, everything was up for grabs. Okay, how can we improve the performance of the team? So could be the physical preparation, could be the psychological preparation. It might, you know, what are we doing on our football? So details of set plays and had.

[Jake Humphrey]

You taken charge of a game before you did this?

[Gareth Southgate]

This was after my four games as a caretaker.

[Jake Humphrey]

Right, so this is almost the start of your reign properly?

[Gareth Southgate]

Yeah. Right, yeah. And how do we, you know, we're now 14th in the world, we want to be the best. That's the gap. How do we bridge that gap? Media relations as an example. We knew there was this disconnect. How do we bridge that gap? You know, our comms team wrote a paper almost, almost like an academic paper on the influence of communications on performance. So it wasn't just how we're going to do the media better, it was, look, this is actually how we view our communication as a performance gain. And if you think back to Russia, where it was the first time really a team had used social media to engage with the fans, you know, we were in that transition where clubs weren't necessarily doing that. So all this different content, where you saw the dad's genuine, you know, behind the scenes enjoyment, relaxed pictures. We had our own photographer embedded, whereas what you used to see was photographs from the day before a game, training at the stadium. Everyone's got their game face on because we better look serious because the press are in, so can't look like we're enjoying it. Everybody will think we're messing about and not taking it seriously. Whereas, so people thought, well, they don't like playing for England. Well, I don't think that was always the story, but that was the images that were going out. So all of a sudden you've got, you know, Maguire on his inflatable unicorn and all those sorts of things that are, oh, these lads get on, you know, you're changing the narrative, then you win a couple of games and so, yeah, so all those details and back to your poker chips. So there's all these things we could do, but We've only got 50 days a year with the team, so we can't do everything. And what are the key things? So, staff then. Okay, where are you going to put your poker chips? Basically, you've got 30 chips, you can put them all on one area.

[Jake Humphrey]

And what sort of topics were you offering them?

[Gareth Southgate]

So in a football sense, how we attack, how we defend, set plays, penalty shootouts. So we know, or we knew, you've probably got to win a penalty shootout to win a tournament. History tells us that we're a disaster at them. History tells us that as well. So that's an obvious one. But again, set plays, you know, set play coaches at that time, specialist coaches in other sports were more prevalent. They weren't in football. When we went to Russia, we had a huge amount of success with set plays. And then medically, you know, you can't make the players in the time you have them internationally, you can't make the players fitter and stronger. Really, you haven't got long enough. If you push them too hard, you're going to break them, you're going to send them back injured. So you've got to really think about how much training they're doing. You know, it's got to be aligned with what they do at their club, otherwise they're going to be fatigued going into a game that's going to inhibit their performance. So all these things, right, I'm going to put some chips there. And we slowly developed a picture of, okay, this is where we need to allocate our time. This is where we've only got a certain amount of financial resource. So if we want a set play coach, that's going to cost us money, what aren't we going to do if we're putting that in place? And it was basically a prioritisation exercise.

[Jake Humphrey]

But your staff were the ones that made the decision as to where they thought the time should be prioritised. It didn't come from you?

[Gareth Southgate]

No. Were we all. I mean, I had to go, but.

[Jake Humphrey]

It wasn't like authoritarian.

[Gareth Southgate]

No, no, no.

[Jake Humphrey]

Situation where you're like, this is the house. This is how England runs under Gareth Southgate.

[Gareth Southgate]

No. You know, there are some things where you have to put your marker down, you know, so the culture I want to set, that has to come from me because I've got to live that. But every other thing, you know, I've got people that are better at those individual areas than I am, more experienced, greater knowledge. My job is to gather all the information and make the best possible decisions with what they're telling me. So I need to give them the most open forum possible to feel like they can speak, that I'm not influencing them. You know, talk in the book that if we're in Team meetings. I tried to speak last from a staff because as soon as I've given an opinion that risks influencing someone else's, not their thinking, but their willingness to share, you know, if they're thinking differently to the leader, who the perception is holds the power in the room, then they're going to be reluctant to go in a completely different direction. I've just seen that in so many businesses and so many environments I've been in where leader comes in, gives a speech and everybody people are thinking, I wouldn't quite have done it that way, but I better not say anything. So I think so many organizations underperform because that environment exists.

[Jake Humphrey]

Can I just pick up on the point about the way the press spoke about England? Was it a rugby player that said to us he watches football and sees every player playing within themselves? Yes. Who was it? Was it Johnny Wilkinson? Yes, I thought so. So a long time ago when we spoke with Johnny Wilson, he talked about dealing with other people's opinions of you and he said he watches football and he sees fear gripping every professional footballer in the country because of the amount of social media scrutiny, the way the media write about footballers. Have you ever allowed yourself to kind of think about what the game would look like if we just spoke positively about these young people that are doing the best to represent their club and represent their country?

[Gareth Southgate]

Jake, I love it. And now let's go back to the real world and what we. Because.

[Jake Humphrey]

But why are we in this world where we want to be hypercritical and then say, now go and perform as a 21 year old in front of the world, like how can we. And then pillory them for playing badly? It feels like we'll create the problem and then we'll criticize them for being part of the problem. As is that fair?

[Gareth Southgate]

Completely. And that's why internally, when you're coaching, you've got to create an environment where you're balancing all of that noise that they're getting externally. So you've got to allow them as much freedom as you possibly can. You know, I talk to my players regularly about, you know, if we're not trying things, if you're not making mistakes, then we're probably not really going for it. You know, I'm expecting you to make mistakes and I'm not going to criticize you for making mistakes. Like I will criticize you if you make a mistake and then you don't look for the ball the next time I will criticize if you make a mistake, lose the ball and you don't chase back quickly. But the actual process, especially for attacking players because they've got to fail to beat somebody is hard. The odds are in the favor of the defender. So if I'm running at you, you're going to probably stop me because even by just putting a foot out, you might get lucky. So forwards are going to fail because they've got to try things and it's harder. But then you're waiting for one moment where they beat the defender, whip the cross in and bang, you win the game. You've got to keep reinforcing that because their brain and all the noise around them is telling them the opposite. And it's the noise I always talk about, you know, where does pressure come from? It's the voice in your head, really.

[Damian Hughes]

Yeah.

[Gareth Southgate]

It's how your voice is interpreting all the noise that's around you. Nobody's standing over you. Full pressure. And actually, all that noise doesn't mean anything until you interpret it in your mind.

[Jake Humphrey]

And which player do you look back on in that period or players? And you thought, I really help to lift the pressure there? Because it's a myth to think that these players aren't seeing what's written in the papers or what's said on social media like they are on there.

[Gareth Southgate]

Right.

[Jake Humphrey]

They are using these apps.

[Gareth Southgate]

Yep. Yeah. I mean, I don't know why they do that.

[Jake Humphrey]

Yeah. Did you try to encourage them to not go on?

[Gareth Southgate]

I do know why they do it, because there's a great method of communicating with people.

[Damian Hughes]

Yeah.

[Gareth Southgate]

But unless you're really strong, resilient, can rationalize things, then if you're starting to read all the comments underneath, I can't see how that's ever going to help performance.

[Jake Humphrey]

Is anyone strong enough to deal with that?

[Gareth Southgate]

Well, I'd say no in reality, because the volume now of that debate is so intense. So, yeah, I remember talking to players quite often after their debut. How did you find it? Yeah, great. I can remember, I think Harry Maguire's debut was in Lithuania. How did you find it? Yeah, great. Got, you know, didn't make any mistakes. Great. How about next time you try to be the best player you can be, you know?

[Jake Humphrey]

But I said, yeah, the number one criteria for a professional footballer was to make no mistakes.

[Gareth Southgate]

Yeah.

[Jake Humphrey]

Yeah, that's. That's restrictive in itself, isn't it?

[Gareth Southgate]

It is, but I think if I, you know, if I think back to when I started playing, you know, my aim when I first got in the team was just to stay in the team.

[Jake Humphrey]

Yeah.

[Gareth Southgate]

And your thought process is. Well, if, if I don't make any mistakes, you know, it's totally understandable. I could probably achieve. And so again, as a coaching team, you've got to work doubly hard to. Okay, that's fine, that's a certain level. But if we're going to be world class, then we could have a different mindset. And of course you've got players that have, you know, they don't see that risk in the same way, you know, their personality, if you profiled them, they see opportunity, not risk. And so they're more likely to go for those things naturally with the other boys, you've really got to keep encouraging and when they fail, come on, you can go again, you know, so it's all trying to affect the psychology really.

[Damian Hughes]

But can I ask you about that voice and the voice in your head that brings the pressure? How did you learn to manage and control that voice for you?

[Gareth Southgate]

Yeah, took me 52 years. I've just started to crack it on the last three because I was there as a player. So. Period. Well, actually going into €96, I was flying and I played really well in the tournament on a. On biggest stage I'd ever been on because I was in flow, wasn't worrying about what might go wrong. I knew I was in form, I knew I was fit. I was reading things well. When I missed the penalty, the next six months of my England career, not so much club because club always back to the comfort. But England career now can't afford to give a goal away here. You know, if I give a goal away, then media are going to be on me again. And so I'm now playing, trying not to make mistakes as you know, it's disaster. You can't, you're never going to perform at the level you need to. So what flipped that for me was I got dropped. Glenn Hoddle dropped me. I was mortified at the time. I went back to my room and then actually I was relieved. I'm out the team. And then it was kind of, well, hang on a minute, that's not good. So how do we get back and. Okay, well, now I realize I've probably been through the worst that can happen is I'm out the team and if I reflect on missing the penalty career wise, that's probably the worst thing that can happen to me as a professional sportsman, bar injury. So actually it's all, you know, no inhibitions now I can go for it. So it was a real, you know, it was a six month period because we didn't have People like Damian to come in and help talk us through all of that. In those days, you had to work it out for yourself, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. But I think somebody skilled like Damian is in working you through that journey would have helped fast track the learning and make that more structured, whereas you had to kind of work it out for yourself. But I got through it, and the resilience that was built because of it helped me for the rest of my life.

[Jake Humphrey]

So you realize there then, that just because something is hard for you, it isn't necessarily bad for you. Do you think you missing the penalty in 1996 was directly related to the fact that you were the England coach that managed to get England to a successful penalty shootout in 2018?

[Gareth Southgate]

Yeah, without a doubt.

[Jake Humphrey]

Why?

[Gareth Southgate]

Well, because I've become a world expert on penalty shoots.

[Jake Humphrey]

Now.

[Gareth Southgate]

What did you do to your players then? Well, firstly, to go back to your. You asked about how did I control the. You know, it was all these experiences along the way that taught me how to control the voice in my head. You've probably talked before to Guiller, Jordy and people who've done enormous penalty studies. So, again, this was an area we threw open to our analysis team. Right, you guys go away. We need. We'll need to win a penalty shootout and we need to get the British public out from behind the sofa. Every time one, we go to one. So what areas can we work out? And they, you know, all of this has been made public over the last few years, really. So I don't feel like I'm giving away intellectual property that's going to cost England next year. But, you know, they analyzed everything from the moment the referee blows the final whistle. So actually, how long have we got to talk to the team? Because, you know, we don't want to talk too early and then the players are hanging around. Well, actually, we know there's at least three and a half minutes. Why? Or because every TV station in the world goes to a commercial break and they won't start the penalty shootout earlier than that. So, okay, so we've got three and a half minutes. What are we doing in that time? What. What do the players need at that moment? What type of communication? And then you're going through.

[Jake Humphrey]

And what was the type of communication they needed?

[Gareth Southgate]

Well, had to be really clear, concise, you know, in moments of pressure, when I talk to people from the military or, you know, they're used to communicating and there's got to be, you know, less is good, I think, you know, you can't be using elaborate language, you can't be talking for too long because the ability to take information on at that moment is really difficult. You know, half time is tough, but end of a game, waiting for a penalty shootout, really, really concise. Again, I think I got better at that. We had four shootouts. By the last one, we'd cleared all, everybody away, all the subs away. Communication. I'd kind of prepared it the day before because I knew if we were at that moment, I know exactly what needs to be said.

[Jake Humphrey]

What did you say in your final one?

[Gareth Southgate]

Basically, reassurance that you've got a process. You know, we're in control. So one of the important things was the narrative for years was it's a lottery, you can't practice it. But actually having control over situations like that is critical or perception of control. So we know the techniques that we need to use. You know, we weren't working to improve an Ivan Toney. He scores every week. But we did need to work with Kieran Trippier before Moscow, with Harry Maguire before he buried his one in the top corner against Italy. So, you know, we could show you video footage of Maguire practicing that penalty in training. Boom, boom, boom. So that doesn't make it any less pressure. I'm sure he was still incredibly nervous, but he had a routine and so he feels in control of that moment. He knows what he's going to do now. You've got to stick to the plan. So by the point we got to, all the work had been done. It's just reminding them that you've got a process, stick with what you've been practicing. Yeah, that was it. Simple as that, really. You don't need to be whipping them up at that moment. It's actually a.

[Jake Humphrey]

But it felt good, though, the first one when Eric dies, I bet you were like, did it put some of those 96 demons away for you?

[Gareth Southgate]

Well, there were so many layers to that shootout because there's obviously the personal narrative, there's the fact, you know, we had to at least win a knockout if the team were going to show progression in that tournament. We needed to win a knockout game. That's the first knockout game. So we know before the game really perceived success or failure of this tournament rests on this knockout game. Then we go to a penalty shootout. You know, if we don't change this narrative, you can imagine what the narrative, the stories about me would have been. Ah, well, is it any wonder we've lost a shootout because he got us knocked out in 96, so. And also belief in all the processes we'd been going through on the details across all these different areas of the game. So there definitely felt a feeling of redemption. But of course that doesn't help the players that played with me in 96. So. But it was a start of a process of hopefully, you know, if England get a penalty shootout next summer, I think the whole nation is looking differently at that because we've won three of our last four, whereas we'd lost six of our seven.

[Damian Hughes]

Did you ever tell them about your experience in 96?

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[Gareth Southgate]

Yeah, I'm not somebody that worries about showing vulnerability. I think the players needed to understand that I had empathy. I mean, you're not always going to be able to directly relate to a group of people that you're managing and leading. But in that instance, having been a player was helpful. You know, I don't think you have to have been a top player to be a coach, which was lucky because I wasn't a top player. But in those examples, the, the fact that you've walked in their shoes and you know how difficult it is and you can tell them why you didn't. You know, I couldn't. I failed to execute a skill under pressure. So how can I help you to be able to master that skill? And this is why I think it's important and this is what I think can help you.

[Damian Hughes]

And you said showing vulnerability can be helpful. What are the benefits of you as a leader doing that?

[Gareth Southgate]

I think people see you're human, they get that you're opening up for them. You know, you're bearing everything, you're leaving yourself a bit exposed, but actually you're confident enough to do that. So it's not a sign of weakness. I'd say it's a sign of strong confidence that, yeah, I don't mind standing up in front of this group of alpha males. And superstar players and talking about now, by the way, I mean, not every story can be about things that went wrong because they'll start to think as you've got a clue what he's doing. So. But you know, I think, I think in that, you know, it's a very macho. You've been around sport long enough to know men's sport, how that all, what that all looks like. But I think people are changing as well. The way we lead people is changing. I don't think they'll just give respect to an authoritarian leader. You've got to earn their respect even more. I think younger generations, it's not about a title, it's how you treat them, it's how you engage with them. So I think that timing of the way my style is always going to be that way because that's how I am. And maybe the timing of that is good for me that professional football, professional sports changing a little bit. The expected communication isn't just directive, demanding. There are moments you've got to do that. But people want to see what we call softer skills, but critical skills, really, it's not soft.

[Damian Hughes]

Yeah.

[Jake Humphrey]

Talking about critical skills, two years after that penalty shootout, there was another one against Italy, this time in the final. And I've read about the work that you did with Casper Berry, the poker player, and I think about the relevance of that moment where you made late substitutions specifically for a penalty shootout. I mean, I saw the criticism that also came your way after the penalty shootout because of the result primarily. But I'm just really interested in how you got to a point through maybe some of the work you did with him where in that pressure cook a white hot moment at Wembley against Italy in a final, to still be able to make what you believe to be the right decisions, regardless of what the external opinion of those decisions might become or might be at the time.

[Gareth Southgate]

For us in that moment, it was about the process that gives us the best percentage chance of winning. And you know, people criticized Raheem Sterling for not taking a penalty Jack Grealish, but that wasn't their call. I didn't put Raheem in that position on that night. He was a more experienced player. He was an important, crucial player for us. But his penalty record was 33%, Marcus Rashford's 87%.

[Jake Humphrey]

So these were data driven decisions.

[Gareth Southgate]

Well, they were evidence based. Now, if we're not going to go that route, then we just toss the coin and go back to what we were doing for years before. So, you know, had we left Raheem on and not used Marcus. You know, had Raheem missed and maybe he would have scored, but had he missed, we'd have been going, well, it's 33. Why, of course, marry that up by.

[Jake Humphrey]

Going, right, he's 33 and he's over 80, but he's been sitting on the subspecial. He's been playing. He's played well. He was good. He was in a good form this week. He came to me with a. A bit of a fear a couple of days ago. How do you balance the kind of the data with the human?

[Gareth Southgate]

And that's fair because you've still got to factor in all those aspects and clearly only being on the pitch for a very short period isn't. Isn't helpful. But, you know, that's a big percentage shift and there's plenty of, you know, World Cup Final, Argentina put Dybala on in the last minute. He takes penalty scores. Nobody's talking about it. When Harry Kane missed his second penalty against France in Qatar, some people said, oh, he shouldn't have let him take a second pen. There's two parts to that. In the World cup final, Mbappe scored three. And then also, if we hadn't let Kane take it and we'd let somebody else take it and he'd missed. Can you imagine what? So, again, as a leader, you've got to accept that people will judge on the outcome. But to your point about the poker player that came in, his point to us was, you had a good hand there, you were right to play the hand, you lost it. But if you play that hand 10 times, you're going to win eight of them. So you've got to gamble on the hand you had.

[Jake Humphrey]

Did that help you afterwards, when you thought about that, despite the result? Well, I played the hand I have.

[Gareth Southgate]

Well, we had that meet like eight months later. So I then was thinking back, because we then got a decision on do we stick with the process for our next penalty shootout or do we change it? And that discussion around the decision you made with the evidence and information you had at the time, do you still think that was right? That did affect my thinking moving forward because there was a risk of ripping everything up that had succeeded against Colombia, had succeeded against Switzerland in a Nations League game, but we've lost one now. So are we going to stick with it or are we going to change? And we slightly refined one of the things we actually, we practiced a little bit less. So I think one of the things in 2021, Marcus had almost practiced too many times. He was trying to be too perfect in practice because the goalkeepers had started to read where he'd go. So if you look at the penalty he takes in that final, he takes way longer than ever before. Now normally people talk about rushed penalty ticks, not taking long enough over the penalty. He actually takes longer. Now he might feel differently about that, but my sense was, and I said to him months later, I think because he'd been practicing against goalkeepers in training too often, he was trying to be too perfect. So he's looking for the right in that stanchion area and hits the post. So we, okay, we're going to take fewer penalties next time. There's more pressure on each one. You can only have three, not eight, because actually they lose focus. And we're going to take an extra goalkeeper so that you're not facing the same goalkeeper every time as well. So, yeah, of course we win the shootout. So everything is everything, right? I don't know in football. Well, yeah, but I think the more you build up the percentages in your favor, then logically to me you've got a better chance of succeeding.

[Damian Hughes]

Can I speak to you about some of the tougher calls that you made as well, Gav, like navigating the retirement of Wayne Rooney from the international setup. It seems that you handled that with thought and consideration. Would you tell us how you came to decisions like that?

[Gareth Southgate]

Yeah, I mean, they are big calls. So you're very conscious that whilst I talk a lot about people and managing people and people that think I'm, you know, empathetic and hugging everybody and, you know, there's decisions that have to be made and you've got to make big calls. And Wayne's one of our greatest ever players now, I have to say he could have made that incredibly difficult because we know that one of the hardest things for an athlete is to accept they're on the decline. You know, one of the reasons they are as good as they are is because they've got unbelievable self belief. They won't want to admit that they're coming towards the end. You know, in the second game I had, he'd started the first game, I said, look, I'm not going to start you in the second. But he, you know, for a top player, his humility and his awareness was incredible. Really? Because he said, no, look, I'm not getting into Manchester United's team. I don't expect therefore, just to start for England. So play that out a few months down the line and he's heading towards the end at United and, you know, there were players that were playing better than him. Now, all I could do then is show as much respect as possible for the career he'd had. You know, I played, played with him in his, on his debut, so I wanted to be as respectful of what he'd achieved and go and see him and talk it through. But the reality of that is the way he received that information made that much more comfortable for me because that could have gone anywhere, that conversation. You know, we've seen those things happen. So his humility, his acceptance, and we all have a choice in those moments, don't we? It's a bit of a reminder that delivering bad news is difficult. But how you receive bad news, I think the person on the other side would always remember that, because I could have left with a very different view of Wayne. I'm telling you a story where he comes out with enormous credit. I probably wouldn't have talked about it if it'd been the other way, but in the back of my mind I'd have been thinking, yeah, that didn't go so well.

[Jake Humphrey]

What is the secret to delivering that kind of news, particularly when it's a winner like Wayne Rooney? Is it, Let me tell you about all the amazing things that you've done for me and will continue to do. But by the way, here's some bad news. Or are you just like, listen, Wayne, I've made a call and you're not in my plans, or.

[Gareth Southgate]

I think there are different types of tough conversation. So there's tough performance conversations where, you know you're probably going to be with us for the next few games, Jake, but we need more. So I need to highlight that. Firstly, where do you see your performance and are we seeing it in the same? Because maybe it isn't a tough conversation because maybe you're saying to me, actually, I've been struggling with this, this and this, and okay, well, how can I help you? For a coach, that's much easier. So let's try that way first and save ourselves a lot of heartache. But if you're not seeing what I'm seeing now, I've got to say, look, now, look, I like this, this and this, but I think you've got to be better in this area. And how do I help you get there? Because if I don't highlight that, the issues I'm seeing and I'll just leave you out the team in three weeks, that's a shock, that's a harder conversation to have and I actually haven't helped you. I haven't helped to coach you to be the best you can be. So. So although that might feel like a tough conversation, by avoiding it and you're then out of the team, I'm creating an even harder conversation further down the line. So I think when people put those conversations off, which I did a couple of times as a young coach actually, they're storing up trouble for themselves. So I would urge people have the coaching conversation. I heard Steve Peters talk about it. You know, frame it. If you're delivering that discussion, frame it. I'm trying to help you, but it's coming from a place of love, if you like, I'm trying to help you get better. It's not. I'm trying to highlight that you're poor at this. You know, you're gonna be a better player, you're gonna be a better person for this information I'm handing on, which means that then the other conversation where you're delivering bad news, I don't think you should spend too long on that. I don't think people hear too much. Once you've told them that bad news, I think they switch off.

[Jake Humphrey]

And was that what the conversation was with Wayne?

[Gareth Southgate]

Well, I think we were further down the line. So, you know, I'd ask to go and see him. That's not normally a good discussion, so he's semi prepared for what's coming. But to broaden it more generally, if I've got to leave a player out of a game, then I think it's tell him the bad news. No use fluffing up, but then give them the opportunity to come back later when they've had time to process their thoughts, go through what they're really thinking, what their emotions are, simply because, as I said, I think if you waffle for a long time and try and make yourself feel better, because I'm giving them a bit of sugar here as well as the bad news. I don't think they're hearing any of that. I think all they think, you know, I know I've been dropped from teams. All I'm thinking is, right, I'm out. And what does that mean? And I'm away with the fairies, then.

[Damian Hughes]

So how do you think people will, in the years to come, write about your tenure?

[Gareth Southgate]

Yeah. I mean, some people will have loved it. You know, it's the most successful period since 66 to 72, because even Sir Elf didn't qualify in 74 for the World Cup. So even he ended up leaving on a bit of a low Others will say we should have won with the team that we had. And you've got to live with that as a leader. You know, you're defined in football by trophies. But I think on a broader scale, if I was talking to youngsters about leadership and you've got to think about what was there when you started, you know, what did you leave behind? How did you affect the people that were with you? What are their memories of it? How did you make people feel along that journey? Journey. So there's, you know, the risk in purely defining and people will say, oh well, he's not going to define it by trophies because he didn't win. So I'm accepting that, I'm accepting that. But we have to be broader than that. Otherwise life for most people in the population, it's going to be pretty miserable. So we have to have a better balance on those things.

[Jake Humphrey]

And you said earlier on that some scars still remain from the, the way that it finished England. What have you found over the last 15 months has been the best way to help those scars to heal.

[Gareth Southgate]

I think some things will always be there, but I've enjoyed. Well, I'm now in something else you'd have talked about over the years with other people. I'm now in a career transition moment almost. Okay, I've had 37 years, 15 defined as a player, never had the chance to think about because I went from player to manager overnight. So this is the first period where am I going to stay in football? Am I going to do something completely different? And a lot of people my sort of age are going through that process. I think, you know, I sold a business or I've stepped away from a big role and what do I want to do with the rest of my life? I think a lot of people are looking for purpose. You know, I had amazing purpose because it was my country. So replicating the size of the job I had and having purpose, that's close to impossible really. So I'm not against going in a completely different direction. You know, I want to help young people. I want to help this, change this narrative around our country that the country's a mess, you know, we should all be moving away. Well, let's change that, you know, let's give young people hope. Let's think about how we mentor young people and none of us want to turn the television and hear that every day. It's just a self fulfilling prophecy. So. But we've all got a chance to do something every day to change that, Help guide young people, mentor young People, whatever that might be. You know, we're an amazing country with so much talent. People want to have businesses here because the legal system's the best in the world.

[Jake Humphrey]

So how much more valuable is it for young people to be told? Actually in so many areas, life has never been better. The opportunities are greater than they've ever been. And that's not for young people. I think that's for you as well. I think, you know, you've, you've learned anything, is that you can't control everything. Right?

[Gareth Southgate]

Yeah.

[Jake Humphrey]

So what happens next is probably, arguably not within your control. So it's maybe time to explore and just see what, what the world gives you, what the universe offers up.

[Gareth Southgate]

Definitely.

[Jake Humphrey]

Finally, I wonder what that guy in the middle would have made of the journey that you've been on.

[Gareth Southgate]

Yeah, yeah, it was my granddad, he was a, in the Royal Marines. And I mean, I've been blessed that my, my parents gave me a loving start. So, I mean, you'd have heard of attachment theory where the first few hours, weeks of a kid's life is hugely important. They feel that love. So there's this security that gives you, there's a trust. You know, a lot of young people find it hard to give trust because they'll not experience those early years in that environment. And then because my granddad had standards of the basics, you know, his shoes were polished every morning because he had that military background. He always had a tie on, he take his hat off if he saw walk past a lady. So he was around when I started playing for Crystal palace. He didn't quite get there to see me play for England. But without a doubt, when I stood and sung the national anthem the first time in an England shirt, he was one of the people I was thinking of.

[Jake Humphrey]

Yeah, well, he would indeed be proud, as should you. There's no doubt about the fact that you changed the narrative around the England team. You changed the trajectory of the England team. There was hard times towards the end of that story, but in some ways the hard times hopefully frame just how incredible and special the good times were. And I think you are a voice for the future that we all need to hear.

[Gareth Southgate]

Well, thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak.

[Jake Humphrey]

Damian.

[Damian Hughes]

Jake.

[Jake Humphrey]

It was really interesting understanding the things that he did at England to improve the culture, the mindset, the self belief of the players. And I also honestly think that's work that Thomas Tuchel and others will benefit from. But the other half of the interview was the clear pain that you could see in his eyes actually when talking about the end with England. And I really hope that Gareth, as much as this book that he's released is about leadership, I also hope it stands as a testament to the fact that we need to be kinder to people. And I know that often isn't the currency in football, but this was a guy giving England their greatest results since Sir Alf Ramsey and pretty much hounded out of the job. Right. You know, he said he left because the perception around him had changed. If the perception was different, he wouldn't have left. And I just got this sense that it remains really unfair.

[Damian Hughes]

I think the second half where he talks around the culture of the England team. You don't need to understand football to be able to take lessons from that in wherever we are, you know, in any culture, whether you're in a school, a business, whether you're thinking about it in relation to your family. I think what he's learned and what he's sharing so generously in his book and in the conversation with us is invaluable. I love the stuff about the poker chips and giving people the opportunity to decide, where are you going to put your money? Where your mouth is? Where are you going to prioritize? We can't do everything, or we can do anything, but we can't do everything. So where are we going to invest our time? I think your definition of a leader is do you leave a situation better than what you inherited it? And I think when we look at it through that lens, not whether he won a trophy or not, the answers are unequivocal. Yeah, of course he did.

[Jake Humphrey]

What about when he said he didn't have his family? Like that bit for me was heartbreaking.

[Gareth Southgate]

Right.

[Jake Humphrey]

When you're the England boss, you're winning games. He then says against Holland, he felt very little thrill because he knew the storm that was coming if things didn't work out and his family weren't even there. Like he kept them away from England games. That is how vitriolic it had got. How sad is that?

[Damian Hughes]

Well, to me, it's a sign of a sickness in society, isn't it? That means that we have to look at ourselves rather than for him as a leader. The fact that you've got somebody in charge, that's out there in the arena doing the best, and they would be worried about the safety of what their family would be subjected to. That's something that should give anybody listening to this pause for a moment of self reflection.

[Jake Humphrey]

You've just hit the nail on the head there. The criticism of Gareth as the England boss was not a reflection on him or the results he was getting. It's a reflection on society 100%. And I just hope that people read the book, understand the man behind the England job, and reflect positively on a guy who, from the very best place possible, with a good heart, a kind guy, changed England. And by the way, what was he like with our team before and after the record today?

[Damian Hughes]

Exactly what you see. Decent, humble, caring, courteous. I remember when we interviewed Siya Kolisi, the captain of the South African rugby union team who's back to back world champions. And I remember saying to my wife in the conversation afterwards, I've met a man that's playing a different game than what most of us are. That's a man that should be in a position of influence to shape society as a whole. And I feel exactly the same about Gareth. I feel he's got a wider role in society to play than just being the England manager.

[Jake Humphrey]

Indeed. Thank you, mate.

[Damian Hughes]

Thanks, mate.

[Jake Humphrey]

Well, look, huge thanks to Gareth for such an honest, reflective conversation. From that fresh faced young manager in 2016 to leaving as England's most successful manager in over 50 years. What a journey it's been. And I don't believe he gets the applause, the plaudits or the praise for what he did as England manager. And I hope that this conversation might have changed your mind about him. If you're one of those who was in the Gareth Southgate negativity camp. And listen, if this conversation resonated with you, whether it's the leadership, the resilience, the importance of finding purpose after a career transition, please share this with someone who needs to hear it. Look, we give away these podcasts for free, right? It's very important to us, but the more you can support us, the more we can grow this channel. Most people that listen don't already subscribe, so if you can do that, I would be so pleased. So please hit subscribe on whatever app you're listening. Please share these conversations with people and don't forget, if you want more incredible leaders and coaches, we've got episodes with Eddie Jones, Steve Hanson, Thomas Frank, Serena Wiegerman, Sean Dyche and so many more. You can find them all on YouTube and on the High Performance app. Thanks for being with us and we'll see you next time.

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