Interviewer 2 (2:57)

We go back and tell us about that incident with Clive Davis that you've account in your show because you know that, that opening night party to introduce you to America. Because what really resonated with me in your retelling of it was the wisdom of your dad from Connors Key Working men's club that came back and reminded you to show you that doesn't matter how big a stage you are, common sense is common sense.

Gary Barlow (3:20)

Yeah, yeah it was a, a real moment that night because, because we'd had all these, so we've had all these years, we've you know, played through the clubs, joined this band. The band's been successful, we've been all over the world. It's gone so crazy that we've split up and I've just, I've just played on every stage at this point and I'd been in every situation, I'd worked my way through all these different things and I'd got to hear Flying to America. I had a single that I didn't write, was a cover version but Clive was happy. This is the big launch. Great, great, great. And you're gonna be on my pre Grammy party tonight. So this is, this is a party that happens before the Grammys happen. So now I'm like Grammys, New York, Clive Davis, this is it. So I get on the Concord, they fly me over, I land there and as I land I go into Clive's office because we've got an afternoon rehearsal and he says it's going to be amazing. You're going to launch yourself tonight. We're going to play the new song. However, I've got a remix of it. So the word remix straight away because you know I've, I'm a, I'm in a pop band. I'm not in a dance band, I'm in like a pop band. I'm used to like radio music. So on comes this mix and literally the slices of my vocal in this track like that pieces have all been moved and the verse is where the chorus used to be and it's all jumbled up and I'm sat there listening and I'm thinking, this is not right. But he's Clive Davis. I'm just a guy from Frodsham. What do I know? I think I've got to do it. This is the doorway to America. I've got to get on there tonight. So we go to this rehearsal and I'm stood on the stage and. And the mute the backing tracks on. And I'm thinking, where the hell is. I just don't know where anything is. And I know what I should have done. I should have said, I'm going home. I'll see you next year at the pre Grammy party. Because this isn't right. But I didn't. I thought, I'm gonna re. I'm gonna learn this thing and I'm gonna go on and I'm gonna kill the audience tonight like I always do. So, thinking I had two hours then to spare so I could learn this thing, they dragged me into this room where it's like a reception for this pre Grammy thing. And there's like 500 people and the record label literally wheeling me round, you know, like the boss of MTV America. Hey, nice to meet you. And I'm. I'm loving this. The boss of MTV America, you know, VH1. Oh, nice to meet. You Know, it's like literally a who's who. Aretha Franklin and her manager. Nice to meet you. I've realized two hours has gone by. I can't even remember what this bloody track starts. Like, never mind finishes. So I literally, like, grab someone from the label. They've got a cassette of the. Of the backing track. I go into the dressing room and I start. I played it once, twice, round. And I just. I'm just thinking, there's no way out of this. It doesn't make any sense. I'm not joining the dots here. And as I'm thinking that.

Interviewer 1 (6:36)

Which is so alien for you.

Gary Barlow (6:38)

No, this is just something I never do. I'm like. I'm the guy who rehearses for six weeks before one song's performed. It's just like, what am I doing here? And I was trying to think, how do I get out of this? And at the point I'm thinking I need to just go. I can hear him introducing me on the stage. And I realized, I've got to go through this now. And I just thought the magic was going to come to me. I just thought, I've had so much luck over the years, something's going to help me get through the next three minutes. And of course, everything was wrong. I was singing in A bit where I shouldn't have been singing and the music was playing notes that it wasn't playing, that my voice was singing. It was just the worst. The worst three minutes. I think of my whole life where you just want the ground to swallow you up. And also realizing that this is. This is the end. There's no coming back from this. There's no second performance to launch yourself in America. This was it. This was what every artist wanted. And I got it. And this is where I am with it. And I remember wandering off the stage and thinking, that's the end. That is it. I'm going home. And. And it was fun. It was very telling because the whole day I'd been in New York, I had minimum 8 to 12 people around me. You know, you're great. You're going to be good tonight. You know, great. Let's get to know each other. Let's exchange numbers. When I walked off the stage, there was nobody. And I walked off the side of the stage into the reception at the Plaza, through the doors, and walked all the way down Fifth Avenue to my hotel, and there was nobody with me. And it was raining. It was like, that's the end of that.

Interviewer 2 (8:29)

And what was that words of advice that you remembered that your dad had given you at that moment?

Gary Barlow (8:34)

Well, my dad always wanted me to rehearse the rehearsal for him. Was his only way of. Because my dad was a working man, so, you know, he had like two jobs. And his only way of relating work to what I did. Cause it's not work. What I do was the rehearsal when he used to see me in that bedroom for hours upon hours. That's his relation to work. Putting the work in that ladders. So when those words come back to me, you'd never do anything without rehearsal. That's why you need to rehearse. It's why you need to prepare. And I hadn't done any of it, just expecting the angels to rescue me. And it. And it doesn't work like that. It was the beginning of the end. That was. That was really the start of. When I said earlier about the confidence. Once you. Someone chips a piece off, that piece becomes many pieces that slowly fall off.

Interviewer 1 (9:34)

So you're now in this period where the guy who was. Who's become your rival, Robbie, is having superstardom. You've had this awful episode in America. You've come back home, like, I'm guessing at this point, if you've lost your record deal, you don't have a record deal. So you're not Performing, you're not working. You've lost everything. That is kind of your North Star that you understand. Yeah. What was going on in your head at that point?

Gary Barlow (10:00)

Well, I'll take it year by year because it went. Went across about seven years, this did. And so the first year I was blaming everybody else. The second year I was blaming myself. And the third year was becoming real, that that was the end. There was no way I could ever see myself recording or singing. I'd stopped singing completely stopped playing on a piano. And I hadn't done anything for. For like three years, I'm gonna say, right. And it was driving me crazy.

Interviewer 1 (10:37)

So what's your day look like at this point in your life?

Gary Barlow (10:41)

So it was an interesting one because as. As my sort of career life went down the toilet, my personal life was on and up. Cause we'd had two kids, right. And so. So life was. Life outside the studio was great. And so I'd do this thing where I hear this a lot, where I'd say, all right, I'm going into the studio now, everybody. And dad had go off to do his day's work. And I'd literally sit in there and I'd just be looking around the room thinking, what am I gonna do? What could I do that would be useful to anything? And I'd sit in there and I'd look at the clock and I'd come out at 4 and go, anyway, that was a good day. And I'd act this day of being in the studio, pretending I was doing. So I was doing nothing some days, just sort of watching the piano, thinking, I used to write big hits on that thing. And I just. It was. It was. It was slowly going insane. Really?

Interviewer 1 (11:40)

Really?

Gary Barlow (11:41)

Yeah.

Interviewer 2 (11:41)

Felt that bad?

Gary Barlow (11:42)

Oh, it was. It was really dark. Really dark. All that work, all that time. And. And you realize also with music that it just qualifies you for absolutely nothing. Nothing in the real world. Nothing. I. I was qualified for nothing. I couldn't. I couldn't get a job in a petrol station or on a till or. I mean, stacking shelves or. There was nothing I could do.

Interviewer 1 (12:08)

So you were in this beautiful house, you'd had all this great success, but you were totally empty at this point.

Gary Barlow (12:16)

Because I wanted to make music. Yeah. I love music so much, and I wasn't even listening to music at that time. It's. I really detached myself from music.

Interviewer 1 (12:26)

So what did the piano represent for you then? At that moment, you say you looked.

Gary Barlow (12:29)

At it and thought, well, the piano was the. With the enemy. Because the piano was. Remember, the piano is the vein to all things good. Because when I sit at the piano, magic happens, you know, because this song that I'm making today will go on a record and people will be singing it in stadiums. And pianos are good place now. It wasn't because piano didn't get. I couldn't even play it properly. It was just like a different language at that point. And it was just. It was so frustrating. It was because it was totally out of your control. And also, it wasn't. It was also a time when, you know, if it happened now, I could probably just sit on Twitter and go, hey, guys, how you doing? And you'd get lots of message. Hey, lovely to see you could have a false sort of reading on. It just felt like there was nobody listening. There was nobody out there. And of course, I do know now that there was lots and lots of people out there.

Interviewer 1 (13:29)

Did you truly believe it was the end then?

Gary Barlow (13:31)

Oh, yeah. Completely. Completely. There was no way back. There was no way back.

Interviewer 2 (13:41)

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Interviewer 1 (14:42)

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Interviewer 2 (15:44)

What surprises me about that is almost like the fragility of your confidence, you know, because the bit up until. Take that as you describe, and you built your confidence on really strong evidence. You've done your 10,000 hours, you've sat on the stages, you've watched the audience, then you've had somebody that's bolstered your confidence in the world of commercial pop. But then you've got lots of evidence again that says you can do this stuff. And I'm just really intrigued as to why that one incident, as horrific as it sounds, was able to dismantle all the evidence that you'd accumulated prior to this.

Gary Barlow (16:26)

Yeah, it's because it all ends up up here. It defeated me. My mind left me completely. And it's a funny thing, creativity. It's. And it is delicate. It is very delicate. And it's why I said earlier about the managers. You've. If you're a manager of somebody or you're a. A partner of somebody who's creative, it's just that you've got to be so careful around them because that line of feeling confident about what you're doing, it's the only way you can create. I just don't believe someone who doubts themselves can create wholeheartedly. It just doesn't work without that belief. It's not something that's tangible. It's. It's. It doesn't exist, creativity until it comes out. And it has to come out of a vessel that really, truly believes in what it's doing.

Interviewer 1 (17:20)

So what was the thing then that had derailed you so much in that period? Was it that for the first time in your whole life you had failure as a musician? Was it the success of Robbie or was it the fact that. I mean, I remember this period like the public reveling in it, people enjoying the collapse of someone who had been such a huge star.

Gary Barlow (17:41)

The shaming was hard because it's a very public thing and the. It Made going out very hard because people would say things like, they'd say, Robbie's doing great, isn't he? You know, or, or you. There's a number of phrases I could, you know, and, and, and soon as that happens, that's now three months of being at home without leaving. That's what it would be for me. Because it was just so excruciating to you just wanted to crawl into a hole. And sort of mentally for me, the one thing that I, I was being very clever with is that I was putting weight on. And the more weight I put on, the less people recognize me, which meant people weren't saying things. So I went through this whole period then of, of being unhappily overweight but kind of happy because it was, it was doing something for me. Yeah, it's a great coat of armor. And I'd killed the pop star, so it was like I'd controlled something for the first time in ages. And it sounds, it sounds incredibly dark what I'm saying here, but that's the way I was thinking at that point.

Interviewer 1 (18:54)

What were you eating at that point? What was your relationship?

Gary Barlow (18:56)

Everything really. Oh yeah, everything. Yeah. It's a full time sport.

Interviewer 1 (19:01)

So was it a relationship with food thing or was it a, an issue with like a body image thing or.

Gary Barlow (19:09)

I think it all spurred from the shaming really. I think it all came from that. I wanted to go out, but I didn't want to go out because of the thing, you know. And also we were, you know, kid. The kids were going to school and things and I wanted to go to school and be part of the football practices and all these things. And as I was, I couldn't do that. And so this really answered a whole heap of questions for me. And I felt incredibly proud of myself at the time. I thought I'd. This is fantastic. You know, I've hidden, you know, this is brilliant. I can go anywhere and do anything.

Interviewer 1 (19:44)

You can't hide from yourself.

Gary Barlow (19:45)

No, no.

Interviewer 2 (19:47)

That's such a powerful word, that shame. And I think it's worth exploring it because I think that's what like it comes loaded with so much fear.

Gary Barlow (19:57)

Yeah.

Interviewer 2 (19:58)

You know, like even as you're saying it, to me it feels quite a foreboding thought. What was it that was causing you shame?

Gary Barlow (20:07)

We, we were in an era of media where there was no hold barred, you could do anything, say anything about anybody. And I specifically remember a few headlines that were in newspapers at the time particularly. I had a bad relationship with a guy that wrote at the sun, who really, really went for me in a big way. And his headlines would be, you know.

Interviewer 1 (20:33)

Remember the headlines? Exactly.

Gary Barlow (20:34)

Relight my Friar Back for poured. And there'd be pictures of me overweight, you know, coming out of a pub or something. But the big thing was the Robbie success, because the Robbie success was like Channel 5 made a documentary on it and all that. And of course, I saw it all and watched it all. Watched it twice. And why would you do that? I don't know. I don't know. If you just. Yeah, you were obsessed with it, the whole thing. You know, when Rob went on the Brits and, you know, said I was the talent, all those things, I watched them all. And, yeah, it was. It. It's just. That was the shame for me. It was just like, you just like the. The butt of a joke. And Rob talked about it years later and. And he. He actually said that it became something where it wasn't me. It was just a great way of. If he was in a room and he wanted to make them all laugh, he'd make a joke about me. He said I'd get a reaction. He said, it wasn't about you. It was just the fact that I was nervous and I wanted to get this room on my side, and you were the thing I reached for. So that went on for years. That did. So that, for me was the shame.

Interviewer 2 (21:47)

Have you ever read that book by John Ronson called so you've been publicly shamed? No, because it's a fascinating book that I think, like, as you're describing it, I'm hearing bits that he writes about where there was a couple on it that was smoking a cigarette outside the no smoke inside of the Arlington Cemetery in America. And these people got put through the wringer because he was seen to be disrespectful to veterans at a place like that. And he speaks to people whose lives have been ruined. You know, there was one lady who'd made a comment when she went to Africa of, I hope I don't catch AIDS. And in the 12 hours that she was in the air, her life got dismantled by people on sort of social media. And one of the interesting things was, he says, the people that have almost survived that public shaming are the ones that refuse to allow themselves to be shamed. So he talks about when Max Molesley, the Formula One guy, got caught up in a sting with. With prostitutes. And he came out and said, I do like visiting prostitutes. I'm not ashamed of it. And it almost like they couldn't bring him down because of that. What stage did you start to own your successes and refuse to allow yourself to be shamed? Like, what was the process of you.

Gary Barlow (23:03)

I'm not sure I've ever felt like that though, where I refused to be shamed. I mean. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I don't know it.

Interviewer 1 (23:12)

I mean, strange thing though, with what you went through is that you actually must have felt a real sense of injustice as well. I think those people. You can go, that wasn't a great thing to do. Like.

Gary Barlow (23:20)

Yeah.

Interviewer 1 (23:21)

What had you done to deserve this? You must have been thinking that. I guess.

Gary Barlow (23:24)

Yeah. But celebrity was very, you know, pop stars and things. It was just an easy target. And it was such a. It was a story with a bow on it, right, that two guys leave a bat. It was just, it was just made for, you know, and, and to the fact that I wasn't that likable at the time either. So I think a lot of people were like, yeah, yeah, take get cut his. You know, cut him down. You know, it was, it was, it was a. And, and funny that it did need to happen for me, maybe not as brutally as it did, but, you know, when I came out of that and started to work again, I came back with a whole new mind full of what I knew how anything should be and, and, and really needed things to be on my own terms because otherwise I wouldn't be able to do them. It changed from the guy in the 90s, I'll do anything. Just show. Put me in the direction and I'll do it, I'll deliver. It was more like, oh, I know I can't do that unless we do it this way that, you know, you, you come. You know. When we started working together again in 2005, which was when the band sort of reformed, we all had this hesitance because, you know, my. I'm just telling you my story. Everyone had a story around that time and maybe some of them didn't don't sound as dramatic as mine did. But everyone went through something in those years off and so we all came back with a real hesitancy and a sort of like, you know, we don't want to put our hands too close to this fire, you know, and, and it was good that we did. We second guessed a lot of things.

Interviewer 1 (25:07)

And did you discuss it and have a sort of group therapy?

Gary Barlow (25:10)

Very much so. We just. How useful was that we discussed in that first year, we talked more than we'd ever Talked in the 90s as people as as brothers, as humans.

Interviewer 2 (25:20)

So what was like the most telling observation that you heard from your band mates during that time that, that you still hold on to today?

Gary Barlow (25:30)

Well, a band is. It's an interesting thing because, you know, I've known those guys longer than I've known my wife. You know, we've got a very, very close bond together and I think that, you know, the one. I'm safe to say that I. I didn't really want to join a band in the 90s. I didn't really want to. I enjoyed it, but I was always looking forward to going solo. When I came back to the band in 2005, I really felt like I was in a band for the first time I'd ever been. I'd never really been in the band the first time around. When I came back, I felt the strength of other people who were like me. You know, we've all been through something and only us know how it feels like. And it felt so strong. So if you fast forward a few months, we're stood on a stage together and I'm looking down the line and I'm like, wow, this is just the best thing ever. You know, it's so. It's always felt like such a. A safe environment, the band, and went on to be even more safer as the years went on. But it just felt so healing and so, like I say, safe. It felt like the first time had been in a safe place for a long time.

Interviewer 2 (26:43)

See, the very term there that you describe about feeling safe, I find significant. We've had lots of leaders on this podcast that have spoken about the importance of psychological safety to be. Create a space where people can make mistakes, make cock ups, admit errors without feeling you're going to be castigated or made to look silly for it. So how did you go about creating? And I appreciate it wasn't just you, it was your bandmates as well. How did you go about creating an environment where you felt that word safe that you've used a few times?

Gary Barlow (27:19)

It wasn't forced, Interestingly, it wasn't forced at all. One of our big leaders who was a silent leader in the 90s, but he became more of a leader of us when we came back as a group was Jason. He was, he was one of five brothers, so he was used to the family pyramid. And a band is a family pyramid. And you, as one leaves or one leaves the room, you all reshuffle position. It's very interesting. And he came back with a real. He was, he was wise, you know, he he was. He told us a few things and a few situations appeared and he. He resolved them. And he was someone we. We all came to look up to a lot. Me especially has been the one who was always leading. I always felt that pressure of I've got to look like I know what I'm doing, even though I don't know what I'm doing here. You know, it was shared or all of a sudden. And also for me, valuing the people around us then as well. We. We all said when we got back together, right, let's lose all the. This time. Let's just have the good people back. And we did. We got all the good people back and. And they were valued as well. We brought them into our circle. It wasn't us and them, it was. It was us. And that's where we really started going up. The gigs were getting bigger. It was no surprise that it was no surprise. It was good what we were doing, and it was. And it was real. The music we were making was music being made by a band. It was being made by a team. The concerts we were doing were being made by a team, not one person. It was just. It was the antithesis to what it was in the 90s. And it had to be, you know, we were adults now. We were men working together. And it was just, you know, those first sort of six years, they were just sublime, you know, up to Robbie coming back, you know, the perfect end to the story. Rob comes home, you know, we all get to stand equal together. They were just amazing, amazing years. The best years of any of the years in the band were those years.

Interviewer 1 (29:33)

And would they have been the best years if you hadn't had to go through what you went through? I guess the question is, were you able to make peace with the trauma of that really difficult time?

Gary Barlow (29:43)

I think so. I think so, yeah. Yeah. I don't look back on it with fear anymore. I look back on it and often think, especially when I'm telling it in this, that I never want ever people to feel sympathy because it was all my own doing, a lot of it. It really was. But it's still an interesting story to tell because, you know, the rise back's been so worth it. It was worth those years of pain because the person that comes out of the other end of it is, I think, a better person, a nicer person to be around, a nicer person to be in a band with, a nice person to be married with or be a father to. It's just in the making of me Those horrible, horrible years.

Interviewer 1 (30:27)

And for people who are still in the difficult place at the moment and are maybe struggling with their self worth and their own confidence, the one thing we haven't told, the one part of the story we haven't touched on is how you went from taking the mirrors down in your house because your self loathing was so great to being able to be back on stage with the band. Like for someone listening to this, what was your first step to recovery that could perhaps be theirs?

Gary Barlow (30:53)

A lot of these roads we're talking about were never sort of parallel. They seemed to happen at different times. It was almost like phases I was going through in those, those years where, where I wasn't on the screen and on a stage and the sort of, the, this, the non stop eating thing was towards the end of that and I, I really think the thing that led me out of that was coming back into our band again because all of a sudden I knew I couldn't be. I couldn't do this anymore because I had a purpose again. I, I had people to, I had to turn up for. And I also knew I'm not meant to be this guy. I'm not meant to be this, I'm better than this. I need to sort this out. I was a big smoker at the time as well. I was like really like a lot of. And I was. And almost that was one of the hardest things to get over the cigarettes was so tricky. But I knew I had people out to deliver for and I knew, I knew that I had to get out of bed and be. I couldn't carry on with this. And so that, that was a big part of me sort of, you know, really putting that to bed.

Interviewer 1 (32:05)

First thing that you did?

Gary Barlow (32:06)

Yeah, I went for a run. That's the first thing I did with.

Interviewer 1 (32:10)

All the weight and while smoking.

Gary Barlow (32:11)

Yeah, I was straight done exercise in such a long time. And I have to say exercise is so much a part of my everyday. I'm a different songwriter when I exercise. I'm. I'm just a different person. I think exercise, I cannot, I cannot advocate it enough of how much good you get from it. And it could be a walk, it just could be a stroll or, you know, it. It comes in many forms. Exercise does. But the first run I did, I was so out of shape. I was so hilariously big at the time that I shouldn't have been running to start with. But it felt brilliant to run. It felt brilliant to move, to feel air going across my face, for my knees to be lift it just felt so ridiculous. And funny is that I just remember giggling to myself, walking back, thinking, I've got a lot to do here. But you know what? It's all right because I'm on the. I'm on the road now, you know, I've put the shoes on for the first time, turned up. And I think that once I'd done that, I felt so good instantly. A minute later felt so good, I thought, well, I've got to do this again tomorrow. And I did. I run every day for the next two years. And slowly this guy disappeared in my trail in the dust. I was losing big parts of myself in. In this, in this, in this, you know, this.

Interviewer 1 (33:45)

Did you have therapy and stuff?

Gary Barlow (33:47)

I didn't, you know.

Interviewer 1 (33:48)

Really.

Gary Barlow (33:48)

No, I didn't, I didn't. Music was the place I was turning to. Music was helping me get it out.

Interviewer 1 (33:55)

When was the moment then, where the piano was no longer the enemy and you thought, oh, yeah, I can write music again. That must have been really special.

Gary Barlow (34:03)

It was so great. It was really great. There was a little period where so. So a piano, but even a pianist who's played for years and years, when you go back to it after not playing for so long, you're really bad at it, right? And so again, it was a little bit like putting the trainers on. The first time I lifted the lid up and started to play. I played some of the old songs and I was reminded of some of the, you know, the things I'd written over the years. And I got some music books out and played some sight reading, really enjoyed it. And suddenly my days of saying goodbye at 10 o' clock in the morning and going into the studio were meaningful now because I was going in, I was playing and my fingers were sore at the end and it just. It was like the sore feet running, it was worth it. It was just so rewarding to go in and play this beautiful instrument, you know, that. That had been a friend to me for so many years and, you know, helped me have this life, this. This one instrument that had made this whole universe for me. And it was back Friends Again. It was just so beautiful.

Interviewer 1 (35:12)

And what did you write about that period?

Gary Barlow (35:15)

So that was the Patience period. Patience came out very early on in that period. That was almost like a song that had been trapped for 10 years inside. That was. And that came out with like a just. It was just. It was like a. A cry of hallelujah, that song. When I first sang that chorus, it was just so uplifting. And like I said, it These things that when they come from a real place like this, people get it, people connect with it, they feel it, and that's what music's all about. So a lot of that first take, that album, they. They came from. Yeah, that period.

Interviewer 2 (35:56)

And what about your wife and children at this time, Gary, because you made the comment there about that, that you felt you had that sense of purpose again.

Interviewer 1 (36:05)

Yeah.

Interviewer 2 (36:05)

Getting back on stage, what difference did they see in you as a. As a partner and as a parent?

Gary Barlow (36:12)

Oh, my wife was so happy when she saw me back on stage again because she knows how happy I am to do that and be involved in music. And she has this. She has this habit. She does. So when she first came to watch a live show, she doesn't sit in the audience. She sits by the. The monitor man, the guy that does. So I have ear things in when I. They call in ear monitors and in those monitors, I get my own private mix. So I get the mix no one else hears, not the band or. I get my own mix where my voice is loud. I have the guitars panned one way, the drums in the middle, the keyboards over here. And she loves to sit listening to my mix, so she's the only one experiencing what I'm experiencing. And, yeah, she loved it. She's just so proud and. And, you know, still is. But. But at that period, she. She knew it's what I needed.

Interviewer 1 (37:12)

Do you mind me asking what. What she did for you in the dark days, for people who are listening to this and maybe they are a partner of someone who's struggling.

Gary Barlow (37:20)

What.

Interviewer 1 (37:20)

What was. The things she did that helped.

Gary Barlow (37:22)

Yeah, she was amazing, you know, because she didn't. She never grilled me. She never pressed me about anything. She never. She probably knew I was doing nothing in the studio all day, but she never, you know, she was never confrontational about judgment. Any of it? No, no, Nothing at all. Nothing at all. You never questioned, you know, what are you doing? Why aren't you doing? He's never any. Any of that at all. Even now, though, you know, the. The. This is the thing with music is that even when you're not doing it, it takes up your mind, you know, because you're thinking about not doing it. And is that I can be distant, you know, and that's the only point she'd ever go, hey, put that phone down now. Come on, get in here.

Interviewer 1 (38:04)

Why distant?

Gary Barlow (38:06)

Because music takes so much. It's not like coming home and putting a briefcase under the. The desk and not thinking about work till the next Day music follows you around, you know, so as I'm having dinner, I'm thinking, oh, that's the end of that line. It's just so. It's so annoying for everyone else, but it, you know, it doesn't. Creativity, it doesn't happen between 11 and 4 in the afternoon. It just happens when it wants to happen. So often for me, it can be in the middle of a holiday or, you know, and it can just happen at the worst times.

Interviewer 2 (38:39)

So what advice would you give to anybody that maybe have a partner or a friend that's struggling? Like, what really helped you to eventually come through it?

Gary Barlow (38:51)

A lot of people often ask me, like, what's. Because we've been married for a long time. We've been together for a long time, and we've had lots of ups and downs for our lives. And people often say, you know, what's the secret? And all the rest of it? And. And I don't. I've never. I don't think there is a one thing, but the only thing I would say is that. And it's very simple this. But it's just be nice to each other. Just try and be nice to each other, because if you really do that, things are great. You know, of course it's impossible to always have that. But, like, if you, if you go into the day saying something nice or. I just think it's a very simple thing. It's just like support who you're with. It's, you know, it's like the last couple of weeks we've been in the studio together and we've had different roles and if you sit there going, that was great, well done. Brilliant. More of that. It's just so helpful to hear that. It's. And it sounds, Sorry, it's very simple, but it's just something we've always tried to do is be, you know, be nice to one another.

Interviewer 1 (39:58)

It's great. And, you know, you needed her in those difficult times for you, and I know that she would have needed you after the very sad loss of your daughter. Poppy, do you mind talking about that? No, no, just for a moment, because it's the most moving moment of the, of the stage show that we came to watch. And, you know, you. You really are able to make the audience feel how you were feeling at that time.

Gary Barlow (40:22)

Yeah.

Interviewer 1 (40:23)

What was the process that you went through to be able to write that incredible song about her and about the whole period?

Gary Barlow (40:31)

Well, I'm always desperate to put things into music because like I said earlier, my therapy's Always music. And also, you know, for anyone who's been through what we went through. And by the way, over the years, I've realized it's so common. It really is. It's tragically more common than you think, is that you have so little. You have so little. You don't have any memories, you don't have any photograph. Very few photographs. You have so little. So you try and make as much out of what you've got as possible. And the music was such a big. Because I look back, actually, at that whole album, and that's her in there captured forever. And so for me, when I go out every night on a stage and say that again, it's an extension of. Of what she gave me in that brief time. That's what that period's been like for me. It's. It's about adding to things that were net we never got the chance to experience. And the more I can do that, the more I can either put it into music or talk about it or. It gives more light to. To her. Simple.

Interviewer 1 (41:42)

Yeah, that lyric, fly high and let me go. It is kind of. Oh, I mean, it's. It's moving, but it's painful at the same time, isn't it?

Interviewer 2 (41:49)

Yeah.

Interviewer 1 (41:50)

That message to her, and I didn't.

Gary Barlow (41:52)

Want it to be painful. I wanted it. I wanted it to feel. Because there's parts of it that isn't painful. There's parts of it that is. So, like I say, the good things that an experience like that leaves is. Is as good as the bad.

Interviewer 1 (42:06)

And what are they?

Gary Barlow (42:07)

Well, I think it's a. Definitely a togetherness, because one thing me and my wife were told when that happened, because we did. We did some grief therapy after that, is that some. Some crazy figure, like 97 of couples split up after that, which you can understand, but it hasn't been like that for us. It's actually brought us closer as a family. And so there's so many great things that have come from that. And. And, you know, it's amazing what it does to Europe as a person. You know, the adversity is. I just think it's a terrible thing to go through at the time, but you do find positives in it.

Interviewer 1 (42:50)

What an honor to be able to sing her. I know her song in front of those. I mean, that must be off for you. What a moment.

Gary Barlow (42:56)

And it's also a moment when I do just a music show and. And it's just a song in the set. People are jumping up and down to that song. It's a massive reaction. And you play it late in the evening, you know, and it's just a look out and go, there's the light right there. It's so beautiful. Really is.

Interviewer 1 (43:15)

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Interviewer 2 (46:31)

We had a guest on the podcast called Steph Reed who had gone through the process of. She was involved in an accident where she lost a leg. And she told us that when it happened that people that go through this trauma, there's a good chance their parents will split up.

Gary Barlow (46:45)

Right.

Interviewer 2 (46:46)

And she spoke about how that manifested itself in. In her life. And her parents did end up divorcing. So you've defied the odds again there. So what can you teach us about how do you be. How do you come out of it stronger in relationship terms because you've gone through it with the band in a less dramatic circumstances as well as. Personally, I think there's an awful lot that you can teach us on this.

Gary Barlow (47:14)

Yeah. Me teaching people's never a good thing. But, you know, I think. I think if I was to study it, which I try not to, I'd probably go back to my childhood. I lived in a very happy house. I don't ever remember my parents arguing. It was such a happy place. I mean, they were married for 43 years. Mum and dad. There was such a happy couple. And I think that when I got married, it was just like, there's. There is no second marriage. There's no this is it. And. And you, you know, you. We've always treated this thing as something that's just like, so important to us. You know, having a lifelong partner is something I want. You know, we're very, very happy couple and we'll get through anything. And. And we've got through a lot and. And we're still here, as happy as ever. And I just don't believe there'll be a day where something will beat us.

Interviewer 1 (48:12)

Brilliant. I've really enjoyed this conversation. I get a real sense of, like a freedom now because, you know, you've been through all these things, you've learned from all these things. It's almost like it does create that suit of armor that what can affect me because look at what's come my way. And yet here I am, still standing, still performing, still a dad, a husband. I suppose my question really, before we move on to the final quick fire questions, is, what's it all for now? Like, you've had a great career, you've made your money, you've had your children. Wonderful. There's so much always going on with you. I always see like seven or eight Gary Barlow projects happening. Why are you always so busy?

Gary Barlow (48:52)

I love it, though. I love it so much. I do. What's the not to love? Great.

Interviewer 1 (48:56)

Have you ever tried to take a. I remember I heard you once being interviewed. You said, I'm going to try and take a year out. Did that ever happen?

Gary Barlow (49:01)

I did, though. I did do a year out. Covid.

Interviewer 1 (49:06)

It was before COVID but even now.

Interviewer 2 (49:08)

You were doing those sessions, weren't you.

Gary Barlow (49:09)

Where I saw you doing so much.

Interviewer 2 (49:11)

The online stuff, other artists.

Gary Barlow (49:13)

Yeah, I love it so much. I love it so much. And music. So, you know, it's just like. There's just nothing bad about it. It's just such a. And also, you know, it's a time of life thing, I think, as well. Like you say, I don't have a list in a Filofax anymore. I've done most of the things I'd wanted to do. This is the. This is the good stuff now, you know, this is the stuff where you get to say no to things, where you decide what you want to do. It's brilliant. It's just great. And if there's a little bit more success to come, brilliant. If there's not, fair enough, you know, let someone else have a bit. You know, it's just. I. I love it. I love it. I mean, this is fun for me. You're talking about music's as good as making it. And. Yeah, just. I'm very, very happy in what I do. I've got a great job.

Interviewer 1 (50:02)

Do you leave room for the things that you really want to do? Because I don't want to sound morbid, but you never know what's around the corner.

Gary Barlow (50:07)

Yeah.

Interviewer 1 (50:07)

Do you make sure that you carve that out now?

Gary Barlow (50:09)

I think so, yeah. It's taken me a. It's funny when I meet other artists, whether, you know, you're on a concert or something, whenever you meet artists, the first thing everyone always says is, what about your balance between work and home? Is it good? It's always one of the first things that comes up. And I've definitely got it wrong over the years, but I feel like I'm getting it right at last. At this point, I'm definitely not as hard on myself as I used to be. I'm definitely not as serious as I used to be. Because that's. I think. I think you've got to have a humor with what you're doing. You've got to have a. If everything's just like, you know, oh, my God, we've gotta get. It's just. I've definitely taken the stress out of my world and it's just left all the enjoyment, which is lovely.

Interviewer 2 (50:56)

So how do you do it? I'm desperate to know that for myself, as a selfish point of view. So tell us, like, your criteria of how you make a decision to go. I'll do that, but I won't do that. What's.

Gary Barlow (51:08)

I look at something and think, that's a pain in the ass. That it's gonna need this. This, this. When you look at. You're like, we want you to make a musical. That's four years. It works. Oh, no, this. Oh, 45 minutes. Oh, yeah, I'll do that. It's like, it's. If the level of pain in the ass is here. Ah. Someone else can do that.

Interviewer 1 (51:32)

There you go. Why are we staying in the ass? Three things. Profit, passion, or purpose. I think if it fits into one of those three things, and you can consider it. But other than that.

Gary Barlow (51:42)

Yeah, yeah. The purpose thing is the bit. Definitely a big one for me.

Interviewer 1 (51:46)

What's yours?

Gary Barlow (51:47)

Well, I think I've tried to always never do anything that isn't related to music. So, for instance, like, I won't be on a quiz show. It's not related to music that is. So whenever I've done TV things or whatever, as long as it's rooted in music that I probably know what I'm talking about. Anything else, I probably don't. So don't. Don't include that. I'll give you a good example. This whole wine escapade's been hilarious for me because when we started talking about. I love wine, by the way. But when we started talking about making My own wine, it was just like, you know, 100 bottles. Couple of me mates have a case each and I have a bit for Christmas and it's just all a bit of a laugh. I think we're approaching 800, 000 bottles of wine we've sold now and it's just like this has got out of hand because it was never meant to be this. It's, it's funny but there's no seriousness of like we've got to make this quota, we've got to achieve this. It's not come from that, it's come from a passion of a hobby. You know, you can watch a concert and drink a nice glass of wine. Somewhere in there is a relationship to what I do and what, who I am and my hobbies.

Interviewer 1 (53:01)

So authenticity, authenticity needs to be at.

Gary Barlow (53:04)

The center of it.

Interviewer 1 (53:04)

Right, ready for some quick fire questions?

Gary Barlow (53:06)

Uh oh.

Interviewer 1 (53:10)

The three non negotiable behaviors that you and the people around you should be buying into.

Gary Barlow (53:17)

Buying into?

Interviewer 1 (53:17)

Yeah.

Gary Barlow (53:18)

Well, I think the, the, the thing I talked about earlier about being nice to one another is definitely a, a big thing and supportive as well.

Interviewer 1 (53:28)

And that's been a journey for you from the early days.

Gary Barlow (53:31)

Yeah. And also I have a team around me as well. So, you know, music team and you like being supportive and, and embracing. Here we go. Other people's ideas. Imagine that in the 90s. I'm big on that. I love people coming up with ideas and you know, getting them into seeing, seeing their work for them come to life is, is, is nearly as good as seeing my own ideas come to life. But yeah, working as a team. Big one.

Interviewer 2 (54:01)

Second.

Interviewer 1 (54:01)

One. We need three non negotiables working as a team.

Gary Barlow (54:04)

Did, did I do. So have I given you.

Interviewer 1 (54:07)

I think that was one.

Gary Barlow (54:08)

Was that one. Was it? Yeah. The team thing though, that's a big one.

Interviewer 2 (54:12)

Second.

Gary Barlow (54:12)

Yeah, that's a big one. Because the team has been massive for me in the last sort of 16 years. Let me do, let me do another one. Well, the fun, yeah, because the thing is with any of this is that I try and always remind everybody around me is that we're in the entertainment industry. It's gotta be fun. Right. If it's starting to feel like we're pulling teeth, we should probably start what we're doing, you know.

Interviewer 1 (54:38)

And you know what I love about those three? If we'd have gone to a 21 year old Gary Barlow and said three non negotiables of fun, teamwork and kindness.

Gary Barlow (54:46)

Probably wouldn't have existed.

Interviewer 1 (54:48)

Yeah, brilliant.

Interviewer 2 (54:49)

What's your biggest weakness and your greatest strength?

Gary Barlow (54:53)

I think my greatest strength is experienced. I think that I've definitely put my hours in over the years. And that's not being. I'm stating a fact here. I have. I've been on. Spent thousands of hours on stages, millions of hours in studios. You know, I've definitely put. I think experience is a real strength. I think if you're interested in something, do it, and then when you've done it, do it again and keep doing it, because at some point, then it's gonna just be like a muscle and work for you. Weakness. Let me have a think about this for a second. I must think very highly of myself because I can't think of a weakness at the moment. I am still. I do still take some things too seriously, and I have to remind myself of some of those things we just listed, but less so nowadays. That's probably the, you know, taking things too seriously is always there on my shoulder somewhere.

Interviewer 2 (56:00)

Where do you think that comes from?

Gary Barlow (56:03)

I think it comes from the perfectionism, which I've tried to lose over the years, because, of course, we all know nothing's perfect, but it's hard in music. I always look at Elton John as a perfectionist. He is someone who is completely obsessed by music. I mean, you know, he's on a whole other level to me. You know, all he wants to talk is music and football. But it's still, you know, at his age, where he should be, you know, just basically having a good time. He is still listening to as much music, you know, as I think I've got to the end of a good year and I've done 150 gigs a look and Elton's done 250. I mean, he just puts us all to shame.

Interviewer 1 (56:42)

Your biggest mistake and what you learn from it.

Gary Barlow (56:46)

Well, I think my biggest mistake comes from the Clive Davies series, not trusting my. My. The small man in a voice, because that's who I was then and I should have trusted all those years I'd done what I'd done because it led to such a catastrophic turn of events that it possibly could have been. It could have gone a different way that day. So I didn't listen to my gut instincts and I've never, ever not done that again.

Interviewer 1 (57:14)

And that period where you had the issue with your tax, that was from trusting other people. I just wonder whether that in that moment you thought, oh, no, I don't want to lose everything all over again. How big a moment that was for you?

Gary Barlow (57:28)

Well, that was, yeah, that's a. That was a different thing. I was more disappointed in myself that I hadn't asked more questions. And I never really ever like for the lead up, it's hard to explain this because when I'm always misquoted when I talk about this subject, but the lead up to that whole story and the thing going to court, I never lost any sleep over that. It was always laid out like an investment. That was just some of the. Lots of people did. So I never ever until it was viewed as it was, I never thought it ever could be. So it was more of a disappointment in the fact that I hadn't asked enough questions.

Interviewer 2 (58:08)

If you could go back to one moment of your life, what would it be and why?

Gary Barlow (58:14)

You know, I'd put myself somewhere in that period of the early noughties because I'd love my kids to be young again. We'd give anything for our kids to be little again. I felt like I could have got more out of those years than I did. I was. I was sidetracked with what was going on in my life. It's the only regret I have in all of that time was I could. I could have been around more as a dad than I was.

Interviewer 1 (58:47)

The final question, your last message, really, for people that have listened to this fascinating conversation, you're. I know you don't like giving advice or your own learnings. You're too modest for that. But this is your kind of what you'd love to leave ringing in people's ears. Your one golden rule for, For a high performance life.

Gary Barlow (59:04)

Well, I think. I think it's finding what really gets you excited. And for some people it's stamps or. But just find it and not be like, just embrace it. Don't care what anyone thinks about, you know, it's just like if it lights your day up, then just jump inside it and enjoy it. Because there's plenty of, you know, there's plenty of things that. I found this with music over the years. There's to. To do the bit I love. There's all this around it, which you've got to do as well. That's part and par. I've come to terms with that over the years. But there's so many things to take you away from music. Don't let it stay in there, enjoy it and get as much out of it as you can. Because I'm a better person at the end of the day when I've. When I've been in the middle of that bright light, I just. I just. It's such a love of my music. So whatever you love, get in there.

Interviewer 1 (60:05)

Love that. Gary, thank you so much. Bless you for that conversation. Like, I just think it's so easy when you're in the moment to think. I don't want all of this difficult stuff. I don't want the negativity. I don't want the challenge. But look what it's given you. Look at the freedom, the experience, the learning, the wisdom that you now carry to really enjoy every minute of every day. Like, many people never get to that point. So I'm so pleased for you.

Gary Barlow (60:27)

Thank you. Thank you. I think I'm there. Close, close.

Interviewer 1 (60:31)

We're all a work in progress.

Gary Barlow (60:33)

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But thank you. It was lovely to speak to you both.

Interviewer 1 (60:39)

Oh, what a cool conversation. Without doubt one of my favorites from one of my favorite people. I think what struck us most was that journey from like shame to freedom. You know, that seven or eight years where he couldn't touch the piano, he couldn't sit in a studio, he was pretending that he was working to his family. He was gaining weight and his weight was kind of his armor. So people didn't know who he was. And the only way out of that situation is really complicated. It was, you know, putting on those trainers, going for that first run, lifting that piano lid. He kind of couldn't ignore the things that were causing him so much pain. And I think in the end, the message from Gary is clear. Find what lights you up and jump inside it. Don't let all that bullshit that surround it keep you away. As always, thanks for listening. Please if you've taken something from this conversation, hit subscribe. And if you want to, please share with someone who needs to hear this conversation. I can't wait to see you next time on high Performance.

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