How the Smallest Team in F1 is competing with the Big Guys: Team Principle on Haas’ Comeback (E387)

Summary

The High Performance Podcast — E387

"How the Smallest Team in F1 is Competing with the Big Guys: Team Principal on Haas’ Comeback"

Date: January 19, 2026
Host: Jake Humphrey
Guest: Ayao Komatsu, Haas F1 Team Principal

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into how Haas F1, the smallest team on the Formula 1 grid, has transformed its performance, culture, and ambitions under the guidance of Team Principal Ayao Komatsu. The conversation charts Haas’ 2025 comeback after a catastrophic start to the season, explores the pivotal role of teamwork and transparency, and examines Ayao's personal leadership journey—drawing on formative experiences with talent, adversity, and near tragedy. The interview offers a masterclass in high-performance culture, resilience, and what it takes to fight against the odds in the world of elite motorsport.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. 2025: From Disaster to Best-Ever Results

• Haas began the 2025 season with a fundamentally flawed car, only to finish with its second-best points total ever and a joint-highest race result (P4 in Mexico).
• Initial Realisation of Trouble:
  • "Lap two of FP1." (Ayao, 01:28) – recognizing the car’s major performance issue almost immediately in Melbourne.
• Haas’ car was disastrously slow in high-speed corners, with drivers (rookie Ollie Bearman and newcomer Esteban Ocon) struggling just to keep it on track.
• Massive Setbacks:
  • Bearman crashed in two of three practice sessions, depriving the team of critical feedback.
• The team refocused, aligned on the problem, and engineered a solution in record time for the Suzuka GP—demonstrating unprecedented teamwork and unity.
• Ayao’s Reflection:
  • "The failure doesn’t define us. What defines us is how we get up from that as a team, together." (Ayao, 07:35)

2. Culture Transformation: From Dysfunction to Trust

• Prior to Ayao’s tenure as Team Principal, Haas was plagued by communication breakdowns, politics, and a lack of transparency.
• Old Haas Culture:
  • "People not talking to each other, no transparency, no alignment, no transparent discussion… we are not behaving as a team." (Ayao, 16:19)
• Ayao led a culture reset: direct communication, transparency, and accountability replaced finger-pointing and confusion.
• Building the Foundation:
  • "If that Melbourne issue in 25 happened six months earlier… we probably disintegrated… But we built this foundation of teamwork, trust, transparency, the right culture." (Ayao, 08:53)

3. Driver Management and Maturity

• Ayao explains his nuanced management of two very different drivers:

  • Ollie Bearman: Raw speed and immense potential, but needed help converting pace into consistent results and learning from mistakes.
    • "What I was most impressed was his maturity, understanding of the bigger picture… but at the beginning of the season… he just struggled to put a weekend together." (Ayao, 18:49)
  • Esteban Ocon: Experience, hunger, and relentless work ethic; a benchmark and mentor for Bearman.
    • "I didn't need a superstar driver... I really needed somebody who's really, really got a hard work ethic that can drive the team forward off the track as well as on the track." (Ayao, 24:26)

• Ayao emphasizes direct, honest dialogue with his drivers—never avoiding tough feedback.

  • "You got to speak to [the] person directly... in a very transparent manner, respectful manner." (Ayao, 23:55)

4. Handling Team Dynamics, Trust, and Conflict

• Application of transparency to reduce driver conflict (notably after a coming-together at Silverstone).
  • Encouraged Bearman and Ocon to resolve their issues themselves, only stepping in if necessary.
  • On Trust:
    • "If both drivers agree, that's fine... If it happened again, then I have to step in." (Ayao, 32:10)
• Examples of successful self-regulation and teamwork, e.g., Esteban offering to let Bearman through for the betterment of the team.
  • "Esteban came on the radio, said, ‘Oli is much faster in this condition. I let him through here, let him know.’ Did it by themselves." (Ayao, 34:35)

5. Talent, Pressure, and Human Side of Performance

• Reflections on working with past talents like Fernando Alonso and Romain Grosjean, and how experience has changed his leadership:

  • Fernando’s Natural Ability:
    • "He knows how he drives in [the] first 5 laps, he knows exactly what that tire is going to do in 20 laps time. That’s the talent. It’s incredible." (Ayao, 37:39)
  • Learning to Handle Emotional Drivers:
    • "So many people thought he [Romain] was arrogant, but he's not... he was so, in a way, insecure, lacking confidence." (Ayao, 52:14)
    • Expresses regret for not being able to better support Grosjean during tough times because of his own lack of experience: "I let you down by not being able to help you in that instance." (Ayao, 46:36)

• Insight into the psychological toll of Formula 1, its loneliness, and the crucial need for support structures.

6. The Bahrain Fireball – A Human Test of Limits

• Ayao recounts in vivid detail the horror and relief of Romain Grosjean’s fiery crash in Bahrain, and what it revealed about human resilience:
  • "When I realized it was Roman, obviously, I'm thinking, he cannot be alive. He's my friend." (Ayao, 61:40)
  • "You can tell... Romain never gave up surviving, not just for himself, but for his wife, for his kids. He never gave up. Incredible." (Ayao, 64:14)
  • Unforgettable imagery—Grosjean’s boot left stuck behind the pedal, the smell of fire, survivor’s instincts pushing through fear.
  • "He insisted on walking [out], you know, with aid, so that he can show to his wife and kids that dad's okay. Amazing." (Ayao, 69:27)

7. Personal Lessons & Journey

• Ayao draws on the influence of his parents, overcoming being written off by teachers, and lessons from the loss of his father.
• On the importance of embracing challenge and living for the moment: "You really have to be grateful for the moment you’ve got. If there was something you want to do, you better do it now." (Ayao, 71:20)
• Never leave anything on the table; hard work outweighs talent.
  • "If somebody can do this program in five minutes, it takes me two hours. So what are you going to do about it?" (Ayao, 79:08)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The failure doesn’t define us. What defines us is how we get up from that as a team, together.”
  — Ayao Komatsu (07:35)

• On Haas’ reputation for poor in-season development:
  “People said Haas may start the season well, but cannot develop the car. Update is waste of time, waste of money. No, I always believed that’s not right… we did it.”
  — Ayao Komatsu (09:02)

• On transforming team culture:
  “If this would have happened like two, three years ago, we’d have been just arguing forever about what the real issue is and why.”
  — Ayao Komatsu (13:19)

• On direct driver management:
  "You got to speak to [the] person directly... in a very transparent manner, respectful manner... We only trying to understand how we can improve you, and you got to be sincere about it."
  — Ayao Komatsu (23:55)

• On Romain Grosjean’s Bahrain crash:
  “He never gave up surviving—not just for himself, but for his wife, for his kids… Every single decision he made was correct in the cockpit to get him out of the car.”
  — Ayao Komatsu (64:14)

• On life lessons:
  “If you are comfortable, you haven’t tried hard enough. I think every day you got to think about, okay, have you put yourself out of your comfort zone once today? If you haven’t, you haven’t tried hard enough.”
  — Ayao Komatsu (80:40)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening Reflection on Failure & Teamwork — 00:01–01:05
• Melbourne 2025 Disaster Realization — 01:04–04:40
• Driver Crashes & Lack of Feedback — 04:40–06:59
• Suzuka Upgrade and Turnaround — 07:27–10:39
• Team Culture Before and After Ayao — 12:51–15:38
• Considering Quitting in Baku 2023 — 16:09–17:26
• Approach to Drivers: Bearman & Ocon — 18:39–25:50
• Driver Conflict Management (Silverstone, Spa) — 32:06–35:18
• Role of Human Factor in Performance — 35:45–36:29
• Perspective on Past Drivers (Alonso, Grosjean, Bearman) — 36:29–54:34
• Bahrain Accident — Leadership & Emotion — 61:24–69:47
• Living for the Moment, No Regrets — 71:20–74:42
• Aspirations for 2026 and Haas’ Future — 75:11–77:15
• Quickfire: Non-Negotiable Behaviors & Life Lessons — 77:15–80:40

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Conclusion

This conversation demonstrates that high performance in F1 extends far beyond engineering brilliance; it rests on a culture of trust, honesty, and tough love. Ayao Komatsu’s leadership provides a blueprint for turning adversity into unity and individual talent into collective results. Haas’ story stands as a reminder that underdogs can punch above their weight with the right vision, values, and unbreakable teamwork.

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Final Words:

“For me, the result is result… But what you can control is your process… We’re going to build a race winning team in the distant future with that core value, not diverting from that. And I believe we can do it.” — Ayao Komatsu (81:34–81:56)

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For more inspiring F1 conversations, scroll through The High Performance Podcast archives.

Transcript

[A]

I always say to people, the failure doesn't define us. What defines us is how we get up from that as a team together. If I'm totally honest, I was ready to quit in Baku 23. I was very close to just walk. Very first instance, I didn't know it was Roman. And then the minute I realized it was Roman, obviously I'm thinking, he cannot be alive. He's my friend.

[B]

You're listening to High Performance. Thanks to everyone who's already subscribed. If you've not, right now is the time. Because you'll get new episodes the moment they drop. And your support helps us bring more world class guests onto the show. Tap subscribe right now and keep growing with High Performance. Ayo, welcome to the show.

[A]

Thank you for having me.

[B]

So last season you got your second best ever points finish with the Haas Formula one team. Rewind to the very first race of the season and I bet you would never have imagined that you would finish so strongly.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. That first race in Melbourne, as soon as the car started running EFP1, then as soon as I realized how big the issue was, that was really sickening. You know, at that point we are facing the season of potentially scoring zero point. You know, because we are not just slowest, we are the slowest by like 6/10. We had a huge problem.

[B]

So when did you first realize that the car wasn't what you thought?

[A]

Lap two of FP1.

[B]

Oh, what are you thinking at that point?

[A]

Yeah, again. So FP1 you start running very fast lap. Okay. I looked at those high speed corners. Okay, we are very slow, but it's a lap one. It's okay. Maybe your driver's just doing a sighting lap. Then you cool down the tires and then you go again. Second lap. It should be not your quickest lap obviously, but should be not a huge amount of miles and miles off. It's like you are going through wet patch. Right? Then I realized, okay, we got some serious problem. Then by the end of FP1 it was totally clear we got some serious issue. Then the focus is okay between FP and FP2. What can we do to mitigate this issue to see if that's something we can sort of. With the reasonably big change on the car setup. Then by the end of FP2, I had to know that's something we can deal with the setup or not. Then by the end of FP2. So by the end of Friday it was totally clear that is a serious fundamental.

[B]

So you tried everything on the Friday and Nothing would make the car quicker.

[A]

Really. Yeah. I didn't say everything because you only got like an hour to do it or two hours to do it if you include FP1. But we made a big change on the car so that we look at those two extremes. If doesn't make enough difference, there is nothing we can do unless we change the car fundamentally.

[B]

Wow. So how do you get to the first race of the season with a car that is way slower than you think?

[A]

Ah. Because again the psychic characteristics we've been testing in Bahrain, right. Been focusing on the race distance. We did some qualifying simulation. But Bahrain is a circuit where really doesn't have a challenging high speed corners and doesn't have that dips or bumps, right. So it didn't have that dynamics that excites that weakness in the car. So it's total surprise to us when we turned up in Melbourne. Honestly, we left Bahrain thinking, okay, we got decent race car, we should be okay Then going to Melbourne. That high speed chain, oh my God, what a disaster that was. I've honestly that was shock, huge shock.

[B]

So what was the problem?

[A]

Problem is basically the car completely gives up at that dynamics high speed change of direction. That driver have no, essentially no downforce, no grip. That's why you had to go so much. I can't remember the speed delta anymore because it's such a long time ago. It feels like years ago. But race won this season and literally it's like you are on a completely different surface. Like a wet surface. It was that much difference. Of course we are in Marybourne, right. But first race, our technical director was there, our performance director was there, of course I was there. And then we in the Marybourne time. But it kind of worked in the way that then with the time differences we didn't sleep much, you know, really. We've been talking with Europe when we should be sleeping in Australia, but you can't sleep anywhere when you got such a huge issue. It was literally sickening. But then honestly what I was happy with the alignment we had. And then people just working together really. There's no politics, no finger pointing saying who decided this or nothing like this, right. We got this issue. This is the direction, this is what we need to do, right? How are we going to do it? Get on with it. So we didn't waste any time.

[B]

And what about your drivers? Because you have two new drivers at this point and Ollie Bearman has never driven a Haas before. Esteban Ocon has never driven a Haas before in a race weekend. And suddenly I'm sure they're looking at you going, what have you given me? I can't ra. I can't race this car.

[A]

100%. 100%.

[B]

And yes, were they angry or were they worried?

[A]

Of course we are all worried. Because again say same as me, I never faced anything like this before that the problem was big. You know, you are 6, 10 thrower than next throwest car and an F1.

[B]

That is, that's a lifetime.

[A]

It's a lifetime. Lifetime. Yeah, yeah. But then again, like Esteban just said, you cannot drive this car through this corner. You can see other corners. He can drive the no problem. These types of corner, it's not even close. You literally cannot drive. And then to make the matter worse then FP1 Oli BMW crashed on the corner straight away. Right. So he did minimum running on Friday. And then I said to Oli on Friday night, look, I need you tomorrow. You know, you really need to do laps tomorrow because so far we only got Esteban's feedback. Based on Esteban's feedback, this is undriveable. I can see that on the data, but I really need your feedback. And then what happened in FP3? He crashed again. So, so, so.

[B]

And was he crashing because of the car?

[A]

No, no, no, no, no. Right. No, no. So, so that Friday might have been because it's the same corner and then you know, we couldn't pinpoint exactly, but definitely there was clearly there's underlining issue there. Maybe Oli was able to deal with it better than. But I don't know. But anyway, bottom line, he crashed heavy on Friday, didn't zero laps. Right. The FP3, the way he crashed had nothing to do with the issue of the car. I can't even remember. I think it's the first push up going into the one of the last corner after the high speed skein. So yeah, worst nightmare. Absolutely worst nightmare. So now I had zero feedback from Oli. Then of course Hyundai was wet. But we just got to take Esteban's feedback on what happened on Esteban's car. But at least the data showed that we clearly got an issue. So we are tackling it. But what we didn't know was if Oli was driving, would he have had the same level of issue or would he be able to drive a bit better. But regardless, that was a huge issue, so we didn't have to argue about it.

[B]

So you go to Australia at the start of the 2025 season with the slowest car by a long way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

One driver who's crashed in two of the three practice sessions.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A car that, you know, can't be changed in time for China.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A factory working overtime to get a new car ready.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For the Japanese Grand Prix. But you're not able to do the usual wind tunnel and CFD work to get that new car read. Yeah. Yet we now sit here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You've had your second best season ever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You've got your joint best ever finish. Fourth.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In the Mexico Grand Prix.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So how do you now reflect on what you did as a team in 2025?

[A]

What makes me really proud of our team is how we reacted from that situation. I always say to people, the failure doesn't define us. You know that. You know, we had a big mistake in the Qatar pit stop as well. That kind of disaster doesn't define us. What defines us is how we get up from that as a team, together. And I'm so proud that from that Marybourne disaster, honestly, you couldn't have had worse. Race one, it is huge issue. Nobody knows how to solve it at that moment. Nobody panics. Everybody worked together, helped each other, got on with it and all the production guy, program management guy, the same thing one day. Engineering technical director, performance director, yellow guys decide, this is how we're going to make modification. Got on with it, made a modification, made a one part available straight away for Friday, running FP1 running in Suzuka. So then once we done it in Suzuka, back to back across the cars, it was clear it's definitely the right direction. It made a positive difference. So again, like, we proved it as a team, if we stick together, help each other, encouraging each other, no politics, no finger pointing, we can solve anything. Right. And then come through that from that point, because we had to solve that specific issue. That means like on the upgrade, we couldn't focus on the outright performance. We had to solve that bad characteristics of the car first. We had to deal with that in Suzuka, we had to deal with that in Imura. So the first time you can put, let's say your more traditional upgrade to the car. But Silverstone, but then Silverstone, bang on Friday. You can see straight away, car is a lot faster. Then we did it again in Ghosting. So that proved two years in a row for the team. Lots of people said Haas may start the season well, but cannot develop the car. Update is waste of time, waste of money. No, I always believed that's not right. You know, that's an excuse. You know, we should be able to do it we did it in 24. We did it last year in 25. So that gives people lots of confidence. So, yeah, it's just a teamwork, you know, but I'd say if that Melbourne issue in 25 happened six months earlier, so let's say mid 24, we probably disintegrated, you know, because throughout 24, I believe we built this foundation of teamwork, trust, transparency, the right culture. We started building up this culture of a proper race team. So by the time that disaster struck in Melbourne, at least we had that 12 months to build that foundation. People trust each other. We know that we, we're not having any brain culture, finger pointing. We just got to work together. Only thing important is find a solution. And how you support each other when the time is tough is so important. Right? You know, it's very easy to deal with everything when things are going so seemingly, but test of character happens when things are not going very well. And I'm really, really proud to say that everyone there really showed their character in such a positive way and then got out of the mess.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Yeah, would have been certain people not to start off, I don't think we'd have had alignment on accepting what the fundamental issues are. Because communication was disaster, right? And also the transparency in terms of politics, et cetera, communication. Such a key, by the way, just to put everybody on the same page and also create a safe space that, look, nobody's worried about, nobody's blaming each other or. Only thing important now is to find a solution, right. Professionally, that wasn't happening before. So before, if this would have happened like two, three years ago, we'd have been just arguing forever about what the real issue is and why.

[B]

Had Haas got to this point where you weren't communicating very well with your operations in different countries, There was a lot of politics, there was a lot of finger pointing. Why had that been allowed to become what your team was?

[A]

There's, I think, many dimensions, but if I just talk about what I've done since I became team principal in January, honest, first thing, I spent one week, sit down with as many people as possible in Banbury, uk, because that's where I'm based. One to one, group sessions, bigger sessions, small sessions, just try to tell them my philosophy, but also listen to them, how they see as a problem, why we couldn't understand the issue of 23, why it's interesting. So UK side, I knew better, but Italy side was more interesting because I'm not based in Italy, right? And then previously I've had, because I was on the truck side, I've heard quite a lot about, oh, I was complaining about this, but it's not true and all sorts of things. But it's interesting. As soon as I've done exactly the same thing in Italy for one week, sit down one to one, lots of people said to Me, we weren't clear what the problem of 23 car was. I was like, you joking because, you know, we are doing this debrief. We've been telling, you know, exactly what the truck side feedback was and then what the driver say. But then, yeah, yeah, you say that in your debrief. But then afterwards, certain people say, no, that's not really the issue. So go some go and do something else. But you know, I think for me it's absolutely normal and okay to have disagreement. Right. But at some point, somebody needs to take a decision which direction to go. Either it's a team principal or technical director or head of Aero, doesn't matter. Right. But whenever somebody takes that decision, I think that decision needs to be made transparently. Right. If there's a 10, let's say senior engineer in the room, not everybody is going to agree what the biggest issues are. But if direction was made, okay, we're going to go into this direction, at least. Everybody needs to understand why we are going to that direction, even if you don't agree. But that kind of alignment, transparency wasn't there. So there are so many people didn't know why we are developing the car in this direction.

[B]

And were you not able to do anything about it before you were the team principal when Gunther was in charge, could you not go to him and say, gunther, the communication's not working here. Let's sort this out.

[A]

I think we should talk about 24 Homebus. Probably. I tried my best, but you couldn't make a difference. Yes. No. I mean, yes.

[B]

Is that. Does that. Does that make you feel a bit helpless though?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, if I'm totally honest, I was ready to quit in Baku23.

[B]

Why?

[A]

Because I just couldn't see how we can move forward like this. People not talking to each other, no transparency, no alignment, no transparent discussion. And it's just people not going in the same direction, unified direction. We are not behaving as a team. And I felt like I put everything on the table. But in my humble view, it wasn't happening. So I don't like to waste my time. I'm not interested in just turning up at the racetrack just to make up numbers if we are not moving forward. But I was very gross to just walk. But what stopped me walking is like, I felt a big responsibility. You know, there's people who rely on me and people who are depending on me to make a difference. So I thought, okay, I'm not going to walk until I've done everything or it's not my choice, if you like. So I wasn't going to just dip and deep. The people I care just behind. That's the only reason I didn't leave in 23.

[B]

Yeah, man, that's hard for you because you're someone that loves the sport so much and you've seen good practices, you've worked in teams where communications are excellent, haven't you?

[A]

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Like Enstone, when I was working Enstone, so I joined Enston in 2006 again. So I came from the team called Ber Honda, which was a much bigger team than Enstone, but Enstone was winning championships. They won the championship in 2005 with Fernando. I joined in 2005, 2006 as a tire engineer and then the group I was in, so Vehicle performance group at BR Honda, it was like 20 people, 25 people. Enstone, when I joined, I think it was around eight people, but it was amazing. The difference was that those eight people, all of them contributed directly to performance. So that's the difference. And then back then at Enstone, we had a really clear backbone with the team. We had, obviously Pat Simmons, Jamie Sarason, Dean Otoso, head Dovero, Bob Bell, all those guys are the core senior member of the team. And then it was pure race team. So anything needed to be done going to those five or six key people, and if one of them or they agree, okay, this is what we're doing, we just go. So it was very efficient and then career leadership. So that was the difference. So I've seen it.

[B]

Like you say, let's talk then about your two drivers that drove for you last season, Ollie Berman and Esteban Ocon. How do they differ?

[A]

They're very, very different. Oli, he's such an exciting young kid. You know, we've been working with him since he was 18. I just couldn't believe it, you know, first time I worked with him in Mexico, FP1, you know, the maturity he had, understanding what the team need from him, what the program is all about, what role he needed to play. Not just, okay, I want to prove to everyone in the world how quick I am, right? Speed was clear from day one, but what I was most impressed was his maturity, understanding of the bigger picture so much and how quickly he runs, right? So to me, it was clear that he was a future talent. And then in 23, no, sorry, 24, we worked with him through a 6 FP once again. Every single time he proved like, okay, this kid is a BR deal. And then, of course, he did amazing thing with Ferrari in Saudi Arabia. P7 when he jumped for us in Baku and then Inter Lagos, he did absolutely amazing job. So it was no brainer that we wanted to sign him for race drive last year for 25. And then again, the biggest challenge for us was to build up the consistency. You know, speed again is no doubt. He's incredibly quick. Amazing talent. Such a, such a positive kid as well. But again, like at the beginning of the season, even though he showed the flashes of talent, he just struggled to put a weekend together. You know, some serious mistakes like Monaco overtaking under red flag or Silver Storm. KA was so quick, right? So quick. And then at the end of the session when there's red flag, he decided to attack the entry in having a crush. And of course under red flag to have a crush is a huge, huge. No, no, Right, So gets temporary script penalty. Right? So. So things like that really was a tough lesson. But then again, you know, we all together, you know, work together, and then worked with everybody around Dori, all his engineers, Oli himself, of course, and then we just came away and finally in Singapore, he was able to put the weekend together. And Singapore is a tough track and he never raced there before. And the Esteban was very, very quick from the beginning, but that was the weekend where. Okay, right, good. Now we finally done it. This is the baseline. And then if you look at the older races after that, you know, he's been very, very consistent putting weekend together. And then that Mexico P4. What can I say? He was incredible. You know, he had a Max behind him first stint and he had Jorge and Antoneri behind second stint, sad stint. Giorgi and Piastri. Right. All top teams, top drivers. Then from outside, looks like. Does he feel pressure? Of course he's feeling the pressure. He didn't put a foot long. Amazing the amount of improvements he made. Maturity as a human being. Amazing guy.

[B]

You know, those moments of inconsistency, like I would look at it and go, well, he knows to lift off under a red flag, right? He knows not to overtake someone when there's a red flag at Monaco or what happened at Silverstone. So what happens to a young driver in those moments, do you think?

[A]

I think he judged, obviously. Like, I think that was signed in Monaco. You know, he was coming through certain high speed, high speed. Skein. Not the high speed, one of the chains, I think. And then he just approached a bit too quickly. Right. But then he could have. Then, you know, maybe he didn't have to completely stamp on the brakes, not to overtake, but if he had overtaken, he could have done this completely slow down and let him pass again, at least to show that, look, I'm trying to slow down, I slow down. But he just. Once he's ahead, he just kept being ahead and went into the pit lane. So it's just a small, small, let's say judgment, like, you know, attacking pit Le Hendri in Silverstorm. Of course he wanted to try attacking pit Lengrie for practice, but, you know, come on, it's red flag. Just bring it. Bring her home. But just that tiny bit of split seconds, decision making.

[B]

And how would you manage him? Where you need to explain to him that was not acceptable in Silverstone, but at the same time, you need to take into account that he's in his rookie season.

[A]

Absolutely, yeah. No, just you need to be able to have a tough conversation. But I think to be able to have a tough conversation, you have to build a relationship, relationship of trust, relationship of respect, and then that's foundation to anything. It's like, I remember 2024 with Nico Huckenberg. I was very, very happy, the relationship we built together. And I believe Nico was performing at his best throughout the season, and we really enjoyed it. That was a new, let's say, benchmark. So when I signed the new drivers, Odi and Esteban for 25, I just said to myself, look, I got to build up the same level of relationship that I achieved with Nico Huckenberg with Odi and Esteban. No doubt, just being who you are, but being transparent, and then nothing is a personal attack, but you got able to have those tough conversations, and then Oli is very, very open in that respect. So, you know, if you can have those tough conversations, you cannot improve.

[B]

So when Oli got it wrong in Silverstone or Monaco, did you go and speak to him directly, or do you speak to his people and explain to him?

[A]

No, you got to speak to person directly. You know, if I've got issue with you, what's the best way to tackle it? You got to be sincere and then talk to you directly, but in a very, let's say, transparent manner, respectful manner, you know, so that if you go in there, you would understand that this is nothing, me personally against you. We only trying to understand how we can improve you, and you got to be sincere about it. It's no point talking with somebody else. It's just a filter.

[B]

And what made you want to sign Esteban Ocon Esteban.

[A]

So we knew that obviously we were signing Odi right? So then I needed. I can have two rookies. I need to have somebody who has got experience, who can provide a benchmark. But then also I wanted somebody who's got really good work ethic because we are still the smallest team, we are still the very young team. So we really need a driver at the center pushing for development in the right direction. I didn't need a driver, some superstar driver who turns up for the race weekend, drive the car and go home. I really needed somebody who's really, really got a hard work ethic that can drive the team forward off the track as well as on the track. And then Esteban is that, you know, Esteban, I think his father or his family put a lot on the table to continue Esteban to drive. You know, I think they even sold a home. I think they were living in some sort of like a caravan house or motorhome or something for some time to fund Esteban's cutting. So Esteban never forgets that. So until he achieved ultimate, which is world championship, he would never lift. You know, he. He would go to any strength to find the performance from himself, from the team, from the car. That's the kind of person I needed for the team. So that's why we signed Esteban. And you know, he's been racing F1 for by then nine years and he, he's a race winner, podium finisher, he's scored so many points, he's got proven track record, but he's still so hungry that that's exactly the person we needed.

[B]

And I'm interested in how you find out how hungry someone is or how you. You work out whether they are a team player or whether they just say the right things that they want you to hear. So would you take us into the process of how you hire a Formula one driver? Because I think no one knows how this happens. They just see a. A social media post one day say Esteban Ocon is joining Haas. Yeah, but no one knows how long you've been talking, where you've spoken, what really happens.

[A]

Yeah, with Esteban, I think first time I spoke to him in person was after Miami. Of course. I knew Esteban since a long time ago. I knew Esteban when he was 13 because I was at Enstorm. He was one of the gravity driver and he was still a kid. Yeah, obviously Satin and then didn't speak much English. Actually. I think he was still racing in go kart or maybe just finished racing in gokart and we actually did some 12 hours race together. I think just for Fun. But so I knew him since then and I actually ran his car. The very fast test he did in Valencia, in Lianca.

[B]

You ran his car?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Oh, wow. So that's history.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So I knew him, but then since I left Renault, since he actually left at Gravity, he went to become a Mercedes driver, of course I kept saying hello to him when I see him on a truck, but it's not like we kept in a close touch. But then when I spoke to him, sat down with him after Miami in 24, it's like we never left again, you know. So I wasn't doing the sales pitch either. I was Mary at that point. It was just a conversation. It's not like I really want to sign this guy.

[B]

And what were you saying to him?

[A]

I was just saying to him, like, look, where we are, who we are as a team, what our vision is, what we're trying to do in the future. I just said that and then Esteban really bought into the idea. He really wanted to be part of it. So yeah, that was amazing.

[B]

And what was he buying into? Because like every F1 driver, if you say, what's your dream? He will say, be the world champion. Of course, it's a hard case to explain to driver. You can be the world champion with Haas. Right?

[A]

So of course I didn't say that at all, you know.

[B]

So how do you convince him to join your team?

[A]

I actually didn't, you know, I didn't like, like I said, I didn't do a sales job. I just essentially told him, you know, who we are, where we are now, what's the current status? What's the vision about building the team forward? Of course, I didn't say, oh, 10 years time we're going to be world champion or you're going to have podium in five years time if you come with us. None of that. I simply told him where we are. Now.

[B]

What did you say though, about where you are and where you're going? That made him excited.

[A]

I think the fact that, I think he felt that we are just focused on being more competitive. You know, we are race team, we are not corporate. You know, our single ultimate objective is a sporting result. At some point, of course we're going to challenge for world championship, but we are miles away from that. So at the moment I can say that in a three to five years time, I'd like to think we can be fighting towards the top of the midfield consistently, but I didn't even say that, I just said because that was a middle of 24, obviously, I was six months into the job. I was still trying to make our technical department to work, you know, but then I can see it started working. But there are still lots to do, right? So I was saying, like, okay, how I see the problem of the current team, how I'm addressing it, how we are going forward with it together, and what's the vision for next year? That's about that. Really? Really? No, let's say fancy story. But I think he understood that we are serious. We are really focused on making the team more competitive with career vision, career alignment, career strategy. I think that's what he got excited.

[B]

About, and I think he gets. Or certainly before this season, we just had in 2025, I felt he got unnecessary critic, actually, and I was never really sure why. You've now seen him close up as a Formula one driver, how good is Esteban?

[A]

When you say, like, unnecessary criticism, what aspect you're talking about, like crashing into teammate, for example.

[B]

That's exactly what I was thinking.

[A]

It's funny because, like, when I announced signing Esteban Ocon, so many journalists said that to me. But then I said, look, I'm not worried whatsoever. Why? Because to me, that's about management, about transparency, about respect. You know, teams and drivers, they need to have a clear rule of engagement. If the driver trusts the team's message clearly, and the teams trust the driver, problem will not happen.

[B]

That's interesting. So when you see an issue in a team, you don't look at the driver and think the driver's the problem. You look at the communication, the way. The way they're being managed, the processes.

[A]

Of course, at other teams, I don't know the full story, right. So I'm not judging the situation at all. But what I believe is if we take Esteban in our environment, it's our responsibility to create that transparent environment where drivers, not just Esteban, both Oli and Esteban, trust the team completely. Even if we have to, let's say, swap the drivers around, they need to know why we are doing it after. They may not know at that point because they don't have the full picture, but they got to be able to trust us and saying, okay, team is making this decision not because they want to favor one driver or another, because this is the best for the team. And as long as we've got that open communication policy, whatever the situation, we can solve it. And then probably in terms of that teammate dynamics, the best thing happened is Silver Storm in the race. We are not very competitive. Our Car was competitive, but we completely messed up the race strategy because our mindset was wrong. Anyway, that's another story. But our drivers essentially crushed each other. Not a heavy crash, but completely unnecessarily. And then three of us sat down straight away after the race. I said what I had to say and asked Oli and Esteban their opinion views on what happened. Of course, their views were very different. Right. But that's fine because it's straight after the race, still emotions high. Right. Then all I said was, okay, you know, we basically got to sort this out before next race. And then you got, let's say one week to sort this out. And I'm sure you guys can come to agreement. So next time we're meeting. I can't remember what race was after Silverstone. I can't remember, let's say if it was, I don't know, Budapest by this time we turned up in Budapest. Let's have a chat. If we haven't come to agreement, I'll make the rule. Right. But it's better if you come to agreement because I'm not the one driving the car. Right. So then of course they spoke and then they come to agreement. Since then, there's been zero issue.

[B]

What was the agreement that they came to when they spoke?

[A]

I didn't even ask.

[B]

Did you not?

[A]

I don't need to know because I'm not. I'm not driving a car. If both drivers agree, that's fine.

[B]

So you're also showing great trust in them at that point.

[A]

Absolutely. You got to.

[B]

So when you met up at the race after the British Grand Prix and you said to them, have you spoken?

[A]

What?

[B]

What did they say?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, they came to agreement. Yeah.

[B]

And you then said, okay, that's fine.

[A]

That's all I need to know. Then I'm pretty sure problem is going to happen. If it happened again, then I have to step in. But I was pretty confident he wouldn't. Again, great example. Spa. So spa. Franco Sham. In sprint qualifying, we qualified P5, P7 and they had a chat before sprint because P5, P7, great place, we got to really convert. But Spa fast trap, you know, after Orus down that camel straight, going to that chain, right? Anything can happen, right. If we are fighting between P5 and P7 and make a mess, somebody from just behind us, P8, P9 guys can overtake us. That we cannot let that happen. So how are we going to do about it? And then again, initially they said, okay, during the race, we're going to do this fine. Apart from that, okay, what are you going to do in that one? Then that was important. And then again, if they don't come up with a solution, I had to make a rule. But then that's never going to be great because I'm a driver, right? Yeah. So they know the best how they can manage. Then they made certain agreement, okay, in this scenario, I have to do this, otherwise I'm going to get overtaken. But we're not going to do this. I'm going to put my car here so you can do this. So they had a clear alignment even on lap one. Right. Okay. In that particular scenario, didn't happen, but we are ready if that was going to happen. We had a clear, clear rule of engagement and understanding. And then we converted that the V5 P7. And for the main days as well, because of the weather, we put one count high downforce, one count low downforce. So depending on the weather condition, one car is going to be much faster than the other. We can hold each other up. Right. Again, you know, we spoke before the race and then we agreed, okay, in this condition, we're going to let this guy through straight away before Dutch King or whenever we can. Sometimes we cannot even wait until next straight. We just do it straight away. But when I tell you, you have to do it straight away. Right. Then they both agreed. But in the race, I didn't even have to say because about when the lap, I was about thinking, okay, half a lap rate, I'm going to have to instruct a swap. And Esteban came on the radio, said, odd is much faster in this condition. I let him through here, let him know, did it by themselves.

[B]

So who said that? Esteban.

[A]

Esteban.

[B]

So Esteban himself volunteered the fact that O could come through?

[A]

Yeah, at that point, yeah. So again, that's the teamwork. And then Odi knows that in the opposite situation that Odi would do the same, Esteban the same. So it's great. You know, honestly, it's about building up that transparency and trust. If drivers cannot trust the team, then issue will happen. You know, if the rule of engagement wasn't clear, imagine that lap one inspired situation. If it wasn't clear. Either hold the position or you're free to race. But free to race. But, you know, what's the limit as a teammate, you know, that had to be clear. You know, if there's no clarity, things can happen, then things can break. You know, people can start blaming each other, but just to be upfront about it and having that clarity, that's important.

[B]

And do you think actually in hindsight, the coming together in Silverstone was a good thing?

[A]

Yeah, that's why I said, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. At the time, it was painful. It's like, oh, my God, I cannot believe after seven races or whatever, we've done that. But luckily we've done that at the, let's say, when the stakes are low. Only because we made a mess of a strategy.

[B]

I think. I think one of the really impressive things about you is you're an engineer, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But you have this ability to understand human beings and particularly human beings who sit behind the wheel of a race car.

[A]

Yeah, but human beings are the most interesting thing.

[B]

More interesting than the numbers and the. The data?

[A]

Yeah. At the end of the day, human beings create those numbers, right? Yeah. And the human beings are the ones interpreting those numbers, and the human beings are the ones making decisions. If you don't understand human being, like drivers, they're not robot. Right. They got emotions, they got good days and bad days. So you got to understand how to get performance out of them, performance out of team, performance out of engineers. So my job is to get performance out of team, individuals, groups. So, yeah, I'm naturally interested in human being anyway. So, yeah.

[B]

So if we rewind the clock to the days when you were working with Fernando Alonso, for example, in the same team as him, what did you learn from. From Fernando as one of the greats?

[A]

So I was tire engineer. Right. This is 20 years ago. So again, you know, when I say about, you know, interested in human beings, of course, life experience counts a lot. You know, I'm, you know, now 20 years older than I was, so my life experience is totally different. But when I was a young tire engineer, young working with Fernando on the tire testing on the Michelin tire, it was amazing that his capability. If you say to Fernando, okay, we're gonna have to do 15 laps or 20 laps, race simulation or race stint simulation. I want to use up tyres in this way. Last four, five laps, you got improved lap time this much. And then by the end up of sector two, I want this tyre to be completely finished. He's incredible. He knows how he drives in fast. 5 laps, he knows exactly what that tire is going to do in 20 laps time. That's the talent, right? It's incredible. It's incredible. He basically, when you instruct him like this, he basically goes, watch. And he just goes and does it. Incredible.

[B]

Because I, you know, when he was at Ferrari, he drove me around the track at Marinello, really? And I was gripping on the side of the seat, because he was going fast.

[A]

Sure, sure.

[B]

And he looked at me and laughed, of course. And he said, don't worry, I know the track quite well. And he closed his eyes and for like three corners, drove around like. And I was like, okay, this is a guy on another level, to most.

[A]

People, no, he's crazy. I mean, for him driving, I wouldn't say automatic, but almost like automatic. Just something just happens. He can drive car at such a high level without using, let's say, 10% of his mental capacity. But that's the difference, though, between good drivers and top drivers. Top drivers, they have so much spare capacity to optimize every single side. Remember one race Fernando was doing, I can't remember which year, but he was leading, and then he got bored. Obviously his lap time has been great, right? So nothing to suggest he's bored, but of course he was bored because it's so easy for him. Then I remember, I think he radioed back to the team, said there's going to be safety car. Right. Then we had no idea. Then after the race, he told him, because he was bored, he was watching the big TV screen. He saw somebody crashing somewhere or something. So he noticed this. So he told us. And also I remember, I think, was it Budapest one year, I think French TV wanted the interview with Fernando. Basically he wanted. The TV company wanted Fernando to talk through a lap. So he was doing that, you know, radio, talking on the radio, going through Budapest Hungar Rink. And I can't remember the lap time he was doing, but I thought he was going to drive, like, I don't know, 10 seconds off the pace, but he was doing pretty decent lap time. But if you listen to his radio, it's so calm, as if he's sitting on the sofa at home, yet he's driving the car not too far from the limit. He's incredible.

[B]

And he had a. I'm still maybe less sober. Certainly had a reputation as being quite a fiery character back in those days. Did you ever see that or not?

[A]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember, I think, when we had a one two finish in Malaysia, because I think Fizzy One and the Fernand second. I don't think he was happy.

[B]

Why not?

[A]

Because he didn't bring his teammate.

[B]

Because his teammate won.

[A]

Yeah, but back then, Enstone was all about Fernando, you know.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, of course, he was the main driver, he. And rightly so. But just losing, you know, finishing second behind his teammate, he wasn't happy. And I remember, and also, like later on Much later on, not the same year, I can't remember the year, but I was on. And Nelson Piquet junior's car, I think we got poured him in Hockenheim in a certain specific scenario because I think to do with safety cards or etc, I can't remember the details. Anyway, so Nelson finished ahead of Fernando. Fernando wasn't happy.

[B]

Again, this is the interesting thing. You know now, now that you're not a tire engineer, that you're the team principal, you kind of like, you want your drivers to be team players, you want your drivers to please the sponsors, you want your drivers to see the bigger picture. You want your drivers to work well together. Yeah. But you also want a driver that has that thing that Edon Senna has, that Lewis Hamilton has, that Max Verstappen has, that Fernando Alonso has.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Michael Schumacher had that edge.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Where they also just want to destroy their teammate. Right?

[A]

Of course, everybody does.

[B]

How do you get that balance then?

[A]

Yeah, because like you got to look at the moment that that matters and moment they got to work for the team. It's so different, you know, if you ask me the question about, let's say McLaren, good example, Norris and Piastri, it's a totally, totally different situation to manage. Both of them are going for driver championship. Our guys, you know, Oli and Esteban, they're not going for driver championship. So in a way it's much easier for me to manage that. Imagine if we have this situation where let's say Esteban Olli is going for both got chance to win the driver championship, then to having this load of engagement, working for the team in this clear manner will be another step more difficult. But there is a time you have to let them completely race. Most of the times we let them race completely, you know, fair and square. As long as you don't touch, it's fine. Free to race. We say that every time. But definitely when you get to the situation where you're like a McLaren last year, Norris and Piastri is going for championship. It's a much more difficult environment.

[B]

And all of the fans have their opinion about Zak Brown's decision to let the driver's race and Andre Estella's decision to let them race. What do the other team principals think of this idea where McLaren say they're free to race? If it cost us the world title, then it does, but they are free to race.

[A]

Ah, huge respect, you know, whether I can take the same decision, I'd like to think I can say the same thing. But until I'm put in that situation. I don't know. Right. So I have a huge respect in mcrarim who let Norison Piastri race because that's what fans want to see. Right. So it's brilliant.

[B]

So interesting, isn't it? Because I think if they said from the middle of the season, let's say if they said from, I don't know, Zandvoort onwards, Oscar is now our favorite Lando, you're going to support him. There'd be loads of criticism. Yeah. They then allow them to race to the point where, like, I was. I couldn't believe when Oscar over to at Lando in that first corner of the last race. Could you? I was like, wow, they are. They are genuinely allowing them to fully race to the last race of the season.

[A]

No, it's a free credit to them. You know, I think that that's what fans wants to see.

[B]

But the fans would criticize if they just prioritize one driver, but they also criticize for letting them race. It almost feels to me like the one thing you could never do in Formula one is please everybody.

[A]

No, no, but so you got to have your belief and value conviction. Right. You got to execute what you believe is right, let's say in sync to your core value. So, you know, full respect to them. For them letting them race each other like that, it's brilliant.

[B]

Would you say Fernando is the most naturally talented driver you've ever worked with?

[A]

Yeah, for out of the drivers I worked with, yes. I'm naturally talented. It's very difficult to say because Roman Grosjan was very, very naturally talented on his day. He was so quick. So quick. Oli Bierman is incredibly quick. So it's a bit difficult to say, hands down, he was most naturally gifted. But I'd say, you know, people like Olivierman, Roman Grojam naturally very, very fast.

[B]

I've got a quote actually from. You said this about Roman many years ago and I'm sure you remember it. You said everybody recognizes his natural speed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Everybody recognizes his lack of consistency.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the lack of progress that he's able to make because of sometimes the emotional side of things.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Can you take us back to that period in Roman's career? And I'm really interested to talk to you about this because I think you and him had a really special relationship and you've, you know, you went to Haas with him and you were with him in some really great times, but some difficult times.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That period where, like, Mark Webber was calling him a first Lap nutcase. And he had that huge moment in Spa and there's a few things going on. Like what was happening at that point.

[A]

With Roman, that was very, very difficult. And then I was very young as well as a race engineer, and I don't think if I had a five year small life experience, I feel that I could have helped Roma in a different way. But as a race engineer or as a human being, I didn't have that life experience to help him more. So I felt really bad about it afterwards, to be honest. Yeah, yeah. Because it was very difficult and it's got. In a way, it's almost nothing to do with racing. It's just about one human being, you know, in terms of mindset, emotional status, etc. But then, you know, great person Roman is. I remember catching up with Roman a few years ago in Brazil, just having a dinner together. And Roman, you know, you know, to this day I feel really bad. I couldn't have done more.

[B]

If we could go back to 2012 and, you know, what, you know, now, as an experienced team principal, what would you have said to him at least?

[A]

I think, I don't know what exactly what I would have said to him, but at least I would have faced it more front on, not in terms of aggressiveness or anything. I wouldn't have shied away from certain aspects of his character.

[B]

And did you do that you shied away from talking about.

[A]

I think so, because I didn't know what to do about it. I didn't know how I could help in what area it's about, for instance, that famous incident in Suzuka where he drove into Mark Webber, then Mark Weber came after the race and then, you know, came to Roman's room and, you know, punching and kicking every single panel you can think of. And then stormed off. And then Roman crying on the floor, you know, then like.

[B]

Crying?

[A]

Yeah, like, yeah, then, then for, for me, like, if I was Roman, even if I was at fault, if somebody came kicking down all my panelists, I, I would kick this guy out. Right. But he couldn't do that, you know, so. But then in that emotional state, as I, I didn't know what's the best way for me to help him. If you like. I didn't tackle it head on.

[B]

What did you say to him at that point?

[A]

That's the issue. I didn't, I couldn't offer anything, let's say, meaningful. Right. But I think if I had more life experience, I could have treated in a different way. I could have went through that, whatever the problem he had together, bit more than that. Could have made a big difference now. I know. But I just couldn't do it back then. But then when I met with Roman a few years ago in Tiragosa, I said that, you know, I really feel, you know, I let you down by not being able to help you in that instance because I didn't have the life experience, you know, I wish I had five more. Five years more life experience. I would have done it different. I would have, you know, gone through the journey together with you to get. Get you out of the hole, if you like the lock bottom. He was saying, not just in Sizaka, many other incidents. Right. But Loma was. Loman said to me, ayo, we grew up together. I don't want Ayao with five more life experience. Back then. I wouldn't change anything, you know, it's a great guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's why you're a great friend to say. Yeah, I know. For him to say that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Was. Yeah, it was amazing. But I still feel I wish I could have done more.

[B]

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[A]

Absolutely, absolutely. I remember after that Suzuka incident, I knew I going to Tokyo or he was going to Tokyo, I was in Tokyo as well, but I didn't have a capacity to reach out to him. Come on, let's just have a go. Yeah, Go and spend some time together. Let's just talk it through or whatever, just to offer the emotional support. I didn't know what to do and I was at my limit as well. So. Yeah, so, yeah, if seriously, like, if I was. Had five years more experience, I would have done it differently. I'm sure that would have made a difference. But for Roman to say that three years ago, when I said that to him, that just shows that what a great guy he is. And then we are very good friends.

[B]

You'd obviously carried that, I think, hadn't you?

[A]

Of course, of course. It's a responsibility.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and then you, you want to do best possible. Right. And then back then, of course I, I knew I should be doing it better, but I just didn't know how.

[B]

You know, we had A great conversation on this show with Alex Albon.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Who spoke about his time at Red Bull.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And as the pressure increased, the desire to do well increased.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So he drove the car harder, which then meant he made more mistakes. So the pressure increased. So the desire to do well, increase it. Do you feel that was maybe what was going on with Roman at that time? He was so desperate to not make another mistake that he did.

[A]

But yeah, one of the things with Roman that happened in India as well, he's very, very talented. Right. But so many people thought he was arrogant, but he's not arrogant. You know, he was so, in a way, insecure, lacking confidence. So I feel like every single time he went out on the track, even FP1, lap one, he needed to put everything out there to prove to the world that he's the quickest guy out there. But of course, FP1, Lapam, you know, nobody cares. Yes. That's not true. But you don't need to show every time you go out there, you are try to show that you are the quickest guy. That's not that. That's not how you should be approaching the weekend or FP1. But Loma was a bit like that. So I remember one one year in India. India, the sake, the grip level is so low. Like Taman, he just kept locking up, kept locking up. He couldn't even make a corner. He couldn't even do a one lap without locking up really badly. Right. And he's saying like, no, no, this car is. No, that was racing. As I looked at data against Kimmy, Kimi was Kimmy Raikon and was his teammate. He's already braking a lot later than Kimmy. And you can see on Kimmy's data that he's on the verge of blocking frontal, rear. Right. Kim is already here, but Roman trying to drive it there, but grip is not there. Right. But even when I showed him that and told him that he couldn't bring it back, and he kept saying, no, no, I should be able to break there. I should be able to break. No, you cannot. You know, Kim is a very good driver. If he's on the limit here, that's the limit. Bring it back. But he cannot do that. And of course, after that one, he, after the session, he was able to adjust it. And then I can't remember if that was the same year, but he finished second on the podium. So it's just such a fine balance. But you know, what creates a disaster like that is also what makes him go unbelievably. Quick as well. Like we are talking about Olivierman earlier, you know, he crashed in Melbourne. Like I was talking to him after Melbourne going to Shanghai. I said to Shanghai, I said. Sorry, I said to Ollie in Shanghai. Your single objective this weekend is to do that every single lap that is on the run program. Don't miss a single lap. You just got to do that. I don't care about lap time because you are quick. I do not care about lap time. Even if you ended this weekend half a second of Esteban Okom. I don't care. I know your ability, but you got to do the laps.

[B]

That's so interesting because in that case you're giving Oli the freedom not to be fast. Yeah. Like you're not. I'm not going to judge you for not being quick enough, but I will judge you if you can't get a full clean session.

[A]

Yeah. Because he's quite, you know, capable of doing that. But it's interesting what Oli said to me about. Yeah, you know, so again the year before. So I got Audi last minute race in Brazil. So. Because Kevin wasn't very well. Kevin Magnussen wasn't very well. So I remember calling him six in the morning. Odi, are you up? I just woke up. By the way, can you drive in FP1 five hours later? Because Kevin's not very well. So then he locked up without any preparation. Right. Because he wasn't expecting to drive then. I still remember FP1 lap. One the lap he did. I just couldn't believe what I was saying. Incredible. No preparation, jump in the car with five hours notice. I just couldn't believe he can do that. So that very thing he said to me, the same thing as makes me crush in Melbourne. Which is true, because he's able to put the car on the limit straight away like that. But you just got to judge. It's just such a fine line going a tiny bit over crushing heavily like Melbourne or being a hero in Interragos again. You know when he raced for Ferrari in Saudi because of Sainz health issue. Right. You know, he finished the race in P7, but that qualifying I think he touched the wall a few times. You know, he had a great weekend. Suddenly jumping in a car from FP3 Homewards to produce that for Ferrari. But that was also millimeters away from a crashing in qualifying. A disaster. Right. So, so like, like you said, it's a knife edge. But just trying to judge that all the way through the weekend. Of course, if this is the peak on this is a knife edge. You're going to be on the right side of it until the very last moment. If you. Somebody crashed in Q3, if Ollie crashed in Q3, run two, I don't blame him. You put everything on the line and then just a tiny bit over crushed. But like Baku Q2, round one, where there's no need to take that risk and he was too much close to the edge and bit of a gust of tailwind. He crashed or touched the wall and broke suspension. So it's such a fine nine.

[B]

Do you think Ollie Bearman has the skills that it takes to be a world champion one day?

[A]

I think so. I don't see the limitation in him. He's brilliant. You know, the thing is, you got up the speed to start office. Roman had it or he certainly has it. And then the way he's learning so quickly is impressive, you know, and then he's very, very open to, let's say, constructive criticism. Whenever I have a tough conversation, he knows that I'm not personally attacking him. Right. So even if he disagrees, he at least listens and he takes it in, digest it, then action. And if you look at the consistency he achieved in the last half of the season from Singapore, almost impressive.

[B]

Yeah. So amazing going back to Roman.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In that time where he was struggling.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I know that he went and saw a sports psychologist.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Did you notice the difference in his performances after that?

[A]

No.

[B]

No. Interesting, isn't it, how we, we assume, oh, if you go and see a sports psychologist, all your problems are solved.

[A]

No way. It's not like that. No. I think it's just one human being to one human being. You got, it's not about sports psychology or, you know, you got to have really like open hearted conversation and you got to find that person who's completely resonates and talk to you. So, yeah, it's not like there's an easy solution. Okay. You got mental problem, you can understand how to prepare your weekend. I'll go and see the sports psychologist. Know that you, it may work if you find the absolutely the right person. You happen to find the right person, it may work. But I don't think it made much difference in that instance.

[B]

It's hard though, isn't it? Because I think we would both probably agree that Roman Grosjean had the raw material to be a Formula one world champion.

[A]

Yeah, I agree.

[B]

You know, and he will know that.

[A]

Yeah. On his day he was so quick. I remember going to Monaco. I think this is even like first year partnership With Kimmy, you know, Kimmy was still very, very fast that year going to Monaco. Roman put seven tenths on Kimmy. I think it was incredible. I knew Roman was quick in Monaco, but wow, that Town 3 casino on its own. The amount of time he took off Kimi, the amount of minimum speed he was carrying was like, wow. Then one year he was incredibly quick. Every single session he was in top three and then fpc. So that's the year he could have won Monaco for. For sure, right? At least podium. And then what happens? FP3. So he's already done palpable sectors and then he was like top three on the timesheet again. And then we were going to come in, right? The attack has already finished, so we are going to come in. Then Roman Badem at the back of the circuit, just like 30 seconds away from a pit entry. Roman said, can I do one more lap Again, that's my lack of experience. I should have said, no, just come in. Dia tyre has already finished. I said, yes, right, what happens next lap? He goes into town. One heavy crash, he's already said, tire's finished, right? And then he goes into turn one. Crashed. And he said like, ah, something's broken. Brake didn't work. I looked at it. He braked so much later into turn one, rear tire's already finished. You can see visually the tires grained. So Ria's not there anymore. He braked later than when he was on the brand new tyre. So no wonder he crashed, right?

[B]

And that's his whole weekend gone completely.

[A]

Because then we are rebuilding the car, right? But again, if I had bit more experience, maturity, I would have been strong enough to say, no, Roman Theater is finished. You've done Europe coming. There's no point, then that wouldn't have happened. So that's my regret, for instance, right? But then, yeah, so that was a heavy crash, broke lots of things and then. But then the teamwork after that. Going into Cuban was amazing though. So we are rebuilding the car. Of course, Q1's already started. As soon as Kimi's car went out of our garage, all the mechanics from Kimi's side of the garage, bang, came onto our car. Romance car.

[B]

I love those things.

[A]

Yeah, I love it.

[B]

It gives you goosebumps.

[A]

Oh, completely the. I was race engineer, you know, Harry, press release, standing, waiting for these guys to finish their work, shouting, get the car down on the ground. We need to go under my number mechanic shouting like, we haven't even bred the brakes. We cannot send the car pump the brake there a couple of times. It'll be okay. Just send. It was amazing. Huge team. I can't remember how many people are working on that car. And the Lowman already sitting in a car on the high stand. And we send it out. And when we send it out, obviously he did power prosectors and he went through Q1 no problem. That was amazing moment. Right? And bang. Q2, we hit the traffic, and we are out. And again, it was huge disappointment. So it's just an emotional roller coaster, but, yeah, I still remember those moments. That's Formula one, good and bad.

[B]

Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess the. The greatest emotional rollercoaster of your life in Formula one would have been the incident in Bahrain when Roman crashed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like the rest of the world, you were watching with and feeling totally powerless, I guess.

[A]

Oh, totally. Honestly, to start off is I very first instance, I didn't know it was Roman. Right. And then the minute I realized it was Roman, obviously, I'm thinking, he cannot be alive. Yeah, he's my friend, you know, he's my racing driver, but he's my friend. Yeah, yeah, that's fair. Track eternity. And I actually didn't see him get out of the car and walking. And then one of the race engineers said on intercom, no, no, man's out. Romans.

[B]

Are you trying to talk to him before then?

[A]

No, no, no, no, no.

[B]

So there's no. No attempt at communicating with him after the crash?

[A]

No, I wasn't race engineer, so. But all I remember now is just big ball of fire, obviously.

[B]

And where were you at that time?

[A]

Pit wall.

[B]

You were on the pit wall?

[A]

Yeah. And then somebody told me that Lohman's out of the car. But I didn't see it. But I just. I said, are you sure he's out? Because I just couldn't believe he's out. And then when I saw him on the TV screen, okay, wow, he's out. Then I went to see him before he got airlifted to the hospital. I managed to catch glimpse of him, and he gave me thumbs up. He was in the medical center. I was just outside, and then the guy at a medical center just let me into the southern point. And then he saw me and he gave me something. Okay, he's arrived, Right. And then we've done the race. And then Kevin, you know, Kevin, of course, hasn't physically seen him. So, you know, it sounds stupid, but we are both the same. You know, Kevin said to me, like, he still cannot believe romance arrived. So he said that we need to go to hospital to see him. I was the same. The reason I went to see him before he got airlifted to the hospital was even though I saw it on tv, I just still can't comprehend that he's alive. I just wanted to. I needed to see him in my own eyes, that he's arrived and then let you know his wife knows that, look, I've seen him. He's arrived. He's. Yeah.

[B]

And did you go to the hospital?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. After the race, me and Kevin went into. Went to see a Roma in hospital and he was already smiling then.

[B]

What did you say to him?

[A]

I can't remember what I said to him. We just saw. I think we just said to him, I can't believe you're alive. You know, you are alive. You're still here. It's incredible. Yeah.

[B]

The people who saw the chassis afterwards, what they talk about is the smell rather than what they saw.

[A]

Completely the smell. Horrible. Absolutely horrible. That Vitam rubber burning smell is just horrible. And then looking at that chassis tab, you cannot imagine somebody can come out of this alive. It's horrible. And then when the chassis came back, there's still Roman's racing shoes stuck behind the pedal.

[B]

No.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because he. He so his left foot. Because when he was in the car, he tried to pull himself out, he got the. Sat on stage and he realized his left foot is stuck in a. Stuck behind the pedal. So he had to then bring himself back down so that he can grip something, hold of something and gain power to pull his leg out. So when he did that, of course his. His foot come off the racing shoes. So racing shoes is still stuck in the cockpit behind the pedal. And then he put his left hand in a flame of fire in the halo and then pushed himself and came out. But what was really moving was. So they let me watch the onboard footage. Of course, onboard footage to the public cuts out right the minute you have the. That kind of serious accident. But since Roman made it arrive and then they let me watch it so that I can understand, you know, is there any safety feature improvement you can make, etc. But when I was watching that footage, what was so moving was, you can tell by Roman, Roman Grojan never gave up surviving, not just for himself, but for his wife, for his kids. You can see he never gave up. Incredible. And then every single decision he made was correct in the cockpit to get him out of the car. If he made one wrong decision and if he spent another five, ten seconds in that, in that point, he could have been dead. You know, his norm, X, et cetera. In terms of timing, I can't remember timing if it was certified to, let's say. Honestly, I can't remember the time. Certain minutes to be a fireproof, that was right on the limit. So only bad bound he had was his hand, because he had to put his hand in the frame of fire to push himself up, you know. But again, the moment he realized his foot was stuck. Yeah. If he spent bit longer in that position trying to put his leg out, he probably failed to do that. Then he might have been dead. But he made a decision to go back in when he's surrounded by fire. Right. So that he can gain strength in terms of body position, put his leg out. So everything was correct. But it's funny, when I was talking with Roma afterwards, after having seen the footage and then sahim like, you are so brave going back down to then pull your leg out because you are surrounded by fire at that stage, an interesting thing. Roman said. Yeah, but at that point, I wasn't surrounded by fire. No, no, Roman, you are, you know, fire everywhere. But interesting. As a human survivor instinct, I think that completely blocks out all the fire surrounding.

[B]

So he didn't. He didn't. In his head, he wasn't in a.

[A]

Fireball at that point. He saw that came later, after. Yeah. So. So then. I don't know, maybe it's the subconscious, a human survival mechanism that allows you to go. To have a courage to go back in, to then pull your leg out. Then he realized he was. But I saw the footage go. Clearly he was completely surrounded by fire.

[B]

I mean, it's. It's an incredible thing to talk about because your entire job, Right. Is to try and get a group of people and the two drivers to find their human limits.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And to push the limit of a car to the very edge.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think it's only in a moment when you would have watched the onboard footage that, you know, we haven't seen. Is that actually it gives you an insight into what a human being can do when they really need to fight.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

You were seeing a man fighting for his life.

[A]

And.

[B]

And I think about that shoe because it's important to let people know if they don't, that formula drivers don't wear shoes, they wear boots. Right.

[A]

Yes, yes, yes.

[B]

So he's wearing a race boot. That would have been. And also those race boots are tight.

[A]

Tight. Yes.

[B]

Because you need to have a great connection with the pedal. So we are talking about finding the fight to pull a Tightly laced boot off your leg in that moment. I mean, that is.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Essentially force enough to dislocate your ankle or something, easily pull yourself out. Yeah, but he had to do that. And he did it. He just. But every single movement he did, he.

[B]

Made was correct, that he was facing this way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the way to live is to go that way.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's what gets me. Once he's out the car, surrounded by fire, to know that the barrier is there and that's where the medic sides. I mean, if people, you know, don't believe in something else, something higher, you have to watch that and think that maybe something else was going on.

[A]

Yeah. But. Yes, but seriously, just the fact that he never gave up, that was so inspirational. And I told this to Marion. Marion as in Roman's wife. And then Marion said, I want to see. I said, no, no, no, you shouldn't see it. But then Marian said, no, no, I want to see. I said, are you sure? Then she watched it and she said it really helped her tremendously. And I get it totally. Because imagine seeing your husband never, ever gave up, tried everything until the very, very last moment, moment just to get out of that for you and your kids. How powerful is that? Honestly, that was one of, or if not the most moving thing I've ever seen.

[B]

And you're a dad.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

So you can relate to the emotion.

[A]

100. And then the fact that he walked across the track was because he wanted to show to his family back at home on TV that dad is okay. He's walking because they offered to take him on the stretcher to the car. He insisted on walking, you know, with aid, so that he can show to his wife and kids that dad's okay. Amazing.

[B]

Yeah, amazing. And how did it change your mindset or how does it work for you now that your job is still to build a car for a driver to climb in and drive at over 200 km an hour? Did it change the way that you thought about life or motor racing or not?

[A]

I don't think it did. But really, because you know that you're always next to danger, of course, that that's in your face, you know that you nearly lost a friend, you know, dear friend, like a Loman. And then my kids are similar age, therefore his first two kids are exactly the same age as my. My first two kids. So we are like family friends. Right. To lose almost coming to losing family friends like that was scary to say the least. But in that way, it didn't change but of course, like I always living, believing in, living for the moment, you know, because you got to appreciate the moment you got. And if there was something you want to do, you better do it now rather than saying, let's do it tomorrow, let's come back next year. No, no, no, you got to do it now. You know, for instance, when I was younger, let's say when I was winning championship at the Renault in 2006, I thought, okay, we can win championship again in 2008, nine, whatever. But no, you, that, that is a precious moment, you never, you may never win it again. So you got to make most of it. Yeah, you know those things gradually, you know, you really begin to realize. But so it's not just one thing, but again that the affirm to let say my belief that you really have to be great for the moment. You've got like right now, you got to make most of it.

[B]

I think so. And also learning to, learning to live without regrets. I guess I know this. You lost your dad when you were relatively young, only 19 years of age, and your dad had this incredible story of a political prisoner. I know that you, in my research for this, I know that you and your mum took a trip to Germany.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

After he passed away and you had an emotional moment in a museum where you found a book that he'd been involved in. And I just wonder whether, and I've heard you talk about the fact that you didn't feel you were fully present or weren't respectful enough of who your dad was maybe when he was alive. And whether you think about that, when you think about having no regrets.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. Like I wasn't a great kid. I was very rebellious. I was angry at lots of things, authority, adults, school, teachers. Yeah, I was very, very angry kid. So, yeah, I don't think I was behaving in a very good manner. And then the fact that he passed away before I could show him that. Yeah, I could, I could, let's say, leap if you like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, he must have been so worried when I said I'm going to UK because I want to do Formula one in the future. He must have thought, oh my God, you know, irresponsible, rebellious.

[B]

What about brave and courageous and full of self belief? He might have thought all those things as well.

[A]

That would have been nice if he thought that. But just I don't think that my behavior when I was like 14 to 18, I don't think it wasn't correct. And then I, I don't know now Now I'm a father. But you know, from his side, he must have been so worried, you know, I don't know what gave him belief that I could do it responsibly. Maybe he thought, you know, but. But honestly he said both my mom and dad said, okay, if that's what you want to do, go for it, chase it, you know. So I'm really, really grateful about that. I remember I was 14 when I thought, like, I want to do this, the Formula one. Everybody said, don't be so stupid, you'll never make it. Just go to university in Japan, get a job, you know. But then only my parents, my mom and dad said, if that's what you really want to do, just figure out how to do it, just go for it, you know. So I'm really grateful about that. I still remember having, you know, you have this parents evening, right? So at the high school. So how old was I coming to 18, the final year of high school, this parents meeting with my mom and my teacher. And he said to me, you should just try to go to university in Japan because somebody like you, if you go to uk, you're gonna get addicted to drugs and you're gonna be a failure. Yeah, yeah. That's what literally what he said. You're gonna be a drug addict and then you will achieve nothing, come back to Japan. Then he said to me, like when you are, when you're homeless and then living in a cardboard box house in outside of Shinjuku station, then when you shout at me saying, oh, Mr. Amana, I gonna ignore you. So literally teacher said that in front of my mom. I was that bad. So I just said to him, don't worry, I'm not going to fail. But even if I fail, I will never ever ask for your help or don't worry about it. So I said, mom, come on, let's go.

[B]

You need to track that teacher down, if he's still alive and give him a VIP pass to come and meet the team principal of the Haas Formula one team at a race.

[A]

This is Baba. I wasn't very good kid. So to be fair to him, I understand why he said it. His delivery wasn't correct, but I get why he said it. Because I wasn't a very good kid.

[B]

Well, look, those moments are all part of our story, right? You being written off by that teacher, struggling with your own emotions, the life that you've lived in Formula one, the highs, the lows, the challenges, all the things we've spoken about are actually all necessary for you to have made it to this point and be the team principal that you are. And for the Haas F1 fans that are watching this conversation just to finish off with, as we look ahead to 2026, what would you like them to understand about your ambitions for the team this coming season, upcoming season?

[A]

No doubt it's going to be a tough season. You know, we are still the smallest team. We're making lots of improvement I think in terms of the way we support each other, you know, help each other moving with the common goal. It's, it's really good. We are becoming a good team but still we are the smallest team. So the huge regulation change, we are up against it. But what I believe in is whatever is thrown at us in January, February, March when we run the car in the very early part of the season. The belief that two years in a row we are able to develop the head out of the car and Finish the season 5th fastest car give us a lot of confidence.

[B]

Rex, you might have found a golden bullet. You might, you might go out at that very first test in just a few days time.

[A]

I think fastest. I don't like to keep hoping because if you just keep hoping you don't achieve anything. Yeah, you know, you got to be able to do something substantial. You know, you cannot just say oh this year was really bad, forget about it, next year will be good. What have you done to make okay.

[B]

What about evidence then? Williams went from 17 points to 137 points ninth on the grid to fifth on the grid.

[A]

It can be done, it can be done. But Williams and that's a totally different team. So Williams is actually very big team. They got like thousand people and then they've got most of the things that's available to them. But you know the guys done amazing job. You know they are struggling at the bottom of the field for a few years but they had that enough belief in themselves to build it up, build it up, not get lost in a short term objective and then this is the result, you know, hats off to them. But we don't have the same let's say resource as Williams. So we got to gradually, gradually build up that kind of resource as well. So it's a totally different environment but you know each 10 teams from next year it's 11 teams. Everybody's got different environment. Right. So the way to success for each team is different. So but then the good thing about our team is got good people, great people, really great synergy and then we are pure race team, you know, so love it. And then we focused on what we need to achieve and then just really trying to be inclusive, support each other. So yeah, good, looking forward to it.

[B]

Well, I'm excited already. I've got a few quick fire questions to finish with. What are the three non negotiable behaviors that you think are most important in life?

[A]

For me, respect, humility. I don't know, humberness comes very close to humility. And then yeah, those are non negotiable.

[B]

Very good. What's the best advice you've ever been.

[A]

Given from my parents? Like, okay, if that's what you want to do, you can do anything, just go for it. So for me, lots of people ask me like, oh, you made it to formula one, you know, since you are a kid, you wanted to do formula, you made it. Do you think I can do? I say of course you can. You know, don't think about, you know, if you think about your objective is there. If you trying to imagine every single steps you have to take, it's too daunting, right. I always say just don't think about that, don't think about the consequence. Just to take the first step. Once you take the first step, that will show you, you will see what the step number two, three, four looks like. Don't worry about step, step 100 when you haven't made a step. So for most of the things in life, I believe if you try, you can do it. So just take that first step.

[B]

I love that. What's your biggest strength?

[A]

Strength? I guess it's a determination of the ability to take. I don't think anything is impossible. Most of the things, like I said, if you put your mind to it, you can do it. So I don't take no for no.

[B]

What's your greatest weakness?

[A]

Controlling my emotion. I guess especially it's important as a leader. You know, I get very impatient or frustrated about let's say certain issues we face. But you know, I need to be more patient. And then yeah, I think that's probably the weakness. Yeah.

[B]

What would you say to a young IO just starting out in life?

[A]

Ah, listen to your. That bit more. Because my dad always said to me, you know, the, the hard work, the work ethic is more important than the talent. But for me, my dad was very, very talented guy. So I thought that is a lie, you know, because you saying that because you're so talented. But then, so I thought unless you have a talent, it's no point trying. It's so wrong. So that, that was me when I was like 12, 13, 14. But then once I decided I want to do Formula one, the fact that I wasn't talented in math and physics didn't matter because I want to do formula one. To do formula one, I need to study math and physics. Doesn't matter if I'm not talented. Right. If somebody can do this program in five minutes, it takes me two hours. So be, what are you going to do about it? Right? So for me, the ability to put yourself, you know, immerse yourself, and then to be never giving, never leaving anything on the table, that ability is so important. I want to tell my 12 years old, when I was 12 years old. Now listen to your dad. That that is much more important than having a talent, for sure.

[B]

And the final question, what is the golden rule, do you think, to living a high performance life?

[A]

For me, it's a ridden trespass of excellence, you know, perfection. You know, every single time you got to look at yourself, you look at the environment. How can we make another step? How can we make an improvement? Just keep thinking that if you are comfortable, you haven't tried hard enough. I think every day you got to think about, okay, have you put yourself out of your comfort zone once today? If you haven't, you haven't tried hard enough.

[B]

I. I've loved that conversation.

[A]

Thank you very much.

[B]

I cheer you on, by the way, because I'm a bit of a formula on purist, and I see a lot of teams backed by venture capitalists or I see teams backed by car manufacturers, and I don't see very many teams anymore that are a racer like Gene Haas in the mold of Eddie Jordan, a good friend of mine.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Putting his money in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Creating a small, scrappy, aggressive team.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You've gone for a guy in Esteban Ocon who had to fight to get into Formula one. A guy through Ollie Bearman who's got this amazing talent, and he needs someone to channel it into the right place. And I think in you, Haas have an amazing leader. And very interesting what you said about the culture previously and where it is now. And I think your legacy is not necessarily just winning races and picking up points. Your legacy is changing a culture in a team that allows the next generation of Formula one mechanics, engineers, and drivers to thrive.

[A]

Oh, thank you. Because that's what we're trying to build. You know, for me, the result is result. You know, you cannot control result 100%. Right. Some of it is out of your hands. But what you can control is your process, you know, so our process is like believing our core values. We're going to build a race winning team in the distant future with that core value, not diverting from that. And I believe we can do it.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Thank you, brother.

[A]

Thank you very much.

[B]

So there you have it. Ayo Komatsu's journey from near breaking point in Baku 2023 to building one of Formula One's most inspiring team cultures. And I think what stands out isn't just the technical brilliance, all the points haul over those years, it's the human side, the way that he learned from that painful period with Romain Grosjean, the trust he's built with Ollie Bearman and Esteban Ocon, the courage to have tough conversations, the transparency that changed a team on the brink of collapse into a genuinely unified operation. And you know, Haas are not the biggest team, right? They're not backed by a huge car manufacturer or a venture capitalist, but they've got something more valuable, a pure racing culture that I think is built on respect, humility and that relentless pursuit of excellence. As IO said, if you're comfortable, you haven't tried hard enough. So put yourself outside your comfort zone. Look, if you enjoyed this conversation, there are so many great Formula one chats that you can find. Carlos Sainz, Fernando Alonso, David Coulthard, Jensen Button, Christian Horner, Toto Wolff, Susie Wolff, Lando Norris, and so many more. If I read them all out, we'd be listening to this for another week. Don't forget, we release new conversations every Monday. You can also watch these episodes on YouTube. But please, if you love this hit, follow and maybe pass this episode to someone that you think would love it as well. Thanks for listening and I'll see you next time. In a world where January is supposed to be boring, one staple of the holidays refuses to end. The great deal's at Verizon. The joy just keeps on coming. Right now, you can save on four new phones and four lines. Critics agree it's the deal that keeps on giving. Come into Verizon and save on four new phones and four lines on unlimited. Welcome additional terms applied. Seeverizon.com for details.

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