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The High Performance Podcast
The Mind Coach Behind Team GB & Ronnie O'Sullivan on Mental Resilience | Prof. Steve Peters
01:03:41
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- [00:00]
Commercial Narrator
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- [00:31]
Jay Comfrey
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- [02:32]
Professor Steve Peters
So it's never too late to start saying, I'm going to understand my mind, how it works and I'm going to learn these skills. Never forget, once you've got more than two problems, you're not going to make it. Once we put things down and say, right, there are six things we're going to address, there's a sense of relief. You can't build resilience. Your mind is 100% resilient. And maybe I should have put that you're 100% resilient. How do we stop resilience from failing?
- [03:01]
Jay Comfrey
That is the voice of Professor Steve Peters. And this is High Performance. I'm Jay Comfrey. And as we head into 2026, there is no better time for this conversation, because today we sit down with Steve Peters, the man behind some of the greatest sporting minds of our generation. From Chris Hoy to Steven Gerrard, Ronnie o', Sullivan, the Liverpool Football Club, British cycling, England rugby, the list goes on. They've all worked with Steve to unlock their potential. But here's what's extraordinary about this episode. Because Steve doesn't just work with elite athletes, the tools that he's developed. The chimp paradox is a model that's transformed millions of ordinary lives. And it's all based on hard neuroscience that applies to every single one of us. So prepare for today's episode as we deep dive into how your mind actually works, why difficult conversations feel impossible, why you sabotage yourself, and most importantly, how to change it all. Steve is about to break down the three systems in your brain. Explain why your beliefs from childhood might be holding you back. And he also offers us the Stone of Life, what he calls the ultimate mind stabilizer. So if you're heading into 2026 wanting to understand yourself a little better, to finally crack those patterns that keep holding you back, this is essential listening as we. Welcome to High Performance, Professor Steve Peters. Steve, welcome to High Performance.
- [04:28]
Professor Steve Peters
Thank you for inviting me.
- [04:30]
Jay Comfrey
You've been described as the secret man behind some of the world's most successful people. When you first work with someone, what's the most important thing that you need to know about them from the off?
- [04:40]
Professor Steve Peters
What they want. And sometimes people don't know what they want. Or they give me something that they say, I want this. And then when you get into it, it's actually something different. So from my perspective, it's being able to get inside someone's head. And then when I get in there, it's the way I operate. It's not for Everyone I get inside their head and then I see the world the way they see it with the main key factors in it. And then usually because it's obviously it's not overly happy world I work in as a psychiatrist that then you realize what's wrong and you want to get out. So then you think, okay, these are the things that are really impressing me. And then you feed back to the person, which is how I work. And then we say, right, what will work for you? But I don't have fixed process. What I do is. It's more. The model I use is to give you the tools to do what you want to do. I'll give you some insights and question, is it this? So I would say to people, I set the same side of the table as you. If you work with me, we work together and we explore your mind. That's how I do it.
- [05:40]
Jay Comfrey
And I think a lot of people will see your name or see your CV and click on this episode because they think, actually there is something that I'd like to unlock. But not everyone can get access to you. Are we able, and this requires real honesty from you as well. Are we able to sit here for an hour or an hour and 20 minutes and actually have a conversation that will allow people to do some work on themselves afterwards?
- [06:00]
Professor Steve Peters
You can, because there's generally when I do like public speaking, which is always a privilege in the audience, when I first started, I asked people, what did you actually get from that? That because I needed feedback to know, obviously I have no idea. And it shook me a bit to think everybody picked something different up. And then I realized, well, you just got to throw things out and if it resonates, people will pick them up. If it doesn't, they'll just pass by it. So I'm not too worried. But you try and keep it fairly general. But as we said just off camera, my difficulty always with this is I asked for like five tips for the listeners and I can't do this. So I always try and say to people, don't ask me to do that because I don't know what's a tip for you until I get to know you. And it may be exactly the opposite from working with you and think, you know. So the answer is I can give generic things, you know, like, for example, know what your values are, because we know that. And I'm a nerd. I don't like to admit that, but I'm a nerd who has to read to make sure I know what I'm Doing rather than someone who is interested. I am interested to learn and use this with people. The research indicates simplifying it, that if we know our values and we live by them, you get peace of mind, and there's nothing else gives peace of mind. So it's a frequent thing that people ask me for is how do I get peace of mind? And I say, well, you've got to go on your values. When you go on your values and you monitor them, which I make people do, work and they start learning to do that, they'll say, yeah, at the end of the day, I look at my values and that settles me down completely.
- [07:35]
Jay Comfrey
Well, maybe we should start there then. If someone's listening to this and they go, right, I need to find my values. How do people go about doing that?
- [07:42]
Professor Steve Peters
I think there's lots of different ways it gets confusing because if you go on the Internet, you'll find that people define values differently. But so I'm going with what I do. And it's to say that a value is a moral stance with a behavior that's attached to it. And what we're gonna do is measure your behavior. So, for example, nearly everybody says, respect others. You know, there's not many people don't say that. And when they say, respect others and ask, well, how would you do that? They don't know, you know, because it is hard to say. And so I give them ideas of saying. One key one is to listen to people. So when you meet somebody, listen to what they have to say. Feedback. So you've understood. It doesn't mean you have to agree, but that actually empowers the person. And it's respecting them and it's respecting the fact that they've got an opinion and you're willing to listen to that and understand it. So if you do that, my experience is, if you measure that, people say it not only makes you feel good because you've got. You're living out a value, you know, you're respecting. Now it's not just in the air, but also they said you learn a lot because people tell you things you weren't really expecting or didn't actually appreciate.
- [08:46]
Damien Jake
So what are the other common. You said we can speak here about generic factors. What are the other common challenges that you help people face?
- [08:55]
Professor Steve Peters
As I'm going to go on what I've just said, because one of the common things I find is from neuroscience point of view, we can't deal with multiple problems. Our brain just does circles. So we just keep moving from one to the Other without solving anything. So going back to what I said when I meet you at first, let's get a piece of paper and say, write down all the things that you want to solve, all the problems you've got, whatever they are, just put them all down. And it can be current problems, things that have been processed in the past, worries about the future. Once we've got them all down, you'll feel a sense of relief that suddenly it's not endless. But if you've even got normally about three problems, your mind won't deal with it. It just moves one to the other. It never actually moves forward.
- [09:39]
Jay Comfrey
Why is that?
- [09:41]
Professor Steve Peters
Because it's not able to process the information. So when something's in your head, we know if you talk, you objectify it, you move outside. So, for example, expressing an emotion accurately, if you said, I'm angry and it's not actually the emotion that you're really giving, and I'm saying, is it more disapp? And you think actually is a better word, then we know from research done that once you've given it a name, it's an entity. We can now start to process it. If you don't express it or express it accurately, then your mind is still trying to tell you that's not the right word, or I can't find the word. So it just keeps going, trying to find a word. So the power of therapy is the fact that we talk out and on. The model I've used of the mind is our human. Our different system listens to what we're saying, which is why sometimes when we talk, we'll say, stop, that's ridiculous. Because suddenly we've expressed it and we're able to process it and put it into context or perspective, whereas in your head, you can't do that. I'm gonna ramble now, but I did a charity conference a long time ago, and I tried to get this concept over. And I live out in the wilds, and there were a lot of apple trees and fallen apples. So I took a lot of apples in and asked them to juggle, just to stop doing heavy academic work. And I could see the puzzle, look, said there's a reason. And everyone could do two apples. Most people couldn't do three. Nobody managed four. And I know they're probably the juggler, which they exist. And I said, that's how your mind works. Never forget, once you've got more than two problems, you're not gonna make it. Your mind's gonna start stressing and going round and round. Now There will be exceptions to the room, but my experience has been, once we put things down and they say, right, there's six things we're gonna address. There's a sense of relief because now we have a plan, which is what the brain is looking for.
- [11:27]
Jay Comfrey
And can we get that sense of relief without sitting down with someone like you? Can we do this at home?
- [11:32]
Professor Steve Peters
Yeah, you can do it yourself. I think it helps because again, we're diving in a bit, but simplifying all the time. But the brain wants someone to understand us. We're built to be understood. When people don't understand us, our brain gets quite agitated. So if somebody gets where you're coming from, just one person, you get this, right? I'm okay now. So again, talking out with someone who can tease it out of you and say, I get this, can help on that aspect of what the brain needs. Whereas if I do it myself, saying, I write all the problems, it can work. So some people can do it, but most people like someone to hear them and then acknowledge that.
- [12:16]
Damien Jake
I really like the example you mentioned there, though, about. About taking an emotion and exploring it for the subtlety. We had a guest on that spoke about feeling jealous of a competitor. And then when she explored it, she wasn't jealous. She said she was envious because she wanted that and that she felt that was more empowering.
- [12:33]
Professor Steve Peters
That's a brilliant example. So again, that's the kind of thing that might come to the door where you're listening and you challenge this. The reason we're not moving on is it's the wrong word. And then when you explore that and we look at envious, I would push again, I have no idea who this was. Don't need to know, but I don't know where it's gonna go. But I come underneath the envy. What's underpinning that? And sometimes it can be a feeling of low self esteem, for example, and the idea that if I achieve something that will give me the self esteem, which we know doesn't work because you just dismiss it and you've achieved it. It's very rare that you hold onto it and say, I'm so proud of this. You get unsettled to think, well, that was yesterday. Or I've even had Olympians saying, well, everyone's got an Olympic medal, so you know, which obviously isn't true. But that's the way your brain works it. Normal you've actually achieved and then usually dismisses it. Again, there will be exceptions.
- [13:28]
Damien Jake
Would you just tell us more about the self esteem thing, because that I can imagine is quite a common challenge that lots of people have of dealing with low self esteem.
- [13:38]
Professor Steve Peters
So I'm going to go again, neuroscience, because that's my background. So where am I as a doctor? I'd be saying, right, let's look at what your brain is doing. And as you know, I invented this chimp model and the reason I brought that in is to say you've got to recognize there are two different systems operating, this is clear. So one of the systems here is meant for survival. It's not an advantage to have high self esteem because if you have a high self esteem, you leave yourself very vulnerable. So having low self esteem you're much more vigilant to potential attacks. So actually it's an advantage to have self esteem, but it's not helpful. It's not helpful. So what I say to people is, we're not going to lose that. We're going to say, right, we'll challenge the low self esteem and say what's its purpose? And we'll replace it with something much more rational. So we move systems and then we start saying, right, how would you measure self esteem? And what you'll find is generally the reason we've gone into survival low self esteem for protection is we're looking externally to see what we've achieved and what other people think of us. Rather than moving system, which is, it's not about other people, it's what I think of myself. And we're back to values and then suddenly self esteem rises because it's not based on achievement, on possession, on what other people think. It's based on me and the way I'm conducting myself and living my life.
- [14:59]
Damien Jake
I think what would be really useful, Steve, if you wouldn't mind, is would you tell us about how we can spot when we're in the chimp system? And then you talk about moving it to the human. So how do we do that?
- [15:11]
Professor Steve Peters
The rule I always use, which works usually is to just say, do I want this? Do I want to rely on what other people think for my happiness? So once I've got that question and nearly everyone says no, and I say, okay, there's an alternative and that's own your own happiness. So it's a skill. Now this is your difficulty. So let's say my chimp brain would be concerned about what you think I'm saying and is it coming over well and you know, so my chimp would now naturally do it, but then that's giving you my happiness so many, many years ago as a psych, I thought, I'm gonna have to be balanced myself if I'm gonna help people. So I worked on myself, and these were epiphanies I had that said, you know, as long as I keep looking to you for my happiness, I'm in trouble because it only needs you to make one comment, and I'm down. So I decided, no, there must be a way I can take my happiness back. And that's what I worked on. But that was a skill. It didn't happen overnight. And I'd have to check myself and think, hang on, you're giving them me happiness again. And then have to say, what do you want? I don't want that. That's a chimp trying to say, I rely on you to keep me in the troop. I want it to say, I'm not in a troop. I'm not in the jungle. I'm a human being in a society, and I own my happiness. So that skill had to be worked on, and you have to continually do it. It's a bit like getting fit for me. Emotional skills, you've got to keep practicing, otherwise you go off. So it's not something you learn, and then that's it. It's something you practice every day.
- [16:41]
Jay Comfrey
But I think this is actually a powerful thing just to pick up on for a moment, because we all know people that go, oh, I'm not very resilient. I'm a natural worrier. I'm just the kind of person that cares what other people think. I just want to get across that you're talking about, this is a skill. This is a learned behavior that just because you think a certain way now doesn't mean that's the only way your brain can think again.
- [17:03]
Professor Steve Peters
I think it's important to understand how you find yourself, which I try and do with people. And that is. And I put these in the books that the blank piece of paper exercise. So when I started working on this, it became obvious that if you think about. If we remove this influence of this primitive survival system which thinks for us, and we remove the center of the brain, which is like stored information and automatic behaviors, you're left with yourself. You're left with this part of the brain we can't actually control. It's the only bit we can control. So then I say, let's imagine I've surgically removed them, and you're left. You've got a blank piece of paper. How do you want to be? And you would say confident, happy, carefree, you know, compassionate sense of humor. And what I keep saying, you've just described yourself. It's an epiphany. If people can grasp this, you've now told me who you are. I've got you. What they then say is which they say to me, but, Steve, I'm not calm. I'm not. And I say, yes, you are. Don't confuse what the brain is doing. It comes in and takes over, hijacks you and presents to the world someone who's anxious. But for you to tell me when you walk in, how's your week? Oh, I get so anxious. Scientifically, that's just inaccurate. So I correct people and say, that's not possible. It's not on your list. You don't put the perfect me anxious. And you say, that's clearly the influence of either the chimp or the computer system. So now we need to learn how we manage that to prevent it presenting to the world. And if you think there's some obvious things that if you look, you'll see it. Reality is your partner, if you've got one, or your brother, sister, if they're close or best friend knows you, and they'll tell you, this is you. I've seen the calm, confident. But then they say, but when you get into this situation, and they're describing what I saw 30 years ago, the brain shifted and it went into a system that we're given at during fetal life. And so I'm saying, move back again.
- [18:59]
Jay Comfrey
Do you mean we're giving it during.
- [19:00]
Professor Steve Peters
Fetal in the fetus, the. This chimp system and computer system start taking off. So they're operational within eight weeks of fetal life so we can measure them moving. Whereas the human systems I'm calling as you, you don't come into being till around three, so you don't really exist, which I always joke about, because you have no memory. So it's telling you you weren't there, you know, for three years. And we know this. Anyone who's got kids, they're just little robots.
- [19:27]
Jay Comfrey
It's depressing because you spend loads of money on expensive holidays and you say to your kids, did you love that? And they're like, what? We went where? We did what?
- [19:34]
Professor Steve Peters
Where? Can't remember. But at three, you come in because the system that we operate with is rational, logical. And so they say, why? So the second they have the why questions, you've arrived. And it's important that parents then prime that system because, again, if you use that system predominantly in the neurological terms, it myelinates, which means it's preferential and uses it at speed. Whereas if you push them back to a chimp system, which is dominance behavior, you'll end up myelinating the chimp system and the child therefore will preferentially use that. So they'll use emotion as the basis of going forward rather than logic.
- [20:11]
Jay Comfrey
So, you know, we have a mental health crisis among young people in the UK. What's happening then from the age of three when they start asking why to the age of 12 or 13 when they need to seek therapy?
- [20:22]
Professor Steve Peters
Yeah, I mean, I don't want to make people feel guilty. I'm going to. But you watch and observe people and what happens is I'm exaggerating for effect. But the parent or teacher or whoever's in charge of guardian will the child say why? Why? And it becomes incessant. And then you hear them say, because I said so. And if you think that taking, stripping it down to what it is is a dominance, you will do. Because I said there's no collaboration, there's no empowerment, it's total dominance and removing. So what you've done is you've said to them, that's how my system works, the chimp system, I dominate, you do. So they moved into the chimp system. So then they agitate and rebel. But you created that. Now, it's not as easy as I'm saying it. I understand that children are in chimp mode a lot, but if you actually sat down and it's hard when you're a busy parent or a teach with 30 odd kids to say, can I explain why I'm saying this? The child may not understand still and still kick off, but you're actually sowing seeds that the child's learning that. When you have a question, why? I'll answer it as best I can. I don't want you to do that because it can be simple. Don't eat sweets because they're not that healthy compared to your food. And if you eat sweets, you won't eat your dinner, you know, they'll kick and say, well, I will eat my dinner, you know, so then you have to persuade them, but it's reasoning rather than just going, right, here's the sweets taken away, you will wa. And then you have tantrums and you're promoting the chimp behaviors so they'll carry it on. So the danger is if we use this parent system where you are the judge, jury, executioner, it's a subtle one and I push this in the books to say, what we tend to do with children is we compliment Things they do instead of asking them to compliment themselves or criticize themselves. So we're not building analytical, self awareness, self criticism, self compliment. If you do that and the evidence is overwhelming and you start as young as four, so you ask them, when you paint a picture, tell them what's good, what's not so good, what would you improve on? You can still give approval after they're given a constructive opinion. Ten years on, they don't get thrown around by things like social media because they're the judge, not what people say. Whereas if we keep saying that's a wonderful picture, what we're doing is externalizing, again, approval. So what you've now got is they move through life looking for your approval because you're priming that so they won't actually then say, well, I'm actually pleased with what I've done, or I think I could have done better here in a very objective way, which is a skill and we have to teach children. But the evidence is if we do that at 14, they then become more self supportive, more self critical, and the resilience stirs.
- [23:05]
Jay Comfrey
That is some of the most powerful parenting advice I've ever heard on this show. You know.
- [23:08]
Damien Jake
Well, it is, but I'm interested, Steve, in that. And like, my children are a little bit older than four and I'm thinking, can this.
- [23:15]
Professor Steve Peters
You're gonna tell me you've ruined them?
- [23:16]
Jay Comfrey
Go on.
- [23:16]
Damien Jake
Well, no, I'm wondering, like, can you undo some of these habits then?
- [23:20]
Professor Steve Peters
Yes. Yeah. It's not as easy. We know there are windows of development, and so we do know, and I'm speaking very generally, that between around 4 and 8, we know that there's a big influence on the child's brain and its development, depending what we stimulate it too. So the more we activate the brain during those years, we know the pathways operate better later on. But that doesn't mean you've lost it, it just means there were windows. I mean, I'll give you a simple example. If you've got parents who are bilingual, the child will easily speak two languages by the time it's five, you know, because the brain is easy. But you try bringing it in at 10 and the brain has already reset to English or whichever language you've got. And then it finds it mostly a bit more of a struggle unless it's adept at doing that. So we find a second language more difficult. So, and it's similar with all concepts in the brain, you're priming them. And the brain then is more or less starting to fix around 8, 9 year old, but it's still pliable. You can learn a language at my age, you know, it just means it may be a bit more difficult because you primed your brain at three or four.
- [24:26]
Jay Comfrey
Yeah. How much do you know about the impact of social media and the fact that so many young people seem to now get their validation from what they see online or the things they share?
- [24:38]
Professor Steve Peters
Well, as I say that, to me, I'm generalizing and there's lots of factors, so I'm sure there's a lot more to them, what I'm giving you. But we're saying right from the beginning, we've learned that external validation is the way things work from parents, teachers, school. We've learned we're given grades, we're given results. Instead of saying, what do you think? What do you think's important? What do you feel you're doing well at? How would you improve yourself? And then a child that does that is able to criticize. I won't give any names, but I did this a long time ago with a group of coaches in sport many years ago, and one of the guys, a wife, was about to have a baby and he said, my child will not be what I call the fridge door syndrome. And that means you put the picture on the fridge door because you approve of it instead of the child deciding. And six years on, true story. He came to me and said, I've got to speak to you, I've got to speak to you. We went to a school open day, first parent evening, and they said, why can't all children be like him? Because he doesn't mind trying anything. He doesn't get upset if he can't do it. So I was pleased, but I was quite so. It was a backhanded comment because he said, so what you do actually works. I thought, well, it's nice to know I spent my life doing it. But it was nice to hear that because it was evidence, again, small anecdotal, but that we can change it. As I said, we can actually change the way people start assessing themselves. Like I gave you an example on your own happiness, you can start learning and that's going to give you resilience. We've talked already about values. That's going to give you peace of mind. So it's never too late to start saying, I'm going to understand my mind, how it works and I'm going to learn these skills and I'm going to keep going.
- [26:19]
Jay Comfrey
Brilliant.
- [26:20]
Professor Steve Peters
So it's never too late.
- [26:21]
Damien Jake
But there is something as well Steven, this is a bit of a personal request in many ways that I often struggle with sort of difficult conversations with people. So even though I might own my own happiness, I'm often conscious of the happiness of other people, that if I say no, I might cause upset or disappointment. And I really struggle to have those conversations.
- [26:43]
Professor Steve Peters
Why are you worried about them being upset? If there's something you're saying which is honest, genuine, and coming from your heart, because sometimes being upset is not a bad thing. It sort of jolts us to think, oh, wow, that's upset me. If the person blames you, then obviously I'd say they do. In chimp mode, you can't do much, but you're likely that they'll go away and reflect on that. So if you said something to me and it hurt and I thought, wow, you know, after I've got away from you and I start reflecting, well, the guy actually might have a bit of truth in this. So actually you've done some good. But the fact I might get upset, you know, I don't think that should worry you because you have to think sometimes you've got to say things which are uncomfortable. I'm not saying what where you're upsetting people.
- [27:26]
Damien Jake
Sure. Well, I mean, I don't think you are.
- [27:29]
Jay Comfrey
I don't think you are, but I think you worry. You almost write a story in your head that this is going to be awful, they're going to be disappointed, I'm going to let them down. But Damien can't say no.
- [27:39]
Professor Steve Peters
But that's a belief, you see, of that if I say no or whatever it is, that that person is upset and therefore I'm in the wrong. And my job is not to upset people. And I'm challenging that belief to say your job is to be honest and using integrity. I'm being again, sweeping generalized statements here. But if you said to me, Steve, I resonate with that, then do what you're doing. If they get upset, that's not your problem. If you've been reasonable and honest, then you have to say that's reasonable, that being upset might help them in the long run.
- [28:10]
Damien Jake
So the idea then of exploring beliefs is interesting because as you say in was that line you said there about beliefs, that my belief is that if I don't comply or if I don't help you when I could do that means that you might not love me, you might not come back and ask me for help again. I might disappoint you and I don't like disappointing you. How do we Start to rewrite some of these beliefs that we might have had since we were kids.
- [28:37]
Professor Steve Peters
But you've got the nail on the head. It's coming back from way back when. So you got to look and see, how did you learn that? You know, and I don't want to do this on camera, but if I were doing an analysis of you, you start thinking your own insecurity. Sometimes I don't know why you're doing it, but it's. If I gain approval from them, don't upset them, then that's better.
- [29:00]
Damien Jake
Yeah.
- [29:00]
Professor Steve Peters
So you're not approving of yourself, just going back to the conversation we just had. You're getting external validation for you being this great person, this good person, and then your belief is, if they're happy of what I've done or that makes me a good person, instead of saying, actually, it doesn't make you a good person, it makes them happy. That's all it does. But it could come at a cost. And the cost is to you and to them that, you know, sometimes not being happy is not a bad thing.
- [29:28]
Jay Comfrey
You've mentioned resilience a few times, and in your new book, A Path through the Jungle, you start the book by talking about two key attributes, robustness and resilience. Why were they so important that that was the first message you wanted people to see in that book?
- [29:45]
Professor Steve Peters
The reason was that these are only my terms as well. So as I'm saying, I'm not trying to say I'm right, I'm not. I'm saying when I'm working with people, we need to know what the term really means. So if you work with me, to be robust means you have a plan. You know, it's like saying, is this toy robust? It's been manufactured. So we test it out, we think it's robust, then we hand it to the kids, and then we find whether it is or not. So the robustness is you having a plan. So you say, right, here's my plan of when I leave this room, I'm going to rely on my values. I'm going to rely on working in reality. I'm going to be able to. To get perspective. Now we're going to go outside and test it. So robustness, everyone can do. There's no excuse for not having plans. It's just a lot of work. But it may need a lot of guidance when you've got robustness going out. Resilience, I'm defining as a skill. So it may not work. You're going to have to learn how to be resilient. But I'm going to contradict myself when I wrote this. Everyone says, build resilience, build resilience. The science doesn't actually backs that. What it does, which I do say, but people don't like it, is you are resilient. You can't build resilience. Your mind is 100% resilient. And maybe I should have put that. What I'm really saying is you're 100% resilient. How do we stop resilience from failing? We are resilient. We have very resilient brains. But what we have is parts of the brain like your little gremlins, which reduce resilience. So it's not truly building resilience, but it's an easy concept to say, right, we'll build a skill, and therefore we'll see more and more resilience come. The reality is we're removing things that are stopping resilience.
- [31:27]
Damien Jake
And what are the biggest things that we do to impede our resilience?
- [31:33]
Professor Steve Peters
Well, the brain has certain areas which I talk about one bit called the what if button. And it literally is an area of the brain which uses what if? And it depends how we use what if. But if we use it emotionally, it'll ask questions like, what if I fail my GCSEs? What if I fail my driving test? What if my partner leaves me? And these are emotional questions and we often sit with them, we don't answer them. So if you don't answer them, then your resilience is gonna start tumbling and it goes through your head. And instead of sitting with the problem, you gotta say, well, let's look at what's the solution there. So what if my partner leaves me? And then you've gotta challenge it. Now, if someone says to me, I will fall apart and life's not worth living, if that's non negotiable, I have to say, let's look at the consequences and let's work very hard on not let them leave. But if I say, right, let's really challenge that belief and rationalize it. Most people start saying, okay, it's not what I want. I will go through grief, I will be upset. I'll survive. There is life after that can actually help the relationship because you then. And again, I'm exaggerating and I'm generalizing. You're not as needy, so there's no reason to then try and control them and stop them leaving, which is what we do when we haven't got a plan in case they leave. So we have plans if it goes wrong. Now that's a different question. If if my partner leaves me as an emotional question. Oh, I'll go through if my partner leaves me. What's the plan is now actually using that what if button from the human rather than the chimpanzee. So the button's available to both. But it's a different what if question.
- [33:12]
Jay Comfrey
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- [34:24]
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- [34:54]
Professor Steve Peters
Meet Olivia.
- [34:55]
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- [34:56]
Professor Steve Peters
Olivia dreams big.
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I want to go back to school and get a pet and buy a house and save for retirement and travel the world.
- [35:03]
Professor Steve Peters
That's quite the list.
- [35:04]
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Thank you.
- [35:05]
Professor Steve Peters
Numerica Credit Union is the perfect partner to help turn Olivia's dreams into reality.
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Really?
- [35:10]
Professor Steve Peters
Yep. We're all about helping our members create a life that feels like theirs. And we have the tools, expertise and guidance to make it happen.
- [35:17]
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- [35:19]
Professor Steve Peters
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- [36:00]
Damien Jake
So it sounds like we've heard a term from one of our guests about pre mortems. Almost work out what the things that could kill me and then plan for how I deal with them.
- [36:09]
Professor Steve Peters
Yeah, yeah. The principle of the brain is when you use the human system, it always says let's start with what we've got and then we move forward. What's the plan? To use what's presenting to me. Whereas the chimp doesn't do that. It can't. It starts with what I want and in compares to reality, which is not a good way to start. But that's how it does. And that's what most people go through the day with. Hence you get road rage. You're saying I want the traffic to flow smoothly. No one jumps in, no one cuts me up. Everyone's, you know, it's so. I'm glad you're laughing. It's so ridiculous. It's a ridiculous concept. There are always going to be idiots on the road or people having a bad day or people are making mistakes. But our chimps don't interpret any of that. It's just I am not getting what I expect to happen. So here we go. And that's ridiculous. Yes. So you can set off in a different mode by saying there will be idiots, there'll be people who make mistakes and there are people who might regret what they've done. But again, do you want to go into chimp mode?
- [37:09]
Jay Comfrey
So we're not realizing then generally, and again, I'm generalizing as well. We don't realize that our thinking is what's tripping us up. We're here going, all the world's tripping us up. Idiots on the roads are making me unhappy. Late tubes are frustrating me. Partners that won't listen are angering me. Children that don't get ready for school in time frustrate me. And actually so much of that is our interpretation of those things.
- [37:27]
Professor Steve Peters
Yeah. And this is probably you've hit what I really do with people. And that is to say, you know, when I mentioned the human and chimp is the bottom line is whenever I work with anyone, I take them away from their world. Because I keep saying if we can get you in a room and get your robustness and prepare for resilience. If someone's in a good place, nothing touches them. If someone's not in a good place, anything can touch them. That's my philosophy and I stick to that. So I say if I can get you in a good place and show you how to run your mind, nothing's gonna touch you. The kids won't touch you getting late for school. Cause you'll deal with it. Someone cuts you up, you won't have road rage. In fact, nothing's gonna get to you. Now I'm not wanting people to be robots, but I'm saying you'll manage any feeling you get any emotion. But generally most of the negative emotions won't appear, they just don't happen. And I get that from people that say, normally I'd go mad and suddenly nothing happened.
- [38:27]
Damien Jake
So is it technique? Would you tell us the technique then, Steve, about how. Because I'm thinking it might be like before you get in the car, almost saying to yourself, there's going to be idiots, there's going to be crashes, there's going to be hold ups. Let's just deal with that in a calm way. Is that the kind of.
- [38:43]
Professor Steve Peters
Yeah, I mean, keep it simple because although the neuroscience is very heavy and I've simplified it just so people can access their mind, it is comple. And the devil is in the detail. But if you keep it simple. So you say to me, I get road rage, right? So I would say first of all, stop. You don't get road rage. You don't. Your chimp gets road rage. You know, on your perfect blank piece of paper, you don't write road rage. So you'll say, now that's crazy. So we're saying, right? Recognize it's not you. You need to understand what the chimp's doing and correct it and say, that's not helpful. So have a relationship with this part of your brain. So then I'd say, right, when you're setting off, I'm being simplistic to learn the emotional skill is before you set off, say, right, we know it's going to happen. We know these events are possible, right? So when they happen, I'm going to program my computer with some beliefs, such as. And I'll give you an example, which is a true story. I did a conference and a guy come up to cube people, which I encourage, and he's. They were challenging, but this guy did, and he just said, I get road rage and it's really bad. And I didn't know what to do because I've got like 20 seconds. So I said to him, I'll tell you what, drive your car. Put your hands up. And he's driving the wheel. And I said, right, okay, I've cut you up. Show me what you do. It was perfect. He waved his hands and started blaspheming. I said, what do you look like? And he laughed. And he said, a chimp. I said, well, that's fine. Then if you want to look like a chimp, do it. Let me know how it goes. And he never had road rage again. And paradoxically, he said, my chimp didn't want to look like a chimp. And he said, it stopped me. He said, don't look foolish. So you actually used the chimp against itself.
- [40:17]
Jay Comfrey
That's amazing. So what we're saying then is to the audience listening to this, you choose what to believe.
- [40:23]
Professor Steve Peters
Exactly. You have to decide. I want to go to work and enjoy it. I want to set off good, good place. I want to end in a good place. But I'm preparing for anything that might happen. But anything that happens, I'm going to program my compute because it works quicker than chimp and human. So your computer's going to come in, not you. You're not going to talk to your chimp. It's going to do it. Because the chimp, the way the brain's structured, the chimp must consult the computer before it reacts. And that's done in, you know, a fifth of second. It's very fast. So if you primed it with what I call the autopilot, which goes, I don't want to look like a chimp. Someone cuts you up. As the chimp is about to screech, it pauses. And then you'll say, nothing happened because the computer took over and advised the chimp and then said, no, we pull back and we can prime you to say, when someone cuts you up, just pull back. And then I want you to talk about. And it may not resonate with you. How good do you feel at being able to pull back? And if someone says, do you know what I feel? Empowered. It's no different to my previous existence as a forensic psych. And you get people with anger management problems and they'll say, are they against their chimp? And then I'll say to them, would a strong man get in a fight or would they walk away? And I'm being again, simplistic to do it. And the guys who go, actually, a strong man walks away, they said, you feel so good, you just don't engage it. And they said, it actually changed me. And I perceived myself then as this powerful guy. But again, it may not resonate, but this is why I keep saying it's up to people, anyone listening to make their mind up, to explore their mind and say, let me start understanding. And they don't have to use my model, the chimp model. I think there's lots of good stuff out there. And so I encourage people to get something that resonates with you. And although I'm an academic, I'm a professor in the university and therefore I've gone evidence based. I want to see. I would say, if something works for you and it's not evidence based, I'm not too worried.
- [42:21]
Damien Jake
What about dealing with pressure? Because that's a common feature that we've met in our high performers, that a distinction is those that can lean into pressure rather than lean away from it. Let's say it's somebody that has to perform on a certain day. If you take the Olympics where you have to turn up on that day and that's going to determine a gold medal or otherwise. So how would you help them prepare for that key moment? For other people, it might be an exam or it might be a presentation. In the non sporting world, again, I.
- [42:57]
Professor Steve Peters
Have to work with the person. So I'm going to be very generic and say, right, is it helping you? Is it helping you to think I have one chance, is that actually helping? And the reason you laugh is most people going, not really, no. So why would you choose to focus on that? You know, you do have a choice. You do have a choice. And again, here's a skill. So we're going to say, what would help? So if you got an Olympian, what's going to help them to get the best out of it? And it's clear then it's just process driven, you know, so then we say, right, what would stop you sticking to process? Now? I don't know what they're going to say. They might say, the crowd, you know, it's all right saying don't focus. But I go into an Olympic arena, say, like as a track and field event and you've got X thousand people and, you know, cameras, then there's millions of people watching. And then they go back to. It is one chance, you know. And so we have to say, right, how we're going to manage that? So we're going to learn how do you get into complete focus and you remove it. Now I can only. I can give you a famous person because they've gone public about this and obviously it's a good friend and that's Chris Hoy. When I first started working, I went to privileged Athens Olympics and he had to do the kilo. And I got on really well with Chris straight away. He's a very easy guy, very easy guy if you don't know him, real gentleman. And when we got there, we had primed him to go focus, focus, focus, because it was an event which he could easily do by focus, so heart and soul into it. And on the day, he said after the event he got his gold and he said he forgot where he was, that's how well he'd done. But we primed that for twice a day, 20 minutes at the holding camp. I know he's gone public about this and give me permission to speak.
- [44:45]
Damien Jake
And he spoke on here about it as well, Steve.
- [44:47]
Professor Steve Peters
Right. And I remember him saying he looked up and saw the flags and remembered it was the Olympics. Now that's perfection. Which he was a guy who could really commit to it. So there's an example where he's not a super being in the sense of, well, it must have been natural for him. It wasn't. He worked on it and he worked hard to say, right, I'm gonna get there. He bought in and just go into complete, what I call computer mode. Now, that's not as easy in a footballer. So we have to use a very different technique because you can't stay in it. It's not as easy in someone like snooker, where I'm involved heavily. Golf, they all have their peculiarities. So again, I've gotta go to their world, having got them in a good place and say, right, you've chosen to do this sport or this business or this career, and now I have to understand the nuances. So I'm no expert in sport, but I go to each sport and think, what is it you're perceiving as the stress points or the distraction points? And then I work with them on what they are perceiving.
- [45:49]
Jay Comfrey
We've had some incredible conversations on this show with footballers who talk about the kind of unrelenting pressure of Being in that world. And I know some. Some of them have gone public of, you know, your work with the England team with Raheem Sterling. And he was very happy to speak about how you gave him some freedom when you. When you worked.
- [46:08]
Professor Steve Peters
I have to say, one of the nicest guys around.
- [46:10]
Jay Comfrey
Is that right?
- [46:10]
Professor Steve Peters
He always started, I'm gonna embarrass him if he's listening. Yeah. He always started by saying, can I thank you for seeing me? And I thought, you know, it should be did. The way Raheem, you know, it's my privilege to meet people, but he was such a genuine man, and he gave me his England football shirt, which I've still got signed. And that's.
- [46:26]
Jay Comfrey
And are you okay to. To talk about what you worked on with him? I mean, he's spoken, hasn't he?
- [46:31]
Professor Steve Peters
Yeah. I wouldn't go into detail, but I'd say that again. Raheem was good in that he would tell me what was troubling him, what he didn't want, and then what he did want. So he was easy to say, right, this is what I want to do. And then I would. Exactly what I'm saying. I would say, let me tease out, what beliefs have you got that are holding you to have these behaviors that are not helping? And he'd say, well, yeah, but. And then he gave me X, Y, Z, and I'd say, can we challenge them? Them? And then he changed the belief and go, you're right, you're right. Don't know why I'm thinking that.
- [47:00]
Jay Comfrey
So when you work with a footballer, is it.
- [47:02]
Damien Jake
Is it.
- [47:03]
Professor Steve Peters
Let me give you an example to make it concrete. This is not what Raheem did, All right? This is working with others. If you've got a striker and they go to get a goal and they miss and they miss and they miss. And the crowds are unforgiving. We know that they're unforgiving. So now they got this, you know, hissing booing. They're feeling. They're letting the team down. They feel that I'm not scoring, and then finally they score. But in the meantime, they've been so unsettled emotionally that they're making erratic decisions. They're saying, I start taking chances, which causes to lose the ball, and it's dangerous, you know? So we go through all this, and then you say, well, I'm being simplistic again. If you take a top strike. And I did the work on it. I took out all the top strikers and looked at teams like Spanish, Italians, where you had high fly Teams and said, let's look at theirs. What's the strike rate? What's the success rate? It's as simple as this. And it was something between 1 in 4 and 1 in 8. And I said, so let's look at your strike rate. And it was one in five. What's it telling you? That in itself made them relax. I'm allowed to miss it. The crowd are gonna boo. But remember, they will cheer when you get your one in five, keep going. That made them. So they said, I'm more rational in my approach. I'm not getting nervous or anxious about am I gonna miss again? I'm just saying, just strike. So and that confidence to think I'm allowed to have a go and deal with the crown, they'll be okay. They're meant to boo. Those beliefs then all changed. So if you're working with someone in that position, My experience was once we'd nailed all the beliefs and they tried it, they said it's great.
- [48:45]
Jay Comfrey
We think that one of the biggest attributes we see time and time again from people that sit in your chair, you know, so called high performers is optimism. Is this ability to keep on going even when they get things wrong.
- [48:55]
Professor Steve Peters
Yeah.
- [48:56]
Jay Comfrey
Does that make sense?
- [48:57]
Professor Steve Peters
Yeah, yeah. Again, I mean it's beliefs you have. And I try and get this to people to say, you know, if you're going to see life as opportunity, it'll be great. If you see it as threat, it's going to always be defensive. So it's a choice. You have a choice. You can say, right, what opportunities can I see in this? You know, there's always learning opportunities, but people don't know how to find them and they don't even know that they're there. And once you start training people and teach them and say, what happened today? What was the opportunity? It can be simple things. I know it sounds crazy like I'm a coffee addict here. And we go and the coffee machine's broken and there's no coffee. And I think, okay, now most people go into chimp mode and think, what? This is crazy, this place. And it's so unhelpful. And you think, what's your learning opportunity? And most people would say, I have no idea, didn't get any coffee. And I say, how about when things go wrong, how do you want to come across? You know? Or if they don't resonate, how do you want to get perspective? Is it going to matter? And they go, not really. Apply that now for the next week with me and tell me where you Suddenly thought, get perspective. Get perspective, or does it really matter? And they say, wow, you know, because if that's what they keep doing, they say, it's a different world I live in now because I'm not getting complaints. I'm not getting up at you. I'm not getting annoyed or frustrated. So I'm being, again, simplicity. But it's the principle that when you've got to get someone to learn. So the opportunistic thing and then being very positive, I think it's more to me of learning to make sensible choices. And that makes the world opportunistic. It makes it more interesting. Otherwise, you're on defense all the time. And feared.
- [50:45]
Jay Comfrey
Before we finish and move to our quick fire questions, I want to talk to you about Stone of Life.
- [50:50]
Professor Steve Peters
Yes.
- [50:50]
Jay Comfrey
You describe it as the ultimate mind stabilizer.
- [50:54]
Professor Steve Peters
Yeah.
- [50:54]
Jay Comfrey
And I really do want people to come to the end of this brilliant conversation and have a genuine understanding of how they could try and think differently. And I think the idea of the Stone of Life is so powerful. Would you talk to us about it? Yeah.
- [51:08]
Professor Steve Peters
What I tried to do when I did this work, and I thanked the students at Sheffield Medical School who challenged me every step of the way when I brought it in. And they loved it, but they were relentlessly unforgiving, which is great. And I had to prove it evidence based. But they were saying, it's great to have these, what I call autopilot. So let's go back to your road rage. Do I want to look like a champ? Well, that's great, but you're gonna have to have an autopilot for every single thing that happens. Like, there's no coffee. What's the autopilot? I said, well, autopilots help in specific circumstances, like road rage, but there are the sledgehammer ones, which apply everywhere, virtually everywhere. And that is, there are three areas which I. Again, my patients taught me this. And I thought, there are three things that everyone who has resilience is demonstrating. And if we can get that. Which I then started teaching people, this is the Stone of Life. Three areas. This is the basis for being stable. And one, we've talked about values because that gives you peace of mind. The other two go together. That is, I've talked about reality, where it is what it is. There are certain rules of life. So again, I'll divert to a common one that I get is people want to be popular, but the rule of life is, and again, I'm generalizing it, one in five people don't like you. It doesn't matter who you are. It doesn't matter generally. I said they're the same miserable people. Don't like anybody. But why are you gonna worry about that? You can't please them to stop trying. One in five people love you, and no matter what you do, they're gonna love you. So make your world around them. It's great. All right. Both are deluded, but they're great delusions. And three, in people, if you're reasonable, they like you. May not be great buzz and buddies. So if you use that as a rule of life, that's the truth of life. You put that on a reality check, you know, that's. You can't negotiate that. But people have to work these out. That's one of mine. They may not agree with me, which case, they might say 50% of people are not nice. 50%, okay, well, that's still going to be a rule. So you have to work out what's your truth. You know, not everyone's going to be nice to me. Is a truth. You know, there's always an opportunity in every experience is a truth. These are solid things you can fall back on. So. And I work out because they're solid and they apply to everything. So again, nothing really matters in the end. Might not resonate with some. It resonates with me. So therefore I can apply that to road rage. It's not going to matter at the end of the day. So why am I investing in it? So that's a sledgehammer, and I can use that anyway. There's no coffee. Nothing really matters in the end. And if it resonates, I can use that anywhere. So I prime people with the truths of life and they're unique to the person. And then the final bit was perspective. We know that the chimp system neuroscientifically has no perspective. It has no time awareness. So that's why if we go through, like a grief reaction, so we lose someone close and the chimp system is in operation, when we wake up, it feels like it's happened today, even though it was 20 years ago. And it's the same powerful emotions. It doesn't respect time, which is a problem when it comes to decision making because it can't see time and give some context or perspective. The human can't not use time, so we use another area of the brain, which brings time in. So if we switch to the human and give perspective, then we get a big, big stabilizer. Everything comes and goes. You know, whatever situation I'm in now, we'll move on. Contextualize it and looking at your life in general and will it matter in a week's time? That's a good perspective. And most people say that resonates. So there's a lot you can do of using I like pills have their own perspective. And then you use that. Remind yourself, let's bring this in. So if you start your day with perspective, values, and the truths of life, before you set off, you'll set off in human mode.
- [55:06]
Damien Jake
That's amazing.
- [55:07]
Professor Steve Peters
Is that all right?
- [55:07]
Damien Jake
I love it more than all right.
- [55:09]
Professor Steve Peters
Thank you very much.
- [55:10]
Jay Comfrey
Steve.
- [55:10]
Damien Jake
Can I ask you one question here? And because we were intrigued to do this, a common question we ask our guests is how much of their success they would attribute down to their mental skills and how much of it is down to their physical skills. To give you a context, the great runner Michael Johnson told us it was 100% mental. He attributed his success to Hussein Bol, suggested that his was 100% physical. Kelly Holmes told us it was 8020 in favor of the mental over the physical. So we've had, like, a real spectrum of responses. What would your answer to that be.
- [55:47]
Professor Steve Peters
For first one that analyze them. I think that. I don't think there's a real answer for people because like you're saying, if Usain Bolt is in a good place anyway, then he doesn't need that. It's not everyone needs to. If you say, well, actually I'm okay. Whereas if Michael Johnson was saying I wasn't in a great place and I knew that was gonna sabot, but I believe that was my strength. So you can see how people are going to give different values or percentages for me. I think I've been very lucky in that my chimp is my success, not me. And people always blame the chimp. And it's my fault for the way I presented it. But I said my chimp wrote the books. I didn't write them.
- [56:26]
Damien Jake
Say more on that.
- [56:26]
Professor Steve Peters
There was a moment where my chimp sort of like, told me and said, how long do I sit here before you recognize what I'm telling you? And then I asked my chimp, why are you doing this? It's ridiculous. Sounds like crazy, but my chimp would come up with stuff. And I think that's really clever. I hadn't thought of it, and my chimp thought, it's generated. I didn't actually do it. And so my chimp does this a lot. And it does it when I'm talking to people. I don't actually consciously Be aware my chimp will say something. Oh, that's true. So I'm actually one step behind. So I think that's unusual, but it's the way it works. So when you say my success, my chimp success is. But I think what I've been able to do, the reason it's successful is as human beings, we all need to be in a good place and most of us are not. Or we have moments where we're not in a good place and we all know what it's like and it's gut wrenching. And therefore someone who's got a background in psychiatric health, you've got this advantage of saying, let me try and help you mentally or psychologically. So you're going to be successful if you can do that, because you're giving people what they really need. So it's not. I don't think it's about me. I think it's more the people I work with, because I would say that you're the success. I just give you the tools.
- [57:45]
Jay Comfrey
I think it's so good because this whole conversation really has been about helping people to reframe things. And you've reframed the fact that we talk about having a chimp as being a negative thing. Well, if there's no chimp, there's no chimp paradox. If there's no chimp paradox, there's no Dr. Steve Peter eaters sitting on our podcast.
- [58:00]
Professor Steve Peters
Right, Exactly.
- [58:02]
Jay Comfrey
Final question before we go to the quick fights. How do you know when it's your chimp?
- [58:06]
Professor Steve Peters
Right. So I was saying you have to ask, do I want this?
- [58:09]
Jay Comfrey
Yeah.
- [58:10]
Professor Steve Peters
And if you say, no, I don't, then, you know, it's the chimp. But it might say, like, I'm on a diet and someone offers me, I don't know, something I really want cheesecake. And I think, yeah, I want this. But actually it's fooling you because if you say, well, what would you feel like in an hour's time? I'd say, pretty bad, actually. Yeah. So you can be full. The chimp container said something that was a.
- [58:33]
Jay Comfrey
That helped you when you were writing your book, did you say?
- [58:35]
Professor Steve Peters
Yeah, but it kind of. It's moments where it doesn't help. It's not a little angel by any means. No, no, it's quite. It come deviously trying. Fool me.
- [58:45]
Jay Comfrey
Yeah.
- [58:45]
Professor Steve Peters
So I've had to work it out because like that with the cheesecake, I would say, hang on, you know, I don't want this. And so it was you that was talking and fooling me to believing it was us that wanted cheesecake.
- [58:56]
Jay Comfrey
The chimp is actually cheeky bastard, because, like, I should eat less crisps, right? But what my chimp says is, and I talk about crisps a lot, it goes, well, you've earned these crisps today.
- [59:08]
Professor Steve Peters
And you believe it. It's not the chimp's fault. You believe it.
- [59:11]
Jay Comfrey
Yeah, but it's because he tricks me. Well, I want to believe him because I bloody love crisps, Right?
- [59:15]
Professor Steve Peters
Right.
- [59:16]
Jay Comfrey
Or procrastination is a big one for me. I want to believe the chimp because actually going and watching the telly is sometimes a bit more exciting than the thing that I actually have to do.
- [59:25]
Professor Steve Peters
But again, you could always ask the question, right, in an hour's time, two hours time, what will I feel if I do this? And what will I feel if I do what I think I should do? What would make me actually feel good? And then you've got it so that you can get around it. But just, again, important people have this idea that chimps is a bad thing. And I keep saying it's the best thing you've got is your best friend. It doesn't always help, but best friends often don't, you know, but you've got to say, it's not helping. Give me something else. And the chimp will. There's nothing it does that's not trying to help. That's an important concept. It never is against you. It's trying to help, but its techniques and methods are just a bit suspect and don't often help. And the other is, you can't just go home tonight and I say this and shout, and lose your temper with your wife and go, sorry, just my chimp. You're 100% responsive. It's an accountability model. It's. It's not an excuse model. You're a hundred percent accountable, you know, so no excuses. You have to learn to manage it. If you don't, you got to apologize, say, this is unacceptable, but don't blame your chimp. It's not the chimp's fault for being a chimp, you know, you're the one who has to manage it and understand it.
- [60:37]
Jay Comfrey
Are you ready for some quick fire questions?
- [60:38]
Professor Steve Peters
I don't have an answer.
- [60:39]
Damien Jake
It's quite privileged.
- [60:40]
Jay Comfrey
Thank you. Yeah, it's been brilliant.
- [60:41]
Professor Steve Peters
No, thank you. I don't know I can do quick. I've warned you. It's like throwing a stick for a cat. It's not gonna go, you know. All right.
- [60:52]
Jay Comfrey
As we come towards the end of this conversation, what's the killer question that we should use to get people straight after this? Thinking about their own thinking.
- [61:00]
Professor Steve Peters
I think it's got to be that they have to recognize the advantage. They've got to look and say, what is my mind or emotions doing, which is not helping me or other people around me, me. And if they think, yeah, I could improve on this and it's worth it, then they'll do it.
- [61:14]
Jay Comfrey
Great.
- [61:14]
Professor Steve Peters
But if someone says there's no reason to do anything, I'm happy with where life is, whether I upset people or not or myself, then probably nothing.
- [61:22]
Jay Comfrey
So you have to want to be helped.
- [61:23]
Professor Steve Peters
You have to want to do it. You've got to see something you really want to change.
- [61:26]
Jay Comfrey
Yeah.
- [61:27]
Damien Jake
What is the most valuable habit that you have in your work?
- [61:31]
Professor Steve Peters
Reflection all the time. Probably four times a day I will stop in my tracks and reset. Get basically around the stone life and saying, get some perspective, get some reality. Keeping human mode. And so I do that maybe four times a day and that settles me down again.
- [61:48]
Jay Comfrey
What do you say to yourself?
- [61:49]
Professor Steve Peters
Then I go through truths of life like, you know, you set off in a good place. Let's remain in a good place. And is it going to help if you start losing it? It's not going to help. So I remind myself and I talk to the chimp and say, what do we want to do? And the chimp will say, be happy. I say, okay, don't overreact. So I talk all the time, but I do that probably four times a day, but it's only for a couple of minutes.
- [62:11]
Jay Comfrey
What is your definition of high performance?
- [62:15]
Professor Steve Peters
I don't think there is one. Because if you look at. I'm going to take really bad examples. Someone who's pretty unpleasant will give you a definition of success is financial at the cost of everybody else. Now, I'm not saying that I'm not against people who make money. That's up to them. But I'm saying at the cost of everybody else knowing. But they'd say that's high performance. It's not for me to judge. That's not what I would say.
- [62:40]
Jay Comfrey
What's your version?
- [62:41]
Professor Steve Peters
Whereas if you say high performance is for me personally helping other people. We said this before we started recording. You know, I thrive on this because I feel if I can help someone, I get a big kick out of being the support behind the scenes. You mentioned it the beginning. I like that role. Being in the limelight is not so comfortable and I'll do it, but I'd much prefer to be behind the scenes and get someone to succeed, because for their successes, I feel I contributed something to it and it's made them happy. So helping others, what's the first thing.
- [63:14]
Damien Jake
You'D like someone to do when they get to the end of this fascinating episode?
- [63:19]
Professor Steve Peters
Really stop for even 60 seconds and think. Has what I've heard made me think there's some work I could do do? It's not a big thing. I'm not asking people to do half an hour a night. I'm asking people to start looking at maybe five or ten minutes a day, which is not a lot, to start reflecting and get something. As I say, it's not necessarily the chimp model, but get something that they can start work on and chip away. Because the way I try and explain it is if you are aiming for the moon and you move one degree today, by the time you hit the moon, you've moved a million miles. So if you're aiming for disaster and not happy to life and you move one degree by changing one little thing, a belief, a behavior, you know, you'll be so far down the road. Four years, five years on people. And I've had this. People say different partner because they've started work, and slowly but surely the partner can't see it. Person you work with often says, I don't feel moved. But the actual partner of the person I'm working with says, definitely. So little changes.
- [64:22]
Jay Comfrey
And the final question, what would you like to say to someone who's listened to this incredible conversation, but they actually think that their chimp is so strong that they're beyond help?
- [64:33]
Professor Steve Peters
Welcome to the rest of us. I think we all feel that at times, get help. And again, there are lots of people out there. They may not use this model, but, you know, there are so many good clinical psychologists, therapists of all kinds of nurses are often trained in therapies. There's a lot of independent people. You just got to get someone who understands you and works with you and you're on the same page. So I would recommend people, and the doctors, we do it as well, is reach out and get some help. Reach out.
- [65:10]
Jay Comfrey
Damien Jake, thoughts on that episode?
- [65:13]
Damien Jake
Loved it. Loved it. It was like listening to a. An encyclopedia of the brain and somebody just picking out the best bits and giving it in a really practical way. What did you think?
- [65:23]
Jay Comfrey
Look, coming into this, I'd listen to a lot of conversations he's had before, and in all honesty, when he talks about elite athletes, it kind of left me cold because I was thinking, well, I'm sure you can get the best out of elite athletes, but they want to be helped. They've got all the resources and all the time and they're working towards a single specific goal. So I was very keen that that conversation was for the parents, it was for the partners, it was for the. It was for the kids, it was for the colleagues. And I really feel that we. We got there and the biggest revelation for me was a conversation about young kids not telling them when they're doing well and not doing well. And I'm. I kind of know, right, that every time Flo does some brilliant singing in the choir or some great dancing, or when Seb scores four goals in a football match, I praise them. And then I'm. There's a voice in my head going, hold on, you're attaching praise to pleasing other people, specific outcomes, all of this stuff. But I've never known how to not do that. Because who doesn't want to tell their kid they did well scoring a try in rugby, Right? So now it's so great. I'm just gonna say, what did you think of how that went? What did you love about it? What did you not like about it? Where do you think you could do better? Then afterwards go, do you know what? I thought you were great. That's a total change in terms of how I will parent Flo and Zeb for sure.
- [66:36]
Damien Jake
I love that. And that. Well, that builds on what I took from it about we're already resilient. We don't build up resilience, we don't armor plate it. We already. We start resilient and then what we actually do is erode it. And sometimes it's through letting little habits, little beliefs get in the way of it. And I think when we can recognize that, that, you know, I often use that line, don't. I've said it to you that we don't need to be resilient if we're in the face of kindness. We only need to be resilient when it's around unkindness. But what I've never thought about was actually the kindness starts with us being kind to ourselves. And just by using that stone alive technique, that idea of having perspective, what, the truth's alive and going back to our values. Like, I like the fact that Steve didn't talk about happiness, he spoke about peace of mind, because I think we'd all like more of that.
- [67:24]
Jay Comfrey
Yeah, I was great. And I. I came into this conversation thinking we're going to talk about how to ignore the chimp and that the chimp is bad and that we've all got this thing that we need to try and get rid of. And I love the fact that at the end of it he's like, the chimp is good. Embrace the chimp. We all have one. We all need one. Work it to your advantage. So thank you mate.
- [67:43]
Damien Jake
Thank you.
- [67:46]
Jay Comfrey
Well, what a cool way to prepare for 2026. Genuinely one of the most practical and important episodes we've ever recorded. And as you head into the new year, I would encourage you to do what Steve suggested. Just stop for 60 seconds and ask yourself, is there some work I could do? Not hours of therapy, just five or ten minutes a day, just chipping away. Remember, one degree of change today can become a million miles in the right direction over time. And if this episode resonated with you, please do share it. Please send it to someone who needs to hear this heading into the New Year. And if you hit subscribe, you'll never miss a single conversation from all of us here at High Performance. Here's to a year of understanding your mind, better, managing your chimp, and becoming the version of you that you know you can be. I look forward to catching up more in the new year and thanks for listening during 2025.
- [68:58]
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Professor Steve Peters
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