The Secret Link Between Gut Health & Depression: Prof. Tim Spector (E381)

Summary

The High Performance Podcast

Episode: The Secret Link Between Gut Health & Depression: Prof. Tim Spector (E381)
Air Date: December 1, 2025
Guest: Professor Tim Spector
Host: Jake Humphrey (with Damian Hughes)

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Professor Tim Spector, a leading expert on genetics, epidemiology, and gut health, joins Jake and Damian to uncover the transformational role the gut microbiome plays in our overall health—especially its profound and underappreciated connection to mental health issues such as depression and anxiety. Tim shares groundbreaking, science-backed insights and practical guidance on integrating fermented foods into daily life for better mental and physical wellbeing, making the link between gut health and high performance clear and actionable.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Fermented Foods Matter

• Fermentation's Miraculous Benefits
  • Fermentation transforms foods into more complex, flavorsome, and preservable products, while also boosting health properties.
  • "Fermented food...is food that's transformed by microbes into something better." (Tim Spector, 04:01)
• Examples include yogurt, cheese, kefir, wine—foods that become more nutritious and flavorful post-fermentation.

2. The Gut-Brain Axis & Mental Health

• Microbes as "Mini Pharmacies"
  • Microbes in the gut produce an array of chemicals that signal to the brain and immune system.
  • Gut communicates critical messages (e.g., stress, immunity) to the brain via the immune and nervous systems.
  • "Rather than the brain being in charge, it's probably our gut is more in charge than our brain. This is a really sort of major shift in our thinking." (Tim Spector, 07:03)
• Link to Depression and Anxiety
  • Studies show gut inflammation is closely linked to low mood and depression; treating the gut can be as effective as antidepressants for mild to moderate depression.
  • "A gut friendly diet is as good as an antidepressant tablet for people with mild to moderate depression." (Tim Spector, 08:54)

3. How Fermented Foods Act on the Body

• Mechanisms of Action
  • Live and dead microbes from fermented foods interact with the immune system—dampening inflammation, sending "relax" signals to the brain.
  • "We think that...the protein [of the microbe] is then interacting with the immune cells and so a bit like a vaccine." (Tim Spector, 14:20)
• Regularity Over Rarity
  • Consistent, small daily amounts are key—effects are cumulative and ongoing, not the result of sporadic consumption.
  • "It's small amounts regularly is how they work. They're not designed to live in your gut because they're designed to live in your kombucha or your kimchi or your milk." (Tim Spector, 10:41)

4. Dead vs. Live Microbes – Busting the Myth

• Postbiotics / "Zombie Biotics"
  • Recent research reveals dead microbes (postbiotics) are also effective, challenging the belief that only live cultures matter.
  • Dead microbes interact with the immune system similarly to how vaccines work.
  • "The fact that people have been studying this for so long, so bashing their heads against the wall, you know, and no one believing them and suddenly you...show that, yes, you can actually reduce heart disease." (Tim Spector, 58:36)

5. Societal Shifts & "The Yuck Factor"

• Why We Lost Fermentation Traditions
  • Industrialization, refrigeration, and a cultural shift toward processed "cleanliness" led to the decline of homemade fermented foods in places like the UK.
  • Many European and Asian countries maintain these traditions, handing down recipes and home ferments.

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Practical Guidance from Prof. Spector

1. Core Gut Health Principles (“The Big 6”) (26:59)

1. 30 Different Plants a Week – Diversity of plant-based foods is the foundation.
2. 3 Fermented Foods Daily – Aim for at least three types of fermented foods each day.
3. Eat the Rainbow – Focus on polyphenol-rich colorful vegetables and fruits.
4. Pivot Your Protein – More legumes, less meat for additional fiber and health benefits.
5. Quality, Not Calories – Prioritize real, whole foods over calorie-counting.
6. Gut Rest / Time-Restricted Eating – Give your gut time to rest between meals.

2. Introducing Fermented Foods at Home (31:57, 37:33)

• Start with What’s Familiar:
  • Greek/natural yogurt (full fat, nothing added), cheeses, kefir.
  • "If you're buying yogurt, you buy full fat Greek yogurt, nothing added...it's dirt cheap, easy to do." (Tim Spector, 31:57)
• Expand Gradually:
  • Milk kefir (flavored at first ok), water kefir, kombucha, sauerkraut, kimchi.
  • Combine with familiar foods (e.g., kimchi with cream cheese, kefir in smoothies).
• Sourdough & Vinegar:
  • Real sourdough and high-quality vinegars (“with the mother”) add variety.
  • Miso instead of stock cubes for umami richness and gut benefits.

3. Navigating the Supermarket – What to Buy

• "Buy the right stuff...start by getting good makes." (Tim Spector, 31:57)
• Avoid low-fat or highly processed “children’s” yogurts/cereals; they're engineered for repeat eating, not health. (35:53)
• For kombucha and kefir, research brands—look for sediment and fizz (signs of real fermentation). Home fermentation is possible and rewarding, but not necessary to start.

4. Quick Tips for Families & Kids

• Mix fermented foods into everyday meals—use as condiments, in breakfast, or as healthy drinks.
• “Shot of kefir” for kids at breakfast is an easy start. (63:26)
• Gradually introduce more variety—don’t pressure, but normalize tastes (e.g., slight sourness).

5. Evidence for Fast Impact

• Mental health benefits (elevated mood, reduced anxiety) can emerge in as little as 1–2 weeks of daily fermented food consumption.
  • "Within about a week...over 50% noticed improvements in mood, energy, hunger, bloating, constipation." (Tim Spector, 11:38)

6. What NOT to Fear

• Mold on cheese and “smelly” foods are often signs of beneficial microbes, not spoilage.
• Salt in natural fermented foods (like kimchi) is not usually a health risk.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On The Gut’s Power:
  • "Rather than the brain being in charge, it's probably our gut is more in charge. This is a really sort of major shift in our thinking." (Tim Spector, 07:03)
• On Rapid Benefits:
  • "In those 5,000, over 50% noticed improvements in mood, energy, hunger, bloating, constipation. Within about a week..." (Tim Spector, 11:38)
• On Fermented Food Variety:
  • "If you have yogurt and you have cheese, they're fermented foods. And if you give them to my lab and I can grow up microbes from them." (Tim Spector, 32:30)
• On Low-Fat Foods:
  • "The more you manipulate it, the less healthy it is, the less it resembles the original product...there's no advantage to having low fat foods." (Tim Spector, 36:03)
• On Postbiotics:
  • "They've actually given them a name called postbiotics. I call them zombie biotics...they can work our life after death." (Tim Spector, 14:20)
• On Processed Foods:
  • "As soon as anything is, is manipulated, it says low calorie or low fat...it's big warning sign that food has been manipulated to get a health label, but also to bypass your normal mechanisms in your gut and your brain and make you overeat." (Tim Spector, 37:23)
• On Old vs. New Thinking:
  • "We need to lose some of this baggage of thinking we knew the answer. And this reductionist thing about fats and salts and sugars and whatever." (Tim Spector, 60:00)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Topic | Timestamp | |---------------------------------------|-------------------| | Introduction to fermentation | 04:01 | | The gut-brain connection explained | 07:03 – 09:09 | | Fermented foods' impact on depression | 09:09 – 11:30 | | Postbiotics (dead vs live microbes) | 13:31 – 19:07 | | Cultural loss of fermentation | 19:07 – 21:19 | | Core gut health principles | 26:59 – 27:38 | | Practical supermarket buying advice | 31:57 – 36:03 | | Insights on low-fat foods | 36:03 – 37:23 | | Kefir/kombucha/kids tips | 37:33 – 44:49 | | Bread, vinegar, soy, coffee, chocolate| 45:32 – 48:56 | | Junk food’s effect on the gut | 52:00 – 54:52 | | Future of gut health science | 56:25 – 58:17 | | Busting myths (salt, cheese, etc.) | 58:36 – 60:49 |

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Final Thoughts & Takeaways

• Fermented foods aren’t just healthy—they’re foundational for gut and mental health.
• There’s a compelling, rapidly growing body of evidence linking diverse fermented food intake directly to better mood, energy, immunity, and high performance.
• The narrative around food, especially for children, needs to shift from processed "health" foods to natural, microbe-rich options.
• Prof. Spector predicts the next wave of health innovation will leverage the gut microbiome to revolutionize treatment for mental health and appetite-related issues.

"The more interesting foods we embrace, the healthier we can become. We need to lose some of this baggage of thinking we knew the answer...that's what's really exciting."
(Tim Spector, 60:00)

This episode offers accessible, actionable advice for anyone seeking to optimize their mood, resilience, and overall performance—one bite (or sip) at a time.

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Recommended action for listeners:
Try introducing three different fermented foods a day for two weeks and observe any shifts in mood, digestion, or general wellbeing—then share your experience with friends, family, or the podcast community.

Transcript

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[Tim Spector]

Rather than the brain being in charge, it's probably our gut is more in charge. This is a really sort of major shift in our thinking. We're finding more and more that these mental health disorders are related to the gut. A gut friendly diet is as good as an antidepressant. The more interesting foods we embrace, the healthier we can become. We do we need to lose some of this baggage of thinking we knew the answer. And you know, this reductionist thing about fats and salts and sugars and whatever.

[Co-host 3]

Hey, just a really quick note to say thank you so much to all of our new subscribers. And if you haven't yet subscribed, why not? It means you're the first to know about brand new episodes of High Performance. And it also means we can attract incredible new guests to the show. So please hit subscribe right now. Enjoy the show.

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[Co-host 3]

Welcome back to High Performance. Here we go.

[Co-host 2]

Round two.

[Tim Spector]

Round two. Yeah.

[Co-host 3]

Okay, Round two. Book number six.

[Tim Spector]

Yeah.

[Co-host 3]

And Ferment is your new book, and I was lucky enough to read it. And you know, what I'd actually like to share from the book is almost the very first thing that I read because I think it sums up so perfectly the conversation we're about to have. You start the book by saying, of all the ways to prepare food, fermenting is surely the most mysterious, miraculous, and misunderstood. Now, I think all of us can relate to why fermented foods are mysterious and misunderstood. Why are fermented foods the most miraculous?

[Tim Spector]

Well, because fermented food, which is what we mean by that, is it's food that's transformed by microbes into something better, into something that tastes better. It's more complex, it's got more flavors, smells, and it preserves better. So it's going to not go rotten. And it also transforms its health properties into, you know, from milk, which is rather neutral for your health, to say yogurt or cheese or kefir, which is really good for your health. And grapes, which are very boring and sugary, into really complex wine that has hundreds of different chemicals and flavors to it. So it's that transformation. That's what we're talking about here.

[Co-host 3]

So look, the podcast is called High Performance, right? We're trying to help people find their own version of High Performance. And I think with all of the research that's happened in the last few years. The link between gut health and our overall well being is absolutely clear. I think in a moment I might just ask you, for those that don't know, just to lay bare the link between gut health and our overall well being. But then I think maybe most people that listen to this will probably still get their dinner from the supermarket. So I'd love to then have a conversation about, in the modern way in which we all operate, how can we get more fermented foods in? What can we do at home? What are the practical steps that we can all take so that at the end of this conversation, people that have listened to it are inspired to go and at least give this a go. Does that sound good?

[Tim Spector]

That's why I wrote the book. So, yeah, I want to inspire people to either try it or make it or do something with it, but don't just sit there and ignore it.

[Co-host 3]

Right. I've always wondered how improving your gut health can improve your brain health and how your skin looks. Because I'm thinking that the microbiomes in your gut never leave the gut, right?

[Tim Spector]

Generally, they don't know in normal health they shouldn't do. You got to remember, the microbes are basically mini pharmacies. They're pumping out all kinds of. Making all kinds of chemicals all the time. Each different species will produce a whole different range of chemicals. And these are signaling to the cells lining the gut wall and telling them what to do and what messages to pass on. So whether it's messages to your immune system to say, I'm under attack, you know, I've got an infection, I've just had a terrible kebab, whatever it is, they can also communicate with the nerve cells. So again, our second brain is in our guts. So we always feel things in our gut, right? We have all these expressions about gut feelings and butterflies and if you remember back to the days of exams, running for the loo and this sort of stuff. So our nerves are also there. And that's how, through both the immune system and the nervous system, our microbes, through these chemicals, will tell the brain what to do and how to act. And so we now think, rather than the brain being in charge, it's probably our gut is more in charge than our brain. And this is a really sort of major shift in our thinking. And it explains why people get depressed or anxious or stressed because they're just often they're getting the wrong signals.

[Co-host 1]

Good. Just explain more on that. I'm intrigued at depression, for example, how. How that's linked.

[Tim Spector]

So depression, everyone gets depressed Short term. So if you have a vaccine, for example, you might feel a bit down for 24 hours.

[Co-host 1]

Right.

[Tim Spector]

We were told to rest after the COVID vaccine. Feel a bit shit. That's like a mini version of depression. So what's happening is the vaccine is tickling your immune system and the immune system is telling the brain there's something going on here. It's like, I'm ill, let's just hide under the duvet. 24 hours. Don't want to go out with your mates, you're not really interested in going to the pub, having a big pizza. You just, you know, chill out. And what's happening, depression is, the current idea is that your gut is full of inflammation and when there's no obvious cause for depression, which happen and it just, that inflammation just keeps going. So your brain is saying, gosh, I'm still, you know, maybe I've got some long term infection here. The way to react to that is to stay under the duvet. That's the simple version of what's happening. So we're finding more and more that these mental health disorders are related to the gut. And that goes for anxiety, goes for adhd, goes for spectrum disorders.

[Co-host 3]

You know, I think that's an amazing revelation.

[Tim Spector]

Yeah, yeah.

[Co-host 3]

Which I still don't think people have cottoned onto the link between.

[Tim Spector]

Yeah, totally. And that's why you can treat a lot of these disorders by treating the gut. So studies have shown that a gut friendly diet is as good as an antidepressant tablet for people with mild to moderate depression. Why? Lots of these fermented foods can help depression and anxiety.

[Co-host 1]

So you use that phrase before that the fermented food stimulates the gut. What is it that it's doing that would ward off depression or some of these other conditions you've just described?

[Tim Spector]

We don't know exactly. So I'm going to be clear. So what I'm saying is speculation because it's very hard in humans to work out exactly what's going on and where it's going on. The current theory is that you eat these fermented foods, they pass through the stomach acid, some of them die off. But enough, carry on. Because you start with trillions of them in foods as opposed to billions in just a probiotic capsule. They survive and then they are probably having their main effect in the small intestine, which is just before the colon. And that's where a lot of the digestion happens and there's less competition. They're not surrounded by other microbes that would Be a million to one outnumbered. So that's how your little food microbes probably get noticed. And they are probably latching on to sensors there that are then triggering the immune system in some way that's beneficial to us to then dampen down inflammation, tell the body it's cool, you know, we're healthy here, relax, just chill out. These good signals. And we've probably evolved to have these foods. Cause, you know, we have literally had them, you know, since humans first started walking around. And we're naturally drawn to these types of foods and the sourness and other things. So that's how we think it is. They're mainly acting and then they pass through and then they die off. And you have to keep eating them to have an effect. So you can't just have a wild binge once a month. They won't have that effect. It's small amounts regularly is how they work. They're not designed to live in your gut because they're designed to live in your kombucha or your kimchi or your milk. So there's only a small overlap between the microbes in your gut and in food. So they're sort of extra passengers that you're taking, like vitamin supplements or whatever that just will have this magical effect on you. That's the current scientific scale.

[Co-host 1]

And what sort of timescale does it take to start seeing that 20 to 30% reduction and the risk of depression?

[Tim Spector]

We did this big study with my company, Zoe, where we do the citizen science project. So we asked about 9,000 people if they wanted to take part in a sort of home experiment. So we said, okay, you can only take part if you don't really take fermented foods. So we got six and a half thousand people who hardly ever took fermented foods. And they agreed to do a week of just logging their normal foods and mood and then take two weeks of the what we wanted. Three a day, right? Three different ones a day. And a thousand couldn't hack it or dropped out. Only partly did it, but over 5,000 did the whole thing. And in those 5,000, over 50% noticed improvements in mood, energy, hunger, bloating, constipation. Within about a week, you know, a few had negative side effects, but they, you know, outnumbered about three to one by the people that benefited. So it has a quite rapid onset. The other study was done in just 28 people with the blood levels. And again, that was. They saw these effects after a couple of weeks. But I think the effects on the brain seem to be the Fastest ones. And that's what I notice when I start upping my fermented foods a few years ago is, yeah, my mood was much more stable than it had been. So the effects on the brain, we don't know exactly how they work, but they seem to be much more rapid than some of these other ones, like on your actual gutter or your transit time or things like this that we've traditionally thought of. That's how fermented foods work. So it's absolutely fascinating. And the other bit about how they work is. Is also when they're dead. So I don't know if you read that.

[Co-host 3]

I did, yeah. This was.

[Tim Spector]

Which is post biotics, which blew me away because I've.

[Co-host 3]

I'll be honest with you, I have kind of experimented with fermented foods only in the last two years.

[Tim Spector]

Probably.

[Co-host 3]

I was relieved when I read that in 2010, even you were ignorant about the power of fermented foods, because I think sometimes we can sort of feel we've missed a trick. But if Tim Spetz has not caught onto it, it's okay that we haven't. But I've always sort of been taught that if it's not alive, then it's not. Then it's not impactful. It needs to be alive. And even for a long time, because I take a daily probiotic tablet, and sometimes when I take that, people, they're like, oh, well, there's no way that stuff can be alive. So it's an absolute waste of your time. It has to be our live culture that you're absorbing. But your book talks about dead microbes.

[Tim Spector]

Yeah, but when I started writing the book, I believed that there was dead microbes. Completely useless. You're just wasting your money. All these, you know, companies just conning you, right? Or they were pretending it was live, but because they didn't want to say it was dead, but actually it was dead. And all this science is really, in the last three or four years is they keep doing these trials and the dummy arm where they pasteurized the probiotic, worked as well, sometimes better than the live one. And first time they did this, oh, this must be rubbish. You're just useless scientist. And they, you know, went back to the drawing board and did it again in the same result and then be repeated three or four times. And then they did it in kids, and there's now eight studies in children with diarrhea giving them dead probiotics. And they're all working. So suddenly the field has now accepted they work and they've Actually given them a name called postbiotics. I call them zombie biotics. But post is the official term. You know, they can work our life after death. They can still be having an effect. And we think again it comes back to the way the microbes and the immune system are working. We think that if you think of a microbe, it's like a cell. It's got a cell wall made of pro and on that lots of proteins are sticking out and even if it's dead, you've still got the structure of may not be wriggling around and eating and having sex, but it's still there. Lots of these dead ones are around and sounds like me. We think that the protein is then interacting with the immune cells and so a bit like a vaccine. So most. A lot of the vaccines we have like polio vaccine and things like that is dead virus. And it's just the cell wall is tickling our immune system to say hello, we're here, you know. And that has an amazing effect on the immune system. So that plus the fact that the microbes also produce these chemicals like this soup full of these good chemicals, they're also being passed into us and being used. So suddenly this whole field is exploded and that the possibilities are much greater because it's much easier to produce and add dead microbes to things. Right Than live ones because health and safety reasons and you know, it's not going to go out of control and take over your body because it's dead. And this is, you know, it's why even, even in Zoe with reformulated our we've got this prebiotic daily 30 mix and we're now in a few weeks going to add in dead kombucha to that as a postbiotic because a it's safe so we don't have to ask approval for it, which we would if it was live. And we, you know, believe it's going to have a beneficial effect in addition to all the other things. So I think we're going to see more and more of this stuff being added to foods which in the past you couldn't have marketed because it said, well that's rubbish, you know. So it's really fascinating. They probably have different mechanisms and it. You probably generally still get more benefit from the live one, but not always and so having both. But when you ingest a normal fermented food, obviously you'll be getting dead and alive ones because they generally only live a few hours. And then what happens to their bodies? You know, they have to come out and so when we go and have a poo, half of that is dead microbes. So a lot of that has just been passing through. It gives you an idea of the carnage that's going on in there. There's quite a lot of massacres, you know, and because, you know, they live fast and furious microbes, they have very rapid lives as part of this, a lot of our healthy gut microbes have been thrown in the bin as well as we've been sterilizing ourselves, hitting us with antibiotics as soon as we're born, and every few years having sterile foods in plastic containers. We have the highest rates of high processed foods in Europe that we eat compared to anyone else. And everything's in plastic and it contains no microbes in that and also nothing to feed the microbes. So as well as the lack of fermented foods, that's also gone with our basic food environment being dreadful and coming out of a factory rather than out of the ground and, you know, having dirt on it and soil and all these other things that we should have. So, yeah, we're much. Our guts are much less healthy than they were 50 years ago.

[Co-host 3]

So how did we end up in a position where as young people, you know, growing up as we did in the 70s and 80s, that's gone off. Don't eat it. That's gone fizzy. Throw it away. Put that in the fridge instantly. If it's more than a day old or a day out of date, make sure it goes in the bin. Why did we move so far away from this idea of fermented foods being something that we should be focusing on?

[Tim Spector]

Because in this country, we lost that connection with our past. So I guess up to the Second World War, everybody was fermenting, making their own yogurts and cheeses and probably fermented milks, fermented oats, things like this. And we industrialized, we got rid of a lot of our local cheese manufacturers in the Second World War in order to just. Everybody making cheddar, for example, that was part of the war effort. And because the UK has always been at the forefront of the Industrial Revolution, people moving from. Into towns and cities, I think the rural ways just got seen as that was backward and we must move forward. And we embraced a supermarket before most countries followed very closely after the U.S. and in that, we lost all our connection with these sort of home industries. And basically we've gone several generations now without knowing about it, whereas most of Europe still has. Has got connections with it, has got a granny who used to do it. Or still does it and is passing this stuff on. So. And you speak to people from other countries, you know, whether it's Indians or others from Asia, you know, even Africa, that, you know, they always had someone in the family who was fermenting something overnight.

[Co-host 3]

Yeah.

[Tim Spector]

So they would always see this pot of slightly stuff that was being transformed into something smelly, but they knew it was going to be really tasty in 24 hours, so they didn't have that fear.

[Co-host 3]

Well, my mate Chris, who's got Polish ancestry, said his mum just used to leave glasses of milk out for a couple of days and when it was kind of gloopy enough, she'd just knock it back. And that was her kind of her medicine.

[Tim Spector]

Sour milk. Yeah. I mean, that's a big tradition both in Scandinavia and in eastern Central Europe. And yeah, we just got this, this idea being unhealthy and perhaps it was our, at the time, advanced medicine telling us that medicine could sort everything out, antibiotics could sort everything out. We were at the forefront of this. And that made everything that was slightly dirty or smelly, it was consigned to the bin. And we've kept these bad habits.

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[Co-host 1]

Can I make my site softer?

[Tim Spector]

Can I make my site firmer?

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[Co-host 3]

So I was pleased you mentioned the daily 30 because for a long time we were told eat five a day, five fruit and veg a day and you thought if you got that then you're doing okay. And now it's very common. 30 ingredients a week, 30 different plants a week is what you need for your gut health. But then this idea of fermented foods is another whole layer on top of that. So I think about my kids, like we've tried really hard to mix in all sorts of herbs and spices and salt and peppers and little bits of chopped up veg to try and get up to this 30 a week. But I don't think my kids have any fermented foods apart from maybe sometimes a kefir yogurt. Is fermented foods doing things that a diet full of variety can't do?

[Tim Spector]

Correct.

[Co-host 3]

Right.

[Tim Spector]

So this, this pivotal study in which was done in Stanford of this inflammation actually compared it to a high fiber diet.

[Co-host 1]

Right.

[Tim Spector]

So we know high fiber diets what.

[Co-host 3]

You would consider a good diet, right?

[Tim Spector]

Correct. And in fact they had the fermented foods thinking the fiber would do better and the fiber had less effect on the immune system than the fiber. So they are both contributing to our health. So it's not one or the other. Yeah, it's. If you want to maximize, optimize your gut health, you go for the, you know, these two approaches this. And I still think that, you know, you know, we've got these sort of set six principles now of eating for your gut and number one is still eat a diverse 30 different plants a week. But I think in my mind, fermented food has leapt up the charts to number two to say get at least three different ferments a day for your to optimize your health.

[Co-host 3]

Would you complete the list for people to hear the full.

[Tim Spector]

Yeah. So this is really the ethos of my books and Zoe's sort of Messaging is the 30 plants, three fermented foods eat the rainbow. So you're picking foods that are high in these polyphenols. You're pivoting your protein so eating less meat, more legumes. So you get your protein, but you also get fiber quality, not calories. So that's avoiding highly processed, high risk processed foods and going for real whole foods instead. So you're not getting those chemicals. Giving your gut a rest is the other one. So time restricted eating.

[Co-host 1]

Okay.

[Tim Spector]

Is the other sort of way of doing this. And the other one is, you know, if you can personalize your choices so you know whether you should be cutting back on the carbs or the fats in order to reduce peaks of inflammation. So I think they're the key things that we need to be doing. And if you do that, really you're optimizing your health. It's pretty good general advice. So wherever you live or whatever your situation is.

[Co-host 1]

Do you think fermented foods have got a PR problem though? Do you think people Fear them in.

[Tim Spector]

Some ways in this country, yes. In most of the countries in Europe, No.

[Co-host 3]

Right.

[Tim Spector]

So it's very much a regional. There's a yuck factor to it. There's a. Oh, it's a bit smelly. People are not used to smells. Also, we're bringing kids up just to, like, sugar rather than that sour taste that our ancestors used to look for, because they knew it was actually good for you to have that slight sourness or that slight sourness in milk, you know, and so that's why we're putting artificial sweeteners into yogurts to make kids eat them and all this sort of stuff. Yeah. As we were talking about the beginning, scraping, throwing everything out. My mum never threw anything out. She was brought up in the war. You know, you just scrape the mold off and you eat it. There's nothing wrong with that. And, you know, I've generally kept that. Not quite as ruthless as she on some of the foods. But, yeah, the idea that you mold is there, it's a sign of. Actually the food is real. We did some tests in the book on all these different foods and it's quite reassuring to see that some processed foods have actually got microbes in it. So, yes, the average cheese, if it's properly made, will have five or six different microbes in it. But you take something like Philadelphia cream cheese, right, you'd say, well, that's made in a factory, but three species really growing in it. And it does grow mold on it. If you leave it in the fridge, that's good. But take a craft slice. I've got one in my kitchen that I opened five years ago and it's still there, shining and, you know, gleaming in its glory. It's got a bit curled at the end.

[Co-host 3]

There was that story, wasn't there, about a teacher in a school who put a McDonald's burger in a cupboard? Do you remember that story? Have you seen this? Yeah, it was like, literally. I don't remember exactly, but it's something like 30 years, wasn't it? And he. And there's no mold. And he's like, how is this. What is in this? Because this is going in your body, so you've got to be very sure that you don't mind.

[Tim Spector]

But yet we've been brought up to think that, well, having no mold is better than having mold. But actually it's the other way around. Mold is a sign that actually it's got living things in it and these could be good for us. So I think it's just re Educating people. But that was my motivation for writing this book and to try and give people tips about how they can introduce it easily and it, or they've for their families without that yuck factor, you know. And it, and it, yeah, it's not easy. The first time I had kimchi, yeah it was, I felt it was horrible, you know, you know, I was in, I was in Seoul for a conference and went down for breakfast and all they had was, you know, kimchi.

[Co-host 3]

And that's quite a wake up. That's a good alarm call for your gut as much as for your brain.

[Tim Spector]

And I'll be honest, you know, this, this is like 20 years ago, but I, it put me off for a while, you know, but if someone had said, well, okay, kimchi is really good, but why don't you just mix it with a bit of cream cheese or you can just have it in a dilute form, put that on a bit of toast, you'll love it, you know. And you know, lots of people, I'm trying to improve their gut health, you know, on other podcasters and yeah, it was, I was talking to Davina McCall and she hated all fermented foods. Now by giving her these tips, you know, I've managed to convert her and she's a.

[Co-host 3]

Well, can you give us then?

[Co-host 1]

So if anyone listening to this, then that maybe has a family that they're thinking, how do I like raise the bar for us all? Can you share some of the top tips that you've discovered that does work so well?

[Tim Spector]

First is buy the right stuff. You know, so before you start making your own, you know, try, try to see what it should taste like. So get some good makes. If you're buying yogurt, you buy full fat Greek yogurt, nothing added and you should be able to have that. And if, if it's, you know, kids don't like it, well, you can add a bit of fruit to it, but at least you know what you're adding, right? It's not, not added in some factory, you've got no clue. It's dirt cheap, easy to do.

[Co-host 3]

So just normal bog standard Greek yogurt, regular natural yogurt is a fermented food.

[Tim Spector]

Correct.

[Co-host 3]

Right. It doesn't have to be kefir.

[Tim Spector]

Does not have to be kefir. No. So this is the misconception. You know, so often if you tell people you're already eating fermented foods regularly, because if you have yogurt and you have cheese, they're fermented foods. And if you give them to my lab and I can grow up microbes from them. It's not a problem. People just don't think, you know, they have a Stilton. They don't think that's actually a fermented food. They don't realize that the blue streak in it is actually mold. Okay. They inject mold into it to give it extra taste.

[Co-host 3]

Did you know that?

[Guest or Listener]

I didn't know.

[Tim Spector]

Yeah, that's mold.

[Co-host 1]

Yeah.

[Guest or Listener]

Wow.

[Tim Spector]

So, you know, we all worried about mold, but if we, if we thought about the food we're eating, boy say, well, the moldier it is, the nicer it is.

[Co-host 3]

Right? Just a furry white crust on a brie. Is that mold as well?

[Tim Spector]

Yes.

[Co-host 3]

Is it? So just a mold.

[Co-host 1]

Did you know? Come on.

[Tim Spector]

So we're constantly eating what we would consider moldy things. But it's controlled microbes. Only a certain species are growing. It's not random. If you leave a bit of meat out on the counter for three weeks or something, it's going to grow all kinds of bugs in it in an uncontrolled way. That's rotten food. It's not fermenting. Fermenting is when you control the conditions so that only certain microbes will grow in it. And so that's why cheese has certain amount of salt in it. The only microbes that like salty conditions or very acidic conditions will live. All the others will die off. All the bad guys die off. That's the basic concept here is certain amounts of sugar, certain amounts of salt changes the environment, particularly the acidity, so that you've got a very small range that then makes sure that only their friends carry on living and they kill off, you know, the nasty bugs that would give you food poisoning and everything else. So it's it that's really crucial. It's not random. And it's like when you're making it yourself, you're like a little farmer, you're like a microbial farmer doing this stuff. But yogurt going back to you, Everyone has yogurt, even the crappy stuff, the children's yogurt, that should be, you know, be a mace of health warnings in there. You can still probably grow some microbes.

[Co-host 3]

But still avoid it if you can.

[Tim Spector]

No, 100% avoid it. Just kids should have normal yogurt, not stuff with all this artificial sweeteners and flavorings. And because that's, I think, and you.

[Co-host 3]

Have spoken about this many times, that's the trick that catches a lot of well intentioned parents out is to go, well, I'm getting My kids, yogurts. Yeah, but the ones with the bright color faces or the cartoon characters on, I mean, you look at some of those and sugar's the second ingredient after milk often, isn't it?

[Tim Spector]

Well, it's the same as breakfast cereals. A lot of, you know, they've got healthy labels on them, all the vitamins that they've added in and stuff like this, and it's all complete nonsense and it should be banned as it is in many countries now. They're banning the cartoons, they're banning this fake health promotion. So children's yogurts, children's cereals, yeah, they're out. Bog standard yogurt. Works every time. It doesn't have to be Greek, you know, if you can't find it just full fat. So it's not manipulated. So they haven't added stuff back in or starch and other things.

[Co-host 3]

So not a low fat yogurt?

[Tim Spector]

No. I mean, unless you particularly like it. But the more you manipulate it, the less healthy it is, the less it resembles the original product.

[Co-host 3]

Right.

[Tim Spector]

Because you're often adding in starches from other, other plants into there to give it the same feel in your mouth as, as if it had fat. And there's no advantage to having low fat foods. So this is now standard advice and nutrition that full fat is perfectly fine and low fats are generally unhealthy.

[Co-host 3]

So for people that are trying to lose weight so they buy low fat food, what would you say to them?

[Tim Spector]

Well, they're making a very big mistake.

[Co-host 3]

Why?

[Tim Spector]

Because they're more likely to eat more and get fatter.

[Co-host 3]

That's what the science says. Why would that happen?

[Tim Spector]

Because fat actually fills you up more and if you replace the fat with starchy carbs, which is what they do, that makes you more likely to eat, eat more of them and therefore you don't, you don't get full up and you still have the hunk, you're still feeling hungry. That's why the food companies love it, because that's what they want you to do, is to eat more of it. So as soon as anything is, is manipulated, it says low calorie or low fat or anything else. It's big warning sign that that food has been manipulated to get a health label on the front, but also to bypass your normal mechanisms in your gut and your brain and make you overeat and hence, you know, put on weight.

[Co-host 1]

So we're in the supermarket now, we're pushing our trolley, we've put the full fat yoghurt in, we've put some cheese in. We avoided the low fat foods. Where else should we be shopping?

[Tim Spector]

Go the next aisle and you'll get some milk kefir. Okay. And this might be new to some people, it's fermented milk. And the difference is you're just using starter cultures, which are these grains which have been handed down for millennia, which are communities of about 30 or 40 different microbes that will then take over the milk and transform it into this more acidic, sour, but very healthy drink. You know, when you're starting out, by all means get a flavored one to start, but very quickly try and wean yourself off that. Or what I tell people is to mix it 50, 50 with the yogurt because it's essentially like super yogurt. And some of the ones in the stores are basically yogurt. They've just added some extra microbes in so that it tastes very like a dilute yogurt. So in a way, that's your gateway drug into this whole thing. Do you ever have kefir?

[Guest or Listener]

No, no.

[Co-host 3]

It's actually nicer than yogurt once you start taking it regularly.

[Tim Spector]

But the first few times you think, oh, this is a bit sour. If you're used to, you know, having a sweet yogurt with fruit.

[Co-host 3]

You know when yogurt goes off and you try it to see whether.

[Co-host 1]

Yeah, yeah.

[Co-host 3]

It's a bit like that, isn't it? That's like fears and tang. Yeah.

[Tim Spector]

You know, in the shops there's a whole range of not very good cafes to, if you're lucky, some ones that will fizz and have real microbes or.

[Co-host 3]

A brand that you really recommend.

[Tim Spector]

Well, it depends on your taste. I mean.

[Co-host 3]

Yeah, but for the biggest health gain or the most benefit, it'd be something.

[Tim Spector]

That this one called Key Kefir is. Is a good one. Made from cow's milk.

[Co-host 3]

How's that spelled? Like K E Y or.

[Tim Spector]

Yeah, I think it is K Y F I R. I think so. And there's another one called Chuckling Goat, which is for hardcore users. It's made of goat's milk and it smells quite goatee, but it. Both of those will actually fizz when you open them because they've got. As well as the bacteria, they've got yeast, which make CO2 gas and so that, you know, it's real. Whereas the other ones are made by the big dairies for mass production. They're still good. They've still got four times more microbes than yogurt. Okay, so they're all good. But there'll be a much milder taste. So you can sort of get the one you really want to go for before you go to the high end. But you're getting more microbes as you. As it gets more traditional. But they will fizz and smell and, you know, do other things.

[Guest or Listener]

Right.

[Tim Spector]

So this is a journey you want to go on. So the first, get a simple one, mix it with yogurt and then increase the mix. But even I still have my yogurt in the morning with my kefir.

[Co-host 1]

Right.

[Tim Spector]

I haven't really sort of moved on to just skipping the yogurt. I still quite like the consistency of it, you know, it's a very good vehicle for fruit and nuts and seeds and things in the morning, so I don't mind it. So that's. That's one tip of how to get the milk cafe going. Then I think you've got your other drinks you can have. So you've got something called water kefir, which most people have never heard of. The other name is tibicos. There's not many of these, but I think we're going to see more of it because in. In my studies, it scored one of the highest in terms of number of different species. And it's like grains as well, that you add to just sugar, sugary water, and it will grow. And there's a brand out there called Agua de Madre, which is a good one, that tastes just like soda. It's because it tastes of not much. And then you add fruit afterwards and sort of fruit cordials and things. And it is really easy to drink. So it's easier than kombucha, which is. There's a fermented tea.

[Co-host 3]

We make our own kombucha at home, you know. Yeah, well, you have like a. Like a starter.

[Tim Spector]

Yeah, it's a big block starter.

[Co-host 3]

And it looks like. It looks like a jellyfish almost, doesn't it?

[Tim Spector]

It's an alien jellyfish. Yeah. And they are super cool and. And I think everyone should have one in their. In their kitchen, you know, for the kids to play with as well, because it's. It's, you know, I'm very attached to mine because it is actually quite hard to kill, you know.

[Co-host 3]

How old is yours? But it's been around a while.

[Tim Spector]

Yeah. It must be, I think, 12 years old.

[Co-host 3]

What's it called again?

[Tim Spector]

The Scoby.

[Co-host 3]

The Scoby. So. And sometimes when you. So you make it in a big jar. We used to house with like green tea and sugar and you Leave it for a couple of weeks in a. In our cupboard. And then you pour it into like some glass bottles. Sometimes bits of the scoby come off, don't they? And you. You pour it into a glass and it looks like, you know, when you've got a cold and you get really, like snot down the back of your throat, it's like that floating. I'm not really doing much service to fermented foods. You're not, but you drink it and you feel it go down your throat. Homemade kombucha, which is so easy, isn't it, to do. It's like one of those things that feels like some Eastern mystic potion lotion thing. We don't even think about it. And you get regular kombucha for pennies, basically.

[Tim Spector]

And. And it's got like 50 different microbe species.

[Co-host 3]

You leave it for too long. Drinking vinegar. Yes.

[Tim Spector]

Which is a big mistake I made when I first started making.

[Co-host 3]

We do it all the time.

[Tim Spector]

My family said, oh, it's horrible, you know, and a few friends used to pretend to like it.

[Co-host 3]

But we get weeks where only I will drink the kombucha because it's gone too far.

[Tim Spector]

I'm really. I'm much better at it now. And so I don't over cook it, as they say, and I add fruits and do a second fermentation. Anyway, we digress because kombucha, you can get that in all the supermarkets now. And, you know, and they all come in all flavors, but again, if you pick one that's real, it will have a. They all have a fizz, but some of them are just adding car, you know, carbonated water to it. It's not real, but the real ones will have a little sediment in it. A mini scoby. That's how I got my first one right. I basically grew it out of a little bottle and just gave it sugar and a tea, this black tea, and it grew into this giant, enormous alien. And it, you know, I just leave it in the fridge and then it's quite happy. Just goes to sleep in the fridge, hibernates. And you bring it out. Here's some more tea for you. And it will change this sugary tea into this incredibly complex, you know, drink that is half beer, half wine, half vinegar and 100% good. And now they're selling it, you know, in the best restaurants. They now have a kombucha menu and a kombucha sommelier. Everyone should try sauerkraut and kimchi. And when you start mixing them with cheese. Cream cheese makes them much easier to have. Putting them in at the end of soups or in stews.

[Co-host 3]

And they're quite a complicated thing to eat at home. Like buying those from the store is okay?

[Tim Spector]

Yes, absolutely fine. But, you know, just you can put them into salads, you can put them into, you know, onto nearly any dish.

[Co-host 1]

Right.

[Tim Spector]

Just like you can pour kefir instead of cream onto the end of a curry or something. You know, all these things, you know, you can use. And that's what we should be doing, finding way more and more ways to get the year three a day in.

[Co-host 3]

So the three K's there, kefir, kombucha and kimchi. So to stop people from feeling overwhelmed, and I don't think they would be from listening to this conversation. It feels really quite practical and easy to adopt. But I did want to point out some stuff that a lot of people eat.

[Tim Spector]

Bread.

[Co-host 3]

Right. So is switching to sourdough something that does get our gut microbiome firing, or is that a myth that I've read somewhere? We all pretty much cook with vinegar. We might chuck it on our chips sometimes. Is there a certain type of vinegar where we're still getting the flavor, but we could be adding to our gut microbiomes? The same with soy sauce. And also in your book, you talk about tea and coffee as well. So I would just love to just cover off those things, which I think are pretty common things that we're all eating and whether there's a way of just slightly lifting up those. Those regular ingredients into our diets.

[Tim Spector]

Yeah. So vinegar definitely, you know, chemical vinegars, you know, you want higher quality ones. So if you can get an apple cider vinegar or a real wine vinegar that's got a mother in it, they're always going to be higher quality and, and better for you than just, just the, the acid. How much better? We don't know health wise, but it just seems intuitively real. And there's much more flavor and taste in. In these. In those ones. Soy sauce is definitely healthy. That is fermented soybeans.

[Co-host 1]

Yeah.

[Tim Spector]

And most in this country is pasteurized. In Japan, some it would be raw, but all soy products are good. That also means I cook with miso paste rather than stock cubes. And so I think that's a real tip because stock cubes are basically highly processed, very chemical. And also the taste of miso is. Is just amazing. And I make my own, but I don't expect people to do that on day one. Sourdough. Yeah, A Lot of hype on sourdough, a lot of fake sourdough. So that's a bit of a problem. Supermarkets will just sprinkle a little bit of sourdough flour or smell to give it a smell. But it's still made not the right way. So big red flag about being conned by, you know, paying extra quid and you get a sourdough loaf. It's not real sourdough, it's still made the chemical way rather than fermented way. So you've got to pay more for real sourdough. If it's still very white, it's still going to have so much sugar and it's not going to be good for you. What else? And tea and coffee, they're dead. Most black tea is only lightly fermented. It's green tea. That's actually health has health benefits. And coffee is a fermented health product as well. It doesn't matter if you get decaf or not, you're still getting these. If you get good quality coffee, you're still getting the benefits of it. So I think that's an important way to get fiber and polyphenols in your diet from a fermented product. Don't forget chocolate. It's another fermented food. And certainly if you go up the quality route, you're going for these bean to bar, single estate type ones you're paying more for. You know, you might have to pay three or four quid a bar but you know, you're getting the. No additives, nothing. You're just getting cocoa and sugar and you go for over 70%. That that's a really healthy snack as well. So lots of fermented foods we don't think about. Marmite's another one, you know, Love it or hate it?

[Co-host 3]

Love it. What are you?

[Co-host 1]

Hate it.

[Tim Spector]

Oh, I hate it too. But I talk about it because I think people are interested in it.

[Co-host 3]

Both real fermented. Probably not.

[Tim Spector]

No, I don't. It used to be a lot of these ones used to be. It's like tomato ketchup.

[Co-host 3]

Well, I read somewhere that it's not even beef anymore. Bovril. Vegetarians can eat it because it's now a beef flavor.

[Tim Spector]

Right. Like beef crisps.

[Co-host 3]

What are you doing to us guys?

[Guest or Listener]

And you said about tomato ketchup.

[Tim Spector]

Tomato ketchup, yeah. So modern tomato ketchup is. Is basically 50 or 30 sugar. I think it is. It's quite horrible. And plus, you know, it's of no health benefit. It's terrible. But originally it came from China and Malaysia and it was called Kacchuk and it was made from fermented fish sauce. And then they slowly added tomatoes and mushrooms and things to it. And I've actually got a recipe for old fashioned tomato ketchup in the book and it's fantastic. You can make your own fermented tomato and it's actually really healthy and has virtually no sugar in it. So, you know, some of the old ways are actually much better and it's quite fun to think of. Mr. Hines had to recreate, you know, some of the. And they, they hide a lot, disguise a lot of the flavors by adding sugar. So once you get back to it, you can really taste all the interesting flavors and plants and things in there by all these mushrooms and tomatoes and things that we've sort of forgotten. So lots of good stuff. Even beer, you know, we found one.

[Co-host 3]

We finally found a fermented food. Damien, here you go.

[Co-host 1]

I'm familiar with this.

[Tim Spector]

So Belgian beers and perhaps Guinness do have a bit of a sediment right in the bottles and that yeast is dead. But under these, our new way of thinking could have sub benefits, you see.

[Co-host 3]

So, and has there been any research into. So this is all about feeding the gut microbiome, improving the health of the gut, let's say on the way home tonight I'm working late. I'll be on the 10 o' clock train. I go for a fast food like a burger and fries and a Coke, right from a takeaway. What does the evidence tell us that does to my gut? And if it damages it, is there an amount of time it takes to kind of repair the damage that I've just done?

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[Co-host 1]

Can I make my sight softer?

[Tim Spector]

Can I make my sight firmer?

[Sleep Number Advertiser]

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[Tim Spector]

It all depends on what the state of your gut is at the time. So if you've got a healthy gut, you know you're obeying the principles of gut health, eating and you know, on the way home you just have a wobbly moment and you go for whether it, you know, your burger or whatever, a junk food meal, it probably won't do any harm. As a one off, you'll be very resilient. Your microbes will, you know, brush it off and just say, well, you know, it's, we had a bad day there, let's get over it. If you're doing that most days, then it will have a very negative effect on your, your gut and you will start to lose all your good microbes pretty quickly within, within a week or two. And that's what the state of many, many of the people living in this country is. They don't have any real food. It's, it's all this pap. So you're sort of starving your microbes to death. And those that are alive are being hit with chemicals. The occasional one, if you've got good habits is fine. We shouldn't demonize having the odd, you know, whether it's a, a pizza, a burger kebab or whatever it is, you know, if it's part of your social life, don't get upset about it. But if you're doing that day in, day out, very rapidly you will lose your good gut microbes, the bad ones take over. They'll be pumping out chemicals, giving you inflammation. That inflammation message goes to your brain, starts affecting your mental health, starts affecting your performance. And that can happen pretty rapidly. So quality of what you're eating is absolutely crucial because you just got to start thinking, how do I eat for my gut microbes? I've got to keep them happy, they're keeping my immune system happy. What do I need to do? And I think this is a total new mindset for nutrition where we're all obsessed about vitamin this and vitamin that and a bit of magnesium, bit of potassium. They don't care. They want a big, they can make anything as long as they're given a diverse menu. You know, that's got all the different chemicals because each plant has got 600, 800 different chemicals in it, you know, and different amounts of everything. But if you've, if you've got those 30 different plants, you can create anything. Yeah, you're not going to go deficient. So that's what we should be thinking of. And it's a new way of thinking about food and nutrition. But I think it catches on because it's inclusive. It's putting more on your plate, not less. It's not saying you can't eat this, you can't eat that. I think as long as you maintain this level of keeping your Microbial garden happy you can go away for a few days and have a binge and it won't really affect it too much.

[Co-host 3]

And in the United States, is this conversation happening?

[Tim Spector]

They're a few years behind us I would say. So when I talk about gut health there they just about probiotic shots and they haven't really cottoned on that food has a big effect. So Europe is definitely ahead of the, the US in terms of this debate. And you know, they want quick fixes and pills and don't quite realize that the secret is actually through, you know, real food. You know, they'll get there but I think, you know, we need to show them the way. And you know, unfortunately our habits in this are still nearly as bad as theirs. And so we are the worst in Europe, but also we are the fastest in Europe to change food habits. So all the marketing people know this and so we can dramatically turn things around that other countries can't. If people stop buying things in a supermarket next week it's out and they're stocking with something that people do want. That's why our supermarkets are now full of all these fermented foods that weren't there five years ago. And you know, so edu people educating themselves, listening to these sort of podcasts, you know, they go out and they can, they can change the food environment. And so this is what I want to do is this, it's a revolution from the ground up of, of, you know, demanding better food and things that are healthy. And it will happen.

[Co-host 1]

So what's fascinating to me is that a lot of this research, like you say, and it, it's only in the last five years we've discovered the benefits of this. You're on the cusp of the next wave. Like what do you think the next discovery will be in the next five years?

[Tim Spector]

If I had a magic wand to say what I would discover, I think it's going to be we're going to unlock some of these mechanisms about how the microbes are interacting with the immune system and maybe we'll be able to develop some, you know, but who knows, artificial foods that could be targeted just for mental health that will exactly simulate, you know, simulate ozempic, like drugs, you know, that will know how to switch because gut microbes make GLP1, you know, the sort of anti hunger chemical. We'll learn how to switch them on in significant ways.

[Co-host 3]

Natural ozempic, you think?

[Tim Spector]

Yes, things like this that you know. So I think mental health and, and, and this whole appetite is where a lot and, and our interaction with the immune system about how we can use some of these foods and fighting cancer and things like this. I think this is where a lot of the action's going to be. But it's, it's only when we get these big data sets. And that's why, you know, I'm so lucky to be working with Zoe that's now got 300, 000 gut samples with all the nutrition and health data, so we can make these discoveries and start learning more. And once we've got a million, you know, we can do amazing things. So I think it's a super exciting time to be talking about gut health because it, you know, I'm so changing my opinion on things every year and that's that for a scientist, that's just so exciting. You really know you're in the, in the fast lane.

[Co-host 1]

I mean, that's such a lovely line that when we interviewed Professor Brian Cox, he spoke about we should all learn to think like a scientist and embrace the ability to change our mind or accept we're wrong. What's been the biggest surprise then in the research that you've done for this book?

[Tim Spector]

Well, the zombie microbes was probably the big shock when I. Cause I said, oh, this is just rubbish, you know, And I just kept finding another paper that found the same thing, another paper that found the same thing and said, well, this isn't rubbish. The fact that people have been studying this for so long, so bashing their heads against the wall, you know, and no one believing them and suddenly you, you can mask these small studies together in a meta analysis and you show that, yes, you can actually reduce heart disease. And, and a lot of these things that people said were, you know, you, you can't have kimchi or sauerkraut because they're full of salt, bad for your blood pressure. And they've done this massive study in South Korea and show that in 20,000 people, those that ate kimchi had lower blood pressure than people had. So I love things that really sort of crush these myths that we should be really worried about salt. We don't have to worry about salt if we're eating the right foods. You know, it's like complete nonsense. They're natural foods and they're healthy for us. So these things just fill me full of optimism really, that, you know, the more interesting foods we embrace, the healthier we can become. We do we need to lose some of this baggage of thinking we knew the answer. And, you know, this reductionist thing about fats and Salts and sugars and whatever. That's what's really exciting. But I think the biggest thing is mental health is the links between fermented foods, gut microbes and mental health, to me is. Is the biggest thing, because that's the biggest need.

[Co-host 3]

Yeah.

[Tim Spector]

At the moment we're going through this massive mental health pandemic here and nobody's talking about how you can treat that with. Through your gut. And hopefully someone listening will try fermented foods. And, you know, I've had many people come up to me and said how it's really helped their anxiety or depression or whatever. You're not saying it's the only answer, but people just aren't even thinking about it, about thinking about a diet. They're just going straight to tablets and talking therapists. So it should be another real part of this whole discussion about why we're so sick.

[Co-host 3]

Thank you so much for your time. Really interesting conversation. I love the fact you're optimistic about the future. And it feels like so many other elements of human existence is like we're so desperate for data. And what we've realized is the data is telling us that 2,000 years ago when they had no data, they were doing it better than we are today. And we need to be more like they were thousands of years ago. It's very interesting, isn't it, that they didn't know what they were doing, but they were doing the right thing all that time ago.

[Tim Spector]

Yeah. We need to learn from our mistakes and learn from the past. That's right.

[Co-host 3]

Thank you, Tim.

[Tim Spector]

Been a pleasure.

[Co-host 3]

Damien. Jay. I've been on this kind of fermented food train for a long time. I will admit I wasn't as aware as Tim has now made me that basically what he's saying is fermented foods can help with depression, with anxiety, with mental health challenges. And I think that's the big takeaway for me is I've got friends who. And I'm one of them, actually. My kids don't really take any fermented foods. And like, if you have got kids that maybe they're struggling with attention, they're struggling with behavior, discipline is a problem. From what Tim is saying, instead of just medicating them, even with a good telling off. Right. You try medicating them with some gut, healthy, fermented foods and just see the difference it makes in the lives of your kids.

[Guest or Listener]

That's a really good advice. I didn't think of it in that way. We're familiar with exercise and the benefit that does and diet but the stuff he was talking about there, about making this a third pillar of sort for your mental health as much as anything else, was. Was a game changer for me. I think there's a big education process about buying yogurts, and you buy low fat yogurt and then he's like, no, don't touch that. Stuff like that I wasn't aware of.

[Co-host 3]

Or like, salt is bad for you. Actually, people that ate kimchi, which is high in salt, had lower blood pressure. I mean, actually, when we stopped recording, I asked him about butter and he's like, you know, oh, no. I spoke to him about cheese and he said, for years, doctors don't eat cheese because it gives you heart attacks. He's like, no, cheese is good for you. Good for your overall health. I think you're right. There's a lot of myths that need busting. I think the other thing that I need to be smarter on is I think if I'm in a shop, like a corner shop somewhere, and I'm gonna get a drink and I see a kombucha, I'll just buy a kombucha in a can. Or I will buy like a kefir because it's in the supermarket. And he's like, be really careful about the ones you actually buy. So I think the other message for me is do a bit of research about this stuff if you've got the time, and make sure that if you are gonna spend a bit more money on something, some fermented food, get the proper stuff.

[Guest or Listener]

But as somebody that's further along this journey than someone like myself, what's the one thing that you're gonna take from Tim's advice?

[Co-host 3]

That I just want to get into my kids a bit. So actually what I'm thinking is a shot of kefir yogurt at the end of breakfast or before they walk out the door for school, Anyone can just line up four glasses, pour a little bit of kefir, and go, come on, everyone, quick shot. Have a good day. Enjoy school. Trot of kefir, off you go. Little things like that I think are important. Getting them, getting that stuff into the kids. Because there will be kids whose guts are just stripped of any goodness and they never get this stuff. You know, we used to talk about five fruit and veg a day, didn't we? Well, if you eat the same five fruit and veg every single day, that's five varieties over the course of a week, it now should be 30. So the old ways of thinking are dead and we should all be now looking at our diet in a new way and going, is this food alive? Is it like, does it smell? Does it fizz? Is it salty? Is it sour? Like it's got to, you know, bland, flavorless, colorless food is just basically crap.

[Guest or Listener]

The other thing that I'd add to that then is that just how quick he said the benefits start showing up. You know, we were talking before we recorded with Tim, weren't we? About A lot of this stuff is often hidden. You know, like you can talk about exercise and you will see the benefits of it. This is stuff that traditionally you eat it and you don't quite know what it's doing to your gut. And the evidence that you can turn around your mental health, your depression, your anxiety in up to two weeks is worth any of us giving it a go.

[Co-host 3]

Thank you, mate.

[Co-host 1]

Pleasure.

[Guest or Listener]

Thanks, mate.

[Co-host 1]

Thank you, Tim for sharing your incredible bountiful knowledge with us. His new book for men is out now.

[Guest or Listener]

If this episode has resonated with you.

[Co-host 1]

Please consider sharing it with someone who you feel needs to hear it. And if you'd like more incredible conversations.

[Guest or Listener]

Like this, please go to the app.

[Co-host 1]

Store and get early access to episodes from the High Performance app. But above all, thank you for being with us. We look forward to seeing you again next time.

[Sleep Number Advertiser]

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[Co-host 1]

Can I make my sight softer?

[Tim Spector]

Can I make my site firmer?

[Sleep Number Advertiser]

Can we sleep cooler? Sleep number does that cools up to eight times faster and lets you choose your ideal comfort on either side your Sleep number setting. Enjoy personalized comfort for better sleep night after night. It's the final days of our Black Friday sale. Recharge this season with a bundle of cozy soothing comfort. Now only $17.99 for our C2 mattress and base plus free premium delivery. Price is higher in Alaska and Hawaii. Check it out at a Sleep number store or sleepnumber.com today we live in.

[Equip Health Advertiser]

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