Things Men Don't Say Out Loud (E408)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The High Performance Podcast – "Things Men Don't Say Out Loud" (E408) Release Date: May 8, 2026

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Overview

In this candid and heartfelt discussion, hosts Jake Humphrey and Damian Hughes are joined by guests Spencer Matthews and Matt Willis to address the realities and challenges of men’s mental health. The conversation, part of the "Say It Louder" initiative in partnership with BetterHelp, aims to normalize open dialogue around topics men often keep private: vulnerability, therapy, trauma, shifting identities, and the burden of emotional hiding. Through personal stories and honest reflection, the episode illuminates why men struggle to express their feelings and how change is possible—both at home and within society.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Therapy: Stigma, Maintenance, and Openness

• Men in Therapy: All participants share their experiences with therapy, underlining that it shouldn’t be a last resort, but part of ongoing self-care.

  • Jake: “I went [to therapy]...with nothing, really. Everything’s going pretty well, but I feel a little bit kind of flat. I should feel better about my life.” [02:09]
  • Matt Willis: Equates mental therapy to a “workout for the mind,” comparing it to physical health practices [03:10].
  • Spencer: Expresses anxiety over potential follow-up questions after revealing he’s in therapy. “If you say, ‘Oh, yeah, I’m in therapy at the moment,’ what’s the follow-up gonna be? ‘Oh, why?’...That’s what I don’t really want.” [04:01]

• Therapy as Self-Improvement: Guests shift the therapy narrative from 'fixing brokenness' to developing better performance in life. “I like to see therapy as, ‘How can I be better than I currently am?’...Instead of ‘I’m broken, how do I fix myself?’” —Matt Willis [06:54]

2. Cultural Conditioning and Emotional Reticence

• Learning to Hide Pain: Growing up, the ethos for many men was ‘keep calm and carry on’—revealing struggle felt like weakness.

  • “We kind of got conditioned in a way, from early on, to kind of keep it in...It was a sign of weakness to show that I was struggling.” —Jake [04:42]
  • Matt Willis reflects on shame around therapy linked to behaviors like alcohol abuse, which amplifies reluctance to share [05:14].

• Difficulty Opening Up: There’s an ingrained fear about burdening loved ones with problems or appearing weak.

  • “I have this voice in my head going, ‘But it’s not her problem.’” —Spencer on not sharing worries with his wife [27:07]

3. Changing Roles and Masculinity

• Evolving Male Identity: The shift from traditional male roles (breadwinner, silent strength) to ambiguous expectations creates confusion.

  • “The job description has changed, but no one’s given you the new script.” —Jake [20:24]
  • “I rally against this phrase ‘toxic masculinity’...Masculinity is strength, but that’s not a bad thing. Masculinity is also vulnerability.” —Spencer [21:06]

• Women’s Empowerment & Household Dynamics: As partners become more independent, the guests grapple with feelings of redundancy or loss of place.

  • “My wife works really hard. So all of a sudden the necessity for me to go out and do that is only personal to me.” —Matt Willis [22:34]

4. Hiding Struggles: Practice & Consequences

• Performance of Wellbeing: Guests admit to being experts at hiding their troubles, sometimes to their own detriment.

  • “I’ve got a PhD in [hiding struggles]...I never was truthful or honest about anything...It didn’t serve me at all.” —Jake [24:06]
  • Matt discusses hiding his drinking: “There’d be more drinking than there actually was...And then you’ve got away with it.” [25:49]

• Cost of Pushing Through: Overcommitment leads to burnout and missed family moments.

  • “I’m working all day long...I’m feeling the pinch a little bit right now. I feel like I’m missing a lot of things.” —Matt Willis [34:28]
  • Shane Parish’s advice: “Urgent stuff will always come into your life...It’s important that the urgent stuff doesn’t always get rid of the important stuff.” [35:06]

5. Barriers to Opening Up

• Stigma, Embarrassment, and Risk: Fear of judgment, appearing weak, or burdening others prevents men from sharing.
  • “Opening up to a therapist feels like a way bigger step than speaking to a partner or a friend...But it feels much less of a big deal.” —Spencer [37:42]
  • Matt finds therapy easier. “I would prefer to...have a conversation with a stranger who’s a professional and then just shut the laptop rather than open up to...family.” [38:08]
  • Memorable Therapist Quote: “Never go inside your own head without an adult present.” —Matt’s therapist [39:23]

6. Parenting and Breaking the Cycle

• Modeling Vulnerability for Children: The group reflects on how to raise emotionally open sons, despite how they were parented.
  • “I have to remind myself as a parent to try and be more equal with them. I find it much easier to wrap my arms around my daughter...I don’t do that with the boys.” —Matt Willis [55:14]
  • Jake shares a story of toughening his son up and later realizing it was the wrong approach [56:05].

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Context | |-----------|---------|---------------| | 02:09 | Jake | “I went [to therapy]...everything's going pretty well, but I feel a little bit kind of flat. I should feel better about my life.” | | 04:01 | Spencer | “If you say, ‘Oh, yeah, I’m in therapy at the moment,’ what’s the follow-up?...That’s what I don’t really want.” | | 06:54 | Matt | “I like to see therapy as, how can I be better than I currently am?...Instead of ‘I’m broken, how do I fix myself?’” | | 20:24 | Jake | “The job description has changed, but no one’s given you the new script.” | | 21:06 | Spencer | “I rally against this phrase ‘toxic masculinity’...Masculinity is strength, but that’s not a bad thing. Masculinity is also vulnerability.” | | 24:06 | Jake | “I’ve got a PhD in [hiding struggles]...I never was truthful or honest about anything.” | | 27:07 | Spencer | “I have this voice...‘But it's not her problem.’” (On not sharing stress with his wife) | | 35:06 | Shane Parish (quoted by Jake) | “Urgent stuff will always come into your life...It’s important that the urgent stuff doesn’t always get rid of the important stuff.” | | 39:23 | Matt (recalling advice) | “Never go inside your own head without an adult present.” | | 47:43 | Matt | “My friend put me to bed one night...I sought therapy after that. The reason was alcohol abuse and loneliness.” | | 49:24 | Spencer | “I rang this [psychologist] number...He said, ‘You need to go and have some therapy.’” (On breakthrough after intrusive thoughts) | | 55:14 | Matt | “I find it much easier to wrap my arms around my daughter...I don’t do that with the boys.” | | 56:05 | Jake | Shares story about ‘toughening up’ his son, later realizing it was wrong. |

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Timestamps of Notable Sections

• [00:00 – 05:30]: Icebreakers—Therapy as routine and maintenance
• [05:00 – 08:30]: Societal expectations and the shifting role of men
• [10:37 – 17:34]: Family influences, trauma, and processing grief
• [20:12 – 24:06]: Finding place and identity in modern masculinity
• [24:06 – 30:00]: Techniques and the personal cost of hiding struggles
• [35:06]: Practical advice—“Pay yourself first” in time management
• [37:24 – 41:47]: Stigma, embarrassment, and the power of professional therapy
• [47:43 – 51:34]: First encounters with therapy; breaking points
• [54:54 – 57:14]: Parenting—nurturing sons’ emotional strength

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Practical Takeaways & Techniques Discussed

• Yoga Nidra for Mental Health: Jake’s endorsement of ‘yogic sleep’ as transformative [41:49].
• Exercise as Mental Health Maintenance: Matt’s weekly routine of lifting weights with a friend and training Jiu Jitsu for social connection and stability [43:11].
• Open, Frequent Dialogue with Partners and Children: Share real emotional states regularly, not just in crisis [30:26].
• Time Management: Non-negotiable scheduling for important—not just urgent—life facets (inspired by Shane Parish's advice) [35:06].
• Modeling Openness for Children: Discussing therapy and emotions openly at home to break the cycle of silence.

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Tone and Language

The episode strikes a perfect balance: conversational yet vulnerable, blending humor, warmth, and hard truths. The hosts and guests are candid about their personal failings, growth, and ongoing confusion, which makes the dialogue relatable and deeply human.

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Conclusion

This episode delivers a vital and powerfully relatable conversation about what men keep hidden, why it persists, and how it can change. The guests illuminate the real-life costs of emotional silence and the slow progress being made—one honest conversation at a time. At its core, the message is simple: “Therapy is not a last resort; it’s a space for clarity and growth.” The episode leaves listeners with practical inspiration for opening up, supporting each other, and, foremost, becoming healthier men in all aspects of life.

Transcript

[Spencer Matthews]

For years, men have been told to stay strong, to keep it in, to don't show weakness. And now suddenly we're asking them to open up and wondering why they aren't. Well, today we are going to open up because myself, Spencer Matthews, the host of Untapped, and Matt Willis, the host of on the Mend, are going to have a conversation that a lot of men are still not having. What you're actually feeling, why it's so hard to say things out loud, and how we can start to change it. This is part of the say It Louder initiative, a partnership with BetterHelp across the next few months, bringing these kinds of conversations to light and a real measurable difference to men's mental health. Let's get straight into it, right?

[Matt Willis]

Shall we break the ice? Are either of you currently in therapy?

[Jake]

Do you know what? I'm not right now. I have been recently, but I'm not at the moment. But I've been in therapy a lot in my life, but I'm not right now at this moment.

[Matt Willis]

Similar to you, Matt, I've kind of had periods of my life where I've been in therapy like once a week for an hour every. And I'm not right now, although I still have contact with my therapist. There are times in my life where I feel like I need it more than other times. But also I'm a massive believer in having it when you. When you're not in crisis, when, like when you don't feel you need it. Like a kind of maintenance act almost.

[Jake]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

I actually quite like the. Sitting with him in this case and just talking completely openly about yourself for a full hour.

[Jake]

Right. It's quite.

[Matt Willis]

It's quite refreshing. You know, my wife would. Would say that I'm selfish anyway, but, like, it's quite hard, isn't it?

[Spencer Matthews]

Never had your dad on someone who wants to talk about himself.

[Matt Willis]

No. Do you know what I mean?

[Jake]

Definitely not. No.

[Matt Willis]

Have you not? Okay, good. There's obviously been great, great progress made in recent years.

[Spencer Matthews]

Your therapist has done a great job on you, Jake.

[Jake]

Give me his number.

[Matt Willis]

Yeah, yeah. So I don't know. It is interesting, isn't it, though, if something is bothering you or you want a clear path through something, to sit with a good friend and talk about yourself for a full hour is. Is quite indulgent. It feels quite self indulgent. Whereas in therapy, obviously that's. That's the point of it.

[Jake]

So. Yeah, I think also the last time I went to therapy, I hadn't had therapy for a couple of Years. And I went there with nothing, really. I kind of didn't go there for a specific reason or anything. I kind of went there. I went, everything's going pretty well, but I feel a little bit kind of flat. I should feel better about my life. Javier Bush was my. Who was like, why explain break that down? You know, and it was kind of a. Quite a weird time to go. And when I told. Told people about that, they were quite surprised. I'm like, oh, you're killing it. Everything's going good. I was like, yeah, but, you know, that's probably a good time to go and check yourself a little bit, you know. Have you ever, have you. Would you ever feel embarrassed about telling someone that you're in therapy?

[Matt Willis]

I wouldn't, no.

[Jake]

No, that's.

[Matt Willis]

That's just, that's just me. I, you know, I, I don't. How do I. How do I put this? I wouldn't feel kind of embarrassed by much, to be honest.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

And I think, you know, these things are personal, but if you're. If you want to share it with. With, you know, your, Your friends or your family, you know, the very definition of a good friend or family member should be very supportive of.

[Spencer Matthews]

Of. Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

So I don't think therapy is anything to be ashamed about at all. In fact, you know, I would see, I would put therapy in a similar category to running, lifting weights, you know, looking after yourself. You know, it's a workout for the mind. So, you know, me. Me saying to my wife, even, oh, you know, I'll. I'm going to be home a bit late. I'm having an hour of therapy after work. She would only ever see that as a positive thing, even if life was an inverted commas.

[Spencer Matthews]

Great.

[Jake]

I mean, there's been times in my life where I've. I think when I first started kind of like exploring this kind of stuff, it did feel like an alien world to me. And it felt like something that you don't really tell anyone about, that you keep to yourself, you know, because people might think you're, you know, crazy.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah.

[Jake]

Or something, you know, So I was like, oh, don't tell anyone, you know, keep this to yourself, you know, But I don't feel like that anymore.

[Spencer Matthews]

I think that. I think there are some people that I might be anxious about or nervous to tell them I'm in therapy.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

I can't think who those people are, but I definitely. I think what bothers me is if you say, oh, yeah, I'm in therapy at the moment, what's the Follow up question gonna be, oh, why? Or like, are you okay? Or can we do anything to help? And that's what I don't really want. Do you know what I mean?

[Jake]

Yeah, yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

So I wouldn't mind saying, oh, yeah, I'm seeing someone at the moment because I'm struggling a bit. But then it's, it's all the follow up stuff.

[Matt Willis]

You don't want the sympathy.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah, not really.

[Jake]

That's why you go to a therapist for the follow up questions.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jake]

Ye. What about.

[Spencer Matthews]

I mean, obviously we're talking about therapists and you go in there and you basically tell them everything. Are there times in your life where, and it might even be now where you don't tell people everything that's going on and you just, you restrict the information that you share?

[Jake]

I think there has been times in my life where I've done that. I've not wanted to worry people. Yeah, you know, there's something about that. I think as I think this is a lot of problem with men right now is that I feel like it's like we kind of got conditioned in a way, you know, like from early on to kind of keep it in. Do you know what I mean? Like to not show any weakness, to kind of like keep calm, carry on, you know, just get on with it, you know, that kind of stuff, which I definitely felt. I felt like, I don't know, it was a sign of weakness to show that I was struggling.

[Matt Willis]

Yeah, I think as well, it depends on the behavior really, as well. Lots of the time that I have sought therapy has been around, you know, abusing alcohol or certain behaviors that I would like to change. So sharing that information with people freely can feel a bit destructive and, and it can come with a sense of shame. You know, you don't necessarily want to be calling people who you love or, you know, meeting people you love and going, oh, I'm off to see a therapist just because I can't control my drinking, you know, that it's like, it's almost embarrassing. Well, certainly felt like there was, there was shame attached to it for me. So, yeah, like, I think that therapy, to build on your point from the stigma of therapy, I like to look at it as, you know, a performance tool instead of therapy. Like something that I need because I need to fix something in my life. It's kind of, how can I improve? How can I be better? Would it be beneficial to have an hour with this person? You know, see it kind of like, I don't know, I'm not A huge fan of the term life coaching because the people giving it haven't lived a full life yet. So it's hard to coach somebody through life. It's particularly as, you know, everyone's experiences in life are different. But, you know, I. I like to see therapy as a, how. How can I be better than I currently am? And can this conversation help me achieve that? You know, instead of, I'm a bit broken, how do I fix myself?

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

Which of course is, you know, it's the same thing, a different way of looking at it.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

I think that's the barrier for young men in particular as well at the moment. You know, like, this whole. I probably would be interested in talking to a therapist, but I don't want my friends and family to know and I don't want people to think that there's something wrong with me. And, you know, and I'm a bit confused. And, you know, I think society expects one thing of me, but I don't feel that I can fulfill that. And so, you know, there's. There's a. I think it's quite difficult in many cases to be a young man nowadays. It's almost like the role of a man has changed. And I think that people are struggling to keep up with it.

[Spencer Matthews]

I think that's really interesting because I think our parents probably and our grandparents, definitely the role of a man was, like. It was clear then, wasn't it? You would be the breadwinner, you would go out, you would graft, you would come home and there's the family. And our grandparents would expect that the family was being run while they're out working. It's so different for us now. It's like, what are we?

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

Like, do we still do that? Do we be emotional? Do we bottle it all up? You know, do we share and tell the world exactly how we're feeling or, like, what. I don't know what a man looks like these days.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

I think the thing about sharing is interesting because you guys have a slightly different experience. To me, that Emma works and Vogue works. My wife Harriet doesn't. I mean, she does because she's at home with the kids, but she doesn't have a job that she goes to. So actually it's very interesting when. When it comes to. Do you tell everyone everything in the world that we're in? Where I work in London and Harriet's in Norwich where we live, looking after the kids, there's loads of stuff she does that I don't even know about. Right. You know, like Get Seb's hockey stuff. I wouldn't know where to begin to find that stuff. Then there's a load of things that I do that Harriet wouldn't get involved in or know about. And actually that does create a really interesting dynamic in a relationship where something happens and your partner goes, why are you not telling me everything? And actually you can't tell everyone everything. And also I think that I see my responsibility as going out, coming to work, creating high performance, building some few other businesses and then making sure there's enough money that the mortgage gets paid and everything happens. And if there's a month where things are a bit tight or I have to have a conversation with Harriet about money, there is like a definite shame or embarrassment linked to that where, like, she's done her side of the bargain. Everything at home is rocking and rolling.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

And I've had a month where like, cash flow has been challenging in the business or something and it's like, oh, like that is a really weird, weird sort of tightrope. I think that I tread sometimes.

[Jake]

But yeah. So do you find talking to someone about that kind of stuff, about the way you feel about that helpful?

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah, I do. I think I like to. Because actually you have. We live in this world where we think that everything is flowing and perfect for other people. And it's when you want to talk to someone else that you would put either as an equal or above you in the business world or something. And they go, oh, no, this is like how it is. It's a constant challenge. Challenge. You know, trying to run a business, you know, with 30 people or 100 people is not easy. Sometimes I think it's easy with 10,000 people because the business is so big. Yeah, yeah. You like, you know, everything's going to be okay. Like small businesses are hard. That's a, that is a big stress point for me. Trying to, trying to be a business person and not be. I'm not employed right. By anyone. Everything I do is, is I own

[Jake]

the buck falls with you every.

[Spencer Matthews]

On everything. There's not a single thing that I do now where I'm employed and that's hard.

[Matt Willis]

Basically.

[Spencer Matthews]

I'm unemployed and unemployable and therefore it all rests on my job. I actually preferred it when I just get a salary from BT Sport. I was like, ah, talk about football and get paid. Lovely.

[Jake]

Great.

[Spencer Matthews]

Well, look, we've got a bunch of questions in front of us. So we haven't seen them, we don't know what they're going to be and I guess we just take in turns to pick them up and speak. So who wants to go first? I think Matt.

[Jake]

Matt, me. Who's going first? Okay, here we go. I'll go first. Right. Question one, the double standard. Who in your life growing up actually showed you how to deal with something hard? When your life growing up showed you how to deal with something hard?

[Matt Willis]

That's interesting, isn't it?

[Jake]

Yeah. So like a role model or something, I suppose, or someone or someone that you were.

[Spencer Matthews]

For mine, it was my parents. And the answer was always the same thing. Hard work.

[Jake]

Yeah, yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

So my manners. We came from a house of hard work, basically. So my. I remember. And you know, these things happen when you don't even realize. As a kid. My dad lost his job in about 1986, 1987. We had three kids. We had no money really. We lived in Peterborough. Clothes came from jumble sales, holidays. If we had one once a year, it would just drive a car to a campsite and camp. But you know, when you don't know anything different, you don't know that there's not much money floating around. So it's just your life. Then I remember my dad was suddenly away from us all the time behind this locked door in the house which was his study. And again, you don't relate to what's happening. But now I know he was doing an ma, so he basically went back to college or went back to uni, whilst working, whilst having three kids, whilst having no money because he lost his job and he was trying to educate himself to get a better job. And so he would still at this time be working. So he'd go to work all day, come home, do his degree all evening. And I think he went for like nine or 10 jobs and didn't get any of them. And again, you don't understand that stress. And then as we got older, it was always all about hard work. If ever there was a challenge in the house, we sort of lent into hard work and there was the answer to everything, which is why I was doing a paper round at like, 12 years old.

[Matt Willis]

Yeah, I only have memories of my dad working, basically, same as you, or he was a serious crafter. He's 83 years old and is still working all day every day. He's just decided. I'm not sure how much he'd want me to share here, but quite funny, he literally just bought a. A pub in Beaulieu in. In the Highlands of Scotland, in the middle of nowhere, and he's just in there all day every Day ripping the piece to ripping the thing down, like doing it up. He's got guests coming in like a few. It's just a quite a random wonder

[Spencer Matthews]

why he feels the need to do in that.

[Matt Willis]

Yeah, but he, and he's built incredible businesses but he just, he is completely attached to redoing this pub. He's 83, he's always worked like that. My mom as well has always been like a grafter, always busy obviously. I grew in the same house as two brothers, James and Michael. James was a very gifted racing driver from a young age. So I would kind of see him like not really be able to be in school. He was a professional racing driver when he was very young. So he didn't do particularly well in school because he was never around to take his exams and stuff. But he wasn't in school, he was busy traveling, racing. And Michael obviously we lost quite young. He was the youngest Brit to climb Everest and died when he was 22. But I remember that pretty vividly as a 10 year old remember feeling, you know, what an incredible thing it is that somebody as young as Michael would want to climb Everest, you know, be that adventurous at such a young age.

[Spencer Matthews]

And what did your parents show you about how to deal with that?

[Matt Willis]

I remember when we first found out we were in the French West Indies at the time that we got the call. I was in my room and they were in theirs room above me and they kind of called me and they said to come upstairs, came upstairs and they were kind of holding each other and they were very sad, like visibly, quite like the atmosphere was very awkward in the room. It was strange because they had always been. I'd never seen my parents upset before and they kind of held me as well and said Michael is lost on the mountain. And I can remember at the time just being quite naive and just thinking well you know that's, that's fine. Obviously, you know, I'm sure, I'm sure he'll be found. And so it didn't hit me until, until quite a lot later but he, they were very strong. My mum in particular was incredibly strong. She was, you know, broken by it. Incredibly sad. And so was the, the whole family. Nobody has been the same, you know, exactly the same since. But, but, but they never, they never showed, you know, a lot of, they shielded me from how they really felt in order to let me live my life as a 10 year old, you know, like I was never dragged into the, you know, very pure sadness of it all. You know, it was kind of, you Know, go and play and see your friends. And it wasn't so much a, you know, I think you would exclude a 10 year old from, from the turmoil of that situation. So I remember them dealing with it quite well. For me, I didn't process it till quite a lot later. So I only had therapy for it in my adult life, like years and years later. And we went to Everest to try and find his body and we made that film, Finding Michael. And you know, I learned an awful lot about the mountain, on the mountain and kind of, you know, just was able to let go of some of the pain when I was up there. But I had a amount of therapy around his death and not really processing it as a kid. I think death is quite an unusual thing to contend with as a child. You know, I'm not sure. It's obviously, you know, you watch the Lion King and stuff and it's a circle of life and it's all a part of living. So I think you're just a little bit more accepting of it, I think. You know, I think when you're, when you're in your.

[Jake]

I suppose that is the case for maybe say a grandparent, but when it's your brother. Yeah. You know, and they're like what, 10, 12 years older than you, it kind of must be kind of like a bit of a world spinner.

[Matt Willis]

Yeah, no, well, it definitely was. You know, it's, it's, it's, you know, we don't talk about it too much anymore, but it's, it will have had a huge impact on my brother James.

[Jake]

Obviously.

[Matt Willis]

They were a year apart, they were best friends. You know, they grew up together, you know, in the same house all the time. Lived together in London. So that, you know, I can imagine, I can only imagine it must have been harder for James than it was for me. Obviously difficult for everyone in the family, but for him in particular. But, you know, I'm fortunate to come from a family where people have done difficult things around me all of the time. You know, like my mum raising a large family, my father always working, always grinding. He was a mechanic and then, you know, became a racing driver himself and then built businesses. And, you know, I see my dad as a real, a huge inspiration of mine. You know, I still bounce stuff off. He's 83, as I say, you know, he's absolutely sharp. You know, if I have business ideas, I'll call him first, you know, bounce them off him. And he tries not to be too pessimistic in his old age, but he Is. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

What's your answer to the question?

[Jake]

I mean, if I'm honest, I didn't really have that growing up. Like. I mean, I kind of.

[Spencer Matthews]

What, hard stuff or.

[Jake]

Well, we had hard stuff, but I don't know if I had anyone who showed me how to deal with it. Like, I was very kind of. I don't know. I felt like I was always quiet on my own in a way. I wasn't very close with my family, you know, I suppose we're closest. Mostly. It was quite a troubled childhood. So it's kind of quite difficult to kind of. I would never go to them with any problems, you know, or they would never show me any problems, or if it was a row or something, I kind of experienced that. But I never really. I didn't really have that until I was probably a teenager. And I had a friend called Ed. And Ed's dad, Paul, was just kind of like. I think he had Ed when He was about 16 years old, and. And he drove a nice car, and he lived in the cool part of town. And I was like, who the is this guy? You know, like. And how is he your dad? He looks just a bit older than us. You know, it was so crazy. And. And I admired him so much because he was so open.

[Matt Willis]

That's huge.

[Jake]

And he'd ask me, and he'd ask me how I was, you know, and he kind of like. And he, like. You know, he'd kind of check in on me a little bit.

[Spencer Matthews]

Was it the first time in your life you'd experienced that from an adult?

[Matt Willis]

Yeah, I think so.

[Jake]

I really admired him. I kind of like. And it was the first time anyone had kind of asked me if I was all right and actually wanted the answer.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jake]

You know, and actually wanted to. And I didn't answer truthfully, you know, but he kind of left that open, so if I ever wanted to, I could.

[Spencer Matthews]

You still in touch with him?

[Jake]

Yeah, all the time. He was best man at my wedding. I love that, you know?

[Spencer Matthews]

Cause I think someone was.

[Jake]

People have these. They come in your life, much to Ed's dismay. Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

And then you. And you're really grateful. Then you sort of never actually tell them that, and they just float off into the distance. And years later, you think, man, why didn't I tell them how I felt? So I'm so pleased you did.

[Jake]

No, no. He's been an amazing, amazing part of my life, like. And I went through loads of struggles and stuff, and he was very much there, you know, and and he was. Yeah, it was like. But also, I kind of. I got this kind of feeling of. Cause he was from where we were, you know, he wasn't from. He was from the same council states that we grew up in, you know, and he made this life. And I remember I went. I went sk. With him right when I was about, oh, God, 21, 22 or something. And, you know, from this, like, appearance of this baller guy, you know, he'd make us sandwiches and stuff because the mountain was too expensive. And I was like, oh, he's still. You know, he's still got a sense of what, you know, he's not like. You know, it's like. So I really admired everything about him, you know, it was a real. It was a real good thing.

[Matt Willis]

He sounds great.

[Jake]

Yeah, it was great.

[Matt Willis]

Do you think men are feeling lost about their place?

[Spencer Matthews]

Yes. Yeah.

[Jake]

Just to pick on something you said earlier on, which I think was really interesting. I think it might be newspaper, actually. Like, I feel like the.

[Spencer Matthews]

Probably me, like, the job.

[Jake]

The job description has changed.

[Matt Willis]

Yeah.

[Jake]

But no one's given you the new script. Do you know what I mean? It's like we, as men, we're not quite sure what our place is anymore. Do you know what I mean? Like, I feel like. Not for everyone, obviously, but I feel like that's a real looming thing. You kind of like, you don't really know where your place in the world is right now. You know what? You know, used to be quite structured and quite easy to follow. Now, what is that?

[Spencer Matthews]

I think you're right. I rally against this phrase toxic masculinity. Right. Cause I think that anytime we talk about masculinity being toxic, we're giving a message, you know? You've got a son, have you?

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

You've got a son. I've got a son. I worry that we're saying to them, oh, being masculine is toxic.

[Jake]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

And it really bothers me that I think that what we've done is we've. We've got confused about what masculinity is, and we think it's like, it's about dominance, and it's about control, and it's about exerting pressure, and it's about pushing and finding limits. Masculinity is none of those things. Like, you know, masculinity is strength, but that's not a bad thing. Masculinity is also vulnerability. Masculinity is hard work. But masculinity is also relying on other people. Masculinity is being confused and trying to find the answer, you know, like, and. And I think that what we have, what we've done is we've taken how masculinity might have looked 100 years ago. We've said it's toxic. And then we've said anytime that anyone shows any masculine traits in 2026, then it must be toxic. And it's not. It's not true. The reality is that masculinity and the role of a man has changed.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

We're trying to work out where we are at. So you have to look at men in a new way. And I don't think a lot of people are.

[Matt Willis]

If we're looking at our place in society, I do think that's complicated for men. It was simpler before. If you take my example, even and yours, Matt. My wife works really hard. She does really well. She's incredibly popular. She does all of the stuff that she loves doing. She earns lots of money. So all of a sudden the necessity for me to go out and do that is only personal to me.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

You know, like she doesn't need it even. So it's sort of like I'm. Even though my aim is to go out, work really hard and provide for my family, that's not really. It is what I'm doing, but it's also not what they need. It's not what she needs. She needs me to be a present father and, you know, somebody that is around and on hand to be with the kids and to help her. Which of course is something that my dad would have just never, never done because he's in the office, he's working, he's not there. That's not his role.

[Spencer Matthews]

And would never have felt bad about that because it was required, it was the necessity to.

[Matt Willis]

But nobody would have even batten. And I lived. He was a bad parent, for example. And I'm not saying that, you know, anyone suggesting that I'm a bad parent, but it is quite difficult when, you know, I'll go out in the morning and I'll train really early and then we'll go and work all day. And, you know, you're trying your absolute best to find ways to earn as much money as possible, you know, so that we can all have a free and amazing life. And you come home and your wife's still out working.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

So it's kind of like, right, okay, well, I'm on kids duty in bath and all. That's fine. That's not a problem at all. I love spending time with my kids, but it's kind of. We're both doing two big roles, and it can feel like quite a lot, you know, so it's. It's just interesting.

[Spencer Matthews]

The next question is, how good have you become at hiding your struggles? Oh, I mean, that's probably pretty good for you, Matt.

[Jake]

Pretty good for me, I'd say.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah.

[Jake]

I've got a fucking PhD in it. I think it's one of those things. It's like, you know, it eventually just tips over. Do you know, the cup just becomes too full that it just tips over. I thought I became really good at hiding, but. But I suppose looking back on it, it was one. Didn't serve me at all, you know, I never. I was never truthful or honest about anything. Yeah, I just couldn't be. I didn't really know what that was, you know, Like, I think it's not until I started therapy, really, I kind of. I stopped performing. I mean, I think that's, like. That was my. Kind of. My thing is, I was always. It was a performance act of. Of, I'm all right. I'm killing it. I'm doing all right, you know, like, I'm this guy, this wacky guy, or like. Or, like, feeding into these ideas of what other people wanted me to be. And it's not until I started therapy that I really kind of went, oh, actually, how do I feel? And I'd never really asked myself that question.

[Matt Willis]

The strange thing about the drinking as well is that when you get to the stage, when you know it's wrong or, like, socially acceptable and you do it anyway, that's when you're in, for me, like, the really murky territory of I kind of really feel like a drink, but I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna express that to anyone because I know it's quite early and I wouldn't want them thinking I'm drinking. So I'll just have the drink and then I'll hide it. I went through a lot of that.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

Like, I'd walk past the pub and it would be, you know, I just pop in quickly, have a quick drink.

[Spencer Matthews]

Boom.

[Matt Willis]

And then just. And then I'd kind of just ignore the fact that I'd had a drink. And then, you know, that might happen again. And then, you know, later when you're with your friends, like, oh, shall we have a drink?

[Spencer Matthews]

Like.

[Jake]

Like, yeah.

[Matt Willis]

So then you're. And then you've got away with it. And, like. So I used to do that all the time. There'd be more drinking than there actually was. On paper.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

And then all of a sudden you're, like, a bit pissed, but nobody else is pissed. And it's kind of like, well, why is he pissed? He's only had, like, two.

[Jake]

Everyone thinks you're lightweight.

[Matt Willis]

And it's kind of like it's.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

It is dishonest. I completely. I. I find it actually really easy to be completely open and honest about everything when I'm not drinking.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

Because there's nothing to. There's nothing to hide.

[Jake]

There's nothing to hide.

[Matt Willis]

There's nothing to be odd about. There's nothing to.

[Jake]

Yeah. I've had moments, even recently, where I've. Where I've. I've kind of felt like I was slightly hiding how I'm feeling. You know, like I'm. Like there's something about me, like, where if I'm. If I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed or like things are getting a bit heavy and a bit hard, I still have something in me that doesn't want to tell people I love.

[Spencer Matthews]

Really?

[Jake]

Like, still now, like, I won't tell Emma exactly how I feel, you know? Are you right?

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah.

[Jake]

Good, Good.

[Spencer Matthews]

Never tell.

[Jake]

Yeah. Really?

[Spencer Matthews]

No.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

But not intentionally. Yeah. So Harriet will say to me, what's going on? You seem a bit quiet or a bit distant. And the truth is, I'm thinking of a million things that are going on that are worrying me.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

But I still have this voice going, but it's not her problem.

[Jake]

That's exactly what I feel.

[Spencer Matthews]

Your.

[Jake]

That's exactly how I feel.

[Spencer Matthews]

So lay there and deal with it. And. And it's like. It's so hard to describe this to people because when you kind of get found out and they go. And Harry will go, why. Why don't you tell me stuff? Yeah. Yeah. I. I kind of want to say, look, there's no intentional. I don't go to my. My brain doesn't go, I really want to tell you this, but I'm going to decide not to tell you. My. I don't even. My brain doesn't even go to the point where it. Where it says, oh, maybe I should tell someone this. I don't even realize that I'm not telling anyone. Does that. Does that make sense? It's not an intentional hiding away of information.

[Jake]

Purposely lying.

[Spencer Matthews]

No.

[Jake]

It's not like. It's like I'm just like, you know, I just don't want to burden someone inside you.

[Matt Willis]

Yeah. Omitting. Omitting your truth in my.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

Is not the same as lying.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

So I think Admitting to omitting certain details that you know would certainly be considered lying is lying.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Willis]

But like keeping something to yourself and not sharing it.

[Spencer Matthews]

How often do you feel overwhelmed? This is a paid advertisement by BetterHelp. We have raised men to keep things in, to not complain, to not show weakness, to just get on with it. And suddenly we're asking men to open up, but no one's ever taught them how. And what happens then? Well, it builds stress, it builds pressure, it creates anxiety, and it comes out in ways that we don't want it to. You know? 60% of UK men signing up for BetterHelp online therapy cite anxiety as the reason. 60%. That is why I know therapy matters. Not because something's wrong with you, but because it just gives you the space to actually put it words to what's happening in your head. And for a lot of men, me included, when I first went to therapy, it was the first time I'd ever been able to do that. And that's why I'm so proud to be working with BetterHelp to kick off an initiative that I am personally very excited about. We want to encourage men to say it louder and get comfortable opening up. Society taught you not to, and now society asks you to do it. So it's time we learn to lean on each other, to open up and measurably change the future of men's mental health. This is about taking that first step in a way that fits into your life. So when life feels overwhelming, I know therapy can help. Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] performance. That's better. H E L p.com performance and stay tuned for the next three months as we talk more about say it louder.

[Jake]

I mean, I go through waves. I mean, right now quite a lot. I think I've taken on a bit too much in my life. So I'm kind of like. But then. But then I have this other voice that goes, well, you just need to get through this patch because then it'll be chill then. And, like, I've been doing that for about a year, you know. Yeah, I might need to stay, take my foot off the gas a little bit. But. And then I think, well, I've got myself in this mess, you know, so, like, yeah, exactly. I don't want to burden anyone else with it because they'll just go, well, you did it. You did it to yourself.

[Matt Willis]

Have either of you ever tried just like, communicating everything to your wives? So, yeah, because it, because it, because it is, it's quite refreshingly nice. This came up in therapy for me. It's kind of like, well, you know, have you told Vogue exactly how you feel about. About this? And. And, you know, when you're just, like, in bed, you know, chilling. Why don't you just say what you're saying to me now?

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

And I've tried it a few times. It works. It's nice. Yeah.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

Because I'm not. I wouldn't say I'm the kind of person that's regularly overwhelmed, but I certainly find that if I don't tell her when things are going wrong in my life, then it does, then that can build up, creep up as a surprise. Right. Whereas, like, I always encourage her to do exactly the same thing is, if anything's bothering you, not even with me, just share it with me so that I know. Because if you bottle it up and you hold on to it and it gets worse and worse and worse, and then there's suddenly this explosion.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

I'm in the dark. I don't know what's going on.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

And it's kind of the same with me. So now I do make an effort. Sometimes I get into bed and I'll go like, oh, this happened today, and this happened today. And, you know, I'm. I'm working through it, but I'm sure I'll be fine. So she's aware of it. Just in case anything blows up. It kind of.

[Spencer Matthews]

I'm gonna try that.

[Matt Willis]

It's nice, actually.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah. Harriet is brilliant advice. Every time I speak to Harriet, she comes up with something, and I'm like, oh, my gosh. How do I. Why don't I see the world like that?

[Matt Willis]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

But then I don't. But then I unintentionally don't tell her everything that's going on. I just kind of. I just get on with it. And I kind of feel like I'm in this really interesting place where I've never had, like, an exit from a business. So I've not got, like, loads and loads of, like, spare cash flowing around the bank.

[Matt Willis]

Right.

[Spencer Matthews]

So therefore, I have to work hard. And the. All the businesses that I'm involved in, as I've already said, I own them, so I have to work extra hard to keep that going. And then my parents are getting older, my kids are getting older. Life's never felt more expensive. I'm getting older, and I have all these, like, little physical things that you start to feel, and it's just this, like, squeeze in your 40s, late 40s. That no one ever warns you about. But things are just not as free as they were even like five years ago. Yeah. But I also feel like I need some kind of reward. Well, I left school at 18. Honestly, I promise you, I have worked every single day. I've woken up and thought, right, I'm going to give 100 today to get myself somewhere where I'm going to get loads of great rewards at the end of this.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

And then I. And, and I'm now 30 years into this journey and I, I'm starting to think like, when. When does this come?

[Matt Willis]

It'll come, bubba.

[Jake]

I hear people, I hear people say that, oh, you're 40 is amazing because you give less. I'm like, I give so many

[Spencer Matthews]

more

[Jake]

than I've ever given with more that I've ever given.

[Matt Willis]

Yeah, that's. That's interesting. Yeah.

[Jake]

What does it cost you when you just keep going and push through? I mean, I kind of feel like I'm doing that right now. You know, I feel like I'm kind of like, I'm in cabaret at the moment in the West End and I'm so. I'm doing stuff during the day and I've got a show in the evening. We do eight shows a week. Yeah. So also I'm filming a documentary with the BBC, which the thing is that I did make my own bed. Right. So now I'm kind of like forcing myself to lie in it because I had commitments, like, on the mend is a massive commitment to me and I love it. And I'm also filming an addiction documentary with the BBC at the moment, which was all tied up in a very tight time scale that I have to finish in. And then I got this role that came through whilst the band was on tour. It came through last minute. It's a dream job. Like the role that I've wanted to play MC and cabaret since I saw it like five years ago. I'm very happy to be in it, but that's like. So I'm working all day long from like 8:30am Till about midnight, seven days a week, which is. I'm feeling a bit. I'm feeling the pinch a little bit right now. But then. So I kind of. I have this, this holiday with my kids to Disney World, which I'm sure won't be a holiday which will be very stressful and intense, but I will love it. And it's good because I literally was like. I did that stupid thing where I was like, don't worry, you're not gonna see Me for four months, but then I'm gonna buy you a holiday, you know, so love me. So that's playing on my head as well. And then. Yeah, so I feel like I'm, I do, I'm, I'm exactly what this, what this question is about. I don't feel great about it all, you know, I feel like I'm missing a lot of things at the moment and I kind of, I think that's

[Spencer Matthews]

the answer to the question is what does it cost you when you push through? I think it cost what it cost you is what matters.

[Jake]

Yeah, that's exactly it.

[Spencer Matthews]

A few years ago I was, I had an interview with a guy on High Performance, with a guy called Shane Parish. And if you'd looked at my life outwardly, I was doing Champions League, Premier League, running, high performance, running the whisper group. Stuff was good. It was like everything was in the, like modern way in which you would measure someone's success. You'd say, oh, that's great. And I just felt totally, yeah. And I said this to this guy Shane, he said, well, show me your diary, which is on my phone. So I showed him my phone and he went through it and he goes, cool, like what do you love? Like what really matters? And I said time with the kids, time with Harriet and a bit of time to play paddle with my mates or walk the dog or just go and watch the Norwich City player or something like that. And he goes great, where's that in the diary? And I said, well, it's embarrassing to put time with your wife or kids or time yourself in your diary. Like that's an example that you fucked your life up somehow, right? He said, not at all. He said everything else is in your diary, so why is the stuff that matters not in your diary? So he described this concept of pay yourself first to me and he said on a Sunday night, sit down and pay you and your wife together, pay yourselves, decide then where's the stuff that we want to do? And because urgent stuff will always come into your life. Yeah, it's important that the urgent stuff doesn't always get rid of the important stuff. So you need to put it in your diary and it doesn't move and it's non negotiable and then you can still be crazy busy and lots of stuff going on and it's like woohoo. But it's those few little things is where your happiness lies. And I think we get, we get tricked into thinking our happiness lies in our business success or whatever and often it isn't where the happiness lies.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

I used to think hardware matters. Now I'm not sure. I think. I think we've been responsible on high performance for actually some mistakes where we've lauded high performance too much, really. I think we've told the world that it's. That it's really important to work hard,

[Matt Willis]

but maybe you've taken that from a kind of a work perspective. What about working hard on yourself? Working hard on your mind, pushing yourself in the gym? I think, you know, I think I. I've been very, very, very unhealthy.

[Spencer Matthews]

And.

[Matt Willis]

And obviously I'm. I'm, you know, pretty healthy now. And I think.

[Spencer Matthews]

I think it's where the element comes from.

[Matt Willis]

Performance is to do the whole thing.

[Spencer Matthews]

But you have an addictive personality because you were addicted to alcohol and now you're addicted to exercise. It doesn't mean it's. Being fit and healthy is healthy. Being addicted to fitness and health isn't necessarily healthy. Yeah, but what's.

[Matt Willis]

What's the difference in exercising a habit regularly and being addicted to something?

[Spencer Matthews]

I think if you're.

[Matt Willis]

It's consistency. Right.

[Spencer Matthews]

Like if you're exercising to remove demons or like to. To give yourself calm.

[Matt Willis]

I don't think I ever say to myself, I'm gonna go to the gym to get rid of, you know, the past. Like, you know, I go to the gym because I like being well, but is there not.

[Spencer Matthews]

I think that's.

[Jake]

That's an interesting thing, isn't it?

[Spencer Matthews]

Punishing yourself a bit, maybe.

[Matt Willis]

I don't know. From time to time, maybe. I think, so naughty.

[Jake]

No.

[Spencer Matthews]

What do you think is stopping men from opening up?

[Jake]

What I think is stopping men from

[Matt Willis]

opening up, like embarrassment, shame and embarrassment. Stigma. Stigma of therapy, perhaps.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

Looking weak.

[Jake]

Yeah, I think looking weak also, who to open up to? I think it's all very well and good saying men should talk, but who do they talk to? You know, it's about picking the right person, I think, at times. Do you know what I mean?

[Spencer Matthews]

I think that most people wouldn't. I think there's less fear about going to see a therapist than there is about opening up to people in your life.

[Jake]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

But I think speaking to a therapist feels like a way bigger step than speaking to a partner or a friend. So I think there's more fear attached to someone who's already in your life. But it feels much less of a big deal, like, to actually say, I'm in therapy. I think it's a scary thing for a lot of men to say I

[Matt Willis]

kind of think that's a bit of a shame. It's stigmatized, isn't it? Because I would think the opposite. I would prefer to go somewhere or jump online and have a conversation with a stranger who's a professional and. And then just shut the laptop rather than open up to. I open up to my family and people I love when I feel like I need to. But, you know, I. I still think that I would see the therapy as like a. A professional transaction.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

You know, like, it's not.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah. And that works for you.

[Matt Willis]

You're not taking any risk and that works for you.

[Spencer Matthews]

Like, that feels.

[Matt Willis]

You can jump on. You can literally just like, spew whatever

[Jake]

you need to say. Right.

[Matt Willis]

And it's confidential, it's private, it's not going anywhere. You know, it's kind of. You don't need to run the risk of kind of, you know, if. If your head's in, you know, really somewhere a bit wayward, you know, you don't need to run the risk of anyone having an opinion of what you're saying, you know, or taking it the wrong way or having it affect them or having them feel in some way responsible. You know, I've had that in the past where you say how you're feeling, and, you know, all of a sudden the very empathetic partner that you have thinks it's their fault. And it's like, oh, God, I'm not blaming anyone. I'm just saying, you know how I feel. So it's better to have the. To just leave it in the room, I think.

[Jake]

Yeah, I learned that quite early on because I went into a therapy session early into recovery, and I walked down. He sat down, how you doing? I said, I've been thinking. He went, that's dangerous. I was like, oh. And I started to go on. He went, matt, can I give you some advice? He has. Never go inside your own head without an adult present. I say, great line is a fucking great line. And I need that. I was about to. About 24, you know, so. And it was a great line. I've really kept to that because, like, sometimes I'm like, if I start to kind of go in there and start to think about things, I can make things so much.

[Spencer Matthews]

So where do you go then? If. Because you're not in therapy at the moment. So who do you speak to today?

[Jake]

But I'm very. Having this conversation has made me very aware of how much I need to do it right now, I think so. So, yeah, I would. I would go to a Therapist.

[Spencer Matthews]

Do you think this though, feels a bit like therapy?

[Jake]

Yeah, it does. It feels nice, I think, particularly already. Already, Already. No, literally sorting you out already. I can't wait to break down psychologically.

[Matt Willis]

Jay's taking sabbatical after that.

[Spencer Matthews]

What we've realized from this is I basically want out.

[Jake]

Yeah, exactly.

[Spencer Matthews]

I am done.

[Jake]

Exactly.

[Spencer Matthews]

I don't know how to get out.

[Jake]

Both our podcasts are fucked.

[Spencer Matthews]

Here's a question, right? Your kids are younger than. How old are yours?

[Matt Willis]

They're 7, 5, 4 and 1 on the way in September.

[Jake]

Fucking hell. Wow.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah.

[Jake]

Minus 16, 14 and 9.

[Spencer Matthews]

Would you.

[Matt Willis]

What's the 16 and 14 year old like? Like, as teenagers, is there a big change? Easier or harder?

[Jake]

Like, I got told this. Everyone always told me, oh. Because I was like, my kids are really cool. Right? They were really good kids. And everyone would always say, oh, just you wait. Just wait till they're teenagers. I waited. They're fucking great.

[Matt Willis]

Great. Okay, cool.

[Jake]

They're cool kids and they're.

[Spencer Matthews]

It's a lot to do with you and Emma though, by the way.

[Jake]

But they're also like, they're just, they're just. Yeah, they're just cool kids.

[Spencer Matthews]

So would you put into therapy, Would

[Jake]

you tell your kids? Yeah, I did last time I was in.

[Spencer Matthews]

What was the reaction?

[Jake]

They were like, cool. But I think we're quite open and also I've been very open about me, you know, and, and luckily they are. I've been. They haven't seen too much carnage of me. So like they're, they're, they know it from like a observer, kind of like a storytelling way of what dad used to be like, you know, so. But I don't think there's any, there's definitely no stigma in my house about that kind of stuff.

[Matt Willis]

What do you do for your mental health?

[Jake]

Do you know what? Something that I've been really keen on is a thing called yoga Nidra. Right. It has changed my life.

[Matt Willis]

Yoga nidra.

[Jake]

Yoga nidra basically sounds cool. Sounds sexy, doesn't it? Yeah, basically it's, it's, it's kind of yogic sleep, right. So it's, it's like you follow a, a script, you put headphones on, you lie down. It's like meditation. But you kind of go into this kind of sleep, like trance, but you're awake and you kind of like focus on different parts of your body. This sounds a bit woo woo and a bit like, how do you do that? How do you switch brain off? But I've tried so many different types of Meditation. And I never feel like I'm getting anywhere with it. This. I don't have to feel like I'm doing anything. I just lay down, I focus on different parts of my body. And then half an hour's pass and I haven't thought about my crazy head for half an hour. And I just think about like if you focus on your fingertip, then your other finger, then your other thing, it

[Matt Willis]

tells you to do that. It'll say focus on your fingertip.

[Spencer Matthews]

That's the idea that it just frees your brain, Brain from. Yeah.

[Jake]

From the spitting out from, from the, from the chaos. You know, it's just a complete like reset.

[Matt Willis]

What do I do? I, I exercise, by the way. I wouldn't say that I'm a. Actually, it's interesting, right. I'm not addicted to exercise in the way that I was addicted to like alcohol and drinking because you lose control of that. It's not like if my day's busy and I don't have time to go running that I'm gonna freak out. Like, it's kind of really though, like.

[Jake]

So, so if you're, if you're on a training plan and you have to.

[Matt Willis]

If I'm in a training plan is a bit different. I, I, like Jake was talking about, I would diarize my training.

[Jake]

Yeah. Right.

[Matt Willis]

I would get in touch with ymu. I would say these runs are non negotiable.

[Jake]

Right.

[Matt Willis]

You know, or like we can move them, but they have to happen this day. Okay, great. I love lifting weights. Like, I love lifting weights. It's a really. I lift weights three times a week at least with a friend of mine. I've lifted weights with him for maybe 14 years.

[Jake]

Wow.

[Matt Willis]

His name's Sean Stafford. I think you maybe know him.

[Jake]

I know Sean well. I know of him.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

He's a wonderful. He's just like, just.

[Jake]

That's a good guy to lift weights with.

[Matt Willis]

Beautiful hearts. Like, lovely dude. Just amazing guy. I love spending my three hours a week with him.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

First thing in the morning, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, if I can, if, if I'm able to. And it really, it, it does a lot for me that.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

And even on, like when I'm away and there's no kind of gym and like I run every day. It's not quite the same. Like, if I had to pick one, I'd probably go with. With weights. I just feel, I don't know, it's. It's really, really good for my mental health that like I, if I, if I go four or Five days without lifting. I'm noticeably a little bit aggravated.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

Jiu Jitsu is a good one as well. I don't train anywhere near as much as I'd like to. I used to train five times a week. Then I got into these, like, larger challenges and I didn't want to hurt myself before doing them, and they take months to prepare for, so I just stopped rolling a bit. But there's another incredible guy with an amazing heart called Paxton Gibbons, who's a black belt, you know, third Dan, black belt under Hodgkin Gracie, and I roll with him. And he. He is like a Sean. He's just this incredible presence and person and a really amazing guy.

[Spencer Matthews]

And that.

[Matt Willis]

That's a wonderful thing to get into as well. So something that I would advise anyone to get their kids into is Jiu Jitsu.

[Jake]

It's funny.

[Matt Willis]

We really want to talk about this

[Jake]

because the two things that bring you the most joy in those things aren't the running, which is solo. It's the being with someone else. It's that connection with another human. Do you feel it?

[Matt Willis]

Yeah. Even running with somebody is better than running?

[Jake]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

I do a lot of solo running.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

And like anyone else, it's, you know, you can't pretend that it's that exciting. It's quite boring, you know, if you're doing, like, a nice tempo speed session where you really have to be on it.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

It's a little different to, you know, yesterday I went for a slow cruise on my own. It's boring. Can be boring.

[Jake]

Really?

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

I listened to an untapped episode, actually. I hate my voice.

[Jake]

Really?

[Matt Willis]

Yeah, yeah. I was listening to it and I was just like, I sound shit.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

That's interesting because that aligns with the feedback from the audience.

[Matt Willis]

Ollie Patrick's amazing, man.

[Spencer Matthews]

Those episodes with Ollie Patrick, he's so good, isn't he? I'm having a go at something for the first time. Making friends.

[Jake]

Right.

[Spencer Matthews]

Which is an interesting thing for me because I've always not really lived in this world where I've needed or had, like, loads of great mates.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah. And traditionally, I've been jealous of guys when they've gone, oh, man, I love hanging out with my university buddies. Or I love it when I get together with my old schoolma and I'm

[Matt Willis]

thinking, I don't have any.

[Spencer Matthews]

How have I missed?

[Matt Willis]

I don't have any.

[Spencer Matthews]

See, I feel the same. I've lived this transient life. Like, I look at, like, my 40th birthday party and I haven't seen most people from it because it was just full of people who I was working with at that time.

[Matt Willis]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

And my brain was. I mean, there's a few friends there as well, but my brain is like, oh, they're your friends. Okay. Now I realize that they're just my work colleagues.

[Matt Willis]

So, like, sorry to. I honestly don't mean to bring this straight back onto me, but it's my 40th. Not next year, the year after.

[Spencer Matthews]

Right.

[Matt Willis]

And. And for some reason, Vogue and I were talking about it the other day randomly, just like. And she was like, who would be like, you know, top of your list of your friends to come to? And I was like. I rattled off, like, three people, and then I was just like, fucking. I haven't really got any other kind of close mates. And then obviously you sit on it and you go, oh, of course, like

[Spencer Matthews]

them and them and them.

[Matt Willis]

But, like, you know, initially, you're just

[Spencer Matthews]

a bit like, oh, what encouraged you to start therapy? What's the biggest misconception and what actually happens in a session?

[Matt Willis]

My friend put me to bed one night, and I thought he was coming around to chill with me, and I was incredibly drunk, and he walked in, and I could barely kind of sit up straight. And he literally just walked in, put my arm over his shoulder, walked me to bed, lay me down, and left. Didn't say a single word. And I was just lying in bed thinking, oh, my God, so pathetic. It's grim. Yeah. And I was just like. And I was like, man, are you coming? Are you coming? Door shut. And I was like, oh, my God. So I. I sought therapy after that. So my. My reason for going to therapy for the first time was. Was alcohol abuse and, like, loneliness. Really, like, alcohol abuse. The two went hand in hand. Like, I'll drink during the day and when most people were working, so I didn't have anyone really to drink with. It was all quite sad, actually, at one point.

[Jake]

When I think of the last time I went to therapy, I went to therapy because I've been to therapy, because I went to rehab many, many times. So I kind of, like, was forced into it. But the last time I went to therapy, like, I was in my car and I was driving, and I didn't have anything on. I didn't have any music on anything.

[Matt Willis]

I thought you were in clothes.

[Jake]

I had nothing else to drive.

[Spencer Matthews]

So definitely make your driving.

[Jake]

Go to therapy, Go to therapy, go to therapy. I was just alone in my thoughts, and I suddenly just went, oh, I'm a little bit sad. And then I noticed it and then I noticed it again, then I noticed it again and I was like, oh, that's hanging around. You know, like it's not like there was no reason for it. Nothing had happened. No kind of like, like no sad thing had happened. I was just like, oh, that's maybe becoming my state when I'm on my own. And I was like, oh, that's, that's something I need to go and get checked out. So I went there and. And literally within six sessions I was like, oh, I realized what that is. And I was like, oh, okay, cool. And then I worked on it for a bit and it was gone. Brilliant.

[Spencer Matthews]

Mine was when. So I had a real weird period in the early 2000s when I had these mad intrusive thoughts. So I would. I just basically thought that horrendous things were going to happen that I was going to do. The horrendous thing is this.

[Matt Willis]

Like when you walk past an oven and you like imagine putting your kid in the oven.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah, that exactly, yeah. You know, or when you're driving a car, you think, what if I just steered into the central reservation. Now imagine living with that all the time. You have that. I did 247 and everything you see, you think, what if I just did this? What if I just did that? But then you think it's real and it feels so real that you can't imagine it isn't real.

[Jake]

Wow.

[Spencer Matthews]

So. And this is a long time ago where there was nothing like betterhelp and conversations like this were not happening.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

So I did not know what to do. So for two years I would lay in bed like sweating and my wife, girlfriend at the time would be like, why are you soaking wet? What's going on? I'd be like. I said no, just a bit hot tonight, can't sleep. And I didn't want to go. Well, for the last two years I thought I'm gonna do something absolutely insanely crazy. And I couldn't talk to anyone at work about it. It. Because it's like you can't be a kids TV presenter and mental. Those two things don't marry up.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

So that would have cost me my job in. I would have thought. And there was no. I. There was nowhere to turn. You know, I eventually did. I was reading the mirror one day on the tube going back from children's BBC back to my flat and there was like an 0898 high rate number advert in the back for, for a psychologist. And it literally said, are you suffering with Mental health problems. Call this number. It's the best thing I ever did. I rang this number. Yeah. And it was like, you know those, like £1 50aminute phone lines. Lovely. And this bloke answered and changed my life. He went high and the voice, I can still hear his voice now. It was the most reassuring thing I've ever heard in my life. And I told him what was going on. He said, you need to. He said, this is really highly treatable. You need to go and have some therapy. So I've tracked down this lady called Ruth who was incredible. And I went in to speak to her and two things she said to me. She said, the first thing is, if you're the kind of person that's going to do the things you're worried about, well, you wouldn't be worried about it. You would just do it thinking it's normal. So you're normal, you're not abnormal. There's nothing wrong with you. She said the second thing. All the pain is coming from you fighting these feelings, thinking a non real thing is real. So you're fighting, fighting, fighting. She said, it's not real, so stop fighting it. Just accept that. Strange thoughts, particularly, she said, particularly young men, which I think is really interesting. She said. She described it as an existential period that a lot of, of young men and men go through. She said men have this and think it's real and it's a. And that's why suicide rates are so high and why so many men struggle. She said, you need to accept that this is just literally imagination and nothing more. Let it go. And, and that, and that was it.

[Jake]

Wow.

[Spencer Matthews]

It was 20 years ago. And, and I've. I've not had a, a flare up, a recurrence. I feel mentally like exceptional. But if I hadn't been on the tube and opened the newspaper that day, who knows how that might have ended.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

What's the biggest misconception about therapy and what actually happens in a session?

[Jake]

I was always worried about that. I thought they were gonna go into really dark stuff.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah.

[Jake]

You know, like kind of find traumatic moments in your life and really kind of go deep into them. And I was like. It kind of felt to me like Pandora's box. I was like, I don't open that, you know, and that wasn't my experience at all. It just wasn't like we didn't have to go to anything. I didn't want to, you know, like. And like sometimes we, we go some places and I go, oh, wait, wait, wait, you know, and it was kind of like much more. Much more open dialogue.

[Matt Willis]

I was always worried they'd try and place blame. So, like, I. I. Like when I first went to therapy, I was always worried that they'd be like, how was your childhood? And, like, try and blame my parents or my mom on my alcoholism, and that would, like, drive me nuts. But then, obviously, they never did that. That I had really weird therapy the first time. I actually loved it. I think he was either a controversial style of therapist or just summed me up straight away. I'd like to think the latter because it makes him, you know, a more powerful kind of therapist, I suppose. But, yeah, I came in and he. I hadn't drank that day because I, like you, was forced by John Knoll, the agent, to go to. To go and see Chip Summers, and walked in, and I was sober at the time. I had drank the night before, but I'd purposefully not drank that day just so that I could be sober for the meeting, so that he could report back to John that there's absolutely nothing wrong with me and that, you know, I'm fine. And I sat down. He goes, God, you reek of booze. And I was like, I haven't had a drink today. And he was like, when was the last time you drank? I was like, last night. He was like, whiskey, was it? I was like, yeah.

[Jake]

And.

[Matt Willis]

And he was just like, God, as soon as you leave, I'm gonna have to open the windows here so the next patient doesn't think I've been drinking, you know, and he was quite horrible to me, like, initially, like, for the first kind of 15 minutes, like. Like, quite aggressive on the. Like, how disgusting I am. And. And I can remember thinking, like, was that a tactic? Yeah, well, no. I think he probably could smell whiskey on my breath. But, like, you know, he did go quite hard. I can remember thinking, like, it was a big mix of, like, you know, do I just sack this guy off, or should I take on board that maybe this is how people see me? And it was the last, you know, I left, and we agreed that I wasn't going to drink for seven days and I'd see him again at midday on, you know, next Wednesday? And. And I left. And I thought, you know, do I just. Do I not care about that? Or, like, do people see me that way? Like, when I go for a job or a meeting? Like, do people just think I reek of whiskey and look like a loser?

[Jake]

You know?

[Matt Willis]

And I thought, well, just. Just in case, let's do the let's do the week. Did the week and ended up doing six months. And, you know, we became very, very close. I even brought a friend of mine who had a drinking problem to him as well. And, yeah, he went sober for six months. Like, it was a really positive time, you know.

[Jake]

Okay.

[Spencer Matthews]

My biggest one was I thought it was more than just a conversation. I thought it was going to feel like a huge thing.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

And I remember walking out with the first one thinking, well, that's weird. I just had a chat for an hour and a half. Yeah, surely this doesn't lead to anything? And I like the fact that it felt like nothing. Does that make sense? It's nice. It doesn't feel like a big thing in your week. It's just like, all right, I've got

[Jake]

a few meetings, there's no diagrams.

[Spencer Matthews]

Have a game of tennis, have a bit of therapy, then have some dinner. It feels like nothing in the nicest possible way. Final question, final question.

[Jake]

Here we go. How do you talk to your kids, especially your sons, about their feelings and what do you want them to know that you weren't taught? How do you talk to your son?

[Spencer Matthews]

That's really.

[Jake]

Kids, especially your sons.

[Matt Willis]

That's really interesting. I definitely find it harder with my boys than I do with my girl.

[Jake]

Definitely. Yeah.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah.

[Matt Willis]

Like, I notice that. And, like, I have to. I have to remind myself as a parent to try and be more equal with them. I find it much easier to wrap my arms around my daughter and tell her that everything's going to be fine and that she's safe and, you know, she needn't worry and nightmares aren't real and the BFG or whatever was on the Tony, like, doesn't. Isn't real. And, you know, give examples of other stories that Roald Dahl's written that, you know, aren't scary and, you know, he's just. It's all make pretend and. And I'll take her upstairs into bed with me and let her fall asleep on my chest and, like, stroke her hair and make sure she feels, you know, all of, you know, the security and the safety and the love. I don't do that with the boys. Really fast earner with the boys.

[Jake]

I've made a few mistakes in the past where I've said something and I've realized what I've said, which is kind of, like, sticks with me a little bit, you know, Like.

[Spencer Matthews]

Like,

[Jake]

I remember we were on holiday once, and we were kind of diving off this off the side into the sea, and, like, we had A hoop, Right. So we're kind of driving into the hoop, right. And he was scared to do it. And I really toughed him out to do it. You know, he didn't want to do it. Didn't want to dive into this hoop. He was scared, you know, And I made him do it.

[Spencer Matthews]

Right.

[Jake]

And, like.

[Spencer Matthews]

Because I was like, oh, this is an important. Parenting's mad.

[Jake]

But no, I. I went. I went into kind of like, this is a. This is a transformative moment for him. I am gonna dad him to death.

[Spencer Matthews]

Yeah.

[Jake]

You know, I'm gonna like that. And it was such a fucking wrong thing to do. Now you think he was.

[Spencer Matthews]

Think why did it probably if he dived into a hoop or not gives a.

[Jake]

You know, like, it wasn't a big deal, you know, like. And I was like, it's now, though. Yeah, I mean, it's now. He said it's first. It's going to come up in therapy for him, you know, I remember this time. Yeah, it's a massive fear of water.

[Matt Willis]

You won't dive into anything.

[Spencer Matthews]

None of us will feel like we get it right, guys. I love that.

[Matt Willis]

Yeah, I. I really loved it. We should do this more often.

[Jake]

Yeah, it's been nice.

[Spencer Matthews]

Thanks, guys.

[Jake]

Thanks, guys.

[Spencer Matthews]

I feel like I've got friends for the first time. Look, I hope that you took something away from that. And if something's landed in this conversation, please just sit with it, think about it, don't scroll straight past it. We talk a lot on this show about what it takes to actually perform at your best. And the honest truth is you can't do that while you're carrying stuff that you haven't dealt with. It will eventually catch up with you. It always does. And therapy is not a last resort. It's not something you do when you've hit rock bottom. It's actually a space to think clearly, to talk honestly, and to actually work what's going on so you can show up better. Better for yourself and better for the people around you. If you're ready to try therapy, BetterHelp makes it simple. It's online, it's flexible. There's no judgment. Just go to betterhelp.com performance and get 10% off your first month. That's B-E-T-T-E-R H E L P dot com.