← The High Performance Podcast
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- [00:02]
A
Hi there. Welcome along to another episode of High Performance with myself and my co host, Damian Hughes. Damien.
- [00:08]
B
Hey, Jake, how are you, mate?
- [00:10]
A
Very well, thanks very much. I'm looking forward to this conversation, actually, because we're going to hear from Chrissie Wellington, the Ironman triathlete, Tom Aspinall, the UFC fighter who got rather nastily poked in the eye a few months ago, legendary all Black Dan Carter, James Milner, the record appearance holder in the Premier League, and Yaya Toure, who joined us recently on High Performance and gave us some serious wisdom. And we're going to be speaking to them all about dealing with pressure, handling pressure. But before we go any further, if people are watching us on Apple podcasts, they can see where you are. If they're listening to us, wherever they get their podcasts, they will not know that. It looks to me like you are certainly not at home. In fact, you look like you're in a very salubrious hotel room.
- [00:50]
B
Well, I am. I'm in Shakespeare country, Jake. I'm in the beautiful Stratford Upon Avon. I've come to meet a couple of mates, go out for a few beers with them, and then I've curtailed my evening to come back and chat with them. You.
- [01:02]
A
Have you, honestly?
- [01:03]
B
Yeah, honestly, mate. Professionalism.
- [01:07]
A
We could have recorded this at another time.
- [01:09]
B
No, not at all, no, Professionalism. We've got. Got a job to, as Roy Keane would say, do your job. So that's what we're doing. So go on, what's going on in your world?
- [01:18]
A
Oh, mate, well, I mean, honestly, it's like Costa del Norfolk at the moment. The sun is out, the sky's blue, it's like 25 degrees every single day. It's lovely. So I'm just. I'm trying to take it easy. I'm trying to just chill and catch my breath. The kids have just come back to school, so we're loving that. Actually, no, the truth is, right, we're in exam time and you know how I feel about exams. I don't believe they should exist. And you know how I feel about school, I believe it should be revolutionized. Whereas Harriet, my wife, is like hardcore into the revision. So we keep on having these same conversations where she's like, why don't you care about the exams as much as I do? So I have to then pretend that I'm caring about the exams and get the kids to do revision of nonsense subjects that I don't think they're ever going to make use of in their life. But it teaches Them hard work. Right. And there's a value in that.
- [02:06]
B
Well, do you remember when we sat down with Ali Abdaal because he was like a tutor for a long time and at the time, my son was going through GCSES and I was asking him for any tips or advice and he had a really good way of reframing it. He said, revision isn't what you can put in your brain, it's what you can get out of it. So he spoke about the Ebbing House curve of forgetting, where it was like just test, test, test and retest. And the more you can do that, the more you can your brain, rather than worry about what you can cram in.
- [02:38]
A
It's actually a good point and I am being pretty facetious. Like, I like the fact that the kids are in this point in their life, says Flo's now 13, just turned 13, Seb's 10. We're now able to have proper conversations with them about, like, you can sit in that exam in three weeks and think, why didn't I prep and walk out feeling disappointed? And all of your mates will be going, yeah, I think it was easy. And you're secretly thinking it was hard. Or you can learn now, at a really young age, the importance of preparation, of positioning, as Shane Parish would have called it on high performance when he joined us. And that if you do the work now, then on the exam, on the exam day, you can just relax. It can be actually a nice day at school, having an exam. Right, because you've done the work.
- [03:20]
B
Yeah, exactly. And how are they responding to that?
- [03:24]
A
Just ignoring me? They're chosen. I know, exactly. All right, well, let's crack on with the episode, because for people that don't know on a Wednesday, we love to delve into the archives of high performance. We go through some of the most interesting conversations we've had, but we like to tie it to a theme. So normally on a Monday or a Tuesday, the messages between myself and Damian and Will the producer, start flying around. And we talk about things that are going on in our own lives, things that we've spotted, things that we've seen that we want to talk about. And you had an idea this week, Damian, that maybe we should talk about pressure, which is so apt when kids are going through exam times. And I know, you know, you had double exams, didn't you, last summer with your kids? You know all about this. This is a very, very interesting conversation to have, because the question isn't whether pressure is going to find us, right? Because it finds Everyone, I guess the question is what we do when it arrives. And so therefore we've gone into the archives and heard from people who, I guess, in many ways have been in situations that most people can't even imagine. And therefore we can learn a lot from them.
- [04:29]
B
Yeah, definitely. I think whatever we do, we're gonna have to face pressure. I was talking to somebody this week who'd worked out in South African rugby who said that they have this lovely phrase that pressure will find you. So don't try and escape it, don't deny it, don't try and find a way around it. Pressure will find you. So learning how to face it and deal with it and tackle it head on is the hallmark of all sort of high performing cultures. You know, Sir Alex Ferguson used to call it squeaky bum time, that period where expectations are high and the pressures really acute. That was the bit that defined champions from wannabes. And, you know, you only have to look at the Premier League title race at the moment to see the sort of neck and neck competition between Arsenal and Manchester City or go to the other end of the table and look at spurs and West Ham. Squeaky bum times, very real in those dressing rooms. So it's a topical area that I thought we could go and explore with some of the finest minds of our generation.
- [05:35]
A
Okay, great. Two Premier League footballers, a legendary all black, a UFC fighter and an ironman female triathlete, all of them answering the same question. What do you actually do when the pressure hits? Who should we start with, Damian?
- [05:50]
B
Let's start with Chrissie Wellington, because again, I hope that when we do these archive episodes, people will go back and listen to the whole of the conversation because her story is incredible. I mean, I still tell people about Chrissie and I'm often surprised that people are not familiar with her incredible story. She was somebody that didn't start competing as an athlete till she was in her late 20s. She's a perfect example of a growth mindset. She had this latent talent while she was working as a civil servant. It was only when she ran her first London marathon and did a triathlon at Eton did she realise that actually that was where her superpowers lay. So I'd love to explore what Chrissie shared with us in more detail.
- [06:36]
C
I don't go into a race not expecting everything to go perfectly.
- [06:40]
A
Why is it important to expect it?
- [06:42]
C
Because then it doesn't. You don't panic, you're not anxious when it doesn't go according to some kind of utopian plan that you Have. So if I go into a race sinking, it's going to go like this, this, this and this and this, and then I'll cross the finish line victorious. It's just not going to happen because that's not racing. Racing. The beauty of racing is precisely because it doesn't go according to plan. It's because you have to hurt. It's because you have to suffer. And I see that as part of racing. That's what I loved about racing, the unexpected, the discomfort, the self doubt. It's the challenge of having to deal with that that I loved. So I expected it and I embraced it. First of all, I found it in the final race that I did and it taught me that I could achieve more than I ever thought possible. And it taught me that my perfect race was when I overcame imperfections perfectly. And so that race was certainly not perfect in the way I was able to prepare or the way I prepared. And it was certainly not perfect in quotation marks in terms of it wasn't without pain and discomfort. But for me, it was my perfect race because it was the battle within myself that I had craved. It was the battle with my competitors that I'd wanted. And I crossed that finish line. I felt really complete as an athlete.
- [08:26]
B
There was that one line that when I scribbled my notes after the interview, there's that one line that Chrissy shared with us that I still harp out to, was I raced the imperfect race perfectly. You know, and I think that's something that when we talk about pressure, things are not going to go to plan, they're not going to go perfectly. It's how you respond to that, it's responding perfectly to imperfections that I think is a really interesting concept.
- [08:51]
A
Yeah. I'll tell you what I think is quite interesting when it comes to expectation. Right. Is that two people can live the exact same experience, can't they? Same outcome, same result in the same moment, yet walk away with totally different emotions because one had way more expectation and one had less expectation. And I think the outcome obviously doesn't change, but the expectation does. So I think most people try and control results. I think what we've seen in the conversations that we've had and we're going to hear from more experts in a minute, is that high performers don't try and control results. They just manage expectations. And it's not. I don't want people to listen to this and think what. So high performers lower their standards and therefore they're always happy with the outcome. That's not What I'm saying, I think what high performers do is they. They separate effort from entitlement. Does that make sense? They sort of go all in on prep. Exactly. As I just said with the kids, they go all in on preparation, intensity, execution, but they don't attach their emotional state to that specific outcome.
- [09:50]
B
Yeah, very much. Well, Ruby McElroy gave a brilliant interview after he won the Masters a couple of weeks ago where he went, I'm just in love with the process, not the outcome. You know, I've learned to fall in love with that. But there's something else that that is called by psychologists, obstacle inoculation. That as part of the process you can introduce it, which is introduce moments of chaos, moments of things going wrong, moments where obstacles are put in your way and you observe how you do it. I mean, do you remember when we spoke to Mel Marshall, Adam Peter's coach, and she said that that's what she did with Adam, where she made him dive into a pool that was full of moss on the front and they had to climb over the fence to get into the swimming pool. And it was all dealing with those imperfections perfectly equipped him that when he went to the Rio Olympics and he had his kit nicked, he was able just to handle it with grace.
- [10:47]
A
Yeah. He also said that he used to, because you know how people love visualization and they love to visualize the best outcome. He used to visualize his goggles coming off during a race and what he would do, how he would think if his goggles slipped and he got all water in his eyes. And I think this is very interesting, isn't it? Because suddenly we're talking about the fact that high performers kind of anchor themselves to standards, not to outcomes. So actually Adam Peaty expected it to be uncomfortable. He expected the path to be mess. He expected the setback to show up at the worst possible moment. And again, this isn't because Adam Peaty or many of the other people we've spoken to is a pessimist. It's because they're accurate. Right. Because often things will go wrong and, you know, it doesn't feel like the world is breaking when it does, because they've prepared for them. And I guess that then allows something powerful to happen, which is, hold on, I'm composed and I'm adapting and I'm not wasting energy in a really difficult situation. So this is how I operate in a hard situation. How am I going to be if everything works out?
- [11:48]
B
Yeah, exactly. Like your brain is a pattern spotting machine. So if you've not built in that there's a pattern that things might go wrong. It panics, it gives you the risk of freezing in those key moments. Whereas your ability just to inoculate yourself against it is something that any of us can do, whatever our pressure moment that we're facing.
- [12:08]
A
Can I call up a clip now of a guy who Damien. I'm really keen to get Tomar back on High Performance. Did you not message him recently about that?
- [12:17]
B
Yeah, messaged his dad, Andy, and he came back and said he was going in for another operation, but he's really keen to come back. I'd love that.
- [12:24]
A
Oh, mate. Have you not got Tom's number?
- [12:27]
B
No, no, just his dad or his address.
- [12:29]
A
You could write him a letter like you did Roy Keane and get no reply, which I love to mention on every possible episode.
- [12:35]
B
I might send a carrier pitch in my own.
- [12:38]
A
Why not? Okay, so let's hear them from Tom Aspinall. If you don't know Tom's story, one of the most eloquent, thoughtful, remarkable fighters in ufc, he actually fought recently. He got a really bad injury. I mean, I don't think this has been said publicly, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's been thoughts or questions about whether he can continue because the injury looked so severe and he's had operations since then. But we spoke to him about fear, and his advice to us was, well, don't deny the fear. This is Tom Aspinall, UFC heavyweight champion, doing the complete opposite of fearing the fear. Here he is.
- [13:19]
D
Well, I'm actually one of the rare UFC fighters that I'm aware of that will sit here and look you in the eyes and talk about fear, because a lot of UFC fighters like to pretend they're not scared. Now, I have been. I've basically spent my life in gyms and backstage at events and in these changing rooms. And listen, I've never seen. I'm yet to see a person who isn't scared, but it's very rare that, like, you'll get a UFC fighter who will talk about fear. Wow. Because it's a taboo subject. People want to be this big alpha guy, don't they, who's like, I'm getting there. Having a fight in a cage with somebody. Listen, if you're not scared, then you're either a complete idiot or you're lying.
- [14:01]
A
We'll be right back after a quick word from our partners. So, Damon, is there much research that comes in here when we talk about people kind of pushing fear under the carpet and acting like it isn't real.
- [14:13]
B
Yes, Jake, it's called the ironic process theory. And in fact, when we sat down with Vex, King Vex spoke about this. He gave the example. He said, don't think of a pink elephant. Now, as soon as you tell somebody not to think of that, what's the first thing that comes into your mind?
- [14:27]
A
Pink elephant.
- [14:28]
B
Yeah, because your brain can't process the negative. So the idea of telling somebody not to do something, you put the idea of that thought in their head. So for Tom to say, don't think about fear, I don't think about fear. That's all your brain will attach to it. It will keep throwing images of fear and things that are designed to spike your cortisol levels to get your attention. So by acknowledging it and being willing to talk about it so freely, you almost remove the power of fear to inhibit your ability. And that's why I thought Tom's interview with us was so powerful, because, again, you look from the outside in and you assume that these guys have mastered it. They know something that the rest of us don't. They've somehow managed to subvert their own natural psychological impulses. And the reality is they're not. They're just willing to make themselves vulnerable and talk about it. I mean, does that ring a bell with your own experiences, Jake?
- [15:24]
A
It does. I mean, look, you and I have spoken often about the book that changed everything for me when I failed my A levels. And I kind of had a moment where I had to really take stock of my life and work out what was going on. And a friend of my parents, an amazing lady called Jill, Jill Atkinson, she bought me a book called Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway by Susan Jeffers. And I think she was the first person in my life that realized that I wasn't in the school plays and I wasn't in the school football team, and I didn't do very well in exams and I lost my job and I didn't stand out, and I had had no successes, really, by the time I was 18, because I was feeling the fear and then shying away from it. Right. So this book, Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway, was a game changer. And actually, now when I think of all the things that I've done since then, I now realize that what that book allowed me to do was sit with that fear. So if I think back to Formula one, when I was told by my boss, the audience will make up their minds about whether you're a good Formula One presenter in 10 seconds and if they decide that you're not, there won't be a second season. There might not even be a second race. I remember calling my parents before that first Grand Prix, saying, I just don't think I've got the ability to do this. I wasn't ignoring the fact that I might only have one race as an F1 host, and I wasn't ignoring the fact that I thought it was beyond my ability level to do that job. I was kind of leaning into it, I guess, walking away from that job. I was fully aware what it meant to no longer work at the BBC. And I remember my first day ever working for BT Sport, bearing in mind I'd left the sort of most famous, biggest broadcaster on the planet, and I walked in a room of six people sitting around a table, and they said, welcome, this is everyone who works for BT Sport. And I was like, oh, my goodness, okay. But again, I was kind of putting myself out there and I wasn't ignoring the fact that there was a huge risk. And even when I started, when I started high performance, you know, I genuinely questioned and as you know, questioned it many times, will people give two hoots about the conversations that we want to have? So I think what that book taught me to do, feel the fear and do it anyway, was that fear is not something to be eliminated. Right. Fear is actually something that if you sit there in the fear and still move forwards, then I think you're onto a winner. And I believe this about so many things in life. You remember when we spoke to Danny Gray, the mental health campaigner, I sort of said to him, people with mental health challenges are not the weakest people in the room, they're the strongest people in the room. And I think if we've, you know, you and I, more than 400 episodes now of this show, I think probably the biggest insight, right, is that the people that we think are fearless, the people that we put on a pedestal, the people we see on the telly, we believe to be fearless. Absolutely not true. Elite performers are carrying anxiety, carrying doubt, carrying pressure. And confidence, I think, is frequently something that people project. It is not something that they feel. You know, fear is not the signal to stop. It's the signal that something meaningful is happening. And I love that clip from Tom Aspinall because he absolutely understands that, doesn't he?
- [18:36]
B
Yeah, it did. And, like, when you sort of share some of the. The stories from your own background, I'm interested. Like, how do you articulate fair now, you know, when you're with Harriet or like, Your parents. Do you talk about it as fear or do you use a different way of framing it?
- [18:53]
A
Yeah, and I think I do. I mean, I'm very good at saying to Harry, I feel a bit scared about this. You know, I think this is. I think this could be an issue. I suppose what I don't try and do is remove fear, suppress fear or outgrow it. I mean, I think this idea of outgrowing fear is so wide of the mark, isn't it? Like, you literally don't outgrow it because as you grow, the fear becomes greater because the challenges become greater. So I think actually normalizing fear is something that I've learned to do and that actually changes the game. Because I think once fear is normal, like, it stops being a red flag. It stops being evidence that you're not ready. It becomes part of your process. And I think the people you admire didn't get there without fear. They got there alongside fear, I think, is the thing that I've learned. And do you remember Johanna Contour when she spoke about your resistance being a 10? And if your resistance. This is the former number one female British tennis player. If your resistance to life is a 10, even if life's challenges are a 2, then the outcome is a 20. But if your resistance is a 0, the challenge of life can be a 10, but 10 times 0 is a 0. So I think that she was absolutely onto something really clever here when we spoke about pressure.
- [20:09]
B
Yeah, definitely. And, well, why don't we listen to another guest that sort of captures how they dealt with pressure? Because I think Dan Carter picked up on this as well. You know, Dan had that great line, didn't he, that New Zealand rugby were the world's best rugby team when it didn't count. When they came under acute pressure, they become somewhat less than the sum of its parts. And it was only the 2007 World cup when they got beat to the France team that they'd demolished just a couple of weeks earlier in the knockout stage. Did they start addressing how to cope with pressure more seriously? Let's have a listen to Dan explain what went on behind the dressing room doors of the New Zealand rugby team
- [20:54]
E
when the All Blacks got knocked out of the rugby World cup quarter final. We were the worst performing All Black side in history. We're the number one team in the world. We're expected to go there and win that World Cup. We were deemed chokers because we hadn't won a World cup for 20 years. Being the number one team in the world for so long. So we went away and we actually really dived into the reasons why we were unsuccessful. And a lot of it was around pressure. We didn't like pressure. We struggled to perform under pressure, and we just didn't have the tools to be able to perform under pressure. So once we changed our mindset around that, all of a sudden we're able to perform. So for me, high performance is all about performing under pressure. And as soon as you realize that you have pressure in your life, you should get excited. And I know you had Ben Francis on here from Gymshark recently talked about pressure being a privilege. And it's as simple as that. Like, I want pressure in my life. If I'm going through, you know, a week and it's all too easy, then I know that I'm not on the verge of greatness. So what I used to do at the back of my run up when I was kicking a goal in front of 80,000 people, you know, the last thing I want to be thinking at the back of my run up is like, oh, my God, 80,000 people are watching me. What if I miss? I can't miss. I've just missed the last two. What if I missed three in a row? So instead of whacking myself, I needed to go external to get that thought out of my mind. So I'd start pushing my toes and the end of my boots into the ground. For a couple of seconds, I was like, okay, cool. I can feel the grass into my toes. Okay, now tell myself, okay, breathe. And then all of a sudden, for five seconds, I haven't thought about missing the kick or all the people that are watching me. So I go back to my routine. Breathe. Visualize the ball going through. So that was something that would really help me get back on track and just reminding myself to just live in the now. Control the things that are directly in front of you now. And that's where the whole process, focus, rather than outcome focus, really helped.
- [23:18]
A
You know, the interesting thing about that line from Dan there is like, he learned this quite late in his career. Damien and I sort of. I suppose there's two things. Number one, how good could he have been if he'd have known about it earlier? I mean, does that matter? It's a nonsense question. Probably because he was the best of the best. But I do wonder whether it's a reminder to us that even someone like Dan Carter is still looking for answers to the fear question at the very top of his game, having been a successful All Black for years.
- [23:50]
B
Well, yeah, because it goes back to what you said. It doesn't matter where you are in your career, the more successful you become, the fears just get bigger because the platform gets wider and your brain will naturally, in those pressure moments, it goes to. It looks at three questions, which is what is expected of me? Dan Carter's got this track record of being nigh on the best number 10 in. In the sports history. So expectations are high. Do I have the ability to cope with those expectations? And then what are the consequences of failure? Now, when you're playing in a World cup knockout tournament, the consequences of failure going back to New Zealand, having been knocked out in the quarterfinals and the stigma and the anger of the fans is all quite significant. So the fear just grows bigger. So his ability to be able to forget about the expectations, forget about the consequences, and just be where his feet were in that moment and focus on his ability to kick the penalty is what I think makes his lessons just so powerful. Because, again, any of us can be where our feet are at any moment.
- [24:59]
A
So do you think this transcends sport? This is relatable to people listening to this conversation who are not elite sports people, right?
- [25:06]
B
Oh, hugely, Jake. I think, as we said at the start of this, that we're all going to face pressure in our own way. Whether it's the kids doing exams at this time of the year, whether it's we've got to go in for a job interview, whether it's even just sort of having a difficult conversation at home with somebody. All those oppression moments in our brain will naturally seek answers to those three questions. Expectations, abilities and consequences. So our ability to filter out the noise and just be in the moment, focus on what we're supposed to be doing, is incredibly powerful.
- [25:45]
A
So the next time Geraldine gives you that face and you've missed that, be where your feet are, Damien,
- [25:54]
B
which is often lugging it out of the door
- [25:56]
A
thinking, sorry, Geraldine, I'm gonna bring in a clip from Jemis Milner now. And I wanted to include this one because I think this is different from all of the others. Right. I think so far we've spoken about what you do as an individual. You know, you be where your feet are. You make sure that you don't ignore the potential challenges in front of you. In fact, you lean into them and you prepare for them and you separate the outcome from the preparation. Or, as you know, Chrissie Wellington spoke about, expectation is kind of everything. I want to talk about leadership because we spoke to James Milner about Jurgen Klopp and he Shared with us what a leader can do for their people. This is potentially the most powerful thing in this whole episode. Because if you're listening to this, by the way, and you're a leader at work, then you'll be thinking, oh great, this is relevant. But you know what? Everybody's a leader. All of us are leading someone and even if it's only ourselves. So have a listen to what James Milner has to say about Jurgen Klopp.
- [26:54]
F
We lost the Carabao or the League Cup Final. I can't remember what it sponsor it was then the League Cup Final and the Europa League final. And it was different to what we, you know, the English lads were sat in the corner like he wanted everyone down in the reception. I think Endo told the story and, you know, we were like fuming, like, don't want to be here, I want to go back to my room. And he was like, it's important, everyone's together. And he got us over and he want us all on the dance floor. And they come over three times, come over like, no, come over second time, and he covered a third time.
- [27:27]
A
What was he saying?
- [27:27]
F
He wanted us to come over and what he wanted to do, he didn't know at this time. He said, I want everyone on the dance floor.
- [27:32]
B
Is he dancing as well?
- [27:34]
F
Yeah, he was having a dance at that time, but he wanted us over to do what he did after that, which I'll tell you. And he was like, he come over the third time, he's like, I'm your manager, get your ass over, basically. And we went over like, sake. We've gone over and he starts, gives a speech and he was like, basically saying, this isn't. This is the start of the journey, basically. Look what I've achieved this year. We've only just come in and you know, basically this is it, we're on a start here. Look what we've achieved and what he envisioned after that and what happened. But he was basically saying, look what we've achieved there and we haven't even started. And then he had us all singing we are Liverpool. And like, obviously he's had a couple of drinks, a few of the others on and it's like, I don't drink. So it's like, obviously makes it a bit easier for them and. But then you see his vision after. And again, that was probably the moment where two finals didn't win either. But he saw the bigger picture and he thought we hadn't even started here yet. Guys,
- [28:25]
A
it's a great clip, isn't it? And it's a really good reminder about the importance of looking after our people. And, you know, if Jurgen Klopp can shift the mindset of an entire team because one person communicated complete belief, then it's a reminder how powerful all of us are in other people's lives.
- [28:43]
B
Yeah. Well, do you remember after that episode came out that Klopp referenced it in a press conference, didn't he? That he'd listened to our interview with James Milner and he said how sort of how thrilled he was that his players remembered with such affection both him and the time that they'd spent working with him. I remember being really quite thrilled that the Klopp almost validated what James had told us.
- [29:06]
A
That was me thinking, we'll get Klopp on the podcast. Now that didn't happen.
- [29:12]
B
Yeah, well, maybe one day, maybe, maybe we'll still get him on. But I think the powerful message there that James was describing, that again, how can we take this away and apply it to our own lives is the understanding of the concepts of emotional contagion, where we can literally catch the emotional states of people around us. You know, this was. There's research from an anthropologist, the guy called Paul Leckman. He wrote a book called On Masking the Face where he talks about how our emotions react, on average, about six times faster than our brains do. So when you walk into a room and you put a smile on your face and you come in with a bit of energy, people will respond to that far quicker than what they will think about what? About why is it that you're happy? So when Klopp walked into that meeting room and gave his players that absolute belief that nobody believes we can do this, but I do, because I know you guys. He's just communicating and making his emotions of belief and confidence and that sense of certainty contagious to his players.
- [30:19]
A
Yeah. I also think the other thing here is vulnerability. Right. And we had a great conversation, didn't we, recently with Brene Brown about this, where she basically challenged elite sports teams and said, tell me one thing you've ever had to do that involved bravery where you weren't also vulnerable. Like there's we. None of us can get to this point where a fear of failure or self doubt is no longer an issue unless we're able to be vulnerable. Because I think that when it comes to leadership, especially like if we're talking about real leadership, we know now from our conversations that it's not how it used to be. Leadership used to be. Follow me. I Have all the answers, I will tell you what to do and if you do everything I tell you, we'll all get to where I want us to go. That's just not what leadership looks like anymore. It isn't about having all the answers. It isn't about demanding belief, is it? It's about someone like Jurgen Klopp creating this environment of trust, of honesty, maybe of challenge as well, where I think people begin to see more in themselves than they see in their leader. Does that make sense?
- [31:21]
B
Yeah, very much, yeah. I think that was really powerful. I mean, like when you've worked for, like you've worked in the paddocks, you've been around the Jesse Rooms, who's been the leaders like that that make themselves vulnerable, that have impressed you?
- [31:38]
A
You know, I think actually someone who I thought wouldn't be vulnerable but really was when you chatted to him was Steven Gerrard. I kind of had this impression of Steven Gerrard, as a lot of people do, that he was kind of like this bulletproof leader for Liverpool. But actually when you spend time with him, like, I suppose it's because one of the interesting things about television, right, is that it kind of breaks down all the barriers. You know, Steven Gerrard knew what he was doing on the football field, but when he first started working in television, he probably didn't know his way around a studio or putting on an earpiece or wearing a microphone. This idea of humility and vulnerability when it comes to leadership, I think it's a really interesting conversation and I think that so often humility can relieve the pressure because as soon as we tie ourselves up into thinking I'm the person, I'm the winner here, I'm the not, I'm the one with the knowledge, I'm the one that can make this successful or unsuccessful, I think the whole thing falls apart. I think this is a conversation about how high performers cope with pressure. The answer is, mate, they do it by leaning into the people around them. As you know, no single one of us is as good as a team of us. And you must have experienced this so many times in the dressing rooms that you've worked in over the years, where you have certain players that can't get to that vulnerable place and therefore it means that all of that pressure that comes with their job, they're dealing with inside, internally, they're not able to kind of share the load with anyone.
- [33:11]
B
Yeah, very much. I mean, do you remember that conversation we had with Dr. Pippa Grange when I said to her about banter that's one of the things I often see in. You go in the dressing room and sometimes when it's really quite coarse, they can cut in and you can start to see the sort of debilitating effect it has in the dressing room and on teammates. And I said to Pippa that I often refer to it as the language of the dickhead. And she said it's the language of the insecure. That kind of banter of just putting the guardrails up, stopping anyone getting too close. And you do it through sort of like the waspish tongue or the acerbic comments that you make. When you learn to recognize it, it often comes from such a place of such deep insecurity and that inability to just be vulnerable, to be honest, to. To almost be naked there and say, I don't know the answer to this. I often find it's like one of my favorite tests when I sort of go into teams is just listen to how many times anybody ever says the words I don't know. And you'd be surprised how infrequently it happens. And yet in the highest performing dressing rooms, I've been into people admitting, I don't know, being curious, leaning into other people that have got a perspective that they don't have have is. Is. Is remarkably common. It's almost like just. Well, I think it's a soft skill that often has fairly hard. Hard impacts in terms of results.
- [34:43]
A
I also think that one. One really simple and easy test that you can do with people. Right, Go on. It's just to see how much they ask you questions about you.
- [34:54]
B
Yeah.
- [34:55]
A
And often it's the people that don't ask you questions about you that they're just. They're not able to share the load. Do you know what I mean? I think that an interest in other people, therefore an ability to lean into those people, therefore an ability to understand that you're part of a team regardless of what you're doing in life. Like, this is a team sport, right? Life is a team sport. I think it says a lot about someone.
- [35:20]
B
Well, actually, as you say that I was going to. Like you mentioned Steve and Gerard there. And I often think that when I've been in the company of Stephen or Frank Lampard, like, just like, name those two, for example, I always find it really warm how affectionate and grateful and happy they are when they see you. Do you know what I mean? And I always think that they're always interested in you. They're always. And I'm talking about you personally, Jake and I think part of that comes from the kindness that you showed them in a moment of vulnerability. It's something that the greats don't. Forget it. The greats don't say that for granted, you know, And I think that they still. That that still manifests itself in their relationship that they have with you personally.
- [36:04]
A
It's very, very nice. Very nice for you to say. So we've got one last clip. What should we bring people to give them some real value at this point?
- [36:13]
B
Well, two reasons why I'm gonna suggest this one. One, because it's a recent episode that I just thought was fantastic. And then secondly is because I did quite a lot of research around the world of Barcelona at the time. So speaking to Yaya Toure about that Champions league final in 2009, when Pep Guardiola led his team to his first Champions League and what he did that preceded it, that removed the pressure and got them to just focus on being in the moment, was inspired. Should we ever listen to it?
- [36:48]
A
Absolutely.
- [36:49]
B
Can I ask you about. There was a motivational video that Guardiola played before that 2009 final?
- [36:56]
A
Yeah, tell us.
- [36:59]
G
Well, I think. I think that. I think that's. We don't say, I think that's it. Bring up this kind of video. Bring up all your emotion, right? Because in the sense of when I see myself and that, for example, I will tell you the way I see it, because on that period when I was in Barcelona, when I see that, I was like, emotionally, I was like, hi. When I say hi is that positive way, right? Because I was like, you speak with the guys, analytic guys, they take a video, they take in all the seconds of the season of each of the players or the teammate of you as well, and they make a nice graphic for 10 minutes for us. Was beautiful. It was something amazing. Because you see, for example, Xavi is small. He fights, he gets scratched. After he talk, after you see someone who fight on there and me are coming cover it. He saw all these seconds of video. He will show it. And this moment, and we're all in the dressroom, sat and then watching there, we were like. And I remember in the end of that tour, player was like, they were crying.
- [38:05]
B
Were you crying?
- [38:06]
D
Me?
- [38:07]
A
I'm not crying.
- [38:07]
B
Come on. Who was crying?
- [38:10]
G
Some of the player was crying. Even me, I was. I was laughing. But in the same way as well. It was like, all positive, right? We were like, jesus, we need to fight for each other. And when we fight for each other, because the video was saying that what people don't see. He sees. Oh, the manager, the staff, even the comment, the guys from the analytics sees. Right. And sometimes even me as well. When we. But I said, when you're game, the action is going, I fight on there. After that, when the ball go there, you have to follow. Sometimes you see your. You don't see your teammate there struggling, he fighting, coming back, or his injury. Fine. And those things. Yeah, they put that on the light. And that was for 10 minutes. And we were like, I love you. Yes, I love you. You know what? And we go fight together anyways. It's brilliant. This is so good idea. Yeah.
- [39:00]
A
So the film that Pep had put together for you the night before the Champions League final, it wasn't a film of your greatest goals and your greatest passes.
- [39:08]
G
No, no.
- [39:09]
A
It was a video of you as brothers.
- [39:11]
G
Exactly.
- [39:12]
A
Fighting for each other.
- [39:12]
G
Fighting each other. Fighting for each other. And that was, I think, for me, that was a fantastic idea. And in the end of the game, you know, after, before going to the pitch, after the videos, he didn't say nothing. And we knew what we have to do. Fight for each other and care for that. Because even then the mountain was saying that if we fight together, we can achieve. And that's brilliant. Sometimes, emotionally, it works. And that's chapeau. Chapeau. It was really good.
- [39:38]
A
So does that ring true with the things that you learned about Pep's time at Barcelona when you studied that football club? I mean, you weren't you like invited into Barcelona to study how they operated for a while?
- [39:48]
B
Yeah, yeah. I was incredibly lucky. I was back and forth from Catalonia while I was doing the research, and there was three non negotiable behaviors of humility, hard work, and putting the team above your own self interest. And so I was familiar, or I'd heard the rumors about that video. But more significantly, it was what Yaya spoke about. It was a video of everybody. And it wasn't the highlight moments of great goals or dramatic saves. It was just everybody helping each other out. It was videos of everybody that had played a part. Even if you were the third choice goalkeeper, you were featured in it. That nobody was above the team ethic and he wanted to reinforce it. And it was a great example that Yaya spoke about, about how suddenly the mood went from players crying, players being emotional, but ultimately, players were determined to go out there and take care of their mate, to look after each other. That mateship spirit was brilliant.
- [40:46]
A
I remember CEO Koliti, the Springboks captain, talking about getting to know the players around him and telling us that the reason why that matters is then all. When you're on the pitch and you've got a few minutes left of a big game, you look left and right and you don't see your teammates, you see your brothers. And I think it feels like that was really what Pep Guardiola was. Was doing there. And there's a few things that stood out to me.
- [41:06]
B
Right.
- [41:07]
A
When he said that, I think the first thing I remember thinking is, hold on, like, you're shifting the. Or Pep's shift in the focus here from the outcome of the game to the evidence that you're. That you've got the right people around you. So, you know, like, all of us have done something in life where we. Where at the beginning, we think, oh, what if we lose? What if they're better? What if we don't turn up on the day? Whereas Pep kind of flipped that completely. And he wasn't saying to them, you need to believe. He showed them why they should believe. Do you know what I mean? It was like, I suppose sometimes you can play like a hype video. Wow, we're going to be amazing. Look at all the amazing goals we've scored. And that video wasn't a hype video. It was a proof video. It wasn't like, you can do it. It was like, hey, you've already done it. I also think. I think it removed the doubt for a lot of those players, and this is exactly what we've spoken about in the last half an hour. It removed the doubt without pretending that fear doesn't exist. So I think players at that level, as much as we like to think they don't, they'll always feel pressure, always feel nerves. They'll always be uncertainty. I don't think you can remove that. And in fact, I think if you remove that, I think it would impact their performance in a negative way. But I think you can also anchor them in something really solid at that point, which is your own past actions have got you to this point as a team, and that's what can help you to win this game. As you often talk about Damien, evidence leaves clues. And this was Pep showing them the evidence.
- [42:32]
B
Yeah, definitely. And again, if people want to go back and listen to the whole of that fascinating conversation with Yaya, they'll hear him talk about how he didn't sleep the night before that final. He talks about how Samuel ETO had sort of sowed a seeded doubt in his mind of going, you playing in central defense. So he spoke about that really really candidly. But like you say, Jake, that confidence is built on evidence. So what Pep Guardiola was doing there was finding the evidence. And what I love about it is what we've heard from so many people. You know, Maro Otoji told us how at Saracens Rugby Union Club, they have the initials tspds, the shit that people don't see. Sam Tompkins told us about the 1 percenters in game reviews of all the things that nobody would pay attention to, but they focus on it. And I was heartened to hear that that's exactly what the great Guardiola focuses on. The stuff that the rest of us don't see. But as a teammate and as a player, you value in the people that share that dressing room with you.
- [43:38]
A
Yeah, it's so interesting. Damien, I've really enjoyed this. We've got some questions that have come in from the audience and a lot of them are about Colin Bell, the 105 year old World War II mosquito pilot who joined us on High Performance a week ago.
- [43:54]
B
Absolute legend.
- [43:56]
A
Oh, mate. Scott Elder on Spotify said, what a great guest. He then said, I was actually hoping to learn more about what must have been an unwavering mindset every time he got into a plane. Now, Scott Elder, and let me explain to you that Damien and I, numerous times in the interview tried to get into his mindset and what happened every time we tried to delve into his mindset, Damien, he just went, I was
- [44:18]
B
just doing my job. In fact, afterwards, he castigated us, didn't he? He said, I enjoyed this interview, but he kept asking me about my mindset and my emotions, how I felt. I didn't. Yeah, I was just doing my job and. But I actually think that that is the answer to the question. This was a guy that had just sort of anesthetized himself to emotions just to be able to focus on the task at hand.
- [44:42]
A
Yeah. Gary Lehman, also on Spotify, said he was very stoic in his outlook and his fun approach. I mean, the stoicism is such an interesting angle. And Oliver said we won't be able to have conversations like this for very much longer. And I think, really, Damian, that's the reason why we were keen to get Colin on the show. You know, he's 105, still drives, he worked until he was 100. But there are literally a few more years for people like Colin to be interviewed and then it can never happen again. So I think from that perspective it was important, wasn't it?
- [45:14]
B
Yeah. No, you're absolutely Right. I think, you know, we often don't appreciate what we've got until it's gone. And I think there's so many of that generation have passed away now. So to be able to speak to somebody that's still so candid and so crystal clear in his reminiscences was just a privilege for us. You know, we're talking 80 years ago when he's still able to describe the terrifying experiences that he must have felt in the cockpit.
- [45:45]
A
And also, if you haven't heard, Oscar Piastri is on high performance this week. A quick comment from Linda, who said a great. I appreciate both the questions and the answers. The very things that some people hate Oscar for are the things that I most admire. He's composed, he's eloquent, he's a thinker. All the drivers are different. Tim acting like Carlos, Max, Orlando wouldn't be authentic. Those who want him to change would be the first to call him out if he did. So go on, Damien.
- [46:14]
B
Well, you went down to walking to chat with Oscar. How did you find him off the. Off the mic as well as on it?
- [46:21]
A
Yeah, I really liked him, actually. I mean, he said a couple things about what everyone looks like in 2026 that shouldn't and can't be repeated, because I think everyone in Formula One is trying to be really careful at the moment to say the right thing about their sport. It's definitely in a tricky place. But he was kind of everything that I expected from him. You know, for a young guy, he is so calm and considered, and there was a couple of things that you would find really interesting. Right, Damien. So he's obviously from Australia.
- [46:49]
B
Right.
- [46:50]
A
If you're going to have a motorsport career, you need to come over to Europe. It's just. It's the. It's the heartbeat of motorsport. Right.
- [46:56]
B
Yeah.
- [46:57]
A
Now, if you're Spanish, German, Italian, English, French, Scottish, Portuguese, you can do this and you can pop home and see mum and dad, your cousins and your brothers and sisters can come to a race, you can whip home and eat a lovely bowl of pasta in Florence, if that's where you're from. Right. Oscar Piastri, at 14, leaves Australia without his parents and family, travels to the other side of the world and is not able to pop home at the weekends, ends up at boarding school to pursue his motor racing dream. I think that is where his calmness and his composure and his steely determination to win actually comes from. And for me, it was almost the most interesting part of the whole conversation. This concept that yeah, of course he's in a totally different boat to, to all those European drivers, you know. Yeah.
- [47:48]
B
And what, and what in particular do you feel that that experience has. That gives him like with the manifests as a competitive advantage on the track?
- [48:00]
A
I think that it is not reacting to the situation. If you listen actually when he gets, when he gets a radio message that he doesn't like, he doesn't automatically respond and shout and scream like some of the other guys. He's actually silent for the first few seconds and sometimes just kind of goes okay. It's this acceptance. It's again, I think Oscar Piastri might be a stoic and he was and he certainly showed some stoicism last season. Hey Damien, have you got a high performer of the week before we finish?
- [48:33]
B
Oh yeah. I've absolutely love watching the London marathon this weekend and Sebastian Saway, you know, the guy that's just gone under two hours in the men's race for the first time in the history of that. What I'm particularly interested in is, you know, like the old start that people tell you when Roger bannister broke the four minute mile and then in the 18 months after that, I think the four minute mile got lowered 37 times in the immediate months. I'm interested to see what will happen. And now that in the men's race somebody's proven you can break the two hour barrier, I'll be watching closely.
- [49:09]
A
I love it when human beings and it doesn't happen very often anymore because we've done everything pretty much that there is to do. But when you break a huge barrier like this, it's like a significant moment. And can I call out Sebastian Vettel who ran up three hours in his first ever marathon. I hope you've enjoyed this conversation with myself and Damien. Please. Like almost everyone that listens to High Performance doesn't subscribe. Please, wherever you're watching, watching this or listening to this, please subscribe to High Performance. It makes such a difference to our channel. It'll take you two seconds to hit subscribe. And we love giving you this content for free. All we ask is that you hit that subscribe button or maybe tell a friend about our show. You can check out Oscar Piastri right now across YouTube or Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And next week, Damian Bjorn Mansverk would you've already recorded the conversation with Bjorn, just a couple of minutes about who he is, what he's done and one thing from the episode that you think people should listen out for oh, well,
- [50:07]
B
Bjorn Mansfurk is a. Is a fighter pilot, a Norwegian fighter pilot that is one of the brains behind the incredible rise of Bodo Glim. And if you followed them in European competition, you've seen them defeat Atletico Madrid, Inter Milan, even Manchester City earlier this year. And you've wondered how a small town in the north of Norway is able to punch well above its weight. Beyond has got some of the answers to it. The one thing I want to tell you about is that he was behind the decision that they don't talk about winning in that dressing room. They don't talk about winning. You'll have to listen to find out what they talk about instead. But it's well, well worth tuning in for. I hope you'll come and join us.
- [50:52]
A
I love that. Talking about winning. I finally think the Hearts are going to win the Scottish Premiership. Obviously we'll find out in the next few weeks, but congratulations to them for their result at the weekend. Right, Damien, thank you so much. You're a top guy, a great friend, a brilliant co host and I hope that you're now going to leave your hotel room and join your friends in the pub.
- [51:13]
B
I'm going to go back to them now but. And all those are all, all those lovely words. Back to you as well, Jake. So thanks for. Thanks for chatting, Top man.
- [51:22]
A
I love these episodes when you're drunk. Take care. Thanks a lot.