Damian Hughes (3:28)

Yeah, it's a brilliant question, Jake. And it reminds me at the moment, watching what's going on with spurs that I. Back about 10 years ago, I did some work with West Brom when they were going through the similar troubles in terms of they'd sacked managers that replaced managers, they' had caretaker managers and they were facing the threat of relegation and what was. And what was likely to follow from that. So I was lucky enough to be asked to come and work with a brilliant set of coaches to do that. And there's a few things that go on in the dressing room there that there's a sense of panic that can. Often starts outside of the dressing room, but it can start to infect it, you know, because people's jobs are at risk. You know, not only is it relegation for players, but in terms of the club itself, there's a wider impact of people that work in the team itself can. Can lose their jobs. I remember we spoke to Phil Giles, the director of football at Brentford, around this, and he spoke about that very real emotional contagion that can take place there. You get some players as well that suddenly start to become quite selfish. You know, they start thinking about their own futures and start looking for an exit route so you can get splits and Divides in the dressing room like that. And then overall, the narrative can start to be that we're doomed here. So understanding how you can get out of it is really important. And at this stage of the season, it's not about fitness. It's very rarely about tactics. It's often around the psychological factors that you can start to take hold and start to actually do something useful with.

Jake (5:09)

Okay, so this is interesting then. Like, teams bring you in either when they're trying to change a culture or prepare for a big moment. That's why you're involved with the England setup ahead of the World Cup. Or they bring you in when they're just in a disastrous moment and they're not sure which way to turn. When you first go in and you assess what you've seen, what's often the question that you ask? And almost more interestingly than that, like, who do you ask that question to? Owner, head coach, the players? Where do you normally focus your attention?

Damian Hughes (5:38)

Well, that often depends on who's invited you in. So if it's a head coach, you've got a good start there because they recognize that they need some internal input. If it's an owner and they're imposing you on a head coach, that's a lot more difficult because then you've got to convince a head coach that they're not being undermined, they're not being somehow made to look silly with this. So let's assume it's the head coach that asks you to come into a situation like that. The first question I will ask them is tell me when you've been good. Because often if they're in a crisis mode, they're only focused on the negatives. They're focused on all the things that are going wrong. So the first question is to try and escape that negativity bias and say, tell me the best game you've had in the last three or four months. And most people can identify it, or they can certainly identify it might be a half or it might be a certain intense period where they've done something good. And then I just asked them to describe it to me. What was it in behavioral terms that was happening when you were good? So I'll give you an example. Like with West Brom, at the time, there was a game where they'd be in Liverpool, it was a Monday night game, and they'd be to Liverpool. And pretty much everybody could unanimously say that was us when we were at our best. So I got them to describe what is being at your best like, and they Ident. So what did Brendan Rodgers, who was the manager of the Pill at the time, say about you? And they could come up with a list. So they ended up winning the game. I think it was 2 nil. But the goals were scored quite late in the game. So the players I eventually identified, there was three things that were. That were present in terms of behaviors when, when they. When they won that game. One was this lovely idea. They said sensible, hard work. So they weren't just running around wildly. They did their job and worked really hard. They were really resilient, was another one, because they didn't get the win too late. So they just had to keep plugging away and believing. And then the third one was they had each other's back. So there was no infighting, there was no bickering, there was just constant encouragement and reinforcing each other. So that then became our blueprint. We said if we focus on developing those behaviors and we demonstrate those behaviors and we marry them up with the talent that we have in the room, we know that it gets results. So our focus then became on how do we. How do we. How do we develop those behaviors in training, in, in. In. In our everyday interaction and then how do we manifest that in. In a game situation where we can go out and demonstrate our best? So what we did over the next few months was just literally focus on. Or my role was to focus on those behaviors.

Jake (8:24)

It's so incredible, isn't it, that I think often as fans we lean on to like, the manager isn't good enough or the players aren't good enough or. And so often those things are the same. I mean, I would. I'd love to talk for a moment, if you don't mind, about Norwich City, because we've. Obviously it's my football club, but I was lucky enough to. To be there at the weekend and spend some time with Ben Napper, who's the sporting director. And he was a guy who was so hugely under the Koch earlier on in the season when we were losing games of football and there was loads of fan criticism, we weren't playing very well. He'd fired the previous manager that he'd hired called Johannes Hoff Torup, who was a young guy who came from a foreign league into the championship, which is a hard place to come. He then hired Liam Manning from Bristol City and it hadn't gone well. So his last two management hires had gone badly. And the players that he'd signed obviously hadn't played well under those managers because we were losing games. Of football. And then we've now hired Philippe Clement. So I actually, this is so interesting. I went to see Norwich at the weekend and the cad, sort of 10 minutes with Ben and I said to him, like, how did it come about that you managed to get Philippe Clement? He means a guy who I think for the last eight seasons has either managed in the Premier League or the, or the Europa League, right? And we were second bottom of the championship then. So he went and met five managers and he said actually like he, they were almost like laughing with disbelief that Philip Clement was going to meet them, not even take the job, just meet with Norwich in the position that we were in was amazing for them. And I said, how did you convince him to say yes? And I thought the answer was amazing because Ben said, well, usually in these situations you'll go in as the sporting director or the owner or the chief executive, whatever, and you go, look, we've been a bit unlucky. The fan unrest has caused a few issues with the player's mentality. We thought we were planning for this and then this happened. We've got a long term vision and there's always going to be bumps in the road. He said, instead, we went to Philippe Clermont and just said, we've made loads of mistakes and these are the mistakes. And he laid them all out. He said, we should have done better in this. We got this wrong. We failed with this. We need you to come in and solve these problems and help us and move us forward. And he said that Philippe was so sort of surprised that he wasn't getting the usual BS that you get in football and in business. And he sort of just went, man, I like the honesty here is so refreshing. And so I obviously give huge credit to Ben for knowing that that was the right approach to take, but also the fact that we live in such an interesting world where just being honest was enough for Norwich to get a manager that we shouldn't normally have got. But then he's come in and the transformation's been, I mean, with a second bottom, right?

Damian Hughes (10:58)

Yeah, go on.

Jake (10:59)

We've got nine games left this season. If we get the results in the next nine games that we've just had in the last nine games, we'll make the playoffs. Wow, that's unbelievable. So we've got nine games left, we need to win seven. I think we've taken something like 42 points from the last 20 games or something insane. Like we're, we just. It's just incredible. And I also then spoke with Zoe Weber, who is the CEO at Norwich, so works alongside Ben Napper. And I said, what do you think is the difference that Philippe's made? And again, she said, well, our previous two managers were younger and looking to make their way in the game and were wedded to a system that was going to be their identity. She said, Philippe. Philippe's come in as an experienced manager with nothing to prove to Norwich or the fans or football. You know, he has done it right and he's gone, well, I just win games of football. I'll just. So she. She said it's like his flexible thinking of just trying to win rather than trying to impress people. And I think that's like that.

Damian Hughes (11:55)

The.

Jake (11:55)

The freedom, the psychological freedom he's got, I think has. Has sort of been passed to the players and that's been passed to the fans. And it is. I've never known a turnaround like it. I know it's just Norwich, I know it's just the championship. I know I'm biased because it's my football club, but I think it's a great reminder that pretty much everything is staying the same there, apart from changing one single person. And we'll look at the difference.

Damian Hughes (12:18)

Well, we'll just unpick what you've just said there, because that's what's really fascinating, that the fact that Ben turns up and admits mistakes right away with somebody is. If you're a manager, you know, with the experience of someone like Philippe, that I'm going to make plenty of mistakes as well. And yet I've just been in the presence of some of my boss that is also admitting fallibility. So that term that we bandy around an awful lot of psychological safety. So if you're Philippe Clement, you're thinking right away, this is a place where they're going to accept my own fallibilities, that I don't have to come in and claim superpowers that I don't have or an ability that is actually not going to be matched up in such a competitive environment that that's the first thing that would stand out for you. That as a manager, that must be liberating. Like, I sometimes say this when I work with head coaches that when they take over a club, I say, when you. Like when you get beat in your first game, that is a perfect opportunity to go in and own it. So own the mistake. Don't go in and start talking about mistakes from the players. Go in and go. I set you up wrong there. I didn't get the tactics right. I. Or like Whatever way you can admit fallibility in that first defeat is really important because what you give it the players permission to admit their errors, to start taking accountability as well. So, Ben, doing that is really effective. And then the second idea that you said there about this is not a manager coming in wedded to a certain philosophy that I think over the last few years we've sort of become obsessed with these ideas that all the great managers have certain philosophies. And I think when you look at them, they're all pragmatists. They do what they need to do. They adapt to the resources they've got rather than sort of complain about those resources that it doesn't allow them to achieve their vision. Ultimately, you've got to be winning. I was talking to a friend of mine recently about, you know, the fallout with Serena Beekman and Mary Earps, where Mary revealed in her book that she was upset at the selection of Hannah Hampton because of her behavior in the past and she felt that she was being rewarded. And Serena Vegman's response was perfect. She just went, my job is to win. Yeah, I'm not. And, and only when you can win do you get to actually then start dictating the style of play. But you need to convince people that that style of play is going to win. So just get the wins on the board. First of all, if you want people to believe in you, give them the evidence rather than keep trying to convince them of, like, jam tomorrow.

Jake (14:58)

Well, look, we've spoken about Norwich going from Porter to okay, we've spoken about the work that you've done in clubs. Let's just talk about, I guess, the biggest story in world football at the moment about a team being in this kind of death spiral. Look, this is off the back of a good result of the weekend when they drew one all against Liverpool. But the European season's over. 12 straight games in the Premier League without winning. Their longest run since 1935. Two wins all season in the league at home. I mean, some teams that have been relegated from the championship have got better home form. 13 points, 34 points from their last 39 league games. This is a really, really interesting one because I don't know what Tottenham do next, Damian, because they've tried to change managers, they've tried to sign players. The chief exec has left the football club, obviously. We spoke with Mauricio Pochettino on high performance just recently, and I think I would be amazed if he isn't their manager after the World cup in, in the summer. But I just, I wonder really what it feels like inside that spurs dressing room, just how painful it is week after week. And particularly, I don't know whether you've ever spoken to players about this, like when you're really difficult, period your emotions just before you go out and play a game. And I guess what advice you would give to players where the fear is at its highest as they're about to walk out. The moment in their life when they need the most freedom is the. The moment when they have the least freedom.

Damian Hughes (16:20)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It, it's a fascinating place to be. Like looking at it as an outsider at spurs, you starting to see that, that it won't be fitness related. Like when Tudor took over, I think one of the first things he said is, I'm here to work. And then quite quickly he did what loads of managers do when they go into a club and go, the fitness isn't good enough. Well, that to me is often seen as a bit of a sticking plaster because at this stage of the season, these are professional athletes, they will be fit. So it's something psychological. That is where the real work needs to do. And I think this whole thing of playing to win versus playing to lose is a really interesting point of view at the moment because the research on it says that some people are promotion focused, that they play to win and they're your creative players. They're the ones that take the risk, that look at making that pass that might be a little bit risky or taking a shot when the odds might be against them. So having a promotion focused outset, they're the ones that are focused on actually we can climb higher in the table here. Some people have a prevention focused mindset, which is how do we not get beat? How do I do my job? How do I focus on this? So if you're a manager, you need to be looking at who are the ones that have got this promotion focused mindset, the ones that are still willing to take that risk and do something different in the pressure moments and harness them, deal with them differently than the way you would focus on the prevention focus mindset. And you'd hope your prevention focused mindset characters are your defenders, your defensive midfielders, the ones that like to dig in, do a job and stop the opposition playing. So that would be the first thing that I'd be looking at if I was working in an environment like that, and then deal with both of those two types very differently. Because when you talk about fear, when you leave the dressing room, people will be interpreting it in different Ways some people will be seeing it as this is a stage where I can really make a difference. We're in desperate circumstances and I'm willing to try and be creative and, and, and, and be the difference here, where some people will just be focused on doing their job and stopping the opposition. You need to work out who is motivated by which of those outcomes and deal with them very, very differently.

Jake (18:45)

So. Interesting. Well, I'm pleased to say we're now joined by Guest, who's going to come and talk to us about what it might be like to be in the death spiral, but equally what it's like when you're feeling good and when you're feeling like. Welcome to High Performance, legendary goalkeeper Tim Krull. Hello, Tim.

Tim Krul (19:03)

Good morning.

Jake (19:04)

Where are you? You're in the car, heading somewhere. What's going on?

Tim Krul (19:07)

I'm heading to the airport. I'm off to Holland. So I just dial in listening to this very important point. I think what Damien just mentioned there. I've been part of multiple teams where a lot of players just go into this kind of protective mode and you see it and this is what the manager needs to work out now. He needs to work out who's with him, who's still got that confidence to dare to pass that ball through the line still goalkeeper who dares to come for those difficult crosses. And I think that's where you see the teams who will stay up and the ones who are going to crumble.

Jake (19:40)

So what does behaviour look like when a player is in protection mode? How do you know your teammates are in that position?

Tim Krul (19:47)

They go, say fast, so they turn back. They don't dare to step into through the lines or take on that shot today. And you can see it. And it's normal. If you've got 50,000 people, they're putting pressure on you and you kind of. You don't want to make that mistake because you know you're going to get ousted in the press, the fans, all going to get on your back. If you make it at one mistake, that loses that game. So I get it. But that's the difference between the top High Performance and the ones who are just unfortunately going to crumble on the. On the biggest stage.

Jake (20:19)

And what have managers that you've worked under or played under have done when they've seen that? I think this is the interesting point.

Tim Krul (20:24)

So they actually. Well, to be fair, I've seen Tudor yesterday, obviously gave a few debuts to young players. And I think that's the thing with young players, they don't really Think about the pressures as much. So I think when you get older, you start worrying about the consequences of relegation and I think realizing that relegation will impact the club, people will be sacked, you know, there will be a lot of redundancies. So this oak, this all. There's a lot of players who take that on the pitch. And I think this is where, again, you need to find that core, you need that experience core that protects the change of room, protects that kind of confidence, even though it's low. And I think yesterday for Tottenham in particular, away at Anfield, everybody wrote them off and if they lost yesterday, the manager would have probably been sacked, the fans would have demanded it and now they've got something to kind of go off for the next week, I suppose.

Damian Hughes (21:19)

And when you're in a situation like this at Luton, Tim, like when everybody was writing you off and there was that rally at the end of the season there, like, what was it that made the difference?

Tim Krul (21:33)

I think ultimately it's the real belief. So even at Newcastle, going to Barcelona, you have respect for Barcelona, but if you've been playing these kind of high pressure games, you've got international players who've dealt with this kind of pressures, that's going to see you through. When I was at Newcastle, we played a quarter final Europa League at Benfica, but we gave him so much respect in that first game. So you already kind of lost the tie because you kind of won 20 down and then after 90 minutes you kind of go, oh, we actually have a chance, but that's too late. And I think that's the big difference with teams like Lutheran, like Norwich, where when you promote, you've got a lot of players who haven't played in that Premier League or those big stadiums. And I think that's a big problem there. Obviously Tottenham hasn't got that issue, but they've, they've got a lot of young players who haven't witnessed or been part of a relegation battle and they're going into this kind of protection mode. And I've been in change rooms where this play is there kind of half thinking, well, if we relegate, I'm going to probably leave in the summer anyway because I'm good enough or I can go maybe for half price. And that's the danger. If that starts creeping into a changing room and players start looking at each other in a different way. It's really tricky because then people start pointing fingers. You lose in games, losing games, and then it's a slippy slope.

Jake (22:50)

Can I, can I get your thoughts on the situation with the goalkeeper, Kinski, Tim, I mean, not just taking off the keeper after 60 minutes, but also the manager not even acknowledging him as he walks off the pitch. What sort of an impact would that have had in the dressing room, do you think? And on the players around him.

Tim Krul (23:06)

The manager made a big decision and that's obviously managers getting paid to make those big decisions. But for me it was the problem, not so much the substitution, it was more dropping the number one before the game, having a game plan to go into the last 16. Atletico Madrid, massive game. And then after 15 minutes, five touches of the goalkeeper, two mistakes. Yes. To just abandon that plan and kind of scapegoating this young goalkeeper who hasn't played since October. That for me was the biggest problem, that you're making a plan. You've clearly thought through this amazing big, big game and yeah, he just chucked somebody under the bus. And it's such a bad way of man management because your leader should be the captain of the ship and if he starts showing signs of not being confident or making erratic decisions like that, that can just go straight to the changing room.

Jake (24:01)

And when you say go straight to the changing room, this is the interesting insight you can give us. We all know it was a strange decision by the manager, but we haven't been in Premier League dressing rooms. What would it have been like after that game and what would the impact been, do you think, on those players?

Tim Krul (24:14)

Ultimately new managers, when they come in, they've got the new ideas. You need the wins to kind of get to change the room on board. Right after one meeting, you will have players in that change room either fully on board or going, this guy is a chance. Or it's crazy. Literally I've seen assistant managers, managers losing a change room after 10 minutes and it takes a long time to win that back. And that's why I was buzzing for Liam Rosinho at Chelsea winning, Michael Carrick winning at United because he's literally even Norwich with Philippe Clement, you going in and you've got a club where the whole fan base, the whole change room is not aligned or United, you need wins to implement your plans. And. And I think that's where Tottenham losing those first four games and nearly losing again yesterday, they were just destined to go down. So hopefully for them, this draw at Anfield will give them a bit of that confidence that players start believing that there's still hope. And there is, clearly because, I mean, are they too big to go down? I was part of the Newcastle United Group with Marco and we thought we were potentially too big to go down, but we did.

Damian Hughes (25:26)

And when people talk about a manager losing the dressing room, Tim, what does that look and feel like?

Tim Krul (25:33)

It's awful. It's awful. Not just managers, but even that's why it's so important to have assistant coaches who take training. If you've got somebody who hasn't got that confidence or that aura or that respect of the change room, it could be a really, really rough place for a coach or a manager. And you will have going into detail about it. Yeah, you probably lose 50% of the change room with meetings. And they were like, hitting each other, going, he doesn't know what he's talking about. Or it's a dangerous place. And it's such a fine line for a manager when he comes in, because that's why man management is so key. You need to keep everybody on board and you've got your little cliques. And if you lose your experience core, that can literally flip in two or three bad losses or bad meetings.

Jake (26:26)

And when a manager loses a dressing room, right, are the players respectful and sit there and listen and they train and then they talk to each other differently, or are they literally totally obvious in front of the manager, like just making him. Making him absolutely clear they're not having him?

Tim Krul (26:43)

Depends on the players. Like, I've been part of a few change rooms where there's some. I won't name names, but where a manager is getting appointed. So there was a sporting director came in or the chairman came in to tell the change room, right, tomorrow we're appointing this guy and players actually saying, oh, what's he going to teach me? What's he doing? Like, he's been sacked by so many clubs already. What's he. And it's incredible. It's incredible. And this is. This happens, you know, and this is where managers have to earn the respect. And it's the same with a new player coming into a change room. You have to earn the respect. And it didn't help, in my opinion, where the Tottenham manager starts slagging all the stuff, what they've been up to in the last season and that they're not fit enough and the quality is not good enough. I mean, I don't get those kind of interviews. But, yeah, he's clearly wanting an instant impact or a reaction. But for me personally, my experience, that doesn't bode well if you then don't win.

Jake (27:43)

Yeah. Listen, mate, we'll let you get yourself to Holland. Lovely to see you. Thanks so much for Joining us and sharing these insights. It's really interesting for us.

Tim Krul (27:51)

No problem. Thank you for having me, guys.

Jake (27:53)

Oh, what a nice guy. And the thing is, it's interesting, isn't it? Because there was a moment there. If people are watching this, they would have seen it. He was obviously thinking, how much detail do I go into here about what I've actually seen in my career? Like obviously there's some, been some bad behavior in front of various managers. But you know, Tim's had promotion with Norwich. He was brought on for the, a huge World cup game by Louis Van Gaal to face penalties and in a penalty shootout and it was successful. He's been relegated with Luton, relegated with Newcastle. He's seen the highs and the lows of football. And I think what was interesting for me there is, is really when he, he was kind of explaining about as soon as, as soon as addressing him is lost, it's a really hard thing to turn around. And the players will make their decisions within 10 minutes on whether a manager can, can, can help them or not.

Damian Hughes (28:39)

But that's what I love that, what he was saying there, that. And it goes back in, in many ways to where we started the conversation, Jake, about as a manager, if you first start coming in with that sense of negativity, these players are not fit enough. You're making excuses that then allows that emotional contagion of, well, if he can make the excuse and blame other people, so can I. Whereas if you can somehow shift that negativity bias and start talking about, this is what we're gonna do, this is what we're good at. These are the moments that I want to replicate when we're at our very best. You shouldn't give yourself a fighting chance of winning the dressing room and, and getting that belief. I mean, there's stuff about the goalkeeper coming off. I love Tim's point there. It's not almost that, it's almost what it represents. So it's not the fact that he didn't put his arm around his shoulder afterwards. You know, the guy was obviously to me in panic mode. You know, I saw some of the comments afterwards from say, Joe Hart or Peter Schmeichel or David de Gea, talking about how scandalous it was that it didn't try and console him. Like when Joe Hart was saying it. I was thinking about that moment, you know, when he, he was screaming at a ball boy once when he was playing for England. And it's like, mate, when you're under pressure, you behave in ways that you probably would be embarrassed at yourself. When you look back on it many years later is when we showed him that clip, he went, oh, actually that wasn't my best, my best moment. So I've no doubt that Tudor, in that moment, if he could go back and replay it, probably would have shown a little bit more decency and compassion to him. But he was obviously in panic mode that, like Tim said, he's. He's had this game plan that is abandoned after 15 minutes because it's gone so badly wrong that he was like a rabbit in the headlights himself, I imagine. So emotional contagion is another really important factor here of being able to present this image of calm and knowledge and that we're all following the process rather than getting caught up in the outcomes. That's a really underrated virtue of so many managers that often they need help and support in just being able to present that to the dressing room and to the rest of the world. I mean, it was Arsene Wenger that once said, I think one of the most interesting comments I've ever read from him was he was at UEFA coaching panel where he said the most important five minutes of his week is the interview that he gives to the media after a game because that sets the tone in his whole club of like kind of narrative of the week ahead. So I used to work with a coach who would prepare his post game interviews before the game itself because he said there will only be three outcomes will either win, lose or draw. So if I've got a response prepared for each of those three outcomes, I don't find myself being reactive. So if you're going in front of the television cameras and blaming the referee for a poor decision and that was the reason we got beat. Well, how do you get players to take accountability when you do the game review? Because you've already given them the excuse of going, well, it wasn't you, it was the referee. Whereas if you've already prepared your answer that you're going in there and we weren't good enough on these areas and this is how we're going to fix it, you then allow yourself to have that consistent messaging throughout the week when you're talking to the players that have to go and execute it.

Jake (32:09)

Very interesting. Right, we're going to take a very quick break. When we come back, we're going to be talking about Gordon Ramsay, we're going to be talking about Kimi Antonelli, we're going to be reading out some of your thoughts on high performance and answering some of your questions First A Quick word from our Sponsors this episode is

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Jake (34:34)

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Jake (35:13)

Welcome back. Let's go straight to some of your questions about the show. We've got a nice one here from Rosy Cheeks, who says, I love that Adrian Newey seems like an honest team principle. It's widely speculated Aston Martin are making the situation seem far worse than it actually is to get possible rule changes faster. Aston Martin are saying they sort of trusted Honda blindly up until they visited the factory for the first time in November. But Cowell and the team were already there in spring and saw the state of Honda and their engine. He himself said so. So Rosie, I think, has got a little bit of a conspiracy theory going on there, Damien, about whether Aston Martin. Well, she thinks that Aston Martin are making themselves look worse so that they can get some equality in the engines going forwards after the next Grand Prix, which is. Which is interesting. Hey, did you listen to the interview that I had with David Dean on High Performance, Damien?

Damian Hughes (36:00)

Yeah, I loved it.

Jake (36:02)

I've got a nice message from Conquesticon F4W, who says, I'm thankful that David Dean has finally cleared the air on the Ashley Cole saga. For those who called him Cashly Cole, even though the club reneged on a deal that he accepted, which was less than Chelsea were offering shows where people should only offer opinions when they know all the facts. This is very interesting just to pause on this briefly, because we don't know when we know all the facts or. Or when we don't know all the facts. We just react to the information that we've been given. And I think there's a lot for us, for us to learn, but there's also a lot for. For. For sport, for media, for news to learn that if you don't tell us all the facts all the time, then we are going to create our own narrative around something and it will not necessarily be the right one. So the more information you can give people, the better. Just as we've spoken about with Norwich City, just as we've spoken about with Dressing Rooms with Tim Crawl, you need to give people the information in this world.

Damian Hughes (36:53)

Yeah, I heard that. And I'd be interested in Ashley Cole's view on it. Do You. Because obviously, I mean, this salary is personal to him, but the fact that he. That he never went public with it, you know, he wrote that book, didn't he, where he talks about he was so angry that he nearly drove his car off the road. And the narrative was that he was complaining about 50 grand a week or whatever the figure was, and people just went, oh, how out of touch is it? But the point he was talking about was he'd been. He'd been. He'd been misled, and that was where his real anger came from, not the amount of money and what I'd be interested in getting, his view of whether he would have wanted to have made it public a lot earlier and maybe change that narrative around it.

Jake (37:35)

Yeah, but I think Ashley's had the opportunity, hasn't he? I mean, we've invited him onto high performance so many times, I think. But also, I think some people just don't want to do that stuff. They don't want to do the public stuff. And that's also okay, isn't it?

Damian Hughes (37:46)

Like, oh, I love it. I know. Like, in the England setup, I know that Lee Carsley had him in there as an assistant and his reputation sky high within the world that he obviously wants to impress. You know, like, young players revere him. He's still got that sort of incredible credibility from and from a playing career. But I believe as a coach as well, I haven't seen him on the field. I've met him around that setup, but he's not the. He's not the character that the media, I think, would have you believe from his playing career. So, yeah, maybe he's not interested in trying to correct perceptions from people he doesn't care about. And I actually really admire that.

Jake (38:32)

Me, too. Right. Let's talk about some other stuff that's been going on this week. Can I make a case for why I think Kimi Antonelli might be the Formula one World Champion season? Damian.

Damian Hughes (38:41)

Well, I was thinking about it yesterday morning. I was wondering what you would make of this, so I want to hear your views.

Jake (38:49)

Okay, so the first thing is that Obviously Kimmy is 19, right? So he's the second youngest race winner in Formula one history. That's. That's the reason to be excited about him. The fact that he did it from pole position, the fact that he briefly lost the lead at the start of the race to the legendary Lewis Hamilton, then reclaimed it almost immediately, and then he managed the race like a veteran, means that this wasn't like a chaotic win that he lucked into. It wasn't like rain. That just meant other people pitted and they got the wrong tyres on. Then he kind of somehow slid through. It was about control, which I think is so rare for someone that young. So what jumped out to me about this race win was composure rather than just speed, which as we know is a real high performance trait. Right. David Coulthard told us, you know, he could be fast on his day, but under the pressure of a Grand Prix was when he didn't have the spare capacity, as he called it, to also deliver the win. I think if you were watching the sprint race the day before where he had a bad start, slipped back, ended up having contact with Isaac Hajar and getting himself into a world of trouble, he would have known the pressure that was on his shoulders at the start of that Grand Prix. So the second thing which is, or the second reason why I think he can be a World Champion, I think he will be a world Champion, is that he stepped into a seat vacated by Lewis Hamilton. I think there is a good case that there is no more highly pressured position in modern Formula One than to replace a seven time world champion driving for a championship winning team. Being called a generational talent before your first race by Toto Wolff, which obviously his big gamble has been validated. But I think again, the real story that we're talking about here isn't the win, it's the psychological resilience that he showed to survive the expectation curve when he first came in to deal with some really difficult results last season, to feel under pressure and then to. And then to deliver when he knows he needs to. I think his rise is another reason why he might be a World champion. I think even for Formula one, his rise is pretty abnormal. I mean, he dominated karting. That's pretty normal.

Damian Hughes (40:47)

Well, I was going to ask you that, if you don't mind me just jumping in there, Jake, like, what's the hinterland like, what's the backstory to him? So we're seeing him now sat in this, in this driver's seat, but what's his story that goes before it?

Jake (41:01)

So what often happens is they, you know, you do well at karting and that's very common in Formula one, and then you move up to like Italian or ADAC Formula 4 titles, which is a good proving ground for a young driver. Pretty much everyone on the grid has raced in that. And then you've got Formula 3 and Formula 2 and those are like really important opportunities to just sort of slowly improve. What we saw with Kimi Antonelli, which was really interesting, was that he dominated in karting. He won the Italian and the ADHC Formula 4 titles. Then he was then skipped entirely from Formula 3, went straight into Formula 2, and then after a season in Formula 2, straight into Formula 1. I mean, it's not dissimilar, right, to a footballer being promoted from the academy into the Champions League final and deliver. It's that kind of a. It's that kind of a level. And I think sometimes when you have an elite system like Mercedes have, maybe they recognize talent faster than the traditional method that we all have, which is, oh, you have to sort of slowly move forwards.

Damian Hughes (42:01)

But what jumps out to me there, though, is, like, where's he made his mistakes? Because as a. As a young athlete, like, you almost need to make a few errors in. In a relatively safe environment. So. And it sounds like he's had a career of winning, winning, winning. So where have his mistakes been made? Do we know?

Jake (42:20)

Yeah. Well, I think actually the mistakes are probably part of what makes this story so compelling. So at the very start of his Formula one journey, right before it was confirmed that he was replacing Lewis Hamilton, Mercedes put him in the car for free practice one. So for people that aren't into Formula one, each race weekend, unless it's a sprint weekend, you get free practice 1, 2, and 3. So it's three hours behind the wheel of the car. He went into FP1, which is where one of the race drivers gives up their car to a younger driver. And the number one rule really is this is your chance to impress. Keep the car on the black stuff, like, do not bin the car. Keep it on the tarmac.

Damian Hughes (42:57)

Yeah,

Jake (43:00)

and he crashed the car. He pushed aggressively on a qualifying simulation lap and he crashed. Right. It happened in front of an Italian crowd. I think it was reminded him really early on that the line in Formula one between success and failure is huge. And then there was all this hype around him, and suddenly it kind of. It kind of met reality, basically. But I love the fact that he wanted to explore the limit too quickly because he's. He's wired to do it right. And in some ways, the first thing that an elite driver should do in Formula one is crash, right? Because they're. They're almost like mapping out the edge of their performance. Then last season, there was a bit of over aggression. He was. He was pushing too hard on cold tires quite often. He was a sort of attacking overtakes that weren't fully on. He was burning tires out too quickly in stints and you know, when we, when you speak to, you know, Ollie Bearman, who said he couldn't put a race weekend together, you know, little things like being able to control tire temperature that most of the world don't see is absolutely vital. And in some ways he's had to kind of learn when not to use his talent, right. He's had to learn when not to go for the overtake, when not to push to the absolute limits. But actually his qualifying pace right from the, right from the very start was, was, was perfection. So he has made his mistakes. The next thing after this kind of fast track, I guess is I love the fact that he was crying after this win, that kind of emotional release. He said it was a dream fulfilled. He was in tears in China last weekend. And again, I think that is really impressive because these drivers are conditioned to be hyper controlled. Right. And I think actually that was like

Damian Hughes (44:37)

Fernando Alonso telling us about being the robot, wasn't it?

Jake (44:39)

Exactly, exactly. And I think that what we saw when those tears were coming out was how much internal pressure he was carrying. I think the next reason why I'm so impressed with him is if we go back to last season, McLaren had a title winning car. Norris and Piastri knew that. And it was a proper battle because you don't know whether you're ever going to get one again. And now suddenly we've got, in your second season in Formula one, a car that can win the title. You've got a teammate in George Russell who going into that race was leading the championship. He's a veteran driver in that team. He's been there for quite a few seasons. And I think this is very interesting in kind of an inter team rivalry, like a center Prost, Hamilton Rosberg type rivalry. And I think, I think the final thing which is, which is really interesting from my perspective is, is the psychological safety that he's been given by Toto Wolff. You know, he's. Toto has bat Kimi Antonella. Years before he reached Formula One, he joined the Mercedes junior program. Damien at 12 years old. So this is like a decade of belief that he's had from that team. And as you know, because you've seen it many times, great performers often succeed because someone sees something early in them and then invest in them long before the world is excited about them. And I think that I know only a handful of drivers over the years have been contenders for an F1 title at 19 years of age, but I do think this guy can do it. And there was a real lovely, there was a lovely sort of paradox of elite performance at the end of that race when he said he thought he was going to have a heart attack from the tension. And I think it's a good reminder for us that there's this calm exterior whilst there's internal chaos. And I think he's honest, I think he's fast. I think he has the support of the team. I think he's dealt with so many challenges, and I think he's ready to be a world champion. Wow.

Damian Hughes (46:23)

What a prediction.

Jake (46:25)

There we go.

Damian Hughes (46:26)

Well, the bit that jumped out for me there was, you know, when you said about impressing that car, and it reminds me of, like, I remember going years ago to watch the CEO of ge, a guy called Jack Welch, talking, and he was talking about one of the greatest moments in his life was when he blew up a factory. And he went to his boss, anticipated his boss was going to kick him out. And his boss was like, I've just paid you to make the most. The most expensive mistake you will ever make in your life. And he went, so why would attack you? You're now so much smarter on the back of it. So the fact that Kimmy sort of made that error when he was pushing the car to its limits and doing what wasn't expected. He imagine total wolf there going, I've just paid you to. To make the most expensive mistake that you're gonna make, that when I get you in that driver's seat, you're gonna be so much smarter Than what? Than what somebody of your equivalent age would be. I'm gonna.

Jake (47:24)

I'm gonna.

Damian Hughes (47:25)

I'm not a betting man, but if I was, I would be taking your words to heart and considering looking at putting a few quid on him.

Jake (47:33)

Okay. All right. Well, don't. Don't bet on my behalf. As you know, I hate it. But, yes, I would recommend that someone considers him for the world title this season or next. What do you want to talk about, Damien? What's caught your eye in the last week or two?

Damian Hughes (47:47)

I'm not a big one for watching telly, but I ended up finding myself utterly, utterly absorbed by man on the Run, the new documentary that's come out about Paul McCartney. Have you seen it?

Jake (47:59)

No. Tell me.

Damian Hughes (48:00)

It's brilliant. It basically follows what happened when he leaves the Beatles, and it follows that pretty much 10 years of leaving the Beatles in 1969, up until John Lennon's death in 1980, and how he retreats with his family to the Mall of Kintyre up in Scotland, and then Reinvents himself as the leader of Wings. It's brilliant. It's a great. I remember thinking about Paul McCartney that like, if you think of him and compared to Ringo Starr, Ringo Starr would describe himself as. As a guy who was once in the Beatles, whereas Paul McCartney would describe himself as a musician who was once in the Beatles. And it's that idea that he continues to be a musician long after the Beatles has finished. You know, he gets a. He gets a band together that includes his wife Linda in it, and then they hire a bus and they drive around university towns in, in England and turn up on the day and say, we're happy to come and play a gig for you this evening. And it's 50p to get in and they collect the money in, in buckets and then they just go and start jamming on stage. And as they do that, they get better and better until towards the end of the decade, they become one of the biggest bands in the world. And it's all from a guy that just loves his craft. You know, it goes back to doing what he's passionate about, which is just playing music with other musicians. Until he saw and. And then the success is almost a byproduct of his passion to just keep reinventing himself and expressing himself. It's brilliant. It's a great example of a man that has understood his purpose, understood what his strength is, and then just has the courage to go out there and, and explore the limits of it.

Jake (49:53)

And also someone that realizes that they are, you know, a person that is in a band rather than a musician, as you say. I think that's the. That's interesting. It's like walking away from what your identity is, is one thing. When your identity is as big as the Beatles, the greatest and biggest band in the world at that time. It's a fascinating insight. How can we get Sir Paul McCartney onto high performance?

Damian Hughes (50:14)

Well, when we tried a few years ago when we first started and Alex had some contact with him and they actually approached him. I still remember this, your old manager.

Jake (50:29)

Oh, yeah, Alex McGuire. Yeah, you're right.

Damian Hughes (50:33)

Alex approached him and we got a message back that McCartney didn't do podcasts. So, yeah, it'd be brilliant to explore, like the bit that you like. Why I reckon you should watch it is because, like, you've often spoke about the importance of family. And in his case, as he leaves the Beatles and he marries Linda, he becomes a family man for the first time, starts having children, he adopts Linda's daughter and he integrates all of them into his life. So he gets a tour bus and they go on Europe and all his, his little kids are on there with him. So he's not a man that compromised his family to be a musician. He incorporates them into, into his existence. Watch it. Honestly, I think you'll really enjoy it.

Jake (51:17)

I'm going to talk very briefly about the Gordon Ramsay documentary which on Netflix being Gordon Ramsay. Let's just play a really quick line from him when he joined us on High Performance because I think it's really relevant to this part of the, this part of the episode. Here he is.

Damian Hughes (51:30)

High performance for me is the double edged sword. It's dangerous. Very, very few make it. And then when you're on that edge, you, you understand the consequences when you can't get a high performance. So certain issues with perfection, it's hard to sort of congregate your mind on a daily basis. But High Performance is about relentlessness in my mind.

Jake (52:02)

Certain issues with perfection. If anyone has seen this recent documentary with Gordon Ramsay. Have you seen it? Damo.

Damian Hughes (52:08)

I've seen bits of it, yeah.

Jake (52:09)

Have you got Netflix?

Damian Hughes (52:11)

Yeah, yeah.

Jake (52:12)

Watch it. Just give it a bit of your time because it's a, it's the perfect encapsulation of what high performance actually is. High performance can see you achieving great things, but it doesn't mean that you feel great achieving those things. Like, here's a guy who I do believe has got some unresolved stuff going on right from his, from his upbringing. And he spoke about that when we had him on the podcast. I just. The reason why I get this sense that it's unresolved is that he's just constantly running, constantly chasing. And I say this is someone who is pretty much the biggest Gordon Ramsay fan going like, I love what he's created with his restaurants, his brand, his media career. But I just kind of watched this documentary and I thought there has to be more than just, than just being relentlessly high achieving. I mean, there's a moment where he finally opens this new restaurant which has pushed him and his family to the limits. And then his manager rings and goes, hi, Gordon, it's 11pm she goes, you can have the rest of the evening off. At 4:30 tomorrow you're on a flight to Washington. And at that point I sort of died a little bit inside. I was like, mate, like, you don't need to be doing this. My message to Gordon will be, you are enough. Like you have done it. And I know it might be fun, but. But why is it fun? Why is the fun in the achievement, you know, why is the fun. Why does the fun have to be linked to doing these huge things? I. I just. As a reminder that high performance doesn't come for free. And I've said this a few times, contentment among people that join us on our show is pretty rare, which is why they keep on pushing and pushing and pushing. So if anyone, you know, hasn't watched it, I really think it's worth watching. I think it's a fascinating insight into. Into a high performance mindset.

Damian Hughes (53:51)

I think the bit I saw was when he spoke about, you know, his brother, that they shared bunk beds.

Jake (53:57)

Yeah.

Damian Hughes (53:58)

And I think the fact that his brother has had challenges with addiction afterwards, I think Gordon, to me, seems to be addicted, but to him, it's the validate the addicted to the adrenaline, addicted to the achievement, to the dopamine hits that comes from his. His successes. But it's almost like a fuck in the road that I think we celebrate one level of addiction.

Jake (54:24)

Yeah.

Damian Hughes (54:25)

But also denigrate those that are challenged with more difficult addictions.

Jake (54:29)

You're right. And you're. And you are totally right, actually. But I think. I think some of his constant push also comes from the fact that he sees his brother in that position and is fearful of that. That could have been him. So it keeps him pushing. Right, we're just about done. A couple of things I want to mention. I mean, surely Damien, the high performer of the week has to be Max Dalman. I mean, the roof blew off the Emirates when he scored that goal. But, you know, it was a combination of things, actually. I thought in that game, it was the way that Arsenal pulled through with two late goals when they're pushing for the. For the title. But Max Dalman, to break the record and become Arsenal's youngest goal scorer in the Premier League. I mean, did you see what Arteta said?

Damian Hughes (55:15)

No.

Jake (55:15)

What if he said as Max Dalman ran through, it felt like 45 seconds. It was building up, building up. I just thought it was great. I just thought, what a moment.

Babbel Advertiser (55:27)

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Damian Hughes (55:28)

I think those moments are pure adrenaline, you know, where. Where you know what the outcome is. I remember working with the team at Wembley once in the Challenge Cup Final, where we were like, there was almost five minutes at the end where we knew we'd won the game. And those kind of pure moments where you know the outcome and you can enjoy it rather than the tension of it. That's what. When I saw that Dalmon goal, I thought, there's a lot of people that would have enjoyed that, that little bubble of perfection, I reckon that could also

Jake (55:58)

be the goal that ignites their push for the title. I think winning that game at this stage with the other results that went their way this weekend with Liverpool and Man City and others, I think I actually feel that they're going to do it.

Damian Hughes (56:12)

Yeah, I do finally think, yeah, yeah. And, but again, I think it's similar to the conversation we were having about Spurs. I think like the narrative, you know, like for spurs it's an adjective, isn't it, that being Spursy has sort of come into the vernacular. I think for Arsenal, this idea of just winning ugly, you know, the criticism of their set piece routines and how they started grinding games out, you just need to win ugly at the moment. And I think that that game of doing it so late on, I think you're right. I think it'll start to help them sort of develop that confidence that'll, that'll propel them over the line now.

Jake (56:54)

I think so. Well, if you want to hear about a man who used to win beautifully, check out Kumar Sangakara's new episode on High Performance. It came out four days ago. He talks about the difference between skill versus identity. It's fascinating.

Damian Hughes (57:09)

I love that. I would advocate anyone that hasn't listened to it that if you're interested in the beauty of sport, I think Kumar really manages to capture. He was like a philosopher as well as a, as well as a cricketing warrior.

Jake (57:24)

It's available now wherever you get your podcasts. Damien, have a great week and we'll catch up again next Wednesday.

Damian Hughes (57:30)

Yeah, looking forward to it. Thanks again, Jake. Good to see you. And I shall be going and exploring Kimmy Antonelli in more detail.

Jake (57:38)

Please do. You will like what you find. Have a good one.

Damian Hughes (57:40)

Cheers, mate.

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