The History of Literature Podcast
Episode: 661 James Baldwin (with Colm Tóibín)
Host: Jack Wilson
Guest: Colm Tóibín
Release Date: December 16, 2024
Introduction
In Episode 661 of The History of Literature, host Jack Wilson engages in an insightful conversation with acclaimed Irish novelist and essayist Colm Tóibín. The episode delves deep into the life and works of James Baldwin, exploring Baldwin's literary contributions, personal struggles, and lasting impact on both literature and social movements.
Colm Tóibín's Introduction to James Baldwin
Timestamp: [01:00]
Colm Tóibín shares his first encounter with James Baldwin's work during his adolescence in Dublin. On his 18th birthday, Tóibín purchased Go Tell It on the Mountain without prior knowledge of Baldwin, drawn by a captivating bookshop display. This novel became a turning point, transitioning his reading habit from mere recreation to a profound connection with the protagonist's journey.
“I had no sense of that and I had no sense also of the connection between this book and my own life. It even seemed distant or exotic.” [18:27]
Baldwin's Literary Style and Themes
Timestamp: [16:32]
Tóibín praises Baldwin's ability to intertwine intelligence and accessibility in his prose. Unlike many of his contemporaries, Baldwin's writing is both incisive and highly readable, avoiding the pitfalls of overwriting. This unique style allows readers to remain engaged without feeling left behind.
“He captures a kind of intelligence and incisiveness and conveys it with powerful dramatic prose. And in what is rare for a thinker with his depth, he conveys his thoughts in a style that's highly readable.” [01:42]
Exploration of Religion and Identity
Timestamp: [22:25]
Drawing parallels between Baldwin's Go Tell It on the Mountain and James Joyce's Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, Tóibín highlights Baldwin's nuanced portrayal of religion and personal identity. Baldwin's protagonist, John Grimes, embodies a watchful and introspective nature, contrasting with Joyce's more prideful Stephen Dedalus.
“John Grimes in Baldwin's book doesn't have this pride. He has a sort of funny watchfulness, a funny strange intelligence that stands back.” [22:38]
Baldwin's Migration and Its Influence
Timestamp: [23:48]
Tóibín discusses Baldwin's migration from Harlem to Paris, emphasizing how this move mirrors the complexities of navigating multiple identities. Unlike other American essayists like Norman Mailer or Joan Didion, Baldwin's experience as an African American in a changing society provided a unique lens through which he addressed universal questions of love, identity, and societal change.
“Baldwin's a really great example. I mean, I suppose the other one would be someone like Norman Mailer or someone like Joan Didion.” [26:02]
Baldwin's Evolution as a Writer
Timestamp: [25:28]
The conversation transitions to Baldwin's literary evolution, from his early novels to his essays and public performances. Tóibín appreciates Baldwin's strategic departure from themes that defined his initial fame, venturing into new territories that challenged both himself and his audience.
“What was interesting for me was watching an artist deciding almost strategically to move away from what he was famous for and best known for, to see if there was anything else that interested him more.” [26:33]
Impact of Baldwin's Public Persona
Timestamp: [36:04]
Baldwin's adeptness with public speaking and television performances is lauded by Tóibín. Despite not having formal training, Baldwin mastered the medium, using it to amplify his messages with eloquence and passion. This dual identity as both a writer and a public intellectual enriched his literary work, infusing it with the dynamism of his public engagements.
“He just knew when television lights were on, how to look, how to sound and what to say.” [35:26]
Influence of Henry James and James Joyce
Timestamp: [42:09]
Tóibín draws connections between Baldwin and literary giants Henry James and James Joyce. He notes Baldwin's admiration for James, particularly in crafting nuanced, complex sentences that reflect a deep understanding of human psychology and societal intricacies.
“The way he puts it together, though, is very gripping. You don't get the sense that he's talking down to you.” [33:08]
Baldwin's Personal Struggles and Public Image
Timestamp: [46:03]
Addressing Baldwin's personal life, Tóibín reflects on the challenges Baldwin faced balancing his private life with his public persona. Despite his vibrant public presence, Baldwin grappled with solitude and the pressures of being a prominent black intellectual in America.
“What's most interesting about him is that he was a cat. And he was really taking years, like 1963.” [50:58]
Baldwin's Humor and Wit
Timestamp: [52:04]
Tóibín highlights Baldwin's sharp wit and humor, which he seamlessly integrated into his public appearances and written work. This aspect of Baldwin made him a compelling figure, both as a serious thinker and as an engaging conversationalist.
“He had this way of making it sound both complex and true. And that was his great gift.” [53:43]
Baldwin's Legacy and Influence on Tóibín
Timestamp: [55:02]
Concluding the discussion, Tóibín shares how Baldwin's multifaceted identity and unwavering commitment to truth have influenced his own writing. Baldwin's ability to navigate complex societal issues while maintaining personal authenticity serves as an inspiration for Tóibín's literary endeavors.
“For anyone who's gay, for anyone that's from a closed community or a very sort of rigorous religious society, his example of how to maneuver, how to navigate, and how to, in a way, soar above all that, but also be rooted in it.” [55:14]
Conclusion
Throughout the episode, The History of Literature offers a profound exploration of James Baldwin's literary genius and his enduring relevance. Colm Tóibín's reflections provide listeners with a deeper understanding of Baldwin's work, his stylistic innovations, and his role as a pivotal figure in both literature and social discourse.
Notable Quotes:
- “He captures a kind of intelligence and incisiveness and conveys it with powerful dramatic prose.” — Jack Wilson [01:42]
- “John Grimes in Baldwin's book doesn't have this pride. He has a sort of funny watchfulness.” — Colm Tóibín [22:38]
- “He just knew when television lights were on, how to look, how to sound and what to say.” — Colm Tóibín [35:26]
- “He had this way of making it sound both complex and true. And that was his great gift.” — Colm Tóibín [53:43]
Looking Ahead
Jack Wilson wraps up the episode by thanking listeners and promoting upcoming topics, including Black American Women writers of the 20th century and James Joyce's The Dead. He also encourages listeners to explore Colm Tóibín's book, On James Baldwin, as a companion to the episode.
Find out more about The History of Literature at historyofliterature.com and follow them on Facebook. Support the show via Patreon or Donate. For inquiries, contact historyofliteraturepodcast@gmail.com.