Podcast Summary: The History of Literature – Episode 750

Episode Title: "A Farewell to Arms by Ernest Hemingway (with Mark Cirino) | Joyce Carol Oates vs the Trillionaire | My Last Book with Ken Krimstein"
Date: November 17, 2025
Host: Jacke Wilson
Main Guests: Mark Cirino (Hemingway scholar), Ken Krimstein (graphic biographer)

Episode Overview

This special 750th episode of The History of Literature is a multi-segment literary exploration with host Jacke Wilson. The episode opens with a timely cultural dust-up between Joyce Carol Oates and the world’s richest man, pivots to an extensive deep dive into Ernest Hemingway’s A Farewell to Arms with expert Mark Cirino, and wraps with a whimsical but thoughtful interview with graphic novelist Ken Krimstein about the book he’d choose as his last read. The through-lines of the episode are the transformative power of literature, the challenges and rewards of honest writing, and the enduring resonance of classic novels.

Segment 1: Joyce Carol Oates vs. The Trillionaire (00:41–15:45)

Discussion Points & Insights

• Jacke introduces an online conflict: Joyce Carol Oates criticized the social media presence of "the richest man in the world" (unnamed, but clearly Elon Musk), noting his lack of joy or appreciation for everyday things beloved by many.
• Joyce Carol Oates’s background:
  • Prolific author—58 novels, countless stories, plays, nonfiction.
  • Noted for her productivity, intensity, and focus on violence and darkness, informed by her own family history and literary influences.
  • Described as “vacuum-like” at dinner parties, absorbing stories and details.
  • Inspired by writers like Faulkner, the Brontës, Dostoevsky, Hemingway, Kafka, and Plath.
• Her view of the billionaire (Oates’s tweet, read by Jacke) [~08:40]:

  “So curious that such a wealthy man never posts anything that indicates that he enjoys or is even aware of what virtually everyone appreciates: scenes from nature, pet dog or cat, praise for a movie, music, a book... In fact, he seems totally uneducated, uncultured. The poorest persons on Twitter may have access to more beauty and meaning in life than the most wealthy person in the world.”

• Billionaire’s response (reported by Jacke):

  “Oates is a liar and delights in being mean, not a good human.” [~13:22]

• Jacke’s reflection:
  The exchange is ultimately a reminder that meaning, beauty, and pleasure in everyday life are accessible without wealth. Oates’s lists of joys—history, sports, friends, literature—are paths to flourishing, regardless of material resources. Jacke transitions this theme of simple pleasures into the discussion of Hemingway, whose works are full of appreciation for “the pleasures of life and pleasures can be something simple.”

Segment 2: Deep Dive—A Farewell to Arms with Mark Cirino (15:45–78:10)

Introduction & Guest Recap (16:05–17:01)

• Jacke and Mark reminisce:
  Mark’s previous appearances on the show (episodes 432, 473, 627), all focused on Hemingway’s works; Mark notes “maybe it’s because I’ve made such an impact” (16:39)
• Jacke sets up the discussion:
  Hemingway’s early traumatic experiences in Italy—wounded at 18, falls in love with nurse Agnes von Kurowski.

Hemingway’s Defining Traumas (17:49–20:10)

• Mark Cirino:

  “First trauma and the most celebrated one is when he’s blown up in World War I in Italy... severely wounded in his legs. He then goes to a Milan hospital to recuperate, and he falls in love with the war nurse, Agnes von Kurowski...” (17:51)

• Second trauma:

  “She dumps him in a Dear John, a brutal Dear John letter in March 1919. And I actually count that as a second trauma.” (19:17)

• Impact: Hemingway spent the 1920s trying to write about these events, culminating in A Farewell to Arms.

Love and War—Novel Structure and Themes (20:10–23:07)

• Interplay of love and war:

  “He really toggles between one and the other. But the genius is that while he’s at war, he’s thinking about Catherine. When he’s with Catherine, war is in the background...” (20:28, Mark)

• Both leads are shaped by trauma:
  Catherine lost her fiancé at the Battle of the Somme, entering the novel “almost with a psychic crack.” (22:45)

Hemingway’s Style & Realism (23:07–36:09)

• De-romanticizing war:
  “He had Frederick in the most ridiculous, unheroic situation… because part of what Hemingway is trying to do with this novel is take away that kind of cliched heroism...” (25:15, Mark)
  • Anecdote: Frederick wounded by mortar while “eating cheese”; refuses to manufacture heroics for a medal.
• Most famous passage:

  “I was always embarrassed by the words sacred, glorious, and sacrifice and the expression in vain.” (28:04, Mark) Hemingway’s aim: “It’s a new war and it takes a new language to describe it.”

• Iceberg theory:

  “You don’t have to tell the reader how traumatic it was… All you have to do is state the facts, and the reader will supply the rest.” (29:17, Mark)

• Contrast with Fitzgerald:
  Jacke compares Hemingway’s plain prose to Fitzgerald’s lyrical style—“Hemingway is relying on words like the moon was bright… just basic things that will kind of get Hemingway out of the way.” (32:43, Jacke)
  • Mark: “Fitzgerald is a lyrical writer... but you would never find that in a Hemingway novel.” (34:21)

The Audiobook Experience (35:03–36:53)

• Jacke: Experienced the novel differently via John Slattery’s narration, which highlighted character voices, especially minor ones.

Literary Side Characters & Episodic Structure (43:11–50:45)

• The outsider experience:
  • Hemingway’s American protagonists often serve with foreign armies (Jake Barnes, Robert Jordan).
  • Mark discusses a comic but tense train-seat scenario—“It’s almost like all of World War I is compressed into this mano a mano over a seat on a train.” (45:02-46:08)
• Hemingway’s thrill in cataloguing places and details:
  “His character almost like a cartographer. He knows so much about Italian geography and even Swiss geography, he knows so much. So he is a man in the know.” (47:42, Mark)
• Language and belonging:
  • Frederick Henry’s accent marks him as an outsider.
  • Ralph Simmons, the opera singer: “He wants to be an opera singer. He’s an American, so he can’t pronounce the Italian words to the satisfaction of true Italian opera audiences...” (49:09, Mark)
• Notable comic moment: The “we’re all cooked” refrain, repeated 12 times. F. Scott Fitzgerald advised Hemingway it wasn’t funny, to which Hemingway responded “kiss my ass.” (50:45, Mark & Jacke)

Catherine Barkley—A Controversial Character (51:58–64:37)

• Polarizing critical reception:
  • Mark: “I think she is the most controversial character in all of Hemingway... anything from a doormat to a heroine.” (52:16)
  • Cites Judith Fetterley’s scathing feminist critique vs. Sandy Spires’s interpretation of Catherine as a “Hemingway code hero.”
• Jacke’s take:
  “You wonder sometimes what does she even see in him. We know why he loves her, but why is she so suddenly attached to him?”
  • Acknowledges the problematic aspects, especially during childbirth scenes where Catherine nearly disappears as a character, becoming voiceless.
• Honest, unsentimental portrayal of love:
  • Hemingway’s thesis: “Every relationship, one person is going to end up mourning the other. There’s no happy ending.” (64:21–64:24, Mark)
  • Jacke: “It’s just the way things go... so there is no happy ending.”

The Bleak Power of the Novel’s End (65:04–73:28)

• Randomness of loss:
  Mark ties Hemingway’s experience of war trauma and personal losses (father’s suicide, wife’s traumatic childbirth) into the novel’s worldview:

  “Sometimes, unfortunately, that is a facet of life as we don't know when it's going to be the end.” (66:47)

• Is it Hemingway’s most appealing work?
  Jacke ponders whether A Farewell to Arms is Hemingway’s best introduction for new readers.
  • Mark: “It’s tough. It demands a lot of the reader... maybe The Sun Also Rises is more rereadable.” (67:55–68:29)
• The “ants on the log” parable:
  • A striking metaphor for the randomness of survival and death in war and life. (68:52)
• Chilling final sentence:

  “It was like saying goodbye to a statue.” (70:06, Jacke)

  • Debate over Frederick’s final actions and emotional state; the sense of emptiness and irrevocable loss.
• Great American Novel?
  Mark notes it’s “not disqualifying” for the great American novel to take place abroad—with international settings enhancing its universality. (72:54–73:28)

Notable Quotes

• On Hemingway’s method:

  “State the facts, and the reader will supply the rest. The reader will collaborate in the meaning.” (29:17, Mark Cirino)

• On love and loss:

  “Remember, he says in Death in the Afternoon... every relationship, one person is going to end up mourning the other.” (64:21, Mark Cirino)

• On the book’s conclusion:

  “It was like saying goodbye to a statue.” (70:06, Jacke Wilson quoting Hemingway)

Segment 3: My Last Book with Ken Krimstein (80:15–88:15)

Discussion Points & Insights

• Ken Krimstein’s pick:
  • Initially jokes about choosing “the longest book ever written.”
  • Earnest choice: Kim by Rudyard Kipling.
    • Praises it as a novel about East and West, courage, adventure, spirituality, and how to cope with endings.
    • Acknowledges Kipling as a “problematic” author but admires the book’s artistry and complexity.
    • Fantasizes about a lost graphic novel collaboration between Borges and Herriman of Krazy Kat fame.
• On Kipling’s style and reputation:

  “He has a very, very dark side... But in this type of [commercial] writing, it doesn’t tell you what to think. You feel it.” (84:11)

  • Discusses Kipling’s empathy for outsiders over colonialists.
• Jacke reflects:
  Readers can both reject the outdated or offensive elements and still appreciate the depth and emotional resonance of the work.

  “We’re grown ups now and we can read things… it’s easy to kind of use that and say, well, I’m glad we don’t think that way anymore.” (86:28)

• Ken cites poet Randall Jarrell’s admiration for Kipling as literary validation.

Notable Moments

• “Boy, if they could find that [Borges-Herriman] one and republish it, I would read it.” (approx 82:01)
• “I’m usually so private about Kipling. I’ll probably be canceled now…” (87:08, Ken, self-aware tone)

Key Timestamps

• 00:41–15:45: Joyce Carol Oates vs. the Trillionaire & Reflection on Literary Access to Meaning/Life
• 16:05–78:10: In-depth A Farewell to Arms discussion with Mark Cirino
  • 17:49–20:10: Hemingway’s traumas and genesis of the novel
  • 23:07–36:53: Hemingway’s style; language of realism
  • 51:58–64:37: Catherine Barkley and controversy
  • 65:04–73:28: The bleak ending and universal themes
• 80:15–88:15: Ken Krimstein’s “My Last Book” conversation

Tone and Style Notes

• Jacke Wilson’s narration is warm, conversational, and exploratory, blending literary enthusiasm with self-deprecating humor.
• Mark Cirino brings academic expertise but keeps the discussion lively and accessible.
• The show balances intellectual rigor with approachability—never too dense, but always respectful to the text.

Conclusion

This episode is a celebration of literary depth: offering listeners a fresh look at a Hemingway classic, contextualized by the author’s life and the book’s modern resonance, backed by expert analysis and animated by Jacke’s personal reflections. The show succeeds in making both the known and the new feel relevant—and, as highlighted in all segments, literature remains a powerful compass for navigating both life’s beauty and its darkness.

For Readers Looking to Dive Deeper:

• Read (or re-read) A Farewell to Arms—perhaps with Mark Cirino’s new Norton Library edition.
• Compare Hemingway’s understated style to Fitzgerald’s lyricism, as discussed.
• Consider Oates’s inventory of everyday joys as a guide to finding meaning—no matter your station in life.
• And for those seeking a long, immersive journey: consider Kim for your own "last book."