753 Tenth-Anniversary Special (with Mike Palindrome and Laurie Frankel) | Giving Thanks | My Last Book with Eve Dunbar

Summary

---

The History of Literature Podcast

Episode 753: Tenth-Anniversary Special (with Mike Palindrome and Laurie Frankel) | Giving Thanks | My Last Book with Eve Dunbar
Date: November 26, 2025
Host: Jacke Wilson
Guests: Mike Palindrome, Laurie Frankel, Eve Dunbar

---

Episode Overview

This special 10th-anniversary edition of "The History of Literature" celebrates a decade of literary exploration, gratitude, and community. Host Jacke Wilson is joined by regular guests Laurie Frankel and Mike Palindrome for an in-depth conversation on the literary landscape of 1965–1975—now newly eligible for podcast coverage as the show’s arbitrary "50-year rule" shifts forward. The episode mixes personal anecdotes, a spirited discussion of influential books from the period, reflections on the cultural context, and a special segment with Eve Dunbar on her "last book" choice.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The 10-Year Rule and Shifting Literary Horizons

[03:00–07:30]

• Jacke reflects on his self-imposed rule: only covering books at least 50 years old to ensure historical perspective.
• With the podcast’s 10th birthday, this rule moves the eligibility window from 1965 to 1975. Books and authors previously excluded are now fair game.
• "[It] occurred to me that... now it's moved up to 1975, 50 years ago from today. And so because I like to find fun topics when I have Laurie and Mike here... I asked them to pitch me on a few of their favorite books from that period." (Jacke, 04:27)

2. Thanksgiving Traditions

[08:46–13:22]

• Laurie, a vegetarian, hosts both brunch and dinner for 20+ people in Seattle, featuring creative dishes like squash galettes and overnight French toast.
• Mike breaks from his usual Manhattan Thanksgiving to celebrate in Connecticut at a German restaurant, watching football (Cowboys fan!).
• The conversation lightheartedly touches on family, food, and the "hell of [Laurie's] own making" in hosting two meals.

3. Laurie Frankel and Mike Palindrome — What’s New?

[13:22–18:54]

• Laurie discusses her forthcoming novel "Enormous Wings," about a 77-year-old woman facing an unexpected pregnancy in a retirement community.
• Mike talks about his online slow-reading groups, recent reads ("Anthony Powell’s Dance to the Music of Time," Rachel Cusk, soon: "Sátántangó" and Balzac), and an in-person Infinite Jest group.

4. The Cultural Context: 1965–1975

[20:01–22:59]

• Both guests were born in the early 1970s, so the period holds nostalgic weight as "the books our parents’ generation read."
• Mike notes the era’s "transition between the Stepford Wives period in America in the 50s and... the capitalist Wild West of the 80s" (20:01)—a time of artistic experimentation and social change.
• Laurie observes how music, theater, and film from this decade stay vital, but the books require more conscious rediscovery.

5. Literary Picks from 1965–1975

Each pick segment runs approx. [26:27–66:00]

Laurie's Picks:

• Ragtime by E.L. Doctorow (1975)
  “It's not like anything... Which is sort of a remarkable thing.” (Laurie, 28:21)
  • Celebrated for its unique style and continued relevance; inspired Laurie’s top recommendation of the year.
• Toni Morrison’s Early Novels: Sula (1973), The Bluest Eye
  “They feel to me like the first of their kind... a harbinger of... an enormous culture shift.” (Laurie, 33:22)
  • Early Morrison as groundbreaking, prescient, and deeply influential.
• One Hundred Years of Solitude by Gabriel García Márquez (Spanish 1967; English 1970)
  “It blew my mind the first time I read them in college, and then again… when I read them later.” (Laurie, 54:23)
  • Praised for style, scope, and accessibility.

Mike’s Picks:

• Deliverance by James Dickey (1970)
  “The book is wonderful... beautifully written, entertaining... a thriller.” (Mike, 31:36)
  • Noted for class analysis and poetic prose.
• Flannery O’Connor’s Short Stories and The Complete Stories (1971)
  “Changed the way I viewed writers… didn’t expect her humor, the treatment of religion, and just her take on America.” (Mike, 46:18)
  • Highlighted O’Connor’s unexpected energy, violence, and storytelling prowess.
• A Fan’s Notes by Frederick Exley (1968)
  “So flawed… alcoholism, the relationships… searching for an artist’s path. Way for me to return to Dostoyevsky and existentialism.” (Mike, 60:11)
  • Lauded as a one-hit wonder bridging memoir, fiction, and philosophy.

Additional Notable Mentions:

• William Styron, Philip Roth (Portnoy’s Complaint, 1969), John Fowles, Catherine Ann Porter, Joyce Carol Oates, John Updike, Ursula Le Guin, Seamus Heaney, Cynthia Ozick, John Gardner, Grace Paley.

6. Reflections on Publishing, Memory, and How We Read

[50:36–54:20]

• Discussion of how e-readers and digital culture alter book discovery and memory; physical bookshelves prompt serendipitous rediscovery.
• Jacke laments the loss of shared cultural moments, when “everyone in the country” was reading the same bestseller.

7. Poetry and Children’s Books

[66:49–71:22]

• Mike singles out Seamus Heaney’s poetry and Charlotte’s Web for their lasting emotional resonance.
• Laurie champions Beverly Cleary and Judy Blume—books she cherished and successfully passed on to her child.
• Both fondly recall "Frog and Toad are Friends" as a touchstone for empathy, bureaucracy, and friendship.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On why literature needs time:
  “It’s hard to get that perspective on a book that just came out... I wanted to know what the greatest books have done to large groups of people...” (Jacke, 02:44)
• On the nostalgia of literary eras:
  “It’s an interesting question: what were your parents reading and watching and listening to when they were the age that you are now?” (Laurie, 24:22)
• On the impact of historical fiction:
  “Did the 1920s look different from the mid-1970s than they do from now? ... does historical fiction last longer because it’s supposed to be dated?” (Laurie, 29:21)
• On digitization and literary memory:
  “Because people are reading on e-readers… you’re never going to come upon these books that are 50 years old… they’re not in your house anymore.” (Laurie, 50:39)
• On the communal experience of reading:
  “I love the idea of everybody in the country reading the same book at the same time… It would be very interesting in a different way than we read right now.” (Laurie, 53:57)
• On the emotional power of children’s literature:
  “You’re just never, ever going to get over Charlotte’s Web. Never.” (Laurie, 71:16)

---

Important Timestamps

| Segment | Time | |---------------------------------------------|-----------| | Introduction & 50-Year Rule | 1:06–7:34 | | Thanksgiving Traditions | 8:46–13:22| | Guest Updates (Frankel, Palindrome) | 13:22–18:54| | 1965–1975 in Cultural Context | 20:01–22:59| | Literary Picks Discussion | 26:27–66:00| | Publishing/Reading Reflections | 50:36–54:20| | Poetry/Children’s Books | 66:49–71:22| | Children’s Literature Emotional Impact | 70:35–71:16|

---

Special Segment: "My Last Book" with Eve Dunbar

[73:16–77:11]

• Eve Dunbar chooses Toni Morrison’s Sula as her “last book”—a novel she associates with joy and the fortitude of friendship between Black women.
• “[Sula’s] about resisting norms… conformity actually aren’t going to bring you happiness… friendship is there for us. Sociality… might be the thing that frees us.” (Eve Dunbar, 75:15)
• Morrison’s “sentences are a treat individually unto themselves.” (Eve, 77:00)

---

Gratitude & Closing Reflections

[39:52–46:14]

• Jacke offers a personal meditation on gratitude—thanking listeners, collaborators, and the community for 10 years of support.
• “This is when generosity and enthusiasm and joy and humor need to be pumped into the system… if we the people don’t supply it, then it’s not coming.” (Jacke, 42:06)

---

Tone & Style

The conversation flows with warmth, literary passion, humor, and a sense of nostalgia. Jacke’s approach, and his guests’ contributions, balance affection for the past with an acute awareness of cultural changes and challenges in reading, publishing, and collective memory.

---

In Summary

This episode celebrates both the show's history and the literature of a pivotal decade, offering considered reflections on how we read, remember, and share books. The sprawling, enthusiastic conversation provides new reading lists, historical context, and emotional touchstones for literature lovers—whether they lived through the era or are discovering its treasures anew.

---

Transcript

[Jack Wilson]

The History of Literature Podcast is a.

[Co-host or Producer]

Member of the podglomerate Network and Lit Hub Radio.

[State Farm Advertiser]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast Smart move Being financially savvy Smart move. Another smart move having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans vary by state, coverage options are selected by the customer, availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

[Laurie Frankel]

Every holiday shopper's got a list, but Ross shoppers, you've got a mission like a gift run that turns into a disco, snow globe, throw pillows and PJs for the whole family. Dog included. At Ross Holiday magic isn't about spending more, it's about giving more for less. Ross, work your magic.

[Eve Dunbar]

Foreign.

[Jack Wilson]

Today on the podcast, we celebrate the 10th anniversary of the History of Literature with our old friends Laurie Frankel and Mike Palindrome, who join us for a.

[Co-host or Producer]

Look at some books from just over 50 years ago. All will be explained.

[Jack Wilson]

Plus we look at some reasons for.

[Co-host or Producer]

Gratitude and a My last book with Eve Dunbar.

[Jack Wilson]

It's the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, AKA Cooking.

[Co-host or Producer]

Day, here on the History of Literature.

[Jack Wilson]

Okay, here we go. Welcome to the podcast. I'm Jack Wilson. We'll go straight to our guest today, and then I'll do a little musing in the middle. I want to talk about gratitude in.

[Co-host or Producer]

The year 2025 and gratitude over the past 10 years and for the past 10 years. And this is the episode to do it.

[Jack Wilson]

But let's not make you wait. You might be cooking if you're here in the States, getting ready to host a big feast. Pots on the stove, pans in the oven, and maybe you could use some company.

[Co-host or Producer]

Or maybe you're driving over all the rivers and through all the woods. We are here for you.

[Jack Wilson]

So the podcast turns 10 years old. Last month, I think, was our birthday.

[Co-host or Producer]

And something occurred to me. I've generally kept this rule that all.

[Jack Wilson]

The books and authors and topics we cover on the show should be at least 50 years old.

[Co-host or Producer]

I wasn't looking to do a book chat show with contemporary novels or anything.

[Jack Wilson]

It wasn't a book club. I wanted to know what the greatest.

[Co-host or Producer]

Books have done to large groups of people. How have these books been received? What have they meant?

[Jack Wilson]

And it's hard to get that perspective on a book that just came out.

[Co-host or Producer]

Last week or has not even come out yet.

[Jack Wilson]

I can talk about what the book.

[Co-host or Producer]

Is about and maybe my reaction to.

[Jack Wilson]

It as a reader, but I can't talk about what it meant to readers.

[Co-host or Producer]

Of that era because there haven't been any readers yet.

[Jack Wilson]

So the questions I like to ask.

[Co-host or Producer]

Like, did it fit into its era? Did it stand apart?

[Jack Wilson]

Did it change the course of history? Was it popular in one era and.

[Co-host or Producer]

Then it faded from view and then it came back? And why was it the best book that that author ever wrote or the one that showed us what the author was capable of, the one that predicted the masterpiece?

[Jack Wilson]

All of those are questions that I.

[Co-host or Producer]

Like to explore and they seem worthy of the name History of literature. There's got to be some history in there too. Now, I've made some exceptions to this because life is short and sometimes I get interested in a book that's recent or I have a chance to talk.

[Jack Wilson]

To a contemporary author or something like that, and I think, well, why not? And sometimes there's an author like Saul Bellow or Toni Morrison, and I think we don't need to wait five years to put him or her in the.

[Co-host or Producer]

Hall of fame, or in this case, 50 years. My somewhat arbitrary cutoff point, Knaus Guard.

[Jack Wilson]

I think, is he's did an episode on him, did an episode on a lot of short stories and so on.

[Co-host or Producer]

But anyway, setting all that aside, I have the 50 year mark in my mind. Let some history pass before we talk about the history.

[Jack Wilson]

And it occurred to me that with.

[Co-host or Producer]

A 10 year anniversary of the podcast, there's a decade's worth of books that are eligible now that weren't eligible when I started in 2015. My wall was set way back in 1965, 50 years before 2015. Now it's moved up to 1975, 50 years ago from today. And so because I like to find fun topics when I have Laurie and Mike here for the day before Thanksgiving, I asked them to pitch me on a few of their favorite books from that period. Are there good books from 1965 to 1975 that would make a good topic for a show? Well, what a decade or ten year period that was. In films. We had Godfather 1 and Godfather 2, and the movies changed forever as the studio system gave way to the more independent Easy Rider types. In music, this is the decade of sergeant Pepper and the White Album in Abbey Road and the breakup of the Beatles for that matter, and their solo artist careers launching. In politics we go in America, we go from LBJ to Nixon and Ford, we have the Summer of Love in here we have the sexual revolution, the war in Vietnam flared up and ended in comedy. This was Monty Python, and at the very end, the debut of Saturday Night Live. So things must have been happening in literature too. Yes, yes, definitely. And arguably literature was more central to the culture than it had been, or that it certainly, I think it's easy to argue that is more central to the culture than today. One of the things you'll hear me marvel at is how the best science bestseller list is filled with heavy hitting, powerful literary novels. And for long stretches of time, good books were being read by grownups. So let's bring out Mike and Laurie to suggest some books from that 10 year period. All three of us were born during those years, as it happens. So we were around, but not readers yet. It's really the generation that came just before us. But that means in some ways that we were shaped by what was happening. These were the books that our parents and aunts and uncles and teachers and caregivers. This is what they were reading, discussing and debating as the zeitgeist was influenced by what these novelists and short story writers and essayists and poets were injecting into the zeitgeist and the experience that the adults around us had reading the books and thinking the thoughts and feeling the feels. Literature at its best, shapes us all.

[Jack Wilson]

1965 to 1975 with Mike and Laurie right now. Okay. Joining me now are two of our long standing favorite guests who are here for the annual tradition of the Wednesday Before Thanksgiving episode. First up, Laurie Frankel, whose novels include family, family, 1, 2, 3, and this is How It Always Is. Laurie, welcome back to the History of Literature.

[Laurie Frankel]

Thank you, Jack. I'm so glad to be here.

[Jack Wilson]

And our old friend Mike Palindrome, the president of the Literature Supporters Club and master of flying the friendly skies over at Blue Sky. Mike, welcome back to the History of Literature.

[Mike Palindrome]

Thanks, Jack. Hey, Larry.

[Laurie Frankel]

Hey, Mike.

[Jack Wilson]

So this year marks the 10 year anniversary of the History of Literature podcast. And as I plan to have already explained in the introduction to this, we're moving our wall forward 10 years. So you two are here to help me choose some books from the years 1965 to 1975, and we'll discuss whether these are worthy of reading and discussion on the History of Literature podcast. But before we get to that, let's talk some turkey or the vegetarian equivalent. Laurie, what do you have planned for Thanksgiving this year?

[Laurie Frankel]

The vegetarian equivalent. Yeah, yeah.

[Jack Wilson]

Are you staying in Seattle?

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah, well, yes, I'm staying in Seattle for Thanksgiving. We're gonna do brunch and dinner and then I'M flying back east Friday morning.

[Jack Wilson]

Oh, right. And then when you fly back east, do they. Have they already done their Thanksgiving, or do they hold it off in reserve until you get there?

[Laurie Frankel]

I think probably none of the above. And we're just going to skip the Thanksgiving part. I don't eat turkey.

[Jack Wilson]

Right, right, right, right. So you don't need the big event.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah, right, exactly. It's a good excuse to cook everything.

[Jack Wilson]

Right. Which you would do if it was any day. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah. Bring out the china and that kind of thing.

[Jack Wilson]

What does it mean to do brunch and dinner? You're hosting both of those?

[Laurie Frankel]

Yes. I had this idea that we could do brunch instead of dinner. And when I started inviting. And I have, like, 20 people usually come for Thanksgiving, and so I sort of thought maybe we could do half, you know, spread some people out or some people. My kids started inviting friends who had their own families to be with at night, but who were there for free earlier in the day. Yeah, I don't give a crap about football. So we usually dinner at dinner time, but then all of a sudden, everybody's kind of like, yes, we'd love to come for brunch, but then also we're gonna be hungry later for dinner. And now all of a sudden, I'm cooking. A lot of. It's gonna be. Well, it is a hell of my own making.

[Jack Wilson]

Right. Do you have a particular dish that goes for a big group?

[Laurie Frankel]

Yes. Yeah. So I usually make squash galettes instead of turkey, and I will also make squash soup and all of the sides and the salads and whatever for dinner, and then for breakfast, variety of overnight French toasts and quiches. I don't know. It's going to be an undertaking.

[Jack Wilson]

Oh, boy. Okay. Mike, how about you? You having a Manhattan Thanksgiving?

[Mike Palindrome]

No, for the first time in a while, we're going to. We're leaving the city, going up to Connecticut and going to Austri. German restaurant that we've gone to for years. Has a stunning view of a lake.

[Jack Wilson]

Oh, wow.

[Mike Palindrome]

Surrounded by hills. We'll stay up there for a few days. So.

[Jack Wilson]

Huh. And do they do a traditional Thanksgiving spread?

[Mike Palindrome]

I don't know, because we haven't been there for Thanksgiving. But I usually get. I usually get the wiener schnitzel.

[Jack Wilson]

I was going to say, yeah, you'll probably get some schnitzel or some verst.

[Mike Palindrome]

Yeah. And I am. I'll just reveal here. I don't know if I ever have, but I'm a Cowboys fan. And so this year it's a big game against the Chiefs.

[Jack Wilson]

Right, right. Thanksgiving is a staple for the.

[Mike Palindrome]

For the.

[Jack Wilson]

And actually my packers play this year for Thanksgiving, so I have to navigate that. We're going over to some relatives and I just floated it out there that we wouldn't mind watching the game if that could be arranged. But I always feel bad, you know, because people cook and, you know, you don't want to come in and say, oh, you know, we'll see you later.

[Mike Palindrome]

But is it the early game or the later game?

[Jack Wilson]

I think so. Yeah. They're playing the Lions.

[Mike Palindrome]

Oh, okay. So the later game is much easier because everybody is under the influence of alcohol and tryptophan and you can slink away.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, Connecticut will be a very Thanksgivingy kind of atmosphere with. I'm sure the. The leaves will be on the ground and it'll feel. Seems like a good place to be. But Manhattan must feel that way too. I was wondering if your Manhattan Thanksgivings are kind of like those Woody Allen soirees with men in turtleneck sweaters and sports coats and Michael Caine types coming over. Is that kind of what you usually have?

[Mike Palindrome]

No, not really. It's more like a Mormon Thanksgiving where we have dinner at like 1:30 and then people play wholesome board games and kind of nod off. And then I. Then I. I watch the cowboys out of the corner of my eye.

[Jack Wilson]

Right, right. Okay. So another topic, Laurie, you have a new book coming out in the spring, Enormous Wings.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yes.

[Jack Wilson]

What can you tell us about that?

[Laurie Frankel]

That's a super question. I can tell you anything about that because it is now out of my hands. Just, just really, really, truly, genuinely out of my hands. Into the press, I guess. It comes out May 5th. It feels very, very soon. Should I tell you about. Should I pitch it to you? Should I tell you about.

[Jack Wilson]

Sure, yeah. Unless you don't want to spoil it. Don't give away the ending or anything, but what is it basically about?

[Laurie Frankel]

Yes, what it is basically about. It's about a 77 year old grandma whose adult children put her into a retirement community, forced her to move into a retirement community against her, like, will and better judgment. And to her surprise, she makes friends and she falls in love, but then she gets sick and when she goes to the doctor, she finds out like, the good news is it's not cancer, it's not her heart, it's not high blood pressure, but in fact, she's pregnant.

[Mike Palindrome]

Yeah.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yes.

[Jack Wilson]

You said that like that was opposed to the good news.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yes, well, yes, yes. I had been pitching that as like this was the good news, but this was the bad news. But then it becomes more complicated than bad, I guess in the way of.

[Jack Wilson]

Malhol, the unexpected news.

[Laurie Frankel]

Unexpected news, yes, indeed. That's what it is. Yes.

[Jack Wilson]

Right. Well, that is going to be a fun one. I'm looking forward to when that one comes out. And Mike, what's going on in the world of online reading together? Are you guys going through all of Rachel Cusk's novels?

[Mike Palindrome]

Just the outline trilogy, but we're on book two and it's been a refreshing chaser after reading Anthony Powell's 12 book opus, a Dance to the Music of.

[Eve Dunbar]

Time.

[Mike Palindrome]

Which quite a number of people hung around for that. So I was impressed.

[Jack Wilson]

So you did 12 books, 10 pages a day?

[Mike Palindrome]

Seven to 10.

[Jack Wilson]

Seven to 10 a day?

[Mike Palindrome]

Yeah.

[Laurie Frankel]

So how long did that take?

[Mike Palindrome]

Over a year. Yeah, we did Proust and that took over a year. It might have been a year and a half. Yeah. So we do these slow read, seven pages a day. We encourage kind of a free for all attitude where we have like academics providing lots of criticism and then people also giving their emotional takes and mouthing off. So.

[Jack Wilson]

So what's coming after Rachel Cusk? Do you have anything lined up?

[Mike Palindrome]

I think we're going to do Satan Tango by Laszlo. Never pronounce his name.

[Jack Wilson]

The guy who just won the Nobel.

[Mike Palindrome]

Yeah, yeah. Because it's. I, I come to the realization that I probably don't need to buy any books for the rest of my life. So I have Satan Tango on my shelf. It's been there for 15 years and I was like, I gotta read it. So we're gonna do that and then we're gonna read a couple of Balzac books. There's been a lot of shout outs for Balzac in my group.

[Jack Wilson]

I'm surprised you guys don't commit to the entire comedy.

[Mike Palindrome]

Yeah, it's like 40 books, I think. The Human comedy.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah. The way you guys do it, that'll be. Just start with the first one and stop when you finish the last.

[Mike Palindrome]

Yeah.

[Laurie Frankel]

Do most of the people in this group, they're reading other books as well as you do? Yeah, I think it was this time last year that you blew my mind by saying you're reading 17 books at a time and.

[Mike Palindrome]

Yeah, that's why, that's why we do 7 to 10. Because I think a lot of book clubs, they do like some book clubs do 100 pages a week or 20 pages a day. It's hard to do that. And, you know, raise a family, see friends, pay the rent, you know, But I think seven pages, you could almost do seven pages. You could do seven pages for the rest of your life. And it's very doable.

[Co-host or Producer]

Yeah.

[Jack Wilson]

You've had in the past, I don't know if you still do that, but when you were on Twitter, you would be in more than one of these at once. Yeah.

[Mike Palindrome]

We used to do a long read alongside a classical work. Like we read Herodotus histories and we read the new translation of the Iliad. Emily Wilson, I always want to say Emily Watson. Emily Wilson. Yeah. So we would alternate, but even that got a little burdensome because I'm also in an in person book club and right now rereading Infinite jest with the McNally Jackson bookstore, which has been really fun because Sarah McNally, who owns the McNally bookstores in New York, is very well connected. And for one of our meetings, David Foster Wallace's agent and his editor showed up, so we got to chat with them. And it's also my third time reading Infinite Jest. So I think three times is the perfect number for Infinite Jest.

[Jack Wilson]

Right. So speaking of that, as we pivot to our main course here and we are going to start talking about 1965-1975, I was wondering, Mike, in your famous notebook of all the books you've ever read, if you write in the years of publication or anything, were you able to consult that notebook in order to help you find what books you've read between that period or. Or I'm guessing maybe not. That would be kind of an odd thing to write down.

[Mike Palindrome]

I didn't. But just going through the book, the winners of various book prizes during that period, I could see Flannery o' Connor and Bellow and certainly Frederick Exley. And so, yeah, I started to see. I was thinking I was born in 72, so I was kind of too young to really experience 65 to 75. But I know it's a period that I've been a little obsessed with.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah, that's interesting. What's the source of your obsession, do you think?

[Mike Palindrome]

I feel like it's. I'm fascinated by May 1968, the university protest in Paris and that kind of all the different movements that came out of that. And I feel like this period is a real kind of transition between the Stepford Wives period in America in the 50s and into kind of the, the capitalist Wild west of the 80s. It's just a very fascinating period, I think, in literature and in. As we'll get into. And in films it's. We're seeing a lot of style, like a lot of kind of declarations of style to try to mark your ground.

[Jack Wilson]

It is kind of interesting because, you know, we often, you'll watch shows or something and they'll, they'll talk about the 60s and then they talk about the 70s and they break it down in those time periods. But then they'll always kind of say, you know, 1961 is very different from 1969 and 1971 is very different from, you know, 1979, 1980. And it kind of made me think that this period, 65 to 75 in some ways is more coherent as a 10 year period than dividing it by decades. But Laurie, what's your relationship with 1965-1975? Is that a significant period for you?

[Laurie Frankel]

So me too. I was born in 73, so it's a, A little bit before my time. And me too. I write down everything I read and I do put the year, unless it's contemporary, very contemporary, unless it came out say this year or last year. Then I do note that down because it's not really in the interest of completion, but just in the interest of contextualizing, I guess would struck me in just trying to look into this this week, since you asked and you gave us a heads up that this is what you were going to ask is how much more I am still engaged with the plays from that era, the musicals from that era, the music from that era, and not just me, I think most of us than the books per se. So it was not hard to come up with a dozen or so that were wildly important to me. So it was an easy enough question. But, but whereas you look at the music and you're like, okay, well, it's the Beatles as opposed. You know, I look at the Tony Award winners and I think like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. All still in rotation. Books are harder.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah, yeah. I go through periods where I'll watch just about any movie from this era or even from a little bit later. So I was born in 71. And when I watch a film from 1980, I think this is what my parents and their friends were watching. You know, it feels very close. But it was something that I wasn't experiencing at the time, or maybe I sort of knew. I heard people talk about it or I remember an ad for it or something, but. Or seeing it on the Oscars, you know, something like that. But. But it really, it in some ways I'll go through stretches where I want to return to that kind of nostalgia more than I want to return to the nostalgia of my high school and college and early 20s years to. To kind of feel like, oh, yeah, you know, this is. It's kind of exciting to think that this was forming their opinions and something that they might dip into even though my parents weren't big readers. But just to have that be part of the zeitgeist, I feel like I unlock a lot of things about my teachers or about the grownups who were important to me when I was quite small.

[Laurie Frankel]

It's an interesting question of what your parents were reading and watching and listening to when they were the age that you are now.

[Jack Wilson]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. And it's also. It's just hard for me to separate this when I think about these books and think about, oh, we're going to add some of these authors from this period. It's just hard for me to separate it from my childhood and just the small town, Wisconsin, and everything before the Internet and before cable television and just that guys fixing their cars in their driveways and cans of beer with the pop tops and everybody smoking cigarettes and just that whole vibe of things were. It just seems like a simpler time and I don't know it. And I have to say also one of the links I sent around to you guys was the New York Times number one bestsellers. And it is really hard to look at those years and not think people were reading real novels in big numbers. You know, some of these books that we'll talk about that were on the bestseller list, the number one on the bestseller list for months. Months. And you think, I don't know that anybody would. You know, it'd be the way we talk now about people who read poetry or something where it's like, you know, selling in the hundreds of copies. We've just. The culture has just kind of moved on from these. These big, you know, thought provoking novels. But. Okay, so let's do this. I asked if you could recommend some books or authors from this period. It sounds like you both were able to come up with a few. So why don't we jump into. Laurie, do you want to go first? Is there a book or something from 1965 to 1975 that you think is a good candidate for enduring literature?

[Laurie Frankel]

Yes, yes. I actually. Of the questions you have asked us over the Thanksgivings, I thought this was actually a pretty easy one. And owing to nothing but coincidence, I think that Ragtime was the book that I was rec. Last year was the book I most Recommended to people. Had not read it before. Yale Doctorow. It is 19, I think. It's 1975, I think.

[Jack Wilson]

Hold on.

[Laurie Frankel]

I read it down. It's five.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah.

[Laurie Frankel]

1975. I had never read it. It's just up at Lincoln Center. So it's on Broadway at the moment. The musical. They were doing something off Broadway a couple few years ago, and a friend saw it and emailed to say, have you ever seen this? And also, have you ever read this friend from graduate school? So that my answer was very likely to be, oh, yes, of course I've read that. And she hadn't, and I hadn't. And then I sat down and read that. And of course I had. I mean, as Mike says, I have 100 bajillion books. They're all around the house. I owned it. I had just never read it before and sat down and read it and thought, well, and it was my most recommended book. It was the book I recommended to people most last year.

[Jack Wilson]

And it's 50 years old.

[Laurie Frankel]

And it's 50 years old.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah. So it's got quite a distinctive style.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yes. Yes. And it's. The friend who reached out to me had done so because she said, I just sat through this musical and cried through the whole thing. It's very timely, but to the fact that it is so very timely 50 years later is part of what is so heartbreaking about it. But, yes, stylistically, it is also really, really interesting and something that I could not offhand name anything else that I, you know, in recommending it to people, people are saying, like, oh, what is it like? And I was saying, it's not. It's not like anything.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah.

[Laurie Frankel]

Which is sort of a remarkable thing. Even of. Of his canon.

[Jack Wilson]

I can't think of a good comp for it.

[Laurie Frankel]

No. Which is interesting. And it's interesting that then they decided to make a musical about it. There's certainly nothing about it that makes me think, oh, this would be a really good musical. And yet. Well, I haven't seen it yet, but I surely hope to get out there and do so soon enough before it closes.

[Jack Wilson]

So I looked up the years. It's set in New York City between 1902 and 1915, which I do love, because that's the time period we get so much about the Roaring Twenties and other periods. But that's a really interesting period. But also it kind of makes me think, so he probably started writing that book about 55 years after that period, which means we're about as far away from ragtime as he was from the era he was writing about, which is kind of interesting as well.

[Laurie Frankel]

It is. And it did make me wonder, as I looked at the list that I'd made up, whether historical fiction, for lack of a better word, last longer because it's supposed to be dated. And it's a different question. And so then at this point, the question is, did the 1920s look different from the mid-1970s than they do from now? Is a very different question than the one that the book is asking itself, necessarily. And that made me wonder whether opening. As you open this up, whether it's a different question. It's historical fiction versus, you know, contemporary.

[Jack Wilson]

I guess, kind of like when you watch Greece and you're like, this is what the 70s remembered about the 50s.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yes, exactly. Exactly that. Exactly that.

[Jack Wilson]

Well, I always. I mean, this is. That's about the amount of time of war and peace. I always love that. That he was kind of writing about his. His grandparents and his great grandparents when they were, like, the age of the young soldiers and, you know, the young heroes of the novel. That seems like a really good kind of period of time, because I could imagine being that interested in my own grandparents and their parents and getting totally immersed in that world and wanting to do all the research and find out more about the characters and everything, because it's something you don't know, but you're close enough that it, you know, you might want to know.

[Laurie Frankel]

Well, and it. I mean, it also means that when we're thinking now about writing historical fiction, this period that you're talking about is on the table.

[Jack Wilson]

We'd be writing about 1980 or. Yeah.

[Laurie Frankel]

Which is astonishing to me.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah. Yeah. Mike, have you read Ragtime?

[Mike Palindrome]

I have not. Yeah.

[Laurie Frankel]

Oh, you have to. It's really great.

[Mike Palindrome]

Yeah.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah. Good New York book for you. So. Okay, so that's. That's a good pick. Pick number one. Mike, what's your. Do you have any recommendations from this time period?

[Mike Palindrome]

For me, I have so many picks, but I guess I'll do Deliverance by James Dicke.

[Jack Wilson]

Okay. Yeah, I've seen the movie. Haven't read the book.

[Laurie Frankel]

Me neither. I haven't read the book.

[Mike Palindrome]

The book is wonderful. You know, he's primarily a poet. He was the US poet laureate for a number of years in the 60s. It's a beautifully written, entertaining. It's a thriller. I mean, it's a. It's such a great book, really. I think it's. And I think the way he handles class is fascinating. And through the microscope of. Through the. You Know, through The telescope of 1971, a white male author writing about class.

[Jack Wilson]

I think there still is that kind of dynamic of, you know, when the Harry Potter movies came out, everybody had. You know, millions of people had read the books and. And Hunger Games and some things like that, where I know there are. People are eagerly waiting for the movie to come out. But this period seems full of books that. That became great movies, but that already had an audience of tens or hundreds of thousands of. Of Americans who had read the novel and, you know, had this experience already with the story. Almost all of the books that I was picking out had also been made into a movie that was pretty prominent. And our two picks so far, we've got a Broadway show and a very famous movie with Deliverance. Okay, so let's kick things back to Laurie. What is your second pick?

[Laurie Frankel]

My second pick is Toni Morrison's early stuff, like Sula, right? Yeah, and Blue sky and. And like, okay, they're not beloved, but, I mean, I think they are remarkable novels on their own. They are also remarkable novels for being. I found them. I went back and skimmed through both again this week, and I thought they're sort of amazing. They feel to me like the first of their kind, and they're certainly the first of hers. And you can see everything that. That is to come. Yeah, you know, this remarkable career that is. I was surprised that they were that early. They feel to me like they are seeing through time. Do you know what I mean? Like that they. They're this. This harbinger of what is. What is to come out of Toni Morrison herself, but also this enormous culture shift and I think, literary shift that is that she, in some ways. In a lot of ways, I think, kicks off. And I don't think there are movies of either one of them. I don't think.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah, I mean, maybe there were, but they were not big. I mean, by now, maybe somebody has made a movie out of them, but it would have been small. I haven't heard of it. Bluest Eye. She wrote a really interesting introduction to Bluest Eye where she basically was saying, I can only read this and see all the mistakes and, you know, all the things I would do differently.

[Co-host or Producer]

And.

[Jack Wilson]

And I almost felt like she was cautioning me against it. But I read it and really enjoyed it, and it. It does feel like it is almost an announcement that here is a force to be reckoned with. I've talked about Toni Morrison. She's. There's been a few people who have sort of made an exception to this 50 year period. And she was sort of the easiest, easiest one of, we don't have to wait 50 years to put her in the hall of fame and to talk about her on the podcast. She's clearly somebody who is going to be read. I feel confident she'll be read 100 years from now.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And it's, I mean, the other thing that I think is very interesting about those early novels is that she was still being a full, she was still working full time. She was being a full time editor. That strikes me as lots and lots and lots of people are working full time while they're writing novels. But to be working full time in publishing, to be working full time editing other people's novels while you are also getting up at 4 o' clock in the morning to write your own novel is. It produces a really interesting, really interesting work. I find it really, actually, what I want to say is I think it's difficult, at least for me to read it through any other lens at this point. Play. But that is so impressive and astonishing to me.

[Jack Wilson]

Right. Okay. Well, we've been talking a while, so let's take a quick break and we'll come back with the next pick from Mike. Hey folks, the countdown is on. Holiday shopping season is officially here. Uncommon Goods takes the stress out of gifting with thousands of unique, high quality finds you won't see anywhere else. When you shop at Uncommon Goods, you're supporting artists and small independent businesses, but.

[Co-host or Producer]

That means they can sell out.

[Jack Wilson]

So shop now. I bought my dad a very cool throwback radio with Bluetooth so he can listen to his old time radio shows in style. The Uncommon Gifts website has something for everyone from moms and dads to kids and teens die hard. Football fans, history buffs, foodies, avid gardeners, mixologists, and of course, book lovers.

[Co-host or Producer]

So don't wait.

[Jack Wilson]

Cross those names off your list before the rush. To get 15% off your next gift.

[Co-host or Producer]

Go to uncommongoods.com literature that's uncommongoods.com literature for 15% off.

[Jack Wilson]

Uncommon Goods were all out of the ordinary. Hey folks, this is Jack. I want to tell you about a holiday success. I had an aura frame. My sister and I got our parents an aura frame a few years ago and it has been amazing. Now we can add family photos to their frame whenever we have a new one to share.

[Co-host or Producer]

The Aura app is right on our.

[Jack Wilson]

Phones and it's easy to add a picture to it. My parents have their aura frame sitting on a table in their living room.

[Co-host or Producer]

And it shows new pictures all day long.

[Jack Wilson]

It was very easy to get them started.

[Co-host or Producer]

All we had to do was link it to their wi fi and it's worked ever since.

[Jack Wilson]

For a limited time, visit auraframes.com and get $45 off Aura's best selling Carver mat frames named number one by Wirecutter.

[Co-host or Producer]

By using Promo Code Literature at checkout.

[Jack Wilson]

That's a U R A frames.com promo code literature this exclusive Black Friday Cyber Monday deal is their best of the.

[Co-host or Producer]

Year, so order now before it ends and support the show by mentioning us at checkout.

[Jack Wilson]

Terms and conditions apply. Hey everyone, the days are getting shorter, the holidays are around the corner. It's time for an energy boost. Here's something I've been using AG1, a whole body health program in one easy scoop after my morning workout, I combine AG1 with water, shake it up, and enjoy a brisk little drink that's packed with antioxidants, prebiotics, probiotics, enzymes, and micronutrients. That little scoop also has multivitamins, greens, immune support, cognitive support, functional mushrooms, and stress adaptogens all in one scoop. And it tastes good too, which was a nice surprise. It's an easy part of my daily routine and I feel great. Head to drinkag1.com literature to get a free welcome kit with an AG1 flavor sampler and a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 when you first subscribe. That's drinkag1.com literature. Okay, we're halfway through.

[Co-host or Producer]

Let's pause the discussion there to talk a little bit about gratitude. First of all, I'm thankful to all of you dear listeners for 10 years of support. We owe everything we have to you, especially those who've shared an email with us, or left a kind review or generously donated to [e-mail] donate or signed up with us at patreon.com literature and if you've signed up to take the History of Literature podcast tour through Literary England next May. Well, a thousand thank yous for that. We're trying some new things and it's nice to know that you, the listeners, have our back. And over the years, whenever we have a new initiative or when we put out the call for information or suggestions, you guys have come through. Thank you very much. I got an email the other day from a kind hearted person who it's a private well, it's a private email, so I'm not going to read from it, but she was talking about her husband who has lost some of his enthusiasm for literature and in his profession of teaching. And she said something, something in particular on the podcast helped him regain it. And the story she was telling moved me. I was reading it late at night, as it happens, and I was in that frame of mind where I'm easily touched. But for whatever reason, my eyes were filled with tears, knowing what he'd been going through, knowing how easy it is, how natural it is for us to feel that sense of despair. These are not good times. These are not easy times. But we have to endure in a way that doesn't defeat us. We can't give up. We can't give in. Here's one way to think of it. Economists will tell you that during an economic slowdown, the government needs to spend more, which is counterintuitive. And every time there's a recession, we go through this where people are tempted to say, well, times are tough. We need to tighten our belts. We can't keep spending too much. It stands to reason we as a.

[Jack Wilson]

Nation.

[Co-host or Producer]

Have to limit what we spend. And economists will say, well, that's fine for a family. It's fine for an individual, or even for a business. But it's not the right move for a government to make. A government has to spend during a recession to pull the country out of the recession. It should, if it's responsible, cut back during boom times to reduce its debt and so on. But when there's no money flowing through the system, the government has to go against all of its instincts and spend money and pump that money in. That's how I feel about tough times, culturally. This is when generosity and enthusiasm and joy and humor need to be pumped into the system. It's not coming from the news. The news is horrible, freshly horrible on a seemingly daily basis. But if we, we the people, don't supply it, then it's not coming. The zigzag here today is horrible. So we need to zag with the not horrible. We need to be kinder to each other, more sympathetic, more generous, where we can be. To feel happiness and express it to one another, openly, vocally, to make our days brighter, to start projects that require some optimism so others can see that we still have hope, that hope is alive and kicking, and other good things can be, too. And on Thanksgiving, we find things to be grateful for. We look for those green shoots. We find them in unexpected places. Maybe we have friendships we can rekindle or relationships to strengthen or pleasures to experience. Some way to renew our enthusiasm for life so that our encounters with people, from strangers to loved ones, are filled with positive energy.

[Jack Wilson]

Are you reading something good?

[Co-host or Producer]

Eh, what's the point? Everything's going to hell anyway. Hey, don't let that be you. Don't take that attitude. A colleague the other day said, hey, you're the literature guy.

[Jack Wilson]

I got so sick of the news, I started reading a classic book.

[Co-host or Producer]

I've never read Wuthering Heights. You know anything about it? I chuckled and told him about 10 episodes worth of trivia without telling him where I was pulling it from. But it was great. A great book was tiding him over, carrying him through. Maybe you need to write your great book. Maybe that's the approach you need to take. Or you could start that new cooking class or get that new puppy or whatever will light that spark. And then give and give and give some more. It's what I love about teaching and teachers and other forms of caregiving, too. When we're in a desert, we're grateful for all that water coming from wherever. When the soil is barren, we love those nutrients we can build on, that we all need. Those smiles, those hugs, those compliments, that assistance. So let's get out there and give what we can while we still have life in our bodies. Thanks giving. And while we do that, I'll also still be here doing the literature thing, reading and yapping. I'm thankful for the many great guests, too. We have more volunteers to come on the show than we have room for in the schedule, but I'm still grateful to each and every one of them. All those people who raise their hand and say, I've got something, I think I can add Jack. We thank them for taking the time and I'm grateful, as I said, to all of you, happy Thanksgiving. Now let's get back to our look at 1965-1975 with Mike and Laurie.

[Jack Wilson]

Okay, we're back. So, Mike, what is your pick? Number two?

[Mike Palindrome]

I think Flannery O'. Connor. Basically anything. I know wise blood is 52, but like a lot of her short stories are in the 60s and then the complete short stories. That Doorstop comes out in 71. I. I found that when I was. I discovered her in my 20s, I was pretty arrogant and I felt like every writer I read, I would know ahead of time what I was going to get out of them. And I think Flannery o' Connor changed the way I viewed writers because I had all these assumptions about her and I just did not expect her humor and the treatment of religion and just her take on America. I just, I didn't expect to love her as much as I Did.

[Jack Wilson]

And the violence.

[Mike Palindrome]

Yeah, it's. She is. She's like that anecdote, that anecdote teller at a party that just everyone kind of gathers around her because you start noticing, like, she's telling, like, a really good anecdote. And I think a lot of her stories have come. Great storytellers.

[Jack Wilson]

Right? Or like Faulkner is. Is in the living room sitting in the chair, telling stories, and people have kind of gathered around and suddenly there are whoops of laughter from the kitchen and go in there and they're all. A big crowd is gathered around Flannery o', Connor, who's. Who's kind of outdoing him by. With her. Her energy and charisma.

[Mike Palindrome]

Yeah. And I. I also have a lot of male pics, so I really wanted to. Yeah, I was thinking of Toni Morrison also. I just think the more we understand publishing today and in the past, we see just how challenging it was for women to be published.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah. What struck me about the list that you sent was how male and how white they were. And in fact, it looked to me like it got a little bit less male before it got a little bit less white.

[Mike Palindrome]

Yeah.

[Jack Wilson]

Especially, I mean, when you look at winners, you maybe don't get it as much as when you look at some of these. The National Book Award one I sent has all of the shortlist and the nominees, and sometimes it'll be some years they were doing like 10. And you really see it there when, you know, if it's 9 out of 10 or something that are white males, you can start to see how people who weren't a white male were swimming upstream.

[Laurie Frankel]

Okay, so are you going to tell us your list?

[Jack Wilson]

Oh, you know, I didn't really make one because I started seeing so many books and, you know, I started jotting down. But yeah, I had just from the prizes, I had. I had El Doctoro on there. I had Flannery o' Connor on there. So. So far you haven't. Oh, I didn't have Deliverance, but definitely had Toni Morrison, so, yeah, I missed that one. So that's a good one to add. There's also a lot of bestsellers that are kind of. That kind of surprised me that they made it to number one. You know, there's a lot of James Michener. I was expecting to add Arthur Haley and Jacqueline Suzanne, but also Graham Green had a number one, and Kurt Vonnegut did Gore Vidal and John Le Carre and Joseph Heller and El Doctoro. The idea that those would be the number one. And I don't know if I'm stepping on anybody's picks here, but Herzog came out in 1965, and it spent 29 weeks as the number one book on the New York Times bestseller list from 64 to 65, which is just kind of staggering to me that a book like that, as highbrow as that book is that it was over half a year as the number one bestseller for the New York Times. Okay, so where are we? Are we up to Mike's?

[Laurie Frankel]

No, I think it's my turn. Yeah.

[Jack Wilson]

Laurie's number three, but I'm still trying.

[Laurie Frankel]

To get over her. Tug. That is truly astonishing. And one of the things that I want to also add before I tell you my next pick, just because you bring it up, is I feel like the other thing that's changed so much is because people are reading on E Readers all the time. Then they then asked questions like this. You're never going to come upon these books that are. That are 50 years old or, you know, or even 5 years old, because they're not in your house anymore. You asked me this question, and I turned to my bookshelf because I had so many books, and. And therefore I might come upon these books, but anymore, if I've borrowed them and then, you know, on my E Reader, I've brought them on, whatever, and they go back or they go away or they're on there, but I cannot see them, then. Then I'm not browsing those shelves, and neither is my kid. Books are gone forever.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah, and if it's E Readers, then it. Then it runs into the issue that music has run into, which is people can discover music from any year and they don't have to all listen to it at the same time. You know, like we used to have. You could pinpoint a number one song on the radio. Oh, that was from April, May, and June of 1989. You know, everybody in the country was listening to that song, and the books were like that. If a book is 29 weeks as number one on the new York Times Bestseller list, chances are if you have a friend who likes to read, they've probably read it around the same time that you've read it. Whereas if it's an ebook. And I noticed on one of these lists that I sent around, I guess it was the National Book Award. I don't know if you noticed this, but there was a period in. It started in 1980. So it was after the period I asked you to look at where they were giving out a National Book Award for hardcover and then a separate one for paperback.

[Mike Palindrome]

Oh, I remember that.

[Jack Wilson]

And. And you'd look at. You look at the list, and the people who are on hardcover, then the following year or two years later would be nominated for paperback. And so I suppose they kind of did away with it, thinking, well, we're just, you know. But it really kind of reflects the way publishing was on a schedule and was kind of driving what people were reading, because these would be the books that you could, if you were going to read. These would be the books that would be in the bookstore. And maybe they came out in hardcover, maybe they came out in paperback, but we just don't have that because of Amazon and all the access we have to whatever book we want, whenever we want. I don't think we just don't have that same kind of. Although, Laurie, and you know this, the publishing industry still, they revolve around a launch of a book, right. They try to make the launch like the big.

[Co-host or Producer]

The big moment.

[Jack Wilson]

And six months after, a year after, they're kind of like, well, that's. That's yesterday's news.

[Co-host or Producer]

Right.

[Jack Wilson]

Which is crazy.

[Laurie Frankel]

I mean, it feels like six days after, if it doesn't hit immediately, then it's gone. It never happened.

[Jack Wilson]

Right.

[Laurie Frankel]

Just demoralizing and astonishing.

[Jack Wilson]

And books don't need to be like that.

[Laurie Frankel]

You know, and books don't need to be like that. No. I love the idea of everybody in the country reading the same book at the same time. I see where there's a problem, but I also think that would be very interesting in a very different way than we read right now.

[Jack Wilson]

Okay, so are we up to Laurie, number three?

[Laurie Frankel]

Yes, yes. Hundred Years of Solitude, Gabriel Garcia Marquez. Lots of there. So that was written in 67, translated in 70. Also his short story, A Very Old man with Enormous Wings, which is where I got the title. That is where I took the title for my book that's coming out in May, and that is 68. And those books were. I mean, so I came upon. By the time I came upon 100 years of solitude, I guess, in college, it was already classic, considered a classic. And that happened really quickly because it hadn't even been. I guess it's been 20 years, that book. And also short stories and frankly, lots of his novels. It blew my mind the first time I read them in college, and then again when I read them, when I read them later, when I read them.

[Jack Wilson]

Again later, I've talked to people on the podcast who chose that book to discuss, and it was like a religious experience when they read 100 Years of Solitude. I think it was so different, but at the same time feels so classic. It feels fresh and innovative, but I think it also feels kind of familiar, like this book has always been here or this isn't. You know, it's not experimental or something. It's just. It just feels weighty and yet people just love it. That. For the entertainment and the emotion and. Yeah, that's a really good pick. That's another one. I've kind of nibbled at the edges of it, where we've done some episodes on Marques before, but I could do one just on 100 Years of Solitude, so that's a good pick. Mike, you've read that, right?

[Mike Palindrome]

Yeah, I've read it a couple of times. It's a great novel. I love the sprawl of it. It reminds me a lot of Midnight's Children, which came out in 81, so a little later.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah, I think Rushdie was hugely influenced.

[Mike Palindrome]

Yeah, I think. I think this time period, you know, it's. It's kind of this swirling, unsettled historical period. There's like this, you know, what Bakhtin calls, like a multiplicity of voices and discourse in a single text. You just have so many different styles in this period because you have, like, suburban stories like Joyce Carol Oates, expensive People, and, you know, Raymond Carver is right around the corner. Then. Then you have, you know, like 100 years of solitude and people really kind of trying different forms.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah, you have John Barth and. And Donald Barthelmay, and you've got people who are. Yeah, they're doing a lot of different things. And then you kind of have. You still have some Faulkner popping up and Eudora Welty and some people who are kind of from that 40s and.

[Laurie Frankel]

50S, really, it's a transition. And that is what that novel has always felt to me. It seems to straddle those ways of telling. It is a big, rolling novel and it's kind. It. It's dense, It's. It's not an easy read, but it feels. It feels like an easy read somehow. Not easy is the wrong word, but it. Which is to say, that's what. I think they teach it in school. That's why I think it's so popular and enduring, is because somehow you. Turning pages of. Of what is nonetheless this really weighty tome. And some of it is that I think it's really fun. Like at a sentence level, I think it's really, really fun. And.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah.

[Laurie Frankel]

And so combining that with the kind of like epic sweep of the history and family and multi genre. I think all of that comes. Comes through, you know, even to non literature students like you don't. You don't have to read it in the classroom to get all of that. I think.

[Mike Palindrome]

I love the way all the like half the characters are named Buendia. It's well played for comic effect.

[Jack Wilson]

And yet I've always kind of liked Love in the Time of Cholera better. I don't know if you guys have enjoyed that novel too, but I haven't reread that.

[Mike Palindrome]

Maybe for a reread.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah, I. I was torn, but I feel like Love in the Time of Cholera doesn't. How do I want to say. Doesn't move through. It doesn't move as well. It's. It's.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah.

[Laurie Frankel]

What do I. How do I want to say that it. Or maybe it moves too much. It's too much because it's driving to this thing that we, that we know about. Maybe it reads with an air of resignation that I think 100 years of solitude does not.

[Jack Wilson]

Feels a little more open ended.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah. Or inviting. Inviting you in a little bit. It's a little more like, come along on this ride. We're gonna go all of these places. Whereas Love in the Time of Cholera is like. I'm gonna tell you this story of these people and, and we're going to see how they're impacted by all these other things. But it's really going to be the story of these people and their love. And that is very interestingly circumscribed in a book that is. That is also quite long and sprawling. But I don't know, for my money.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah. Okay. So Mike, your last pick, I have.

[Mike Palindrome]

To say a fan's notes, I think.

[Jack Wilson]

I think I had that written down. I wondered if you were going to pick that. You and I have been talking about this book since college.

[Mike Palindrome]

I mean it's. It's one of the first books I read where the character was so flawed and just the alcoholism, the relationships, kind of searching for an artist's path, you know, I mean, I think was a way for me to return to Dostoyevsky and existentialism. I think the fact that this book was well received and sold well is another, you know, credit to the, to this time period.

[Jack Wilson]

I got my copy from my grandparents bookshelf and they, you know, I think it was a book of the month club or something. I don't know why they had it. Yeah. But it is a crazy book to be a bestseller. Yeah.

[Laurie Frankel]

I don't know this book.

[Jack Wilson]

Oh, it's basically a one hit wonder for Frederick Exley, I would say. I think he wrote a couple others, but this was like his. He struck gold with this one.

[Mike Palindrome]

I think it borders memoir and philosophy.

[Jack Wilson]

Text.

[Mike Palindrome]

But it's basically a story about the narrator, who's an alcoholic and is very episodic. You stay close to the character as he moves about his life.

[Jack Wilson]

He's trying to keep a grip on his sanity. But does it open or. Very early in the book, he's in a bar watching the New York Giants football team and he's kind of. He's kind of arguing with people and it immediately pulled me in. He's a very charismatic storyteller.

[Laurie Frankel]

Okay, I can't wait. I've written it down. I can't wait.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah, yeah, it is good. And it does feel kind of ahead of its time, I think.

[Mike Palindrome]

Yeah. I mean, I think there you can see parts of. For me, I can see parts of a fan's notes and canals guard and probably a lot of auto fiction where you're very close to the narrator.

[Jack Wilson]

I just remember a part early on where he's in the bar and he's arguing with somebody and somebody says something like, apostasy. You use words, you don't even know what they mean. I think he overhears it and then he goes up to him and he says, apostasy is the disavowal of previously avowed principles. I don't know why that stuck with me. Maybe because I didn't know what the word meant. And I thought, wow, wouldn't that be something if you could go up and define a word like that with that much confidence? Okay, well, there's a lot of books we haven't talked about. I also had on my list, William Styron has got, you know, he would be an interesting author to cover. Philip Roth. Mike. We haven't done an episode on Philip Roth.

[Co-host or Producer]

I don't think. Yeah, maybe.

[Jack Wilson]

Maybe we. I think we talked about it. We planned to at one point, but Portnoy's complaint was 1969. That was a bestseller. A French Lieutenant's Woman. I thought you might pick Mike because you're a John Fowles fan, right?

[Mike Palindrome]

I am the Magus and yeah. The collector.

[Jack Wilson]

And I need to do episodes on Catherine Ann Porter. Her collector stories came out. Joyce Carol Oates and John Updike are kind of interesting. They're in some ways kind of why I have this 50 year policy. Because I went through a lot of years of my life where people would sort of say like, oh, you have to read the latest update and then there was one every year. And now I think people would probably say you don't have to read every one. That maybe a few have risen to the top or they're knowing who he is and kind of what he meant to. Literature is sort of interesting, but you wouldn't need to read, you know, 40 of his novels. But if you were around during those years, he's almost always on the list of nominees and you know, he's either winning the prize or he's close to it or something. But I think the cream kind of rises to the top a little bit. Yeah.

[Mike Palindrome]

I have a recommendation of a book that I haven't read from the period, Augustus by John Williams, because I loved Stoner and Butcher's Crossing, which I highly recommend. Those books, you cannot stop reading them. I mean, it's something you read in a sitting. So I'm just assuming that Augustus is a great book. I'm going to read it.

[Co-host or Producer]

Okay.

[Laurie Frankel]

Interesting. I'm writing all this down.

[Jack Wilson]

You know who kind of surprised me to see on the list was Cynthia Ozyk, who's. I didn't realize she was. 1972 was much earlier than I would have expected to see her. I think she kind of hit my radar later and I was kind of thinking she was maybe more from the 80s, but she was. She had a book out in 1972. Grace Paley, John Gardner. These are all people who would be good people to discuss and who really kind of define that era for me a little bit. John Gardner seems like this is kind of his time. That mid-70s era, Ursula Le Guin was.

[Laurie Frankel]

On my maybe list and who would be an interesting. An interesting person to bring into all of that. Yeah, the kind of sci fi. And speaking of these like giant multi book sagas.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah.

[Laurie Frankel]

And what that looked like in the 60s and 70s. An interesting question.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah. She was a force.

[Laurie Frankel]

She was a force. She was a force. And she was doing it before, but in the way that she was doing it before anybody else was doing it and now everyone is doing it. I feel like there's just a significant percentage of people who are writing today who are standing on her shoulders.

[Jack Wilson]

Right. Okay. Well, any last thoughts? Things, Mike, anything we didn't cover that you were.

[Mike Palindrome]

Oh, I would. I had a poetry pick, Seamus Heaney. Oh, I love his poetry. I feel like I'll read anything by him. Like if he's discussing twigs and rocks and. And you know, stony soil, I'm game. And then Charlotte's Web. Because I. I'll really never forget the feeling I had on the last page when Charlotte flies away and Wilbur cries. So.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yes. And in fact. Well, as to children's literature, I felt like the children's literature from this period, both Beverly Clear, the early Ramona books, Beverly Clear's early Ramona books, and much of Judy Blume comes from this period. The like. Not Are you their gods? But that. That ilk. But also like Tales of a Fourth Grade Nothing. And these are books that held up so well that I read them to my kid in this. I mean, in the thing that I kept that copy from when I was a child. It was still on my shelves when it. And then read it to my kid who liked it just. Just as much as I did. Is a remarkable. Would be remarkable for any novel. Nevermind children's literature.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah. I read Tales of a Fourth Grade Nothing so many times.

[Laurie Frankel]

So many times.

[Jack Wilson]

And the Great Brain books were big seventies books for me also. It's just a great stretch of films, those early 70s films. There were so many interesting films being made. The Godfather, of course, basically any film.

[Mike Palindrome]

That had John Cazale.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah, right. He was only in great movies.

[Mike Palindrome]

He was in. He was in four movies, and they were all Oscar winners.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah, well, so Godfather one and two, Deer Hunter, Dog Day Afternoon. Yeah.

[Mike Palindrome]

I think he was actually in the fifth movie before he died of cancer.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah. And he was Meryl Streep's boyfriend.

[Mike Palindrome]

Yeah. He was dying while they were shooting Deer Hunter.

[Jack Wilson]

Right, okay. Well, on that note, I was gonna.

[Laurie Frankel]

Say that's a terrible note to end on. We were doing much better with Charlotte's Web. Although that also ends on a sad note.

[Mike Palindrome]

How about Frog and Toad are Friends.

[Laurie Frankel]

Oh, Frog and Toad are Friends.

[Mike Palindrome]

Because. Because, I mean, I. I read that to my daughter, and I can't tell you how much fun it was explaining bureaucracy to her and. And adherence to rules and rule breaking and, you know, putting on a good face and like, office politics and friend politics and it really is such a.

[Laurie Frankel]

Great series, you know, Such a great series.

[Jack Wilson]

It's interesting because we were talking about, you know, the books of our parents. And then I was gonna say something when you said, as we're veering into children's books, we're really not talking about our era and the books that we read and that were maybe coming out. You know, the Ramona books. I remember when the new Ramona book would come out, the librarian would set it aside for me because she knew I was gonna be so excited and. But in Some ways those are probably our parents books too. You know, I've got a connection with like Mo Willems that is just from reading those books to my kids. And I'm guessing that my own parents would probably feel the same way about like Frog and Toad, that they probably have a lot of nostalgia for when my sister and I were reading those books or having those books read to us.

[Laurie Frankel]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And those are the. I mean, it is a very emotional connection because they're very emotional books. And it's a. And it's an emotional time. I mean, raising, especially raising small children because you're not sleeping and they're not sleeping and no one is sleeping. And so, you know, then Charlotte dies and you're like, sorry, I can't finish reading this because I'm so, you know, they're just very emotional, emotional reads. The reads, the books that you read to your, your kids when they're little that I think are formative in a whole different way. You're just never, ever going to get over Charlotte's web. Never.

[Mike Palindrome]

Never ever.

[Jack Wilson]

Okay, well, let's leave things there. Mike Palindrome and Laurie Frankel, Happy Thanksgiving and thank you so much for joining me on the history of literature.

[Mike Palindrome]

Happy Thanksgiving.

[Laurie Frankel]

Happy Thanksgiving.

[Jack Wilson]

With Black Friday savings at the Home.

[Laurie Frankel]

Depot, you can get up to $1,400.

[Jack Wilson]

Off, plus get free delivery on select appliances like LG, America's most reliable line of appliances.

[Laurie Frankel]

Check out the newest LG refrigerator with.

[Jack Wilson]

New mini craft ice straight from the dispenser shop. Black Friday savings on select LG appliances, plus get free delivery now at the Home Depot.

[Laurie Frankel]

Free delivery on appliance purchases of $396 or more.

[Jack Wilson]

Offer valid 11. 5 through 12, 3 US only. See store online for details. So good, so good, so good.

[State Farm Advertiser]

Give big, save big with Rack Friday deals at Nordstrom Rack. For a limited time, take an extra 40% off red tag clearance for a total Savings up to 75% off. Save on gifts for everyone on your list from brands like Vince Cole Haunt, Sam Edelman and more. All sales final and restrictions apply. The best stuff goes fast. So bring your gift list and your wish list to your nearest Nordstrom rack today.

[Jack Wilson]

Okay, there we go. That was Mike and Laurie. My thanks to them. Eve Dunbar was here in episode 662. After she and I talked about black women writers during the period of segregation, the 1930s to 1950s, I asked her a special question. Okay. Joining me now is Eve Dunbar, author of Monstrous Work and Radical Black Women Writing Under Segregation. Eve this question comes from a listener who asks, what do you want your last book to be? This will be the last book you will ever read. You can either choose one that exists or describe one that has not yet been written.

[Eve Dunbar]

This is such a tough question, but I. At this moment in my life, I imagine at the end of my life it might be a different answer. But I would probably pick. I would pick a book that brings me joy. And that book right now for me, is Toni Morrison's Sula.

[Co-host or Producer]

Oh, yeah.

[Eve Dunbar]

Yeah. It's one of my kind of favorite novels. So, yeah, it would be a novel and it would be a Toni Morrison novel.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah.

[Eve Dunbar]

And I just. The idea that of the fortitude of friendship, even when it fails between women, between black women, is kind of where I would want to end my reading life in that feeling. And it's a great book. It's about resisting norms, Right. Sula's resistance to the norms that attempt to kind of make and confine her. And then, you know, this idea that even at the end, you would be wanting to tell your best friend what the end was like. I think that that's just a lovely way to kind of end your reading life.

[Jack Wilson]

We talked about this sort of dynamic when we talked about the period from the 1930s to the 1950s, and Morrison was coming a little bit later. But do you see some of the same focus on the friendship? Was this a way of kind of reminding people that whatever was going on politically in, I guess it was the 1970s maybe, or the very early 1980s when Sula came out, that she was saying, let's not forget that there is something here. There's friendship, there's community ties, there's other kinds of everyday pleasures that black women have.

[Eve Dunbar]

Yeah. And I think that, like the previous generation of writers, right. She's hyper aware that the ideas and ideals of conformity actually aren't going to bring you happiness or bring you kind of the joy. Because that book begins and ends with the reader understanding that this place that these people live is about to be taken from them. And so whatever they've built right in this place, in this time, on this land, is easily taken by the state, by white people, by the environment. Right. That in fact, it is only. And. Or it is as much that our lives are as much about kind of allowing ourselves to experience freedom or liberation from the things that constrict us. Comportment by the performance of femininity, masculinity, by the performance of, you know, citizenship of normativity, that those things that constrain us can be thrown off and that in fact friendship is there for us. Sociality in a really productive and a very liberatory way might be the thing that frees us.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah. And there would also be the pleasure of Morrison's prosecution.

[Eve Dunbar]

Oh, yeah.

[Jack Wilson]

I mean, it's almost like what you've given yourself is sort of some of the pleasures of poetry, but in long form. So the richness of it.

[Eve Dunbar]

Yeah. Her sentences are treat individually unto themselves.

[Jack Wilson]

Yeah. Very good choice. Eve Dunbar, thank you so much for joining me on the history of literature.

[Eve Dunbar]

Thank you.

[Jack Wilson]

Okay, There we go. Sula. I said 1970s or maybe early 80s. It was from 1973, so it's eligible now.

[Co-host or Producer]

And onto the list it goes.

[Jack Wilson]

My thanks to Eve Dunbar, Mike Palindrome.

[Co-host or Producer]

And Laurie Frankel for joining me today.

[Jack Wilson]

We'll be back next week with Steven.

[Co-host or Producer]

Greenblatt and Christopher Marlowe and we'll have an episode on George Orwell coming soon and more in the coming weeks.

[Jack Wilson]

We've got a history of aphorisms, a.

[Co-host or Producer]

Look at why King Lear is the most Chinese of all the Shakespeare plays.

[Jack Wilson]

We will talk to a biographer of.

[Co-host or Producer]

Robert Louis Stevenson and a historian about 2000 years of Roman history. Well, we'll hear about a novel by.

[Jack Wilson]

A French woman that was a bestseller in its day and as yet for.

[Co-host or Producer]

Some reason has not been translated into English for 250 years. We'll talk to the translator. And we've got Chekhov and Dickens and Byron and Ruskin and the Godfather and more and more and more. It's a bountiful harvest here at the History of Literature podcast.

[Jack Wilson]

I'm Jack Wilson.

[Co-host or Producer]

Thank you for listening and we'll see you next time.

[Jack Wilson]

And Doug, here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us. Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty Liberty Liberty.

[Laurie Frankel]

Liberty Savings Ferry Unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts Ordinary Checking. Just a place to park your money. Our checking a $300 head start. As a member of Oregon State Credit Union, you'll feel the benefits from day one. Open a new checking account, set up direct deposit and we'll add 300 bucks to get you going. Oregon State Credit Union Human to Human banking insured by NCUA equal housing lender $25 minimum balance required. Subject to change terms and conditions.