Podcast Summary: The History of Literature — Ep. 755

Title: The Chinese Tragedy of King Lear (with Nan Z. Da) | My Last Book with Iris Jamahl Dunkle
Host: Jacke Wilson
Guests: Nan Z. Da, Iris Jamahl Dunkle
Date: December 4, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Jacke Wilson explores a thought-provoking new reading of Shakespeare’s King Lear through the lens of Chinese history, particularly Maoist and post-Maoist China, with Nan Z. Da, literary scholar and author of The Chinese Tragedy of King Lear. Da draws on both personal experience and literary analysis to illuminate how Lear's dilemma resonates with twentieth-century Chinese political trauma, from the excesses of Maoism to the cultural wounds of scripted obedience and broken familial bonds. Later, biographer Iris Jamahl Dunkle shares her choice for the last book she’d ever read, taking a brief poetic detour to the work of Elizabeth Bishop.

Main Interview: Nan Z. Da on King Lear and the Tragedy of 20th-Century China

Nan Z. Da’s Background and Perspective

• Childhood in China and the U.S. (05:04–05:42)

  • Born in Hangzhou, emigrated to the U.S. at age 6 (Cincinnati, then Philadelphia).
  • Remembers the vividness of late-80s/early-90s China: “Every minute was so vivid that I have… retained many memories of those early years.” – Nan Z. Da [05:16]

• Encounter with Shakespeare (05:57–06:18)

  • First read King Lear in Children’s World Classics.
  • Came to a deeper understanding as a university undergraduate.
  • Fascination: “We have wronged Lear. It’s a play about wronging, and proximity to wronging makes it harder to see other possible cases.” – Nan Z. Da [06:21]

Rethinking Lear’s Opening and Its Chinese Resonance

• Common Misconceptions About Lear (06:55–08:01)

  • "We usually misremember the division of the kingdoms… as a test that encourages cheating, but it is itself a test that has cheated."
  • Lear is not merely rewarding flattery; he punishes deviation from a script, making it more complex than simple vanity.

• Personal and Historical Parallels (09:33–10:55)

  • Da: Lear’s test echoed Maoist-era China's culture of "stupidly scripted speech... unmeritocratic performances... [where] the outcome was long determined in advance."
  • Such scripts “render human life meaningless, essentially.” [10:25]
  • Da draws on memories of empty, forced ritual from her childhood, connecting Shakespeare's narrative to China’s political culture.

Political Leadership and the Dangers of Flattery

• On Truth, Criticism, and Authority (11:45–13:06)

  • “For [Lear] to accept criticism is to die… Criticism is an agonized predicament, both for the truth teller… and for the person demanding it because… if there are no longer surrounded by yes-men, then they will perish.”
  • Confucian ideal: The sovereign needs ministers who will tell uncomfortable truths; Maoism represents the catastrophic failure of that tradition.

• Why King Lear Is "the Most Chinese Shakespeare Play" (13:06–15:03)

  • On its Britishness: “It is about a Britain extinction event… every one of these characters is as English as you could get.”
  • On its Chineseness: “[Lear] understands cheating… when things are not meritocratic, how quickly things devolve into not just absurd cruelty, but absurd stupidity and confusion… abusive children can be to parents and vice versa—a very Chinese theme.”

Comparative History: Lear, China, and the Problem of Redistribution

• 20th Century Chinese Context (19:06–21:38)

  • Lear’s division of the kingdom compared to the Nationalist/Communist contest in China.
  • Early Communism involves “bids for flattery” and scripts of self-congratulation—Mao writing “long compliments to himself.”
  • The culture of political flattery foreshadows later tragedies.

• Parallels and Contrasts: Lear vs. Mao (21:38–22:38)

  • Mao is "significantly worse"; whereas Lear, for all his faults, is sympathetic, especially as he “resembles the people who are the worst victims of Maoism.”

• Redistribution, Meritocracy, and Communist Experiments (23:14–25:54)

  • “Lear… is a play about communism in its most deeply desired and failed form… Redistribution immediately became… handing power to the worst possible human beings.”
  • On the poverty of Lear’s Britain and 1940s China: “You have nothing really to redistribute. And that’s the case in Lear as well—this country is in shambles.”

Family, Filial Piety, and Abuse—Confucian and Shakespearean Tragedy

• Familial Betrayal and Confucian Ideals (26:42–28:19)

  • “Lear’s behavior towards his children is, in many ways, classic abuse.”
  • The play manifests “the worst possible Confucian environment,” where balance is lost and relationships become vicious cycles of humiliation.
  • “If you go to the depth of the Cultural Revolution, you see… people turning in their parents… and parents doing it to their children. This goes on… still alive today.”

• Cult of Mao and Broken Reverence (28:39–29:10)

  • Mao was “dearer to them than their parents”; the Party redirected filial loyalty from family to the leader.

On Writing the Book — Framing History and Genre

• Organization by Genre (29:43–31:29)

  • Chapters: Tales, History, Tragedy, Comedy, Romance—showing how Lear and Chinese history illuminate each genre.
  • Explores mythic British history and the willful ignorance around certain historical periods, which echoes the suppressed history of 20th-century China.

• Lear’s Lessons on Comedy and Romance (32:23–33:53)

  • “Lear is about a certain kind of failure of comedy… the jester… is always after the fact.”
  • Even in seeking romance or redistribution, the play exposes the failure of these ideals.

Literature, Therapy, and History

• Personal Meaning and Literary Criticism (34:13–36:06)

  • Da sees literary criticism as therapeutic: “Comprehension is always therapeutic.”
  • History and literary analysis act as a “testing ground” for real-world understanding.
  • On China’s historical amnesia: “It’s not… China has gotten rid of all books about Maoism… it’s just that people aren’t even interested in reading them.”

• Relevance to Today’s America (36:06–38:21)

  • Lessons from the Cultural Revolution: “Anytime you are within range of such naked asks for flattery, you know something is deeply wrong.”
  • Da resists drawing direct analogies to contemporary America, saying, “The immediate present is the most difficult to historicize… things have to be in the past for clarity.”

• Concluding Reflections (38:21–38:44)

  • On the value of understanding complexity in monstrous periods of history and literature: “There is something worthwhile about the effort…”

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

“We have wronged Lear. It’s a play about wronging, and proximity to wronging makes it actually harder to see other possible cases.”
— Nan Z. Da [06:21]

“Lear is not rewarding flattery. He’s punishing the person who refuses to say what was scripted, which is different.”
— Nan Z. Da [08:42]

“Chinese history is my supplying of that analog to this real predicament.”
— Nan Z. Da [09:33]

“Criticism is an agonized predicament, both for the truth teller… and for the person demanding it…”
— Nan Z. Da [11:45]

“Confucian tragedy as well as a Lyrian one.”
— Nan Z. Da [28:39]

“Comprehension is always therapeutic.”
— Nan Z. Da [34:26]

"Anytime you are within range of such naked asks for flattery, you know that something is deeply wrong."
— Nan Z. Da [36:30]

The "Last Book" Segment with Iris Jamahl Dunkle

Reflections on Elizabeth Bishop (40:48–42:45)

• Iris’s Choice for a Final Book: Elizabeth Bishop’s Collected Poems.
  • “I think just to have… especially the images... where she's talking about wisdom like it’s this cold ocean… her deep thoughts as my last thoughts would be really wonderful.” — Iris Jamahl Dunkle [40:59]
  • Praises Bishop’s perfectionism: “She made those poems so perfect… every single image...” [41:45]
  • On Bishop’s timelessness: “She sort of resisted a lot of the literary movements of her era, and I think it’s given her a status… the poems will hold up.” — Jacke Wilson [42:10]
  • Bishop will “be part of what we’d want to read and hopefully 40, 50 years from now.” — Iris Jamahl Dunkle [42:37]

Timeline of Key Segments

• [04:31–38:44] — Main interview with Nan Z. Da (background, King Lear and Chinese history, themes of flattery, power, history, and familial conflict)
• [40:23–42:51] — “My Last Book” segment with Iris Jamahl Dunkle (on Elizabeth Bishop’s poems)

Takeaways

• Nan Z. Da’s perspective makes King Lear a hauntingly universal parable about misguided power, autocratic temptation, and the scars of collective memory, especially as reflected in 20th-century China.
• Both King Lear and modern history show the tragedy that follows from leadership demanding submission and flattery instead of honest critique.
• The conversation concludes by valuing literature’s power to help us process, understand, and survive the traumas of history—and, in Iris Dunkle’s words, to offer enduring wisdom and beauty for a lifetime and beyond.

For more from The History of Literature, including past episodes on drama, poetry, and the entanglement of art and politics, check out their archives or connect on social media.