← The History of Literature
The History of Literature
759 The Godfather (with Karen Spence) | My Last Book with Elyse Graham
01:04:39
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- [00:02]
Jack Wilson
The History of Literature Podcast is a member of the podglomerate Network and Lit Hub Radio. Hey folks, it's Jack. Let's talk about comfort. What does that word mean for you? It might be the comfort of being well rested. No tossing and turning, just deep, refreshing rest with support for your back and good organic materials like wool and latex to keep you cool. No more sweating at night. Trust the wisdom of Mother Nature. Comfort might also mean putting your money to good use, investing in a product that's smart for your health, your home and the planet. That's where Avocado Green Mattress comes in. It's an eco friendly, health conscious choice from a company that values transparency and ethical practices. It's the right mix of luxury and sustainability. Better for you and better for the planet. Head to avocadogreenmattress.com today and check out their mattress and bedding sale. Avocado Dream of Better Close your eyes.
- [01:12]
Karen Spence
Exhale, feel your body relax and let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh my gosh, they fast and breathe. Oh sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contacts.
- [01:41]
Jack Wilson
Hello. Francis Ford Coppola's 1972 film the Godfather is often cited as the greatest movie ever made. When it doesn't finish in first place on lists, that's often because it loses out to its 1974 sequel, The Godfather Part 2. Just how did these movies come to be? Coppola was the driving force, or a driving force, but he was not alone. The Godfather saga also has some of the greatest actors of the 20th century, including Marlon Brando, Al Pacino, Robert De Niro, James Caan, Robert Duvall, Diane Keaton, and underrated John Casale working at their peak. It was pushed forward by famous producers including Robert Evans. It was based on original source material by by best selling author Mario Puzo, and it benefited from many other heroes, some prominent, some behind the scenes who made key contributions at key times. It's a landmark of world cinema, worthy of a companion guide, and now it has one. We talked to the author of that book, Karen Spence, on today's history of literature. Foreign. Welcome to the podcast. I'm Jack Wilson. Maybe you're like me, getting into the holiday mood, starting a little Something, something in the fireplace, like a fire, I guess. I don't know. Why is that? Something, something starting a fire in the fireplace, popping some popcorn or you have some other good snack at the ready, maybe a hot cup of tea, you're under a blanket. I'm sure we're almost at the solstice. This is the period of short days and long nights. Long but cozy nights. Well, in that frame of mind, what could be better than to put on the Godfather and the Godfather 2 and also Godfather 3 if you're a completist. But for most of us watching and re watching the first two films will suffice. I a holiday gift to ourselves. And when we have a masterpiece like this or like these, maybe I should say, because each of these first two films is a masterpiece, they are endlessly fascinating, aren't they? I love oral histories and compendiums and other deep dives into albums and books and especially albums or films. These collaborative projects, television series like Thinking of Compendiums, all about companion guides about films like It's a Wonderful Life and Citizen Kane and now the Godfather. We're also going to hear from Elise Graham today. You may recall her from our conversation about her work book and dagger. She's going to stop by to tell us all about her choice for the last book she will ever read. But first, let's hear what Karen Spence found when she put together her new book on the spectacular films known as the Godfather Saga. Okay. Joining me now is Karen Spence, who is an engineer with a graduate degree in classical Mediterranean archaeology. She's also an expert in ancient Rome, mafia history and film. And she's here today to discuss her new book, the Companion Guide to the Godfather, Betrayal, Loyalty and Family. Karen Spence, welcome to the history of literature.
- [05:13]
Karen Spence
Thank you so much for having me on. I'm excited to be here.
- [05:16]
Jack Wilson
So let's start with your history with the film. When did you first watch the Godfather movies?
- [05:22]
Karen Spence
Well, you know, I come from a family of readers. We weren't really into film or we rarely had the television on. So I saw the film much later than most people did. I was home from university in the late 90s 98 and I was terribly ill. It was Thanksgiving and so I went upstairs to bed to, you know, like a self imposed exile for my family. And you know, famously there's a channel that plays the Godfather movies on a loop throughout Thanksgiving. I was a bit of a captive audience and I decided to watch the films. And I guess like everyone, I thought that they were just a masterpiece. I Think I watched them at least three times in a row.
- [06:00]
Jack Wilson
Wow, okay. And so you didn't have a lot of comparison of other gangster movies and. And so on. But what. What was it about these that kind of stood out for you? What made you think they were masterpieces?
- [06:13]
Karen Spence
Well, my first question as I watched them, I thought, how does a large group of psychopaths, sociopaths, pathologically greedy? How do they organize themselves enough to infiltrate entire government? How does that happen? I wondered that. But then I had some other initial observations. I was surprised at how. How little violence there was for a Mafia film. I was. I was shocked at how corporate it felt. There's so many scenes that occur in boardrooms. It's not something that you expect for the Mafia genre. I wondered about the women, the female characters. I thought my first impression was, why does a Mama Corleone have something to say about her children becoming murderers? She never really objected to that. And I felt, at least by 1990 standards, that the female characters felt a little bit weak. And it was only later I realized why that was the case. But overall, I thought the character of Michael Corleone had the strongest and probably most compelling psychological aura I had ever seen presented on film, at least that time and even now today. And I loved, especially in part to the moral ambiguity of the films. So, like everyone else during the first round of seeing the movies, I thought that they were about the Mafia. But then I was watching Part two, and there's a scene where Hyman Roth is on a balcony in Cuba and all the mobsters have met to divide the country of Cuba, and they're dividing up Cuban operations and they're draining wealth from the island. This is all based on historical fact. And they're metaphorically dividing the country of Cuba. When you see the cake and Hyman Roth made this quote, he said, smaller piece. I remember seeing that for the first time and really being taken back by the smaller piece quote, because at first it highlights Hyman's frugality, and in a way it does, because character is based on Meyer Lansky, who's a mobster. That was profoundly greedy, profoundly greediness in its history. But then I realized that there was a deeper meaning. And for me, it was. I asked myself, when is a smaller piece of anything ever satisfied? The insatiable greed of the corruption. And then the other thing that really fascinated me about the movie was, you know, I thought, how does a movie about murder, extortion, union fixing, narco trafficking, subverting the law? How does it seem so glamorous in the beginning, how was I able to connect to the Corleone after what, even after they killed a horse? How could I connect to this? How did the Godfather movies get the audience to sympathize?
- [08:47]
Jack Wilson
Right. Well, it seems like the two things you've talked about there, they seem connected to me. Where one of the appeals of these films is that it. It kind of presents and maybe invents a world where we. Even though these. We know these people are killers and they're outlaws and so on, they act according to this code of honor. There is a value system in place. There is a kind of a preference for people who can limit themselves, who, you know, they say, we're not going to kill outside of people who aren't in the business, or we're going to not traffic in heroin. We're going to stick to the lesser crimes or the less damaging to society crimes and so on. And it feels like within this world, we see people who can set limits on themselves, and we see people who can't play by those rules and who do get too greedy and grasping and so on. And so we kind of. We have all of our. We project into it what we see as well. There's good guys and bad guys, even within a world where everybody we're seeing is a bad guy. So what else did you come up with for why these people are glamorous folk heroes, even as their toting guns around and. And offing people and so on?
- [10:21]
Karen Spence
Well, in my research, I found that the Mafia is just the context for the film. So the films really aren't the Mafia. The films are about. It's a family drama. It's about greed, capitalism, and succession. In fact, when Francis Ford Koblo first read Mario Puza's novel, well, I have to say, the audiences, usually audience members who've seen the film and then read the novel are usually very surprised by how graphic it is.
- [10:47]
Jack Wilson
Yeah.
- [10:47]
Karen Spence
And. And that's how Francis Ford Coppola read it the first time. But then when he read it the second time, he said, no, this is more of a family melodrama that's very similar to Shakespeare's King Lear. And so that's why when he and Puza wrote this, all the scripts together, that's what they kept in mind. So it's not really about the Mafia at all. There's a much deeper meaning to these films, and that's why they've endured for more than 50 years. Yeah.
- [11:16]
Jack Wilson
The inheritance and who's going to take over for the Marlon Brando Character.
- [11:22]
Karen Spence
Yes.
- [11:23]
Jack Wilson
Brando has a really interesting quote where he says, I thought it would be an interesting contrast to play him talking about his character as a gentleman, unlike Al Capone, who beat up people with baseball bats. I saw him as a man of substance, tradition, dignity, refinement, a man of unerring instinct who just happened to live in a violent world, which kind of ties into all of the things that we're talking about. It does seem like Coppola's. I mean, part of his genius, in addition to his visual style and his direction and everything, is that he could take a look at these Puzo novels and see that in it and kind of bring out, I feel like cream rose to the top. Or he was able to skim the cream from the top to. To take what a lot of people viewed as trashy and vulgar and turn it into something that we now regard as one of the landmarks of the 20th century.
- [12:23]
Karen Spence
Yes.
- [12:24]
Jack Wilson
So where was Coppola in his career? Why did Robert Evans choose him to direct these films?
- [12:31]
Karen Spence
Okay. Well, to begin with, Paramount Distribution was very reluctant to distribute a film because they had had a string of recent mob film failures. So from a financial perspective, that wasn't a good thing. So Robert Evans and Peter Bart, who's very much an unsung hero in all of this, he was the vice president of production. Robert Evans was the head of the studio of Paramount, decided that the reason the other films didn't do so well was that they didn't feature Italians or were directed by Italians. They said to themselves, it has to be ethnic to the core, and we want the audience to be able to smell the spaghetti. Very famous.
- [13:07]
Jack Wilson
Yeah.
- [13:08]
Karen Spence
So in 1969, there wasn't a single Italian American director of the recognizable body of work. And even Coppola, he only had three esoteric films under his belt and he was nearly bankrupt. And he didn't want to direct it because at first he did feel the materials rather vulgar. George Lucas was his business partner, and he said, we have to do it. We need the money. So. And so Peter Bart went to Evans and said, coppola has agreed to direct the film on the one condition that it's a metaphor for capitalism. And that. That didn't go over so well at first, but Evans did capitulate because they wanted an anti interactor.
- [13:49]
Jack Wilson
Yeah, that's not the kind of thing that a producer thinks is going to put bodies in seats.
- [13:56]
Karen Spence
Right. I mean, there's the whole. The first film really became a proxy war because. Because Evans and Coppola didn't have a great relationship. So the first film became more of a proxy war between the two men. For instance, on one of the scripts, Evans wrote that he felt the. The sexual aspects of the novel and that the violence in the novel should come forward more while we're filming. And so we see, for instance, the very over the top scene where Connie's beaten up by her husband is so over the top in order that this was a response to what Evans had asked Coppola to do. Because at this point, Evans was threatening Coppola almost on the daily about getting fired if he didn't become more graphic in what he was producing.
- [14:40]
Jack Wilson
Yeah, I didn't realize until I read your book that Robert Evans had been friends with Mario Puzo even before the Godfather books came out, which I had no idea was so early. What was the nature of their friendship and how instrumental was Evans in helping to bring these books to life?
- [15:01]
Karen Spence
Well, so friendship might be a little overgenerous of a word. In Pooh's memoirs, he credits Evans for believing this book and says, in fact, I have a quote from his. His incredible memoirs. He talked like a man who could charm your grandmother and foreclose on her house on the same afternoon and liked him immediately. As for Evans, he claimed it was love at first sight. During their first meeting, they bonded over a mutual love of gambling and cigars. So what was interesting about their first meeting is that Puzo said that Evans, you know, talked pictures, not literature. And he explained how literature could translate to film because Puzo had never had this experience before. So regardless, the two men respect each other, and Puza certainly respected Evan's instincts. But that wasn't part. Puza wasn't part of the Hollywood party circuit that Evans thrived in. So they weren't exactly great friends outside of film nagging. Although I'd say Robert Evans contributions were terribly underrated and probably overshadowed, partly due to the notoriously hostile relationship and the focus on the hostile relationship between him and Francis Ford Coppola. But he did do some really great things. He greenlit the movie. He insisted that Italian cast and director that the audience be able to smell the spaghetti. So we had to have an Italian cast, an Italian director. He appointed a studio financial watchdog to watch the budget to make sure it didn't go or. So he managed his studio very well in that Coppola can be very emotional. He tried and kept him. He kept Coppola within boundaries and probably most importantly to Paramount, he secured an impressive 84% of the film's profits. So he was one of the many underrated people that, that helped make these films the success that they are.
- [16:56]
Jack Wilson
And we, I mean, there's. There's often a tendency. We kind of appreciate a director like Francis Ford Coppola, and we kind of view them as the presiding force over a masterpiece and so on. And we kind of. We hear the anecdotes and we think, oh, why didn't they just leave him alone? It was Francis Ford Coppola, of course, his taste should have been deferred to and his decision making and, oh, my God, this. You almost ruined it with this and so on. But. But then we see what happens when, When a. A person like that gets full creative control. And sometimes it's not always for the best. Sometimes it is better to have somebody who's there, who's thinking a little bit more about the public and the market and so on. And, and it. I mean, you. You can't argue with the results. Whatever the input was of Evans and, and Peter Bart, somehow they managed to harness Coppola's genius and get these movies made.
- [17:56]
Karen Spence
I think that's a great way of putting it.
- [17:58]
Jack Wilson
Okay, so let's pivot a little bit and talk about your book. So there have been a lot of books about the Godfather. What approach did you take and how does it differ from the books that have come before?
- [18:09]
Karen Spence
Okay, well, it's quite different. Other books will focus on the conflict on the set, and I do that too, because I know people wanted to read about that. But sometimes the other books will shy away from the real life historical events that many of the scenes are based on or alluded to. See Mario Puzo, people have this impression that he's the street guy, was raised in a rather rough environment. You know, his father abandoned the family when he was 12, and his mother raised him and his six siblings in Hell's Kitchen. And. And he was surrounded a little bit with organized crime, but he really wanted to get away from that. In fact, he joined the military to get away from that. So Puo is an intellectual, and he's a very earthy person, but an intellectual. So instead of basing the film on things that he knew about the Mafia from when he was growing up, he went to the library and he learned about all of these historical events and real life historical events, and that's what he based the novel on, and that's certainly what the films are based on. So I focused a lot on the real life historical events that all the scenes are based or allude to. And so by digging into the real life events, because once you understand the inspiration, the films become much better understood and much deeper for the audience members. So one example, I'm often asked about the near fatal attempt on Frank Pantagenet's life in Part two, because the scene is confusing until you understand what inspired it. It's based on the real life assassination attempt. A mobster, Larry Gallo. In 1961, he was asked to meet at a bar called the Sahara Lounge in Brooklyn with Joe Pravaci, because they were at the time they were born. And in fact Provoche's bodyguard gave him a hundred dollar bill and said that was just the start of what was in store if they can come to a peaceful agreement. So as Larry chatted with the bartender, someone emerged from behind him and tied a rope around his neck. Unfortunately, a police officer happened to walk in and saw Gallo's light sticking out from the end of the bar, which is very reminiscent of the scene in The Godfather Part 2. Men burst in the bar and the police officer's partner was shot in the face as they tried to exit the lounge. And Gallo survived. This violence spills out in the street and I always point out to people that you can see for a split second that the police officer is helping his partner, who's clearly been shot in the face. This is just one of many examples of Mario Kuzos and Coppola's dedication to historic reality in the films. The other thing with my books is we only hear about the New York side of things. But the Sicilians were taking notes too. About 15 to 17% of the films overall were filmed in Sicily, and there's a lot there. In fact, I wrote another book about that called the Godfather, Lover's Guide to Sicily, which is based entirely on the Sicilian scenes. But in the book we're talking about today, I dug into all kinds of sources, everything from archives in Sicily to old bureaucratic records, firsthand accounts, and more that I've never seen written about in other books about the Godfather. They they neglect Sicily in general. Now, in fairness, obtaining sources from Italy wasn't. Isn't exactly the easiest thing to do. Lastly, I did provide some deep dives into plot points in the film, such as organized crimes, involvement in the drug trade, which cover extensively Mafia's infiltration of the Cuban government, the roles of women in the film, which is often unaddressed in other books, and also the Mafia's entanglement with Hollywood.
- [21:28]
Jack Wilson
Right. So the result, I would say the book is for hardcore fans, but also for people who are less immersed in Godfather lore. And people who maybe have enjoyed the films or might be kind of new to the movies, or have enjoyed them over the years, but haven't read a lot of books or about them and so on. Is that kind of who you were aiming at here?
- [21:49]
Karen Spence
Well, the film has its limitations when it comes to backstories because they're constrained by time, pacing, visual storytelling. So anyone that loves the details that written media is able to achieve, who crave a deeper understanding of the characters, their worlds, their inspirations, they'll definitely enjoy my book. I think any readers with an interest in Mafia history will definitely enjoy the book. And anyone that's interested in Mafia involvement, pre revolutionary Cuba, which is a topic I have a personal obsession with, Las Vegas and Hollywood, they'll enjoy it. Or anyone that's interested in the early 20th century Italian American experience, I think would enjoy the book as well. Yeah, what I did, it's called a companion guide because it follows the film sequentially and it points out details. And I also included all deleted scenes and draft script comparisons because by looking at these draft scripts, you can really see the direction that Coppola and Puzo are going toward. And of course, there are many drafts for all three of the films and it's incredible to see how it's evolved. So I dissected that quite a bit. But it's written in a very accessible way. So if you're a Godfather fan, you're going to enjoy the book, I think, because I'm pointing out a lot of details that people haven't normally noticed. And if you're a Mafia history fan, you'll definitely enjoy the book. But if you're interested in the Sicilian side of things, with the Sicilian side about the filming, but even the bureaucratic notes, which are amazing because nobody thinks that they're going to be read, I read them. And finding out how the Sicilian said about what was going on is also very interesting. I haven't seen that really addressed in other books.
- [23:23]
Jack Wilson
Right, so you mentioned the details that you give along the way. I have one that I noted here, which is, as you're going through the scene by scene breakdown of the movies, we hear, for example, that the cat held by Marlon Brando in the first scene was a stray cat that Coppola found in the Paramount parking lot on the day of filming. And Brando was known to be great with animals and children. So they gave him this cat. And the cat seemed to be perfectly happy sitting there with Brando, although it purred so loudly that they had to go back in and re loop some of Brando's dialogue.
- [23:57]
Karen Spence
People are obsessed with the cat. The cat was not in the script whatsoever. He was just a stray that Coppola happened to find that morning. But, yes, he and Marlon Brando got along very well. One thing I like when he's holding the cat and Buenos Aires says, how much did I pay you? Which was, you know, Buenos Aires very much as straight from his roots as a Sicilian to even admit something like that out loud. And I like how Branagh takes the cat and kind of squeezes it temporarily and then puts it on the. On the table. There's some other details I'd like to point out, if you.
- [24:30]
Jack Wilson
Okay.
- [24:31]
Karen Spence
So my very favorite detail across all three films has to be the visual irony of the book's profiles encouraged by John F. Kennedy. It's sitting in shadow right behind Michael Corleone as he has a meeting with the corrupt Senator Pat Gary in the beginning of Part two. It's not noticeable. You can't read. You can't read it. So you have to be very familiar with the COVID design. And I think I only noticed it after about a dozen watches. But what I love about it is how it underscores the gap between the senator's public image and his real actions. Yeah. There's a couple other details I like to. To mention. When Vito arrives in New York from Sicily as an immigrant, we see the Statue of Liberty behind him. But 45 years later, when Polygado is killed, we see the Statue of Liberty, but her back is turned, like, out of disgust. I love that detail.
- [25:23]
Jack Wilson
Yeah.
- [25:23]
Karen Spence
Also in Sicily, when Michael proposes to Apollonia's father, Coppola directed the actor who played Signor Vitale to straighten his suspenders with his thumbs to let the viewer know that a transaction is about to take place. I think. I think the scenes with Michael Corleone and Al Pacino have been very much romanticized, but it was a very transactional marriage. I mean, you can almost see in her father's eyes that he's coming up with a price. Also, one thing a lot of people don't notice this is that in Sicily, when Michael is looking for his new bride, Apollonia, the first place he thinks to look is the kitchen. But she wasn't in the kitchen. She was in the driver's seat right before she died. And I always found that to be incredible detail.
- [26:09]
Jack Wilson
Yeah. You know, I wanted to just comment a little bit on the profiles, encourage example, because, you know, JFK is such an interesting kind of mirror image of this where his family became wealthy through bootlegging and had a kind of not too far away from the Corleone's really. But then, but then the kids became respectable. And here's JFK as a war hero in World War II who kind of becomes then the President of the United States. And Michael Corleone starts out that's the trajectory that his father has in mind for him. That he's going to be the war hero who then kind of takes the family into respectability. And, and it really is the. You almost see that Kennedy, JFK is the guy who made it out and Michael Corleone is the guy who keeps getting pulled back in.
- [27:09]
Karen Spence
Yeah, there's actually several hidden references to John F. Kennedy throughout the movies. For instance, when Tom and Michael are discussing with Rocco about how to kill Hyman Roth, he says history, if history has told us anything, is that anyone can be killed. And that's, that's actually reference to the thought that the Mafia was involved with the JFK assassination. Although there really isn't enough evidence to support that. But Coppola definitely kept JFK in mind when he was writing the scripts. There's a few other details that people don't notice. For instance, if you look at the Ellis island scene, some of my favorite. In the films, dark makeup was applied under their eyes denote the seasickness that they would have encountered during the weeks long voyage to America. And also some other really interesting things. During the New Year's Eve scenes in Godfather Part 2 you can see the Cubans knocking down the parking meters with bats. And this was based on historical reality. Batista Fulgencio Batista allowed his brother in law to to install meters and openly pocket the proceeds. And parking had previously been free. And this was one of just many grudges that the revolutionaries had toward the Batista regime in Cuba.
- [28:20]
Jack Wilson
Right. Okay, well let's take a quick break.
- [28:22]
Elise Graham
And then come back with more from Karen Spencer. Foreign.
- [28:48]
Jack Wilson
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- [30:53]
Karen Spence
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- [31:41]
Jack Wilson
Okay, we're back. So Karen, let's talk about some of the other historical models and, you know, events and people that were drawn upon by Puzo and Coppola. I wanted to ask about the Hollywood producer Walt, who people might remember. He winds up with the horse's head in his bed. And he was rumored to have been based on Harry Cohn, who was Harry Cohn. And was there truth to that that he had served as the model for Waltz?
- [32:11]
Karen Spence
Well, it's commonly thought that Mario Pusa based Waltz on Harry Cohen, the president of Columbia pictures from the 1920s through the 50s, who had numerous sexual allegations levied against him as well as alleged mob ties during his career. The reality is that Waltz is a composite character based on Harry Cohn and Jack Warner of Warner Brothers Studios. So the involvement of the Mafia in the movie industry is historical, roots dating back to the industry's inception in the 1930s. Studios would enlist gangsters to quell strikes by labor unions, alleging demands that their demands for higher pay were influenced by communism. So once established within the unions themselves, the Mafia, who were always opportunists, began to turn on the studio executives. So the extortion of violence at studios anticipated from unions became a reality once the mob got involved. And this relationship between the Mafia and the Hollywood persisted openly for decades. So there are a lot of stories about Cohen. For instance, in 1957, he asked mobster Mickey Cohen to have the African American singer Sammy Davis, Jr. Either killed or beaten.
- [33:22]
Jack Wilson
Yeah.
- [33:23]
Karen Spence
What happened was, is Cohen had discovered and groomed a young star named Kim Novak, and he wanted her to compete with the wildly popular Marilyn Monroe. So they invested, the studio, invested a tremendous amount of money into cultivating her image, and she was initially successful. But her romantic involvement with Sammy Davis came to light and made the tabloids. So you have to remember, the 1950s was a time when the FBI was still tracking lynchings, and her involvement with a black man threatened her career. But more importantly to Cohen, the studio's investment in her. So, not willing to be embarrassed, Cohen offered a novel solution. He told Sammy Davis that he needed to marry a Black woman within 24 hours. Sammy was legitimately fearful, and he announced his engagement to a black singer named Larae White on stage in Las Vegas that very evening. And they were married soon after. White had offered payment earlier in that day in exchange for a year of marriage and confidentiality from his new wife. And this worked Cohen, coincidentally, he died two months later of a heart attack. And his widow said that it was due to Kim Novak's behavior, Sammy was able to file for divorce. So that's just one story. The other interesting thing is that the Waltz character is also based on. On Jack Warner. And this proved to be a bit controversial when they were filming the scenes, because while the film merely hinted at the deviant sexual behavior of the character, the book was extremely explicit about it. In fact, there are two deleted scenes in the film that make it clear that Boltz was a pedophile. But they were deleted. One of them is very upsetting. So what caused controversy in the set is that in the scene, if you look at the dinner table, it was decorated with a plate of matzo crackers. And some of the crew said they felt uncomfortable with this because it suddenly suggested Jewish heritage for a character that was portrayed as a pedophile. Now, Coppola explained to them that when he worked as a writer at Warner Brothers Studios, he saw matzos on the private dining table of Jack Warner. And so that's why he decided to include that detail. There's also, if you look at it, there's a bottle of ketchup on the table as well. In the novel, Woltz came from a humble background, so eating ketchup with steak is probably a way of visually telling his origin story. But it might have also denoted Woltz's juvenile taste. This all culminates in Khartoum's death and the famous horsehead scene. Original audiences in 1972, when they saw the film, actually gasped when they saw that scene. But what's incredible about it to me is that the audience is still sympathetic to the Corleone because it feels like the killing of a horse is morally justified, since the audience is even more disgusted by a pedophile. And that's really part of the genius of garnering sympathy for the Corleone throughout the entire film.
- [36:19]
Jack Wilson
Yeah, I was going to ask you about that, because it does seem they removed the scenes about him being a pedophile. Right. I don't remember that. Yeah, so it does seem like it is pushing the envelope even farther to say, well, these are brutal people. We're not going to give the audience the outcome of saying, well, he was a pedophile, so he gets what he deserves. It's almost like, no, he. He's getting this just because he's willing to cross the. The Corleone's here, and this is. This is what happens. And. And these are brutal people. And yet the audience is still with them. We're still with Robert Duvall. We're still with, you know, with Brando and the people who ordered it like this. It is this kind of. Maybe it's kind of a fantasy people are living out of. Wouldn't it be great if you could just boss people around and they would do what you wanted or you would come in with the muscle?
- [37:18]
Karen Spence
Yeah, well, you have to look at what the context of the 1970s was. It was high inflation, the oil prices. We had had water grade Vietnam. A lot of people felt disillusioned with Vietnam. They felt that we shouldn't have been in there. And then you watch a movie where someone else is pulling the strings of power against what they think is a system that's corrupt, and it's easier to sympathize.
- [37:46]
Jack Wilson
Now, while we're on the topic of walls and The Hollywood part of Godfather Duvall is out there to line up a part for Johnny Fontaine. And even when I watched the Godfather, I knew enough about Frank Sinatra to know that Frank Sinatra had this lull in his career. And then he had gotten a part in Hollywood that had helped resurrect his career, and also that he had these sort of mob ties because of his singing in the clubs and everything in his, you know, in his nightclub years. And those had all been owned by gangsters and so on. But how close is Johnny Fontaine, historically speaking, to Frank Sinatra? And did Sinatra ever comment on what he thought of the film?
- [38:33]
Karen Spence
Well, I actually read a lot about Sinatra and his involvement in the film. It's more than people think. Puzzo definitely modeled the character in Frank Sinatra. So there's a story that illustrates how Sinatra felt. When Mara Puso and the producer of the film, Al Ready and others were attending a birthday party at a New York eatery, they found themselves seated within viewing distance of Sinatra himself. At Puzo. And Sinatra had never met, so a friend of Puzo's insisted on making an introduction. And Sinatra, who's extremely well known for his quick temper, reacted very angrily and verbally confronted the author. At the time, the film adaptation had not yet begun production, but rumors about the real life inspiration behind Johnny Fontaine, which was basically a fading singer losing his voice, were already circulating. Sinatra was displeased with this portrayal and caused a huge scene in this run strand. It's almost very embarrassing for Mario Puza. And it's true what you said. The story behind Luca Brasi holding a gun to a bandleader's head to get Johnny Fontaine's contract terminated is also definitely associated with Sinatra in his early career. Sinatra signed under bandleader Tommy Dorsey, and as Sinatra's career skyrocketed, he wanted to be released from the contract to secure a greater percentage of his income. So Dorsey resisted this. Understandably. Sinatra's real life godfather was Willie Moretti, who was the underboss of the Genovese family. And he went and held a gun to Dorsey's head and forced him to sell Sinatra's contract for a mere dollar. Believe it or not, though, once the anticipation for the film grew, Sinatra actually offered himself up for the role of Don Vito Corleone, which was understandably rejected. But when everything was said and done after the release of the films, Sinatra's said that it was an insulting caricature, clearly based on his own career and his alleged connection, Stop Organized Crime.
- [40:30]
Jack Wilson
Yeah, that's interesting, because I watched Guys and Dolls Recently. And Sinatra and Brando apparently did not get along well on the set of that film, which I'm a little more sympathetic to Sinatra there because he is the singer, after all. And so it probably rankled him a little bit to see Brando taking what's sort of a more prominent part and everything. But clearly, in the Godfather, if you could have Brando or Sinatra as Vito Corleone, you'd take Brando every time. Okay, so on the topic of Vito, who are the real life inspirations for Vito? And there's one in particular, having read your book, that I want to make sure you mention. You call it the most surprising influence of all in Puzo's creation of Vito Corleone.
- [41:27]
Karen Spence
And it's the one I'm always the most excited about, because, believe it or not, the biggest inspiration for Vito Corleone was Mario Puza's own mother. Yeah, and he's on the right. He's on the record for saying that she. He actually wrote a book about his mother, and it's his favorite book called Fortunate Pilgrim. It came before the Godfather, and it's more or less his mother's immigrant story. And, you know, as I said, there was a. They had a rough beginning. She had seven children. His. His father abandoned the family when Mario was. She raised them on her own in Hell's Kitchen in a tenement. And her strong maternal leadership had a major influence on Mario. In fact, there are several scenes in the films that actually happened to her. Somebody did throw some guns into her bathroom window, which she offered to hide. And she was later offered a rug as a reward. So she sent Mario's brother a retriever who didn't realize he would be helping steal it. And we see that in the film.
- [42:26]
Jack Wilson
Yeah, right, right.
- [42:28]
Karen Spence
The line, an offer he can't refuse was something that she often said.
- [42:34]
Jack Wilson
Yeah, incredible, incredible. I mean, there's a lot of often quoted remarks in the Godfather, but that one in particular has really become part of the cultural landscape.
- [42:48]
Karen Spence
Oh, absolutely. I mean, the character of Vito Corleone was also crafted on several real mobsters as well. Also provided inspiration, like, for instance, mid 20th century crime boss Giuseppe Joe Parvace, who was known as Joe the olive oil king, headed the Brooklyn Profaci family. In 1925, he had found an olive oil import, export business in New York City, and that served as a successful legal front for his legal activities. Very similar Genkov Oil in the Godfather films. Carlo Gambino is another obvious influence. Like, Vito Gambino was politically connected and he controlled the labor unions in several industries, including, interestingly, trucking in the garment industry. So outwardly, he had this deal and die policy when it came to narcotics, which is what we see with Vito as well, because he felt it threatened his police connections. Now, one thing I always like to point out is a lot of people, audience members, think that the ruthless Vito Genovese was an inspiration, but the reality is that he had very little in common with the fictional Vito Corleone outside maybe bootlegging during Prohibition. There was an interview in the 70s and Coppola had misspoke about that. And it's sort of become this rumor now that Vito Genovese was an inspiration, but he definitely wasn't. The only thing I can think of were Genovese may have been an influence was he was awarded the order of Saints Mars Lazarus, and he was also made a commendatore after donating to an otherwise aiding Italian fascist, Benito Mussolini. So that's very reminiscent of the opening scene of Godfather Part 3, where Michael also receives an award from the church. But as far as Vito Genovese being influenced for Vito Corleone, this is simply not true. Now, one thing I love Vito's voice, though. The producer gave Marlon Brando some FBI recordings of the raspy voiced Frank Costello who headed up the Luciano family. And Costello is famous because his hands were filled for the 1951 Cafarva hearings, which drew a significant American viewership in the 50s. Contrary to popular belief, the appliance inserted into Brando's mouth to give him that bulldog look didn't alter his voice. So he did base the voice on Frank Costello, who's got a very distinct voice. And then lastly, Coppola and Puzo avoided associating with real life Mafia figures at all times. But famously, Brando and James Kahn, who played Sonny, they were very open to discussions with local moff figures when they were developing their characters too. It's just a common question that people want to know. It's one that I've noticed people often get wrong. So I really dug into this topic in my book to sort of set the story straight if I can, just a little bit.
- [45:39]
Jack Wilson
Right. So while we're talking about the Mafia, they. In the book, in the film, the Mafia is portrayed with this honor code. Is that present in the actual Mafia?
- [45:52]
Karen Spence
Well, it's long been said that no group was more fascinated, appreciative, or proud of the Godfather than Mafia. But the ideas of rules of conduct is more idealized in literature and film than it's really practiced in Reality, they do have an honor code. And I think honor is a very generous word there. And I'd say that betrayal is probably the greatest offense. But the effectiveness and sincerity has always just been shaped by context, by opportunity, by individual ambition, if anything. And a lot of people don't understand this. Perpetuating this idea of the Mafia having an honor code, especially in Sicily, is weaponized to hurt ordinary Siciliance. Omerda, which is the code of silence. And not cooperating with authorities has really become part of the broader Sicilian mindset. And communities are affected by organized crime, which hinders justice for everyday citizens. So this idea of a Mafia honor code really is, I think, more of a myth. But it's useful to the Mafia when it comes to involving ordinary citizens. I mean, there are innocent Sicilians who are in jail because there's so much pressure by their community not to exonerate themselves and say what they really saw.
- [47:03]
Jack Wilson
Right.
- [47:03]
Karen Spence
And it's not the Mafia that's pressuring, it's the other citizens that are doing this. So the Mafia code or the myth of the Mafia code is very much a weapon.
- [47:10]
Jack Wilson
Yeah. I wanted to ask you about the women in the movies and Diane Keaton and her performance has. It's always kind of divided fans, but I've never been sure if that's an attack on her and her acting or if it's. If it's people are. What they're really objecting to is the character that she played. And viewing her kind of the way in the TV show Breaking Bad, Walter White's wife Skyler took all this criticism and people hated the actress and all this. And really what they were. I think what was behind it was they thought she's getting in our guy's way. We have this hero we're rooting for and she's the one dragging him down. And that kind of gets translated into anger at the actress as well. But I was wondering, do we know what Coppola or Robert Evans or the other cast members thought of Keaton's performance? Did they think she wasn't doing a good job as an actress or was she delivering what they wanted her to do? And what do you think is behind the criticism of her?
- [48:14]
Karen Spence
Well, it's something I really address a lot in the book. It's atop the women and characters and the actresses in the films I think are under addressed in a lot of other books. The first thing I think of when I think of Diane Keaton is the. The mental gymnastics that I think people will go through just to disparage the character. It never fails to amaze me. Coppola, he loved Keaton's quirkiness. He first saw her in the 1970 movie Lovers and Other Strangers, and he thought she would contrast well with the Corleone world and infuse the character with more of a believability and an emotional complexity. And I think he was right. Bobby Evans liked her quite a bit and recognized that she brought a. A unique energy to the film. I have to say, going through, when I was researching the books and seeing interviews, Coppola, whenever he's asked about Diane Keaton, I don't think I've ever heard him mention Diane Keaton without using the word genius in the same sentence. He really has a great admiration for it. Now, according to her, on the set, she felt like an outsider, and in hindsight, she said that it wasn't her best performance. But in fairness, the character is pretty much powerless in the first film and more of a passive observer. But of course, she has a lot more agency in the second film. It's a much more substantial role. Now, when it comes to women in films like this, there's one thing I really, really wanted to point out is that there was never once a time in any of the films where the power of a woman, sexual or otherwise, influenced any male character to truly change his ways. The films are explicitly about the endurance of patriarchal power. And I think that's part of the reason why the female characters in the films feel so weak. I think that there's this expectation that the women will somehow redeem men from the cycle of crime. But we never see that happen in these films, and that always reflects poorly on the characters. She was very scrutinized on the set. I mean, even in the first scene that was filmed in front of Best and Co, where her and Al Pacino were walking out of the store down the street. Gordon Willis noticed. He said she walked like a cult, and he only filmed her from the waist up. And he actually suggested maybe she should be fired. But all the other actors that worked with her really enjoyed her. She's known as a very consistent actress and she definitely had particular chemistry with Al Pacino.
- [50:30]
Jack Wilson
Yeah, it is interesting with the women because they are. In some ways, they're central to the plot, but only as passive figures like. Like Talia Shire. The sister is. She's. She's very important for the machinery of the plot, but only because, you know, her brother is going to protect her and her husband is going to abuse her and the mother is kind of similar. She's central to Godfather too, but only because she's alive that you know that Michael says he's not going to do anything to Fredo until Mama Corleone is dead and his respect for her and all of that. But it's all in Michael's mind. It's not that she's pulling the strings or that she's taking over for the family or anything like that.
- [51:18]
Karen Spence
The women in the films are more passive and that's why they're discredited as weak characters. Because there's this expectation that they're going to be the redeemers, that they're going to turn these men and they're not ever able to. And that reflects real life. Really it does.
- [51:34]
Jack Wilson
So whose idea was it to have Michael order the killing of Fredo? I understand that that was not among the creative principles. That was not necessarily a agreement there.
- [51:48]
Karen Spence
Well, see, okay, there's a lot of lore behind how Fredo's death was written. So first of all, it was Coppola's idea. The discussion about Fredo's death was in person in California. And the two men, the two part Fusion and Coppola, had this unique collaboration style where they rarely were in the same room together. So they would write their parts on the script and then mail them to each other. And then the other person would, the other writer would put notes in the margins and they would send them back and forth. So this is through now, but the Fredo's death scene, actually they were in California together in the same room, which is great because it's so pivotal.
- [52:24]
Jack Wilson
Yeah.
- [52:25]
Karen Spence
So there's a rumor that Puzo really hated killing Fredo. And it's very much overstated because when Coppola proposed killing Fredo, Puzo was slightly resistant in the beginning, but he quickly decided it was necessary for the story. So any rumor that Puzo hated killing Fredo is overstated. From behind the scenes accounts, both Puzo and Coppola agreed that Fredo's death had to happen for the story's emotional weight. But they debated when to do it. The popular belief is that Michael, the character, delays the death because he understands that the grief that losing another son would cause his mother and he doesn't want to put her through that. So that's why he waits until his mother has died. Yet when Puzo and Coppola discussed the idea of delaying Fredo's death until after his mother's passing, the reason wasn't that Michael was unwilling to kill him sooner. Rather, the writers wanted to Avoid provoking audience anger by showing Mama Corleone suffering additional unnecessary grief. Placing Fredo's death before his mother's would have risked that audience reaction. And that's what the writers had in mind when they were writing the death scene. So keep in mind, for Puza and Coppola, it wasn't in their minds as they wrote the screenplay at all that Michael would show any mercy to anyone, even to his brother. In fact, I recall Puza using that word, mercy, as in Michael's not capable of it when they decided on Freddie's future. So there's a famous quote. Poos and Coppola said that Michael wasn't even a human. He was just a shell. He was a living corpse. So if anything, sometimes this gets missed. Waiting until after their mother died made Michael look more calculating. And on a practical level, for the writers, it would have been difficult to write Mama Corleone's character as a grieving mother if she lived to see Fredo die. So as an aside, I wanted to point out, I don't think the character ever regretted having his brother killed. I think he regretted the need to make the decision in the first place. We see this confirmed in his confession in Part three because he outright says he doesn't regret his sins. He says, what's the point of confessing if I don't repent? And then later he says, I ordered the death of my brother because he injured me. So even during his confession, Michael justifies why he needed to have his brother killed. So that really reconfirms what the writers had in mind, that there was no mercy with him.
- [54:52]
Jack Wilson
It almost because of the world they live in. I've always viewed it as almost like an act of self defense, because it is this thing of you can't let something, a transgression like that slide or the whole thing will come toppling down and you'll be at the other end of the killing because people who will sense the weakness are going to move in. And Michael really, it does seem like he really has no choice.
- [55:22]
Karen Spence
I don't think he had a choice in it. Throughout the entire movies, we see Freitas plotting against his brother. The focus is a lot on the Tahoe plotting with Roth, but really where he really plotted against his brother was in Part two when he didn't tell Michael Corleone that Senator Quadstedt, who was on the Senate panel, was in Ross Pocket. That set Michael Corleone up for five counts of perjury. And he would have definitely pleaded the fifth had he known that there was somebody on that board working against him so actively. And Fratern knew that. No, Fredo knew that. Because in the incredibly beautiful scene in the boathouse where they're having an argument, their very last discussion, probably, he says, you know, I didn't know anything, and then finally admits, okay, well, you know, Quitstadt's working for Hyman Roth. And. And that's really the. The biggest betrayal because, you know, he went into a Senate hearing not knowing that information wouldn't. And he should have told him. Fredo never had any. He. He gave the information that almost killed Michael Corleone, has shot his. His wife and possibly his child. And even after that, he didn't feel bad. He didn't feel bad enough about it to confide in his brother that there was more behind the story. So it's definitely something that had to be done.
- [56:38]
Jack Wilson
Fredo does have a choice. He could have followed Michael. He could have stayed in the family. He could have accepted his role and all of that. And he's the one who kind of has sealed his own fate by taking on his brother in ways that, you know, whether he did it because he wanted to be recognized as the older brother or whatever it was, but he's the one who kind of makes decisions and ends up paying the consequences.
- [57:08]
Karen Spence
Well, that's what I love about the scene in Cuba when the revolution has begun, and Michael says to his brother, come with me. You're still my brother. And Fredo and John Cassel, who is a brilliant physical actor, looks over his shoulder, and then he looks forward, and then he leaves. And I really think that that was the point when Fredo's death was sealed.
- [57:32]
Jack Wilson
Yeah, it is such a great film. It's astonishing to me how many years ago it was made, because I feel like if it came out this year, it would be the event of the 21st century. And here it is. It's been older than 50 years. I was kind of looking back through Hollywood history and wondering how far you'd have to go. What are we now, 52 years, 53 years that the Godfather came out. And so I looked back at a similar time period before the Godfather to see what movies were like 53 years before it. And you get back into the biggest movie from that year was Broken Blossoms, which is a. A D.W. griffith silent film. So you're really, you know, in the same amount of time. We had so many advances in movies, and then the Godfather is reached such a peak. I'm not sure that we've really advanced beyond it in Many ways, even though there have been, you know, the rise of computer graphics and so on, but it's still, you still can't really top the look and the sound and the acting and the story of the Godfather.
- [58:49]
Karen Spence
I agree. The other thing, gangster movies thrive at times when there's economic uncertainty. In fact, in a lot of ways, I think mob movies are an economic indicator. Gangster films accounted for more than 20% of Hollywood output during the Great Depression. And in the 70s, at first we had the oil crisis, disillusionment, Vietnam, Watergate. And it's interesting because even during COVID Sopranos reruns became one of the top viewing choices for audience members sitting at home. So the time period really does. Not only the films were obviously a masterpiece, but the time period really that it was in and the way that the audience was thinking about things as they watched the movies really factors into this success as well.
- [59:36]
Jack Wilson
Well, the book is called the Companion Guide to the Godfather Trilogy, Betrayal, Loyalty and Family. Karen Spence, thank you so much for joining me on the history of literature.
- [59:46]
Karen Spence
Thank you. It's an absolute honor. So good, so good, so good.
- [60:03]
Jack Wilson
Score.
- [60:03]
Karen Spence
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Jack Wilson
Because there's always something new.
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Karen Spence
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Jack Wilson
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Karen Spence
Jack. Jack and Coke. Shot of Jack. Jack Daniels, please.
- [60:47]
Jack Wilson
Right away. That's what makes Jack Jack.
- [60:50]
Jeff Umbro
Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org Jack Daniels and Old Number 7 are registered trademarks. Tennessee Whiskey 40 alcohol by volume. Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee.
- [61:13]
Jack Wilson
And finally today, back in episode 668, Elise Graham and I had a fascinating conversation about the scholars and librarians who were drafted into the world of espionage to fight Hitler's Third Reich. After she and I discussed that, I asked her this special question. Okay. Joining me now is Elise Graham, an expert in the story of the library rats who became World War II spies as recounted in her book, Book and Dagger. Elise, this question comes from a listener who asks, what do you want your last book to be? This will be the last book you will ever read. You can either choose One that exists or describe one that has not yet been written.
- [62:01]
Elise Graham
Oh, goodness. Well, there are a couple of different ways to go into this one. Right. I could choose the book that's absolutely dire in order to convince myself not to be sad that I'm shuffling off this mortal coil.
- [62:18]
Jack Wilson
Things were not so great here. Time to leave. That's one option.
- [62:26]
Elise Graham
Some books you savor, you know, you want to read them and then meditate upon them. And I can't choose that one because I will be dead after I've read this book. Right.
- [62:35]
Jack Wilson
Yeah, right. It's not one that if you read it and then you say, the good thing about this book is after I read it, it changes the way I think about things. And it stayed with me for months afterwards. That's not in the cards this time around.
- [62:51]
Elise Graham
And I can't pick like, you know, a book that would be incredibly valuable for me to have read as a scholar. For instance, like, you know, the full length of Antony and Cleopatra or something like that, a lost book, because I can't write about it afterward because I'm dead. It was a very challenging question. You know, I've been enjoying reading Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke. I've read it before, but it's just nice. It is one of those books that you think about afterward, but it has this like wonderful sense of humor and a voice that comes out of very close attention to the way that people spoke and thought in the 18th century. I think that as a kind of, what would you say, like a bedtime book. Right, yeah, but the last bedtime book. Right. I think that would be acceptable.
- [63:44]
Jack Wilson
And that has also been made into a miniseries, I believe.
- [63:49]
Elise Graham
That's right.
- [63:50]
Jack Wilson
Have you enjoyed that as well?
- [63:52]
Elise Graham
I did enjoy it. I mean, well, it's. British productions are always like three very ill funded episodes and American productions are always 40 overfunded episodes. Right. But the miniseries format was very good for this book. I thought it was well acted. I thought that they understood the love of books that drives one of the characters. One of his major motivations is that he doesn't want anybody to take his books, which is completely comprehensible and needs no further explanation as far as I'm concerned. So, yeah, I actually, I enjoyed that very much.
- [64:27]
Jack Wilson
Okay, so that's Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell.
- [64:32]
Elise Graham
I think it's Norrell in the minifig. But I can only do. Yeah. You know how when you. You get a pronunciation in your head. Exactly.
- [64:41]
Jack Wilson
By Susanna Clark. Elise Graham, thank you so much for joining me. On the History of Literature.
- [64:47]
Elise Graham
Thank you.
- [64:52]
Jack Wilson
Okay, there we go. That's going to do it for this episode of the History of Literature. My thanks to Elise Graham and Karen Spence for joining me today. You can sign up for our newsletter@historyofliterature.com or our Patreon account where you can join the other Patreon members who are getting a low ad version of the podcast. You can do that@patreon.com Literature I'm Jack Wilson. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next time.
- [66:23]
Reese Gorman
Hi, it's Reese Gorman, Congressional reporter and host of the brand new podcast On Notice. This is the new podcast from Notice, the nonpartisan newsroom covering politics and policy in Washington, dc. Each week I'll bring you real conversations with members of Congress and those who make the Hill run, and it's packed into just 30 minutes so you can learn a lot without taking too much time out of your busy day. Join me for On Notice. That's Notice spelled N o t u s available every Monday wherever you get your podcast or on YouTube.
- [66:58]
Jeff Umbro
You might be curious what it takes from equipment to general know how to make a podcast like this come to life. Maybe you're interested in making your own series as your New Year's resolution? Which is why you should check out my show, Podcast Perspectives. The award winning series hosted by me, Jeff Umbro and produced by the poglomerate, recently named the best podcast production and marketing agency by PR Daily Podcast Perspectives and explores the audio industry through conversations with the experts behind the podcasts you love from the Washington post, iHeart, Pushkin, LA and beyond. We discuss everything from how to produce the best series to how to monetize and grow your shows to reach more audiences. If you're looking for a place to start, check out our recent Podcast Predictions episode where we bring on podcast leaders like Lemonada's Jessica Cordova, Kramer Pushkin's Greta Cohn, Bumper's Dan Misner, NHPR's Rebecca Lavoy, and NASA's Katie Conant to share inspiring takeaways for 2026. Podcast Perspectives is designed to be approachable and actionable for anyone, regardless of podcasting experience. So follow Podcast Perspectives with Jeff Umbro on your favorite podcast app today.