Podcast Summary

Podcast: The History of Literature
Episode: 759 – The Godfather (with Karen Spence) | My Last Book with Elyse Graham
Host: Jacke Wilson
Guests: Karen Spence (author, engineer, expert in ancient Rome, mafia history & film), Elyse Graham (author, historian)
Date: December 18, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Jacke Wilson dives deep into the enduring mystique of The Godfather films with Karen Spence, whose new book, The Companion Guide to the Godfather: Betrayal, Loyalty and Family, offers fresh historical and cinematic analysis of the trilogy. The discussion unpacks the films' complex portrayals of family, power, and morality, the genuine events and people influencing Mario Puzo and Francis Ford Coppola, plus the creative tensions behind the scenes. The episode concludes with author Elyse Graham’s thoughtful pick for the “last book” she’d ever read, rounding out an exploration of both cinematic and literary legacies.

The Allure and Depth of The Godfather

[01:41 – 12:22]

• Cultural and Cinematic Kick-off: The episode opens with reflections on why The Godfather films remain so deeply compelling, especially as holiday watches and as objects of critical and popular fascination.

• Karen Spence’s First Encounter

  • Karen watched the trilogy as a university student home sick during Thanksgiving, compelled by loops on TV and immediately recognizing their status as "a masterpiece."
  • Quote [05:22, Karen Spence]:
    “Famously, there’s a channel that plays the Godfather movies on a loop throughout Thanksgiving. I was a bit of a captive audience and I decided to watch the films. And I guess like everyone, I thought that they were just a masterpiece.”

• First Impressions

  • Surprised at minimal explicit violence for a mafia film; the confrontations feel more corporate—lots of boardroom scenes.
  • Noted women’s roles seemed weak at first glance, but found nuance upon later consideration.
  • Michael Corleone instantly struck her as one of the most compelling psychological portraits in cinema.
  • The films’ moral ambiguity and glimmers of a “code of honor” are central, inviting the audience’s empathy for deeply flawed figures.

• Cinematic Metaphors & Deeper Themes

  • The Cuba/birthday cake scene with Hyman Roth stands out as a metaphor for corporate greed and the carving up of nations—rooted in real history.
  • Quote [07:56, Karen Spence]:
    “When is a smaller piece of anything ever satisfied the insatiable greed of the corruption?”
  • The audience is seduced by the glamour and family drama, only to confront the consequences of murder and betrayal.

Beyond Mafia—Family, Capitalism, and Shakespearean Tragedy

[10:20 – 12:22]

• Not About the Mafia

  • Both Puzo’s novel and Coppola’s adaptation transcend the Mafia genre; The Godfather is more about family, succession, and American capitalism.
  • Quote [10:47, Karen Spence]:
    “No, this is more of a family melodrama that's very similar to Shakespeare's King Lear.”

• Transforming “Trash” to Art

  • Coppola, initially resistant to the novel’s vulgarity, saw potential for something Shakespearean and human.
  • Quote [12:22, Jacke Wilson]:
    “He was able to skim the cream from the top to take what a lot of people viewed as trashy and vulgar and turn it into something that we now regard as one of the landmarks of the 20th century.”

Production Battles: Coppola, Evans, and Puzo’s Path

[12:23 – 18:09]

• Why Coppola?

  • Paramount’s mob film failures prompted a demand for authentic Italian flavor: “We want the audience to be able to smell the spaghetti.”
  • Coppola only agreed to direct if he could make the film a metaphor for capitalism; producers were skeptical but relented.

• Producer Robert Evans’ Role

  • Often overlooked, Evans brilliantly navigated creative egos and ensured an Italian cast, scrutinized budgets, and secured unusual profit shares for Paramount.

• Tension with Puzo

  • Producer-studio-writer-director relationships were fraught but productive—Evans’ market instincts versus Coppola’s artistic ambitions.
  • Quote [13:55, Karen Spence]:
    “The first film really became a proxy war between the two men....”
  • Evans helped bridge “pictures” and literature for Puzo; mutual respect but not close friendship.

Karen Spence’s Companion Guide: Fresh Angles and Historical Roots

[18:09 – 23:22]

• Approach of the Book

  • Spence emphasizes real-life events that inspired many scenes; the Mafia’s entwinement with Hollywood, Cuba, and Italy is deeply explored.
  • Major sections cover deleted scenes, script drafts, the Sicilian dimension (often overlooked), and how Puzo did extensive library research for realism.
  • Quote [21:27, Karen Spence]:
    “I focused a lot on the real life historical events that all the scenes are based or allude to… When you understand the inspiration, the films become much better understood and much deeper for the audience members.”

• Who’s It For?

  • Deep dives appeal to both die-hard fans and newcomers, Mafia history buffs, those interested in the Sicilian-American experience, and lovers of detail and “companion guide” analysis.

Little-Known Details: The Cat, Sicilian Scenes, and Visual Irony

[23:22 – 28:19]

• Memorable Moments & Trivia

  • Marlon Brando’s cat was a stray found on set; its loud purring forced the re-dubbing of dialogue.
  • Hidden references abound—like the Profiles in Courage JFK book lurking in the background, symbolizing public image and duplicity.
  • Symbolic camera work, costume choices, and historically grounded set pieces (e.g., Ellis Island makeup, parking meters in Cuba, etc.) fill the films.

• Quote [24:29, Karen Spence]:
  “My very favorite detail across all three films has to be the visual irony of the book's profiles encouraged by John F. Kennedy. It's sitting in shadow right behind Michael Corleone...”

The Hollywood Connection: Real Moguls and Scandals

[31:41 – 40:30]

• Woltz and the Horse’s Head

  • Character is a blend of real studio moguls Harry Cohn (Columbia) and Jack Warner; industry regularly used gangsters for labor control and faced mob violence and extortion.
  • Production anecdotes: Waltz’s dinner matzo and ketchup signal his background and possible coded references.
  • Deleted scenes implied Waltz was a pedophile, but were cut—raising questions about audience sympathy and narrative choices.
  • Quote [33:22, Karen Spence]:
    “He told Sammy Davis that he needed to marry a Black woman within 24 hours. Sammy was legitimately fearful, and he announced his engagement ... on stage in Las Vegas that very evening.”

• Johnny Fontaine and Sinatra

  • Fontaine was modeled heavily after Frank Sinatra, who was famously insulted by the association. Real mob intervention in Sinatra’s career is echoed in the film.
  • Quote [38:33, Karen Spence]:
    “Sinatra, who's extremely well known for his quick temper, reacted very angrily and verbally confronted the author."

Inspirations for Vito Corleone: Fact and Fiction

[40:30 – 45:38]

• Surprise Source: Mario Puzo’s Mother

  • Much of Vito’s character comes from Puzo’s mother, whose strength and cunning enabled her to survive in Hell’s Kitchen.
  • Famous lines (“an offer he can’t refuse”) derive directly from her sayings.
  • Real gangsters (Joe Profaci, Carlo Gambino, Frank Costello) and their businesses inspired Vito, but not the ultra-ruthless Vito Genovese as sometimes claimed.

• Brando’s Voice

  • Voice inspired by FBI tapes of Frank Costello; mouthpiece altered facial structure, not voice.

The Myth of the Mafia “Honor Code”

[45:38 – 47:10]

• Reality vs. Fiction

  • In real life, any Mafia “honor code” is more myth than lived reality—it’s frequently weaponized to pressure ordinary Sicilians into silence (omertà), often to the detriment of justice.

  • Quote [45:51, Karen Spence]:
    “The ideas of rules of conduct are more idealized in literature and film than it's really practiced in reality.... Perpetuating this idea of the Mafia having an honor code, especially in Sicily, is weaponized to hurt ordinary Sicilians.”

Women in The Godfather: Power, Passivity, and Perception

[47:10 – 51:34]

• Diane Keaton’s Kay and Criticism

  • Diane Keaton’s performance and her character Kay are often maligned, but Spence notes that director Coppola admired her talent and that the critique is often about the character’s lack of power in a patriarchal tale—not the actress herself.

  • Female characters are intentionally powerless and are not positioned to redeem the men; the system is explicitly patriarchal and the narrative is fiercely male-centric.

  • Quote [48:14, Karen Spence]:
    “There was never once a time in any of the films where the power of a woman, sexual or otherwise, influenced any male character to truly change his ways. The films are explicitly about the endurance of patriarchal power.”

Writing and Morality: The Fate of Fredo

[51:34 – 57:32]

• Who Decided to Kill Fredo?

  • Coppola and Puzo agreed Fredo’s death was essential for emotional weight, but delayed it to preserve audience sympathy by sparing Mama Corleone the grief.
  • Michael’s actions are not borne of mercy—he’s described as a “living corpse” in moral terms. His choices are logical within his world, defined by betrayal and survival.

• Fredo’s Agency and Tragedy

  • Fredo’s ultimate fate is sealed by his decisions and betrayals—not just the Tahoe plot, but worse, failing to warn Michael about enemies on the Senate committee.

  • Quote [54:52, Jacke Wilson]:
    “I've always viewed it as almost like an act of self-defense... You can't let something, a transgression like that slide or the whole thing will come toppling down.”

The Godfather’s Enduring Place in Culture

[57:32 – 59:35]

• Timelessness and Social Context

  • The Godfather retains its “event” status even after 50+ years; its quality and relevance endure, transcending cinematic technical advances.

  • Economic and social uncertainty has always fueled popular interest in gangster films—Great Depression, Watergate era, and today.

  • Quote [58:49, Karen Spence]:
    “Gangster movies thrive at times when there's economic uncertainty. In fact, in a lot of ways, I think mob movies are an economic indicator.”

[Second Half] “My Last Book” with Elyse Graham

[61:12 – 64:46]

• Prompt: What would you choose as the last book you ever read?
• Elyse Graham's Thoughtful Process

  • Bounces between picking an unpleasant book (to ease the transition) and a much-loved one for comfort—since she can’t write about it afterwards, academic motivations are out.

  • Picks Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke, for its wit, immersive style, and the way it captures the love of books.

  • Quote [62:01, Elyse Graham]: “Some books you savor... you want to read them and then meditate upon them. And I can't choose that one because I will be dead after I've read this book.”

  • Enjoys both novel and its TV adaptation—notes how the character’s bookishness is relatable and central.

  • Quote [63:44, Jacke Wilson]: “Okay, so that's Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell.”

  • Quote [63:52, Elyse Graham]: “...One of his major motivations is that he doesn’t want anybody to take his books, which is completely comprehensible and needs no further explanation as far as I'm concerned.”

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On seeing The Godfather for the first time:
  “Famously, there’s a channel that plays the Godfather movies on a loop throughout Thanksgiving. I was a bit of a captive audience and I decided to watch the films.” — Karen Spence, [05:22]

• On the film’s deeper themes:
  “...no, this is more of a family melodrama that’s very similar to Shakespeare’s King Lear.” — Karen Spence, [10:47]

• On the transformation from pulp to prestige:
  “He was able to skim the cream from the top to ... turn it into something that we now regard as one of the landmarks of the 20th century.” — Jacke Wilson, [12:22]

• On mafia honor code:
  “Perpetuating this idea of the Mafia having an honor code, especially in Sicily, is weaponized to hurt ordinary Sicilians.” — Karen Spence, [45:51]

• On Diane Keaton’s role:
  “The films are explicitly about the endurance of patriarchal power.” — Karen Spence, [48:14]

• On choosing a last book:
  “Some books you savor... you want to read them and then meditate upon them. And I can't choose that one because I will be dead after I've read this book.” — Elyse Graham, [62:01]

Key Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:01–01:41 – Ads/intros (skipped)
• 01:41–12:22 – Introduction and Karen Spence on the allure of The Godfather
• 12:22–18:09 – Production history, Coppola, Evans, Puzo dynamics
• 18:09–23:22 – Spence’s Companion Guide: unique angles and historical accuracy
• 23:22–28:19 – Behind the scenes: trivia, symbolism, Sicilian stories
• 31:41–40:30 – Depictions of Hollywood, real-life inspirations, Sinatra and the mob
• 40:30–45:38 – Who inspired Vito Corleone?
• 45:38–47:10 – Mafia myths: “honor code” explored
• 47:10–51:34 – The role of women and analyzing Kay’s character
• 51:34–57:32 – The death of Fredo: writing and character motivations
• 57:32–59:35 – The Godfather’s cultural legacy and relevance
• 61:12–64:46 – Elyse Graham picks her “last book” (Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell)

Tone & Language

The conversation flows with scholarly depth but approachable warmth—a hallmark of Jacke Wilson’s hosting style and Spence’s detailed yet highly accessible analysis. Both guests inject personal anecdotes and humor, balanced by serious engagement with film, history, and literature.

Conclusion

This episode is an essential listen for anyone interested in The Godfather, film studies, history, or the intersection of art and life. Karen Spence’s analysis reveals new dimensions to these revered films, while Elyse Graham’s book selection offers a moment of smart, reflective levity.

For more companionable dives into literature and culture, visit historyofliterature.com or subscribe to the podcast for further episodes.