The History of Literature Podcast – Episode 761: The Story of the Nativity (with Stephen Mitchell) & The Catcher in the Rye by J.D. Salinger (#4 Greatest Book of All Time)
Host: Jacke Wilson
Guest: Stephen Mitchell
Release Date: December 24, 2025

Overview

This special Christmas episode is a celebration of story and tradition, blending an exploration of the Nativity narratives with a deep-dive interview with renowned translator and writer Stephen Mitchell about his new book reimagining the Nativity. The episode concludes with a literary countdown segment on J.D. Salinger’s The Catcher in the Rye, which Jacke reveals as #4 on the podcast’s "Greatest Books of All Time" list.

Jacke, in his characteristic reflective and warm style, guides listeners through his personal Christmas memories, the sparse biblical account of Jesus’s birth, and how our rich traditions fill in the gaps. His conversation with Stephen Mitchell explores how storytelling and empathy can illuminate even the most familiar narratives.

Key Discussion Points and Timestamps

1. Jacke’s Christmas Reflections & Introducing the Nativity Narrative

[02:00 – 19:55]

• Nostalgic Christmas Memories: Jacke reminisces about candlelit Christmas Eve services in his small Wisconsin church.
  • Touches on how the mood, stained glass windows, and singing “Silent Night” made Christmas feel transformative, marking “the hinge” between years.
• Universality of the Nativity: Emphasizes that regardless of religious belief, the Nativity is compelling as a narrative of innocence and hope.
• The Power of Story:

  “It’s a story that launched a great religion. A story worthy of 500 books, and yet it’s conveyed in barely 500 words… But we’ve added so much through history, tradition, casual gap-filling, and deep devotion.” (Jacke, 17:30)

• Introducing the Topic: Jacke announces he will read both biblical birth stories (Matthew and Luke), before the interview with Stephen Mitchell, whose book expands on the Nativity by reimagining perspectives.

2. The Biblical Nativity: How Little is Really There

[19:56 – 27:08]

• Readings from Matthew and Luke:
  • Matthew: Focuses on Joseph’s dream, Mary’s pregnancy, and the birth in a manger due to “no room at the inn.”
  • Luke: Focuses on the shepherds, angels, and similar minimal details.
• Key Observation:

  “If we just gave the details of what’s in that room... we’d have five or six details: the two parents, cloths, the manger. That’s in both accounts, not much else.” (Jacke, 24:47)

• Tradition vs. Text: Everything else—animals, visitors, the stable—is filled in by centuries of storytelling and art.

3. Stephen Mitchell: Reimagining and Deepening the Nativity

Interview [28:06 – 60:31]

a. Stephen Mitchell’s Path as a Translator and Seeker

[28:06 – 33:44]

• Motivated by Suffering: First drawn to the Book of Job through personal heartbreak, which led him into translation as a form of intimate engagement with great texts.

  “The works chose me. That’s the way I think about it, not that I chose them.” (Mitchell, 29:21)

• Zen Practice as Transformation:

  “After I discovered Zen, I wasn’t seeking anymore... I was on a very powerful path to finding all the questions I had about life and the universe.” (Mitchell, 28:42)

b. Why and How to Expand the Nativity Narrative

[36:26 – 55:06]

• Midrash and Literary Expansion:
  • Describes his book as engaging in “midrash”—creative expansions on biblical stories that flesh out implied or missing perspectives.

  “Most people don’t realize how much of a conflation the traditional Christmas story is... the tradition kind of minimizes the contradictions and puts the two stories together into one overarching story.” (Mitchell, 38:40)

• Empathy and Imagination:
  • Exploring perspectives of minor figures (“serially”), including animals (an “articulate ox”), angels, and wise men (reimagined as Jewish scholars returning from India).
  • The goal: “To give readers the kind of pleasure that I myself had from imagining a larger... more expansive treatment of this very briefly treated story in the Gospels.” (Mitchell, 39:56)
• Notable Quote:

  “To enter the consciousness of an articulate ox was one of the great delights for me of the experience.” (Mitchell, 47:17)

c. The Innkeeper: Reimagined with Compassion

[41:12 – 46:51]

• Jacke and Stephen discuss the absent-but-presumed innkeeper, often cast as a villain in tradition—but who could be re-imagined as overwhelmed but still compassionate.

  “There’s no innkeeper [in Luke], there’s just an inn... So I imagined him not… as a crabby, nasty person... but… as somebody who’s overwhelmed by this situation... there would have been hardly any room... looking out for the safety and welfare of his guests... And at the last moment... realizes there’s a dilapidated old barn... It’s only his carefulness, his concern, that’s tempting him to turn the young couple away... And the interesting thing... is that there was a current of sympathy that starts running between the innkeeper and Joseph.” (Mitchell, 41:17 – 44:44)

• Jacke’s reaction: “It just got me to rethink that aspect of it in a way that I found completely refreshing.” (Jacke, 46:37)

d. The Humanity of Mary and Joseph

[48:42 – 54:55]

• Mary’s Courage and Isolation:

  “Far from being the cherished young woman... in the actual story, when she became pregnant, she would have been despised and hated by everybody... including her parents... So her yes would have been an experience of enormous courage and surrender, of giving up everything that she cherished…”

• Joseph’s Radical Forgiveness:

  “Joseph would have had to go through the most radical, painful experience of... forgiveness of Mary for her crime of getting pregnant. All of these later Christian perspectives… when you look beyond that… you’re looking into a story of great dramatic power, of surrender on the part of Mary, forgiveness on the part of Joseph.”

• Mitchell’s Joy:

  “It was so exciting for me to discover that, and I hope readers will be excited in the same way.” (Mitchell, 54:55)

e. The Deeper Appeal of the Nativity Story

[55:06 – 60:24]

• Hope and Universality:

  “Even for those of us who aren’t Christians, [the Nativity] is associated with generosity... the whole experience of gift giving, good food, getting together…”

• Peace as the Core Message:

  “...the Nativity story, even though it has nothing to do with the historical Jesus, it represents him in a really authentic way... the angels from heaven sing... peace on earth, goodwill toward men. That... is the essence of Jesus’ teaching.” (Mitchell, 56:27)

• Myth, Ideal, and Inner Truth:
  • Mitchell shares a rabbinic story about the Messiah’s arrival being an “inner reality” rather than an outside event:

  “But Rabbi, the disciple said, pointing to his heart, if the Messiah has come, wouldn’t you know it in here? Ah, said the rabbi, pointing to his own heart, in here the Messiah has already come...” (Mitchell, 59:11)

• Profound Takeaway: It’s about “peace on earth, peace in this one person on earth... for someone who’s had that inner experience, the outer experience isn’t necessary… that person doesn’t need there to be a thousand years of external peace for… the exquisite world-shattering... realization of peace that doesn’t need an external support.” (Mitchell, 59:30)

4. Seven Things About The Catcher in the Rye (#4 Greatest Book)

[61:33 – 77:53] Jacke switches gears to count down “seven things worth knowing” about Salinger’s The Catcher in the Rye, emphasizing context, background, and literary legacy.

1. Salinger’s Experience with Anti-Semitism

• At boarding school, Jewish students’ photos were physically separable from non-Jewish students' yearbooks via a perforated page—a heartbreaking early lesson in exclusion.

  “A miniature Holocaust right there made possible by the school…” (Jacke, 63:28)

2. Holden (and Salinger’s) Loathing of “Phonies” and Hollywood

• Salinger refused to allow Hollywood adaptations, feeling it would betray the core of Holden Caulfield’s antipathy.

3. Salinger and Deception: The Real-Life “Phony”

• Salinger’s postwar marriage to a woman later revealed to have been a Nazi deeply wounded him; themes of authenticity and betrayal permeate his work.

4. Salinger and The New Yorker

• Long courtship until his stories were accepted (“to be a New Yorker writer”), building his literary confidence.

5. Are the Ducks from Catcher echoed in The Sopranos?

• Jacke speculates the iconic ducks of Tony Soprano’s pool may be an unconscious homage to Holden’s musings in Central Park.

6. The Book’s Dark Connections to Real-Life Crime

• The novel’s association with infamous assassins (e.g., Mark David Chapman, John Hinckley Jr.), despite its deeper message being about recognition and alienation, not violence.

7. Adaptations That Never Were

• Salinger’s steadfast refusal of film adaptations, with a notable near-miss when Brigitte Bardot wanted to adapt one of his stories.

Notable Quotes

• Jacke: “It was like a solstice of sorts, a moment when last year’s Christmas had finally faded and this year’s Christmas would finally, finally arrive. And soon we would have the family get-togethers... This was the moment. This was the hinge.” ([16:00])
• Stephen Mitchell: “The works chose me. That’s the way I think about it, not that I chose them.” ([29:21])
• Stephen Mitchell (on Mary’s ‘yes’):

  “Her yes would have been an experience of enormous courage and surrender, of giving up everything that she cherished, including her parents, her fiancé, her tent, her own hometown, and being despised by everybody that she knew. What an amazing yes that was, if you understand it correctly.” ([52:18])

• Jacke (on anti-Semitism in Salinger’s school):

  “A miniature Holocaust right there made possible by the school... It’s incredibly cruel. Holden, in the book, is not Jewish. But it’s easy to see why Holden would look at his fellow students and view them as phonies.” ([63:28])

• Stephen Mitchell (on the Nativity):

  “The Nativity story... is a story that gives hope to many people, millions of people throughout history... what the story is saying is really an externalization of an inner truth.” ([58:15])

Memorable Moments

• The emotional detail of Mary’s position in her community, reframing her as a figure of radical courage rather than a tranquil Madonna.
• The playful and philosophical reimagining of the innkeeper as a figure of empathy, not rejection.
• Exploration of literary midrash—how interpretation and imagination can make ancient stories more immediate.
• Jacke’s seven facts about The Catcher in the Rye, especially his deeply felt account of Salinger’s experiences with exclusion and loss.

Further Segments & Closing

• Jacke teases future “history of literature” topics, including sonnets, Emily Brontë, Chekhov, and more.
• Episode ends with a tone of gratitude and community, wishing listeners peace, goodwill, health, and a “little dose of luck.”

Takeaways

• The Nativity, though scripturally brief, is a tapestry woven through centuries of imagination, art, and longing—constantly re-envisioned to reflect changing ideas of hope, courage, and community.
• Mitchell’s creative approach is both scholarly and empathetic, inviting readers to inhabit the spiritual humanity of all its characters.
• Literary classics like The Catcher in the Rye hold their place in part because they give voice to social pain, alienation, and the search for authenticity.

For listeners interested in literature, spirituality, and the craft of storytelling, this episode offers warmth, wisdom, and thoughtful new perspectives on stories you thought you knew by heart.