The History of Literature Podcast, Episode 764 – “Two Thousand Years of Roman History (with Edward J. Watts) | My Last Book with Nathan Hensley”
Release Date: January 5, 2026
Host: Jacke Wilson
Guests: Edward J. Watts, Nathan Hensley

Overview

This episode delves deep into the remarkable resilience and adaptability of Rome, spanning a monumental 2000-year history—from its humble beginnings in the Iron Age to its collapse during the Crusades. Historian Edward J. Watts joins host Jacke Wilson to discuss the lessons Rome’s longevity offers, focusing on institutional innovation, openness to outsiders, the evolution of citizenship, and the unique role of storytelling and literature in Roman society. The episode concludes with the recurring segment "My Last Book," featuring Victorian literature scholar Nathan Hensley, who reflects on the book he would choose as his last.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why a 2000-Year Roman History? [04:44–07:42]

• Edward J. Watts sets out to tell Rome’s story without the usual academic “periodization,” arguing that dividing Roman history into neat segments often erases vital continuities—both societal and personal:
  • “If you have somebody alive in 287 BC…they don't really recognize that their life now has changed dramatically. They don't wake up and say, ‘Okay, well, we're in a new period.’” [06:28]
  • For Romans themselves, the deep past was always present.
  • Modern historians' divisions can obscure the remarkable resilience that made Rome last.

2. The Roman Connection to the Ancient Past [07:42–10:06]

• Storytelling and myth allowed Romans to “bridge” centuries, making legendary founders and heroes “present” guides for contemporary society.
• The Roman way with narratives was “bridgeable,” allowing “the past [to]…come into the present and interact with you.” [09:11]

3. Rome’s Unlikely Beginnings [10:06–12:04]

• In 800 B.C., Rome was a “small place,” a “backwater.”
  • “Nobody would take any sort of big bet on the Roman state dominating the world in 800 B.C…” [10:23]
  • Surrounded by advanced civilizations (Egypt, Mesopotamia), Rome’s later ascent was improbable.

4. Secret of Roman Resilience: Assimilation and Inclusion [12:04–16:29]

• Geography helped initially, but the real “secret sauce” was cultural:
  • Rome consistently incorporated outsiders—criminals, exiles, and later entire peoples—making them Roman citizens, sometimes elevating foreigners (even kings) to leadership.
  • This openness to bringing in talent and cultures—while extending citizenship—remained a core Roman trait for centuries.
  • “Some of the Roman kings actually are not Roman…They are Greek or Etruscan…More capable.” [14:07]
• Rome’s self-conception was of a society built on integration, not exclusion.

5. Embracing and Improving Other Cultures’ Innovations [16:29–20:38]

• Romans prided themselves on learning from others—taking Greek military formations, political ideas, medicine, and expanding/adapting them:
  • “We adopted it [the Greek phalanx], and then we just made it better.” [16:34]
  • Citizenship and democracy were extended across Italy and the empire—unlike the exclusiveness of Athens or Sparta.
  • Conquering societies merged their history into "Roman" history.

6. Roman Conquest and Local Identity [20:38–24:15]

• While conquest was rarely “welcomed,” the Roman approach allowed conquered elites to retain their culture and status—now with a Roman overlay.
  • Examples of Gaul & Britain: Celtic elites kept their identity while building Roman arches.
  • This “supplemented” identities rather than erasing them, contrasting with later colonial empires.

7. Roman Reactions to Diversity and Expansion [24:15–26:49]

• Acceptance was not without friction:
  • Recurring tension over new cultures, e.g., Cato the Elder railing against Greek influence and Juvenal complaining about Syrians in Rome, but these voices rarely argued for rejecting assimilation outright.
  • “Even those criticisms…are not a criticism of that basic idea that we as Romans bring in new things because it makes us better. I don't think even Cato would disagree with that.” [25:58]

8. Individuals vs. Institutions: What Made Rome Endure? [26:49–34:01]

• Rome was “not a society of Carlylean great men” (after Thomas Carlyle’s ‘great man’ theory of history).
  • Institutional continuity and slow evolution were paramount.
  • Legal codes, traditions, and checks on power prevented radical breaks—Caesar’s assassination showed the limits of even powerful individuals.
  • Augustus leveraged tradition, packaging imperial authority as an aggregation of traditional republican powers:
    • “No man is so great that you can…get rid of everything and just plunk down something new…” [31:43]

9. Transmission of Values through Literature, Art, and Religion [35:40–40:05]

• Romans learned societal ideals through an “alive” literature—public readings, theater, family ancestor rituals, church liturgy.
• Reading and performance were inherently oral and communal; to read Roman literature was to act—to feel ancient emotions and inhabit past voices.
  • “Literature was very alive for Romans. And this literature was something that absolutely helped shape this understanding of the past…” [39:28]

10. The Role—and Risk—of Education in Identity [40:05–45:06]

• When the Christian emperor Julian banned Christians from teaching literature, it reflected the high stakes of cultural continuity.
  • The aim was to ensure that only those who truly believed the gods and stories in pagan texts should teach—out of fear the tradition would be diluted, not properly inhabited.
  • But this was seen as an overreach; the shared literary curriculum was essential for unity and communication.

11. Unique Roman Reading Practices [45:06–51:59]

• Roman reading was fundamentally aloud, communal, and performative—even for technical or “boring” writing.
• The original languages’ stylistic flourishes (lost in translation) and structure demanded oral performance.
  • “Even the most boring prose would have been read aloud…There are style choices even in boring stuff…” [50:09]

12. The Roman Educational System: Innovation and Outreach [51:59–56:46]

• Rome did not invent, but perfected, Greek education:
  • From informal, elite training to state-sponsored universities with standardized curriculum and state recruitment of talent.
  • By the 5th–6th centuries AD, Roman education resembled modern universities—analyzed for its public role in producing capable citizens and administrators.

13. Why (and How) Rome Fell—What Ended Resilience? [56:46–63:53]

• The fall was neither sudden nor inevitable, but the “miracle” was how rare collapse was.
• Collapse followed failure in leadership, especially in upholding citizenship rights and institutional fairness.
  • People lost faith, ceased seeing themselves as collective citizens, and began seeking alternatives—sapping Rome’s institutional glue.
  • “When it goes away, it can go away very quickly…People start saying…I'm not interested in doing that anymore.” [60:58]
• The lesson: Institutions, not just arms or individuals, maintain resilience.
  • “The feature that we should identify as remarkable is not that the place collapsed…The hard thing is making it so that no one imagines collapse is possible. And that's I think, Rome's greatest success. No one thought that this place would ever disappear. And it's a shock when it does.” [63:23]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Rome’s openness:
  • Edward J. Watts: “The stories Romans told...emphasize that this is a society that takes in qualified and capable people...They are as much a part of who we are as someone who was born here.” [14:24]
• On tradition and change:
  • Edward J. Watts: “It’s so profound and so like, deeply embedded in the way Romans think...that these figures who come forward to be...radical disruptors, they have to do that against a very significant set of institutional and cultural checks.” [28:01]
• On education and performance:
  • Edward J. Watts: “If you're reading poetry, you would do the same thing. Right? This literature is alive, and it's alive to such a degree that you, as a speaker and as an audience member...need to feel that you are in the scene where this person is living.” [36:56]
• On the fall and resilience:
  • Edward J. Watts: “States can do that. States do that all the time. Bad leaders can collapse an entire state very easily…The hard thing is not collapsing...The hard thing is making it so that no one imagines collapse is possible.” [63:02]
• On the miracle of endurance:
  • Jacke Wilson: “The ending just feels almost mundane...the miracle is why was there not a 25 year period like that at any point in the previous 2,000 years?” [61:30]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Rome’s Periodization and Approach to History: 04:44–07:42
• Storytelling and Roman Identity: 07:42–10:06
• Origins of Rome / Improbable Rise: 10:06–12:04
• Assimilation, Citizenship, and Openness: 12:04–16:29
• Adapting Other Cultures’ Achievements: 16:29–20:38
• Romanization & Local Autonomy: 20:38–24:15
• Cultural Tensions within Rome: 24:15–26:49
• Institutions vs. Great Men: 26:49–34:01
• Literature, Art, and Religion in Socialization: 35:40–40:05
• Julian and the Politics of Education: 40:05–45:06
• Roman Reading Practices: 45:06–51:59
• Education in the Empire: 51:59–56:46
• The Roots of Collapse and Loss of Resilience: 56:46–63:53

Bonus Segment: "My Last Book" with Nathan Hensley [64:18–75:41]

Prompt: What would your last book be?

• Nathan Hensley shares a thoughtful reflection. He values books that challenge us and finds the greatest worth in those he doesn’t feel “adequate” to yet—like Proust's In Search of Lost Time or Joyce's Ulysses, but settles on the Collected Works of Shakespeare as his symbolic last book:
  • “It would really be an amazing experience to have lived a life that you might think would put yourself up to the challenge of approaching a text like that and really see a kind of monument of human creativity in a way that you could really, hopefully…appreciate.” [66:25]
• Discussion of classics (Middlemarch), why reading is a hopeful act, and the power of returning to literature again and again.
• Memorable exchange about seeing unread books as evidence of hope and possibility:
  • Nathan Hensley: “…the past is not really past…things that are old are actually resources for the future…there's this sort of wellspring of possibility in the past.” [73:11]

Tone & Style

Jacke Wilson’s signature conversational warmth and enthusiasm sets an inviting, open tone. Edward J. Watts’s style is learned yet accessible, dense with illustrative examples and framed for general listeners. The discussion manages to be sweeping in its range yet rich in detail, mirroring the scope of the book itself.

Takeaways for Listeners

• The true “miracle” isn’t that Rome fell, but that it lasted so improbably long—and that endurance grew from institutional continuity, open citizenship, adaptation, and a living relationship with the past.
• Literature and storytelling aren’t just entertainment or vehicles for empathy but tools for social cohesion and resilience—living bridges to the deep past.
• Thinking about our "last book" is an act of humility and hope—literature shapes not only who we are, but who we might yet become.

For Further Exploration

• Edward J. Watts, The A 2000-Year History
• The History of Literature archives, especially Jacke’s “25 for 25” series
• Victorian literature episodes with Nathan Hensley

End of Summary