The History of Literature – Episode 766: Gertrude Stein (with Francesca Wade) | Ruskin on the Only One Way to Get Art | My Last Book with Holly Baggett

Date: January 12, 2026
Host: Jacke Wilson
Guests: Francesca Wade (author of Gertrude: An Afterlife) and Holly Baggett (historian, author of Making No Compromise)

Overview

This episode takes a deep dive into the literary life, legacy, and mythologies surrounding Gertrude Stein, one of modernism's most enigmatic figures. Host Jacke Wilson is joined by biographer Francesca Wade, whose new book unearths fresh insight from archival materials and never-before-examined interviews between Alice B. Toklas and scholar Leon Katz. The discussion spans Stein’s innovative literary ambitions, the construction of her legend, and the intimate struggle behind her public persona, while also touching on the broader theme of artistic creation. In the closing segment, historian Holly Baggett shares which book she'd choose if it were the last she'd ever read, revealing what makes a text eternally rewarding.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Art, Modernism, and the Value of Creation

Timestamps: 02:00–07:00

• Support for the Arts: Jacke opens with a reflection on the importance of supporting art, discussing Gertrude Stein’s role as a patron and connector among modernist circles in Paris. He references Stein’s influence on figures like Picasso and Hemingway and the power of art to enrich both individuals and society.

• Ruskin’s Philosophy: Jacke shares a passage from John Ruskin, emphasizing that good art comes from “nations who rejoiced in it…basked in it…fought for it.”

  “They made it to keep and we to sell.” (06:15, Jacke quoting Ruskin)
  The message: true artistic greatness springs from passionate enjoyment and communal value, not commercial motives.

2. Gertrude Stein: Breaking From the 19th Century

Timestamps: 07:21–13:00

• Escaping Convention: Francesca Wade explains Stein’s determination to “kill the 19th century” by breaking with both societal and literary expectations.

  “She was kind of chafing to escape the confines of her upbringing…Stein was pushing boundaries from the start.” (07:31, Wade)

• Literary Innovation: Stein’s ambition paralleled the revolution in visual arts led by Picasso and Matisse. Her move from realism to experimental narrative is epitomized in works like Three Lives and her decade-long project The Making of Americans.

3. Stein’s Literary Philosophy and Method

Timestamps: 11:25–17:56

• Questioning Language: Francesca and Jacke discuss how Stein, drawing on scientific and psychological training, interrogated how words create meaning, aiming to “embody the very essence of people, places, objects, existence.”

• Philosopher of Language:

  “She was trying to use words…not necessarily to convey grand truths…but to use them almost for their own sake as kind of living things in the world with us.” (13:40, Wade)

• Intention and Impact: While her work appeared solipsistic, Stein’s actual goal was to approach a form of objectivity—“to transcend her own sort of personal experience through a very sustained observation” (17:56, Wade).

4. The Challenge of Stein’s Obscure Style and Pursuit of Recognition

Timestamps: 20:00–26:56

• Accessibility vs. Innovation: Stein’s experimental writing often alienated readers, yet she still craved recognition and wide readership.

  “Her work was so sort of private...and yet she did really want readers for it and wanted recognition for doing something truly radical.” (20:57, Wade)

• Refusal to Explain: Stein resisted decoding her own texts, believing “if you enjoy it, you understand it” (22:58, Wade quoting Stein), making reading her an act of engagement less about comprehension than immersion.

• Reader’s Role:

  “Stein’s writing…needs activation by a reader…an invitation to look at the world through the words on the page and be in the moment…in the continuous present.” (22:50, Wade)

5. Francesca Wade’s Gertrude Stein Research and Breakthrough

Timestamps: 29:03–46:03

• Stein’s Parisian Mythology: Stein’s home became the fulcrum of Parisian modernist arts; she fostered and curated the era’s talent, yet felt conflicted about her public fame vs. the appreciation of her actual literary work.

• Discovery of New Archives: Wade discusses the significance of Leon Katz, whose fifty-year study of Stein’s unpublished notebooks and interviews with Alice B. Toklas opened a new window into Stein’s private processes and relationships.

  "He realized that this was a kind of a key to the novel because it exposed the kind of backbone structure that in a way, had become hidden in the finished text..." (38:17, Wade)

• Toklas as Gatekeeper: Toklas was both devoted and, at times, evasive with biographers. She both maintained and subtly revised the Stein legend in her long stewardship after Stein’s death.

• Archive Discovery: Wade was the first researcher allowed access to Katz’s interview materials posthumously at Yale, offering unprecedented insight into Toklas’s memories and the construction of Stein’s myth.

6. New Perspectives on Stein’s Life & Work

Timestamps: 48:12–55:46

• Humanizing Gertrude Stein:

  “What really came out for me…was a sense just of her as a sort of real person operating in a hostile world.” (51:34, Wade)

• Reading Stein Anew: Wade suggests that Stein’s work teaches you “how to read her” and that, thanks to new material and shifting context, it can always be revisited for fresh discoveries and meanings.

  “Every time I read them, I see new things in them.” (54:54, Wade)

7. Memorable Quotes and Moments

• Jacke on modernist support networks:
  “One of the great things about the early 20th century and the modernist movement is that you see people supporting other people, other artists, all the time.” (03:34)

• Francesca Wade on Stein’s ambition:

  “She wanted to write, she said, a history of everyone who ever lived.” (09:46)

• Stein (quoted):
  “I am I no longer when I see.” (17:56, via Wade)

• Stein (quoted):
  “If you enjoy it, you understand it.” (22:50, via Wade)

• Wade on reading Stein:
  “The experience of reading Stein can be one of total bewilderment, but it can also be one of kind of intoxication.” (23:12)

Notable Segment Timestamps

| Timestamp | Content | |-----------|---------| | 02:00 | Jacke discusses the role of art and independent bookstores in society | | 06:15 | John Ruskin's philosophy: good art comes from those who truly love and value it | | 07:21 | Start of Francesca Wade interview | | 07:31 | Francesca explains Stein’s break from the 19th century | | 11:25 | Stein’s scientific background and its influence on her writing | | 17:56 | Stein’s objectivity and personal transcendence in writing | | 22:50 | 'If you enjoy it, you understand it': Stein’s philosophy for readers | | 29:03 | Francesca Wade’s journey in discovering Stein and her myth | | 35:56 | Introduction of Leon Katz, the "missing" notebooks, and their impact | | 41:51 | Francesca's experience accessing Katz’s archive | | 46:03 | How Alice B. Toklas comes across in Katz’s interviews | | 51:34 | What Wade learned about Stein’s humanity | | 54:54 | The rediscoverability of Stein’s work | | 57:44 | Holly Baggett on choosing Ulysses as her last book | | 60:16 | The affirmation and richness of Ulysses |

Segment: My Last Book with Holly Baggett

Timestamps: 57:44–60:41

• Holly Baggett, historian and scholar, chooses James Joyce’s Ulysses as the last book she would ever read:

  "I'd want Ulysses because it would still keep my mind alive. It’s an endlessly fascinating, deep dive into the minds of these fascinating characters. And that's why I would pick it. It makes you think, it challenges you and you wrestle with it, and that's a good thing." (58:13, Baggett)

• Discussion of Ulysses' depth, playfulness, and the dynamic scholarship around it.
• On books for a lifetime: Ulysses is a text that continually renews itself with each reading.

Tone and Style

The conversation is thoughtful, rich with literary references and reflection, and alternates between historical context, analytical insight, and personal anecdote. Both Wilson and Wade maintain an inquisitive, open tone—deeply appreciative of Stein's complexity and the enduring challenge and reward of her work.

Summary Takeaways

• Gertrude Stein sought to revolutionize literature in the same way her peers revolutionized the arts, breaking from 19th-century conventions, and infusing language itself with new vitality and questioning.
• Francesca Wade’s biography leverages new archival material (notably, the Leon Katz interviews with Alice B. Toklas) to humanize Stein and uncover the personal cost, effort, and myth-making behind her public persona.
• Stein’s work demands radical engagement from readers—relinquishing a search for fixed sense and embracing an experience of language and perception.
• The mythos surrounding Stein was co-constructed by herself and Toklas, who maintained a careful public legacy, only partially penetrated by later biographers and researchers.
• Both Stein (in avant-garde literature) and Joyce (in Ulysses) embody the enduring richness of modernist experimentation and continue to reward persistent, curious readers.

Recommended for:
Listeners fascinated by modernism, the intersection of art and literature, archival detective work, and anyone hungry for new angles on the ever-puzzling Gertrude Stein.

Episode Standout Quote:

“The creator of the new art is always an outlaw before being a classic.” — Francesca Wade, paraphrasing Stein (34:32)