The History of Literature Podcast

Episode 772: Thucydides and The History of the Peloponnesian War (with Polly Low and Robin Waterfield) | My Last Book with James West
February 2, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the world of Thucydides and his classic work, The History of the Peloponnesian War, spotlighting the grand historical narrative of the conflict between Athens and Sparta. Host Jacke Wilson talks to Robin Waterfield, the translator of a new edition, and Polly Low, who wrote its introduction and notes, exploring Thucydides as historian, his methodology, the book’s legacy, and its enduring lessons about politics, human nature, and history-writing. The episode concludes with literary scholar James West discussing his pick for a “last book to read.”

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Thucydides Still Matters

• Thucydides claimed his book would be “a possession for all time,” and Wilson notes the accuracy of that bold promise:

  “The book has survived longer than the war … as new generations of thinkers and strategists seek to understand today’s challenges...” (00:39)

2. Who Was Thucydides?

• Biographical Information:
  • Most knowledge derived from Thucydides’ own text.
  • He was an Athenian general (~423 BCE), likely over 30 at the time, and wealthy, with business interests in the northern Aegean.
  • His exile was due to a military disaster or possibly political machinations.

  "All we know about him is what we can infer from what he says in the book itself." – Robin Waterfield (11:06) "It's almost certainly because of that [military failure] ... but there may well have been political things going on." – Polly Low (12:46)

3. Motivations and Methodology

• Purpose of Writing:

  • Thucydides believed the war was uniquely important and needed accurate chronicling.
  • He stressed the value for future readers, rooted in consistent human nature.

  "There's something about the way that humans behave which means you can take lessons from a different context and apply them to your own." – Polly Low (13:31)

• Historical Method:

  • Thucydides aimed for a single truthful narrative, unlike Herodotus who presented multiple versions.

  "Thucydides says: ‘This is how it was.’... That’s what he claims is the distinctive feature of his methodology." – Polly Low (21:26) "Herodotus... will often give more than one possible version of events and then say: ‘It’s up to the reader to decide.’" – Robin Waterfield (21:24)

4. Style and the Challenges of Translation

• Waterfield describes Thucydides’ varied and dense style: straightforward in narration; dense and philosophical in analysis; rhetorical and contrastive in speeches.

  "There are two broad styles... narrative... and dense analysis—and then there's almost a third style when he's putting speeches into the mouths of his protagonists." – Robin Waterfield (16:03)
  "His word order is odd... He was forging his own path, really." – Robin Waterfield (16:03)

5. Athenian Democracy vs. Spartan Oligarchy

• Athens: Direct democracy; all male citizens could participate (with practical limits).

  "The most important thing about Athenian democracy is that it was not representational... It was a direct democracy..." – Robin Waterfield (28:26)

• Sparta: Complex “mixed” constitution; in practice, an extreme oligarchy controlled by a small elite.

  "Aristotle called it a mixed constitution, but to my mind it's an extreme oligarchy..." – Robin Waterfield (31:50)

• Contrast: Not simply democracy vs. oligarchy; deeper cultural and constitutional differences (conservatism vs. dynamism).

6. Roots and Nature of the War

• Not simply ideological, but deeply tied to Athens’ growing power and Sparta’s resultant fear.

  "What caused the war... Thucydides does see this war as being ... an ideological clash... but that might be a later construction..." – Polly Low (32:51) "The cause... Thucydides thinks is most important is about Athenian power, the growth of the Athenian empire." – Polly Low (34:33)

7. Political Alignments of Greek States

• City-states often aligned with Athens or Sparta due to a complex mix of political ideology, ethnicity, local rivalries, and foreign relations—not just because of ideology.

  "Disputes within communities about constitutional matters... often do spill out into foreign politics..." – Polly Low (35:28)

8. Famous Passages & Their Lessons

a. The Melian Dialogue (37:12)

• Drama of might vs. right; more nuance than just “the strong do what they can, the weak suffer what they must.”

  "It's... more subtle... a lot of talk about expediency and power..." – Robin Waterfield (37:12) "[It's] a place to think about these problems of empire and power." – Polly Low (38:45) "[The Athenians] tell the Melians off for relying so much on hope... But then... the Athenians start themselves having to be the people in the weak position." – Polly Low (40:23)

b. Pericles’ Funeral Oration (41:32)

• A near-unique celebration of democratic values:

  "Pericles’ funeral speech is almost the closest we get to a justification of Athenian democracy ... It's a fantastic piece of rhetoric." – Robin Waterfield (41:48)

• Emphasis on possibility, excellence, and participation (but glosses over the limits and randomness of participation).

  "It enables excellent people to participate." – Polly Low (44:22)

9. The “Thucydides Trap” and Modern Analogies

• Attempts to analogize historical powers (like U.S. vs. China) to Athens and Sparta are longstanding but often miss complexities in Thucydides.

  "It's a very reductive way of reading. It focuses on a tiny bit of the work and misses a lot of the subtlety." – Polly Low (45:51) "What Thucydides avoids saying is that war was inevitable." – Robin Waterfield (50:19)

10. Legacy and Personal Reflections

• Waterfield’s respect deepened through the translation process ("He really is... one of the greats." – 51:11).
• Thucydides remains invigorating and relevant—thanks to new translations and the perennial themes his work touches.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Thucydides’ Motivation:
  "'He’s written this to be a possession for all time.'" – Polly Low (13:31)
• Style Challenge:
  "Sentences can run up to half a page or more in length... you get this sense of intensity that he projects by writing in that way." – Robin Waterfield (16:03)
• History’s Biases:
  "[Thucydides] doesn't allow the reader to know for sure that that's what he's done." – Polly Low (21:26)
• Athens and Sparta:
  "To my mind it's an extreme oligarchy... only 8,000 people actually participating..." – Robin Waterfield (31:50)
• On Legacy:
  "He really is... one of the greats. That's it." – Robin Waterfield (51:11)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro to Thucydides & Episode Theme: 00:39–02:45
• Interview Start (Guest Introductions): 10:18
• Who Was Thucydides?: 11:06–12:28
• Why Did He Write the Book?: 13:31–14:39
• Thucydides vs. Herodotus (Method): 19:36–22:14
• Translating Thucydides’ Style: 16:03–19:36
• Athenian Democracy & Spartan Oligarchy: 28:26–32:29
• Causes of the War & Ideology: 32:51–34:49
• The Melian Dialogue: 37:12–41:32
• Pericles’ Funeral Oration: 41:32–45:18
• The ‘Thucydides Trap’ & Modern Analogies: 45:48–50:51
• Enduring Legacy, Waterfield’s Reflections: 51:11–52:14

Concluding Segment: James West's "Last Book"

• Guest: James West (F. Scott Fitzgerald expert)
• Pick: Blue at the Mizzen by Patrick O’Brian (final Aubrey-Maturin novel)
• Reason: "I want to believe that Jack Aubrey and Stephen Maturin continue to sail over the ocean after I’m gone..." (53:41)
• Host Reflection: "It’s more the recurring things... Spending time in the company of these people and in this world that's created." – Jacke Wilson (55:06)
• Theme: The enduring comfort and richness of returning to beloved literary worlds.

Summary

This episode offers new insight into The History of the Peloponnesian War, the life and motivations of Thucydides, the philosophical and narrative innovations that make his work enduring, and the contemporary relevance and limitations of ancient analogies. The translation process itself receives a spotlight, highlighting the vibrancy and difficulty of rendering Thucydides for modern readers. The Melian Dialogue and Pericles’ Funeral Oration are expertly unpacked, illustrating both nuances and timeless lessons for today’s listeners. The episode closes with a moving discussion of literary continuity and comfort, as James West shares the reasons behind his ultimate “last book” choice.

For more, visit historyofliterature.com.