Invisible Hands: 5. The Lucky Gambler

Summary

Invisible Hands: Episode 5 - The Lucky Gambler

The History Podcast hosted by BBC Radio 4's David Dimbleby

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Introduction and Context

In this episode of Invisible Hands, David Dimbleby delves into the intricate history of the free market revolution in Britain, focusing on the influential yet controversial figure James Goldsmith. The episode explores how Goldsmith's actions and ideologies both shaped and challenged the prevailing economic doctrines of his time.

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James Goldsmith’s Early Life and Business Strategies

James Goldsmith, portrayed as a quintessential free marketeer, began his journey with a penchant for risk-taking. Dimbleby recounts Goldsmith's early gamble at Eton, where a successful horse bet led him to leave school at 16 to forge his own path. Goldsmith's business acumen was evident early on, particularly in his acquisition of Bovril.

Notable Quote:

"He wanted to establish the Goldsmith name and to make a colossal fortune."
— James Goldsmith [08:17]

Goldsmith's strategy involved identifying and exploiting hidden values within companies. By purchasing Bovril, he recognized that the true worth lay not in the product but in the company's vast ranches in Argentina. This approach became his trademark, characterized by ruthless efficiency and a deep understanding of corporate finance.

Notable Quote:

"What they were buying is these awful companies, and they were selling the bits they didn't want, reconstructing the good bits, and then they went on to the next one, and it was exactly the same."
— James Goldsmith [10:52]

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The Rise of Globalization and Free Market Expansion

The 1980s marked a significant shift under Margaret Thatcher's leadership, embracing deregulation and entrepreneurship. Goldsmith thrived in this environment, expanding his business empire globally. The dismantling of trade barriers and the advent of globalization enabled him to acquire diverse assets, making him one of the largest private landowners in the United States.

Notable Quote:

"He ended up owning all kinds of things, you know, whether it's forests in South America or the supermarkets in the United States."
— James Goldsmith [12:46]

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Goldsmith’s Critique of Free Market Consequences

Despite his success, Goldsmith grew increasingly critical of the free market's societal impacts. He observed that relentless pursuit of corporate profits led to unemployment, poverty, and social instability. This realization prompted him to challenge the very system that had facilitated his rise.

Notable Quote:

"If purely for an economic doctrine, you have a situation whereby the economy grows, that you create poverty, unemployment and you destabilize the society, you're in trouble."
— Geoffrey Wansell [02:55]

Goldsmith articulated that the unchecked capitalist system prioritized economic indicators over genuine prosperity and social well-being, ultimately threatening societal collapse.

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Founding of the Referendum Party

Determined to address these systemic issues, Goldsmith founded the Referendum Party with a singular aim: to hold a referendum on the United Kingdom's membership in the European Union. Recognizing the unpopularity of globalization among certain segments of the population, Goldsmith sought to capitalize on this sentiment.

Notable Quote:

"Freedom has to be fought for and it is only those who do so who deserve to be free."
— Geoffrey Wansell [23:27]

The party attracted a diverse array of candidates, including farmers, aristocrats, and even environmentalists, all united under the banner of challenging the established political order. Angela Kilmartin, a former opera singer and campaigner, became one of the prominent figures within the party.

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The 1997 General Election and Its Aftermath

The Referendum Party's campaign, characterized by its populist fervor and charismatic leadership, aimed to disrupt the traditional two-party system. Despite their energetic efforts, the party secured only 3.5% of the vote, with no seats won in Parliament.

Notable Quote:

"He made the COVID of Time magazine with the headline the Lucky Gambler."
— David Dimbleby [14:09]

While Goldsmith's immediate political ambitions did not translate into electoral success, his campaign succeeded in elevating the issue of the European Union to the national discourse, laying the groundwork for future political movements.

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Long-term Impact and Connection to Brexit and Modern Politics

The seeds planted by Goldsmith's Referendum Party bore fruit nearly two decades later with the Brexit referendum in 2016. The isolationist and protectionist sentiments he championed resonated with the electorate, culminating in the UK's decision to leave the EU.

Fast forward to 2025, the episode draws parallels between Goldsmith's predictions and the political landscape, highlighting the resurgence of outsider figures like Donald Trump who echo Goldsmith's anti-establishment rhetoric.

Notable Quote:

"We've just forgotten what the economy is about, what its purpose is. Prosperity and stability for everyone."
— Geoffrey Wansell [19:55]

Goldsmith's legacy, therefore, is not merely one of business success but also of igniting critical conversations about economic policy and national sovereignty that continue to shape British and global politics.

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Conclusion

Invisible Hands: The Lucky Gambler provides a comprehensive examination of James Goldsmith's influence on Britain's free market revolution. Through strategic business maneuvers and bold political activism, Goldsmith both propelled and critiqued the capitalist system, leaving an indelible mark on the nation's economic and political fabric.

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Produced by Joe Barrett
Executive Producers and Story Editors: Joe Sykes and Dasha Lisitsina
Sound Design: Peregrine Andrews
Commissioning Editor at Radio 4: Dan Clark
Special Thanks to: Phil Tinline, Peggy Sutton, and Leo Schick

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Transcript

[David Dimbleby]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.

[Amica Insurance Representative]

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[Paul McGann]

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[Geoffrey Wansell]

I saw that ship sink and I.

[David Dimbleby]

Saw that ship break in half.

[Paul McGann]

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[David Dimbleby]

BBC Sounds Music Radio podcasts.

[Angela Kilmartin]

The Alexander palace car park was packed with coaches.

[David Dimbleby]

It's a crisp spring day in 1997.

[Angela Kilmartin]

They came from all over. Ants. Just like ants in this huge hall.

[David Dimbleby]

Angela Kilmartin has traveled up from her home in Essex.

[Angela Kilmartin]

Over 10,000 people jammed in it.

[Amica Insurance Representative]

There's a wind blowing across the land.

[Angela Kilmartin]

We're all of one mind. And that was to save the country.

[David Dimbleby]

This was the biggest gathering yet of what people were calling the rabble army.

[Amica Insurance Representative]

They're the rabble army. They've come from every side and they'd.

[David Dimbleby]

Come to see one man.

[Geoffrey Wansell]

Under such circumstances, the only valid policy is to say no.

[David Dimbleby]

He was making a fervent argument that the political consensus was doing Britain harm.

[Geoffrey Wansell]

The juggernaut cannot be tinkered with. It must be stopped in its tracks and reversed.

[Angela Kilmartin]

The emotion was absolute excitement and thrill. We owed it to that man.

[David Dimbleby]

He was promising to take down the establishment, to go against the last 30 years of economic dogma.

[Angela Kilmartin]

It was almost an insurrection. To hell with it. We were on a mission and all of us involved in it were going to see it through to the very end.

[David Dimbleby]

He was saying that the dream of the free market, the dream of Anthony Fisher, the chicken farmer, and Keith Joseph and Margaret Thatcher, had failed.

[Geoffrey Wansell]

What I'm saying at this stage is that if purely for an economic doctrine, you have a situation whereby the economy grows, that you create poverty, unemployment and you destabilize the society, you're in trouble.

[David Dimbleby]

But this man wasn't an activist or a man of the people. He was a billionaire, a free marketeer who'd pioneered the tactic of brutal corporate raiding. A man so notorious that two Bond villains were said to be Based on him, his name, James Goldsmith.

[Geoffrey Wansell]

There's a massive schism between those who believe in the continuity of our society and those who wish to destroy it. Those who wish to destroy it are my enemies.

[David Dimbleby]

And this billionaire, a villain to some, a folk hero to others, was turning on the very force that had created him. Few suspected it then, but he was offering a vision that would perhaps predict the future. My fellow Americans, this is Liberation Day. For decades our country has been looted, pillaged, raped and plundered by nations near and far. I'm David Dimbleby and from the history podcast and BBC Radio 4, this is invisible Hands, the story of the free market revolution. A hidden force that changed Britain forever. And the invisible hands that shaped it. Episode 5 the Lucky Gambler by the 1990s, Thatcher's free market revolution had reshaped Britain. Big Bang had transformed the city of London and money was pouring into the country from all over the world. Britain was now part of a global free market. Free trade, free enterprise, these were the watchwords. And then in 1997, after 18 years of Tory rule, the country had the chance to vote for change. Enter Tony Blair. We live in an era of extraordinary revolutionary change. At work, at home, through technology, through the million marvels of modern science. The possibilities are exciting. Blair was offering something different in terms of style. He was young, he was exciting. Blur songs were played at his rallies and the Spice Girls were fans. Tony Blair. And if you don't know anything about you, you go there and you take Tony Blair's the Sandman is a Man, Power to the people. But when it came to the economy, he didn't seem to be offering anything very different. A stable economy, long term investment, the enterprise of our people set free. In fact, Blair wasn't promising to undo Thatcher's free market legacy, not at all. If anything, he was endorsing it. Imagine Britain, a leading player in Europe once more, a force for good, promoting democracy and civil rights and free trade between nations. The post war consensus had been replaced by a new one. The free market worked. That was the message being offered by both parties. But there was one man in this election campaign who didn't buy it. Someone who saw the problems the new consensus was creating. James Goldsmith.

[James Goldsmith]

He was a misfit. He was just a complete maverick, an individual.

[David Dimbleby]

That's Geoffrey Wansell. He used to work for Goldsmith and he ended up writing a book about him.

[James Goldsmith]

Jimmy didn't mind being an outsider. In fact, he rather relished it. And that's something that I think plays into the way in which he conducted his affairs, both personal and commercial, and the way that he saw the world in which he lived.

[David Dimbleby]

To understand how James Goldsmith ended up prophesying the pitfalls of the free market, we have to understand where he came from. Because this misfit and maverick actually started out as the ultimate free marketeer, someone way ahead of the curve.

[James Goldsmith]

He wanted to deal in some ways not unlike Donald Trump, and he wanted to do it at pace.

[David Dimbleby]

Goldsmith was famous for being a gambler. Back in his school days at Eton, he'd placed a 10 pound accumulator bet on a horse at Lewis Racetrack and it comes in. He won big. £8,000. That's £350,000 in today's money. And so he went to his housemaster and said, no one with my means should remain a schoolboy at Eton. And he promptly left. He was just 16. He was clearly going to make his own way in life.

[James Goldsmith]

He didn't care for establishments and ever did.

[David Dimbleby]

What Goldsmith did care about was money.

[James Goldsmith]

He wanted to establish the Goldsmith name and to make a colossal fortune.

[David Dimbleby]

And so he went into business. But in the 1960s, it wasn't clear the Goldsmith's gambles would pay off. He was probably more famous for being a bit of a playboy. There were headlines when he eloped with an 18 year old Bolivian heiress. Whirlwind romance that began in London on Coronation Day seems to have captured the imagination of the world. He had a succession of wives and mistresses. He married his secretary. And for most of his life he kept two households, one in London and one in Paris. At dinner parties, he used to say, when a man marries his mistress, he creates a job vacancy. But Goldsmith was still looking for a big business opportunity. And then in 1971, he took a gamble.

[James Goldsmith]

So he decides he's gonna buy Bovril.

[David Dimbleby]

Bovril, yes, that's right. There's beef and real goodness concentrated into every spoonful.

[Angela Kilmartin]

And that lovely beefy taste.

[David Dimbleby]

A drink made from beef stock. I remember as a child we used to be given it after swimming on a cold, blustery day in the sea. And I remember it tasting rich and warming. It was about as and well established a company as you could get in Britain. And that's what caught Goldsmith's eye. He realized that Bovril, with its old fashioned ways, was stuck in the past. Goldsmith was going to shake it up. And what that meant in the case of Bovril was seeing that the company was more than just that dark beef.

[James Goldsmith]

Drink he would love reading balance sheets and he would say what was that? You know, some tiny detail that nobody had paid any attention to. And that's what he always concentrated on. Where is the value in your company?

[David Dimbleby]

In Bovril. Goldsmith saw the value was not in the drink, but in the vast ranches that Bovril owned in Argentina. And so he took a gamble. He bought Bovril. He paid far more than anybody thought the company was worth because he understood where the hidden value was. Once he was running the place, he sold the ranching side of the business for a massive profit. This became Goldsmith's tactic. Understand where the hidden value lies in a company and then ruthlessly exploit it.

[James Goldsmith]

What they were buying is these awful companies, and they were selling the bits they didn't want, reconstructing the good bits, and then they went on to the next one, and it was exactly the same. And that process of capitalism, if you like, was his fingerprint.

[David Dimbleby]

Goldsmith was a free marketeer in the guise of Fisher and Joseph and Thatcher. But he wasn't dealing in the marketplace of ideas. He was doing it as a businessman. He was exploiting the brutal logic of the free market for his own profit.

[James Goldsmith]

The city establishment hated it.

[David Dimbleby]

The old guard in the city of London were appalled by this flashy young upstart who wasn't at all the type of person they were used to doing business with.

[James Goldsmith]

I mean, he was absolutely not their cup of tea.

[David Dimbleby]

And then came the 1980s. Margaret Thatcher had been elected and, as we've heard, cut regulations and embraced entrepreneurs.

[Angela Kilmartin]

You know, the great surges of progress.

[David Dimbleby]

On prosperity in this country didn't come.

[Angela Kilmartin]

Directly from government action. They came from free men working in a free society.

[David Dimbleby]

Something else was happening, too. Governments in the west had always done business together, but they had maintained tight controls over trade between countries in other parts of the world, Asia and China. But now tariffs were being slashed, regulations were being stripped back, and money was flowing far more freely. This was globalization. The free market unleashed on a global scale. And Goldsmith duly expanded his business empire right round the world.

[James Goldsmith]

He ended up owning all kinds of things, you know, whether it's forests in South America or the supermarkets in the United States.

[David Dimbleby]

At one point, he became one of the biggest private landowners in the United States. All through buying and selling companies, Goldsmith was powerful, untouchable, and richer than ever. This was the era of Goldsmith. I am not a destroyer of companies, I am a liberator of them. The point is, ladies and gentlemen, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. And then he took his biggest gamble yet. I remember it well because I Met him quite by chance on a Saturday morning at the Rodin Museum in Paris. We stood talking for a bit and then he said, out of the blue, if you have any shares, my advice is sell them now. I actually didn't take much notice because I didn't have any shares. But sure enough, two days later, the stock market crashed.

[Amica Insurance Representative]

Today is Black Monday, the day the Dow dropped more than 500 points around the world stock markets faster than a skydiver without a parachute.

[David Dimbleby]

And Goldsmith had followed his instinct. He'd sold everything. He made the COVID of Time magazine with the headline the Lucky Gambler. And then he disappeared.

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[David Dimbleby]

A few years after that stock market crash, Jeffrey Wansel tracked James Goldsmith down to a remote on the Pacific coast of Mexico, halfway around the world. As his plane descended, he looked down on a vast stretch of coastline. Jungle creeping up to the water's edge and then coming into view.

[James Goldsmith]

It was an extraordinary. Well, house is a bit of a sort of understatement really. It was a giant domed building out.

[David Dimbleby]

Here in the middle of nowhere. Goldsmith was building something that looked like a lair fit for a Bond villain.

[James Goldsmith]

Decorations, a huge statue of a rhinoceros and a gorilla. It was breathtaking. I said, jimmy, you know, this does look extraordinary, like Citizen Kane. And he laughed slightly nervously.

[David Dimbleby]

I'll let you in on a little secret. It's also my pleasure to see to it the decent hard working people in this community aren't robbed by a pack of money mad pirates just because they haven't anybody to look after their interests. Just like Citizen Kane, James Goldsmith wasn't going to stay still. This was a man who wanted to leave his mark on the world. And it turns out that here in this jungle hideout, he was plotting not another business deal, but instead an attack on the establishment.

[James Goldsmith]

There's the outsider again. Outsider at Eaton, the outsider in the City of London. He always cast himself as fighting against the system rather than defending it.

[David Dimbleby]

Except this time, the system he was plotting to take down was the very system that had created him. In November 1994, James Goldsmith took a flight to Washington. James, we are grateful to you for gracing our committee. The US Congress was debating a major global free trade deal and Goldsmith was the master of the markets. If he had something to say, people would listen. Lets have what opening comments you have and then the questions from the members. Goldsmith eyes the chairman, then back to his notes, adjusting his glasses.

[Geoffrey Wansell]

Thank you Mr. Chairman.

[David Dimbleby]

And realizes some of the most powerful people in the world have his attention.

[Geoffrey Wansell]

The world has changed totally. The Berlin Wall has fallen.

[David Dimbleby]

Goldsmith was saying capitalism had won. We were all now part of a huge interconnected free market, not just in Eastern Europe.

[Geoffrey Wansell]

4 billion people who previously had been separated from the world economy have joined the world economy. Chinese, Indians, Indochinese, Vietnamese, Indonesians, Bangladeshis.

[David Dimbleby]

This had changed things. People in these countries could now work and make things for far less money than anyone in America, in France or in Britain.

[Geoffrey Wansell]

Skilled and hard working people.

[David Dimbleby]

And so all the jobs that were once done in these places were going abroad.

[Geoffrey Wansell]

When you get to a system whereby so as to get the best corporate profits, you have to leave your own country, you have to say to your own salesforce, goodbye, we can't use you anymore, you're too expensive, you got unions, you want holidays, you want protection. So we're going offshore. That is like making a profit on the deck of a Titanic.

[David Dimbleby]

He was saying that it was short sighted to make a profit if it meant sinking the country you lived in. Years and years of free market progress was actually destroying our society.

[Geoffrey Wansell]

We have profoundly destabilized our communities, uprooted people from the countrysides, we've shoved them into towns, we haven't given jobs, we've created ghettos and underclasses, we've increased crime and drug addiction and family breakdown. All this in a period of maximum prosperity. Why? Because we were only interested in economic indices. We forgot that the purpose of the economy is not just to improve the index, it is to improve prosperity along with social stability and social contentment.

[David Dimbleby]

A rampant capitalist system with no checks in place, he said, was a ticket to the collapse of society.

[Geoffrey Wansell]

We've just forgotten what the economy is about, what its purpose is.

[David Dimbleby]

Prosperity and stability for everyone. And then he came to his dramatic conclusion.

[Geoffrey Wansell]

But the one thing which is certain is bottom line, this is giving up national sovereignty.

[David Dimbleby]

Goldsmith was doing what Goldsmith had always done. He was taking on the establishment. Except this time the establishment was his own people, the global elites, the forces of globalization from which he'd made his money. He was now ready to take these ideas to the public. He decided the only way to change society the way he wanted it to be changed was to run a political campaign. And in Britain there was an election coming up, an election between two main parties, each totally committed to the idea of global free markets. It was an election ripe to be raided.

[Angela Kilmartin]

I was not political at that point. He stood like a beacon, shoulders head and shoulders above the rest of all the other politicians.

[David Dimbleby]

This is Angela Kilmartin, a former opera singer, model and campaigner from Essex. One day in 1995, she spots a tiny advertisement in the Daily Telegraph from a man called Sir James Goldsmith. He's on the lookout for candidates to run in the upcoming general election.

[Angela Kilmartin]

Immediately, I reached for an envelope and a piece of paper and banged it into the mail on a first class stamp.

[David Dimbleby]

She didn't know much about the free market or about globalization, but she didn't feel represented by by either of the main political parties.

[Angela Kilmartin]

He came up from, if you like, a political swamp and rose above it all a bit like a scalaba coming up out of the lake.

[David Dimbleby]

Goldsmith had identified a gap in the British election market. In Britain, the Government had recently signed the Treaty of Maastricht. German European Commissioner Martin Bangerman said the Maastricht Treaty was an important step along the road to a federal Europe. And Goldsmith believed this was a terrible mistake. That the ever growing, ever more powerful European Union was a vehicle for this new and dangerous globalisation that he'd identified and that Britain was in danger of losing control over its future.

[Geoffrey Wansell]

Who are these people who were so keen to surrender our hard fought freedoms? They are the political bureaucratic, business and media establishment, the group that controls the levers of power.

[Angela Kilmartin]

I think I saw it as a group of people who weren't busy looking after Great Britain and that Sir James was, and he was passionate enough to stand up by himself and he deserved support of all of us.

[David Dimbleby]

Goldsmith, ever the opportunist, founded a new political party, the Referendum Party. Its one clear policy goal was to force a referendum on membership of the European Union. He would stand himself as a candidate for Parliament and the party would put up 547 candidates in all, all across the country, whatever it took.

[Geoffrey Wansell]

Freedom has to be fought for and it is only those who do so who deserve to be free. We urge you on this occasion to put nation above party and vote for the Referendum Party.

[David Dimbleby]

Angela was inspired. She got a reply. She was in and she would be standing for the Referendum Party in her home constituency of Brentwood and Ongar.

[Angela Kilmartin]

I rose up three months. It was like Lazarus. Mrs. Lazarus was what I was.

[David Dimbleby]

She soon found that others were feeling the same as her. Later that year she headed to Brighton where the Referendum Party were holding their first, nearly 300 have helped organize it. Nearly 5,000 have said they want to come. It could have been any party political conference, only it was maybe more fun, bolder, more outrageous. Tonight, Sir Jane's friends followers have been putting the party back into politics.

[Angela Kilmartin]

The overall excitement throughout this huge hall and the array of people on, on the stage, you just felt it.

[David Dimbleby]

So is it money buying the appearance of power, or will they be able to demonstrate real political clout? Referendum Party candidates came from all over the place. There were farmers, there were aristocrats. The Earl of Durham was one candidate. There were climate change sceptics and environmentalists. John Aspinall, who was Lord Lucan, and James Goldsmith's old gambling buddy and a zoo owner, was running in Folkestone and Hythe. It was a ragtag bunch, but they embraced that. They called themselves the Rabble army and they even had their own song.

[Amica Insurance Representative]

They're the Rabble army singing Let the People Decide.

[David Dimbleby]

They were led, of course, by their leader, James Goldsmith, who travelled to party rallies in A boat, Boeing 757, kitted out in the party colors. The plane, which was actually far too big for most regional airports, carried Goldsmith's signature registration, the letters au, the chemical symbol for gold. I'd been reporting on politics for 30 years and I'd never seen anything quite like this. This was an insurgent, populist campaign on a national scale. No one actually expected them to win, but the truth is we had no real idea how well they'd do. And so the 1st of May 1997 rolled around and I was once again presenting the coverage of the election for the BBC. If the opinion polls through this campaign are borne out tonight, we're likely to see one of the biggest political upsets since the Tories were swept out of office in 1945. Very early on, it was clear that Labour was going to win a landslide. There it is, 10 o'clock and we say Tony Blair is to be Prime Minister and a landslide is likely. But of course, this wasn't the only story that night. Sir James Goldsmith, who founded the Referendum Party, arriving looking extremely cheerful at Putney. He may have looked cheerful, but he didn't win. In fact, he came fourth with a miserable 3.5% of the vote. But he didn't seem to care. He was loving the theatre of it all, gleefully leading chants of Out.

[Angela Kilmartin]

Out.

[David Dimbleby]

Out. At the defeated Tory candidate, David Mellor. There were rather wild scenes at Putney when David Mellor's defeat was announced a moment ago, when Mellor got up to deliver his speech. He was graceful in defeat to everyone but Goldsmith, to Sir James Goldsmith, who's got nothing to be smug about. And we have shown tonight that the Referendum Party is dead in the water. And, Sir James, you can get off back to Mexico knowing your attempt to buy the British political system has failed. The Referendum Party itself didn't get a single seat. The establishment had won. They'd seen off the threat from a radical upstart. But had Goldsmith and his Referendum Party really lost because they'd planted a seed. They'd made Europe a national issue, one that the main parties would come to find they could not ignore. Almost 20 years later, on 23 June 2016, it looks as though the gap's going to be something like 52 to 48. The British people have spoken and the answer is we're out. And then just a few months after.

[Amica Insurance Representative]

That, it is my high honor and.

[David Dimbleby]

Distinct privilege to introduce to you the President Elect of the United States of America, Donald Trump. Another businessman, another outsider, another man setting out to fight the establishment. It is time to drain the swamp. In Washington, D.C. a movement that claimed to speak for the forgotten people. The forgotten men and women of our country will be forgotten no longer. And now here we are in 2025 and Donald Trump is back in power. He stopped the global free market in its tracks, propelled by popular support, by increasing inequalities in wealth and by disaffection with the establishment. Tariffs are going to make us rich as hell. It's going to bring our country's businesses back. That left us just as James Goldsmith had predicted. That's next time on Invisible Hands. Invisible Hands is from The History Podcast, Radio 4's home for story driven history documentaries. And if you subscribe on BBC Sounds and switch on push notifications, we'll tell you as soon as new episodes of this series become available. Invisible Hands is a Sam Asdat audio production for BBC Radio 4 and the History Podcast. It's hosted by me, David Dimbleby. The producer is Joe Barrett. The executive producers and story editors are Joe Sykes and Dasha Lisitsina. Sound designed by Peregrine Andrews. The commissioning editor at Radio 4 is Dan Clark. And our thanks to Phil Tinline, Peggy Sutton and Leo Schick.

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[Paul McGann]

Titanic Ship of Dreams, the new podcast from the award winning Noiser Network. Join me, Paul McGann, as we explore life and death on Titanic. I'll delve into my own family story following my great uncle Jimmy as he tries to escape the engine room. We'll hear the harrowing tales of the victims and the testimonies of the lucky survivors.

[Geoffrey Wansell]

I saw that ship sink and I.

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Saw that ship break in half.

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