The History Podcast

Episode: The Arrest: 3. The Judge

Host: Philippe Sands (BBC Radio 4)
Date: December 3, 2025

Overview

This episode dives into the tense, behind-the-scenes legal maneuvers during the international effort to apprehend Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet in London, 1998. The focus lies on the pivotal role played by fearless Spanish judge Baltazar Garzon and Spanish lawyer Juan Garces as they confront resistance within Spain’s own legal system and race against the clock to seize a fleeting opportunity for justice. Through firsthand accounts and richly detailed narration, the episode lays bare the complexity, internal politics, and high stakes of a case that would shape the concept of global accountability for former heads of state.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Pinochet Opportunity and Internal Opposition

• Setting the Stage (01:06–04:42):
  • Spanish lawyer Juan Garces recognizes an unprecedented opportunity to act as word arrives that Pinochet is in London.
  • Despite urgency, Garces faces serious institutional resistance at home, notably from Spain’s Prosecutor of the National Court of Justice, Mr. Fungarinho, described as “very conservative” (01:57).
  • Garces and Spanish prosecutor Carlos Castrosana suspect clandestine Chilean influence on Spanish authorities designed to close the case, catalyzed by a secret visit from the Chilean General Silva (02:32–02:47).
  • Precedent from an Argentine case—where Interpol surprisingly accepted an international arrest warrant for a former head of state in 1997 (03:39–03:44)—fuels hope but also confronts entrenched beliefs about immunity for ex-leaders.

2. Judicial Politics and Bold Moves

• Looking for a “Rescue Route” (04:42–06:12):
  • Garces identifies the need for a bolder, more proactive judicial partner, fearing the judge currently handling his case lacks the courage for swift action.
  • Strategy shifts to approaching Judge Baltazar Garzon, notable for his fearlessness and successful pursuit of Argentina-related cases.
• Garzon’s Calculated Involvement (06:12–09:39):
  • Judge Garzon recalls their initial meeting and the urgency Garces expresses:

    “Pinochet is in London… I would like him to make a statement, to take a declaration.” — Judge Baltazar Garzon (06:12–06:43)

  • Garces highlights Operation Condor’s transnational repression—a critical legal link between Chile and Argentina that Garzon had already shown willingness to pursue.

    “I had filed a complaint in the court of Judge Carson about Operation Condor.” — Lawyer Juan Garces (08:05–08:22) “At Chilean opposition leader was arrested in Buenos Aires… transferred to Chile, where he disappeared, was tortured and disappeared.” — Lawyer Juan Garces (08:45–09:16)

  • Garzon contemplates the legal and professional dynamics, betting that his involvement might spur the original judge into action via professional rivalry:

    “Go and tell the judge that I am going to take that statement, and I am sure that if you say that, he will say he will do it.” — Judge Baltazar Garzon (09:39–09:53)

3. Escalating International Coordination

• Garzon’s Decision to Act (10:31–13:35):
  • Unable to resist the significance of the moment, Garzon commits to acting directly:

    “I didn’t have or couldn’t establish the criteria to say no.” — Judge Baltazar Garzon (10:31–10:37)

  • He reaches out to Scotland Yard (Metropolitan Police) via Interpol, seeking not just confirmation of Pinochet’s whereabouts but also the possibility of formally questioning him.
• British Response and Diplomatic Intrigue (12:02–13:35):
  • Scotland Yard at first rebuffs Garzon’s inquiry, provoking his annoyance:

    “I received… a rather guarded reply from Scotland Yard, more or less saying, we don’t have to tell you. Why do we have to tell you? I read it and it pissed me off.” — Judge Baltazar Garzon (12:02–12:10)

  • Intervention by British diplomat John Dew (from the embassy in Spain), who smooths things over, leads to renewed and more helpful communication:

    “You’ll find Scotland Yard more cooperative from now on, Dew promised him.” — Philippe Sands (12:38–12:42)

  • Scotland Yard provides details and wants to know Garzon’s next steps:

    “Indeed, Pinochet is in London. He is in a clinic on the outskirts of the city. Tell us what you want.” — Judge Baltazar Garzon (13:35–13:50)

4. Race Against Time and Last-minute Obstacles

• The Window Closes (13:51–14:44):
  • Garzon prepares to fly to London to question Pinochet, telling Scotland Yard to “keep him there until then.”
  • Abruptly, he receives notice that Pinochet is due to leave the next day — an unexpected reversal:

    “On Friday at 1:30, almost 2 in the afternoon, I receive a message in which Scotland Yard tells me that Pinochet is leaving the next day.” — Judge Baltazar Garzon (14:17–14:30)

  • Desperation sets in as Garzon realizes he cannot reach London in time:

    “The statement is not going to be possible. We won’t be able to stop him from leaving. Tell us what we should do.” — Judge Baltazar Garzon (14:37–14:44)

  • The episode ends on a cliffhanger: the fleeting opportunity to confront Pinochet may be lost forever.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On clandestine interference:

  “General Silva come with the mandate of closing the case.” — Lawyer Juan Garces (02:40)

• On the transformative legal moment:

  “And to our surprise, Interpol accepted.” — Lawyer Juan Garces (03:39)

• On judicial rivalry as a tactic:

  “Go and tell the judge that I am going to take that statement, and I am sure that if you say that, he will say he will do it.” — Judge Baltazar Garzon (09:39)

• On diplomatic back-channel problem solving:

  “You’ll find Scotland Yard more cooperative from now on, Dew promised him.” — Philippe Sands (12:42)

• On the disturbing sense of time running out:

  “The statement is not going to be possible. We won’t be able to stop him from leaving. Tell us what we should do.” — Judge Baltazar Garzon (14:37–14:44)

Important Timestamps

• 01:06–04:42: Initial context; Garces faces internal opposition as Pinochet’s presence in London presents an opportunity.
• 06:12–09:53: Judge Garzon and Garces meet; Operation Condor’s importance; judicial politics.
• 10:31–13:51: Garzon takes decisive steps; attempted coordination with Scotland Yard; British diplomatic intervention.
• 14:17–14:44: Last-minute alert—Pinochet’s imminent departure threatens to upend months of legal work.

Tone and Style

The episode is urgent, meticulous, and laced with both tension and a sense of historical significance. The speakers are matter-of-fact yet emotionally invested, revealing personal frustrations, strategic calculations, and the irrepressible drive for justice even in the face of political and bureaucratic resistance.

Summary prepared for listeners seeking a thorough understanding of the episode's central events, characters, and themes.