The Fort: 10. Mathew

Summary

The History Podcast – "The Fort: 10. Mathew" (BBC Radio 4)

Date: September 18, 2025
Topic: Commanders, soldiers, and pilots recount a harrowing assault in Afghanistan, focusing on Lance Corporal Matthew Ford's death and a dramatic rescue mission.

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Overview

This episode revisits the 2007 assault on Jugroom (Juggernau) Fort in Afghanistan, centering on the fatal wounding of Royal Marine Lance Corporal Matthew Ford and the extraordinary and unorthodox mission mounted to recover him. Through the voices of commanders, Apache pilots, and Ford’s mother, the story explores themes of sacrifice, military decision-making under extreme pressure, heroism, and the lasting impact on soldiers and families.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Matthew Ford’s Journey into the Marines

• Joan Ford, Matthew’s mother, reflects on his unlikely path into the Royal Marines, her skepticism about him passing, and her pride in his transformation (01:10).
  • "He stood in that doorway and he says, 'I've got something to tell you, Mum. You're not gonna like it. I've joined the Marines.' ...when he did, he come out with flying colours."
    — Joan Ford [01:10]
• Joan recounts the shock of learning about Matthew's death and her immediate assumption that something was wrong when summoned at work (01:10–02:28).

2. The Rescue Mission: Risk and Audacity

• Apache pilot Ed Macy and Colonel David Amlow discuss the mission to retrieve Ford using Apache helicopters—a move outside standard regulations (02:28–05:20).
  • There was confusion over the command chain and authorization, with Macy noting the fury from senior command due to rule-breaking (03:19).
    • "He just told us that we broke a whole load of rules that we should never have strapped Marines to the outside of the aircraft."
      — Ed Macy [03:41]
• The mission involved huge risks: rare helicopters, highly trained crews, and Marines riding on the aircraft’s stub wings.
• Major General Neil Sexton underscores the high stakes and potential for catastrophic loss:
  • "The loss of two of them by enemy fire would have been a national catastrophe...not just the aircraft, but the fact that four highly trained pilots, and let's not forget, Marines on the stub wings, would be potentially lost as well."
    — Neil Sexton [04:10]

3. Risk Mitigation and Decision-Making

• Colonel Amlow outlines measures protecting the rescue: coordinated air assets (B1 bomber, A-10s), ground artillery, live intelligence feeds, direct communication with crews (05:20).
• The decision to attempt such a perilous rescue is justified by the responsibility and value attributed to every British soldier.
  • "The minute this country sent him to war, that's when it was worth it."
    — Tom O'Malley [08:19]
  • "Every soldier on that battlefield...absolutely deserved 100% of everything that was available to make sure that they get home."
    — Tom O'Malley [08:21]

4. Aftermath: Recognition and Inquiry

• Acts of extraordinary bravery led to awards:
  • Tom O'Malley received the Distinguished Flying Cross; Ed Macy and others, the Military Cross; other crew members earned commendations (05:20–06:51, 14:28–15:31).
  • Memorable meetings with Prince Philip and Queen Elizabeth highlighted the uniqueness of the action and the recognition given (14:28–14:57).
    • "I was awarded Distinguished Flying Cross...She said, 'I understand that what you did had never been done before.'"
      — Tom O'Malley [14:57]

5. Matthew Ford’s Loss and Friendly Fire Revelation

• The distressing possibility and later confirmation of friendly fire as the cause of Ford’s death triggered further trauma and inquiry (11:36–12:25).
  • "A gunner in one of the vehicles opened fire. On his own men. Four were injured and Lance Corporal Ford was killed."
    — Dave Rigg [12:02]
• Ed Macy reflects on the shock of realizing the situation:
  • "He'd shot into an area that he believed he was helping the Marines, and the result was he'd shot several of them in one go. I just felt really sick to my core, thinking, what's that boy going through?"
    — Ed Macy [12:25]
• Lieutenant General Rob McGowan discusses the difficulty of communicating crucial decisions and the inherent uncertainty of war (12:42).
  • "It's not clear how he died...these things happen in war, and it's our collective ability to deal with this uncertainty..."
    — Rob McGowan [12:42]

6. Impact on Individuals and the Force

• Glyn Sadler and Chris Witts capture the psychological impact, from survivor’s guilt to lasting PTSD and the surreal transition back to civilian life (18:11–19:31).
  • "Within 48 hours, my wife and I are sat in a Jacuzzi...my mates are all sat in the desert. It was just mind blowing, you know, it was so, so strange for me."
    — Glyn Sadler [18:11]
  • "It became quite a core memory. It became quite a triggering memory. It affects you, it changes your mentality, it changes how you view life."
    — Chris Witts [19:31]
• The importance of not leaving a comrade's body behind is emphasized for morale and preventing propaganda victory for the Taliban (20:41–21:08).
  • "The Taliban would have used the body of a British soldier to their advantage. They would have used them in terrible ways to promote their cause and we couldn't allow that."
    — Rob McGowan [20:51]
• Joan Ford’s gratitude for the recovery of her son, and the comfort that brings, is poignantly expressed at his graveside (21:14).

7. Lessons, Leadership, and Legacy

• Tom O'Malley and Lieutenant General McGowan reflect on the need for calculated risk, effective communication, leadership that inspires, and the unpredictable elements that define warfare (17:08–18:11).
  • "A calculated risk taking mentality should continue to be encouraged...what I think is the single biggest variable...is that element of surprise."
    — Tom O'Malley [17:08]
• Dave Rigg and others touch on the meaning of recognition, the nature of courage in service, and the subtle differences in how acts are honored across the military (15:31).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "The minute this country sent him to war, that's when [it] was worth it."
  — Tom O'Malley [08:19]
• "Knowing our guys are going to get looked after and we're not going to leave a man behind is exactly what they needed."
  — Ed Macy [08:52]
• "He'd shot into an area that he believed he was helping the Marines, and the result was he'd shot several of them in one go. I just felt really sick to my core."
  — Ed Macy [12:25]
• "The Taliban would have used the body of a British soldier to their advantage...and we couldn't allow that."
  — Rob McGowan [20:51]
• "He was brave, heroic. Not everybody would have done it, would there? I will always be grateful because I wouldn't have any of this if it weren't for them."
  — Joan Ford [21:14]

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• 01:10–02:28 – Joan Ford recounts Matthew’s decision to join the Marines and notification of his death.
• 02:28–05:20 – Pilots and commanders discuss the aftermath, the rescue plan, and risk.
• 05:20–06:51 – Citation and awards process following the mission.
• 06:51–08:52 – O'Malley and Macy justify the rescue; the morale aspect.
• 11:36–12:25 – Revelation and investigation into friendly fire as the cause of Ford’s death.
• 14:28–15:31 – Receiving awards and personal reflections on recognition.
• 18:11–19:31 – Adjusting to civilian life; survivor guilt.
• 21:14–23:11 – Joan Ford at her son’s grave, expressing gratitude and grief.

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Tone and Language

The episode blends frank military analysis, raw emotion, and reflection, shifting from operational detail to intimate family grief. Speakers move between military jargon, understated British reserve, and deeply personal vulnerability, capturing the complexity of war and its aftermath.

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Summary

"The Fort: 10. Mathew" gives a comprehensive, emotionally charged account of one of the most daring rescue missions in Afghanistan, the quest to recover Lance Corporal Matthew Ford by strapping Royal Marines to the outside of Apache helicopters. Through first-hand testimony, it explores the ethics of risk, the agony of loss, the scars of war, the importance of recognition and leadership, and the profound impact on individuals and families. The episode stands as a tribute to courage, sacrifice, and the enduring bonds of military brotherhood.

Transcript

[Lieutenant General Rob McGowan]

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[Neil Sexton]

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[Alex von Tanzelman]

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[Joan Ford]

I just.

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[Joan Ford]

I'll never forget it. He came in and he stood in that doorway and he says, I've got something to tell you, Mum. You're not gonna like it. He says, I've joined the Marines. What? He's a funny kid, really, because he won't fight. He would walk away. I never thought he'd pass to be in the Marines. Never. And yet when he did, he come out with flying colours. So he proved me wrong there, didn't he? My name is Joan Ford and I am Lance Corporal Matthew Ford's mum. Somebody come and got me from where I was working and said, there's an army officer at your door. And I was called out and went into the office. My youngest son come. I thought something had happened to one of my youngest son's children. And I went all through the grandkids and that and he says, no, Mum. And he started crying and he says, it's Matthew.

[Ed Macy]

Ed Macy, former Apache pilot. I saw the boss coming towards us, Dave Amelo. So he shook hands. He said, yeah, get yourself in the ops room. Soon as you get back, the Colonel's here. It's going to be a difficult conversation.

[Colonel David Amlow]

My name is Colonel David amlodipine. Back in 2007, I was Major David Amlow, in charge of 656 Squadron, Army Air Corps. Once I'd seen the pilots, I informed them, obviously, that rightly so, My commanding officer, the commanding officer of the Joint Helicopter Force Afghanistan then, Lieutenant Colonel Neil Sexton, was going to be flying down from Kanahar so he could take part in a debrief. We had quite an abrupt conversation. It was a fairly tense period of time.

[Ed Macy]

The colonel in charge of our regiment had specifically said, that mission is not going to go ahead. We didn't know that. We thought when the brigadier had said yes, we'd got his authority, but he was absolutely furious. He was bouncing.

[Colonel David Amlow]

Colonel Neill had literally only been in Afghanistan for a few days, so this was absolutely a baptism by fire.

[Ed Macy]

He just told us that we broke a whole load of rules that we should never have strapped Marines to the outside of the aircraft. That was an emergency plan that was authorized to pick up a trained Apache crew. I was leaving the military anyway, so it didn't really affect me. And he said, well, don't be surprised if you don't get court martialed. To Tom, this was his life. He loved flying. He's the sky police. He keeps people right, he does the right thing. All Tom saw now was that there's a very good chance his military career's over.

[Neil Sexton]

I really wanted to make sure that they understood how much of a risk they had taken. So I'm Neil Sexton. I'm a retired major general from the army, and in 2007, I was a lieutenant colonel and I was the commander of the Joint Helicopter Force, Afghanistan. One of the challenges in Afghanistan in 2007 was this split location and split chain of command. As you can imagine, I was quite taken aback. This was all breaking news to us and to me and my chief of staff and indeed to the watchkeeper team in their quarters. I was impressed with what they'd done in terms of it being audacious, but I thought they'd taken a huge risk. Bear in mind, this was the very first deployment of British Apache helicopters. We didn't have that many of them. You can imagine that the loss of two of them by enemy fire would have been a national catastrophe for the British force in Afghanistan. Not just the aircraft, but the fact that four highly trained pilots, and let's not forget, Marines on the. On the stub wings, would be potentially lost as well.

[Colonel David Amlow]

I have every sympathy for his position in that. Without the same situational awareness that I was exposed to, without the same detail on all of the mitigations that were being put in place, it absolutely was a, you know, a high risk mission. It was not a traditional mission. I tried to explain the mitigations that we Put in place a joint air attack team with additional B1 bomber, an A10 on station. The 105 light guns having been resupplied. I had the fortune of having the situational awareness of the Nimrod downlink and being able to talk to the crews themselves. After the debrief, Colonel Neil went to go and see the brigade commander in Lashkagar Headquarters. Later that afternoon we were sat down together and it was absolutely apparent that there was some extraordinary acts conducted that day by both the Royal Marines and indeed the air crew. So it was time to put some pen to paper and indeed I started crafting some citations which then Colonel Neill took on and took forward and saw the results that we have today. Tom o' Malley was awarded a Distinguished Flying Cross for getting out and assisting the Royal Marines on the ground. Ed Macy and Jordy were awarded Military Crosses and as the aircraft commander for Ed's aircraft, Carl was awarded a Joint Commander's accommodation.

[Tom O'Malley]

Tom o'. Malley. This is Middle Wallop Army Flying Museum. Oh, there it is, there. Look down at the far end in all its splendor. It's only when you compare them next to other older aircraft, you realise just how big they are and how single purpose use they really are. There you go, the Apache. This is the actual aircraft that lifted Matthew from the battlefield and repatriated him at the Zulu Company lines. Right foot a. Left foot a grab handle there. Yeah. So Dave Rigg would have been sat there, his back would have been against the wing stub there and he would have been holding onto the. To the grab rail and obviously he's got a hand then free to use his personal weapon. As we went in, ultimately I was in charge and, you know, asked at what point I thought it was worth all of those assets, the two Apaches and the pilots and the Marines, to rescue one guy. And I just said the minute this country sent him to war, that's when.

[Ed Macy]

It was worth it.

[Tom O'Malley]

Every soldier on that battlefield who puts on a pair of boots and walks through that dust, he absolutely deserved 100% of everything that was available to make sure that they get home. It underpins everything. Imagine what would have happened to morale, not only a 45 commando to Zulu Company, but to every British soldier who took one step outside of a patrol base, thinking, I might not get sent home.

[Ed Macy]

Ed Macy, it was one of the RSMs of the Royal Marines up in Camp Bastion came to us. He said, was it you who flew that mission the other day for 40? And I went, yeah, that was me. And he Gave me. Ooh, I feel emotional. Sorry about that. He said, thank you. Knowing our guys are going to get looked after and we're not going to leave a man behind is exactly what they needed. You don't want to think you're out there, that if it all goes wrong, you're going to get left behind. We did bring him back and that's what we set out to do.

[Joan Ford]

He was good at school. He could draw as well. He's a beautiful drawer. Never in any trouble, never got into fights. When he got a bit older, he went kickboxing and that surprised me because I thought, my God, he's not got it in him, but he won trophies and what have you. He would never let me go, though, because he said that if I saw somebody hate him, I'd be in the ring after him, which I would have been. He rang me and told me just before Christmas that he was going to Afghanistan and he'd be home on leave in January. And the minute he said that, I knew they weren't gonna come back. Told me not to worry. And next thing we knew was that he'd been colonel. Every mother would worry that. And Matthew was just unlucky and he ended up getting shot. I did try stopping him, but, you know what's alike? He was determined to go. That's all there was to it.

[Lieutenant General Rob McGowan]

My name is Lieutenant General Rob McGowan. I'm the Deputy Chief of Defence Staff for Force development. Back in 2006, 07, I was the Commanding officer of. Of the Information Exploitation Group and I was a Lieutenant Colonel. There was so much tension and so much pressure. I left the command post after all this had happened. I went round the back, I went onto my haunches and I tried to cry and I couldn't cry, I just couldn't cry. But I wanted to let something out and at that moment it didn't happen.

[Joan Ford]

The next thing was we had two warrant officers come and they told us they was going to get to the bottom of what had actually happened.

[Tom O'Malley]

So this is the Board of Inquiry into the events of the day at Juggernau fort on the 15th of January. So I didn't have any awareness at all about discussion of friendly fire with regards to Matthew's wounds.

[Neil Sexton]

Now to other news.

[Ed Macy]

A Royal Marine who died in Afghanistan.

[Neil Sexton]

Last year was probably killed by a colleague. According to a Royal Navy Board of.

[Dave Rigg]

Inquiry, the troops from Zulu Company advanced in Viking armored vehicles similar to these before making the final assault on foot. But a gunner in one of the vehicles opened fire. On his own men. Four were injured and Lance Corporal Ford was killed. And they were, it said, serious deficiencies in the training phase.

[Ed Macy]

It was just shocking. I remember, just sat there numb for some time. He'd shot into an area that he believed he was helping the Marines, and the result was he'd shot several of them in one go. I just felt really sick to my core, thinking, what's that boy going through?

[Lieutenant General Rob McGowan]

There was an inquiry after it led by Colonel Bill Dunham. The lesson for me is there were things going on in my head which I wasn't necessarily communicating. And so when I decided, for example, that Zulu Company were going across the river, I think this was a surprise to Zulu Company, even though it was a be prepared to task. But I was thinking about this through the night. I was thinking all the time, will I launch Zulu Company or not? The lesson is, you need to communicate this to your people in terms of the rescue and losing Lance Corporal Ford in the way that we did. And it's not clear how he died. There was no conclusive proof that it was a blue on blue or it was a Taliban attack. These things happen in war, and it's our collective ability to deal with this uncertainty and this change and to remain cool as a commander at whatever level. And our training works. The tremendous bravery, tremendous command and control, coolness under pressure from all ranks. We can rely on our own training and our own mindset to get us through.

[Dave Rigg]

I'm Mike Cleary. On the day of Jug Run 4, I was a rifleman Marine. Further down the line, when I did get home, I remember reading some news article and it was basically just incompetent. Marines were untrained, all this nonsense, which I think it was disrespectful. We were Royal Marines, commandos that were trained day in, day out to do this exact type of operation. Or if it wasn't Zulu Company and it was Yankee Company from 45 Commando or Alpha Company from 40 Commando, it would have been done exactly the same.

[Ed Macy]

Tom and I and the other pilots had gone down to the Royal Marines headquarters. We'd been invited down. We weren't quite sure what it was for. When we got there, we realized that Prince Philip was there at the time. And he came up to me and he said, ah, who are you? And I gave him my Name and rank, W01. He said, no, it's W01MC. You've been awarded the Military Cross. Well done. Shook my hand and I just looked at the others thinking, wow. I was not expecting that.

[Tom O'Malley]

I was awarded Distinguished Flying Cross. I met Queen Elizabeth. I was staggered by the detail that she had. What she was asking me, you know, she's talking to all of these people getting MBE's for their charity fundraising, you know, awards for this and that. We were all together in a little block. It's almost like she must have had an earpiece in and somebody's telling her because she had that much detail and she said, I understand that what you did had never been done before. Yeah. And then we just started talking.

[Dave Rigg]

Captain Chris Fraser Perry. So I, I got that Joint Commander's Commendation and I just want to caveat. It's absolutely not about medals. We went back for 40. No one cares what the recognition was after that of the rescue. I guess you could summarize it as there was three Royal Marines and there was five army and the three Marines sort of got this piece of paper, but I guess Royal Marine Commandos and it's something that Winston Churchill said back in World War II, how commandos are expected to go above and beyond, and you could argue all of us did that day. I definitely missed sitting on the side of an Apache day in training.

[Lieutenant General Rob McGowan]

I've written a letter here in my role, dated 19 July 2007 and it says, dear Marine Fraser Perry, how delighted I was to see your name on the Joint Commander's Commendation List yesterday. Formal recognition for an act of extreme bravery.

[Dave Rigg]

Formal recognition for an act of extreme bravery in the face of the enemy to rescue a fallen man. I am very proud of what you did that day. Many congratulations. Yours ever, Rob McGowan. And now he's the Deputy Chief of Defence Staff. I always thought that was a very good touch and I've always remembered that. And I think it was almost what could set apart a good leader from a not so good leader. And was appreciative of that because it was equally a difficult decision for him to make. If anything had gone wrong, it would have all been on his head.

[Tom O'Malley]

So there's a point here in the Board of Inquiry findings that a calculated risk taking mentality should continue to be encouraged. At that time I had a lot of assets available to me that helped me reduce what I believed were the risks. But at the end of the day, what we do as attack aviators, what we do as soldiers and what the Royal Marines were doing on a daily basis was we were taking the fight to the enemy. What I think is the single biggest variable that you really can't quantify is that element of surprise. If you have a determined group of people that will do audacious things with courage and determination. You will succeed. I think the last thing that anybody expected was for the Apache to deliver four highly motivated Roar Marines to go and recover one of their brothers.

[Glyn Sadler]

I'm Glyn Sadler. I was a lance corporal attached to Zulu Company. I was two days from going on R and R leave back to the uk. The strange thing for me was going from that situation to being happy about coming home to see my own family, but also having this, like, survivor's guilt, you know, in terms of I'm getting to go home to see my family and obviously Fordy's family won't get to see him again within 48 hours. My wife and I are sat in a Jacuzzi because we sort of wanted to treat ourselves and my mates are all sat in the desert. It was just mind blowing, you know, it was so, so strange for me. Obviously, this is all over the news as well, and I'm having to sit and listen to other people's interpretations about what happened without a voice. I think we went shopping the next day. I distinctly remember being in a shop with a and there was a woman who was looking at two dresses and I was thinking, like, 40 hours ago, I was with a company in the desert in Afghanistan, Helma Province, making life or death decisions, and this woman can't decide whether she wants this white dress or this red dress. And it just blew my mind. It was just that time, that whole period, you know, the whole country knew what was going on, but it didn't seem to. Did they really know? You know, did they really know what's happening out there?

[Chris Witts]

My name is Chris Witts. I was a captain in the Royal Marines in 2007, in command of the Viking vehicles at Jugurum Fort. I left the Royal Marines in 2010, three years after I met my wife. It's an adjustment process for sure. I had about a year's worth of counseling when I got back from Afghanistan just to deal with some elements of ptsd, particularly around this event. The assault on drug run fraud. It became quite a core memory. It became quite a triggering memory. It affects you, it changes your mentality, it changes how you view life. And it takes some adapting to have those memories and be able to mold that into the rest of your life going forward. So Jugglen Fort was a big deal. I'm proud of what we did. The four Marines, or three Marines and one engineer who were on the wings of the Apache. Just unbelievably brave human beings just stepping right into the fray. The End of this story is really the bravery of the troops, how we solve the problem and you know, how the story is told afterwards.

[Dave Rigg]

I'm Dave Rigg.

[Ed Macy]

The Taliban would have used the body of a British soldier to their advantage. They would have used them in terrible.

[Lieutenant General Rob McGowan]

Ways to promote their cause and we couldn't allow that.

[Dave Rigg]

It was a risk, you know, we risked helicopters and people, but it had to be done and I'm glad we did it. Recovering his body for the, you know.

[Ed Macy]

For his family, for his mates, for.

[Dave Rigg]

The, for the regiment was very important.

[Joan Ford]

He was brave, heroic. Not everybody would have done it, would there? I will always be grateful because I wouldn't have any of this if it weren't for them. We're at the Mill Lane Cemetery. This is Matthew's bent. Well the council put it in poorers and they put it right opposite Matthew's grave so that with me not being able to stand for long, I can sit here and look at my son, the grave and tell him how much I love him and how much I miss him. It's a nice quiet spot as well. You hardly ever get anybody up here, so the only thing you do get master squirrels and the birds and a robin comes and sits on off his gravestone quite often. We've got pictures of it. Anyway, it's a sign of him coming back to me to let me know that he's alright. I mean, because when you think about it, I might not have had that because I found it hard to cope with now and if I didn't have somewhere to come I'd be completely lost. Completely. But it was a lovely lad.

[Tom O'Malley]

The Fort was produced by Kev Kaur. The editor was Sue Roberts. Sound was by Sharon Hughes. Tracy Williams was commissioning executive. The commissioning editor at Radio 4 was Dan Clark.

[Alex von Tanzelman]

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[Ed Macy]

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