The Fort: 8. Bullet Magnet

Summary

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The History Podcast – The Fort: 8. Bullet Magnet

BBC Radio 4 | Original Air Date: September 16, 2025
Episode Summary:

Overview

In this gripping episode, British commanders, soldiers, and Apache pilots recount a harrowing assault and an extraordinary rescue mission in Afghanistan. Through their firsthand accounts, listeners are drawn into the chaos, confusion, and courage that defined an operation to recover a fallen comrade, Lance Corporal Ford (“4D”), under intense enemy fire. The episode highlights the immense difficulties of battlefield coordination, the daunting physical and emotional challenges faced during casualty recovery, and the camaraderie and professionalism of those involved.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene – The Bullet Magnet

• [01:10] Captain Chris Fraser Perry opens candidly:
  “I'm right now sat next to a bullet magnet.”
  This immediately establishes the high-risk nature of the mission and camaraderie between the soldiers and pilots present.

2. The Assault and Initial Confusion

• [01:28] Lieutenant General Rob McGowan describes watching the mission unfold remotely via Predator drone:

  “We knew where Lance Corporal Ford was. The two helicopters landed...you lose complete situational awareness.”

• [01:55] Tom (Apache pilot) shares cockpit details, emphasizing careful preparation but also the ever-present unpredictability:

  “You get off the aircraft, the wall will be there.”
  “Run to the wall.” — Captain Chris Fraser Perry

• Marines land in a dust-swirled “brownout,” disoriented and under fire, highlighting the chaos of combat insertions.

3. Breakdown in Communication and Murphy’s Law

• [02:38] Tom recounts a fateful cockpit mishap:

  “What they call Murphy's Law, the Apache door. My mechanism was broken, so if I got out of the cockpit, I couldn't get back in.”

• Unplanned, Geordie (back seat pilot) jumps out to direct Marines amid intense risk:

  “I wouldn't ask anybody to do what I wasn't being prepared to do myself.”

• [03:32] Colonel David Amlow explains the challenge:

  “There was still a considerable amount of Taliban in and around the fort.... When Geordie gets out of the aircraft to help lead the Marines ... Tom immediately identifies movement in the fort itself, which is now only 15, 20 meters to his front.”

4. Stuck in the Cockpit and Under Fire

• [04:55] Tom, unable to fly due to a locked collective:

  “This is probably not the best place in the world to be, but I've got the best team in the world supporting me.”

• Tom calls in air cover from Nick and Charlotte in overhead Apaches, who begin suppressing enemy targets extremely close to their own men.

5. ‘Winchester’—Out of Ammo

• [06:31] Colonel David Amlow recounts:

  “…Charlotte had become the first British Apache pilot to Winchester her aircraft… was the first British pilot to completely empty it of ammunition.”

• [06:45] Charlotte recalls:

  “It was quite scary at the time. I was sort of wishing we had a little bit more because it didn't seem to last very long, even though there's quite a lot of it.”

6. Desperation and Extraction

• Tom describes the frantic moments as Geordie returns:

  “This guy is breathing through his ass. He is panting like you have never heard anybody pant.” [07:14]

• Despite exhaustion, Geordie releases the collective friction, and they lift off—still taking fire and with Marines perilously exposed on the helicopter wings:

  “Another two Talibs... I engage those even though the guys are on the wing. And I was just like, you know, clearly that's not a great thing because it's loud.” [07:20]

7. Recovery of Lance Corporal Ford (“4D”)

• [08:59] Captain Chris Fraser Perry details the challenge of finding and recovering the casualty:

  “The blades from the helicopter kick up all this loose and fine sand and dirt… you couldn’t see anything. … if I was a Taliban fighter, I'd be shooting at that dust cloud.”

• He describes the personal risk of running toward 4D, noting in hindsight the danger of possible booby traps:

  “Knowing what I know now, like booby traps and people just waiting for soldiers to come up to their injured... But I saw Matthew and just run straight towards him. And it's...very obvious that he was instantly killed.” [10:59]

• [11:19] Dave Regg shares his sense of helplessness:

  “Sadly, he's dead and, and we have to get them back. And that was quite difficult, partly because I didn't do a very good job of it...maybe I'm just making excuses, I don't know.”

8. Physical and Emotional Toll of Evacuation

• Both Dave and Captain Fraser Perry struggle to carry 4D’s body, burdened by equipment and stress:
  • “4D was sort of 6 foot 4, 6 foot 5. He had all his ops kit on, so he had all of the ammo scales, his armor, my armor, my ammo scales… it wasn't easy.” — Captain Fraser Perry [11:47]
  • “The old fireman's carry didn't work. I couldn't even lift him off the ground. I'd never had a problem with that before. ...there were two other Apaches in the air above us pulling down covering fire and there was a lot of gunfire. The empty shells from their 30mm cannon are sort of landing around our feet and I started to panic a little bit.” — Dave Regg [12:34]

9. Race Against Time & Extraction

• [13:36] Ed Macy, another Apache pilot, reflects on the expectation vs reality:

  “I expected to be on the ground for three minutes... Three minutes max. ...I think it's about four or five minutes... They looked exhausted. It's now desperation. I need to get out.”

• After debating with his own backseat pilot, Ed jumps out himself to assist—underscoring the tightrope between discipline and necessity.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• "You lose complete situational awareness."
  – Lieutenant General Rob McGowan [01:28]
• "If they're not briefed, they're no good."
  – Tom (Apache pilot) [02:38]
• “Winchester” – completely out of ammunition, unprecedented for a British Apache pilot in theatre.
  – Colonel David Amlow & Charlotte [06:31–06:45]
• "I was sort of wishing we had a little bit more [ammo]... it didn't seem to last very long."
  – Charlotte, Apache pilot [06:45]
• "I was physically strong and fit. So yeah, this was a different kettle of fish."
  – Dave Regg, on the emotional and physical weight of battlefield casualty recovery [12:34]
• "I expected to be on the ground for three minutes... It's now desperation. I need to get out."
  – Ed Macy [13:36]

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Segment Timestamps

| Time | Segment | |----------|------------------------------------------------------| | 01:10 | Introduction of key pilots and marines | | 01:28 | Command overview and helicopter landings | | 02:38 | Ground chaos & cockpit mishap explained | | 03:32 | Command and helicopter air support roles | | 04:55 | Tom stuck in cockpit; request for air suppression | | 06:31 | ‘Winchester’ - Charlotte runs out of ammo | | 07:14 | Geordie extraction; helicopter takes off under fire | | 08:59 | Marines’ struggle with brownout and confusion | | 11:19 | Discovery of Lance Corporal Ford | | 12:34 | Difficulty of evacuation under fire | | 13:36 | Pilot Ed Macy’s perspective on the ordeal |

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Tone and Atmosphere

The episode is intense, authentic, and moving. Speakers recount events with gritty detail and raw emotion, balancing professionalism with frank vulnerability. Camaraderie and mutual support permeate the narrative, set against the deadly uncertainty of close combat.

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Conclusion

“Bullet Magnet” stands as a stirring testimony to courage and improvisation under fire. The episode meticulously renders the unpredictable reality of modern warfare—moments of confusion, the grim calculus of combat, and the extraordinary efforts made to bring everyone home. The firsthand accounts immerse the listener in the dust, noise, and fear of Afghanistan, reminding us of both the human toll and the powerful bonds forged under fire.

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Transcript

[Narrator]

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[Captain Chris Fraser Perry]

I'm right now sat next to a bullet magnet.

[Dave Regg]

As soon as we touched down I was off.

[Captain Chris Fraser Perry]

So I jumped off the Apache and just ran forwards.

[Dave Regg]

The lead helicopter didn't hesitate, dived down into the dust cloud and disappeared.

[Narrator]

Lieutenant General Rob McGowan. I was the command officer. I watched them on the scope from the Predator. I watched them go across the river. We knew where Lance Corporal Ford was. The two helicopters landed. We then saw the four Marines disembark from the stub wings of the Apache. The confusion and noise and dust, you lose complete situational awareness.

[Tom (Apache pilot)]

So ugly. 50 lead aircraft. I was Tom in the front seat, Jordie was in the back seat. We had Colin who was sat on the right hand side and Gary was sat on the left hand side. The two Royal Marines that were on our aircraft, we landed inside the fort. The effect that that had was that when my two Marines got off, they did what they were told they were going to do and that was that. You get off the aircraft, the wall will be there.

[Captain Chris Fraser Perry]

Run to the wall.

[Tom (Apache pilot)]

There's the casualty.

[Narrator]

Colin, Hearn and Robinson. We could see they ran in the opposite direction to where Lance Corporal Ford.

[Tom (Apache pilot)]

Was and we're trying to get the guys to come back to helicopter and they're not getting it. You know the best hand Signals in the world. If they're not briefed, they're no good. What they call Murphy's Law, the Apache door. My mechanism was broken, so if I got out of the cockpit, I couldn't get back in. Jordy went, imma have to go and get him. And that didn't sit easy with me. I was the boss, you know, and I wouldn't ask anybody to do what I wasn't being prepared to do myself. And Jordie's like, yeah, no problem, Tom, you know, it's no problem. He unplugs, he jumps out, runs off. I'm sat in the cockpit, I didn't really plan to be here. And two Taliban come running into the area where I was.

[Colonel David Amlow]

My name is Colonel David Amlow. Back in 2007, I was Major David Amlow in charge of 656 Squadron, Army Air Corps. That included Apache helicopters and meant that I was the officer commanding both Air Tom o' Malley and Ed Macy in Cambasion. We had a downlink facility and I was watching the Nimrod. So the camera on the side of that aircraft, you could see the cold water in black of the Helmand river and the white hot of the buildings and the ground that had been recently engaged by the B1 bomber. So at the point at which Geordie gets out of the aircraft to help lead the Marines background to where Matthew 4 was lying, Tom immediately identifies movement in the fort itself, which is now only 15, 20 meters to his front.

[Tom (Apache pilot)]

So I think to myself, right, you know, I'm really not very well placed here.

[Colonel David Amlow]

There was still a considerable amount of Taliban in and around the fort. So even though his backseat pilot had jumped out, Tom was extremely keen on suppressing the enemy that he could see some movement, movement to his front. So he went to lift the aircraft into the hover. But being a very good rear seat pilot, his back seater had effectively applied a thing called the collective friction.

[Tom (Apache pilot)]

When you land, you go through a set of after landing checks and one of those after landing processes is to lock the collective and I can't undo that from the front.

[Colonel David Amlow]

This is effectively like applying a handbrake so that you can't pull power and you can't take off to stop the controls being knocked if you're climbing in and out of the aircraft when you've landed. But unfortunately in this case it meant that Tom couldn't lift into the hover to use his own 30 millimeter cannon.

[Tom (Apache pilot)]

So I'm there and I'm thinking, right, this is probably not the best place in the world to be, but I've got the best team in the world supporting me. So I just got on the radio to Taliban my three o'.

[Dave Regg]

Clock.

[Colonel David Amlow]

So he calls upon the two aircraft in the overhead, Nick and Charlotte, and they're now suppressing the buildings immediately to his front at a range of about 50 to 100 meters. In front of his aircraft, extremely close proximity and allows him time whilst Geordie makes his way around to assist with moving Matthew back to the aircraft. We discovered once the aircraft had returned to Camp Bastion, that actually Charlotte had become the first British Apache pilot to Winchester her aircraft, in that she was the first British pilot to completely empty it of ammunition. Winchester is a term that originated from the Winchester single shot firearm. When a soldier using a Winchester rifle ran out of ammunition, the term Winchester became slang for being out of ammo.

[Sarah]

It's an old phrase from the war, but it just means that you've used up all of the ammunition that you had on board. It was quite scary at the time. I was sort of wishing we had a little bit more because it didn't seem to last very long, even though there's quite a lot of it.

[Tom (Apache pilot)]

Next thing, I see Geordie running towards the aircraft with the two marines. He jumps in and I'm like, geordie, undo the friction. Man alive. This guy is breathing through his ass. He is panting like you have never heard anybody pant. And he literally can't talk. And I'm saying, jordy, collective friction. And all the time I'm applying pressure so that as soon as that comes off, I'm off.

[Colonel David Amlow]

There was still a lot of enemy activity. As they lift, Tom is still engaging targets.

[Tom (Apache pilot)]

Another two Talibs. They come in because I've got the gun immediately slaved to my head. I engage those even though the guys are on the wing. And I was just like, you know, clearly that's not a great thing because it's loud. And then we then scoot across, scoot across the river and land. And then we drop off. We drop off the guys. Yeah.

[Colonel David Amlow]

It wasn't until a couple of weeks later that we got the additional footage from the Predator, which showed me the Tom's back seater leading the two raw Marines from one position, background to where Matthew was and indeed to where Ed was.

[Ed Macy]

I'm Ed Basie. I was a former Apache pilot with UK forces. We were on the ground, we're undercover. Charlotte's banging the weapons down, but it's just a waiting game now. They'll come back with a marine ugly 5 1.

[Tom (Apache pilot)]

We had ED in the front seat, Carl in the back seat. Outside on the right wing was Dave, and Chris was on the left wing on the other side.

[Dave Regg]

I'm Dave Regg. The reassuring thing was that it all looked familiar because I'd been studying all the, all the footage. I knew where I was and I knew where the casualty was. So I was able to run as fast as I could away from that big target.

[Captain Chris Fraser Perry]

My name's Captain Chris Fraser Perry. The blades from the helicopter kick up all this loose and fine sand and dirt. It's called a brown out. When it eventually landed and touched down, you couldn't actually see anything. You're just surrounded by dust and dirt. And if I was a Taliban fighter or enemy fighter, I'd be shooting at that dust cloud. And then I quickly get to like the limit of that dust cloud and I realized that I've run towards the river, so I've sort of gone the wrong direction. And I about turned to turn around and run back the way I came. Saw the helicopter just in the distance through all the dust and dirt. And I knew at this point I needed to do a left, like in my mind. So I'm sort of running in the direction loosely of the nose of the Apache. And then I find the, the outer wall of the fort. So on this point I'm on my own. And Dave, he might have been able to see the wall of the fort as he was landing because that was on his side of the Apache. So he might have had a better idea of where he was before the brownout happened. I'm coming along the perimeter wall of the fort on my own. I've sort of got the, the weapon up in my shoulder because clearly, you know, there's a lot of enemy fighters there just coming along, coming along. And then I can see in the near distance sort of 40, 40 lying there. And it's, it was a series of irrigation ditches. And then the outer ditch is like a deeper trench to the rest of them. And 4D was sort of just lay still in one of those trenches. So I, I went just run straight over to that. And in, in hindsight, it was quite silly of me because knowing what I know now, like booby traps and people just waiting for soldiers to come up to their injured, and then that's a secondary target. But I saw Matthew and just run straight towards him. And it's, it's very clear to me he wasn't unfortunately with us at that point. And it's, it's quickly, very Very obvious that he was instantly killed.

[Dave Regg]

Sadly, he's dead and, and we have to get them back. And that was quite difficult, partly because I didn't do a very good job of it. But I think it's interesting because I think you need a little bit of time to adjust and perhaps, or maybe I'm just making excuses, I don't know.

[Captain Chris Fraser Perry]

In the Marines we get taught this recovery or casualty evacuation method, the fireman's carry. So I tried that. 4D was sort of 6 foot 4, 6 foot 5. He had all his ops kit on, so he had all of the ammo scales, his armor, my armor, my ammo scales. Dave, I think commando trained, he wasn't able to do it either. I think Dave got his webbing straps and I got his legs and his knees with it being across a ditch like the irrigation ditches and fields, obviously that's where all of his kit was snagging and it was quite a. It wasn't easy.

[Dave Regg]

Marine Fraser Perry, who was there helping me and I was very relieved to have him by my side, but we still were making a bit of a hash of it on the way in. I was quite kind of calm and accepting of this situation, but the old fireman's carry didn't work. I couldn't even lift him off the ground. I'd never had a problem with that before. I was physically strong and fit. So yeah, this was a different kettle of fish. There were two other Apaches in the air above us pulling down covering fire and there was a lot of gunfire. The empty shells from their 30 millimetre cannon are sort of landing around our feet and I started to panic a little bit. I'm making no progress and we're in the middle of a very dangerous situation.

[Ed Macy]

Ed Mercy FORMER Apache PILOT I expected to be on the ground for three minutes, land the ground, dash straight across to him. How long is it going to take? 15, 20 seconds to get there, grab a marine, four of them, pull him to the nearest aircraft, hook him on with a carabiner, jump on themselves. Three minutes max. I think it's about four or five minutes. The dust started to clear enough further and further and further and I was getting to see more and I could see the wall and then I could see where the Marines were. They looked exhausted. It's now desperation. I need to get out. So I said, I'm going to jump. Carl said, I'll go. I mean, you can't go because you're in check, you're flying the aircraft. You know, if something goes wrong. You need to be able to get this aircraft off the ground. I can't do all of that from the front seat, so I'll go. So I jumped out the aircraft.

[Tom (Apache pilot)]

The Fort was produced by Kev Kaur. The editor was Sue Roberts. It's a BBC Audio north production for Radio 4. You can hear the next episode now on BBC Sounds.

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