← The Hugh Hewitt Show: Highly Concentrated
The Hugh Hewitt Show: Highly Concentrated
What should President Trump do after the Iran massacre?
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to today's podcast sponsored by Hillsdale College, all things hillsdale@ hillsdale.edu. i encourage you to take advantage of the many free online courses there. And of course, a listen to the Hillsdale dialogues, all of them@q4hillsdale.com or just Google, Apple, itunes and Hillsdale. As promised, Mike Duran of the Hudson Institute, where he is, of course, one of the resident experts on the Islamic Republic of Iran. And I preface this by saying there are a handful of people who have been actually working on the Islamic Republic of Iran for more than a day or a couple of weeks or a news cycle or a few, and one of them is Michael Durant. Michael, welcome back. Good to see you. By way of beginning, can you tell people how long you've been focused on the Islamic Republic?
- [00:44]
B
Oh, well, first of all, thank you for having me. Great to be here, I guess about 20 years. I worked in the White House for George W. Bush from 2005 to 2007. I was in charge of the Middle east at the National Security Council. And I spent more time reading intelligence on Iran than anything else when I was there.
- [01:04]
A
Okay. That's why I called you in. I want to find out, do you want if President Trump calls you today and says, mike, what do you want me to do about Iran? What does Mike Duran say?
- [01:19]
B
I think I wasn't expecting that question. I was expecting you to ask me what do I think Trump is going to do. And what I think he's going to do, I think is also what I'd like to see him do. I think he should take out Ali Khamenei, the supreme leader. I think decapitation is the only way to move forward at this point. I think there's no possibility of negotiating with the regime as long as he's in place. There's no possibility of alleviating the suffering of the people on the ground as long as he's in place. And so moving him aside is moving him out of the picture is probably in everyone's interest.
- [02:03]
A
Now, that is regime decapitation. It's what we did in Venezuela. Assume for the moment we can do that. What do you think would take his place?
- [02:14]
B
Well, I think a leader from within the irgc, an IRGC general would, Revolutionary Guard general would step up and take charge. Or it's also possible that his son or someone else would take the supreme leader's role. But I think that the office itself would be diminished by his departure.
- [02:41]
A
Now, Mike Duran, I've got a target list. I don't know anything Right. I'm a civilian. I didn'tall I know about Iran is what I've read about Iran and over the years and what you learned on the domestic side over at DOJ when I was in the AG's office doing FISA warrants. So I don't know a lot about how it operates other than what Ostebar or you or Karim Sadhgurpur or others write about it. Why have we not blown up Kharg island and they have two other oil terminals that fill up tankers that provide them hard currency for the regime. Otherwise there's just no way for them to get any money. If we blow up their terminals, why haven't we done that?
- [03:22]
B
We haven't done that. And that's actually the logical next question in response to what I said. Because there are real inherent dangers in what I said about decapitation. And we haven't done it because we're afraid of the counterattack from the Iranians. There was a, back in June when the Israelis and the Iranians were fighting, the Israelis didn't hit any of the oil facilities of the Iranians because they were afraid that Iran would respond by hitting Saudi and Emirati oil facilities or by hitting certain facilities in Israel that they as well oil facilities in Israel. So there was a kind of mutual restraint in that war. It wasn't quite all out war between Israel and Iran. And that's something I think that we fear as well. The Iranians still have an incredibly potent missile arsenal that they can use to strike our positions and to strike the Israelis and others. I think the President, one of the reasons why, I think he's going to go for a, why he will think seriously about a decapitation strategy is that he'll get signals from within the Iranian system that there are people at the top levels of the regime who would like to see that happen too. I'm sure there's a lot of frustration with the situation right now. They don't have water in Tehran. They have water shortages, they have electricity shortages. They have a currency that is completely worthless. Now if you're a businessman, you can't take a loan. If you're a worker, you, you can't have a working wage because this economy has completely gone collapsed. And all of that goes back to the American sanctions. So until you get, until you get a negotiation with the Americans, you can't begin to work on any of the practical problems that they have day to day. And you can't get in negotiation with the Americans because the Supreme Leader won't Allow it.
- [05:30]
A
All right, so Mike Duran, I'm back to the what ifs. I thought in June that their ICBM attack hit at least one utility that was of interest and that they tried to hit Dimona, which people in Israel who don't have clearances and people outside of Israel who don't have clearances believe to be where their nuclear weapons program is located in Israel at the Dimona facility. Assume for a moment that Israel has all the defenses that they had and that the Lincoln will provide more and that we've moved additional batteries of Thaad missiles and other things that we have that there is well defended as they can be. Why would taking out Khomeini but not taking out the oil not trigger a ICBM attack of the sort you're worried about?
- [06:18]
B
Well, it will. It will and one should be worried about it. But one would hope that there would be then a de escalation process after Khamenei was taken out, just like there was the last time around. The Israelis have an escalatory ladder that they did not go up in June. They were restrained by President Trump. I think the president expected that because he restrained the Israelis that there would be a kind of, I don't want to use the word gratitude, but at least an awareness on the side of the regime that they were spared thanks to America restraining Israel and that they would be then more inclined to negotiate with him. But they've stiff armed him since then. So I think he's going to conclude that they need another lesson. There is another thing they could do though, Hugh, ifwhich they haven't done, they meaning the Trump administration. I've got an article coming out in the Wall Street Journal tomorrow morning saying that we can seize the money of the Iranians relatively easily. We know where it is and so we don't even have to carry out a kinetic attack against their oil facilities. We can shut down their oil sales by destroying their shadow banking system. And we haven't wanted to do that until now because it is being run through one of our close allies. And I think that we have been, we have been a little bit too delicate with that ally.
- [08:04]
A
You know, Mike Durant, years ago when you were working for W W invited Bill Bennett, Mark Levin and me and three other talkers into the Oval to have a conversation about the war in Iraq. And either Bill or I or someone asked him why aren't we going hard against Iran? And he said lots of things we can do. We can disintermediate the money. Pretty big word, isn't it disintermediate for me? And it was funny. But I assume that's what you're talking about. We can take the money. We know where it is.
- [08:38]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And well, we can shut down the shadow banking system that they use to sell their oil to China because the economic lung of Iran is actually in Dubai. The Dubai banks are where most of Iranian transactions are being processed. We keep, you know, last Thursday the Treasury put out some new sanctions and they hit shell companies that the Iranians use to move this money through the Dubai banking system. But we don't actually touch the banks. And I think, and that's what my article tomorrow argues, we need to actually begin fining and even sanctioning these banks because we know what they're doing. They pretend to not know that this is Iranian money, but it is and they know it.
- [09:22]
A
Now, Mike Durant, when we come back after the break, I want to explore further with you whether you thinkwhy you think he will act when he's going to act and whether or not there's enough strategic defense that has flowed into the country before then. But a quick exit. Can we do all three? Can we take a shot at Khomeini, who I assume is in a hardened location? Can we blow up Carg island and the other two terminals and can we disintermediate their money via the shutdown of the accounts? Can we do all three things at once?
- [09:54]
B
We could do all three things at once, but if we go after the oil facilities, I think that they will hit the oil facilities of the UAE and Saudi Arabia and that'll be really, that'll be quite, quite messy.
- [10:08]
A
Is that why Saudi Arabia, I don't think the UAE has, NBC has not called the president to my knowledge, to urge restraint, but I understand both Israel and Saudi Arabia did last week. I thought that was more in line with getting ducks in a row. Is that what you thought?
- [10:26]
B
No, I think the Saudis and the Turks who are converging in their view of the of the region want stability. They fear all of the instability that will come from, from conflict.
- [10:39]
A
I'm going to come right back with Mike Duran. Follow him on exit Duranimator and go to the Hudson Institute. He is one of the half dozen people actually knows what they're talking about when it comes to the Muller. So stay tuned. I'll be right back with Mike after this. Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Mike Durant is my guest, senior fellow at the Hudson Institute. He's got a piece coming out in The Journal tomorrow morning. I always like to be ahead of the news. Make sure you read it. Mike, why do you think the president didn't act last week before the protesters were killed, although they did not protest because of his assurances of help, because they were blacked out. They can't rely on that. I mean, they weren't listening to my radio show 10 days ago when the president said, you know, we'll hit them harder than they'll ever been hit before. And then he said it to Sean Hannity. He sent it to Tony decouple. I don't think they were in the streets to be mowed down by the Iranians because of Donald Trump. So why do you think he didn't ask last week?
- [11:37]
B
Well, there's what we know and what you and I were talking about. A lot of the major countries in the region ask him not to ask him to hold off. I suppose that also because we don't have enough forces in the room, in the room in the region to handle the counterattack. You know, last June, we ran through 25% of our THAAD of our global thaad missile arsenal or interceptor arsenal. And at current rates of production, it would take five years to replace the 25% that we went through. The Iranians, Russians and Chinese and the North Koreans, they have discovered a chink in our armor. And that is the question of these interceptors. They can shoot a lot of relatively cheap missiles, drones and ballistic missiles at us and our allies. And taking them down is very expensive. And so I would expect that our military said to President Trump that they didn't have the forces in place to handle the counterattack. Their neighbors were uncomfortable. And then there's what we don't know, Hugh, and that's who' swhat have the Iranians been saying, meaning the regime to Trump? I wonder if there isn't some kind of a negotiation going on there. There seems to be from some of the comments that the president has made, but I don't have any information about it.
- [13:06]
A
Mike, on Friday during the big prayers, there's always a major prayer deal in Tehran on Friday. It wasn't Khamenei. It was Khatami, who's another hardliner. And he said we are going to hang people and Donald Trump is awful. And he said bad things about the president. Khomeini over the weekend insulted the president again. This is not the behavior of a regime that is afraid of us, is it?
- [13:34]
B
No, it's not the behavior. And it's also, though, very important for them to look tough before their own public with respect to the United States. I mean, what their the message isn't just to Donald Trump, it's to all the protesters. Don't think that we are cowed by America. Don't think that they can do anything to protect you. So it's a really, that's the heart of the message is really to their own protesters. But they're very adept at talking one way in public and sending a completely different message in private. You'll remember that Trump told the story about when they, when theywhen they hit Al Assad air base after we killed, killed Soleimani, they called him and said, listen, we're going to keep it limited. Let's please have a climb down after this. And so this is, that's typical about the way the Iranians work very tough in public and sending more conciliatory messages in private.
- [14:35]
A
In June, Mike, I think the foundation for the Defense of Democracies put out a target list in Iran and there were 25 different things, including oil facilities, IRGC headquarters. They can't put where the supreme leader is because he's going to pull a Dick Cheney and go to an undisclosed location or like W did go went to an undisclosed location. Do you think we even have the ability to decapitate the regime? I would imagine they're on high alert a lot higher than Nicolas Maduro was.
- [15:03]
B
Yeah, I can't know that. But I'm guessing that the Israelis probably know where he is. They have been, they have shown to have such penetration of the regime. It would really surprise me if they didn't know that. And if the Israelis know it, then we know it. But it's possible, it's possible that we don't.
- [15:27]
A
You know, I've been reading this book, King of Kings, about the Shah, and it was a bestseller last year. And about what the Shah did and didn't do and the Iranian army did, didn't hang with him and he was incapable of the kind of violence, the kind of violence we saw last week. I want to get your assessment of this. When we account for population size, 3,000Americans dead on 9, 11 country of 300 million, country of 10 million Israelis, they lose 1,200 dead in a day. And Tiananmen Square, we don't know how many people the Chinese killed in 1989. I think proportionally the massacre of last week is far worse than any of those three events. Do you agree with me?
- [16:08]
B
Yeah, I do. And we don't know the, we don't know the final numbers, but I mean, it's clearly, it's clearly in the many thousands. I don't know how many. We won't know for some time. But there's not going to be, there's not going to be anyone in Iran who doesn't have a family member who's been affected.
- [16:26]
A
Okay, so that brings me to this. I don't think we can bring about regime change. Matt Continenti talked about regime coercion. I talk about regime evolution. In Venezuela, we're hoping that they move, like Jeane Kirkpatrick said, from dictatorships to democracy. But I don't think we can change anything because it's soit's such a malignancy inside the, the state, within the state is such a malign and everywhere present thing. What is the best way of killing, I thought killing off the oil was the best way to kill off the metastatic irgc. What do you think is.
- [17:02]
B
I think it's what I'm arguing in the Wall Street Journal. I think the cleanest, the easiest move that'll give you the most effect with the least disruption is to shut down their banking system. And we can do that in one fell swoop. We can, we can do it. They will work to try to reconstitute. But, but, but, but we can definitely do that. That, I think, is the far is the smartest first step because this is also the system that is allowing the elite in Iran to live. You know, there are these two economies. There's the elite economy and the economy of everybody else. And the elite is able to live this luxurious lifestyle while immiserating everyone else, thanks to this banking system. So you'll hit the elite hard. And that would position the Americans, I think, in a much better negotiating position, regardless of what they choose to do. If Donald Trump chooses to negotiate, if he chooses to strike whatever he wants to do, he'll have more leverage if he shuts down their banking system.
- [18:06]
A
Now, do you argue tomorrow and generally that going after Khomeini is the first step, or is it a coordinated step along with shutting down the shadow banking, or is there a ladder of escalation in Michael Duran's mind?
- [18:23]
B
No, I only argued about the, I only argued about the banking because nobody was talking about this and they're talking about a lot of other things like seizing tankers and you, for example, attacking the oil, which could have all kinds of secondary effects that we might not want to contemplate. And I was actually surprised at myself when I said take out Khamenei. I really think that that's probably where Trump is thinking because of the success of the Maduro operation and so forth. If I were actually in Donald Trump's shoes, the thing I think I would first do is go for the money. I would want to have a lot of information that I personally right now don't have before I would order a major military operation.
- [19:07]
A
All right, so I'm going to come back with Michael Duran. Don't go anywhere, America, except over to my YouTube channel. You will see this video there before the end of the day. You'll also see the Transcript over@q Hewitt.com Michael Duran, Mike Duran can be followed at Duranimator. I'll ask him that. On the other side, I think it's that I've got it linked. I've got it. I watch it every day, so I know where Mike is putting stuff up. But I think it's duranimator. And don't go anywhere. I'm coming right back with Mike Duran of the Hudson Institute after this. I'm back with Michael Duran. Michael, what is your X account? I left last segment without making sure I got it right. What is it?
- [19:43]
B
Oh, it's Durana May Ted.
- [19:46]
A
Durana May TED okay, so people will find it if they get close enough. Durana May TED okay, Mike, back to the irgc. How I've heard so many different views of how many people have guns within the crazy militia. They're sort of parallel military. It's not the Iranian military, the irgc. So how many in the IRGC and how many in the Basij?
- [20:12]
B
Oh, you know, I don't have the numbers at my fingertips. I think the besiege is about 6,000 armed men, but I don't have those loaded up in my head right now. The IRGC is a relatively lean force. You know, they don't have the IRGC is there to protect the regime, so it controls the missiles. It controls the proxy network abroad. The Artesh, which is the regular military, is been historically neglected by the regime because it was associated with the Shah and with the Americans.
- [20:59]
A
So neglected that during the 12 Day War, none of their MIGs from the Old days even flew because they would have gotten shot down by the IDF. Now, I also remember from the June 12day war, a lot of their missile launchers were destroyed by the Israeli Defense Forces. Do they have enough to mount an attack on the oil facilities of uae, of Bahrain, of Saudi Arabia or Kuwait? Because I still think unless you cut the oil off, you really are not going to no one's going to notice bank account seizures right if we're trying to deter bad people around the world, no one's going to notice that they.
- [21:37]
B
Still, they certainly do. They've put a lot of effort into building more since then. The Israelis did not get all of them. They made a point of showing, remember at the end of the war that they could still get them off. They had also many in the far east of the country, which they had been not entirely beyond the Israeli purview, but outside of where the Israelis were focusing. And they could bringthey could use those to hit their neighbors. They could bring them westward to shoot the Israelis at the Israelis. There's no doubt that they havethat, they still have a potent arsenal and the ability to deliver it.
- [22:15]
A
So is there really any solution here? I don't think we're going to go in, in a ground war for another decade or two until the Iraq effect is over and the Afghanistan effect is over, like the Vietnam syndrome. But is there any way to actually dislodge the regime? I don't think there is, but tell me if I'm wrong.
- [22:34]
B
No, I don't think, I don't think this is an easy process. I think we are going to be managing a very, very volatile and messy Iran for years. It's going to, it's going to, it's going to morph into different forms once the, once the Supreme Leader is out of the picture, we can begin negotiations with the, with the regime. But the IRGC runs the economy of Iran. You know, some very large percentage, maybe 80 percentage of the, 80% of the economy. I'm making that number up, but it's something like that magnitude is, is in the hands of the, of the irgc. So regime change would really mean getting the IRGC out of the economy. And that's going to take a very, very long time.
- [23:21]
A
Well, that's like de Ba'. Athification. And of course, everyone who remembers what happened in Iraq after we de Ba' athified and disbanded the army doesn't want that. In fact, Donald Trump brought it up. Why didn't you take out all the other people not named Maduro? And he said, you remember Iraq after Paul Bremer got there? And I, Is that a well taken lesson? Is that something we should internalize?
- [23:43]
B
I do think it's, I think it's important, I think it's important to be prudent about this whole, this whole situation. I'm not saying that we should, we should be looking for an irgc, a kinder, gentler IRGC to cut a deal with, but we should be careful about big, grand projects of remaking the Middle East. One of the most important issues that isn't talked about in the Iran context is the ethnic question. In Iran, Persians only make up about 47% of the population of Iran, and we have these concentrated ethnic enclaves all around. The Persians are in the middle of the country. It's kind of like a sunflower. They're the disk in the middle of the flower, and the petals are all the minorities around the borders, and the minorities are on both sides of the borders. So you have Azerbaijanis in the north, in the northwest of the country, right next to the country of Azerbaijan. So they have strong bonds of affinity with people across the border. The Kurds in Iran are right across the border from Kurds in Iraq and Kurds in Turkey and so forth. So the ethnic composition of Iran is of great concern to Iran's neighbors, and this is changing significantly. While we speak, I have one more.
- [25:06]
A
Segment with Mike Duran. Don't go anywhere except duranimated. I got it right on X Duranimated and follow him there. And I have one more segment coming up with Mike Duran of the Hudson Institute. Stay tuned. Welcome back, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt with Michael Duran. Michael, what are the consequences if President Trump hasn't done anything to punish Iran for the massacre of at least 15,000 people and the imprisonment of tens of thousands more? If he does nothing in a period of time, let's say two months, because sometimes it takes two months to get ready for something, what will be the consequences for Donald Trump and for the American deterrence that he has rebuilt actually, in the first year of his second term?
- [25:50]
B
Well, that' syou put your finger, I think, on the key word there. You said the key word, which is deterrence. You remember, Donald Trump likes to, he likes to keep all options open, and he likes to put himself in the position of being the decider, and he likes to keep everybody guessing, including the people close to him who are around him. That isn't such a, that isn't such a bad thing. But I think sometimes he gets the calibration wrong. In the lastin his first term, you remember that he contemplated striking Iran, and then he didn't. And then the Iranians came to the conclusion that he was a paper tiger, and they tried to. Then Qassem Soleimani launched this whole campaign to throw us entirely out of Iraq, and that then led to Trump taking down Soleimani. So, and I think that was an awareness on his part that he had gotten the deterrence Wrong. I think he's had enough experience with Iran that he won't make that mistake again. But one of the reasons why I'm saying that I think he's going to act is because he took such a strong position and they have flouted him so directly. And I think he's seen this movie before.
- [27:10]
A
I also agree with that. But having been dared, having been taunted by the regime since he took the strong public position for eight days and they haven't turned their Internet back on, I think just to disintermediate money is bad because no one can see it. It's worse to take a shot at Khomeini and miss, have him show up in a secret boundary. So the one thing we can do that I know we can hit, we can hit IRGC headquarters. They're all over the country and we can hit the oil terminals. So if the problem is our very closest allies next to Israel are little Sparta, uae, Do you think they want us to get to a conclusion of this or do they want we haven't done anything to Iran. I mean, we literally have done nothing to them since midnight. Hammer, do you think they want to leave the status quo with them reconstituting their missile program and nothing else?
- [28:05]
B
No, but they don't. What they also don't want, what neighbors don't want, is a wounded animal. They have to live next to Iran always. So if the United States goes in and takes some action against IRGC bases, IRGC headquarters, and then leaves the regime in place, the regime can then might take out its anger on its neighbors. The other thing the neighbors don't want or worried about is tremendous disruption. The Turks especially are worried about this. The Turks look at our policies in Iraq and they look at the Syrian civil war. They still have millions of Syrian refugees in Turkey, created a lot of disruption on their borders. They all crave stability and none of them just like they go through the calculations like you just did with me, and they don't see a simple solution here. There's no simple set of actions that gets us to a perfectly stable Iran. And there's no set of really strong acts of retribution against the regime that don't create the possibility of tremendous disruption with lots of refugees, creation of new pockets for terrorists to work in and so on. So nobody has the magic bullet here, the answer that gives us everything we want. And so they're all counseling caution.
- [29:37]
A
So nobody has a magic bullet. Nobody can predict the future of what they will do. What do you think the Israelis would Prefer President Trump do.
- [29:46]
B
I think that the Israelis want. The number one thing that they want is an end to the Iranian nuclear program. The other thing that they want is an end to the ballistic missile program. So if there's going to be a major attack on Iran, they would like to see, in addition to the stuff that you were talking about, like hitting IRGC headquarters, they would really like to see the ballistic missile program hit hard, Very, very hard. And actually taking it off, taking it offline. I don't know that we can promise them that, though.
- [30:19]
A
Do you think, do you have faith that Iron Beam works their new laser?
- [30:26]
B
Oh, everything I've seen about it says suggests that it works. It's not a total solution to the problem, but it's an incremental step forward.
- [30:34]
A
Well, if that works and we've got the link in there with the full complement of a strike group and all their defensive abilities and we've flooded fads in there, what's the worst case scenario? If Donald Trump does all of the above, IRGC take a shot at Khamenei and other senior leadership and take out the oil? What's the worst case?
- [30:56]
B
Oh, the worst case is that they would. The worst case is that they would hit the, I think the oil fields in Saudi Arabia. The worst case is that one of their ballistic missiles would get through and create a mass casualty effect in Israel. We've also seen. Now you've seen that Katherine Herridge report last week that the Iranians used a dirty bomb again, may have, I should be a little bit more cautious in my language, may have used a dirty bomb against us, against Al Assad base in response to the Soleimani killing. They could put something nasty on the end of one of these warheads as well.
- [31:41]
A
You know, I have seen that report. I've asked people who were at Al Asad before and after they evacuated, they went back. Were they worried about that? They're not. Don't you think we would have tested for that, Mike? Well.
- [31:58]
B
What I'm hearing is that there's an abnormal, there's an abnormal number of incidents of thyroid cancer among the people who, the people who survived. All I can say is it looked to me like it was a serious report that revived.
- [32:15]
A
She's a good reporter.
- [32:16]
B
Should be looked into. Yeah. So I can't speculate as to why. Look, it's possible that they weren't aware of it and it's only becoming aware now. It's also possible that they were not fully certain about it and they didn't want to say it because it would require, it would require retribution when they, when the policy didn't call for that.
- [32:39]
A
Well, Mike, Mike Durant, we will look for your piece in the Wall Street Journal tomorrow. Everyone is listening and I hope you will come back. Exit question 10 seconds. Do you think Donald Trump will do something, anything that we notice within this week?
- [32:54]
B
No, I think it'll be a week after all.
- [32:57]
A
Right. Mike Duran, I love people with answers. Thank you so much. Good to talk to you again. Duranimated Go follow him on X. Follow me in the next segment of today. Hugh Hewitt show show. Welcome back America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Bethany Mandel is the wonderful brain behind the momwars.substack.com along with a couple of her co creators. Themomwars.substack.com you can follow Bethany on exit. Bethany Shondark But I feel a little bit like everyone I asked to go out in high school. Bethany, you've been doing, you've been busy the last few weeks, you know, washing your hair. I don't know what's going on. We were, you've been vanished. Ghosting me.
- [33:38]
C
It literally did ghost you. I forgot that we changed our time after I got home from Israel and I have six kids and I just forget everything.
- [33:46]
A
If it's not, that's okay. At least I hadn't asked you for a date. That used to happen to me all the time. There were a lot I heard excuses you've never heard of before. Bethany, I want to go very serious. The number out of Iran is over 16,000 murdered in the streets according to the Sunday Times of London. So I'm using 15,000 as a baseline on a proportional basis. That's worse than 9, 11, that's worse than 10, 7. I think it's worse than Tiananmen Square. It's horrific. What should the United States do?
- [34:20]
C
I mean, that's the million dollar question, like what is our moral obligation to the people of Iran? I think that, I mean, we're already doing better than the Obama administration did when similar things happen. You know, I really struggle with it because there is a reticence on everyone's part, including my own, that we don't want to get involved in the Middle east because it's just, it's a never ending, you know, pile of badness you can't ever really seem to get out. But I think that we need to be having some conversations with the opposition quietly and ask them very sincerely, what do you need? How can we help you? And if there's ways that The United States can provide support without, you know, going in and pushing the domino. I think that we should consider it now, Bethany.
- [35:09]
A
My preferred choice. I'm going to talk in hour three with Michael Duran of the Hudson Institute for most of the hour because he's one of the. There are really only a handful of Iran experts out there. Michael Duran, Karim Sadiapur, Mark Dubovitz. There are a few who are not in the government. I'm going to ask him, why is Kharg island not smoldering? There are only three oil terminals on the coast of Iran. They ship all the oil that supports the regime to China and other ghost ship buyers because they're sanctioned. They'll run out of money if we blow up their oil. So I'll get an answer from Mike. But what do you think about that? Why don't we do that?
- [35:43]
C
I mean, I wonder what the plan was. It seems like a week ago America was about to do something militarily, and I wonder if that was it. And I wonder, you know, especially with the Trump administration, you always have to sort of trust that things are going on behind the scenes. And I wonder. I wonder what the plan is. I think that there is one, you know, that seems to me an obvious point of attack. But maybe there'. Smaybe. There's things going on behind the scenes that we just have no way of knowing. And so I'm kind of trusting a little bit that the right things are happening behind the scenes Now.
- [36:21]
A
I do believe that two conversations last week between Prime Minister Netanyahu and President Trump occurred. I have no idea what they said. I do have a great deal of trust in Chairman Kaine, Secretary Rubio, Secretary Hegseth, Director Ratcliffe, Susie Wiles, the Big Five. I think he gets a lot of good options, and I do think we're going to do something that is visible. But I also see online, I don't think it's fair people blaming him for encouraging people to protest. And I don't think you can blame a massacre on someone who is saying, go for it. The only thing they would have seen is he had one tweet before they were cut off from the Internet. They couldn't have heard his interview with me. They couldn't have heard his interview with Sean Hannity. They couldn't have heard his interview with Tony Decopol. They couldn't have seen his tweets the weekend that were more aggressive. Do you think it's fair to blame him for any of the death because it is happening online?
- [37:14]
C
No, absolutely not. I Mean, this is sort of the bigotry of low expectations. You think that the Iranian people are only getting out into the streets because they think Donald Trump told them so. You can't get Republicans out in the street because theybecause Donald Trump tells us so. The Iranian people have been suffering under this regime for close to five decades, and they see an opportunity to topple it. And, you know, asI mean, these accusations are being made by progressives. And as progressives, I used to be one until the glaring, you know, inconsistencies forced me away from that camp. You have to believe in human rights, and for them to be silent, and progressives are silent on what's happening in Iran. For them to be silent is such an abdication of everything they claim to believe.
- [37:58]
A
All right, now I want to move to the second question. The story came out in Josh Shapiro's new book, where Wei think it's where we have the Light. I haven't got it yet. It doesn't come out until January 29, but it was released by his publisher that when he was being asked by Team Harris questions, they asked him, number one, are you an agent of the Mossad? And when he looked at Dana Remus, former White House counsel, and said, that's a deeply offensive question, she shrugged and said, well, we have to ask. And then she asked him, have you been dealing with Israeli intelligence? Which is like doubling down on the trope. What's your reaction to those two questions? Because he's not the first Jew that's been on a national ticket. That was Joe Lieberman. I'm pretty sure Al Gore's team did not ask Joe Lieberman those questions.
- [38:46]
C
Yeah, no, I mean, this really signals the shift that the Democratic Party has seen in the time between Lieberman and now Shapiro. It's terrifying, the fact that they claim they had to ask it. It is absolutely absurd. And, you know, my friend Erin Kayak, who used to work for the Biden administration, ripped this question when it was announced that it was asked because it is, to its core, anti Semitic, that American Jews cannot possibly be independent, patriotic Americans without some underlying quiet loyalty to Israel. These questions are never asked of Catholics. What is. What are your secret ties to Rome? Like that is an absurd question. And it's equally absurd directed towards a Jew about Israel.
- [39:32]
A
It is. It's also part of the ancient trope of dual loyalty and not being trustworthy. And it's kind of a blood libel. And it's kind of one of the things that no one in there with any experience whatever if only because of the political damage it does to Kamala Harris. So who do you think came up with that question? Dana Remus? Eric Holder? Someone with Jews on the brain came up with that question. And it wasn't. I can't believe it was Eric Holder.
- [40:04]
C
I mean, it could have come from anyone on Kamala's team. That's the sad truth. So this excerpt was released to the Atlantic, and another tidbit from it was, they went over his personal finances and found out he's not rich. Like, I guess that stereotype doesn't play out. And they asked, well, do you really want to spend money on, like, new clothes and hair and makeup for your wife? Really? And I'm like, oh, that, that. There. There you go. Like, asking a Jew how cheap he is. That's. That was another question that I. I also really. I didn't see that on the anti Semitism front. Yes.
- [40:38]
A
Oh, I gotta read. You know, they're selling books. The name of the book is Where We Keep the Light Stories from a Life of Service. I know Governor Shapiro. I've had lunch with Governor Shapiro. He's been on this show. I'm not going to vote for him. He's wrong, but he's not rotten. This is nuts. And how deep does the anti Semitism run in, what is the quote, mainstream Democratic Party?
- [41:02]
C
Yep. Pretty deep. Pretty deep. I mean, it was so funny because it was to their detriment. They announced walls in Pennsylvania. They understood the importance of Pennsylvania, and they still passed over Shapiro for a far less appealing vice presidential candidate because they were so afraid of putting a Jew in that spot that they killed. They shot themselves in the foot.
- [41:26]
A
Yeah. I actually believe they were trying to get him to withdraw because they knew he was the best candidate, so they were trying to insult him into withdrawing. And now you've given me more additional fuel for that theory. If they asked him about spending money on a. Those people. Kamala Harris, go home. Never come out. Bethany Mandel, come back. Don't. Don't give us the cold shoulder again. Don't ghost us again. We love you, Bethany mandel. On x themomwars.substack.com Stay tuned, America. I'm Hugh Hewitt. Hi, it's Hugh Hewitt. You've heard me talk a lot about consumer cellular. How you can switch your carrier and save money without sacrifice. That's because consumer cellular uses the same towers as the major carrier. You'll save money every month on your bill without having to sacrifice the quality of coverage. Right now, you get your second month free. Plus folks over 50 get two lines of unlimited talk, text and data for $60 a month. That's in addition to this second month totally free using promo code Hue. And Are you tired of your wireless company telling you you have to Talk to an AI robot, download an app or Verizon? Pay $10 to talk to someone when paying your bill? Yeah, no thanks. Consumer Cellular ranks number one for network coverage and customer satisfaction according to acsi. Whether you're switching online or over the phone, you'll be working with an actual human being based right here in the US so switch and get your second month free plus two unlimited lines of $60. If you're over 50, go to consumercellular.com hu promohue or call 108 or call 1800-411445-41800-411- 4454. That's 1-800-411-4456. And don't forget my code is Hugh.
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Welcome back, America.
- [43:56]
B
I'm Hugh.
- [43:57]
A
Hugh we're laughing here because Vic Maddow Curtis joins us, co host of the Getting Hammered podcast, Weekend Editor at the Free Beacon Arts and Culture Editor at the Free Beacon as the I want you to put on your not your Getting hammered hat, Vic, not your weekend editor hat. I want you to put on your arts and culture hat. The Las Vegas Sphere is going to get a twin across the river from Old Town Alexandria next to the MGM casino. What do you think of that? Arts and Culture Editor?
- [44:30]
D
You know, I was in Vegas a few years ago and it was just before the sphere was built, Hugh, and I missed out on that. And they say it is an amazing concert experience. And the fact that it's this ginormous glowing orb that's on 247 nonstop, that really sums up. It best epitomizes what Las Vegas is all about. It doesn't quite sum up what Prince George's county is all about. I think it's a terrible idea. I mean, there's a place for everything, right? And the sphere is perfect in Las Vegas, Prince George's county, where MGM grand is the casino is there is not quite there. I have. I mean, I enjoy gambling, do not get me wrong. And I try to be responsible, but, you know, there's sort of a time and a place. And when you go to MGM here in Maryland, they have very expensive tables, like table minimums, you know, $50, $100 tables. Okay, I can see that in Vegas, but again, not in Prince George's County. So I find it maddening. They're trying to make this thing happen. It's going to be quite an experience for everybody across the river, though, in.
- [45:42]
A
Old Town, I guess it's going to be an everyday 24 7, 365 experience. And old Town has lots of houses, lots of that border on the. Look across the river at the MGM ground. They already see the Ferris wheel. I just think it's going to be hilarious when the Alexandria City Council realizes that there is a. They can't do anything about it because it's a Maryland land use decision. Nothing. If it's been approved by Maryland and by the local authorities, there's nothing you can do about it, which may bring back property rights. Let me now turn, though, Vic, to the second most shocking local story, which is that the vetting team for Kamala Harris asked Josh Shapiro, did you work for Mossad? And when he was shocked and outraged, the former White House counsel said, well, we got to ask, have you been in contact with Israeli intelligence? What do you make of that? I already exploded my answer on CNN today. On Fox News today.
- [46:45]
D
Well, it totally sort of reveals the thinking behind the Kamala Harris campaign team and how they feel about Israel. Israel, how they feel about what was happening in Gaza. We knew that because Kamala Harris obviously spoke out and wanted to call for an end to the, quote, unquote, violence there. I don't think she quite said the word genocide, but we know how her team obviously feels about this, and they must have been very uncomfortable with the fact that Governor Josh Shapiro of Pennsylvania was a contender to be one of her running mates. And so they ask very tough questions because that's how they think of these things, that there could be a spy, somebody that's working with the Israeli government, as if it was. Who was fellow from the 1980s spy Jonathan Pollard or something like that. You know, I mean, this is so. It's absurd. And then they asked him, you know, they asked Josh Shapiro, did he work with anybody who was undercover. And of course, to his credit, Shapiro said, how the heck am I supposed to know that? If they're undercover, then I wouldn't know if they were a spy. What they want to know is, are you, you know, what is the extent of your connections to them, especially asmeaning the Israelis, especially as they're trying to figure out how do we win Michigan? And obviously they went with Tim Wallace. They thought that was safer because they were, you know, focused on the blue wall. And of course, it didn't make a lick of a difference. They lost Michigan anyway. But good for Josh Shapiro that he avoided that train wreck. And he's probably now, obviously very focused on 2028.
- [48:12]
A
So I have a theory, Vic. I'm going to test it out on you. I think they wanted him to withdraw, that they wanted to offend him. I think the next question is, which part of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion do you believe the most? Yeah. It's like they wanted to drive him off the ticket. Yeah. And he didn't. And then they smeared him by saying he had demands that were inappropriate because they knew he was the best selection, but they weren't gonna pick a Jew because they have this crazy wing of their party. Do you think I have the best explanation?
- [48:45]
D
Yeah, you do. I mean, there was no way he would have gotten through that primary, I think as the first Jew vice presidential running mate.
- [48:54]
A
Oh, no, it would have been on their side.
- [48:56]
D
It would have been Joe Lieberman. That's right. Thank you for reminding me about Joe Lieberman. Of course, that is a different Democratic Party, Hugh. That's what you're not saying.
- [49:03]
A
That's the takeaway. Do you think anybody asked Joe Lieberman, anybody in the Al Gore wing of the party, Anybody asked him if he was a Mossad agent?
- [49:13]
D
Yeah. No, but again, you're talking about a party that was, you know, fairly still connected to the Clinton years, where Clinton talked about, you know, abortion being safe and rare. Legally safe and rare. That is a different world. There's no way any of these people on the Democratic side would survive today, and certainly not Joe Lieberman, whether it be his foreign policy or questions about his allegiances, absurd things like that. And the same thing with Josh Shapiro. And then in the 107 days book that Kamala Harris had supposedly, she claims that Shapiro asked questions about how many rooms do they have in the vice president's mansions? And silly questions, which to, again, Shapiro's correct it on an interview he called out as B.S.
- [49:52]
A
By the way, Bethany Mandel relays to me that they also asked him questions about how cheap he was. Again, another anti Semitic trope. I want to close by asking you, Vic, what do you think President Trump is going to do vis a vis Iran? What do you want him to do?
- [50:07]
D
Well, you know, we really thought, at least some of my sources thought that it was going to happen. An attack, an airstrike was of some nature was going to happen. Last week. It did not. They were still waiting for the Abraham Lincoln and possibly the George George Bush aircraft carriers to come into the region. And that is happening. I believe one or both are on their way already. I think there is going to be to a certain extent an airstrike that will target the irgc, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps. I think there's going to be a substantial cyber attack that will disable the Iranian regime from coordinating and hopefully give a chance to, for these protesters to topple that regime and to find an alternative and something better than they've had for the last 47 years. I don't think it is in all Trump's plan to, you know, let it slide.
- [51:02]
A
The 5 regime. No, he's not.
- [51:04]
D
No, I don't believe that either.
- [51:06]
A
But he is going to help them. Exit question on a scale that ranks proportionality by population, Tiananmen Square 9, 11, 10 and the Iran massacre, which is the most proportionate terrible killing? I think it's Iran as a percentage.
- [51:23]
D
Of the numbers turn out to be true. If it's closer to 20,000, then indeed it's going to be the worst thing ever. And there's silence across the nation's campuses about this.
- [51:32]
A
It is. And that's what I hope the president does. Do everything you said and more. Blow up. Carg island is top of my list. Thank you, Vic Mattis. Follow him on exit. Victorino Mattis here. I'm on the Getting Hammered podcast. Stay tuned.