Identity Hacker: How to Completely Change Your Personality at ANY Age | Olga Khazan : 1268

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey

Episode Title: Identity Hacker: How to Completely Change Your Personality at ANY Age | Olga Khazan
Date: April 10, 2025
Host: Dave Asprey
Guest: Olga Khazan (Journalist at The Atlantic, Author of "Me, But Better")

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the fascinating science of personality change with Olga Khazan, an acclaimed journalist and author who intentionally set out to change her own personality traits, including neuroticism and introversion. Host Dave Asprey and Olga dive into why most of us believe our personalities are fixed, how science shows otherwise, and actionable methods for reshaping who we are—at any age. They examine the roles of genetics, family, trauma, relationships, meditation, pharmacology, and even improv comedy in self-transformation.

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Main Discussion Themes

1. Is Personality Fixed or Changeable?

• Dave Asprey introduces the question: "What if your personality isn't who you are? What if it's just who you practice being?... What if that's just a story?" (00:11)
• Olga Khazan asserts, "Anyone can change their own personality... Your personality is sort of not real. There's nothing about it that is set in stone." (01:20, 28:14)
• On average, personality changes more over a lifetime than happiness, health, or religion.

2. Olga’s Personal Journey of Change

• Olga started as extremely neurotic (9.3 out of 10) and “more neurotic than 94% of the population” (03:29).
• After interventions, she ranks close to the 40th percentile—“not bad for me.” (03:41)
• Her methods were evidence-based, not self-help: “I have been taking personality tests on this science based website... it will tell you where you rank... compared to everyone else on Earth.” (03:52)
• Life events like childbirth can cause personality regression, notably postpartum neuroticism spikes. “All my scores cratered because the postpartum period can be so rough... hormonally, psychologically, it's sleep deprivation.” (05:38)

3. Science-Backed Methods for Changing Personality

Habit Overhaul and Behavioral Activation

• Change is behavioral before emotional: “A lot of the personality change literature is basically behavioral activation... Go do something even if you don't really feel like doing it.” (31:05)
• Example: If you want to be less introverted, start participating in social activities, even if you feel anxious.

Gratitude and Meditation

• Gratitude journaling and loving-kindness meditation played a significant role in reducing neuroticism.
  • “For people like me who can really get down in the dumps, just writing a letter of gratitude... it’s a really great way to break out of that.” (11:16)
  • “A big part of doing that for me was loving kindness meditation... and it doesn't take very long, which is a bonus.” (14:15)

Mindfulness over Medication

• Olga tried pharmacological options (e.g., Lexapro, Xanax) but preferred cognitive and mindfulness interventions due to side effects. (37:04, 41:32)
• “You can numb yourself in a way that's not helpful... Xanax... was making me feel depressed.” (41:32)

Exposure, Empathy, and Rewiring

• Improv class as exposure therapy to reduce social anxiety and foster openness.
• Empathy and effortful reframing reduce anger: “Trying to have a generous interpretation of other people’s actions... that’s really what’s going to keep you from going from 0 to 60 on anger.” (21:22)
• Keeping boundaries is essential to avoid becoming a pushover while increasing agreeableness (34:41).

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Key Insights and Notable Quotes

On the Myth of Fixed Personality

• “Most people feel stuck, not because change is impossible, but because they don’t know where to start. They mistake their habits for identity, their anxiety for truth, and their personality for destiny.” — Dave Asprey (00:43)

• “Our personalities are always changing. You can kind of decide what your personality is going to be like.” — Olga Khazan (28:14)

On Tools and Science of Change

• “Having a personal project or a big goal that's really important to you is a huge motivator for personality change.” — Olga Khazan (25:05)

• “The people who actually did those behaviors did change their personalities. And that's actually been replicated by a couple other research groups...” — Olga Khazan (46:41)

On Anxiety, Neuroticism, and Competing Narratives

• “Neuroticism for me was really defined by negative emotions... it kind of sucked a lot of the joy out of life.” — Olga Khazan (09:23)

• “People think they need anxiety to function... the anxiety is responsible for all of their success, that it helps them remember things... especially anxious people tend to think that.” — Olga Khazan (15:24)

• “Anxiety about anxiety can be the problem. And a lot of times... the fear of a feeling can sometimes be scarier and more disruptive than the anxiety itself.” — Olga Khazan (60:06)

On the Role of Genetics and Family

• “Most personality traits are about 30 to 50% genetic... You might have to skip an extra order of french fries... your body’s kind of naturally trying to be a certain weight. And it's the same with personality.” — Olga Khazan (13:35)

On Relationships and Environment

• Early careers and romantic relationships have outsized impacts on personality: “Young adulthood is when two important things happen: most people get their first job... and often fall in love... These have positive impacts, making us more agreeable, more conscientious, less neurotic.” (61:31)
• Choosing the right partner: “Pick someone who really fits you... not necessarily the hottest, funniest, or the richest.” (62:42)

On Personal Growth and Self-Love

• “I don't see it as a form of self-loathing or even dislike... It’s about self-love and about improving your life.” — Olga Khazan (51:04)

Memorable Moments

• Dave joking: “Did you just attack Scientology?... I'm not going to tell Tom Cruise, but just saying.” (04:16)
• Inventing "Adar" as autism radar (08:24), and a lighthearted discussion about personality traits among writers.

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Noteworthy Timestamps

• 00:09 – Anyone can change their own personality.
• 03:29 – Olga's baseline neuroticism and her quantification.
• 05:38 – The impact of childbirth on personality traits.
• 10:31 – The science and practice of gratitude.
• 14:15 – Meditation as a tool to silence inner criticism.
• 16:15 – Olga’s quick fix for anxiety: deep breathing.
• 21:22 – Transitioning from anger via empathy and reframing.
• 28:14 – The plasticity of personality and ability to change repeatedly.
• 31:05 – Behavioral activation and 'just doing it' as a core method.
• 34:41 – Boundaries as a solution to avoid being a people pleaser.
• 37:04 – Medication’s role in personality; Olga’s experience with SSRIs.
• 41:32 – Downside of medications like Xanax for anxiety.
• 54:14 – Is it possible to strive and accept non-control? The Buddhist answer.
• 61:31 – Young adulthood as the best time for personality change.
• 66:45 – The role of trauma and the difficulty (and methods) of deep change.

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Practical Takeaways

• Behavioral change starts with action, not waiting for feelings to catch up. Exposure and “behavioral activation” are vital.
• You can use gratitude journaling, loving-kindness meditation, and deep breathing for quick positive shifts in mood and perspective.
• Therapy, and even carefully used medication, can support change, but Olga saw the most sustainable effect through cognitive and mindfulness practices.
• Personality traits are heritable but not destiny; repeated actions and self-awareness drive evolution.
• Environment—including relationships, work, and even national/cultural narratives—profoundly shape our self-story and should be consciously chosen or reconsidered where possible.
• It's normal for personality to shift after life changes like having a child, starting a new job, or facing trauma. Accepting and adapting is key.
• Boundaries help maintain agreeableness without becoming a doormat.
• There is no endpoint—self-improvement is ongoing, but contentment can be found along the way.

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Final Reflections

Both host and guest repeatedly return to the idea that personality is neither destiny nor a fixed label. Change requires effort, self-compassion, scientific curiosity, and the willingness to challenge inherited stories. As Dave concludes:
"You can actually change your personality. You don't have to be miserable or anxious or whatever, and you get to pick." (70:18)

For those wanting more practical frameworks—Olga’s book "Me, But Better" is highlighted as a science-backed, candid look at intentional transformation.

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Recommended for anyone curious to break free from self-imposed limits or who wants to understand the real mechanics of personality transformation.

Transcript

[Dave Asprey]

You might be the first guest out of almost 1300 guests who's talked about personality changes after giving birth. What gives you the right to change your own personality?

[Olga Khazan]

Anyone can change their own personality.

[Dave Asprey]

What if your personality isn't who you are? What if it's just who you practice being? Anxious, neurotic, introverted? We are told those traits are hardwired, fixed. But what if that's just a story, One you've been living inside for too long? Olga Kazan is a celebrated journalist at the Atlantic, author of Me But Better, and one of the only people to test track and intentionally change her own personality.

[Olga Khazan]

Because my family was just so different from everyone around us. Up until college, I was told directly or indirectly that I was weird.

[Dave Asprey]

Using science, not self help or wishing. What did she discover? Most people feel stuck not because change is impossible, but because they don't know where to start. They mistake their habits for identity, their anxiety for truth, and their personality for destiny. You can rewrite the way you think, feel and show up in the world, but it starts with one simple question. What if you are not your personality? You are not stuck, you are not broken. You're not doomed to live life through a filter of anxiety or self doubt. Your personality is changeable. Your mind is plastic, and the story you tell yourself can be rewritten.

[Olga Khazan]

Your personality is sort of not real. There's nothing about it that is set in stone. Most people's personality changes more over the course of their lives than their happiness, their church attendance, their health status. So our personalities are always changing.

[Dave Asprey]

You know what's actually better for you? If your personality is telling you a bunch of lies. You weren't born to be someone else's idea of you. You were born to edit yourself. So start rewriting. You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey. Hey, real quick. If you've only been listening on your favorite podcast app, you're missing half the fun. Head on over to my YouTube channel. I'm doing way more over there. Full video podcast episodes, weekly YouTube only videos, and some wild extras you're not going to hear here.

[Sponsor Voice]

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[Dave Asprey]

See you there. Okay. Any final last words before I die?

[Olga Khazan]

No.

[Dave Asprey]

Cool. This is funny. You don't get nervous easily. I always try to poke people to make me nervous beforehand so they'll relax. But you just don't do it. Like, what's up with that?

[Olga Khazan]

I get nervous. Do you get nervous? Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

Did you change your personality?

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah, I changed my personality, so I'm never nervous anymore. See I'm nervous right now.

[Dave Asprey]

I finally brought it out of you.

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dave Asprey]

No. So you're listening to this going, what is going on? You wouldn't know this unless you were in the Upgrade collective group. But when guests come on before we start rolling, I usually, like, tease them a little bit and just so they can get a little bit ramped up and then it causes a relaxation response afterwards so we could be more chilled. Like, oh, whatever. My worst fear was happened. Right. Not necessarily worth fear, but you're just like super chill. Is this your native state or did you build that?

[Olga Khazan]

So this is not my native state. I. I am extremely neurotic.

[Dave Asprey]

Really?

[Olga Khazan]

Naturally.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay.

[Olga Khazan]

And then I have worked extensively to reduce my neuroticism. And so I think what you're picking up on is a slightly reduced level of neuroticism. Okay.

[Dave Asprey]

On a level of 1 to 10, with 10 being the most neurotic person there is. How neurotic were you?

[Olga Khazan]

I was actually over a 9. So I was at a 9.3. I was more neurotic than, I think, 94% of the population. Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

And where are you now?

[Olga Khazan]

So the last I checked, I was low on neuroticism, so I was probably, I think, in the 40, like, 40th percentile, which is not bad for me. Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

How do you measure how neurotic you are?

[Olga Khazan]

So for this project, I have been. I have been taking personality tests on this science based personality testing website called personalityassessor.com, which is created by a SMU psychology professor. So it's. It's not a Scientology thing. It's. It's legit. And it will tell you where you rank on personality compared to everyone else on Earth.

[Dave Asprey]

Did you just attack Scientology?

[Olga Khazan]

Sorry, I'm.

[Dave Asprey]

I mean, I'm not going to tell Tom Cruise, but just saying.

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah, I mean, people. When someone says personality tests, some people are like, I don't know about that, but this one is legit.

[Dave Asprey]

I'm totally teasing you. I'm. I'm a huge fan of personality tests because awareness of your unconscious traits is so important because you will think everyone else is just like you, because that would be normal. Because you only see the world the way you see the world and knowing, oh, I'm totally neurotic. Otherwise you would think you're normal and everyone else must be as neurotic as you. And that's not real, is it?

[Olga Khazan]

No. And the other thing that I fell into was I'm not neurotic. Bad things just always happen to me or My life is just unusually stressful.

[Dave Asprey]

Oh, you had a victim story or.

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah, or, you know, or I'm not too introverted. Other people just suc. And.

[Dave Asprey]

Well, that might be true.

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah, I mean, sometimes that is true. But, you know, but that those kinds of stories are also not totally accurate.

[Dave Asprey]

How often do you test your neuroticism using personality tests?

[Olga Khazan]

So during this project, I was testing it probably every three months or so now that I have a baby and less time I've. I've probably every six months.

[Dave Asprey]

Every six months. What would you do if you suddenly found that you were way more neurotic now than you were six months ago?

[Olga Khazan]

So that happened. So I had Evan, my son. I took another personality test in the immediate postpartum period, and I had made all this progress with changing my personality, with reducing my neuroticism, increasing my extroversion, and all of my scores cratered because of the postpartum period. Can be so rough hormonally, psychologically, it's sleep deprivation. And so that. Yeah, so I. I did have that experience.

[Dave Asprey]

You might be the first guest out of almost 1300 guests who's talked about personality changes after giving BIR. And thank you for doing that because, I mean, many years ago I wrote a big fertility book and it totally happens. There's nutrient changes, there's mitochondrial changes, there's hormone changes. And you weren't tracking heart rate variability like a biohacker. You're saying my personality changed?

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

So what steps did you take to change it back to the way you wanted?

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah, So I think a lot of it was just the gradual kind of leveling out that happens after the first couple months or so with a. With a new baby. So he started sleeping more and I really started to prioritize my sleep and self care and just honestly, like getting enough of it, like really sleeping when he sleeps. I also had to just like, let go of some of the uncertainty that is inherent in having a child. I really. My approach to most things in life had been that I have to control them perfectly and they have to unfold in a very specific way or else I would kind of melt down. And babies don't work like that. Babies kind of do a lot of their own thing a lot of the time. And once I accepted that and that, you know, he hasn't read the baby books, he's gonna act the way he does a lot of the time. I. I kind of just started to.

[Dave Asprey]

Relax a little bit naturally, wait until he starts walking because you're gonna say, I Put padding on everything in the room. And babies have this radar. They'll like, toddle into a room and they'll find the one corner that isn't padded, and they'll just run right up and bang their head on it.

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

And you're like, there's 500 pieces of foam in the room. Like, how did you know?

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

Y. A whole new phase.

[Olga Khazan]

Anything dangerous, anything dirty, he loves it. Yeah. Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

As they. As they should. Like, it's how they learn.

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

Are you neurotypical?

[Olga Khazan]

So I don't know. I always wonder this because I. So we, I guess, like, to. To get really candid, we took him to a developmental pediatrician because he's. He's missing some milestones, basically. And she was like asking us. She was kind of describing some of the symptoms of. Of autism. Yeah. And I kind of realized that I have some of those symptoms. And I mean, it's. It's pretty high functioning, I think, if I do have it. But I definitely have like, some of the. The triggers that autistic people have.

[Dave Asprey]

I have pretty good. I just made a word, Adar.

[Olga Khazan]

Okay.

[Dave Asprey]

It's autism radar. It's kind of, I guess like gaydar or radar or something. But I just made that word up and it makes me happy. So Adar. And that's because I used to have Asperger's syndrome.

[Olga Khazan]

Okay.

[Dave Asprey]

So I grew up with all sorts of neurological symptoms, including like, things have to be a certain way or like, I'm just kind of melt down. And I was able to change my biology and then rewire my brain and my whole nervous system and all. And it's such a wide spectrum that when you describe someone's things, I'm like, ADHD is the beginning of. I'm not that neurotypical. And then the control thing, so I'm like, there might be a little bit. Plus, you're a really good writer because you write for the Atlantic and all. So you're good at structuring words and structuring language. Hey, I'm a good writer too, right? So there's superpowers that come from it. And I was like, the neuroticism, it could just be self judgment and self criticism, or it could just be like, my body and my mind do that. So what does it mean to be neurotic anyway?

[Olga Khazan]

So neuroticism for me was really defined by negative emotions. So just a feeling of worry, worrying about things that had happened, worrying about things that will happen, and then never really enjoying the moment. So you finally reach Some goal that you had. It happens. Yay. It's. It's all, you know, the COVID story goes to press, the whatever, you get the thing, you finish the 5K, and there's just no positive celebration of that moment at all. It's just worrying about the next thing or why wasn't it better. So it really kind of for me, sucked a lot of the joy out of life.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay, now I'm really curious. When you get the COVID story or you have some big thing happen, do you sit in a bath of golden joy for a couple days from that?

[Olga Khazan]

I mean, I should. I think that a big part of reducing my neuroticism was trying to kind of just embrace positive moments. And, and I mean, again, this is all science backed, but I think gratitude can sometimes seem cheesy or people kind of look down on it. But honestly, just having gratitude for things that did go right as opposed to, you know, suddenly hyper focusing on the things that went wrong.

[Dave Asprey]

I love that you're talking about gratitude. It. It's a core part of the book that I am publishing pretty soon and yours just came out and it's called Me but Better, which is such a great title. I love it because like, these personality traits that we think are locked in, they're. They're plastic. We can change them. So thank you for writing it. It's cool. And thank you for including gratitude.

[Olga Khazan]

Sure. Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

See what I did there? I used gratitude. So thank you. I thought that was.

[Olga Khazan]

You're so welcome.

[Dave Asprey]

But for real, like talking about gratitude as a practice and people talk about gratitude journaling and all. Do you gratitude journal?

[Olga Khazan]

So I did a lot for this project. I have to say that I. My gratitude journaling and my meditation have really fallen off with when you have.

[Dave Asprey]

A baby, like, all that goes away.

[Olga Khazan]

But I will say that that was one of the things that I did for my project and it honestly was one of the more quickly kind of like snap you out of a negative thought spiral is even just like writing a letter of gratitude to someone who helped you is such a incredibly powerful thing to. For people like me who can really get down in the dumps quickly. And then it just kind of builds on itself and builds on itself to just express gratitude for someone who did help you or someone who did something positive in your life. It's. It's a really great way to break out of that.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay, that makes, that makes a lot of sense. Do you write like three things you're grateful for in the morning or do you like, sit down and like you know, do a spoken gratitude practice. What's the actual thing look like?

[Olga Khazan]

So when I was doing this most regularly, I. I would write in a journal and I, like, I would physically write and I would sort of just, you know, write. Usually three things I was grateful for. And it was a hard thing for me to wrap my head around because I'm actually Russian and Olga kind of gave that away. Yeah, yeah. In my culture, it is considered like tempting fate to express gratitude. It's considered like you are inviting God to like, punish you by. Or Russians don't believe in God, but like, whatever the universe to punish you because you're being too happy and you're kind of appreciating what you have. So it was a big step for me to have to like, accept that that's not going to happen and that expressing gratitude benefits me and doesn't actually like, invite any negative stuff from the universe.

[Dave Asprey]

So if Russians don't believe in God, they must believe in some kind of magical power to give you negative things. What's that magical power?

[Olga Khazan]

So they. So sorry. And I'm speaking here of like, Soviet Russians, like my parents, not modern day Russians, who I think there is a lot of Orthodox Christianity, but. So Russians believe that there is like, fate, and fate is like always watching. And fate is basically like this really mean God that makes bad things happen in your life. And if you're like, not careful and if you express happiness or positivity, then fate gets like extra mad and is extra likely to make bad things happen.

[Dave Asprey]

Do you think neuroticism is passed down through generations by training?

[Olga Khazan]

So I do. So both my parents are very neurotic and most personality traits are about 30 to 50% genetic. So you have a little bit of a set point. You can think of it like if both your parents are very overweight, that doesn't mean that you will necessarily be overweight, but you might have to, like, skip an extra order of French fries more than the average person. Right. Like your body's kind of like naturally trying to be a certain weight. And it's the same with personality where, like, my mind is naturally kind of wanting to be a little bit neurotic and I have to kind of struggle with that.

[Dave Asprey]

So there's a voice in your head that's kind of an angry critic all the time.

[Olga Khazan]

Yes. Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

Do you think you can ever make that voice just go away?

[Olga Khazan]

I think I have made it go away. I believe you a big way. A big part of doing that for me was actually loving kindness meditation, which I thought was so cheesy. I know right when I first started, I was like, what? But it really is. I would say for for beginners, that is like, a great way to just get started meditating. And it also doesn't take very long, which is a bonus.

[Dave Asprey]

I'm all about meditation. That takes less time. Because who has time to spend 20 years in a cave meditating? Right. Loving kindness or similar gratitude and forgiveness practices are at the core of what I do with CEOs at 40 years of Zen. And there's a structured process for it. And similar to you, I was able to turn off the angry, critical voice in my head. It's just not there anymore, which is astounding to me because it was a major part of what I thought I was. And it's really actually triggering for some people. Even when you say it can go away. Why do people get mad when you tell them that they can just shut up the voice in their head?

[Olga Khazan]

Because people think they need anxiety to function. A lot of people think that without anxiety, they wouldn't achieve anything, that they wouldn't want anything. The anxiety is responsible for all of their success, that it helps them remember things. That anxiety is basically like their fuel. And especially anxious people tend to think.

[Dave Asprey]

That, right, I need my anxiety or I'll die.

[Olga Khazan]

Yes.

[Dave Asprey]

Right.

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

Which is just a funny statement in and of itself. Right. Because it's so not real, but it feels real.

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah. And it's really because, like, you're always anxious. So, like, everything you do is inflected with anxiety. So. And I say you meaning anxious people.

[Dave Asprey]

I feel jealous.

[Olga Khazan]

No. So, yeah, I mean, that's. That's really what's going on there.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay. If someone's really anxious, like right now, and they're going, what is the fastest thing they could do to be less anxious?

[Olga Khazan]

To be less anxious? I would recommend deep breathing. That. That's honestly the. I think if you don't have a mindfulness practice, if you don't have a meditation practice, just sit there and take really deep breaths. You know, try to hold it in for a few counts, exhale for a few counts, and honestly do that for five minutes and see how you feel after that.

[Dave Asprey]

That is fantastic advice. The other thing that might work for some people is you find the source of your anxiety, like so many don't like, and you put them in a wood chipper. Is that a good idea?

[Olga Khazan]

I would not put someone in a wood chipper. I would think about why that person is making you anxious, though.

[Dave Asprey]

I like your answer. Better? Yes. That was just a little bit dark, but it did make you laugh.

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[Dave Asprey]

People get really angry when they're anxious, right? So yeah, anxiety is fear and then you get really angry and then you want to punish another person. What's going on with that and how do you change it?

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah, so I really found that for me. So neuroticism has an element of anger in it and like irascibility. And it can also affect your another trait called agreeableness, which is sort of how you treat other people. So it's almost exactly like what you described. You get angry, you get scared, and then you lash out at someone. Right. Because maybe that'll fix the problem. So this happens a lot, you know, at work. Someone does something wrong at work, you get anxious that it's going to derail the whole project, the whole whatever is happening, and suddenly you're yelling at your coworker. Right. Or you're. You're not behaving in the way that you should in a place. And really like, the thing to do there is to remember that it's a you problem. Like that it is. It is anxiety that's coming up for you and that that other person didn't have the intention of derailing the project, causing you stress, causing you anxiety. It's really remembering kind of what is what is yours and what is theirs. And, you know, it's hard to do in the moment, but that was one of the things that I had to do for this project, too.

[Dave Asprey]

So if someone does something you don't like at the Atlantic, does the voice in your head say they're an asshole or they're having a bad day?

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah. So this is key, right? So this is inflammatory labeling. This is what scientists have found. People who get really angry use a lot of inflammatory labeling. So it's. They jump straight to, they're an asshole. Right? They forgot to send that email because they hate me and they're an asshole. They want to, like, undermine this whole thing. They want us to be late on. On our deadline. And it's. It's really a matter of stopping and thinking, okay, what else do they have going on? How many other projects are they juggling? Have I ever forgotten to send an email on time? And. And really just kind of trying to have a generous interpretation of other people's actions. And I'm not saying that's not difficult, but that's really what's going to keep you from going from 0 to 60 on anger.

[Dave Asprey]

Don't you work with at least one person who's actually an asshole?

[Olga Khazan]

I have definitely worked with actual assholes, but, yeah, I've tried not to express that to them.

[Dave Asprey]

Now I'm just trying to get you in trouble at work.

[Olga Khazan]

Right?

[Dave Asprey]

So this, this whole thing of inflammatory labeling is going on in society, right? People like, oh, like, they vote this way, they vote that way. They're all this stuff. How do you turn off inflammatory labeling quickly?

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah. So the thing that really worked for me and that. So I took an anger management class as part of the book, and it was kind of Funny, because it was. It was very. The blind leading the blind. Because it was all people who struggled with anger. And we were like, I don't know, I just get angry. But one thing we all found is that when we understand or try to understand the motivation for someone's actions, we all get less angry. So one woman in the class had a friend who was always late, always late to meet up. You know, she was tired of waiting around for her. She would get really angry at this friend. Finally, she asked the friend, why are you always late? What's the deal here? The friend was. Had been in a house fire. And she was so emotionally scarred by this house fire that before she left the house, she had to unplug all of her stuff that was like, her toaster, her coffee maker, all of that stuff. She had to go around and check all that because she couldn't bring herself to leave the house with anything plugged in. And so she was always late. And for me, I don't have anyone in my life like that. But what really worked for me was trying to remember that everyone has sort of a hidden motivation for whatever it is they're doing. And it's not often bad. It's. It's usually pretty understandable. So when I would get mad at my husband for not doing the dishes, honestly, it's often because, like, he's just really tired because we're both really tired because we're new parents. And sometimes when you're really tired, it's hard to do the dishes instead of stare at your phone for a couple minutes, like, after the baby goes to bed. And so trying to have empathy for other people can really kind of talk you down from that anger of, like, why might they be voting that way? Doing this, saying that, what's going on in their head? For me, that was the most effective thing.

[Dave Asprey]

I've come to the belief that it's never personal what people do. Like, I've got a few people who I've fired for stealing money. Like, people. I would say, okay, there's problems here. And they're out there right now, like, trying to set up some business things because, like, they have to prove that they were right. And I could easily say, oh, you know, they're. That's about me. It's not. It's about their desire to be the good person even though they did something bad and maybe they'll work. It's just not about me. Right? And I'll manage it however I manage those things. But for me to do that kind of transformation from where I used to be with this angry. Like, I will destroy them. Like, I don't actually sit in that energy anymore. And it's just more like I'm really glad I'm not in that situation right now.

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

Because like, they're living a hellish life. How many times a day do people push your buttons now versus before you change your personality?

[Olga Khazan]

So I would say that my button pushing, I had it pretty well contained to just my home life and specifically frustration with my partner. And it was always, you're not doing enough. You're not doing the dishes on time. You're not. You didn't. You haven't Swiffered for the past two weeks. I did it the past two weeks. There was like a lot of score keeping and kind of like keeping track of who's doing what. And I took everything that he didn't do as a, like, personal affront.

[Dave Asprey]

Oh, wow. That's toxic.

[Olga Khazan]

Yes. Yeah. So just like, he's not doing this because he doesn't love me. He's not doing this because he doesn't care about our house, about our life. Yeah. I would really extrapolate a lot. I feel like the biggest thing that's changed since we had Evan is that I really get into that mode a lot less frequently. I just have a lot more empathy for what he's going through because I am also going through it. And the fact that when you've gotten up at 5:30 in the morning to like feed someone oatmeal and they're throwing the oatmeal back in your face, like you just aren't in the mood to swiffer sometimes, Like. And so I would say that's been the biggest change. And I also have more motivation now to not act out in anger toward my partner because I don't want my kid to see that. Like, I don't want him to see us yelling at each other or to see that, like, anger is like the mode of the world or like the way that people should relate to each other. So. And one thing that I found in doing this book is that having like a personal project or like a big goal that's really important to you is a huge motivator for personality change. So I think for me, honestly, that was a big thing. Is just like now when I start to get angry about Swiffering or whatever else low level thing, I kind of am like, okay, is this worth Evan watching? You know, us blow up at each other? And usually it's not.

[Dave Asprey]

Is your husband a saint?

[Olga Khazan]

He Is not, no, but he seems that way in the book and multiple people have said that.

[Dave Asprey]

Did you convince him to change his personality as well?

[Olga Khazan]

So yeah, I think I did. And great question. So he is not conscientious and he is still a lot less conscientious than me. One thing that I expressed kind of early on in this project was that I needed him to step up his conscientiousness.

[Dave Asprey]

What does that even mean?

[Olga Khazan]

So conscientiousness is organization, timeliness, getting up early, getting places on time, kind of finishing what you start being productive. It actually includes eating healthy and exercising. It's sort of just, just being kind of type A, for lack of a better word.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah, I'll be more anxious.

[Olga Khazan]

Well no, it's actually not related to neuroticism but I don't know, I guess they co occur in a lot of people. But he's really not like that. He's, he's really show up when he feels like kind of really disorganized, doesn't like intrinsically exercise. And I was like, hey, you need to really make some changes. You're, I mean he's in his 40s. I was like, you can't not ever move your body as a 45 year old man. Right, right. Like you can't just sit on the couch like you did when you were 20, you know. So I really was talk to him about, you know, can we try to be healthier? Can we try to be more organized, can we try to be less cluttered? And I really feel like he did kind of make steps to doing that.

[Dave Asprey]

Very cool. And you were less judgmental when he didn't.

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah, and I, I kind of noticed him trying and for me that was like a big sign is that he, he even like makes an effort, you know.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay, very cool. What gives you the right to change your own personality?

[Olga Khazan]

Anyone can change their own personality. Your personality is sort of not real like it, there's nothing about it that is set in stone. Most people's personality changes more over the course of their lives than their happiness, their church attendance, their health status. So our personalities are always changing. You can kind of decide what your personality is going to be like.

[Dave Asprey]

What if you pick the wrong one.

[Olga Khazan]

You can change it again. You really are never stuck being a certain way. If you have sort of decided that you're an introvert and suddenly you're spending way too much time alone, you feel withdrawn and lonely, you can always change that.

[Dave Asprey]

Who's happier? Introverts or extroverts?

[Olga Khazan]

Extroverts. Are happier, according to the studies. Introverts get mad when I say this, but I, I think there is still a way for introverts to get those happiness. That happiness boost of extroversion without necessarily being the life of the party, just surround yourself with other people, even if you're not talking very much.

[Dave Asprey]

It seems like if you wanted to be less introverted, the first step would be learn how to deal with anxiety when you're in a group. Right?

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah. Some of the people that I interviewed for the book did have that problem, so they wanted to be more extroverted, but they had a lot of social anxiety. This one guy that I talked to, Robert in particular, had that. And basically what he did is he just decided to live with the anxiety. So he would feel anxious about going out and he would just tell himself, I am having the feeling that I am too anxious to go out. And then he would just go out anyway and whatever happened would happen. Usually it was fine because most things are fine. And he would socialize, he would have a decent time and then he would go back, back home. And, you know, maybe he was anxious that whole entire time, but he kind of just decided to live alongside the anxiety. And I found that that can be more effective for people than using the anxiety as a signal that you shouldn't do something.

[Dave Asprey]

Anxiety at the end of the day is, is fear. And using fear as a signal to not do something is usually a bad idea.

[Olga Khazan]

Exactly.

[Dave Asprey]

Unless it's actually dangerous. Like, don't go fight the tiger.

[Olga Khazan]

Right, right, right. Yeah. Like we develop this instinct to keep us safe from like a saber tooth tiger, but we don't actually, like, avoid talking to other people.

[Dave Asprey]

One of the techniques that works really well for people who don't want to exercise. Well, go to the gym. Even if you don't feel like it, just go there. You don't have to work out, but once you're there, you'll do it. And it can be the same thing. You go to the party, you don't feel like going to the party, but because you're working on this aspect of your personality, you just go to the party. And you can go there and leave it five minutes later, but you probably won't. Right. And so then you realize, okay, over time you've changed this. So is this like exposure therapy that makes you change your personality or is there something deeper?

[Olga Khazan]

So it can be a type of exposure therapy if you're really afraid of whatever you're doing and then you're kind of gradually building up A tolerance for it. That happened with me in improv class. So I was really afraid of improv and I, it made me nervous every time I went. But honestly, it was exposure therapy. I just did it enough times that it didn't make me nervous anymore. But it's also a concept called behavioral activation, which you probably know about. But so a lot of the personality change literature is kind of basically behavioral activation, and it just means go do something even if you don't really feel like doing it, because you're not going to initially feel like doing it. So the gym is a perfect example, you know, when people are depressed. A lot of the non pharmaceutical interventions for depression is to just, okay, go outside and with your running shoes on. Like, you don't have to actually run, but like, you will find that once you're outside with your running shoes on and it's a, you know, beautiful day, you might, you know, you might just run a quarter mile and then you'll feel a little bit better. So that's really how a lot of the personality change literature works.

[Dave Asprey]

It makes so much sense. I, I was going to do an improv class, but then I was afraid that I would embarrass Joe Rogan by being a better comic than he is, so I couldn't go.

[Olga Khazan]

Hear that. Joe.

[Dave Asprey]

I'm totally kidding, totally kidding. I did sign up for an improv class, but I don't have any anxiety about public speaking, not for many, many years. Just because I was terrified of it. I'm like, I'll become a teacher. So. And I taught for five years and after a while I'm like, I just, I'm okay.

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

But it, it, for me, the first time, I was terrified and it took a long time to just like, relax. But then they canceled their improv class because not enough people signed up. I was like, damn it, one of these days I'm gonna do it.

[Olga Khazan]

Oh, man.

[Dave Asprey]

I don't think Joe has anything to fear, though. You called your book you but better. How do you know what's actually better for you if your personality is telling you a bunch of lies?

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah. So scientifically speaking, what's kind of a better personality is to be more open to experiences, more conscientious, more extroverted, more agreeable, and less neurotic. Right. And so that's like the people who are super happy, healthy, kind of well adjusted, they tend to be. Have those, that collection of traits don't have to be all the way on the, on the far end. You don't have to even have all five of those, you know, kind of going in the same direction. Just having like a couple of those going for you would be good. But another way to tell, you know, what's better for me or what should I be doing is just like, if you don't feel good in some domain of your life. So I started this. I actually noticed that I wanted to change before I took the personality test. And it's because I felt really anxious all the time. I, I wasn't enjoying my life and I felt really socially isolated. Those are related to personality traits. But once you identify the, the issues that you're having, you can pretty quickly kind of see what traits are responsible for those issues.

[Dave Asprey]

Aren't agreeable people easier to take advantage of?

[Olga Khazan]

This is a common thing that comes up with agreeableness. So I, I was trying to become more agreeable, but not many people like select agreeableness as the trait that they want to change in the personality change literature. Because there's a impression that being agreeable means being a people pleaser, and that's really not what it means because of a concept known as boundaries, which I.

[Dave Asprey]

Love the way you say that.

[Olga Khazan]

So we all have to have boundaries, and they help our relationships work. And a big part of being agreeable is having really strong boundaries. You, you cannot be agreeable without good boundaries because people will walk all over you. If someone tells you, you know, hey, you have to spend $10,000 to come to my bachelorette weekend. It's not necessarily agreeable to say yes to that. If you don't have $10,000, you could say, hey, I'm so excited for you to get married. Congratulations again, I don't have $10,000. How else can I celebrate you? You know, whatever your version of that is. But, you know, it's also not agreeable to say yes and then back out at the last minute because you, like, can't take it anymore or can't stand the bride or whatever. So, yeah, having strong boundaries and having inner kind of definitions of what you will and will not do is really the key to keep agreeableness from becoming like, sure, whatever.

[Dave Asprey]

What's the difference between your book you but better and just normal personal development work?

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah. So with me, but better. I really wanted to show how personality change is the root of a lot of self improvement. Because a lot of times we think that the external world needs to change in order for us to feel better or for our lives to go a certain way. And I wanted to really show that you actually have the ability to make these changes day to day without, you know, getting a bunch of money or changing your job or moving or anything like that. It's. It's all within you and it's all. It all can be done with science.

[Dave Asprey]

I've been testing your agreeableness this whole time.

[Olga Khazan]

Okay.

[Dave Asprey]

I've been saying you but better on the book over and over and you never corrected me.

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah, yeah, that's true. I just said me but better myself. But that's accurate.

[Dave Asprey]

I was waiting. I'm like, is she gonna say this?

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah, the book is me, but better.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay, I also was just making that up. I was just. I remembered it as you but better, so I just said it wrong. But when you corrected me subconsciously or maybe intentionally, I was like, oh my God, did I say it backwards?

[Olga Khazan]

I did it, so it's totally fine.

[Dave Asprey]

Me but better. Guys, you should come on up. If you could just take a pill that changed your personality, would you?

[Olga Khazan]

So some pills do change your personality. There's like one small study that found that Lexapro and I think Zoloft reduce neuroticism kind of over and above reducing depression. Not everyone likes SSRIs. Some people don't respond to them very well. Some people don't like the side effects. I honestly didn't really like the side effects of Lexapro in particular. So that's why I kind of went the kind of mindfulness and meditation route and kind of more cognitive interventions. But you, you can take a pill to change your personality.

[Dave Asprey]

I'm always torn because there's so many things that feel innate and they're actually just hardware problems. It's that your body or your brain are doing this. And for me, I had all kinds of chronic fatigue and my brain was all over the place. When I got a brain scan. The doctor said, inside your brain is total chaos. I don't even know how you're standing here in front of me, I'm like, oh, no wonder I'm feeling anxious and just all over the place. So I worked on fixing the brain biologically. And then I learned, oh my God, my body doesn't make cortisol and adrenaline or handle them the way normal biology does. And many people have genetics like this, methylation issues, mthfr comt long term biohackers know those terms. And you're like, oh my gosh, I could take a Russian derived herb, an adaptogen, right? Something like a rhodiola or ashwagandha and things like that. And all of a sudden you were anxious. The Day before and today your stress hormones didn't do that thing. So then you didn't get the angry.

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[Dave Asprey]

So then it was easier to change your personality. I have a hard time knowing, am I dealing with a hardware thing that I should deal with nutritionally, have a good breakfast, get a good night's sleep, or whether it's a thought process or a personality trait. How do you know?

[Olga Khazan]

So there's definitely a brain body connection. Right? So there's pretty good evidence now that what you eat does affect your mental health. Pretty, I mean not directly like ah, like you know, but can, depending what's in your.

[Dave Asprey]

What's in there.

[Olga Khazan]

Right, right. Like, you know, over, over, you know, especially like a few months, you know, eating a more Mediterranean diet has been shown to improve mental health. Eating fewer processed foods can improve mental health. So I think it's both. I mean there's, there's definitely a brain gut connection, you know, a microbiome that influences how we feel and then how we feel. We often kind of use those, those feelings as stories to tell us kind of what's really going on. So if you're constantly feeling tired and sluggish, you might start to tell yourself like, oh, my life is just really hard or I'm not handling things well or, you know, my life is bad, or. So I think it's actually both. Like there's hardware that you can change through things like nutrition and exercise, but there's also software I guess is the extension of the analogy, which is your cognition, your behavior and sort of the things that you're telling yourself.

[Dave Asprey]

I was with a highly neurotic person many years ago, and every time she would eat food that was high in MSG, about 10 minutes later, I was the devil, right? And it was like this rage and it was already a high level of anxiety or neuroticism that you're talking about. But it seemed like the dysregulation of, in this case glutamate in the brain just made everyone else in the world worse than they were before that specific meal. And do you find that in your own personality experiments that there are certain things that make you highly anxious?

[Olga Khazan]

That's interesting. So I found this is not a food thing but is related. So for a while I thought, so Xanax exists and is like a drug that many people take to reduce anxiety. What I found is that it actually was not helping because it was making me feel depressed. It was giving me a story of the world that was very dark and unhappy. I could be. I actually was, you know, in a. In a beautiful setting, overlooking a beach, you know, beautiful weather, not a care in the world. This is before I had a kid. And if I had taken Xanax, I would actually see it really negatively. I would notice, like, all the flaws in the room or, like, why isn't it sunnier out? Or why is this or that, you know, So I definitely. There are definitely things that I have taken that I don't take anymore because I. I felt like they weren't actually. They were like, papering over one problem and creating another.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay, that makes so much sense. So you can numb yourself in a way that's not helpful.

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah. And Xanax, one researcher described it to me as like alcohol in pill form. And you notice this happening with alcohol too. Like, people drink in order to feel better temporarily. Over the long term, it absolutely brings your mood down.

[Dave Asprey]

You ever try Modafinil?

[Olga Khazan]

I have tried Modafinil.

[Dave Asprey]

Did it help with anxiety? Did it change your personality?

[Olga Khazan]

Modafinil didn't do anything for me.

[Dave Asprey]

Oh, you're one of those. Next. It's like my favorite drug. I've been on it for 25 years. I made it, like, part of the biohacking movement and was on Nightline years ago for it. And 80% of people, it works for them. And for 20% of people, they take it and they're like, I didn't. It didn't do anything.

[Olga Khazan]

It didn't. It didn't do much. Yeah, I'm one of those, like, non responders. But Modafinil can. Can do. Do help people stay more alert. Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

It also strangely helps with anxiety for some people just because if you're having, like, dips in energy, that can make you feel anxious as well. So, yeah, I do my 100 milligrams pretty much every morning, and my life is much better for it.

[Olga Khazan]

That's great.

[Dave Asprey]

Does sleep change your personality?

[Olga Khazan]

For me, sleep absolutely changes my personality. I think for most people it does. So getting a good night's sleep is one of the best things you can do to reduce anxiety and depression. It can also make you feel more extroverted because you feel more rested. You don't want to necessarily retreat back and kind of spend a ton of time alone because you feel like you have the energy to give to other people. So I would absolutely look at your sleep if you feel like your life is not going the way you want.

[Dave Asprey]

I couldn't agree more. Does nicotine have any effect on anxiety or on your personality? Just being more focused.

[Olga Khazan]

Nicotine, as far as I know. I don't know about personality, but I think it does improve focus.

[Dave Asprey]

Oh, for sure.

[Olga Khazan]

Not advocating smoking cigarettes.

[Dave Asprey]

Not me either.

[Olga Khazan]

But nicotine does have like cognitive.

[Dave Asprey]

Cognitive alertness properties and neuroprotective things for Alzheimer's and all. Have you ever tried it?

[Olga Khazan]

I have. I. I used to vape, but I stopped because I. I know.

[Dave Asprey]

Well, you're a mom, right?

[Olga Khazan]

I'm. I stopped because I got pregnant. Yeah. Okay.

[Dave Asprey]

Well, if you start again, may I humbly suggest, don't start vaping because it's bad for your organs. You can just do the oral thing and it works pretty well.

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah. Some people I know chew like quitting smoking gum.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah.

[Olga Khazan]

In order to like get Taylor.

[Dave Asprey]

It works, but it's got bad sweetener in it usually.

[Olga Khazan]

Okay.

[Dave Asprey]

So what I'm using is called knickknack. And it's a little lozenge that just goes in there. It's kind of like that, but there's nothing bad. And the little pouches have microplastics and all. So this is like a mint that just goes away. But then you're like, everything works.

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

And a lot of people do smoke because they're anxious and like, it calms them down.

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah, that's what people say.

[Dave Asprey]

It depends on their brain. And if I just reduce my anxiety, does that change my personality or are you talking about going deeper?

[Olga Khazan]

So that is a type of personality change. So going to therapy changes people's personality. That's actually one of the biggest interventions is. Is long term therapy really does reduce people's neuroticism by, I think, a whole standard deviation.

[Dave Asprey]

That's a big deal.

[Olga Khazan]

And so that people tend to see a lot of personality change from therapy. But there's other things you can do beyond reducing anxiety that changes personality. You can become more open to things. You can become more extroverted, you can become more empathetic in the way you treat people, or more agreeable. You can become more organized or productive, conscientious. So it's personality kind of has its tentacles in all parts of our lives.

[Dave Asprey]

That whole list. I have done conscious, intentional work on every one of those in my own life. And it makes me really happy to hear you saying, no, these are doable because a lot of people think personality is just locked and that you just are what you are. How did you first know that you could change your personality?

[Olga Khazan]

There's been a lot of interesting research coming out, actually out of SMU in Dallas from Nathan Hudson, he has sort of given out surveys to people and said, do you want to change your personality? And most people want to change at least one of their personality traits according to global surveys that we have. So people would say yes, I want to be more productive or I'd like to be more extroverted, what have you. He then gives them tasks to do and these come through like an iPhone app that he I think is like pretty janky and like research budget. But you know, it would be like go say hi to someone or have coffee with someone once a week or you know, go through your belongings and throw away everything you don't need or set up a Google calendar and set up reminders for every 30 minutes or whatever. And he would track them over the course of I think three or four months. And the people who actually did those behaviors did change their personalities. And that's actually been replicated by a couple other research groups that are not affiliated with smu. So there's a woman in Switzerland, Miriam Steiger, who did this, this. And what was cool about hers is that she actually asked other people who knew her study participants like hey, do you think this person changed? And they were like yeah, I actually have noticed that they changed.

[Dave Asprey]

Wow.

[Olga Khazan]

But similarly, it was through doing kind of the behaviors of the personality that you'd like to have. So that kind of the fact that it's been replicated a few times and has been shown in multiple studies now is what kind of gave me the confidence that it was real.

[Dave Asprey]

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[Dave Asprey]

See what you see after writing me. But better. What is the one part of your personality that's been the hardest to change?

[Olga Khazan]

Neuroticism. Okay, yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

Isn't the desire to change your personality a neurotic desire?

[Olga Khazan]

Oh, that's interesting. I think there maybe is some neuroticism there, but only because neuroticism feels so bad. So when I started out, I was really like, is my life really going to be a cycle of non stop up worry and dissatisfaction? And kind of the way I put it in my book is, is, you know, stealing dissatisfaction from the jaws of happiness. I really didn't want to live that way like I wanted to have those kind of moments of, of joy and feeling free and feeling grateful that I felt like I never really experienced. So definitely my neuroticism was like motivating this, but it was because I didn't want it anymore.

[Dave Asprey]

Some people get this mindset that it's about like self hatred or self judgment to want to improve yourself. And you can have the mindset of like, I'm not good enough, I have to do this. Or you could also say, I want to feel a certain way, I want to have a certain level of performance. Like this is what I want for the same reason that I wanted, you know, pizza versus applesauce. Like it was just an innate desire.

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah. I really don't see it as a, a form of self loathing or even like dislike. Right. I think it's. So let's say you're someone who cannot cook and you are eating ramen noodles every night and you feel terrible and then you decide to learn to cook. Like that doesn't mean that you don't like yourself or you don't like the skills that you already have or even that you don't like ramen. It just means that you, there's something out there that you feel like you could nourish your, yourself and your life and your body with other things that you know that you could learn how to do. And that's really how I see the tools of personality change is that these traits allow you to unlock goals or skills or abilities or gifts that are out there. And with these traits, you can actually achieve those things. So that's, that's sort of how I see it. It's. It's about self love and about improving your life.

[Dave Asprey]

I used to be a computer hacker and I thought a lot about the history of hacking. And the earliest hackers were probably in the prohibition area. They would take a car and they would turn it into what is now NASCAR so they could get away from the cops with their moonshine. Right. And then we had people making lowriders, and it turns out those hydraulics were so much better than anything that they got hired in World War II to design tanks. Because I just wanted to make it better than before. And then we had the people like me who would hack the phone system and then hack computers, and then we would hack our phones. And at a certain point, like, what's left? Well, we hack our biology. And a lot of biohacking is like, let's make the body and then the mind work. And where you're going with me. But better is about well, let's hack our personality itself, which is sort of like this long, beautiful, like multiple decades of continuous improvement of ourselves and everything around us. Where does it end?

[Olga Khazan]

Ooh, where does it end? I would say that you can reach a point where you're happy with your life and your personality. I'm not saying that, you know, if you take one improv class, you have to become a cast member on SNL or take everything, you know, to the extreme. Some people, you know, like, I would still probably consider myself an introvert, but I just feel like I need a lot more extroversion than I thought I did. I need a lot more social interaction than I was getting. So I think there's like, a point where we all reach where we're like, okay, I'm happy with where. Where this is what. With what I'm doing. I don't actually need to keep. Keep up the. The self improvement. But, you know, for a lot of people, there's going to be daily habits and activities that you have to do in order to maintain that state.

[Dave Asprey]

I found that for me, learning how to be comfortable and happy regardless of the circumstances around me is the ultimate goal. Right. And maybe full of energy as well. Right. So that's about resilience. And that means you can go to a party or a social event, or you can be entirely alone and just be. I'm okay with that, but that's a really high bar. It's really hard to do. Is that a beneficial practice for me, or am I just a masochist?

[Olga Khazan]

No, I mean, that's sort of what low neuroticism is really about, is feeling happy kind of regardless of what's happening in the world. I learned a lot about Buddhism for this book, and that's really one of the kind of core concepts, is that you can only kind of control what's going on in. In your mind. You can only control your own reaction. You can't control what everyone else is doing, what. What happens in the world. So, in fact, I think that, yeah, that's. That's a sign of. Of low neuroticism. Low neuroticism and of a. Of a healthy personality is. Is being happy with whatever's going on.

[Dave Asprey]

If you're happy with whatever's going on, won't you just be lazy and not do anything?

[Olga Khazan]

No. I mean, and that was one of the things that I really struggled with when I took my intensive meditation class, because they really were kind of hitting on this point of not striving. So this is like a key Buddhist element that, you know, striving is, like, frowned upon. Right. And so we're all just supposed to, like, meditate all day on a, you know, cliffside somewhere and, like, not have any desires. But of course we all have desires. We all have things that we want. Most journalists in particular have. Have desires and are striving, you know, to get the story or to get, you know, on a one or whatever else. So what I. The kind of compromise that I came up with is. And this was something that Dan Harris, who's also kind of a big time meditator, has done.

[Dave Asprey]

Dan's an old friend. Yeah.

[Olga Khazan]

Is really kind of striving, but not being so attached to the fruits of your or the exact outcome of your striving. So you can push as hard as you can, you strive really hard for. For outcomes or results that you want, but ultimately you have to accept that the exact nature of that result is out of your hands, that there's uncertainty in life and you can't perfectly control exactly what happens. That's. That's kind of where I settled on it.

[Dave Asprey]

You do sound very Buddhist. It's hard to hold neuroticism and anxiety and that Buddhist perspective on reality. And I've also spent time in Buddhist monasteries learning from monks and masters and all. And it's a bit ungrounding because I believe that struggle and striving was what made things happen. But when I hooked my brain up to electrodes, if I wanted to achieve the states that I prefer to be in, those states are impossible in the presence of striving. So it took me a couple weeks of sitting there, looking at my brainwaves, going, oh, you know, like, just striving and struggling. And it was only when I kind of just gave up, I'm like, oh, look, there's the state. And as soon as I'm like, yay. It would go away again.

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah, I know. Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

Is it like that in personality change as well? As soon as you change your personality, you notice it. It unchanges.

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah, I. So I think that's the case for. For anxiety, specifically. So this is John Cabot Zinn. Like, in his book, he writes, like, one of the core tenets of mbsr, which is the meditation class that I did, is to not strive to be less anxious. And I was like, what do you mean? Like, I really want to be less anxious, though. And so, you know, that was. That was like. I was like, what is he talking about? But I also noticed that that, like, I had a muse, like, meditation headset. That I wore. And every time I would kind of just like, let go and be in the moment and be mindful, you know, my wavelengths were all the way they were supposed to be. And the second I was like, yes, score, like, I'm really doing it now, you know, they would go all over the place again. So I really do think that there's something to the neuroticism element in particular, where kind of having a lot of compassion for yourself and a lot of patience for it unfolding on a slow timescale is just part of it. With the other traits, that's less certain. But I do. I do think that's true of neuroticism.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay. Okay. I've noticed a lot of people who likely score high on neuroticism. They get a sleep tracker, like an ultra human or I have both on right now, and they get so worried and neurotic about their morning sleep score that it ruins their day if they didn't get good sleep. How do you overcome that?

[Olga Khazan]

So insomnia was one of my key struggles and one a huge element of my neuroticism. And really what sleep doctors tell you to do in that case is just to accept that you had a bad night of sleep. Don't do anything differently. Don't take a nap. Don't castigate yourself. Don't, like, go to bed that night going, I'm gonna really sleep tonight.

[Dave Asprey]

Right.

[Olga Khazan]

Just have a normal day and accept it. We all have bad sleep every now and again. It's not gonna ruin your life to have one bad night. Honestly, it's. It's. You know, and it's kind of something that they advocate for with when it comes to, like, panic attacks, too. People get really freaked out when they're having a panic attack. It can be really scary. But a big part of handling a panic attack is just to, like, let it wash over you. Just let it happen. Let the panic come, and don't freak out that you're having the panic attack. So. And I feel like it's the exact same with insomnia and sleep. Just let it happen, and then the next night will be better.

[Dave Asprey]

Plus, you're a new mom, and all new moms learn you're not going to die if you don't sleep very well, because you're not going to sleep very well. So you might at first feel that way. And any new doctor, like, oh, you did your residency, or if you're in the military, especially special forces or Navy seals, let's look what you can do with three days of no sleep. And then at a certain point, that sleep conditioning, you're like, oh, I faced it and it wasn't as bad as I thought it was. Is neuroticism the same way or does it just get worse?

[Olga Khazan]

A lot of facing anxiety in particular is just realizing that it's anxiety is not as bad as we fear. It doesn't hurt as bad as we fear it will. It doesn't mess up our lives the way that we worry that it will.

[Dave Asprey]

So anxiety about anxiety is the problem?

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah, anxiety about anxiety can be the problem. And a lot of times people, this happens with drinking again. So something that I found from Annie Grace, who's a sobriety coach. She was. I was sort of asking her, okay, what do you do if you're in a social situation and you really want to drink because you're really anxious? And she's like, just, just don't drink and feel anxious. Like, just let the anxiety happen. Because, like, what's really going to happen if you're socially anxious? Like, you will just feel anxious. And that. That fear of a feeling can sometimes be scarier and more disruptive than the anxiety itself.

[Dave Asprey]

If you could go back in time to when you were 18 years old, knowing what you know now from writing me, but better, what would your advice be?

[Olga Khazan]

Oh, wow. I would change everything. I would absolutely change everything. I would say focus on making friends in college, not on finding a boyfriend. I would say focus on writing and journalism and perfecting your craft rather than on finding a job that will be highly paid or trying to find some industry that doesn't really. Isn't really a good fit for you. I would say focus on being organized. I would. I would just get organized first and foremost and have that be the platform on which you build your life. Yeah, I would completely change everything about my younger years.

[Dave Asprey]

Is it easier to change your personality when you're a teenager or when you're a young adult or when you're old?

[Olga Khazan]

So our personality changes all throughout those three time periods. Your personality changes your entire life, whether you try to change it or not. So with that being said, it is easiest to change it when you're a young adult. And the reason is that young adulthood is when two important things happen. One is most people get their first job, and your first job tends to really change you, especially if you're really committed to that job. You start to become a lot more conscientious and often a lot more extroverted, too. The other thing that happens is that people fall in love when they're young adults often and those early romantic relationships have a, have a positive impact on our personality. They make us a lot more agreeable and extroverted and actually less neurotic. We, we become less anxious when we enter those, those, those early romantic relationships. If it's a positive relationship.

[Dave Asprey]

I was gonna say if you pick a good relationship.

[Olga Khazan]

Right, right, right. Yeah, exactly.

[Dave Asprey]

So maybe the most important thing people could do to improve their personality when they're young adults is pick a really good partner. How do you go about doing that?

[Olga Khazan]

Oh, that's a great question. So I would pick someone who feels like I just did a story actually about comedians and comedians who have been married for a long time. And what I found.

[Dave Asprey]

Both of them.

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah, there's a lot. But it was, it was people like Jim G. Again. Right. So he's been married for forever. And I was like, what's, what's your secret? And the secret for each of them was in picking someone. It was, it was in who they picked. It was not in anything they do in their marriage day to day. And it was in picking someone who was a really good fit for them specifically. So not a good fit for necessarily every person out there. So not someone who's necessarily the, the hottest or you know, the funniest even, or the smartest or the richest. Pick someone who really fits you. So if you have kind of a specific thing that you want. Bert Kreischer, who I also interviewed for the piece, said that he really wanted someone who had a lot of empathy for him and that really made him feel really understood if that's an important quality. And like kudos to him for figuring that out when he was like 20 something as a like comedian. But if that's something that's really important to you, look for someone who will fulfill that, that need for you rather than someone who's everyone else is chasing.

[Dave Asprey]

One of the things that I advise younger people to do in relationships is to ask your community or your family or people who know you well whether the person's a good fit. Because your own personality characteristics are likely to color your view. So you might not pick a good one. So if you're overly people pleasing, they're going to feel like a great partner even if they're not. Any other advice?

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah, I would say that's a great. Yeah. How, how they treat their mom, you know, how they. Yeah. Whether your friends like them. Do you feel kind of comfortable and at ease and peaceful when you're around them or do you feel like an kind of A squirrely energy that is a little bit more like, I've got to be. You know, I've got to be putting on a show for them. That's kind of. That can be kind of a negative sign.

[Dave Asprey]

Makes sense. I actually lost a family member, as in, I kicked her out of my family because she chose a partner who isolated her from all of her friends. And this went to this very dark place that even involved what you could call criminal behavior. And, like, okay, like, I'm gonna have to cut ties here, and. Which is really problematic. But, man, choosing a bad partner can. Can do so much when you're a young adult. Right, Right. So I like your explanation. How do they treat their mom? That's probably all you need to know, right?

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dave Asprey]

If someone's experienced a lot of trauma, they're anxious, they're highly triggered, they see themselves as a victim, and, like, everything's a dark place. How much work is it to change your personality?

[Olga Khazan]

It is a lot of work to change your personality. You. You have to do things every day that accord with the personality that you'd like to have. I actually talked to someone from my book, Me, but Better, who did go through a lot of trauma and was in a very dark place, very anxious and depressed. Substance abuse, you know, couldn't see her way out, could barely go outside without having intrusive thoughts. And she actually had to go through a big, psychedelic study. She actually did MDMA as part of a huge study on victims of trauma. And she did recover, but it's not like she took the MDMA and then, like, hooray, like, I'm better now. She had to do a lot of therapy leading up to that. She had to really get to the roots of what was so traumatic for her. So one of the things that had happened to her is that her mother had actually killed two other people and herself. And then this woman, Lori, had discovered that scene, that murder scene, and called the police to, like, come, you know, whatever, figure it out. And that, you know, obviously very, very scarring. And as part of this process with the mdma, she had to really focus on forgiving her mother deep forgiveness and forgiving herself, honestly, for not seeing some of the signs of what was going on with her mother and that, you know, it sounds very easy, like, just take the MDMA and then you'll feel better. But it was. It was. Honestly, it sounded like a really, really long and challenging process for her. Her.

[Dave Asprey]

I've sat with people doing forgiveness under psychedelics.

[Olga Khazan]

It's.

[Dave Asprey]

It's one of the things that we do at, at 40 years of end. And man, it is not easy. But sometimes psychedelics help. Have psychedelics been a part of your journey of changing your personality?

[Olga Khazan]

So not really. I, I have tr, like tried a low dose of psychedelics in the past and they didn't do much for me specifically. But that is, psychedelics are one of the things that seem to increase a trait called openness in particular. And for whatever reason, this openness kind of helps you come up with new ways of, of thinking. So it helps kind of reprogram your brain to see new possibilities and new stories that weren't available to you before. One of the researchers that I talked to described it as taking a helicopter ride over this beautiful mountain and seeing the like, like gorgeous summit. And then suddenly you want to take that difficult hike up the mountain because you've already seen what's waiting at the end. So that's really, I mean, that's kind of how psychedelics increase openness and why that openness? People often find it so healing.

[Dave Asprey]

What a great analogy. I always say they kick open the door so you know where the door is, but then you have to step through it without the drug.

[Olga Khazan]

Exactly.

[Dave Asprey]

I like your analogy way better. The other thing that psychedelics do is they will increase neuroplasticity dramatically. And what I've seen is when people are trying to, to change their personality or just trying to overcome something, having a brain that's more plastic so that your new behavior patterns lock in faster, it's really important. And you can do that with lifestyle or with psychedelics or with a few compounds that, that are out there like green coffee extract or lion's mane or some of the nootropics that I work with with. And it's really incredible what happens when you're like, oh, I just did it five times and I learned versus I did it 50 times. And I learned because my brain was like old and crusty kind of. Were there any practices like that that you found just made it easier to change more quickly?

[Olga Khazan]

So this is interesting, but maybe not what you were expecting, but improv actually.

[Dave Asprey]

Oh, totally. Because the new pathways makes so much sense.

[Olga Khazan]

I was very committed to this one particular story that it is dumb to be silly or creative. Oh yeah. And it is dumb to, quote, unquote, waste time on something that is not work related or that is not catching up over drinks. So I had kind of two modes. I was working or I was catching up over drinks with friends. And I was kind of like, I'd Run out of interesting ways to do either of those things.

[Dave Asprey]

You were so Russian, weren't you?

[Olga Khazan]

Yes, I was very. Yeah, I'm very.

[Dave Asprey]

Right. Or Eastern European. All of Eastern Europe.

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah. Like that. Yes. And so what improv really allows you to do is like, step into this magical space where you don't really have to be interesting. You don't have to create a story of your life. You're not creating a story of your life. You're. You're not creating anyone's life story. You come up with, like, kind of whatever comes to your head on the spot. And you're actually also not trying to be funny or entertaining. It's actually more entertaining if you're not funny. Like, and I realized that there's. There's so few opportunities to do that in day to day life that for me, I felt like I had some of my best ideas and my greatest moments of energy and kind of like, oh, I just came up with a solution to that problem right after an improv class.

[Dave Asprey]

Wow. Okay. That's not what I expected.

[Olga Khazan]

And I love.

[Dave Asprey]

I love that answer. All right.

[Olga Khazan]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

Olga, your book Me, but Better is really fascinating because you're out there saying something that a lot of people just don't think is real. You can actually change your personality. You don't have to be miserable or anxious or whatever and that you get to pick. And I really appreciate that you've gone to the work of living it similar to what I do in my books, where it's like, okay, let's try it out. And so you do a great job of telling the journey because, well, you're a journalist, you're good at writing. So thank you for your book and for sharing that. I think it's going to help lot of people.

[Olga Khazan]

Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate this.

[Podcast Outro Announcer]

See you next time on the Human Upgrade Podcast.

[Podcast Disclaimer Narrator]

A Human Upgrade, formerly Bulletproof Radio, was created and is hosted by Dave Asprey. The information contained in this podcast is provided for informational purposes only and is not intended for the purposes of diagnosing, treating, curing, or preventing any disease. Before using any products referenced on the podcast, consult with your health care care provider carefully read all labels and heed all directions and cautions that accompany the products. Information found or received through the podcast should not be used in place of a consultation or advice from a healthcare provider. If you suspect you have a medical problem or should you have any healthcare questions, please promptly call or see your healthcare provider. This podcast, including Dave Asprey and the producers disclaim responsibility for any possible adverse effects from the use of information contained herein. Opinions of guests are their own and this podcast does not endorse or accept accept responsibility for statements made by guests. This podcast does not make any representations or warranties about guest qualifications or credibility. This podcast may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products or services. Individuals on this podcast may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to herein. This podcast is owned by Bulletproof Media.