← The Human Upgrade: Biohacking for Longevity & Performance
The Human Upgrade: Biohacking for Longevity & Performance
Should You STILL Be Eating Algae in 2025? (Longevity Update) : 1334
01:01:47
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- [00:00]
A
I'm entering my 70th year and I am so in the rabbit hole. I take no medications, I have no illnesses, I don't even take any other supplements. This is my own hair. There's no extensions. This is my own teeth. I take nothing. Except I think the is the best hack, period. There's 100,000 studies proving the science and it's effortless and has all the nutrients that you are missing for that optimal energy, life, wellness, brain health, everything. It's proven to kill cancer cells and you no longer have it after the age of 40. That's when metabolic, brain fog, weight gain, heart attacks, cancer, all of this escalates after 40. And then by the time you're 40, you have even less of it. And by 50, you have none of it. Without it, you're basically dead.
- [00:44]
B
Katherine Arnsten is a globally recognized biohacker and nutrition strategist with decades of experience in longevity and cellular health. She has helped countless individuals optimize energy, vitality and overall well being. Her pioneering work in anti aging and mitochondrial health is transforming how we approach human performance and rewriting the rules of what the body can do.
- [01:05]
A
I taught myself most of what I know just by going deep into PubMed because I am determined to find out how we can make aging easier for people. It shouldn't be so difficult, it shouldn't be so expensive, it shouldn't be so complicated, it shouldn't be so reliant on the medical profession. And I know I'll probably sound like a crazy woman, but I'm convinced is the answer.
- [01:25]
C
You're listening to the human upgrade with Dave Asprey. Get this, if you're over 30, you've already lost about 50% of your STEM cells. That means that half your body's repair crew is gone. Even with a dialed in biohacking routine, if you're not addressing your stem cell decline, you're missing a key piece of what keeps you young and powerful. Your body knows how to repair itself. But as you age, it stops sending in the workers, your stem cells, the things that get the job done. And that's where stem regen comes in. It's a supplement that signals your body to Release up to 10 million of your own stem cells into your bloodstream directly. It also improves circulation. So those cells go to where you need them most, like your heart, your muscles, your skin, everywhere. And you'll notice faster recovery, more energy and real changes that last for a long time. So you want to keep your body young or just more powerful? Go to stemregen co Dave25 use code Dave25. It'll give you 25% off your whole order.
- [02:30]
B
Poor recovery speeds up aging. When you don't recover from stress properly, your cells get weaker and accumulate damage. HeartMath changes that. The inner balance coherence plus trains your body to recover at the source, your nervous system. The setup is pretty simple. You connect a sensor to your ear that pairs to the HeartMath app, which guides you through an HRV exercise. In five minutes a day, your body shifts out of stress mode and into coherence, the state where recovery, focus and peak performance happen. Most devices only track recovery. HeartMath trains it. It works by targeting heart rate variability or hrv, your body's most reliable marker of resilience. Higher HRV means faster recovery, deeper sleep, and stronger performance. Decades of Science prove that HeartMath works. Over 400 studies show measurable results in as little as six weeks. That means less anxiety, better sleep, more energy, and sharper focus. That's why elite athletes, hospitals, and the US Military all use the interbalance Coherence plus. This is one of the things I think everyone should be doing. Don't just track recovery. Train it to get 15% off. Go to heartmath.com Dave.
- [03:50]
C
This is a special episode of the Human Upgrade because we're celebrating a birthday. Our guest today, second time on the show, is entering her 70th year, and this is the big day. So Katherine Arnstadt, recent PhD graduate. Congratulations.
- [04:08]
A
Thank you so much, Dave.
- [04:09]
C
She's coming on the show to talk about mitochondrial biology. And you could say, oh my gosh, that sounds a little bit boring. Except it's not, because we're going to be hacking mitochondria and there's a lot of really cool pathways and support factors. So if you want to live for a very long time and you take care of your mitochondria, you do that in your 20s and it's really easy and cheap and you do it in your 40s or 50s. And since pretty much everyone over age 40ish, 50ish has mitochondrial dysfunction, it's just a hallmark of aging, but it's optional. And if you're, I don't know, like in your 60s or early 70s and you want to look amazing and have a brain that gets a PhD and just totally super smart, listen to Katherine and what she's going to teach us on the episode today because she's a walking testament to what happens when you take care of your mitochondria. Katherine, welcome back.
- [05:07]
A
Dave. So great to be here. I can't believe I'm here a second time. And we are going to go beyond what we did last year, just like in your show, which is now beyond.
- [05:16]
C
Beyond biohacking conferences, beyond biohacking.
- [05:18]
A
We're going to go beyond what we talk, and we're going to go beyond what anyone ever dreamed algae could do for you. Because when you understand how your mitochondria work and what they need, they want to look after you, but. And when they do, you are a rock star. So it's not about living, just living long, it's living well. But you need to know what you need to do to make that happen. And the mitochondria is where it's at.
- [05:44]
C
Now, I asked you back on the show because your last interview just went viral, because you're dropping all this knowledge. And I think you see mitochondria in a different way. And, you know, I'm, sometimes when every time I see you, I'm like, why is she not green like swamp Thing? Because you are so into algae. Because not just any algae, but the specific forms. There's two kinds that you focus on, and you've done such deep research that I want to make this a masterclass on how mitochondria work, how they break, and then what are the things you can do, including the components that are in spirulina and chlorella and why they work and where they work. So people really understand I must take care of my mitochondria.
- [06:28]
A
Absolutely.
- [06:29]
C
And it's about performing better now. And it's about looking better over time and not getting all the degenerative diseases and things like that.
- [06:37]
A
Right. Because aging is natural. Declining is not. We've assumed that it is. And I'm an example of the fact that it's not. I take no medications. I have no ill illnesses. I don't even take any other supplements. I, you know, I, I, I do the things that are, that really Mother Nature has provided for us. Things like algae and sleep and sunlight and movement and water. And so it's also, you must use.
- [07:03]
C
Some kind of serum. Like your face is just, I just put it.
- [07:06]
A
I've used the same cream for the last 40 years.
- [07:08]
C
Wow.
- [07:09]
A
I will say a shout out to a fellow colleague. I started using the Alatira Gold serum on my skin a couple years ago, but it was looking great before.
- [07:19]
C
You're doing amazingly well.
- [07:20]
A
It's. Well, it's because I'm nourished from the inside. Your skin is nourished by your blood and your Just like all the other parts of your body, your skin is an organ. It's a very large. It's the largest and very visible organ. But all of your organs need to be nourished, including your skin. And I attribute my skin health mostly to the fact that I take spirulina and chlorella every day.
- [07:41]
C
You take some collagen too, I'm guessing.
- [07:42]
A
Nope.
- [07:43]
C
Nope. Wow. So you're all about getting your protein aminos, minerals straight from algae.
- [07:48]
A
I take nothing except spirulina and chlorella.
- [07:51]
C
No fish oil. No nothing.
- [07:52]
A
No fish. Oh, I can't. Yeah, fish oil. I was repeating. No. No fish oil ever, ever, ever. The only thing I will take is when I'm traveling, I'll take a little extra magnesium and I'll take a little bit of vitamin C. Cause I don't eat a lot of fruit, but nothing else.
- [08:05]
C
No vitamin D. Nothing. What the heck? And so what do you eat?
- [08:09]
A
Nothing. Well, I just eat whole foods. Selective whole foods. Nothing processed. No sugar. So there are those things because sugar is very inflammatory, Very, very ag. Someone with wrinkles in their face, I could tell they probably are eating a lot of sugar. So I am conscious of my diet, but I've always been that way. But the algae took me over the finish line for sure.
- [08:32]
C
What stands out is I've run a longevity nonprofit, or I don't run one now, but I started doing that in my late 20s. I spent a lot of time looking at how people age and pretty good at estimating. And you're in like the top 5%, where, God, you're entering 70th year and your face looks fantastic and you're healthy.
- [08:56]
A
I don't talks either. Just in case you're wondering. This is my own hair. There's no extensions. This is my own teeth. Somebody asked me if I. So. So I am.
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C
Okay. Inspiration.
- [09:04]
A
I am an example of what. How you can age well, gracefully, elegantly, without a lot of. I mean, I'm a big fan of biohacks and all the. The red light. A big fan of red light. You know, cold plunge. So those are all add.
- [09:18]
C
So you're a biohacker, but you don't take supplements. Except for the energy beds you make.
- [09:23]
A
I think the algae is the best hack, period. And then you can stack it with other stuff. But I feel it's foundational and I'm an example of that because everything else is just optional for me.
- [09:33]
C
So we've done all the physical stuff, which there's all kinds of makeup and things that you can use to hide stuff. But what stands out the most is just how fast your brain is. I mean, you just got a PhD. That's very rare, even just over 50, for people to do it. And when we start going deep on mitochondria, people are just going to understand, like, wow, you've got it going on mentally, which is super cool.
- [09:55]
A
Well, I spent 15 years on PubMed. Somebody asked me, oh, did I have coaches, did I go to school? I taught myself most of what I know myself just by going deep into PubMed. Because I am determined to find out how we can make aging easier for people. And it shouldn't be so difficult. It shouldn't be so expensive, it shouldn't be so complicated, shouldn't be so reliant on the medical profession. And, you know, cancer and heart disease are just still escalating. And I am determined to find an answer that is natural and effortless. And I know I'll probably sound like a crazy woman, but I'm convinced algae is the answer. And it was a gift to us from mother Nature. I can't take credit for algae. I can't take credit for growing it carefully to preserve the nutrients. But this is mother nature at her finest.
- [10:41]
C
So we'll talk some more. You do some weird and very important stuff with the algae, the way you make it. Because a lot of it out there doesn't work. And there's a reason it doesn't work. We covered that in last episode. We'll get there. But first, let's talk about what's happening in mitochondria. And I'm very interested in hydrogen peroxide. Because when we talk about things like gray hair and aging, hydrogen peroxide forms in cells. Walk me through what hydrogen peroxide does in the body, why it's there, and what we do about it.
- [11:13]
A
Okay, so I'll go a little higher level to start off with. For anyone who's not quite familiar with mitochondria. They are what generate cellular energy, use ATP. And the best analogy I've come up with is, you know, in a building, you can't do any work without any lights. If you have a power outage or your light bulbs go out, you. You're kind of stuck. So you call maintenance, and they come and turn the electricity back on. And the mitochondria are not just the light bulbs. They are also the electricity. So they are twofold more important than what's in your building. Now, the maintenance people that will turn your mitochondria back on are actually an antioxidant called superoxide dismutase. And norma, normally your maintenance people are there from the moment you're born because your body makes this stuff called superoxidigenmatase, also known as sod, just like it makes melatonin, just like it makes hormones. It's a natural product until about the age of 30. And then like a lot of things, hormones, melatonin, it starts to drop. And then by the time you're 40, you have even less of it. And by 50, you have none of it. And what superoxide dismutase does is it takes the free radicals that are produced as a byproduct of this ATP, because at. And we're going to go through how the ATP is actually produced because it's in something called the electron transport chain, but when you have to have ATP, because without ATP, you're basically dead.
- [12:37]
C
So you have about six seconds of supply in the body.
- [12:39]
A
Yeah, yeah. And you can't. So your body can't store ATP. So whenever it's made, it's used at the moment. So you need ATP. But a byproduct are these things called free radicals. And the free radical that is produced in the mitochondria is called superoxide. And it's very damaging. Now, normally antioxidants would, would neutralize a free radical, but most antioxidants cannot get into the mitochondria because the mitochondria have a second inner membrane that doesn't have these things called porin, that, that porins that are required for antioxidants to get in. There are some antioxidants that can get in, including glutathione, chlorophyll, and also this one called superoxide dismutase, because dismutase means to dismantle. So you're. You've got these free radicals called dismiss, called superoxide that are being thrown off as a byproduct of the cell production, ATP.
- [13:33]
C
Let me play this back. So as you're making heat or electricity, your mitochondria doing their daily thing, they're throwing off SO or superoxide. And if things are working right and you're young, then the body also makes sod, which turns off the. So. So as long as that's in balance, you're young and powerful and you feel good, right? And then your body makes less and less of turns it off, which is why we get gray hair, we get all these diseases of aging. It's not the only cause of aging, to be clear, but it's a major thing and it's that drop off over time.
- [14:09]
A
Right.
- [14:10]
C
Okay.
- [14:10]
A
And you're right about it. I'm not sure if turning it off is the words I would use, but they're good. They help people understand. What it does is it neutralizes it and it converts it. And we'll get into this in greater detail in a minute. It converts it to oxygen and water, which are harmless, so it's actually beneficial.
- [14:26]
C
You want self hydration. Okay, good.
- [14:28]
A
Yeah. Because. Because it's a closed loop. I mean, mother nature creating us and creating algae and the nutrients in algae. It's a closed loop. And as you start to understand how this all works, you go, oh my God, that's unbelievable. Because we are a fine piece of equipment and every concept, every piece that needs to be co factored in is in there in your body if you give it what it needs. So, yes. So we have this stuff called superoxide. And the way I describe it is it acts like a big golf umbrella. You've seen those big golf umbrellas. Whether you're golfing or shopping, you get stuck in a rainst. You pop that baby up, you're protected. You haven't stopped the rain, but you stopped getting wet. Superoxide dismutase is similar. It doesn't stop the rain of free radicals. They're a natural byproduct of ATP.
- [15:16]
C
If you stop them, you're dead.
- [15:17]
A
Exactly. But it converts them into harmless water and oxygen. So it's like providing your mitochondria with a big gulf umbrella so they're not damaged.
- [15:27]
C
Yay.
- [15:28]
A
So everything's easy peasy, working fine until you're 30 and then boom.
- [15:33]
C
Why is 30? What happens at 30?
- [15:35]
A
So here's the cool. And I was curious about this too. Why does everything start Falling apart at 30? Well, we have been on earth for 2 million years. 2 billion.
- [15:46]
C
Oh, you mean humans or life?
- [15:48]
A
Humans have been on life on Earth for 2 million years. And evolutionarily, up until a couple hundred years ago, we died at 30. Our bodies are programmed to die at 30.
- [16:01]
C
You mean mother Nature wants us to die to get out of the way for the next generation?
- [16:04]
A
Pretty much.
- [16:05]
C
Well, she's mean.
- [16:05]
A
Yeah. Yeah, well, I know. Well, she didn't know we were going to live longer. She didn't know there was biohacking. She didn't know there was electricity and all these things. So in the last couple hundred years, we have been living longer, way past 30. But our body is preparing us after 30 for death. That's why for women, our estrogen drops. This is why melatonin starts dropping. It doesn't think that they're. We're going to need any sleep if you're dead. So our bodies are evolutionary, programmed to die at 30, and Mother Nature always looks for the best value. And why would it want our bodies to be making all this stuff? It doesn't think we're going to be alive. So at 30, so we have no choice. You will not be able to change this. Our evolutionary. We are programmed to die at 30.
- [16:48]
C
I'm going to change it. I'm going to change my.
- [16:50]
A
Well, I was going to say you and all these other things that will improve our lifespan and health span, like red light and algae, for one of them, will help us get through. So the good news is we can defy our biology. We absolutely can. But like I tell people, you need to know the recipe. I mean, I don't cook very much, so when I go in the kitchen, I need a recipe, and I need to know what's gonna go into the recipe. So I go in and get my ingredients, and if I follow the recipe, I can do pretty well. My sisters are great cooks in the kitchen. They don't even need a recipe. I need a recipe. Everybody in our world now needs a recipe. They need to know how their body works so they know what to go and find to counteract these evolutionary programs that are built in. Because you can defy them. You can create for me a great souffle if I wanted to, if I have the recipe. You can live well and long if you know what to do. And that's why I love what you do, Dave, because you really help people understand what's available to them. Because once you get these things in your system and you're good, you're good. And that's why I want people to understand we are going beyond what you thought algae was, because it has the nutrients that are missing once you get to 30. And we're going to talk people through that.
- [18:10]
C
Okay, so is it nutrient depletion that happens around 30, we run out of something, or is it some other process?
- [18:20]
A
Well, it's not necessarily. We are experiencing nutrient depletion in our lifestyle now. But that's not what's going on. It's just like you have a timer. When you turn a timer on to do anything, whether you're in the sauna or you're cooking, when the timer is done, you know, in the sauna, it turns the heat off.
- [18:39]
C
So is it like telomeres or. We just don't know what the timer is?
- [18:42]
A
Well, it's programmed into our cell biology. Just like skin turnover slows down as you get older. Certain animals, the leaves turn different colors while it's photosynthesis, but it's.
- [18:56]
C
Is it different in men and women?
- [18:58]
A
No. All humans have this programming, but women get hit extra hard because at the same time, they're losing the superoxide dismutase, which everybody loses. They're also losing estrogen. And estrogen acts as an antioxidant in the mitochondria. And because your brain has the most mitochondria per cell. 2 million. And I can give you the scientific references for that. People know that depression and Alzheimer's and dementia are more prevalent in women. And that's because women are getting hit harder. Their mitochondria are being more. Are damaged more frequently than men because of the loss of estrogen. And so because you don't have that protection of the estrogen anymore. So I know we're getting. We're moving all over the place here, but it's good. Yeah.
- [19:47]
C
This is like, why does it happen and what can we do about it? Up. Alcohol hits your body hard, even though it's fun, and there's something you can do about it. It's called Zbiotics Pre Alcohol probiotic. It's the world's first genetically engineered probiotic, and that's a very good thing. PhD scientists invented it to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, your gut converts alcohol into a toxic byproduct. Then it builds up, and it's that buildup, not just dehydration, that you can blame for rough days after drinking zebiotics. Pre alcohol produces an enzyme that breaks that toxic byproduct apart so that it doesn't torture your cells. All you've got to do is remember to make pre alcohol your first drink of the night. And yes, drink responsibly. Remember, alcohol's not good for you, but you're probably gonna drink it. You might as well not take the hits, and then you'll feel better tomorrow. I don't drink alcohol very often, but when I do, I have zebiotics pre alcohol before. In fact, I put it out at parties if someone brings tequila. That way I know I'm going to wake up the next morning feeling good, and so will my guests. This is even more important in the summer when people tend to drink more and you sweat more. So use Zbiotics Pre alcohol and you will feel the difference. Go to zbiotics.com Dave that's Zedbiotics. If you're not from the US and you can learn more and they'll give you 15% off your first order with code Dave Zebiotics will give you 100% money back guarantee. So if you are unsatisfied for any reason, they'll give you your money back. It's funny because guys have less estrogen, but we also die eight years earlier. Earlier. And some of that is probably from excess iron because guys don't have occasion to bleed every month, but some of that is estrogen. And I had a recent episode where we talked about microdosing estrogen in men as we age. Because it's cardioprotective. Yes, just very low doses. Not enough to feminize you or grow boobs or whatever, but just enough to keep the cardiovascular system working in it turns out it has a pro libido effect, just like testosterone has a pro libido effect in women or in men. But getting those things working. And what's behind the estrogen decline is that right between 30, really 35 is where it gets really bad in women, especially the DHEA and pregnenolone, which are precursors to estrogen, those drop off and those are anti stress compounds. So women are still making normal adrenaline and cortisol, which are necessary, but now the balancing is gone, is gone.
- [22:13]
A
Correct.
- [22:14]
C
And that directly causes mitochondrial stress which creates more of these free radicals, more of this. So.
- [22:23]
A
So you start to see how everything is so connected and it's so finely tuned and it can go off the tuning just like a piano can go off tuning in humidity, but you can tune it back. So the nutrients that are missing after the age of 30, especially superoxide dismutase, which I believe is the most critical. Just like you can tune a piano, you can tune it back, but you need to find it. And you can't get medicinal amounts of superoxidismy taste from any other food. There's a teeny bit in sprouts, but they get damaged in digestion. This is why I like spirulina and chlorella so much, because their superoxidismutaste is in both of them. More in spirulina, but certainly is a very high amount in chlorella. And I like spirulina the best because it's a bacteria, so there's no cellulous wall. But the bottom line is you need this stuff called superoxide dismutase because it's the gulf umbrella that's protecting your mitochondria from all that free radical damage. And you no longer have it after the age of 40. And there's no surprise to me, that's exactly when chronic disease really accelerates. That's when metabolic health issues, brain fog, weight gain, heart attacks, cancer, all of this escalates after 40. And my theory is, is because this is exactly when the mitochondria tank because they're getting damaged by so many free radicals they used to have. The protection from that is gone because their body isn't making it anymore. And there are 25,000 scientific papers documenting how superoxidezmutase reduces inflammation, protects you from any kind of dementia, protects you from heart disease, but nobody seems to know that you can find it in spirulina chlorella if it's not exposed to high heat.
- [24:09]
C
And that if is a big if. And so I, I have two little stories about this that are super relevant. I was, and I'm ashamed to say this, I was a devout vegan at one time in my life. I think anything to lose that hundred pounds. And during that time, like, oh, I've heard spirulina is good for me. So I would take a lot of spirulina and it didn't do anything. So I was a full on spirulina skeptic. And it was our last interview where you walk through, well, of course that spirulina didn't work. It's because it was exposed to heat, which turn off all the enzymes, which is why it's important. So precision in manufacturing, you've got that with energy bits. But the other thing that I don't think I've ever talked about is I became aware of SOD and superoxide dismutase or sorry, and superoxide. And superoxide dismutase. Oh, geez. When I was studying chronic fatigue and what was going on with me, and now everyone with long Covid has the same thing. So I thought I must have too many free radicals. So I found some laboratory source of straight sod and I took a bunch of it. And I have never felt sicker in my life.
- [25:14]
A
Yeah.
- [25:14]
C
Can you predict what happened?
- [25:16]
A
Well, if it was lab made, so it's not natural. So it's turning off things that shouldn't be turning on.
- [25:21]
C
I don't know that I can say because it's natural or not natural if it's the same compound. But what happened was I took a larger dose of it all at once and it's like, like if you have a battery, it has a positive and a negative terminal.
- [25:35]
A
Right.
- [25:36]
C
So I took so much of it, that it was like I disconnected half of the battery. Right. Because I was turning off all of the necessary free radicals at a rate far in excess of what would happen if I took it from a natural source.
- [25:48]
A
Right.
- [25:49]
C
So I just went through three days of like the worst brain fog and fatigue. I could just barely walk. So we know you've got to have some oxidative stress or you're dead.
- [25:59]
A
Yes.
- [25:59]
C
In fact, life is based on ox redox, which is oxidative stress. And in that redox side, which sod is a part of. So my experiments with energy bits, which is your spirulina brand that doesn't have all the heat processing that's just endemic in the industry, you feel a difference, but it's not the. I stopped oxidative processes in my cells to stop life. What you're doing is you're supporting it so you have an even amount, like on a battery, plus and minus.
- [26:27]
A
Right. It's what it does is it optimizes the balance. It optimizes everything that should be going on in the mitochondri that used to go on when the sod was being produced naturally by your body. It's like tuning that piano again. It starts to work again. It's like having your lights turned back on in your brain and your body now. Everything can work. There's no overload. I think we talked a little bit last time about methylene blue, how it's a lab produced substance that overrides the cell functioning and, and what's found. The superoxidation and other nutrients found in algae don't override anything. They just clear the way, in fact, so that everything can start working better. It's like that recipe again. Everything is in proper balance. So it's optimized and that's what you want. That's why when you take this, we call the spirulina energy bits because it gives you energy, but it's not a stimulant. With stimulants get a rush and a crash. And I say it's like putting paper on a fire. With spirulina it's like putting a log on the fire because the energy is at this cellular level. It's just very gentle energy and it's functioning, just clears everything, all the junk in your trunk, as I say, so everything can work better.
- [27:46]
C
Well, I, I think you're living proof that, that there's something to this, something happening. Yeah, exactly. Like your brain, you have all this stuff just sitting in your head and that's pretty Unusual.
- [27:57]
A
So you were asking me again about the. In the cell, the mitochondria, how we have all this hydrogen peroxide. So we'll go back to the electron transport chain where all this activity is occurring, where you get the production of the ATP and the byproduct of the free radicals. And just to help people to understand what this electron transport chain is, it's molecules. There's four molecules that are embedded in the inner membrane of the mitochondria. And the way that the energy is actually created is very similar to what you would see in a relay race. Everyone's seen a relay race where you have the runner and they pass a baton to the next runner, who passes it to the next runner, and they try to cross the finish line first. Well, in the electron transport chain, instead of runners, you have these protein molecules, and instead of passing a baton, they pass an electron. Okay, okay. So. And instead of crossing the finish line, the goal is to get to this final stage, which is called cytochrome C oxidase, where there's. And you have to. We'll talk about this because you need oxygen. And that's when ATP is produced. So as long as the electrons are passed, like in a race, from one mole, from one of the proteins, you get ATP. But here's what happens when you start to have too many free radicals, which occur from a variety of reasons. Stress, EMFs, toxins, the electron transport chain, where the molecules are supposed to be close to one another, they cause damage. And so when the mitochondria get damaged, it expands. And when it expands those runners, the molecule, get further and further and further apart from one another. So two things happen. Just like in a relay race. If you can't get up to the next runner, you can't pass the baton. In the electron transport chain, when the molecules are farther apart from one another, they can't pass the electron. So they leak out. They can't make the pass. It's like Tom Brady couldn't make the pass. So two things happen now. You have less energy because the electron couldn't make the disk, couldn't make the pass. And those electrons don't just disappear, they turn into free radicals, which what damages the mitochondria even more, which what causes the expansion even more, which what reduces the ATP even more. Then eventually the mitochondria explodes. It's called necrosis. And all that, all those free radicals, all of the stuff that was in there, spreads to the next mitochondria, spreads to the next cell. This is why you have Accelerate aging. This is how you get chronic disease. And it's all because the mitochondria, the electron transport chain, it starts to expand. They can't close the loop to get the electron across. Doesn't disappear. Free radicals. Free radicals. Free radicals.
- [30:39]
C
You've got a couple really important points in there. When mitochondria die or fragment mitochondrial fragments and extracellular ATP, which happens as a result of that. Well, the other mitochondria, they're all a community.
- [30:53]
A
Oh, I know. Hey, what's going over there, bro? Hey, don't, don't spread your stuff over here. But it does.
- [30:57]
C
Yeah. And it would be like if we're driving down the expressway and like a human leg hits your windshield, you're like, ah, like, what is going on from a mitochondrial perspective? Like a piece of another one of us just hit me in the forehead. And it's not a good thing.
- [31:10]
A
Not a good thing.
- [31:11]
C
It creates cellular stress. And then all the other mitochondria, instead of focusing on energy production, they're going to go into an inflammatory state. And there's. Exactly, there's evidence that supports this. So you realize I'm managing a community of hundreds of billions of ancient bacteria floating around inside the body, and they're all talking to each other long before I get to think about it.
- [31:30]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [31:31]
C
So that fragmentation is under. We don't talk about enough in biohacking and aging. And the other thing that you talk about, which no one talks about, is the effect of the size of the cell. So the swelling of cells. Something happens when you fly or things like that. And this isn't just like you're getting muffin top, which can just be water outside of cells. This is the cell itself, except expanding.
- [31:51]
A
Right.
- [31:52]
C
So mitochondria is making electricity. We have this electron transport chain. I view it as a wire. And it works, right? It's just carrying electricity.
- [32:02]
A
Exactly.
- [32:02]
C
But when the insulation on the wire, phrase. It's like you've got this cord in.
- [32:07]
A
Your bathroom having shocks, electrical.
- [32:09]
C
And now there's leaks. So now the electricity is getting out in the water on the floor. Like ah, but it's not getting to your hair dryer.
- [32:15]
A
Right, right, right.
- [32:16]
C
So we have these leaks and those leaks are causing problems.
- [32:19]
A
It's like fire.
- [32:21]
C
Yeah. And every leak creates more fraying of the insulation on this. It's not really a wire, but you can visualize it that way. So we have this double problem. One is, okay, we're losing electrons, but.
- [32:34]
A
And you're losing energy.
- [32:35]
C
We're losing energy, but there's something else that comes out of my time as a computer hacker, network engineer. So it's not like the electron just moves, like, slowly from one to the other. Electrons bounce. They go back and forth millions of times a second. So you're thinking, okay, my mitochondria was this big, and it's only 10% bigger. But 10% bigger times a million vibrations back and forth. That actually adds huge amounts of what we call latency. So gamers know what I'm talking about. Right. So if your bandwidth has low latency, it gets there quickly. You can have high bandwidth, and you can have high latency, and it just takes forever. And your calls are jet artery. And that's because of that lag time. So cell swelling equals lag time in mitochondria. And a small amount of swelling is a huge decrease in efficiency of the system. And what do we say at the beginning? Oh, in aging, 48% of people under age 40 have early onset mitochondrial insufficiency. That is it. It's mitochondrial fragmentation and swelling of mitochondria.
- [33:34]
A
100 already over the age of 40 have mitochondrial dysfunction.
- [33:37]
C
And then we get this swelling, get the free radical production.
- [33:40]
A
Right.
- [33:40]
C
And what you're saying is you can use algae, you can use energy bits in order to manage that insulation on the wire so that you repair it. And if some electrons leak, they don't do any damage, and over time, the body has enough energy to fix them.
- [33:54]
A
Yeah.
- [33:54]
C
Okay. What are the components of algae that do that?
- [33:57]
A
So the most important one is this antioxidant called superoxidismutase, which is the one that would. When you have all that excess free radical radicals, normally before the age of 30 says, oh, there's too many free radicals here. But we're covered because we're going to convert them into oxygen and water. Although there is an intermediary stage where it's converted into hydrogen peroxide. So you've got the superoxide dismutase, taking the free radical, the superoxide, which is very damaging, converts it into oxygen and hydrogen peroxide. And then there's another step. The hydrogen peroxide needs glutathione to then be converted to H2O. So now you have this very damaging free radical converted ultimately to oxygen and water because of the superoxide dismutase. Problem solved. So it's like having that big golf umbrella up. And I mentioned the glutathione, because glutathione is a master antioxidant. And in other parts of your cells, you could use cat to convert the hydrogen peroxide into water. But no mitochondria have catalase except the liver and your heart. So the vast majority of your mitochondria rely on glutathione to convert that hydrogen peroxide into water. And algae has the highest concentration of that.
- [35:23]
C
So algae's got the highest concentration. And some people have heard of catalase because the formulas you can buy for topical hair use to do reverse graying usually have catalase in them or sometimes orally, because hydrogen peroxide is a part of this. So it sounds complex, but it's not that. It's not that hard to understand if you think about it. Okay, you have these leaking electrons. Those are free radicals. And the body says, oh, no, I need sod. So it makes sod, and the sod turns it into peroxide, which unfortunately is.
- [35:57]
A
Also pro oxidant, not as bad, but still pro oxidative. Yeah.
- [36:00]
C
And then you need glutathione for that step.
- [36:02]
A
Yes. To. To bring it. To neutralize it even further to oxygen. But it's. It's even more complicated. And this is why nature and the body are just so fascinating to me. I. I've turned into a total geek late in my life, and I am so in the rabbit hole, and I want to help other people understand the outcome of my rabbit hole without having to go down there themselves. So here's where it gets even more complicated. So. So sod is found in three parts of the around the cell. One is outside the cell, one is inside what's called cytoplasm, and the third one is inside the mitochondria itself.
- [36:37]
C
So are these different types of sod?
- [36:38]
A
It's one type of sod, but it has what's called a CO factor, and the cofactor is different in the different areas, which means it needs this other thing to turn on to work.
- [36:49]
C
Okay, so tell me the three places the sod are in the body.
- [36:51]
A
Again, the extracellular, which is outside the cell, the cell inner cellular, inside the cell, inside the cell, and inside the mitochondria.
- [36:59]
C
And they do different things in each location?
- [37:00]
A
Yes.
- [37:01]
C
Okay, that's cool.
- [37:02]
A
Yes. So the one. And they've done exam. They've done tests because the one that's inside the mitochondria requires manganese. The other two require copper and zinc. They've done all these lab tests to find out with mice and whatever. If you reduce the sod, they're called 2, 1 and 3 that are outside the cell, inside the mice. Mice will still live. No, no, Real, they're not doing great, but they don't. They don't die. You pull out the sod in the mitochondria that requires the manganese. They die within hours. You cannot live without. And the sod will not work properly without the manganese. Algae has the highest. Is the daily requirement of. There's not technically an rda, but the recommended amount is the amount that's in the algae. In fact, Chlorella has twice the amount. Now, why is the manganese so important? Important because if the manganese is not there to be the CO factor with the sod, the sod goes, well, you don't have any manganese. I'm going to grab something else. I'm going to grab iron. It grabs iron and then it becomes pro inflammatory. So you need to have manganese with your sod. Of course, SOD is the highest concentration is an algae. You need manganese, highest concentration in algae. So it will work to reduce the free radical to the hydrogen peroxide, which then needs glutathione, which, by the way, is also in the algae. See how beautiful it is?
- [38:25]
C
Wow.
- [38:26]
A
It's crazy how this works. And when you understand it. This is why I even wrote a little book called the Algae Love Story. I am so in love with algae because it's so amazing to me what it does.
- [38:38]
C
If I'm a mitochondrial fetishist. You're an algae fetishist.
- [38:42]
A
There's a term Jack Cruz, who I think you know of, he create. He created this term, the mitochondriac.
- [38:47]
C
Oh, no, no, I created that term.
- [38:49]
A
Oh, did you?
- [38:50]
C
Borrowed it and then got angry.
- [38:51]
A
Okay, well, I'll get credit to you then. The mitochondriac. I am, poor Jack, a mitochondriac, and I am certainly an algiac. I don't know what we'll have to figure.
- [38:59]
C
I made a T shirt at the biocon six years ago and he's like, that's.
- [39:02]
A
Anyway, yeah, no, he's. He's kind of an interesting character, but not in a good way. You are in a good way.
- [39:07]
C
Thank you.
- [39:10]
A
So isn't it fascinating? So you have these free radicals. If you've got the sod, you got your umbrella back. It converts it into oxygen and water with an interim step of hydrogen peroxide. But then if you have the glutathione, then you get the water. So you've got the oxygen in the water. Now that is the main reason why people have loved superoxide dismutase because it reduces the free radicals. But there's Two more amazing benefits before.
- [39:37]
C
We get to the srd. Other benefits.
- [39:40]
A
Okay. All right.
- [39:40]
C
I think you might.
- [39:41]
A
A movie. I'm way standing.
- [39:43]
C
You might have glossed over another major component of aging.
- [39:47]
A
Okay.
- [39:48]
C
And I think I mentioned this in Superhuman, my longevity book, but probably not in enough detail. So free radicals, as we know, you gotta have some or you die. That's why ozone therapy is good for you.
- [39:59]
A
Yes.
- [39:59]
C
And your body makes these things, these antioxidants, naturally. Like, it makes sod, it makes glutathione. But why do men die before women do, on average? Well, earlier I mentioned, well, women are getting rid of iron when they have their monthly cycle.
- [40:16]
A
Okay, I know where you're going with this.
- [40:17]
C
That can be part of it.
- [40:18]
A
Okay. Yeah.
- [40:19]
C
So what that means, though, is that if the body says, if I have enough manganese, I'll grab onto that, and if I don't have manganese, I grab.
- [40:26]
A
Onto iron, which becomes pro inflammatory.
- [40:29]
C
And it does. And it's going to do that more in men.
- [40:31]
A
That is fascinating. That is. It is. Really, I've. Wow.
- [40:34]
C
Yeah. That's why.
- [40:35]
A
Guys, I think you're onto something.
- [40:36]
C
That's why we give blood. Yeah. Again, so if your ferritin is high, that's not good for aging. And what that means is that you're basically oxidizing iron. You're rusting from the inside out.
- [40:46]
A
Exactly.
- [40:47]
C
And the way to fix that would be to have adequate manganese, which is a trace mineral and it's in energy bits. Right.
- [40:52]
A
That could be. That is fascinating.
- [40:55]
C
So what we're saying is men need algae more than women.
- [40:58]
A
Well, they.
- [40:58]
C
I can't believe you'd say that, Catherine. Geez. You're not allowed. Wow, that seems a little bit subtle.
- [41:05]
A
Come on, come on on board. We're here for you. We're here for you. Even though your mitochondria, all the DNA and mitochondria came exclusively from women.
- [41:13]
C
That's a fair point. Yeah. You thank your mom for your mitochondria.
- [41:17]
A
But that is really interesting. I'm going to dig into that. Oh, another rabbit hole.
- [41:22]
C
Yeah. That's an important point. Well, no, you have to have a third interview. Yeah, you laid it out there, Catherine, but I had never thought about. What do you normally do? Well, drop iron. And being anemic is bad. And women oftentimes have problems with anemia much more. Unless they're vegan men, in which case they're screwed in lots of ways. Right. But I'm very intrigued because the idea of adding manganese in the form of energy bits is a really cool strategy to not have problems with iron. And I bet your ferritin would drop, but I don't know for sure.
- [41:52]
A
Yeah, I don't know either, but it'd be worth exploring. But the great. And here's again why I love algae so much. It's not like taking individual supplements because sometimes you can overload on one and you have to worry about taking, taking it at different times with food or without food. Mother nature has put all these components together. So maybe you're taking it for the manganese, but you're also getting the superoxide dismutase. Or maybe you're taking the superoxide, but you're also getting excess protein. Or maybe you're taking it for your skin improvement because it will has more collagen and protects the elastic because it has K2 that moves excess calcium. It doesn't matter what you do with algae. You may take it for one reason, but. But it will give you so many other benefits. But that was one I've never really thought of before. So super cool. But it is interesting to think because the body's going to, it's going to the mitochondria, they're working and they're talking to one another. And if they don't have enough manganese, they're going to, like you said, they're going to grab the iron, which is then going to start rusting you from the inside. And so you need to have that, otherwise you're not going to get the full benefit and you'll just end up with more. You won't get the reduction of the superoxide at all because it becomes pro inflammatory in its own right.
- [43:01]
C
So in the very beginnings of the biohacking movement, I talked about liposomal glutathione. And as we've just learned from all this research you've done, if we're not talking about sod and glutathione together, we're missing a part of the puzzle.
- [43:16]
A
Yeah.
- [43:17]
C
And I do think that there's a case for bringing glutathione levels up throughout the body, especially inside your cells. And we've had like a really cool interview with Nayan Patel talking about what's happening, how to get into the cells. And there's two ways to get glutathione into the cells. One is give the cells the building blocks they need. And those building blocks are important and you can get normal physiological concentrations. And then the other way is to get levels beyond what the body would do with its enzymes and There can be benefits to that and that's to bring in exogenous glutathione, like Nyan was talking about talking about. So what you have in algae that's really interesting though is there's those three aminos that are necessary. What are they?
- [44:01]
A
Glycine, cysteine and glutamic acid.
- [44:04]
C
And they're all in algae.
- [44:05]
A
Correct. And so they create glutathione. And here's the other interesting thing, Dave. The mitochondria cannot make glutathione. It absolutely needs it to be brought into the cell. And so if it's in the algae, then you're getting the glutathione that you need for that final stage of turning the hydrogen peroxide into oxygen. And we're going to later on tell how important that is in so many ways, both for ATP and for protecting the cell from things like cancer.
- [44:41]
C
Glutathione is such an interesting molecule because if you just eat it, it doesn't work because it gets digested into its three amino acids, but then those get absorbed and then it gets rebuilt into glutathione inside the cells.
- [44:53]
A
Right.
- [44:54]
C
So with algae, with what you've got in energy bits, because they're not heat processed, you've got sod, you've got that manganese which you need, and you've got the building blocks of glutathione.
- [45:05]
A
Correct.
- [45:06]
C
So. And they're in the right ratios.
- [45:07]
A
Correct.
- [45:08]
C
And on top of that, you can add in whatever else you want. You could take more manganese if you want to. You could take more sod, which, like I said, that's not a good idea. Get your sod from your energy beds.
- [45:17]
A
Or if you take taking spirulina or chloroquine.
- [45:18]
C
No, no, you really don't. And then you can also add in glutathione and if you're drinking some alcohol, you're not going to be able to make enough to protect your liver. So take some glutathione.
- [45:26]
A
Right, right.
- [45:27]
C
But we've all, in the history of biohacking, we've always been like glutathione, glutathione. And I think that we missed the sod side because you couldn't really buy it. And you're like, I've got it in my energy bits because I processed them the right way.
- [45:38]
A
Correct.
- [45:38]
C
So there you go.
- [45:39]
A
And with the glutathione, chlorella is known as being a detoxing algae because it attaches to all the heavy metals, alcohol.
- [45:47]
C
Hey, we just Switched gears. There's like 100 kinds of algae. But there's two that we use. One is spirulina and one is chlorella. And now we're switching to chlorella.
- [45:54]
A
Yes, we've been well, well all the things the superoxide dismutase, glutathione, manganese, they're in both the spirulina and chlorella. They're in both algae. They're just in more concentrated. Some of them like spirulina has more superoxidis mutase, chlorella has more glutathione. But they both have have both all of these critical building blocks. And so it really depends on where your area of greatest need is. If you're focusing on the detox piece but you still want some mitochondria support through the sod, then let's do the chlorella because you has more glutathione. So it will and it pulls out other toxins.
- [46:34]
C
Okay. I missed that in our last interview. That that subtle difference. And this is why if I'm going to have sushi sushi I take the energy bits chlorella because it's better at detoxing the mercury that's in the fish. So it doesn't go to my brain. And I actually notice a difference in that.
- [46:48]
A
Yeah, we encourage people to take them separately because some they the spirulina will give you more energy mentally, physically does have more sod. So and because your brain has the most mitochondria, I refer to spirulina as brain food. And then chlorella because it's a detoxing wellness algae that builds your immune system and pulls out toxins, kills bacteria, has fiber that feeds the gut biome. It's very gut health algae.
- [47:13]
C
Okay.
- [47:14]
A
So they but of course, you know, mitochondria are everywhere. The only place they're not is in your blood, but they're everywhere else. And so you'll always get the benefit of superoxide dismutase mitochondria health. But you'll get depending on where your greatest needs are, you should really be taking both. And we do encourage you to take spirulina in the morning and afternoon or pre workout because that's when you need energy and focus. Because as you pointed out earlier, your body can't store ATP. So if you need energy to to do brain surgery or be at your show to stay on point, you need spirulina. And then in the evening we encourage people to take the chlorella because when you are sleeping. And this gets back to some of the things I do, which is I treasure my sleep a great deal, is that's when your body repairs itself. That's when it detoxes. Whether you had cocktails or you were working out or you were exposed, as we all are, to various toxins, that's when your body is getting rid of. Rid of it. And it also stimulates chlorella, also stimulates what I call peristalsis, which is a bowel movement. Because when you detox, you do it through breath, sweat, urine, and bowel movements. And most people, frankly, are constipated, so they're. They're. You got to get rid of that junk in your trunk. And chlorella will. Will do that. So. And I know we're sort of doing a little segue away from mitochondria there, but I do want people to know that chlorella has all of these benefits, but it also has its own little. It's like having kids, you know, you love them both, but they both have different talents. Maybe one's a great artist and one's a great mathematician. So. But you love them both. Both algae will love. That's why I wrote this book, you know, the algae love Story. It will love you back to. To. To life and to health, but do it with just different sort of nuances.
- [48:52]
C
Okay. And there's a lot of nuances in the production of these things that we're going to get into. What I want to understand, though, is you mentioned three times a day. Do I really have to take it three times, two times week A to work? I'm lazy. Like, if I'm spirulina, like, I don't want to take up every meal I.
- [49:08]
A
Got to do you need to take them every day?
- [49:10]
C
Every day. But it was twice a day for spirulina. Going to do it?
- [49:13]
A
No. You could take 10 tablets will get you what we call it will nourish you. Okay. 20 will give you more improved benefits. And 30 would be optimal. You could have 30 for lunch. You could take them all one day. You could spread them out if you want the most improvement in your focus and energy. 30. And for therapeutics amounts, 30 is really what you want.
- [49:32]
C
Okay, so 30 in the morning.
- [49:34]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [49:34]
C
Okay.
- [49:35]
A
And if you're a mouth, swallow them down, chew them. You know, most people don't chew them because they're so loaded with protein that they do stick to your teeth a bit.
- [49:41]
C
But yeah, you'll get green teeth from it. So, okay, so you take 30 in the morning, if you're economizing, you can take 20 or 10. Okay. Something like that. All right, so that's morning. And maybe you spread them out if you're really working on it. And then at night. How much chlorella again?
- [49:56]
A
10 will give you the immune support, but 20 or 30 are what you need for detox and cleansing. Okay. So. And honestly, the chlorella, which we call recovery bits, they taste pretty good. They taste more like a sunflower seed. I sprinkle sun sea salt on them, or I have them with pistachio nuts.
- [50:12]
C
I've literally given them to my kids forever, even though they're little. And they would just eat them, like little green candies, right? Big green smiles and stuff.
- [50:20]
A
Yeah, yeah. They think it's fun because it turns their tongue green, something. So it depends. So that's why we say you're. It's food, so it's your choice. What. Some people need one egg, some need four. So 10 is a kind of a minimum. And kids could take them to give them same amount or half the amount of an adult or. And pets. Pets love them. That's the true sign of something that's good for you.
- [50:40]
C
I gave it to my dog Merlin. Every day he would get some chlorella.
- [50:45]
A
Yeah, right.
- [50:46]
C
And we just put one in his food, and they like to eat grass anyway, so he always liked the energy bits.
- [50:50]
A
So, okay, give them three or four or five or ten if they're bigger.
- [50:53]
C
So they literally was 15, too. So.
- [50:55]
A
Yeah. Yeah, good stuff.
- [50:57]
C
I think it helped. I think that was a regular, daily occurrence.
- [50:59]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [51:00]
C
Do you make one specifically, like, energy bits for pets?
- [51:03]
A
No, they. They're. They're. They're part of the family. So we, you know. No, no, we don't. But we do sell some to veterinarians, just like we sell some to biological dentists because they use it for the. The chlorella for. For detox. But, yeah, they're good for. This is why I, again, love them so much, because there's no drug interactions, and they're good for every single age group, whether they're children, teenagers, adults, or seniors.
- [51:26]
C
Okay.
- [51:27]
A
I guess I'm technically a senior.
- [51:29]
C
I mean, you're gonna have to. You're gonna have to show your ID for that.
- [51:34]
A
Right. Right now. Should we get back to mitochondria, though? Because I still want to talk about. No, you don't.
- [51:39]
C
Not yet.
- [51:39]
A
Okay. All right.
- [51:40]
C
There's something else that I think is. Is really important because, as I mentioned, I used spirulina And I didn't get any results. And so I was a spirulina skeptic until we talked. And you're like, you got to do it right. So what's different in the way that you're making spirulina so that it works?
- [51:58]
A
Okay, energy with spirulina tablets are different because we do not use high heat in our processing, which allows all of the nutrients to be preserved, particularly this critical one called superoxide dismutase, which will protect your mitochondrial. Boom.
- [52:12]
C
Okay, that makes so much sense. So you've eliminated that. Are there other things you're doing in the spirulina that's different?
- [52:17]
A
We also grow it in triple filtered spring mountain water, not the ocean. This is really important because algae will absorb whatever's in the water. So if your water is not clean, whatever's there will get into the algae. Sort of like having a goldfish bowl. If you didn't change your water, poor Goldie's not doing well. So we. So we have no toxins and we preserve all the nutrients. And it's not just superoxide dismutase that's preserved. There's a blue pigment in spirulina called phycocyanin. P, H Y C O C Y, N A N. This pigment isn't found anywhere else in the universe just by algae. And it's an antioxidant, and it has powerful properties like it kills. It's proven to kill cancer cells. And I can walk you through the pathway. It ejects what's called the cytokines C molecule, which triggers capases, which triggers apoptosis. And cancer cells cannot go through apoptosis. So this thing. So this is what's so cool. I call it spirulina intelligent food, because you have to be intelligent to take it, and it knows what to do in your body. And just as an example, when you have a healthy cell, the blue pigment in spirulina, called phycocyanin, is a helper cell in the electron transport chain. I didn't mention these earlier. There's two helper cells. One's called CoQ10 and the other one is called cytochrome C. In a healthy cell, the blue pigment in spirulina can detect that it's a healthy cell. And what it does, it speeds up the electrons moving across the electron train. It's like having a Ferrari.
- [53:47]
C
Vroom.
- [53:48]
A
This is one of the reasons why spirulina gives you energy and chlorella does not, because it speeds up that Cytochrome C molecule, the blue pigment. However, in a senescent cell or a cancer cell, the phycocine can detect that. And instead of speeding up the cytochrome C molecule, it ejects it, which triggers something called capases, which triggers this thing called apoptosis, which is cell death. And this is incredible. And chemotherapy companies are using phycocyanin in their cancer treatments because then they can tell if the cancer is being. Is being killed. How? They measure the amount of cytochrome C in your serum, in your blood serum. And if it's there, it knows that that's because the cancer cells have been killed. How cool is that? This pigment knows what to do in your body without any instructions. That's going beyond the call of duty as far as I'm concerned.
- [54:43]
C
It is. And there's another piece here. You might have gone here in your research or not. I love it that we're talking about phycocyanin. This is another one of those things that just no one talks about it.
- [54:55]
A
I have another one to add on then. Maybe you've already already got it.
- [55:00]
C
Phycocyanin activates exactly the same things that methylene blue does.
- [55:05]
A
Okay.
- [55:05]
C
But it does it in a way that's much more compatible with the cell.
- [55:08]
A
Yes.
- [55:09]
C
So you could look at taking spirulina, as long as it has all the components intact. So we'll say energy bits. If you're taking that, you're getting some of the benefits of methylene blue. And methylene blue is a double edged sword. It's kind of like a big hammer. And it's good for many people, but it's not always good all the time.
- [55:26]
A
Yeah.
- [55:27]
C
But phycocyanin, which is bioidentical to what our cells are using, that you can take.
- [55:32]
A
Absolutely.
- [55:33]
C
And so I think there's an argument for those of us who are saying, well, I want to microdose methylene blue. Well, you could just take your spirulina and get phycocyanin that activates the same cytochrome C pathways, which is super cool.
- [55:45]
A
Yeah. We were contacted by Dr. William Lee.
- [55:48]
C
Oh yeah, he's around the show.
- [55:49]
A
Yes. And so. And he runs the angiogenes organization. I think it's angio.org he invited us to his conference a number of years ago because he said, did you know that spirulina, the blue phycocyanin in spirulina, has what's called anti angiogenesis properties. What does that mean? When you have cancer or a tumor, it needs more oxygen, it needs more nutrients. So it literally hijacks the blood vessels and reroutes them to feed the cancer or the table tumor. Phycocyanin is the traffic cop that says, nope, not going there. It stops that. It is able to prevent the movement of the blood vessels to feed the tumor. That's called anti angiogenesis, because angiogenesis is the creation of blood vessels, and anti prevents it, so it stops the growth of blood vessels to tumors. Amazing, right? And he knows his stuff and, like, he was on your show, so he's a smart guy.
- [56:43]
C
So. So chlorella, some of the stuff that I took seemed like it was working better. I would get more clarity, and other times, not so much. And I never understood the difference. So what is important in chlorella processing to make it work?
- [56:56]
A
Chlorella needs to be grown very carefully, even more carefully than spirulina. It actually, when it's growing, you have to start it in a lab, in a small test tube, and then it gets to a certain stage, and then it grows to a larger test tube and then a larger test tube and then the larger one. Then you plant it outdoors and in a small pond, and then a larger pond. It's very complicated. This is why you don't see chlorella being grown anywhere else in the world, except in Asia, because It's taken them 40 years to figure out all of these growing techniques. So the company that grows it for us is one of the oldest companies, and they have masterminded this growing technique. So it's very complicated to grow. We. We do not use high heat to dry the chlorella, which happens with a lot of the other chlorella out there, which deactivates many of the nutrients. High heat will kill and deactivate enzymes and pigments. And, of course, chlorella has the highest chlorophyll in the world. Chlorophyll is very important because it builds your blood. The chemical composition of hemoglobin is virtually identical to chlorophyll. The only difference is your hemoglobin has an iron atom in the middle, and chlorophyll has magnesium. Chlorella is called chlorophyll.
- [58:13]
C
It's a copper that you need as well. Yes. And a copper.
- [58:16]
A
Yes.
- [58:16]
C
Right. And the copper is really important for the other sod. Just as a little side note. Right, okay. So you don't damage them with heat, but is there anything else that chlorella needs?
- [58:24]
A
Well, then you have to crack the cell wall because spirulina does not have a cellulose wall because it's a bacteria. Bacteria. Chlorella has the hardest cell cellulose wall which needs to be cracked because if you don't crack it, your body cannot absorb the nutrients.
- [58:40]
C
It's like eating a walnut still in its shell.
- [58:42]
A
Yes, exactly. Great analogy. Now, the FDA requires you to sell cracked cell wall chlorella in America. So I don't believe there's any available in America or North America unless it is cracked. But there are countries in the EU you can get uncracked chlorella. And I would say, well, why would you want it? Can't absorb the nutrients. There's other. One more thing I want to tell share with you is that there are new growing techniques for both spirulina, but also particularly chlorella. And they grow it in glass tubes with LED lights. It's been called fermented chlorella. Now it's probably ultimately the long term way to grow it because you can, it's protected because it's no environmental exposure, yada, yada yada. But they found that the cell wall is soft, softer, and if it's softer, it's not going to be able to hold on to the toxins as well as the traditional way of growing it.
- [59:39]
C
Okay. So you reduce environmental stress on it.
- [59:41]
A
And it doesn't have the same efficacy.
- [59:43]
C
It doesn't work as well.
- [59:44]
A
Correct. So we grow ours the traditional way without high heat to dry it, cracking it correctly to preserve all the nutrients and we make sure it's grown in triple filter spring mountain water so no toxins. And I mean, you don't want to take chlorella, which is supposed to be pulling out toxins if it has toxins in it to start with.
- [60:03]
C
That says a lot. I know that your whole energy bits line, you're obsessive about all these things. And I worry a lot about chlorella because if it's just grown in seawater, seawater has more mercury than ever before. And chlorella is a mercury sponge. And the mercury got there because of coal mining. You burn coal and then you get mercury in the water. And this is where why fish is all contaminated with mercury. So if you're getting chlorella that was grown in the ocean, you don't want to do that. Same with spirulina. And the other thing is, whenever you're doing hydroponics, and this will be a little bit sketchy because some people like, oh, hydroponics are the future sunlight is information and stress on plants makes them stronger. So if you want to have good coffee, it needs to have enough stress to make the compounds that are there. And if you have a regular that had no plant stress, it doesn't have any of the antioxidants. So just like our cells, if you stress them enough, they'll make more sod until they run out of the ability to do that. So what you're saying is that the energy bits chlorella that you have, that it's receiving appropriate environmental stress so that it makes phycocyanin and it makes sod and it makes the right amount of these things and then you don't heat it like a lot of brands do, because it costs more to dry it instead of to heat dry it. And then how do you crack it?
- [61:20]
A
It's tumbled.
- [61:21]
C
Okay, got it. Some mechanical stuff. Got it. And then that. You said the dose for the energy bits Chlorella is 10 to 30 and at nighttime is best.
- [61:32]
A
Yes. And you can have, you can have more than that if you want, but 10 would be enough to replace. If you don't like vegetables and carnivores, I'm talking to you too. You're not getting the chlorophyll that you need. You're not getting the sod. There's a lot of nutrients that you're missing. Missing. Carnivores are great. It's a path that a lot of people follow, but you're still missing particular nutrients. And so there are no lectins or oxalates in chlorella or spirulina. So you can get all the nutrients you're missing and not move out of your carnivore lifestyle. So we want to be sure people are getting the nutrients they need so that you can age well. We don't want you to just live long. We want you to live well. And this is why I, I love the spirulina and chlorella so much. The tablet form, it's effortless. There's 100,000 studies proving the science and it's effortless and has all the nutrients that you are missing for that optimal energy, life, wellness, brain health, everything.
- [62:28]
C
You said something really important at the end there before. We called it the carnivore diet. I tried it because I was testing the limits of the, the bulletproof diet recommendations. And I did this for a while and I did get leaky gut. And at first I felt amazing, but then you don't have some of the nutrients you need. And what I realized is that throughout history, first we had salt trading routes, that's how we got our minerals, and then they became spice trading roots. And that's how we got our plant antioxidants and all these other things or better beneficial. And now we have all this weird recent stuff because we have refrigerators, like you have to have a big bowl of rainbow colored greens which have a ton of plant toxins in them. So what you want to do when you eat plants is get the plants that have the lowest size and the highest ratio of beneficial nutrients and the lowest amount of toxins. And that's usually things like oregano and rosemary and all that. But what you're doing with energy bits is you're saying, well, let's look at the specific nutrients present in these very high density or high nutrient density plants. And let's use those. And let's use those almost medically.
- [63:39]
A
Right.
- [63:39]
C
And it's a, it's an important point. So if you're a carnivore, you should be crusting your steak the way I do with the right type of herbs, the low oxalate herbs. And there are some. And you, I believe, ought to be taking some spirulina and some chlorella. And yes, I actually, you go downstairs, you'll see energy bits on my counter because that's what I take. Yeah. So there you go. And of course, everyone wants a discount. EnergyBits.com, use code BEYOND because that's the name of the Beyond Biohacking conference now. So you get 20% off energybits.com code beyond 20% off. Katherine, you're a genius and I think you're accelerating, not slowing down.
- [64:15]
A
I'm just sharing what I've learned over 15 years so everybody else doesn't have to spend 15 years. The information, information is there, the science is there. Our bodies need support. But you need the recipe of what to, how to do that. And I love algae because it has all of the ingredients that the recipe your body needs so we can all live well and long and enjoy the ride. And I'm an example of it. Today's, you know, I'm entering my 70th year. I just want everybody to feel as great as I, I do. So thank you, Dave, for giving me a celebratory interview.
- [64:52]
C
You're welcome. You're a testament. Ultimately, if someone comes in, says, I have this great weight loss product and they weigh 300 pounds like I did, maybe the product needs improvement. You're a living testimony to energy bits.
- [65:05]
A
And well, testament to biohacking. So there you go.
- [65:09]
C
Yeah, I appreciate you coming in and sharing this knowledge because there's, there's stuff that I've never Talked about in 1300 episodes that we covered today, and that's, that's impressive. So thank you.
- [65:18]
A
Well, thank you.
- [65:19]
C
See you next time on the Human Upgrade Podcast.
- [65:27]
D
The Human Upgrade, formerly Bulletproof Radio, was created and is hosted by Dave Asprey. The information contained in this podcast is provided for informational purposes only and is not intended for the purposes of diagnosing, treating, curing, or preventing any disease. Before using any products referenced on the podcast, consult with your healthcare provider carefully read all labels, and heed all directions and cautions that accompany the products. Information found or received through the podcast should not be used in place of a consultation or advice from a healthcare provider. If you suspect you have a medical problem or should you have any healthcare questions, please promptly call or see your healthcare provider. This podcast, including Dave Asprey and the producers, disclaim responsibility for any possible adverse effects from the use of information contained herein. Opinions of guests are their own and this podcast does not endorse or accept responsibility for statements made by guests. This podcast does not make any representations or warranties about guest qualifications or credibility. This podcast may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products or services. Individuals on this podcast may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to herein. This podcast is owned by Bulletproof Media.
- [66:29]
A
It.