The Secret Peptides and Underground Compounds Doctors Won’t Talk About : 1413

Summary

The Human Upgrade™ with Dave Asprey – Episode 1413

The Secret Peptides and Underground Compounds Doctors Won’t Talk About

Date: February 10, 2026
Host: Dave Asprey
Guest: Dylan Gemelli

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Overview

In this engaging and irreverent episode, Dave Asprey welcomes biohacker and supplement expert Dylan Gemelli for a candid discussion on the world of peptides, SARMs (Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators), research chemicals, and cutting-edge performance enhancers. Together, they dissect the legal, ethical, and practical realities of using underground or experimental compounds for physique, longevity, cognitive enhancement, and personal empowerment—often skirting the mainstream medical establishment.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. SARMs, Peptides, and Research Chemicals: Power & Perception

• Definitions and Legal Gray Zones

  • Peptides and SARMs are often sold as “research chemicals” due to ambiguous legality; not outright illegal, but “not for human consumption.”
    C: “The term research chemical is really just a legality, right?” [01:41]
  • Many compounds are technically legal but not FDA-approved for consumption; marketing restrictions drive the underground scene.

• Performance Enhancement: Ethics and Stigma

  • Both hosts challenge the notion of “cheating” in health optimization.
    A: “There’s no such thing as cheating. And if you think I’m cheating, that’s ’cause you’re losing. I will not ask for a permission slip to take care of myself. It’s a fundamental innate right.” [00:22]
    C: “It’s cheating to put yourself at the level you’re supposed to be at so you can actually be who you’re supposed to be. Tell me how that's cheating.” [00:15, 53:13]

• Medical Regulation & Cultural Double Standards

  • Dave expresses surprise at feeling more optimistic about FDA’s direction with peptides and hormones, citing recent conversations with FDA leadership.
    A: “I’ve never been more excited about that... I never thought I would say that.” [03:04]

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2. Personal Journeys and Anecdotes

• Dave’s SARM Experimentation

  • Gained 29 pounds of muscle in six weeks—without changing diet or exercise—by combining SARMs and other research chemicals. Also tore ligaments due to disproportionate muscular development.
    A: “Put on 29 pounds of muscle in about six weeks...with no change in diet or exercise. I did tear ligaments in both shoulders because ligaments don’t grow like muscles.” [00:00, 07:52]

• MK-677 (Ibutamoren): The “Growth Hormone Secretagogue”

  • Instead of direct HGH, Dave restored his growth hormone levels with MK-677 after body had stopped producing GH.
    A: “I did MK677 just for the last three months. And what do you know? My levels of human growth hormone went back up to normal.” [11:13]

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3. SARMs, Peptides, and Usage Strategies

• Compound Rundown

  • Early SARMs: MK-677, MK-2866, S4, GW-501516, LGD-4033, S23.
  • Bodybuilders and longevity enthusiasts overlap in chemical usage but not always in philosophy.

• Risks, Benefits, and Nuances

  • These compounds can be transformational for those with muscle wasting, severe health issues, or as performance enhancers, but carry some documented risks.
  • The hosts agree on the importance of muscle strength (over pure mass) and neural drive for longevity.

• For Beginners (40–60, by Gender)

  • S4 recommended for men and women; aesthetic muscle hardening, lean muscle gain, minimal suppression for women, mild side-effect profile. [14:31]
  • Discussion of vision side effects (“yellow flashing”) and easy mitigation.

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4. Diet, Biohacking, and Fitness Real Talk

• Unpacking Nutrition Myths

  • Low-fat/high-cardio regimens led to poor health for both hosts.
  • Emphasis on animal protein, healthy fats, avoiding caloric restriction dogma, and individualized diet.
    A: “When I looked my best, I felt my worst.” [16:10] A: “So many listeners are going to benefit...the worst that happens if you’ve tried something new for a week or two is that it won’t work.” [28:59]

• Incremental vs. All-in Experimentation

  • Dave prefers “cocktail” or all-at-once intervention over isolate-and-test approaches, citing practicality. A: “Do all of it this month...at the end of the month...something in there is working, right?” [30:08]

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5. Testosterone: Experience, Judgment, and New Technology

• Hormonal Optimization

  • Dave and Dylan have extensively used injectable testosterone for years; discuss the advantages of new oral forms (Kyzatrex), which maintain natural testicular function and daily rhythm.
    A: “I've been on Kyzatrex for the last 18 months...if it’s date night, like, I’ll just have an extra. And then it hits you...right when I needed it most.” [46:48–49:35]

• Judgment and Societal Resistance

  • They critique the stigma of hormone replacement and equate it with using technology to restore baseline function, not “cheating.”
  • Insurance costs and access are major impediments for many people seeking optimal health.

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6. Peptides, Cognitive Enhancement, and Neurological Health

• Favorite Peptides

  • Dylan’s list: MOTS-c, AOD-9604, Semax, Selank (especially for neuro-cognitive benefits).
    C: “I like C-Max and Celan. I’m really kind of gotten more into the understanding of the importance of the neurological side.” [41:22]

• Neuro-Physical Integration

  • Neural drive, mind-body connection, and the necessity of both strength and cognitive work for true longevity.

• Nootropics

  • Dave uses Modafinil daily (“one of the most effective and studied pharmaceuticals for cognitive function”) since the early days of biohacking.
    A: “I’m on modafinil right now. I’ve been on modafinil for 25 years. Every day. Almost every day anyway.” [54:49]

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7. Community, Autonomy, and the Future of Biohacking

• Medical Autonomy & Human Rights

  • Strong statements opposing medical “tyranny” and advocating for the right to self-experiment and optimize.
  • Founding fathers and the missing constitutional right to medical freedom discussed.
    A: “It’s a fundamental innate right...I will not ask for a permission slip to take care of myself.” [54:10, 55:48]

• Building a Biohacking Movement

  • The importance of open knowledge, community (Biohacking Conference), and rejecting health dogmas.
    A: “We just needed a name for what we do so we could have community.” [59:17]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On “Cheating” and Self-Optimization

  • A: “There’s no such thing as cheating. If you think I’m cheating, that’s because you’re losing.” [00:22]
  • C: “It’s cheating to put yourself at the level you’re supposed to be at so you can actually be who you’re supposed to be. Tell me how that’s cheating.” [53:13]

• On Experimentation and Trying New Protocols

  • A: “The worst that happens if you’ve tried something new for a week or two is that it won't work.” [29:08]

• On Nutrition and Fat

  • A: “Fat makes you fat, right? I mean, Lane told me, right? So does a lot of dipshits.” [25:40]
  • A: “I have eaten unlimited fat... for 15 years. And my blood is just fine.” [45:49]

• On Community and Growth

  • C: “The amount of effect, it doesn’t end, you know, it only gets bigger. And it’s helped me to get my knowledge base bigger, to help my audience and to keep sharing it, and that's what it’s all about.” [61:14]

• On Medical Autonomy

  • A: “I will not ask for a permission slip...It’s a fundamental innate right.” [54:10]

• On Practical Biohacking

  • A: “I do everything to make my body healthier, my mind healthier. I use neurofeedback instead of meditating because it’s more effective per minute.” [54:34]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro to SARMs & Biohacking Ethics – [00:00–02:51]
• Peptides, FDA Change & Legal Nuance – [02:51–04:13]
• Dave's 29-lb SARM Experiment, SARMs 101 – [07:42–09:56]
• Personal Growth Hormone Restoration with MK-677 – [10:16–11:28]
• Controversies & Community in Biohacking – [12:07–13:48]
• SARMs for Men and Women: Protocols – [14:16–17:30]
• Diet, Recovery, and Biohacking Mindsets – [24:12–28:59]
• Incremental vs. Cocktail Experimentation – [30:08–31:38]
• Plaque Reversal and Heart Health Hacks – [31:38–36:21]
• Vitamin D, Sun, and Melanotan – [37:17–39:13]
• Peptides for Libido and Cognitive Enhancement – [39:13–41:40]
• Strength vs. Mass, Longevity Myths – [42:20–44:47]
• Diet & Caloric Surplus for Muscle, Longevity – [45:15–47:29]
• Oral Testosterone (Kyzatrex) vs. Injections – [47:29–49:41]
• Healthcare Access, Costs, Autonomy – [51:13–53:13]
• Medical Philosophy, Right to Self-Optimize – [54:10–56:18]
• Building Community & Biohacking’s Future – [59:17–61:30]

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Conclusion

Dave Asprey and Dylan Gemelli provide a frank, humorous, and data-informed exploration of biohacking with research chemicals, SARMs, nootropics, and peptides. Their message challenges stigma, urges self-ownership in health decisions, and calls for community among experimenters. Both advocate for informed risk-taking and emphasize that “cheating” simply means striving for one’s optimal potential. For anyone exploring biohacking’s fringe or navigating health transformation outside mainstream medicine, this episode is essential, direct, and empowering.

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Find Dylan on Instagram: @dylangemelli
More on Dave and community events: biohackingconference.com

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Note: This summary omits ads and non-content sections per instructions.

Transcript

[A]

Let's talk about some of your favorite sarms and my backstory for this so people know I used a combination of these things 10 years ago on 29 pounds of muscle in about six weeks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

With no change in diet or exercise. I did tear ligaments in both shoulders because ligaments don't grow like muscles.

[C]

I say it's cheating to put yourself at the level you're supposed to be at so you can actually be who you're supposed to be. Tell me how that's cheating.

[A]

The idea of cheating is absurd. You know what always makes me mad? The people who talk most about cheating, they actually drive to the studio to talk about this. You mean we use technology to make life better? There's no such thing as cheating. And if you think I'm cheating, that's cuz you're losing. I will not ask for a permission slip to take care of myself. It's a fundamental, innate right. You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey. So Dylan, second time on the show. I didn't ask this the first time. Now since that time, one of the things I appreciate about you is we might hang out in some similar corners of the biohacking world, but you maybe talk about it more than I do in the world of research chemicals and underground stuff. I mean, I rebuilt my health using underground stuff and I brought a lot of it out from the underground over the last 15 years. Even some of the early peptide stuff and things like that. But the number of peptides has just exploded since I wrote my book. I've got a dozen of them I'm using right now, and there's probably another 500 that are interesting that I may or may not use at some point. And then there's all the research chemicals. So where should we go first? Are research chemicals more powerful than peptides or are peptides more powerful than research chemicals or are they mostly the same thing?

[C]

Well, it's funny because peptides actually fall into research chemicals technically, right? So when I think of research chemicals, I'm looking at sarms, I'm looking at peptides and nootropics because a lot of those aren't technically legal. So the, the term research chemical is really just a legality, right?

[A]

I mean, they're not illegal?

[C]

No, it's a gray area. I've been. I got introduced into that market in 2012 right after I got out of trouble and went straight into a gray area. But it was more discussion based and then going into understanding what is not for human consumption mean because they have to write that to sell it. They can't market it. And as a use for you. So if they market it and they put on their, oh, you can get this amount of muscle or lose this amount of weight, they're toast. They can get fined or shut down.

[A]

Isn't it so weird that glyphosate says not for human consumption, but they spray it on our food and then we eat it.

[C]

Yeah. Amazing. Isn't that funny how that works?

[A]

Yeah. And that's not illegal.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Huh. But they maybe they don't have any regulatory control over what I put in my body because it's my body. I thought, kind of weird. Yeah.

[C]

That's where I've been living forever, man.

[A]

Yeah. I, I think we have some new friends at the FDA who are very peptide friendly and they're fast track friendly. And there's value to an FDA approval of something.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Hopefully more value now because unfortunately the FDA has approved like an Alzheimer's drug that provably didn't work. And they admitted that they approved it because they just needed a win, even though it wasn't a win. Like, that is not okay. And it cheapens what ought to be a gold stamp of approval. But I'm surprisingly. I never thought I'd say this in my life. I'm more trustful of what I see coming out of the FDA now because I got to interview the commissioner and I asked him the hard question, like, what big pharma company are you going to go to work for next? Wow. And he just laughed. Because I'm a surgeon. I've never worked for big pharma. I took an oath I won't. And then the whole conversation was about fixing things. And just the other day he's like, oh, yeah, testosterone doesn't need to be scheduled. Like it's a controlled drug because some weirdo in the 90s used it wrong. So let's be rational about this. And so he's fixed women's health with hormones. He's fixing men's health. I'm like, I think we have someone who understands how it works. I've never been more excited about that. I never thought I would say that. So anyway, I'm digressing a bit, but I'm hopeful. Are you?

[C]

I am. I'm hopeful. I. I think there's always going to be some sort of control there in a way. But I think that we're moving in the right direction now. It's just hoping we keep them there.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

I found that once people use these and they see the efficacy and how they work and what they do, and they have an understanding that they're not pds, they're not performance enhancing drugs. If they're used properly, then they have multitudes of benefits.

[A]

What's wrong with performance enhancing drugs?

[C]

Well, nothing. I mean, nothing in my view, but.

[A]

I mean, everyone listening to the show, it probably wants to perform better at some aspect of their life. And if there's a pharmaceutical has little or no downside or a natural compound and lots of upside, isn't that what rib eye is?

[C]

But here's the problem. You and I understand what performance enhancing drugs mean, but in terminology out there, it's a steroid or something that does something harmful or illegal, so to speak. But even steroids, if used properly, don't have to be nearly as destructive as they have been.

[A]

And I mean, I would argue that steroids have saved more lives by a hundred times because hydrocortisone or cortisol is a steroid they give you in the hospital. In fact, I take a little bit of it almost every day. Oops. Helps with stress management. We have these weird conversations where people think coffee and caffeine are the same thing. They're not. They think tobacco and nicotine are the same thing. They're not. And they think drugs are bad. And the reality is every substance, including water, has benefits and it has a downside. And putting them in these artificial buckets is for simpletons.

[C]

Well, I ask you this question, back to you. What's more harmful? A steroid like Anavar, like an anabolic steroid or, or oxycontin? Which one's going to be more harmful?

[A]

Which one makes more money? I gotta think like.

[C]

Well, true, true, exactly.

[A]

You have to think like an overseer.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. I gotta wrap my head around.

[A]

Or alcohol, for that matter. True. Like. So if alcohol is legal, they have no say over research chemicals.

[C]

Yeah, I agree. I always argued that marijuana was far more beneficial and less hurtful than alcohol. I argued that for. Since I started smoking pot.

[A]

It's also not good for you.

[C]

No.

[A]

Let's face it. Yeah. All right. Are you into the enhanced games? Oh, so, so, so what? Tell me your take on that.

[C]

Oh, I don't know. I'm anything enhanced wise, I'm, I'm really for it, as long as it's not going to kill you. And the, the spray that you gave me, by the way, nice.

[A]

I gave, I gave you a 1 milligram microdose of nicotine and I had never taken any. Oh, no wonder you're having a good time. Yeah, I know. Your dopamine receptors are firing like no one's business. Thrilled.

[C]

And running on low sleep and everything, but feel phenomenal. And it's, you know, I was amped to be here anyway, but that gave me an extra amp. Sweet. Thank you.

[A]

And just a quick aside there. Nicotine is exactly what we're talking about. Yep. It's one of these things. It's not tobacco. And since 1986, we've had medical research published that shows it prevents or reverses Alzheimer's disease. It's neuroprotective. It uncouples your mitochondria. It's been used for almost a thousand years to treat certain medical conditions. But because smoking causes cancer, people throw the baby out with the bathwater. So I've been using nicotine for 10 plus years. Written about my longevity book. And in low doses, it actually has a net benefit. Like drinking coffee? No, it's addictive. Yeah, well, coffee is addictive. Three days of headaches and. But you know what else is addictive? Sleep.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Exercise.

[C]

Right. Water. I live there with the exercise especially, so. I know, man, I know. There's good addictions and bad addictions. Just like there's good and bad of anything.

[A]

Exactly. Let's talk about some of your favorite sarms. And my backstory for this so people know I use a combination of these things. Ten years ago.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Put on 29 pounds of muscle in about six weeks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

With no change in diet or exercise to the point that I was going on stage for Tony Robbins at upw. And I take out the shirt. I was. I put on buttons all ripped. I'm on stage, this ugly blue shirt. I bought it like Kmart next door or something at Walmart. Somebody bought it for me, but it was like, this is terrible because I had to go to an xl. And I did tear ligaments in both shoulders because ligaments don't grow like muscles. So don't do that. But this is how powerful. 29 pounds of muscle is not Triv.

[C]

Deal. No, no. And that is a difficult task, but can be done with the right ones.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

On the right diet. Now, depending upon which one. See, when I started, there were two. Well, I take that back. There were three. But MK677 is not technically a SARM.

[A]

My favorite. But it's not a SARM.

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Talk about that one first. MK677.

[B]

What is it?

[C]

It's a. Well, it's just a cretagogue, really. And. And it stimulates that ghrelin, it's it, people use it to eat a lot of. I like it because it helps to get that HGH release and I compare it to and oftentimes recommend it over using HGH because it's safer. Bodybuilders use it so they can eat a ton. And a lot of people that struggle with appetite will shift to that, which is great and fine. When it first came out, it was going for like 3 and 400 bucks a bottle. Nobody bought it. It was MK2866 and S4. That was it. That's all you could buy. And then it started to evolve into GW501,516, LGD4033 and now got S23, which is basically a steroid that is termed male contraceptive because it completely obliterates your natural testosterone, but it'll blow you up. Wow.

[A]

So if that was just a word full of or a mouthful of numbers for you, these are research chemical names for compounds that mimic the effect of steroids in the body.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

And what I was taking back in the day was LGD. I was taking GW 501516, S4 and MK677. That was, that was the other one I took back then.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

And, and just if you're saying, what are all these things? These are things that are documented over the last 10 years that have massive improvements in certain aspects and they have some risks.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And for people who have muscle wasting disease, people who are really unfit, you can throw a switch more powerful than peptides with these research chemicals.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

And let's talk about MK677. So I don't know if I've shared this on the show. I, you know, I was very fat. I've had all kinds of problems with my health and I've reversed them all. And my body, oh, 10 years ago was making zero growth hormone. And I had this tested with the glucagon test, like the proper test, not just looking at insulin levels and insulin like growth factor. So working with the medical doctor, I went on human growth hormone physiological replacement. Not the kind of stuff to get you jacked. Did it for five years, like, oh, if you go on this, you can never do it again. Like Peter Atia, fear style. And like he's the guy who's afraid of bioidentical testosterone. So like, but I, my body has none. So then I said, you know, it's time to taper off it. And I did. And my growth hormone levels were fine. I rebuilt My biology. So I turned on my own growth hormone. Then last year, I went through a period of extreme travel and some other biotoxin stuff, and my growth hormone levels plummeted again. So I could have taken growth hormone. I could have taken the peptides that cause you to do it, like Ipamorelin, CJC, or I could have done MK677. So I did MK677 just for the last three months. And what do you know? My levels of human growth hormone went back up to normal.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

No doctor's gonna tell you to do this. Actually, you're working with me and my team at Unlimited Life. We would tell you to do that. But most doctors aren't gonna tell you to do it. No, we can't prescribe it, but we mention it's possible. Then if you do it on your own, that's your own thing.

[C]

That's right. And. And oftentimes because I was with the bodybuilding sphere for however many years and I, I started bringing that up and I used to get the hardest time from the meatheads. Oh, it's not the same. It's not the same. And then now if you go and talk to anybody that owns a research chemical site, that's always a top seller.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

Because everybody knows now. And I just used to get. Just people beating my head down over it.

[A]

It's really funny because when I started the biohacking movement, I've been running a longevity nonprofit group in Palo Alto for, I don't know, six years. I was also in the gym a lot. Right. And these bodybuilders know stuff. The longevity people should know and vice versa. And then the neuro guys, and then the meditation guys, they also. So I wanted to bring it all together under one umbrella so we could at least talk.

[C]

That's it. They all go together.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

If everybody would just stop thinking they know everything or that there's not alternative methods.

[A]

Oh, you mean like the Lane Norton effect?

[C]

Oh, here we go.

[A]

So I was talking to Biolane's mom the other day. I love health bullies. He's my favorite health bully.

[C]

I don't get it. I just don't get it. I don't get why people have to do that.

[A]

I don't either. But man, it's so good for sales. Because last time he's like, dave, you're wearing piss stained glasses. And I don't like something you said and I just, I just reposted it. And then I ran a coupon code for truedark. Glasses.

[C]

I remember.

[A]

But here's what you don't know. So. Because I ran that and it was sold, like tens of thousands of dollars. So I'm taking the prop from that and I'm donating it in his name, in Lane Norton's name, to a nonprofit for victims of childhood bullying.

[C]

I love it.

[A]

We're just going to say it like it is. So, Lane, if you're listening, and we know you are, and we know your mom's listening too, I just. I just gotta say, man, like, take a deep breath, maybe like, make out with Peter T. Whatever you're into, man, I'm not gonna judge you. Right. Like, you. You are enough. You are enough. I'm sorry.

[C]

No, but there's. I'm glad you brought that up because, you know, I went through that for years when I was doing what I was doing. I had this one side that absolutely loved me. And then I get guys like him.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh, you're not £300. So why are you talking about steroids and how to. How to use them properly and everything? Oh, yeah. Because the guys that are £300, that don't know what they' doing, that just take everything under the sun and that are killing themselves. That's who you want to listen to?

[A]

Yeah. You can really harm yourself. And I'll just say, if you're angry all the time, either you have an imbalance in your biochemistry, it could be too much tea, could be a bunch of other stuff, neurotransmitters. Or you just have a lot of childhood trauma and they're both imminently hackable.

[C]

Right.

[A]

So let's assume there's someone listening to the show. Like I research. They don't know what we're talking about yet. So completely unknown. Let's say that this is someone between 40 and 60. And I want an answer for women and I want answer for men that are different.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

Okay, what are the two research chemicals that are most likely to make them lose fat and gain muscle?

[C]

I'll tell you where I like is S4, because men and women can both use it. And it has this really nice effect of muscle hardening, which I'm all about the aesthetics. Right. And lean muscle gain, little suppression for men. Women don't have to worry.

[A]

Suppression of testosterone.

[C]

Yes, exactly. And very few side effects. There's a vision thing that people panic about and it's very simple to overcome. So what happens is, is let's say you use 50 milligrams of S4 standard dose. Yeah. Yeah. You can take it either Capsule or like the liquid.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And so basically if you are in a dark, like the setting we're in now, and you look at this light and then you look, you're gonna see this. Hello. Flashing. I thought it was great when I was driving a car the first time and I saw it, I was living in Maui and they had these non lighted streets and I was like, oh, this is crazy. You know, I feel so. It's not so bad, but other than that, very little side effects. And, and the muscle hardening, it blew me away because I'm already pretty vascular. But I was seeing veins across like a robot around my abs.

[A]

I've never done that. I have some ab veins most of the time, but like, yeah, they're a little bit lower down. But if you're getting upper ab veins. That's insane.

[C]

It was insane.

[A]

What's your body fat percentage?

[C]

Right now? I'm about 7.2 last time I checked. I stay pretty, 6 to 8 range, but it gets too low. It's unhealthy.

[A]

Yeah, I was getting down to six and a half. I didn't feel as. No, it was hard. I think I'm around seven and a half right now.

[C]

Probably. No, just seeing this, the skin.

[A]

And I got a lot of extra skin from when I was fat too, so that kind of changes things.

[C]

But you know what I always say, when I looked my best, I felt my worst.

[A]

Every fitness competitor, especially women, says that.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like I, like I have no libido, I'm tired all the time. I anxious all the time, angry all the time. Almost like a vegan. And it's true, though, it's true.

[C]

You know, I didn't ever mean to do vegan. Like, never intended. Like, no fear of, of, of eating animals or anything like that. But I did, looking back on it, I was doing that and I was the most miserable I've ever been in my life.

[A]

Yeah, me too. 18 months of just hell. And first three months I was like, I got the glow and the glows, Anxiety to go hunting and like.

[C]

Oh, but don't you feel like you just. I, for me, I couldn't stay focused on 20 minutes.

[A]

No. It makes you flighty. Yeah. Ungrounded. Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

Just all over the place. I start working and I get up and walk around or do something and go, oh, I don't want to do that.

[A]

Like muscle pain and joint issues. I got autoimmune issues. It was terrible.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

That's why I see these young people who get into biochemy. I'm going to go vegan. I'm like, man, there's no health reason to do it. There's no animal cruelty reason to do it. Because you kill more animals cutting down your weed and soy than you do from eating a cow.

[C]

That's right. Right.

[A]

And there's no environmental reason to it because we need poop as much as we need milk and beef.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

So I'm like, I don't get it, but I did do it, and so I felt for that. And. And you're burning out, like, 10 years of useful life if you don't repair it.

[C]

I agree. And same with, like, the. The protein powders and everything that are pea protein and rice protein. I won't touch them, man.

[A]

You know, I think there's a role for human kibble. Yeah. I love talking to you, man. I'm trying to be polite and all that stuff. I just got, you know, I just got to say, like, it is.

[C]

No, I went. When I rewatch our show, when you came on mine, there are so many things that I rewatch because you have the kind of humor I enjoy. I enjoy that Chevy Chase, 1980s, like, dry humor that you have to be really smart to get.

[A]

Are you just saying I'm old?

[C]

No, no, no, no, no.

[A]

I feel triggered right now. I identify as triggered.

[C]

Actually.

[A]

That's even better. That's what you ident.

[C]

And I, you know, I was laughing here because I. I had a feeling at some point you were going to ask me when I changed from bodybuilding to biohacking. And I was like, I transitioned. And I was like, man, I can't.

[A]

Say I started that clip. That'd be a ringtone you call me. But I got it now. You said I transitioned.

[C]

And I was like, oh, he'll kill me on that one if that comes up.

[A]

When did you move from bodybuilding to biohacking?

[C]

So I was. I got my big opportunity to actually speak with doctors and practitioners at Mr. Olympia two years ago. And what's crazy is I. I actually, I went up there, I tore the house, and I was prepared.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

15 years of preparation. I was prepared. Well, I got asked to co host with Monica Branch. She's a former Miss Olympia. He was being sponsored by Stem regen at the Mr. Olympia. So when I met Christian over there and them, they watched me speak and talk, and we hit it off. So I made all these contacts, I was all excited, went home, got Covid immediately.

[A]

Oh, no. Yeah.

[C]

So I. And I'm a spiritual guy. No, not everybody is that's fine. But I, I'm all very open about that.

[A]

Like, can we judge and shame the non spiritual people?

[C]

We can, sure. I don't know if it goes well.

[A]

With, with the spirituality. I'm just kidding.

[C]

Well, so. Because I went to the gym when I got home because I can't miss a day and I, I got done and I called my wife, I said, I'm going to cvs. Something's wrong, got a COVID test. Anyway, I couldn't get out of bed the next morning. I normally do this woe is me thing when I'm laying there, like, why? And I decided, okay, God, I'm gonna trust you, right? I don't know why. And I'm laying there and I can't move. And I started to look at stem regen on Instagram and then I. That's when I really found you too. Because I was going through all their stuff and I said, I don't. I'd heard biohacking before and I didn't know what the hell it was. And I'll tell you what, three hours of me inundating myself with nothing but info. And I called my wife in and I'll remember this conversation. I get chills and I said, you're gonna have to trust me. I have been, I've been miserable talking of all the stuff I've been doing. I'm unhappy she knows it. I said, we're making a move. This is where I know I'm supposed to be talking about this stuff. And from that moment on I started. I went to Eudaimonia with stem regen and that was my first conference. And from then I started the biohacking type of podcast. And here we are a year later.

[A]

Welcome to the team. Biohacking man.

[C]

It's where it's at.

[A]

It's funny because it's really change the environment around you and inside you so you have control of your state.

[C]

That's it.

[A]

Your body makes less stem cells every year. If you ignore that, you start recovering slower and you age more quickly. And it starts earlier than you think. By your 30s, the number of circulating stem cells you have drops hard. Stem cells handle repair, recovery and tissue renewal. And fewer stem cells means fewer repairs. Maybe you feel like you do everything right, yet soreness lasts longer, injuries linger, and you don't bounce back the way you did in your 20s. STEM regen targets the issue at its source. Every time you take it, it signals your body to release 10 million of your own stem cells into circulation. Stem regen also directly Supports circulation so those cells can actually reach your tissues that are stressed. And these cells are, you know what to do. They respond to damage. They support repair. Stem Regen helps your body do the work that nature designed it to do. And I actually use it and actually send it to my parents. So if recovery and longevity matter to you, act now. Go to stemregen co Dave 30 and they'll give you 30% off your next order.

[B]

Is your cookware actually poisoning your food? Most nonstick pans contain pfas or forever chemicals as they're known. Manufacturers add them so the pans will be slippery. But get this, a recent study found a single scratch on a nonstick pan can release about 9,100 plastic particles. Then you get to eat them and those chemicals don't break down. And your body stores them. And studies show they can contribute to immune problems, insulin resistance, even cancer. A company called Our Place makes high performance toxin free kitchenware and I've been using it for years. Their products have zero forever chemicals like PFAS and ptfes. You can cook amazing food without wondering what's in your pan except for what you're cooking. Their cookware set will upgrade your entire kitchen and your meals. The set includes two multifunctional always pans and two perfect pots in many and full sizes. And those replace a bulky expensive stack of cookware. It's just four pieces and it lets you sear, saute, fry, bake, boil, roast, steam and whatever else you can do with the pan. Our Place designed their products for performance and long lasting quality. And I've been using my frying pan for about six years now and it's still perfect. So stop using toxic cookware and upgrade to Our Place today. Go to fromourplace.com Dave and get 10% off everything. Plus you get a 100 day risk free trial and free shipping and free returns. So you can just give it a try and there's no risk. That's fromourplace.com Dave this upgraded my cooking.

[A]

Bodybuilders are some of the best on earth at changing their state, the mental state. Sometimes you need to do some work. But even guys like Frank Zane came on the show. That guy is a semi enlightened being, like oh yeah, I play the flute for an hour a day just for my interview. I'm like this is the most interesting guy ever. And so like the old school bodybuilders who've lived, most of them have an incredible spiritual practice as well. Because your physical body controls your emotional in your Psychological, even your spiritual body, they're connected.

[C]

You know what I realized is I learned about peptides and SARMS in 2011. I've been doing and tweaking and doing these things to myself forever. It's not polarizing. There's nothing crazy or strange about the term. It's very simple if you just understand what it is.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

And once I, I watched a lot of your stuff and a lot of other things there and I, I listened and I, I told you before the struggles I had with eating and how I was under eating, and I took so many pieces of your diet. I put a little bit of what I was doing. I wrapped it together. And I'm telling you, man, my whole world just opened up, you know, happy.

[A]

That makes me like that. That's why I did it. Because I was feeling the same way. I was wrecked. Yeah. And I just couldn't unpack. It took a long time to make that diet. And it's, it's helped, it's helped a lot of people. And you don't have to. It's not the same for everyone. It's like, do these. For most people, these are suspect. Like, you gotta know if you're nightshade sensitive, you will get arthritis and autoimmunity. So from eating chili, which is my favorite food, and I have the gene, I don't eat chili anymore. It's not that hard. But if I didn't know, I was just in pain all the time.

[C]

And I was, I was reading it and some of the things on there were things, all the things I was eating, and I was like, you know what? I'm just going to do it. And if it doesn't work, I know how to fix it. I know I can go back to living in hell again if I'd like to. And I'm telling you, I went in that kitchen one day because I'm the type of guy where cars just show up. Shit just shows up. My wife is used to it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I walked in there and I said, listen, we're gonna go to Whole Foods today. We're gonna buy all these foods. I said, I didn't like, I didn't even know if I liked them or not. So avocado, salmon, fresh grass fed beef. And now I'm eating every kind of beef under the sun. And like now when we're done, before my flight, I'm going home. I've got avocados ready to, they're chopped. I've got all my stuff cut up. The eggs I eat, I, I was eating 16, 1700 calories a day, like I told you.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

Now I'm doing 3,000.

[A]

Feel so much better, don't you?

[C]

I look better, too. Yeah, but I was eating, like, 20 grams of fat. Now I'm doing 130.

[A]

And you're at least as lean as you were before.

[C]

I'm leaner than I was.

[A]

But fat makes you fat, right? I mean, Lane told me, Right?

[C]

So does a lot of dipshits.

[A]

Yeah. It's just not how it works. And when I was really my heaviest gym rat times, I was my early 20s, I was on a low fat, low calorie diet. 90 minutes in the gym, 6 days a week without fail, even if I was sick. Like, if I could walk, I went.

[C]

To the gym and couldn't lose a pound. Right.

[A]

Couldn't lose pound. And felt like crap and all that stuff. And I just was. What is a calorie measure? Energy.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And you know who's even worse than a lot of men is women. The number of women who are starving from their freaking salads all the time. Like, please eat a steak. And they eat a steak and, like, their eyes light up and, like, oh. And they make, like, happy sounds. And if they do it for a week, they're like, I'm not cold all the time. And I feel so much better. My anxiety is down. And so this, like, fear of being seen eating, we just have to do away with that. Like, eating's a sacred act of nourishing yourself at every level.

[C]

I. You know what? I wouldn't touch a salad if you paid me. I won't even go near them. I don't touch them. And I'm telling you, even arugula, you.

[A]

Want to touch that stuff.

[C]

Well, I'll eat that.

[A]

Arugula and lettuce, I'll touch. But not for nutrition. Just for, like. Oh, that sounds crunchy.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

There's no point to it other than that.

[C]

You know why I get angry now is all the years I missed of cooking in. Yeah. And. And thinking that that was gonna make me fat or gain weight. And I mean, sometimes, I'm not even gonna lie to you, I take a little bite off the stick and just eat it. I mean, I do because it's. I. I miss it, you know? And I literally cannot tell you how much my whole life changed and opened up. It's just insane.

[A]

This makes me so happy because I. All the content. I. If someone had just told me this when I was, like, saved me in dollars, spent two and a half million Dollars on reverse of my age. But the first million was just to get well.

[C]

Right, right.

[A]

And if I'd have just known. So the fact that you could throw the switch that fast.

[C]

I'm that type of guy where if. If I want to do something, I can just do it, but I have to make myself do it. I'm. See, one of. We talked about prison. One of the things in prison is your whole life is based around routine. And I've already been a structured guy my whole life. And so one of the things I'm good about is, okay, when I go on a trip like this, I'll say, well, things have to change. And I do it. And then I go, well, yeah, I just did that and I was fine. And then I'll go home and do it. And then you'd make a new routine. It's very simple. Even if you're structured. You just got to try, you know, And. And we get into our own ways.

[A]

I've.

[C]

I've been a nutritionist 15 years, and I was doing the low fat thing, going against what I was coaching. Wow. Because I'm the exception. That's what I was telling myself. Yeah. Only nobody's the exception.

[A]

Well, I don't know if I agree with you there. Like, you look at these epidemiological curves and they always set stuff for, like, the middle. Yeah. But if you have the weird genetics. There are people who should not be eating more butter.

[C]

True.

[A]

Because of their APO E4 double all that kind of stuff. So eat more olive oil.

[C]

Right.

[A]

People with no gallbladders. But there's always, like, quarter cases. But there is no one who's always the exception.

[C]

That's what, that's. That was my thing. Yeah. Because I. I had myself convinced of that and didn't even try.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I just told myself that you gotta try.

[A]

So many listeners are gonna benefit from that because you know the worst what happens if you've tried something new for a week or two is that it won't work. Yeah.

[C]

Well, that's what I said. I know how to lose weight.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

If it doesn't work, I'll just make it work.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, I'll cut this out. And that's another thing that, that I want to bring up is a lot of times you try to do everything at once, then you don't know what's working and what's not.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, and that was one of the things I dealt with with bodybuilders that wanted to take five things at once. And I'D say, well, then how do we know if something. If you have a bad side effect, I don't know which one it is. Yeah. Because many things have the same kind of problem. So I am. And I'm so dialed in with the diet and everything. I'll put one thing in, see how it works, try it. And then, you know, we're kind of.

[A]

The opposite that way. So when I first started getting really serious about losing the weight and fixing my brain and all this, I did all this research, I fired my doctor who told me that vitamin C would kill me, literally. Palo Alto Medical Foundation. Thanks, guys.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And it turns out, you know, if you're doing 100 grams orally every day, you'll probably get oxalate toxicity after a while. So there are, you know, everything has good and bad, but.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Vitamin C is not going to kill you. At normal doses. I order like 10 supplements. I go, I'm going to try each one for a month. And then I looked at my list of things to try and I looked at number of months in my life. I'm like, I'm not going to even try everything for one month. And so then I just thought about it, like, it's impossible to do that. So I'm going to pick a goal and I'm going to do everything that I can afford all at the same time that logically lines up to reach that goal. And once I reach the goal, then I'm going to take some things out. Because usually life is a recipe. Yeah, Right. So if you were to take this approach of, I'm gonna try one thing at a time, like, I'm gonna invent bread. I baked the water, I baked the yeast, I baked the flour. Ah. There's no such thing as bread. So sometimes you gotta fix your thyroid and your testosterone at the same time to get results.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So my approach is, you know what if you wanna get a goal and you're not a research scientist trying to isolate variables, effects, who cares? Do all of it. You. All of it this month. And you set aside $500 or whatever your budget is, like, I'm going to go in, and at the end of the month, my brain is so good, my eyes are shining, my skin is better, I've lost 20 pounds and something in there is working right. And then, okay, next month, only do half of it. And this is my computer science mind. It's like bubble sorting is what we call that. So the thing is, though, getting the results without undue risk is the goal. Not figuring out which One it is. Yeah. Because I have the most expensive pee on the planet right now. I'm pretty sure my plants love it. It's fine.

[C]

I love it. You know, I did that when I found out that I had plaque in my arteries. I did everything. Yeah, everything.

[A]

That. That's interesting. And did it work?

[C]

To a point. But then I started to get some higher liver values from all the niacin, for example, and I knew it. And I cut it out. And then I started just taking minus and some things out. And then I found what really worked together for me personally that wasn't causing me heart palpitations or making me, like, not sleep, for example.

[A]

So soft plaque or hard plaque?

[C]

Hard.

[A]

Okay. So you're a calcified plaque.

[C]

Calcified.

[A]

That's actually less dangerous than soft.

[C]

Absolutely. Absolutely.

[A]

And you got that down.

[C]

I have what I feel is pretty reversed it now because I went in. I. I had the calcium score first. Step one.

[A]

What was your score?

[C]

120.

[A]

Oh, dude.

[C]

Freaked me out. Then I found out I had extremely high LP. 330.

[A]

It's very high, too.

[C]

Hacked that down to 90, which I was told was impossible. Long story short, I went to Mayo Clinic.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Supposed to be the best of the best of the best, which was what I was told. And I went in there with the idea that I wanted to use Repatha PCSK9 inhibitor. I wanted to use Vascepa, and I did not want to use a statin. And they told me that prescribing a PCSK9 using Vascepa was bad practice. This was their words. And that using a statin, which I know will increase my lp.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I'll. I'll leave the other stuff out right now. That's what they wanted me to do. There wasn't enough research on lp, which I found crazy because I had inundated myself with research. So I got in a fight with my mom and my wife on the way home. And I said, who are you two? You're listening to these morons. I'm going to do what I want to do. That was the start. I did the niacin for quite a while, but that started to make me feel not so good. But it did drop my lp. I was doing rams of flush knives a lot of nice. And yeah, it's too much, but pomegranate juice is another one that can reverse plaque. And anyway, I had a different episode of, like, high heart palpitations, which I panicked, which I think was due to loss of electrolytes.

[A]

Yeah, most likely.

[C]

And I went in and they did the catheter up my arm because I had a CT angio that said 35% blockage. Well then this was a year later. And he said, I don't see any plaque in there. You have no blockage of any kind. And I was like, okay. Well then I found I had a low ejection fraction, which bad may have been due to the eight times I've had Covid.

[A]

And let's explain that for people. So ejection fraction is how much blood can your heart move in one pump?

[C]

Yep.

[A]

And healthy, strong young animals and go from chill to in one heartbeat, slam that blood through. But people who do chronic cardio exercise, they train their hearts to actually be weaker by having a small ejection fraction. So I have a very large ejection fraction.

[C]

My cardio of 90 to 120 minutes a day for 20 years. Yeah. Probably hurt that. So what happened was I got put on Jardiance and I was put on Entresto, which is a bad move considering my normal blood pressure is like 96 over 62.

[A]

Oh, you're a low blood pressure guy. Yeah, yeah. That's gonna mess you up. That's why your heart was racing too. Yeah.

[C]

So I stopped that anyway within three months of Jardiance at a low dose deribose pattern, high dose ubiquinol, which I came up with, I went from 44 to 50.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I have to go back in again now. So 55, 70 is normal, as you know. I want to be hopefully in that 55, 60.

[A]

Which, which metric? 55 70.

[C]

55 to 70.

[A]

On your ejection fraction.

[C]

Yeah, ejection fraction. Yeah. And so I went from 44 to 50 in three months. So good. I've cut. I didn't realize I was training in zone four so long for so many years.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Bad.

[A]

Yeah. I used to do long distance cycling when I was overweight and I even did a couple races. And it's not really a great idea to race when you weigh, you know, 280 pounds, because somehow going up the hills is not easy. But it was, it was not a productive thing to do.

[C]

No.

[A]

And, and I've, I'm a big fan. First of high intensity interval training. 15 years ago, I'm like, this is better. And now I, I just see rehab and I've never been healthier.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So that's something that, that for, for listeners, there are a class of like 1970s researchers and even some longevity doctors. They're like, zone two is where it's at, you got to do zone two, eight hours, eight hours a week. I have teenage kids, I have nine companies, I have this podcast and I have friends. I'm not doing eight hours of Zone two. That's insane, right? You could also like fast in a monastery for three weeks, a month or something. It's not going to happen for the vast majority of people now it's difficult. So you got to find out how to do it in a meaningful amount of time.

[C]

You know, how do you. I have found and I used to just frown upon it. I walk on my non workout days, I do four or five miles of walking every day. And my workout days I do three. I do it every morning and then after I eat, I, I go bike about 10, 15 minutes to move. I have found that to be more productive for me because I don't know, you do feel heavy after you, right after you eat, you walk. And so I do the biking and I do it steady, not, I'm not racing, just on the path, enjoy the scenery. I'm by mountains now and just feel free, clear my head, say some prayers, come home, get right back to work.

[A]

Yeah, we call that movement. Yeah. So good for you. And sunshine too, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You're doing it without sunglasses, I'm guessing.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Good deal. Yeah, that circadian exposure too.

[C]

Yeah, I, I listen and every time I give a talk, I preface it. I'm not saying do three hours in the sun because people freak out about the sun. You gotta have the sun.

[A]

The sun is one of the most underrated nutrients there is. One of the reasons I moved to Austin from Canada, I, I just, I'm not feeling good and I came down and I got much healthier. And some people say, oh, you get all the vitamin D you need from the sunshine. What's your take on that?

[C]

I think you get a good amount. But I still, you know, I, I like to supplement and eat good foods and everything. I think you get a good majority though from the sun. I think without it is the problem.

[A]

Well, if you're taking vitamin D, you still need sunshine or at least UVB to activate it. Yeah. And I, I did a test a while ago. I lived in Hawaii for six weeks and I said, I'm going to quit taking vitamin D. I'm going to get my three hours a day in the sun. You know, I got some sun damage from it. I had a great tan and you did all the. I actually never burned because I know how to eat right. But I did just get some sun Damage from it. And I measured my levels, there were 36.

[C]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. I also have genetics where I don't hold on to vitamin D and I use it real quickly and so there is no way I'm going to get it up there without self moons and sunshine.

[C]

Yeah, I agree. I lived in Maui. Yeah. When I got out of prison, I got sent to Maui because my parents live there.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And I took manan too.

[A]

I love that stuff.

[C]

Dude, I was so dark. I was embarrassed because you take it and then you go sit. You're supposed to go out in the sun a little bit. Not in Maui, man. Bad idea. Bad idea. I was so ashamed of how dark I got. I had to stay home a couple days and get off of it.

[A]

Cuz you're like too tan.

[C]

It was, it was really bad, man. My wife's from the Philippines and I was way darker than her because I met her.

[A]

That's funny. So you were. You're really dark.

[C]

It was embarrassing.

[A]

So Milano tan is a peptide you can take that stimulates melanin in. In your skin. And it's really good if you just do one or two courses. Beginning of summer because now you have built in sunscreen. But last time I used the round of it was at Burning man. So. Oh, I just injected in the morning and walked around naked for an hour. And out of 10 for the rest of the week. It was great.

[C]

Increase in libido.

[A]

No tan lines.

[C]

Yes. And the libido increase was pretty damn sweet on that too.

[A]

So let's talk about that for listeners. So Melanotan has a side chain called PT141 which you can buy separately.

[C]

Right.

[A]

You take Melanotan or. Studies also show if you just sunbathe, it makes you horny, it releases nitric oxide. But there's a libido that's separate from nitric oxide. So you do Melanotan. And I remember like when I was 19.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh. Like, yeah, that, that, that is noticeable.

[C]

And at the time there wasn't a ton of literature on that part of it. And so it caught me. I. I read it, but it was not really talked about. And I was like, okay. Yes. Okay, this is amazing. And I was pretty, What? I was 30 at the time.

[A]

You just got out of prison?

[C]

Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. So I was like, okay, this is great. But you know what, Dave? I tried it three different times.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

Different companies. And I know it was good lowest dose. And I couldn't take the nausea. For me, it made me too nauseous.

[A]

Some people get that.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And Melanotan one probably has better cognitive benefits. It doesn't darken as much as well, so that might be a better one. And you're talking about you tried melanotan or PT1 for one.

[C]

Melanitan. Yeah.

[A]

And some people get nausea from PT1 for one. So you titrate the dose down.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And there's other libido hacks that are out there I've talked about in other episodes.

[C]

I took it right before bed to try to help with the thing, and it just made it just as bad. I would get so sick.

[A]

And not only that, Melanotans a circadian hormone. You take it in the morning or maybe at noon.

[C]

I know.

[A]

And you take it at night. You're telling yourself to stay awake, and you're going to be pitching a tent all night long. You're not going to sleep at all. You can't even roll over without breaking something.

[C]

But there was, like I said it was at that time, it was like that was more of a trial and error time of stuff. And knowing what I know now, I was like, man, everything I was doing was backwards.

[A]

Oh, this is so funny.

[C]

Yeah. But it was really, really. There was, like, seven peptides you could choose from at the time. Yeah, it was. It. And it was really just GH, GHRHs and. And like, so ipomerellin, hexarelin, sermorelin, CJC, and melanitan. There really wasn't anything. Now there's thousands.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

And I'll talk about a couple. And then I want to know your favorites.

[A]

Yeah. Tell me about your newest ones.

[C]

So my favorites is mot, C, apv. I like C, Max, and Celan. I'm a. I'm really kind of gotten more into the understanding of the importance of the neurological side.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I've really done more of mind body connection. That's thanks to Dr. Dave Rape. And he's my boy. Yeah.

[A]

I'm an advisor to Apollo Neuro. Yeah. I love Dave.

[C]

Yeah. And so you don't know this. I'm on the advisory board now, too, with Dr. Dave.

[A]

All right.

[C]

That's right. That's why I'm wearing this right here. But he taught me a ton. And I put together that understanding now of how important the mind is to actually affect our fitness and our health. And honestly, I put that higher understanding now how drastic, like, my anxiety was and the stress and what everybody else goes through now. And piecing that together, I feel, has made me a more complete knowledge base for others to help stimulate Myself, and I'm sure you would agree on the neuro side, it's incredible.

[A]

It's really funny. Some doctors will talk about muscle mass is the most important thing in VO2 max. You know what I'm talking about?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

So here's the thing, though. Studies actually collate with muscle strength more than muscle mass, which is based on neural drive. You look at the Shaolin monks who are doing these incredible feats that you can't do, or. I forget his name. Who's the guy who goes to gyms and looks like he's a janitor.

[C]

Oh, shit. I don't know his name, but I love his videos.

[A]

He's. He's great. I'm forgetting. It's.

[C]

I'm drawing a blank. But I want to call him Pavel.

[A]

But that's not his name.

[C]

No, but I see. I see his videos.

[A]

So there are these guys who are massively stronger than people with twice the muscle mass. Like, that's interesting. So it turns out strength is more important than mass, but you want a good amount of mass. Yeah, that's important. And that's because of neurological health and because of mind body integration, which is just terribly important. And then on the VO2 Max side, it turns out all of the studies that measured VO2 max were not actually measuring VO2 max. They're inferring it with a broken algorithm. So the data's all junk, but you can still stand there and say, you know, I'm a longevity doctor who says, you can't live longer. You should do a lot of VO2 max training based on studies that aren't real. And you should have a lot of muscle mass, ignoring strength. And I don't think that's how it works for longevity. I really don't. And I could be wrong and I'm willing to be proven wrong, but I.

[C]

Find that, look, there's no doubt the importance of muscle and sarcopenia is a very real thing, but getting too big for too long is very unhealthy. It's too much strain and stress on your heart, ligaments, joints. Like you were talking about earlier. There's a fine line.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And. And I think a lot of, like the bodybuilders especially, they don't have any concept of that long term. All they care about is getting big right now. They don't worry about tomorrow or the future. And carrying too much weight for too long and eating too much.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Is not good. It's not.

[A]

No. It's actually bad for you. And even when I was stress testing the the bulletproof diet. Before I wrote the book, I went 4, 500 calories a day.

[C]

That's high.

[A]

And I cut my sleep to usually under four hours a night. I'm like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna gain, like, 3 pounds, but the calorie math is gonna say 20 pounds. And I actually got leaner and I felt better, and I. I just kept going for, like, a year. It was not good for me from the longevity perspective, but, like, I can do this. I'm kind of liking it. Except I just got tired of just forcing myself to eat more steak and butter.

[C]

It's hard to, like, once you get over a certain point, man. It's, like, forceful.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Eat that much?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You can smoke pot all night and make yourself as hungry as you want. It's still hard.

[A]

They just. It. It's like you just don't want to do it. So.

[C]

No. I found for me, like, that 3,000 range, even though I'm on paper, it says to eat like 3, 600 to maintain for my output, I can't do much more than 3,000. Yeah. It's hard. And then it's not good. It doesn't feel good. You feel heavy and.

[A]

Yeah. You know, and overeating. Any kind of calories, even relatively good ones. Actually, I've never seen a paper that says that makes it by type of calorie. But we just know overeating in general is not good for longevity. Right. But also, undereating isn't good either, unless you're one of those, like, I eat 35 less calories than I need, and I'm miserable all the time. I don't think that's a good plan either.

[C]

No, I know. It's funny because when we were talking about the fat, you know, does it make you fat and everything? If I was to tell you the five foods I can't live without, they're all, like, higher fat.

[A]

I. I have eaten unlimited fat. I eat butter, I eat sheep's cheese and sheep yogurt, and I eat tallow, and I eat 2 ounces max of olive oil every day. And I've done that for 15 years.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

And my blood is just fine.

[C]

Yeah. My HDL went up 40 points. 40.

[A]

The protective cholesterol. Yeah.

[C]

Who would have thought?

[A]

And your. Your testosterone went up, too.

[C]

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I'm on ert, but, you know, it's still. It's. Last time I checked it, I was like, what happened here? It was way too high. And I take it, like, 100 milligrams a week. And I was like, well over a thousand. And Normally I'm like 7, 800 right around there.

[A]

There's nothing wrong with being a little over a thousand.

[C]

No. But I, I was like, whoa, what happened here? I just got prescribed Kaiser trucks. I'm gonna try and see how that goes. But I have waited about a year now to see research and data on it. But I, I'm sick of injecting now for so many years, so I'm gonna give it a shot.

[A]

I've been on Kaisershocks for the last 18 months.

[C]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. And guys, that whole episode. Daveasprey.com testosterone, I don't tell you about it. Yeah. And, and here's the deal. I've been injecting testosterone since I was 26 years old. Because at 26, my longevity doc is the only one in the Bay Area was like, dave, I hate to tell you this. Your testosterone is lower than your mom's. And my mom was his patient. And, well, that would explain why I'm really fat. And there's toxic mold involved and sleep disruption, all kinds of stuff. So I went on it under a doctor's care and not physio, not above physiological. And I've been on it most of the time. I went on for a couple years when I was developing the bulletproof diet. And I could get myself up to 700 if I did everything right. But for me, a thousand is the right number.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And guys need to understand this. There is no right number. Your range could be anywhere from like maybe 500 all the way up to 1500. And that might just be your normal.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And unless you're really healthy as an 18 year old and you measure the numbers, you're never gonna know. So you kind of have to see, how do I feel on these?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And the reason this new oral testosterone is interesting is if you inject testosterone, what is the side effect?

[C]

Well, high estrogen, for one. You're gonna crush your FSH and LH0 gone. So that's going to be a problem. You, if you do too much, there's potential heart risk. I mean, you got to go heavy on it, but that's definitely a problem. But when you shut down that LH and fsh, that's a lot of the reason for the fertility issues. But there's. I see high blood pressure, I've seen it all.

[A]

And you know, the one thing you did mention is your balls shrink.

[C]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[A]

And that's because the LH and FSH get suppressed when you inject testosterone. So, guys, I'm just going to tell you. I have as I had small balls, right. And it turns out they're harder to kick. I don't know why it matters, except you need to have LH and fsh.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

So most guys who go on testosterone experience ball shrinkage unless you take the things that block that effect. And there's lots of ways to do it with pharmaceuticals or natural substances by switching from injectable testosterone. And I've injected it so many times in the general, the same spot that when you do an ultrasound, you actually see fascial disruption from, you know, 500 needle punctures into the muscle.

[C]

Right.

[A]

So I can do better. So Kaisertrex is this oral form and you take it and it doesn't cause ball shrinkage, but. And you get a brief peak every day when you and I were injecting once a week, you get a big spike and then it goes down. But testosterone's also circadian. That's right. So I think it works really well. I, I notice it and you know the cool thing about having an oral testosterone pill? If it's date night, like, I'll just have an extra. Yeah. And then it hits you. And I don't know, I forget it's an hour or two. You're like, all right, I'm at my high testosterone right when I needed it most.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

And it just, it's, it's just another thing in my supplement stack now. It's a lot less work than traveling needles and all that crap.

[C]

Oh, I hate. No, I, I put myself on it like a. Which I don't ever advise, but I did exactly what I don't advise you do to advise. Yeah, I, I, I started it because I ran steroids, and then instead of running a post cycle, I just stayed on it. I've been doing that for, let's see, 12 years now. Like that. And then I found out about Kaisertrex. Right. When it was coming out. Yeah, before it came out. And then I, I just talked to Shailen Shaw about it several times.

[A]

So. A couple times.

[C]

Yeah. And he's great. And he said, I'm gonna get you on it. You try it and let me know. And I just got it. And I'm, I'm giving that a whirl now.

[A]

It's funny, people have a lot of judgment about testosterone, even though it lowers all cause mortality.

[C]

I know.

[A]

And to have adequate testosterone and just about no one alive has adequate testosterone because of the stuff we did. To the environment because of lighting systems. So like, if you want to show up in your life, testosterone drives dopamine. Dopamine drives motivation to do things that matter. It's important on your workouts, work better. This seems like a low pain way to do it without the downside of the way I did it before. Yeah. And there's someone else. I'm just going to say this right now. If you're 19 or 29 and you have no money, that's actually how it was when I was 19 to 29. Actually, no. I made $6 million at 26. I just lost it when I was 28. So by the time I was 29, I had no money. So I had a brief period of wealth in there. But the bottom line is, you know, when I was 22, I was sharing a one bedroom apartment in a slum.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

Trying to pay for college.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And I welded Toyota truck frames and scooped Baskin Robbins ice cream and did all the stuff, Right. If you run an at home lab test, right. And there's plenty of those online. One of my companies does it, Axo Health, but you can get those anywhere and it's going to cost you a couple hundred bucks and your testosterone levels are really low. Do the biohacking stuff to raise your levels. If they don't go up, There is nothing wrong morally with you deciding to treat yourself like you don't need a permission slip from your government, your insurance company, your doctor, from God, from anyone. You get to do that. And if you put yourself on it, don't be an idiot. Right. Do the work. And I would prefer you see a doctor. And if you don't have the money for a doctor, I would prefer that you be healthy. And that's the world we live in right now. And it's okay to say, you know what, I did all my research, I asked a bunch of people, I did the best diligence I was capable of and I ordered this drug from India and it cost me $32, would have cost me $600 by the time I went to my doctor, which I don't have covered by insurance and blah, blah, blah. No, you gotta live. And just sometimes people do that and it's okay and it's not as good as going to a doctor. And maybe we'll build a system where healthcare becomes affordable again.

[C]

Yeah, maybe.

[A]

Yeah. And you don't have to beg for permission to get what you're gonna get anyway.

[C]

You know, my health insurance went from, for me and my wife on a company thing from twelve hundred dollars to eighteen something in this. This trans. This transitional year here. And it was a little bit lesser of a plan.

[A]

That's a house payment. I know in a lot of the country it is.

[C]

Yeah, it. Absolutely.

[A]

And what value do you get from it? I will tell you, if they say bill insurance, I'm like, no, I'm just paying.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And most of the doctors that I see and I A partner in a medical thing, but none of them take insurance anymore because insurance companies are useless.

[C]

I know.

[A]

Unless you have a massive car accident, it's useful. So I oftentimes advise people, you know what, don't be like, oh, I can't get it. Because it's not. No, that's not how it works. Just buy catastrophic healthcare insurance and everything else. Put it in your FSA and fha. Yeah.

[C]

One other thing I was going to say about the testosterone. So I will get this concept of it's cheating now. That's whether it's an athlete or for whatever the case. And I say it's cheating to put yourself at the level you're supposed to be at so you can actually be who you're supposed to be. Tell me how that's cheating. To make yourself perform how you're supposed to perform. So really all I'm doing is putting myself at the state I'm supposed to be at. So it's cheating how?

[A]

The idea of cheating is absurd.

[C]

I agree.

[A]

You know what always makes me mad? The people who talk most about cheating, they actually drive to the studio to talk about that.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

They're using a car and they should be walking.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Like, seriously, the car is cheating. Oh, and so are the shoes. So take those off. Oh, my God. You mean we use technology to make life better. There's no such thing as cheating. Everything we are doing right now, including broadcasting this live, so people don't have to fly here and drive here to hear us.

[C]

Right. Is cheating. Exactly.

[A]

So stop it. We're talking about effectiveness. We're talking about efficiency, we're talking about quality of life. And if you want to put shame and guilt on that, get a therapist. Is not okay.

[C]

I just don't need anybody ever telling me what is what and what is not what. Like that when I'm trying to take care of myself. Yeah, I don't need that.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And just straight up, yeah, guys, I'm cheating. I'm cheating every which way I can.

[C]

Right.

[A]

I do everything to make my body healthier, my mind healthier. I use neurofeedback instead of Meditating because it's more effective per minute. I use breath work instead of meditating or with meditation because it works better.

[C]

Yeah, right.

[A]

And I use performance enhancers because I like to perform well.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

It's okay. And I use ones that I don't use. Adderall. Stuff's terrible for you. I don't use cannabis. I drink like once or twice a year if it's older than me, because it's not good for you. But there's. I'm on modafinil right now. I've been on modafinil for 25 years. Every day. Almost every day anyway. About 100 milligrams, sometimes 50.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And you know what? It is one of the most effective and studied pharmaceuticals for cognitive function. And I have no problems talking about it. And if you think I'm cheating, that's because you're losing. Maybe you've tried Efnil.

[C]

Well. And just because some doctor tells you that this is what you're supposed to take, if you look into it and you find yourself getting worse off when you're taking it and you got to take more to compensate for that. To compensate for that. To compensate for that. I ask you, does that sound correct? How does that sound? Right? That you have to take this to offset this? To offset this. To offset this. Next thing you know, you're on 35 different medications.

[A]

I know how to fix that. Let's mandate that people be forced to use medications so they don't have any choice at all. That's a good idea. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[C]

No, I spit in the face of that. Literally.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, that's. That's why we do what we do.

[A]

It's exactly why we do what we do. And I will not ask for a permission slip. No me to take care of myself. Me either. It's a fundamental innate right. And it's funny. Benjamin Rush, one of the. The fathers of the founding fathers on the Constitution, he was like, guys, if we do not put something in the Constitution about the right to medical autonomy, that we will have medical tyranny in the country. And that happened.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

And there's even a Broadway play about it. But, man, like, we could just do that right now. And I almost feel like there might be enough after all this Covid nonsense, there might be enough press. There'll be some people still wearing masks with blue hair who are angry about that, but they're going to be angry anyway. Who cares?

[C]

I was on the plane and this lady was sitting thing next to Me with her mask on and then takes it off to start eating. And all I could think about was, you know, Covid just stopped working and it stopped moving around. When you decided to eat, you know, you could sit down and you could eat now. It was all good. But as soon as you put that mask back on, you're safe again.

[A]

It was probably a bag of chips, right?

[C]

Oh, that's. That was the thing. I actually, I was. I had the Internet hooked up and I was texting my wife and I said, this woman is eating dog next to me, thinking she's protecting herself, she's feeding herself. All of this toxic crap that they hand out to you and then breathing in all the air that everybody else is when she takes it off to do it. I can't believe. And I could never wrap my head around how many people just fell in line with that and acted like that was sensical, like that was okay. I just am lost. And then when. Like when, when the curfews would come in because Covid just, you know, it. It only goes at 9 o' clock at night or whatever they were doing. You know, I. I just. I can't wrap my head around any of that.

[A]

And Fauci admitted he made up the six foot thing. Yeah. And I still see signs about that somewhere. I take him down when I see him, but I'm like, he admitted that and he's not in jail. What happened to that guy?

[C]

I am so lost. Yeah, I am so lost. I can't wrap my head around a half of it.

[A]

The bottom line is, if you want to live a long time, you want to feel really good, you're not the most profitable consumer, so you got to do that work for yourself. And there are plenty of physicians, a lot of functional medicine.

[C]

That's right. They're.

[A]

They're down to help. And there's guys like you and me, and we'll share what we know. We're not doctors. You don't need to be a doctor to manage your own health. In fact, the vast majority of this is lifestyle. There's some tech you can use. You got your Apollo Neuro on. Mine's charging right now. Sorry, Dave. And that's just. That's how it is. And. And yeah, there might be some pharmaceuticals, there might be some whatevers, but nobody gets to tell you that's the most important thing.

[C]

I agree 100%. And that's why we do what we do. And I always tell people, if you disagree, go do all of the shit that you want to do take all the vaccines. Take whatever you want, but don't mind me, because when I'm healthy and I'm living happy, I'm going to tell you what I do, and you can take it for what it's worth, one way or another, and that's it.

[A]

And the reality is, if you can tell me what I have to do, then I can tell you what you have to do and you can pound sand with your face. So let's not go there. Right, because the sand is going to hurt and I'm not going to eat kibble. It's just not going to happen.

[C]

No, no, no, no. And. And it's a. It is so nice to know, like, when I found you, that people like you were there that I could look at and go, okay, they got it. And I know I'm not nuts by any stretch of the imagination.

[A]

We just needed a name for what we do so we could have community.

[C]

That's it.

[A]

That's why the. That's why I do the biohacking conference in our 13th year now. 5,000 people beyond biohacking dot com. I'll see you there for sure.

[C]

Favorite event of the year.

[A]

Man, it is so good.

[C]

Now, I did a mini documentary of going through their last year. I have online. It was the a. It's such a phenomenal time. And you know what I love about it is there's so many people in there, even with differing opinions that are there for the same reason.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

To. To fix ourselves and help others do the same.

[A]

Yeah. And like, like you can be carnivore. I don't think it's gonna work long term.

[C]

No.

[A]

You can be vegan and come and it. We might not have food for you, but that's your problem. You're not eating food anyway. But you know that. That's just how it's like. Everyone's welcome and, and you don't have to agree. And that is one of the spaces where I don't care about your politics, I don't care about your. Your nutritional stuff, as long as it's working for you. And then we can be curious about each other.

[C]

And I just like to learn from people even with the most complex or differing opinion, because then I either learn something to try or I say, man, I, I know what not to do. But you're still learning something.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, and it's, it's a beautiful thing and what you do and the things that you've done over all the years and you know, people take their opinions however they want. But I can tell you this, for me, and from people like me that came in, it's beyond appreciative, and you help shape a lot of the things that I do. Oh, man.

[A]

Thank you.

[C]

Yeah. And it, It's. It's something that I always come back to, and then I, I take what you've done, try to mix it with what I've done, come up with the greatest things possible. You've done massive, and you still do. And, and it's. For me, coming from where I came from, it really helped me to grow in a variety of ways.

[A]

That's. That's what I'm here to do. And it's a movement, and we're all evolving it together. And I, I'm. I'm grateful to be able to. To lead it, but I. I don't own the word biohacking. I didn't trademark it on purpose because that was for all of us. Yeah, we needed a name for. For what we do, and now we have a tribe.

[C]

Well, just know just from somebody like me, the. The amount of effect, it doesn't end, you know, it only gets bigger. And it's helped me to get my knowledge base bigger, to help my audience and to keep sharing it, and that's. That's what it's all about.

[A]

I appreciate you, man.

[C]

Thank you so much. Absolutely.

[A]

And they can find you on Instagram at Dylan Jameli. Is it Jameli? Yeah. Dylan Jameli. Biohacking is the name of your Instagram. So, guys, make sure you give them a follow and appreciate it. I appreciate you.

[C]

Thanks, brother.

[A]

See you next time on the Human Upgrade Podcast.

[D]

A Human Upgrade, formerly Bulletproof Radio, was created and is hosted by Dave Asprey. The information contained in this podcast is provided for informational purposes only and is not intended for the purposes of diagnosing, treating, curing, or preventing any disease. Before using any products referenced on the podcast, consult with your healthcare provider carefully read all labels and heed all directions and cautions that accompany the products. Information found or received through the podcast should not be used in place of. Of a consultation or advice from a healthcare provider. If you suspect you have a medical problem or should you have any healthcare questions, please promptly call or see your healthcare provider. This podcast, including Dave Asprey and the producers, disclaim responsibility for any possible adverse effects from the use of information contained herein. Opinions of guests are their own, and this podcast does not endorse or accept responsibility for statements made by guests. This podcast does not make any representations or warranties about guest qualifications or credibility. This podcast may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products or services. Individuals on this podcast may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to herein. This podcast is owned by Bulletproof Media.