C (1:49)

Brown'S sideline reading session. A moment that lit up sports media everywhere.

A (1:53)

Today, Jim breaks down the exact brain hack world class athletes use to master stress under the highest pressure.

B (2:01)

You're listening to the human upgrade with Dave Asprey.

A (2:08)

You say pressure can be turned into purpose. Is this biological or behavioral?

C (2:14)

Thank you Dave, great question. So I think what you're saying is we want to have our, our responses to be powerful and not reacting emotionally like you talk about. You talk about the. If you have triggers, it's like walking around with a loaded gun, right? And I love that chapter in your, in your book. Heavily meditated because we talk about that too in Inner Excellence. And so what I want for myself and for you and everyone that I work with or reads inner excellence is that when you're squeezed, when you're under pressure, that inner peace comes out. And so when I talk about mental toughness, the first thing I think about is, why are you doing all this? Like, why are you performing? What is it for? Because if you don't have a solid reason beyond the result now, it's just the result. And mental toughness is really hard when. When you're. The greatest thing that you want is just to win, when it's not in your control. And so we need something bigger than that. And so, so the power behind mental toughness is your mindset of what are you pursuing. And so for inner excellence, the. The mindset is I compete to raise the level of excellence in my life, to learn and grow in order to raise it in others. And so that's a completely different mindset than Western culture, which is the opponent is the enemy. I just got to win, got to kick some butt, and that's all I got to do. But there's too much out of your control to give yourself that peace and confidence when there's. When you're under that much pressure.

A (3:45)

So for you, it's, I want to experience the pressure, and that helps me become better, which helps other people become better. So you have strong purpose. A lot of the people who would identify as the mentally toughest people, it feels like they're still trying to prove something to the bullies in seventh grade. How do you get over that?

C (4:03)

So by the time you become an adult, we have a subconscious mind that's meant to protect you and to line up your results and circumstances with your beliefs. And so by the time you become an adult, you've had these traumatic experiences, these embarrassments or whatever. And since your subconscious mind is meant to protect you, it's always on the lookout in every situation for anything that could be a threat.

A (4:24)

Right.

C (4:25)

And so one thing that I always tell my clients is that imagine that you've performed under press shirt 100 times and 95. So you felt nervous 100 times and 95 you performed amazing, and five, you didn't. So what is your subconscious going to remember? It's five. Because it's not there to. To protect you from good memories. If it felt great, your subconscious gives it a pass. But if it was embarrassing, hurtful in any way, subconscious is like, okay, I got to remember that for Dave for next time, and so it'll remind you. So then, so what we do with that information is like, okay, I'm nervous. I got a big event. I'M nervous. Well, my subconscious is going to say, oh, this is bad. This is the bad one. But remember, it's going to tell you that because they feel exactly the same. When you've performed amazing and you perform not so good, the nerves are going to feel identical. It's what do you do with that? And being willing to have those feelings is crucial.

A (5:22)

You've struck a big chord with professional athletes. What's the thing that makes the biggest difference for them?

C (5:28)

Western culture is obsessed about results. And like you talk a lot about is ego mastery. And similar to inner excellence. Inner excellence is about pursuing the best possible life. And when we. When we obsess about something that we want and can't control, it brings us fear. And so we need to have something greater than the result to pursue.

A (5:49)

I have worked with so many people who are saying, I don't know my purpose, I don't know my mission. They feel kind of lost. How do you help people connect with that?

C (5:58)

Yeah. So there's some questions that we start off with right away. And the first one is, how do you want to feel? Say you're a baseball player on and off the field. It doesn't. Or when you're at work, and when you're not at work, how do you want to feel?

A (6:09)

So it's how you want to feel. Okay, I've not heard that before. That's cool.

C (6:12)

Yeah, we start with how you want to feel because that's anyone you know, any pro athlete, any performer, really, anybody, when you're at your best, and if you're not an athlete, I just say, okay, when you've felt the best, what does it feel like? And usually it's pretty similar, right. I feel peace, I feel confident, I'm excited, I feel some. Maybe some sense of joy, this. Maybe there's some contentment, whatever it is, freedom. And then I want to know how you don't want to feel. Because we're going to start to develop habits of thought and action around getting you the feeling that you want. So you can get into this flow and understand when I'm getting into it and when I'm getting away from it. And so how you don't want to feel, usually very similar as well. I don't want to feel fear, I don't want to feel anxious, I don't feel loss, stress, et cetera. So we start with how you want to feel, and then we think about how do I want to live? Meaning how do I want to handle adversity? All the things that I can't control in life and who do I want to become and what do I value most? And we start to put that all into one sentence.

A (7:06)

This is for athletics. You're doing this for everybody.

C (7:08)

Yeah. And so if you want to maximize your performance as an athlete, it's the same as a person. And this is what I, you know, five years of full time writing and researching for inner excellence in the desert. Well, two and a half years in the desert was, was understanding that if you want to win an Olympic gold medal or be world number one, it's the exact same training as anybody. It's human optimization what you do.

A (7:27)

You have a great story about how inner excellence came to be known. What happened?

C (7:31)

Yeah, so I was a pro baseball player and got injured and had to retire in my 20s and devastated. It was completely my, my whole identity. And so when I lost it, I felt like I lost everything. Driving a truck for FedEx Downtown Seattle, get us to coach a high school baseball team. Had no interest, just never considered it. And I just said, what the heck, I'll do it. And then we went undefeated. It just had so much fun. And I was like, oh, kind of like you very kind of have this maybe obsessive mindset of like what's possible. And I was like, okay, well how do I go from coaching 15 year olds to, to managing the Yankees and winning the World Series? And so I came up with this long term plan of getting a master's in phys ed so I can get a job teaching PE Coach the baseball team in high school, win a championship, get a job in university and then in the pros. And, and so I was at UBC in Canada near where you lived on Vancouver island and did my master's in coaching science and I actually got a job at the Texas Rangers two weeks after graduation.

A (8:31)

Wow.

C (8:31)

And so I thought this is, you know, we were able to skip the high school and college route and we got this job right away. So I was like super excited. Dream come true. Now I had some identity again. But I quit six months later in tears that first season. And it was a box that I wasn't fitting into. At the time I thought I was a total failure. Now I realize that God had these plans for me and then, and I realized that. I think you describe yourself as, as a former atheist, now an agnostic scientist, something like that. Is that.

A (9:01)

Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm open to a lot of spiritual things. I, I have direct experiences all the time and don't mean I know all the answers, but yeah, I'm very open to the spirit.

C (9:10)

Yeah. And so I think that's something that would be powerful to talk about, is, is this pursuit of joy that comes from love. And so where was I? So I, I, I, I get this job with the Texas Rangers. I quit six months later in tears, and it just wasn't a good fit for me. And I get asked to coach the South African national team, to be their hitting coach for the 2000 Sydney Olympics.

A (9:30)

Oh, wow.

C (9:31)

And amazing experience. You just got back from Africa. Africa was so, so incredible. And we, we won the Olympic trials. We go to Sydney Olympics and have one of the biggest upset victories in Olympic baseball history. Got to meet Nelson Mandela, March in opening ceremonies. It was amazing. And, and the relationships I still still have to this day from 25 years ago. It was amazing. And so. But after the Olympics, what am I going to do with my life? You know, I kind of burned the bridge of quitting pro baseball in the middle of the season. And then. And then my teammate, Ricky Scruggs in pro baseball, one of my pro baseball teammates calls me and says, I'm starting a baseball academy in Tucson, Arizona. Can you come down for the launch? I decide to get rid of, give away over half my possessions, including my tv, move there to live a life of solitude. And so I spent five years full time writing and researching how to have peace and confidence under the most pressure. And that became the book Inner Excellence.

A (10:21)

And when you first published it, nobody read it, right?

C (10:25)

Yeah. So this was 2009. McGraw Hill published it in the business section, and it did great for what I wanted, which was to get clients. And so, So I was coaching, you know, before January 12th of this year, my life was great, as I was telling you earlier, you know, traveling around the world and coaching professional Olympic athletes. And. But the first 11 days of January 2025 this year, it was selling one to two copies a day, I would say around. Yeah. And then, you know, when AJ Was showing us all that we all have time to read, then that's when things got a little different.

A (10:58)

And you sold, like, 200,000 copies, hit number one New York Times, years after you wrote the book.

C (11:02)

Right, right.

A (11:03)

So sometimes you do something worthy, it takes a while for the world to catch up. So congratulations, Matt.

C (11:07)

Thank you. Thank you very much.

A (11:08)

I have a little bit of an aversion to this kind of toughness culture. Right. Like, I, I, on one hand, admire David Goggins. You know, like, what the heck? On the other hand, it's like, man, you're beating the crap out of yourself. And, and I've done this. I've injured myself. I've had three knee surgeries. I've pushed myself beyond the point where it's healthy. And I think a lot of pro athletes are capable of that because we have willpower. So when we talk about toughness, well, tough things break. So how do you teach people to be tough without breaking?

C (11:38)

So inner excellence has five skills. And the fifth one is adaptability to adapt to any situation. I can share with you an example of a tool. So a tool is something that we use in the moment. Right now I'm really nervous or stressed or anxious. What do I do? Right now we use a tool. And so this tool that, that one, one that I like is called expect nothing. And so it comes from the warriors. It's from the samurai warrior. And the way it goes is you take a long, slow, deep breath in through the nose, always in through the nose. When I get that nitric oxide, and then hold it. And you say, I expect on the way in. And then holding. Then you, when you release the breath, you're relaxing the jaw and facial muscles, space between the eyes, and you're letting go of all concerns and desires. And you say nothing. And the whole idea is, I expect nothing. I can handle anything. In other words, it doesn't matter what happens in the next two minutes or with my speech or with this competition. No matter what happens, if I'm golfing, I can hit the ball out of bounds. Anything is okay. I can handle any situation. And so it just kind of clears the mind of needs and expectations. Expectations.

A (12:45)

It reminds me of a story I heard about on the the show recently that comes also out of Japan from samurai culture. This zazen state. And there's a samurai and he's fighting his enemy and his enemy kind of pushes him off the edge of the cliff and he's holding onto a vine, right? And down below, there's rocks that are going to destroy him. And the guy, the bad guy at the top is hacking at the vine. And the samurai notices a flower on the cliff. And it was beautiful. And that's the whole story.

C (13:15)

That's the outcome that'll happen one way or the other.

A (13:18)

But it's the being present thing. So if part of this toughness is to be present and not outcome based, how do we teach presence?

C (13:27)

Yeah, in fact, that's. If you want to summarize inner excellence, one way you could say it is is that it's an in depth system to be fully engaged. Heart, mind and Body unattached to the results of what you're trying to do.

A (13:37)

Beautiful. I love that. Okay.

C (13:39)

And so being fully present is something to practice every single day. And you know, you talk about being non reactive and having this inner peace. And so it, it really comes down to simplifying your life to one clear purpose for your life. So my purpose is to share God's love, wisdom and courage with athletes and leaders around the world. And I want that to every decision that I make to come through that. And so the pursuit of, of having this non judgmental awareness, it's really this ability to, to be selfless and therefore.

A (14:09)

Fearless because it's not about you, it's about your mission, about the people you home. That definitely has helped me with, you know, fear of failure and things like that. As I develop my awareness, practices and all. At a certain point the mean voice that's worried about failure in my head, it just went away. Like I don't have that inner critic anymore. Do you still have yours?

C (14:31)

When I talk about that inner critic, I think about the, the, the ego which I define. And you talk about a lot which I define as that part of our mind that's always threatened, always comparing and never satisfied. And I've never said that I can recall that I'm. That I'm an expert at inner excellence. I would like to be. And every day I want to get better at it. Am I good at it? It's not something I think about. Whether I'm good at it or not. I know. What I know is that I can be a lot better. And I know I don't want to be mastered by my ego. And I want to walk in love, not fear. I want to be grateful, not entitled. I want to be curious, not, not reactive. And so I've got a ways to go, but that's what I'll do.

A (15:12)

Yeah, there's two kinds of non reactive. There's I was visibly nonreactive and then there's I'm internally non reactive. And it feels like the first step is okay at least even if I'm in turmoil, I'm going to smile or I'm going to show up and I'm going to do it. And the other one is whatever it was didn't even create turmoil so I didn't have to spend energy acting. How much of what you teach is about behaving yourself no matter what's going on inside versus changing what's going on inside.

C (15:44)

So inter excellence is about heart transformation. So it's the belief that your Heart, your spirit, and your will. These are three words that I use interchangeably. That's the control center for your life, working in concert with your subconscious mind.

A (15:57)

Beautiful.

C (15:57)

And so when you're squeezed, what's in your heart is going to come out. And so we want so, because I'm coaching professional athletes and Olympic athletes, you know, a lot of people from all walks of life, but, but especially when I first started, it was. That was the main focus. And, you know, they have this performance under pressure. And so I want them, when they're feeling that pressure, to embrace that feeling. And so when you come, here's what the thing that separates the best from the rest in anything, and one big thing, is that when they get really uncomfortable, they're able to embrace it where everyone else shrinks back. It's like Tom Cruise said, I'm afraid like everybody else, but I'm not afraid to be afraid. And this is such a crucial thing. And so if you have a big performance, if you can ask yourself some questions, Am I willing to face my fears? Am I willing to have any feeling that's a big one and a tough one, any feeling at all, including the panicky feeling? Am I willing to have that and am I willing to sit with it even if it doesn't go away?

A (17:00)

Right.

C (17:00)

Because what happens, people get these feelings and they don't know what to do with it, and then they resist it. Oh, this is really uncomfortable. I don't like it. And they run. And this is so inner excellence is about expanding what you believe is possible. And so what we want to do is when we get to these edge of our feelings, when we're really uncomfortable, that's where you can expand what you. Because beliefs are feelings. And so when you come to those moments where you're really uncomfortable, you can ask yourself these questions. Or if you know you're going to be uncomfortable in a certain situation, ask yourself these questions. And so the key is not so much not the result of what happens, but were you willing to embrace that feeling? Because if you get better at being willing to embrace those feelings, your beliefs are going to expand, your results are going to improve.

A (17:40)

It's the old Winston Churchill, the only thing we have to fear is fear itself.

C (17:44)

Quote.

A (17:46)

It's really elegant the way you're putting it, because that's what it ultimately comes down to.

B (17:53)

If you're like me, you probably spend a lot of time working on your laptop. Problem is that EMFs coming from your.

A (17:59)

Computer, they're not really good for you.

B (18:01)

In fact, if the Laptop is actually on your lap. It's right next to parts of your body that you really, really don't want.

A (18:06)

To cook with EMFs.

B (18:07)

That's why if I'm going to hold my computer on your lap, I'm not going to do it unless I have something underneath it to keep the EMFs away from my most precious bits, if you know what I'm saying. That's why I use the Bon Charge EMF radiation Blocking laptop mat. And if you have kids, make them use the Bon Charge laptop mat if they're going to put a laptop on their lap. It's that big of a deal. There's tons of WI fi and other EMF coming off and it's just too.

A (18:32)

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B (18:33)

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A (19:42)

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A (20:09)

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A (20:30)

You can feel the fear or the anxiety or whatever it is, and, oh, look, a signal from my body. But I'm still going to do what I'm going to do for me, recognizing that I am not my body and that my body has its own separate intelligence and operating system. That is not me.

C (20:48)

And you're not your ego, you talk about and you're not your mind. Very powerful.

A (20:51)

Yeah, it. That's been really freeing for me because, oh, look, my body's freaking out right now. I should probably take some amino acids or something, but it has no bearing on what I'm going to do right now.

C (21:02)

That's so powerful. Like today I was at upgrade labs, and yesterday and today. Amazing place. So I did the cryo. And, you know, the cryo is scary and painful for a lot of people, including myself. Both days I was afraid to get in. And it was painful, but it was exhilarating. And so I asked myself these same questions. Are you willing to have these feelings? Are you willing to have any feeling? What if you panic when you're in there because your cryo has no, like, the ones that I've been in before, they have a little gap. Like, if the door sticks, you can climb out, Right. This one's got no gap. You're like, if that door sticks and you can't get out, you can't get out.

A (21:36)

We have a lock on the door to make sure you stamp.

C (21:40)

So. So, yeah, it was. It was. It was great. I got to face those feelings yesterday and today, and I'll go back tomorrow.

A (21:46)

Oh, that's so cool. You get some of that bicep going on.

C (21:49)

Yeah.

A (21:49)

Brief intentional conscious exposure to pain.

C (21:52)

Yes, exactly.

A (21:53)

It's really funny. When I first started breath work many, many years ago, I think as a part of my yoga practice, they say, okay, breathe out and hold. And within two, three seconds of my lungs being empty, I had the huge panic response I was entirely unaware of. Like, wow, look at me, I'm freaking out. I'm pretty sure I could hold my lungs empty for like, 10 seconds and no one's going to die. But, man, my body did not believe I was going to die. And it was that regular Practice of just driving with the check engine light on.

C (22:20)

Right.

A (22:20)

Okay, look, it's giving me an alert, but it's not like the car's going to explode. I need to dive out the window. It's like, okay, I should do something. Right? And just being at peace. Oh, look, I'm hungry. I'm not going to die for two months if I don't eat. So that's just an awareness versus a pain. And a lot of things that I thought were pain or anxiety, it turns out they were just like, oh, look, it's the sun on my skin. It wasn't what I thought it was. And it was my own fear response to something that I just wasn't conditioned to. How do pro athletes get used to pain that isn't damage?

C (22:51)

Well, I think a lot of pro athletes, they've grown up, they have a certain personality that's willing to undergo pain and things like that. But this idea. So inner excellence has nine disciplines, and one of them is to deprive the appetites. It's similar to the bicep.

A (23:06)

Love that.

C (23:07)

The. The brief, intense, conscious effort of pain.

A (23:12)

Brief intentions, conscious exposure to pain.

C (23:14)

Exposure to. Yes. And so, like, whether it's a cold plunge or cryo, learning to. If you understand as an athlete or anyone, that beliefs are what's running your life. And if I want to have an extraordinary life and I need to expand what I believe is possible, which means embracing those feelings that I haven't been willing to face before, including physical pain. And so physical. There's no way. The way the universe works is that the best possible life has one foot in joy, one foot in suffering. I wish it wasn't that way, but that's how it is, and that's how you get the best possible life. So the one foot in suffering means we need regular bicep exercises. We need to regularly put ourselves in that place that's really uncomfortable so we can grow.

A (23:59)

That's so beautiful. We used to teach young men to be courageous, and it feels like today we teach them, oh, were you scared? Oh, everyone else should change so that you won't have to feel fear. What is courage and how do we teach it?

C (24:14)

That's a great question, because I think that courage is the biggest difference that I see in the. The elite athletes that I've been working with for decades. And anyone that's really successful, I think courage is the number one thing. And courage, this. This place in your heart, this willingness to fail, willingness to. To look foolish, willingness to be embarrassed is. Is so crucial there's no way to have resilience without this. And resilience is what, what makes people great, makes a great business. Because whether you look at your life, whether you look at a great business or anything, it's not a single path. That's a straight line, right. It's, it's always plan B, plan B, Plan B. That's, that's how the greatest businesses are. They're adapting. And that's what a great life is, is learning to adapt. So courage is to, to fail and to, to look foolish and to be. And really to master the ego. What's great about that. Sorry, is, is that we can all be courageous.

A (25:11)

We all can be courageous. And I, I look at courage as feeling fear and doing it anyway. Right. And there's a little bit of a, maybe a self harm evident or there's a little bit of a self harm angle to that where I was feeling fear because it's dangerous in a meaningfully, like you could lose your legs kind of thing and then you do it anyway and you go, oops, that was a serious mistake. And there's some kind of edge between. I felt fear, but it wasn't a real fear versus that was a clear warning from my biology that if I do that I'm going to have to get a new knee. How do you teach these athletes to navigate that edge?

C (25:50)

So there's, here's an example and we can see if this is kind of fits. So I was talking to a Major League baseball all star. This was a year ago, year and a half ago. And about being fully present versus confidence. And what I was saying in this inner excellence retreat is that fully present is. Confidence is great, but even more powerful is to be fully present. If you take two people with the same skills, I'll take the fully present person every time. Because the confident person can be careless. Fully present, they're going to be, they're going to see things that, that the confident person may miss. They're going to be open to ideas, curious, creative. Whereas confidence is great. But it's, it's just a feeling that may miss things.

A (26:32)

So confidence is actually dangerous?

C (26:34)

It can be, yeah.

A (26:35)

Wow, I've never thought of that. Yeah. Because if you're confident, you can do something like they say, 88 of guys believe they could land a large jet.

C (26:45)

Yeah.

A (26:45)

And I'm amongst those. But that's just because I'm confident. I could get on the radio and say tell me how. But you know, that's just me. So like we're all overconfident. At some things and when you're young, you're by definition because you don't know, you don't know yet. So show me a 16 or 18 year old, especially young man and they're going to be so confident. And that's when a lot of these injuries and these things happen are like man, as an adult that was a good judgment, but as a kid it was because of confidence. How do we teach kids presence instead of confidence when they need it most?

C (27:17)

I want to finish that, that story really quick about the major league All Star. Then I'll get to how we can teach it to kids. So the, the major league all star said sometimes when I'm in the bullpen warming up is a major league pitcher, that I wouldn't be dialed in. I would, I would not be performing well. Like oh my gosh, this is not good. And so I would tell myself, I don't care if you walk 10 guys, you're going to be fully present out there. Versus if he was dialed in and warm up, he wouldn't need to say that. He would just go out there and he said what he found over the years was that he would often perform better when he wasn't dialed in and warm up because then he would know he would have to be fully present going in. Whereas when he's dialed in he's like, then he got sometimes a little bit careless. And so now let's talk about kids. Often when I ask someone what they want most and they're unsure, I say, well, what do you want most for your kids? And so what I share with them is that what I found, I think most people resonate with is that they want to have for themselves and for their kids a life with amazing experiences and deep enriching relationships where they're learning and growing and making a difference in of the world. Just kind of like.

A (28:31)

And as, as a dad, that's what I want for my kids. Yeah.

C (28:34)

And so if that's what you want for your kids, the first thing is to model it yourself. And so you can think about it when I'm squeezed, when I'm under pressure, whether it's a little thing like getting cut off in traffic or someone says something mean to you or whatever it is, or we have some sort of adversity, what happened, what comes out of our heart. This is kind of how. Because it's, you can't really see the type of person what's in your heart when things are going good. It's only when you're under Pressure. And so that's what we want to model for our kids. And if you, in understanding that we live in a culture that's obsessed about results and, and yet if you want to have great results, then you've got obsessed about being fully present, fully engaged, and then so that life is really hard to be fully present when you're in a culture that's obsessed about the opposite. Just doesn't matter what's going on right now in the middle of the performances, only what happens at the end. Right. And so that's where you really want to think about how do I want to live my life? Am I going to live caught up in what everyone wants from me or it says it's good, or do I want to live a meaningful, fulfilling life? And that's where love comes in. Because joy, which I define as a deep sense of well being, freedom and gratitude and inner buoyancy that comes from love. This is, I think love is the most powerful force in the universe. It's what holds the grass, holds the stars in place, grows the grass and the, and spins the earth. And this is. Love is completely fearless. And so if you want to make a difference with your kid, then it's learning about this. How do I walk in love? Not fear, how do I be grateful, not entitled when I'm squeezed, how do I have that be a part of my daily life? And that takes daily training.

A (30:16)

Wow, that's really profound. Love is a force that western science doesn't really pay a lot of attention to and like, oh, it's oxytocin and testosterone and, but there's in all the esoteric learnings that I know, it's, it's a part of peace, it's a part of gratitude, it's a part of, of the state we all want. It's part of joy. Right.

C (30:37)

And you talk about peace and forgiveness a lot as well. You know, one of the five Fs.

A (30:41)

Yeah, it's, it's true. So there, there's something about love that it's hard to define and put a. In fact, it's like the Supreme Court definition of pornography. You know, I don't know what it is, but I know it when I see it. And kind of with love. Oh, that person's operating out of love versus something else. You've mentioned in your work that in about 10 seconds you can identify if someone is playing for approval or playing for joy. What are the signs that someone is playing their sport or doing their thing out of joy versus out of seeking approval?

C (31:16)

Love is the most powerful force in the universe, like I said. And so, and you're, if you're playing out of love, then your greatest desire is not to beat the opponent. So first of all, you don't even know if, if winning is the best thing for you. Like, you don't, we don't know. Like, I've got my, my top 10 goals that I want and top 10 things that I don't want in my life, just as we all do, but they could actually be flip flopped. It's, it's possible that the ten things I want least are the ten things that are best for me. The ten things that I want most are maybe the worst things for me. And I don't know if that's, that's true or not. So I want to hold those things loosely. And so in performance, we want to make sure that if I want to learn and grow and have an extraordinary performance when I don't know what's best for me. So like within excellence, we never talk about outcomes, except for at the beginning of the year, we talk about goals. But our main goal anyway every day is to learn and grow. That's our number one goal, learn and grow. Especially in love, wisdom and courage. Because we want to, we want to become a certain type of person that when they're squeezed, that, that this selfless and therefore fearlessness comes out.

A (32:16)

One of the scarier things that I hear, especially young people, say, I want to be an influencer. Do you know the curse that comes with that? And yes, there's all sorts of benefits that come from it. I'm not saying there aren't, and certainly we both are influencers, but it comes with a heavy burden around ego, around awareness, around trust and things like that. So I always kind of like, are you seeking approval? Are you seeking fame? Or do you want to be an influencer because you have a why behind it? And spotting the difference between those, I think determines whether someone becomes the kind of influencer who blows up and kind of ruins their life and the kind of influencer who weathers the critics and all the online garbage and comes through with something that's meaningful. And it feels like the why at the beginning is what determines that.

C (33:03)

I totally get it, why a kid would want to be an influencer. There's two real big reasons. One is that our greatest need is for unconditional love. And if you're an influencer, I think theoretically that means you have a lot of people that are following you, so you're getting that love and you're getting some money, right? And so if you have that love and that money, like that's what, what the. Sure, that's what we want. And so our greatest need is for unconditional love. Our greatest fear is rejection. And so if you're an influencer, then theoretically you're going to be getting that love.

A (33:36)

Theoretically.

C (33:38)

And so, you know what I would tell that person is say, why do you want to be an influencer? What is it that you want most? So inner excellence is really always about diving deep. What is it that you really want? Say, like, because I give this example in the book the Best Possible Life. Say you could have a $10 million home on the water, paid off and have all the, whatever comes with that. You could have that life or you could live in an apartment, paycheck to paycheck, no savings, the rest of your life, but be guaranteed deep contentment, joy, happiness, amazing experiences every single day of your life. Which one would you want? And I know for me, most of my life I would have chosen the house because I didn't really have this awareness of, well, why do you want the house? But if you think it through, well, I want to have the house so I can have these great get togethers where people are going to come over, we're going to have such a good time. Oh, wait, you want it because you want to have a good time, so you want good experiences. Okay, so Inter excellence says, let's go for that directly, where that becomes the.

A (34:38)

Primary goal and everything else is second. I really like that. I guess most of my life I would have said the $10 million house too, until I understood property taxes, especially in California. No, man, no. Thank you, Elise.

C (34:50)

That's funny.

A (34:51)

A lot of this programming, it seems like it comes down to what happened when we were kids and certainly in my life and everyone I've ever worked with, executives and whatnot. So in your work with professional athletes and with CEOs and all, what's the most surprising way you've seen childhood wiring sabotage, world class performance?

C (35:11)

Well, I can tell you that the, the number one way is through the ego. This, this fear of failure, fear of getting embarrassed and, and you know, fear of looking foolish. And there's, there's something that I think that, that would be very powerful for the listeners to, to consider is that principle number two of inner excellence, there's three principles. Number two is that everyone does the best they can with what they have in their hearts. And so you talked about when you're a kid, you know so much of your experiences as a kid impact you as an adult, impact all of us. And because we're so impressionable when we're younger. And if you think about. Well, because some people maybe have parents that. That they feel made some mistakes in parenting them, for example, that's common, right.

A (35:56)

To feel that all parents make mist.

C (35:59)

And so if you. If you believe this, that I believe is true, that everyone does the best they can with what they have in their hearts.

A (36:06)

Yeah.

C (36:07)

Then you can get into what you taught one of your five Fs is, is that forgiveness? Right. And so. And that's with everything. Not only is it. Is everyone always doing the best they can with what they have in their hearts, it doesn't mean that what they did was good. There may be some repercussions that need to happen. But it's helping you understand and not get into the. The fear and judgment that comes when you. When you judge. And so not only did they do the best they can with what they have in their heart, but you would have done the exact or said the exact same thing they said or did. If you had their childhood, their beliefs, their fears, their wounds, their lens through seeing the world, you would have said or done the exact same thing.

A (36:46)

Just paying it forward.

C (36:47)

So what's the only. The only wise response? If you see someone that's. That's acting or acted towards you in a way that is not empowering or helpful, and you recognize that, that you wouldn't do that, the only wise response is compassion.

A (37:01)

I thought you're gonna say pepper spray. Okay, Compassion.

C (37:03)

It's compassion. Because you have that in your heart and they don't. Yeah, you have those resources and they don't. So it's a gift. That's. Gratitude is the only way. And I'm not saying that's easy or that I've ever done it. I'm just saying that's the wise response.

A (37:17)

I interviewed Victor Chan a while ago, the Dalai Lama's best friend. And he told a story about a monk who came to visit the Dalai Lama who'd been tortured for 10 years in prison. And the Dalai Lama asked him and said, what was the hardest thing you went through? And the monk sits for a minute and he thinks. And he said, it was the time I almost lost compassion for my jailers, as it was all something he could handle as long as he kept that compassion. But if he was going to drop into blame, then the pain would all be there.

C (37:51)

That's so powerful. You know, it reminds me of Nelson Mandela. Similar, because as soon as we start to judge now we're creating this negative energy that some goes, stays with us and some goes to the other person. And if you can imagine having that negative energy every single day now you're going to have the pain. But if you add the negative energy energy on top of it, it's like being depressed about being depressed. It doubles. Doubles the pain.

A (38:12)

Totally does. Wow. Part of your framework, it's really fascinating is critic, monkey mind and trickster. What are these?

C (38:21)

So when I think about the greatest obstacles that we face in performance and in life, it starts with self centeredness. This, this natural need to, to be self referential and you know, feed myself and clothe myself. But it runs, runs into some serious problems where we get in our own way and we, we start overthinking. We have this over analysis and we have this judgmental thinking and negative thinking and then we have this self consciousness, this concern for what other people are going to think. And that's when I think about the, the, the, the critic, the, the trickster and the, the judge. You know, that's what I was it the judge critic.

A (38:59)

It was critic. Monkey mind.

C (39:00)

Monkey mind? Yes. Monkey mind. Yeah. So the monkey mind that over analysis, that's a mind that has too many thoughts from too many concerns. And it's generally for most of us it's because we're living this self in the center life. Constantly thinking about what's going to happen to me. Because fear in general is a self centered future thing. What will happen to me in the future after I speak, after I perform? Will they like it? Will they not? Will I get rejected? Will I not? And so that's why over analysis happens. And this, all this comes from this self centered lives.

A (39:31)

So it's fear that something will happen to you. So because of fear and anxiety you're just thinking about all the different things that could go wrong and monkey mind and all that. How's it different from the critic?

C (39:41)

When I think of the critic I think of this part of our mind that's always judging. So we have the, the just the too many thoughts and then we have the part that's judging. When I say judge, I mean to, to give a negative verdict on self circumstances or others. And so like being judgmental. And so whenever we judge, some negative energy stays with us. Some goes to the circumstance or the other person. We become more unstable every time we do it. And so we don't want to judge if we want to live an extraordinary life or have an extraordinary performance. We want to use Discernment to figure out what's the best approach for this person. Sometimes it might mean, you know, having a boundary or whatever around the person has circumstance and, and so developing non judgmental mental awareness. Kind of something that you talk about a lot is this, this non reactiveness, this inner peace where you're not constantly reacting to your. Your circumstances. And then we have the trickster. And so for me, the number one thing that, that holds people back, like high performers that are really talented, is lack of freedom.

A (40:42)

Yep, that's a big one.

C (40:43)

And it's, it's this, it kind of goes all the way back to this subconscious understanding that everyone has. My greatest need is to be loved and accepted. And if I screw this up, if I embarrass myself, say the wrong thing, do the wrong thing, if I fail, I'm going to lose what I need most. And so lack of freedom is a, is a maybe the biggest issue. This self consciousness, self concern. That's why love is so important and powerful. Because this, this desire to, to serve others, especially serving in secret. This frees you, as John Orkberg says, frees you from concern from other people.

A (41:19)

Think, yeah, just being of service. One of the ways to go into flow state is service to others. And there's so much written about, you know, extreme sports and all this, you know, crazy downhill skiing stuff. That's probably not a sustainable way to be in flow state, but doing something to help another person, similar neurological states, but I think that comes with gratitude and love and it's maybe a gentler way to be in that state that you want to be in. What is the trickster? You mentioned this in your work. That's a part of the inner wiring. Trickster is also, you know, the Loki archetype and a lot of my shamanic training. The trickster is usually present when there's metaphysical things happening. When you know there's things that aren't supposed to happen. There's always a little bit of a twist at the end. So this is an inner trickster or is this an outer trickster? How do you address that?

C (42:14)

Yeah, thanks, Dave. So this idea, the word trickster, comes from my friend John Kehoe. He wrote a book called Mind power into the 21st century. It's an incredible book. Very simple, easy.

A (42:23)

I have this book on my shelf.

C (42:25)

Yeah, okay. Yeah, it's a great book. Kind of explains how the mind works. And so that idea of trickster for me is that is this part of our mind that I think of as the ego always threatened, always comparing Never satisfied. And so when I think of the trickster, I think of that ego. But it's also saying, who are you to be great? You can't do this. Look at, you failed here. You failed here. Look at all these mistakes you've made. And so remember how I said I think courage is the greatest difference between the best and anything and the rest. And part of that courage is, am I willing to let go of my past? Because people are really afraid to let go of their past because who will I be? Aren't on my past. It's kind of like you talk about it a lot. You're not your body and you're not your mind. So important to understand this and that. You're not your past. Because if you realize most people will never reach their potential because they're too afraid to let go of their past, because then they lose their identity.

A (43:20)

Yes.

C (43:21)

And are you willing to let go of your past? Because if you're willing to let go of that and all you've been, then you can learn and grow and become someone you've never been before and do things that you've never done before.

A (43:31)

Let's say you've got a aspiring young professional athlete and they're hitting their, their upper limit of what they can do right now. What do you do to teach them to let go of their past so they can go to another level?

C (43:45)

Well, now we're getting into feelings again. Feelings are such a big teacher. And I, I started really thinking about this with, with Conor McGregor, you know, the, the mixed martial artist he talked about when he first turned pro, he would get into the ring and, and, and he would get these feelings. He's like, what are these feelings? You know, this nerves. And so then he said, I started to look for them. And he's like, now I'm like, you know, I can go into Madison Square Garden and, you know, whatever. It's easy. He didn't say it's easy. He used a different adjective. But. And so I started thinking about that and it's like, yes, that's what we need to understand is that to live an extraordinary life, to, to break out of whatever you passed, or limiting belief or limiting results that you've had, it's really understanding that these feelings, learning to navigate these feelings are crucial because beliefs are feelings. And if I can, every time I get these, this uncomfortable feeling, can I embrace it in the moment? I'll give you an example. Would that be helpful? So when you have. Here's an example. In my life, I was playing this, this basketball game, I think it might be 21, you're shooting free throws. And I was playing with these guys that were younger than me. And so my ego was like, I really want to be beat these guys. And so I was, I was shooting my free throws and I was like, the one kid said, man, you don't miss. You know, he's. And I was starting, my ego's like, oh my gosh, now I really don't want to miss. So then I started to get nervous about missing. And so in those moments when you're really nervous, you can ask yourself a question. What do I want more to, to be successful in this moment or master my ego? Because yes, you want to be successful in the moment, of course, but is there anything you want even more? Like, do you want to. In other words, do you want to just get this moment over with and be okay, or do. And in the future you're going to get nervous again and be stressed and maybe panic in the future and have anxiety, or do you want to start to develop the self mastery over these moments where you really start to feel the experience and enjoy these moments more? Like, of course, if you're giving a wise answer, it's. It's the latter, right? And so when you say, because it's the same thing I did with a pro golfer. He was, we were in the playoffs and it was a practice round and they were playing $100 a birdie. And the first two holes, the other two guys birdied. So now he's down 400 bucks, third hole, he has an easy, a fairly short birdie. Putting, he missed. And he said he was really nervous. And I said, that was your ego. And he said, what do you mean? I said, would you have missed that on your home course by yourself? Yeah, probably not. And I said, yeah, because you were thinking about them, you really wanted to beat them and you really didn't want to. To miss. Those two things created this anxiety that caused you to miss. And so in that moment, what you can do is when you have this nerves, you can say, is this my ego? If you think, yeah, I'm concerned about what people will think and how I'll look, then you recognize, oh, the best thing for me may not be to be successful in this moment. If I really want to master my ego, it might be because if you make it, if you're successful, there's not a lot of work on the ego, right? You're like, it's over, the moment's over. It's like a little Relief, right? But if you miss it, you get that discomfort. It's like the gimmes and golf. People don't like gimmes and golf because there's two points of real discomfort. There's the, oh, I could miss this. And then if you miss it, then there's the terrible feeling after missing it. So that's why, you know, is that a gimme. Just let me just take it instead of facing that uncomfortable feeling.

A (47:08)

Makes so much sense. I made a practice starting in my early 20s to go out and do every single thing that I was afraid of. It just, I have no idea what part of me motivated me to do.

C (47:20)

That, but it resulted in a 6 million dollar business by the time you're 26.

A (47:25)

Yeah, it made a difference because you know, you can only look stupid so many times, right? And you know that means you have to deal with shame and guilt and fear and meaning.

C (47:36)

After that you're, you're like, okay, you're like, look, I'm, I've looked foolish so many times. What's another one?

A (47:42)

And the story is, the internal story is I will die if I'm shamed. And it's a real thing because if you're in a tribe like I was just with the Maasai and they have this brutal practice they told me about. So the Maasai warriors, they train and a lot of them have scars on their arms because when they're 15, they get circumcised with no anesthesia whatsoever and if they flinch or make a sound or show any motion or movement at all, their entire family is shamed and kicked out of the tribe. And less than 1% fail.

C (48:19)

That's intense.

A (48:20)

It's incredibly intense. And, well, why? Because if you're kicked out of the tribe, you really will get eaten, right? So we have it in our mitochondria, in our ancient billion year old biology that if you're kicked out of the tribe, you die. And so this is why shame has this huge like sense of doom. It's not real. It's just your body manipulating you just in case you're going to get kicked out of the tribe. But once you experience failure and you go, oh wow, I didn't die. And instead of wallowing in it, you know I didn't die, and you frame it the way you talk about in your work, then the next time it isn't triggering nearly as much in exposure therapy. I think that's made a difference for me before I. The reset process and all the other things. But it's Not a path for everyone, that's for sure. But learning how to lose is maybe more important than learning how to win.

C (49:12)

Oh, for sure, for sure. I mean, anybody can, can win and enjoy that, but how many people can lose and learn and grow from it and really embrace it and find every little thing that can make them better? It's very few people.

A (49:27)

Yeah, very few. What would you say to someone who hates the way they show up in the world, but they don't know how to change it? It?

C (49:33)

There's so much out of your control in this world. There's so much fear, anxiety, tension, violence in the world. And understanding that you could die tomorrow is so important. I was just, you know, like I shared earlier that I spent five hours yesterday and today at Upgrade labs here. It was really incredible experience. And talking to one of the staff about how I want to live is I want to be every moment ready to fully live or physically die every moment of the day. I'm not saying I've done that much, but that's how I would like to be.

A (50:06)

That's the goal.

C (50:06)

And so fully live. And part of that is really to embrace wisdom. And whether it's from an 8 year old or an 88 year old, a homeless person or anyone, to be able to recognize it, it's like, wow, okay, I need to listen right here because I think wisdom is always calling and most of my life I haven't heard it or understood it. And so I want to get better at hearing and embracing it and then being ready to physically die in a moment's notice. And so if someone is not happy with how they're, you know, presenting themselves to the world, it's really like, how do I be my true self? I think it's really understanding that there's no one in the world that can bring to the world what you can. There's no one else in the world that can be Dave Asprey. No one has your experience and your relationships and your millions of dollars of biohacking and everything that you've been through. And the same thing for a person could be a teenager that says, you know, I don't like how I present myself to the world. And it's really important to understand that no one can bring to the world what you can. And that to be true to yourself, to me, is really understanding how the world works, how the universe was created. And it's really like, we're created for relationships. And if you devote your life or even if you say, like, I'm just going to Devote this day to serving someone. Then you can start to get into that, that flow where you have that joy and then you can build on.

A (51:27)

That I like it flow, enjoy. That self loathing thing is, Is so big. I think social media amplifies it. And having a purpose and then just learning that voice in your head is not really real for me was a big part of the lesson here. So I love the way you're framing all this. Thank you.

C (51:47)

Yeah. You talked about shame, and for me, shame is. Is. It's kind of like I can. I think about guilt and shame together. Whereas guilt is. Is I made a mistake and shame is I am a mistake.

A (51:58)

Yes. What a big difference though.

C (52:00)

Guilt is I failed.

A (52:01)

Yeah.

C (52:02)

Shame is. I am a failure. And so that shame, you can, you can heal the shame as, as you start to get into that sacrificial love and recognize. I can. My whole life may have been a failure. Like maybe I made terrible decisions my whole entire life. That's okay. None of that matters anymore. Are you willing to let it go? And are you willing to do your best to walk in love today? The selflessness that creates this fearlessness, Are you open for that? And if you are, then anything's possible.

A (52:34)

I look at guilt as a positive emotion and shame as a negative one. Or if you feel guilt over something you did well, you should probably apologize.

C (52:41)

Right.

A (52:42)

Make it right. And if you don't, you're probably a narcissist and you just don't know it, which is what narcissists are. They don't know they're narcissists. If they did know, they would be sociopaths. So that whole study for me was really enlightening to understand, like this is what happens around shame or oh my God, I'm such a piece of whatever. You know, I get over that. Like, I screwed up. Up. And that's just a learning point. And, and anyone who makes that transition in, in life to, to transmute shame into guilt, because guilt is fixable and shame is not. So that. That's terribly important.

C (53:19)

Yeah, I think it feels like shame is, is not fixable and that's, that's where it gains power. And so talking about it to, to others, taking it out of the dark and into the light is super important. Important. One of the things that we haven't talked about yet is surrender. And I think when we think about, for example, Alcoholics Anonymous, AA and the 12 steps, it's, you know, it's changed millions and millions of lives all over the world. And it it's really this surrender, the power of surrender. And that's inner excellence is saying do I want, if I want to live the best possible life, no matter what I do, what walk of life I am, it's learning to surrender your little strength, your little mind for the, the power of the universe. Are you willing and open to do that? And so like I said, it doesn't matter anything about your past. You could be a serial killer. It doesn't matter that are you willing to surrender your life like in a. To, to God as you understand him, your life and your will to him as you understand him, then your life can completely change. Just like an alcoholic.

A (54:18)

It's related to this idea that you want to live every day so you're ready to die. And for some people that can be triggering, in which case that, you know, that means you're carrying a load of gun, you should do something about that. But for the rest of us, we're still curious after hearing that. Well, what does it really mean? It for me that's part of my longevity strategy is to be completely unafraid of dying and willing to do it whenever the time is right. It's very different than, you know, a friend runs, you know, don't ever die at any cost kind of a vibe. I think that, that, that feels fear based to me where look, the sun will go supernova, you're probably going to die, right? The odds are very high. And if you, if you worry about that, it doesn't feed you the whole time you're working on being healthy and all that. And if you say like I'm going to die but on the way I'd like to, I'd like to at a time and buy a method of my choice. When I'm done with everything I want to do. For me that, that enhances my longevity versus like the, the kind of cringing away from it. Like don't die at any cost. How do you teach that vibe? Whether it's about longevity or even just about sports success where people are. Fear of failure is one side, in pursuit of excellence is the other. Like fear of death is one side pursuit of an awesome, exceptionally long life. How do you get people to shift from one to the other?

C (55:42)

That's a great question. So it's like I think of people, you're walking either love or fear. You're in this love, which is this creative self expression of your true self, making a difference in the world. Amazing experiences, fearless or fear, where it's this self protection, building walls that imprison you, it's either gratitude or entitlement. And if I'm working with a professional athlete that's say some NBA player and they're not into love or any of these sort of softer skills they might call them, and they said, look, I just want to win. I just want to be an NBA all Star, then I would say, yeah, that's totally great, I can help you do that. What we need to do is figure out how do we get you fully engaged, heart, mind and body, and attach the results of what you're trying to do that you can't control. And so then we're going to start with how he wants to feel and live. And then we need to get him to be fully engaged in the moment. We need to get away from his fears. We need to get folk get out, get out of fear and into that fearlessness. So how are we going to do it? We're going to do it with love. And so I may not say it that way to him, depending on how he, how I can connect with him. I want to obviously connect with as deeper level as I can, but it's really helping him learn. Okay, this is a certain way that when I feel my very best, if he's married and has kids, like, how do you feel when you're with your kids? Like, is that when you feel your best, the most joy? Okay, we're going to create your life around getting that more often. Would that help you be a better basketball player? If you have that when you're playing or however he wants to feel. And it's really helping them understand that love is the most powerful force on earth, it's fearless and that you can get there more often and get the joy that comes from it.

A (57:22)

Love it. There's something else. It's a part of longevity for me. The most successful agers, the happiest people who've taught me something in their 90s, they have this childlike energy, a sense of play that they somehow either regained or never lost. I'm thinking of one of the world's top Mr. Olympians who's been on the show. Frank Zane, totally like that. And Eric Handel, Nobel Prize winner, 94 years old, totally playful. How do we recapture that childlike energy so that we can have it for our whole lives?

C (57:59)

Super powerful. Really big part of interactions. I think of that in two words. On wonder. How do we get more on wonder? And the opposite is lack of freedom. And that lack of freedom, which kind of comes similar to, like I said, the over analysis and Then the judgment. And it all kind of comes down to that self protection and fear. And so how do we get out of that fear and into that love where we have this because love is fearless. And now we can get into the honesty wonder. You can think of it as we got love and then joy and then peace and on wonder. And so it's kind of this progression. And so if we want to get into the childlike on wonder, we have to get into that love. And love is this willingness to sacrifice how you look, how you come off to others and are you willing to be embarrassed and fail and look foolish because if you're not willing to do it, you're never going to have the, this, this on wonder as a kid which is so crucial. And I'm so glad you brought that up because this is I think such a big part of, of, of the best possible life and high performance is having that, that ability to play like a kid.

A (59:03)

Beautiful answer. Jim. Thanks for putting 5 years into creating your work and your book. Your website is inExcellence.com and guys, if you care about performance and resilience and this inner game that's a part of longevity, it's a part of developing consciousness and showing up in whatever your sport is, whether it's even a sport, there is wisdom in this book from a guy who's really done the work. So appreciate you.

C (59:33)

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so like spending the day with you has been amazing. So many, all of your years of work in the biohacking is amazing because I want to also make my environment inside and out, out as, as good as it possibly can be every day. So thank you for all the work you've done.

A (59:49)

Very welcome. If you died today and all of your work was removed from the world except for one piece of knowledge, what would it be?

C (59:59)

Well, the first thing that comes to mind is, is principle number one for inner excellence is that everything is here to teach me and help me. It's all working for my good. And so if you understand that you're in training right now, your life is training, God is training you, the universe is training you right now. And whenever you go through difficult things, this is preparing you for the future. And had I known that going through the tough times, it would have been so much less stressful. And I wish I could go back and tell that younger Jim. It's like, look, you might think this is horrible, the worst thing that could possibly happen to you, but one day you're going to be talking with Dave Asprey and you're going to recognize that some of those things that you thought were the worst were extraordinary things for you that really helped you learn and grow and dramatically improved your life.

A (60:50)

See you next time on the Human.

B (60:53)

Upgrade Podcast.

D (60:58)

The Human Upgrade, formerly Bulletproof Radio, was created and is hosted by Dave Asprey. The information contained in this podcast is provided for informational purposes only and is not intended for the purpose of of diagnosing, treating, curing or preventing any disease. Before using any products referenced on the podcast, consult with your healthcare provider carefully, read all labels and heed all directions and cautions that accompany the products. Information found or received through the podcast should not be used in place of a consultation or advice from a healthcare provider. If you suspect you have a medical problem or should you have any healthcare questions, please promptly call or see your healthcare provider. This podcast, including Dave Asprey and the producers, disclaim responsibility for any possible adverse effects from the use of information contained herein. Opinions of guests are their own and this podcast does not endorse or accept responsibility for statements made by guests. This podcast does not make any representations or warranties about guest qualifications or credibility. This podcast may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products or services. Individuals on this podcast may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to herein. This podcast is owned by Bulletproof Media.