Why 65% of People SUCK at Modern Relationships : 1398

Summary

Podcast Summary: Why 65% of People SUCK at Modern Relationships | The Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey (#1398, Jan 15, 2026)

Overview

In this high-energy episode, Dave Asprey dives deep into attachment theory and the crisis of modern relationships with expert guest Adam Lane Smith, a relationship coach and specialist in attachment, who brings 16 years of experience helping high-achieving businesspeople (and others) build secure bonds. Together, they unpack why 65% of people in the US and Western Europe have insecure attachment, how this sabotages intimacy, community, and even business, and—crucially—what can be done to heal our relational wounds for more energy, resilience, and legacy. The conversation is a practical, sometimes stark look at how societal changes have broken family systems, as well as a hopeful guide to rebuilding authentic human connection.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The Importance of Secure Attachment

• Modern Epidemic: 65% of people in the US and Western Europe have insecure attachment ([05:11] A).
• Attachment is not “being broken,” but patterns and beliefs about relationships, shaped by early life and reinforced over time ([05:56] A).
• Secure attachment is described as “the highest form of wealth” and the key to personal and societal resilience ([00:09] A, [57:38] A).

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2. How Society Got Here

• Historical shifts, from World War I onward, dissolved traditional community structures. Family support was replaced by fragmented systems, leaving individuals isolated and unattached ([06:23] A).
• “Humans are not broken, but our systems are.” ([06:18] A)
• The rise of tech/digital life and performance-oriented childhoods have left people biochemically and emotionally starving for real connection ([07:22] A, [10:24] A).

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3. Biohacking Relationships: Hormones, Nervous System, & Energy

• Fully regulated humans can reach ~80% capacity—50% from self-regulation, 30% from “co-regulation” via healthy relationships ([09:04] A).
• Without secure relationships and bonding hormones (oxytocin, vasopressin), most are stuck at 30% capacity, leading to chronic fatigue and dopamine-binging ([08:54] A).
• “We’re supposed to release bonding hormones”—that’s what gives lasting energy ([07:42] A).

"You have to have the relationship, you have to have the conversations. There's no hack for this."
— Adam Lane Smith ([09:06] A)

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4. The Trap of Modern Dating & the Tyranny of Expectations

• Dating apps commoditize people (“ordering off DoorDash”) and overload partners with impossible emotional demands ([10:47] A).
• Partners are expected to provide 50%+ of emotional regulation, when ancient systems were built on a tribe approach—partner should only be ~15% ([11:30] A).
• Solution: Intentionally rebuilding pseudo-family/tribal systems and seeking community as core, not just romantic, relationships ([11:43] A).

“We’re trying to shop for the hormones we cannot get in meaningless, disposable relationships.”
— Adam Lane Smith ([11:10] A)

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5. Practical Frameworks for Men & Women

For Women Seeking Secure Attachment ([18:49] – [25:47] A):

• Start with biochemistry: Regulate your nervous system via somatic/physical practices (“cold showers, progressive relaxation, heavy workouts”) ([25:54] A).
• Community first: Build bonds with women/friends for oxytocin—don't rely solely on a romantic partner.
• Purpose: Clarify why you want a man; aim for “executive partnership” over “feelings and services.”
• Recognize beliefs: If you hold, “I’m only worth what I do for others,” healing is needed ([23:01] A).
• Women's groups are vital for processing via conversation, mutual oxytocin release ([28:26] A).

For Men Seeking Secure Attachment ([36:44] – [41:12] A):

• Biggest failure mode: The “lone wolf” trap. Men need “brotherhood”—vasopressin bonds—by solving problems together; not isolation or only seeking a woman to ‘fix’ everything ([37:33] A).
• Men’s groups are key; “solution-focused sharing” is the model for relational growth ([40:07] A).
• Building community for both genders is essential—intentionally seek or create small, trusted groups ([41:23] B).

“Men need other men first... We can't go find it in a woman and fix our whole life with a girlfriend.”
— Adam Lane Smith ([37:32] A)

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6. The Four Levels of Safety & Peace in Relationships ([30:26] – [35:46] A)

Men provide women:

1. Physical safety (“tiger will not eat you”)
2. Resource safety (provider role, not just finance)
3. Emotional safety (safe space for emotions, steady presence)
4. Bonding safety (expressed loyalty, unique intimacy)

Women provide men:

1. Calm (regulated nervous system in the home)
2. Gentleness (softness/curiosity in speech)
3. Loyalty (especially in challenges)
4. Executive partnership (loving accountability, challenge, and shared “vision”)

“What if a woman could bring you this? [Four levels of peace] He says, I would give her everything.”
— Adam Lane Smith ([35:37] A)

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7. Fixing Insecure Patterns: For All

• Healing attachment is possible (neuroplasticity). “You remap your neural pathways...through better experiences and skills” ([35:57] A).
• Both men and women should process together, do tasks together, seek community, and intentionally “collaborate” to form new, healthy tribes ([43:03] A).

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8. Modern Dating Realities & Age

• Spotting secure partners: Look for calm, openness, curiosity, clear goals in conversations, and slow physical escalation ([45:30] A).
• 90-day “no sex” courtship period is recommended to prevent hormonal “drunkenness” and ensure compatibility is assessed with logic ([46:43] A).
• Age-gapped relationships generally less stable—plus/minus five years is ideal ([74:10] A).
• Over 50: Merge legacies with similarly aged, secure partners for greatest fulfillment, and always connect via trusted network/community, not apps ([77:50] A).

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9. The Societal Crisis & Call to Action

• Current trends point to population crisis and “social-emotional culling” in cities like NYC and LA—only groups with secure attachment will endure and thrive ([56:12] A).
• Building secure attachment—oxytocin, vasopressin, “tribe”—will be the core wealth of the future ([57:38] A).

“I think a social emotional culling is coming where people are going to prune the family tree.”
— Adam Lane Smith ([57:59] A)

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10. Practical Tools & Moving Forward

• Attachment Style Quiz: AdamLaneSmith.com (free, [64:05] A).
• Vulnerability and collaborative connection (not individual therapy or AI “pseudo-friends”) are critical ([62:36] A).
• Red Flags vs. Green Flags: Secure people ask and welcome questions, have a “plan” for relationships, are not hyper-approval-seeking or avoidant ([67:19] A).
• Avoid large, negative women’s groups; build small, healthy in-person networks ([78:36] A).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On healing:
  “There are neural pathways that you formed as an infant and as a child... but these can be changed through skills and experiences. That’s it. You remap your neural pathways.” ([35:57] A)
• On biohacking relationships:
  “We’re supposed to be integrated with other humans more. We’re supposed to be talking more, connected more. But more than that, we’re supposed to be releasing bonding hormones.” ([07:42] A)
• On tech and dopamine:
  “They might dopamine binge with those little nightmare rectangles we all carry in our pocket to try to feel a little better…” ([07:42] A)
• On gender roles:
  “Men are shifting not to a feminine role, but a very effeminate role...downgraded to the level of children that most women are seeing.” ([00:09] A)
• On finding partners:
  “Women at that age don’t date on websites, don’t date on the apps... date through your community and network.” ([77:50] A)
• On the urgency of change:
  “The world needs you more at 50 and 60 than they needed you at 20.” ([75:10] A)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [05:11] – The data: 65% with insecure attachment
• [06:23] – Historical causes of relational breakdown
• [09:04] – Biohacking energy through secure attachment
• [10:24] – Biochemical starvation and modern dating
• [11:43] – The solution: build family/community systems
• [18:49] – Secure attachment for women: steps and pitfalls
• [25:54] – Nervous system regulation: practical techniques
• [30:26] – Four levels of safety (men for women)
• [32:32] – Four levels of peace (women for men)
• [36:44] – How men heal insecure attachment
• [41:23] – Building men’s/women’s groups & communities
• [45:30] – Spotting secure vs. insecure partners
• [46:43] – 90-day rule for intimacy: why wait
• [51:49] – Vasopressin and long-term bonding (shared tasks)
• [56:12] – What the future holds: culling, crisis
• [57:38] – Secure attachment as the “highest wealth”
• [62:36] – Dangers of substituting AI for human bonds
• [64:05] – Free attachment style test (AdamLaneSmith.com)
• [74:10] – Dating at 50+: why community and networks matter most

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Conclusion

This episode offers a data-backed, actionable, and deeply human roadmap to fixing the modern relationship crisis. The prescription? Prioritize nervous system regulation, build intentional “tribal” connections, invest in community before seeking intimacy, and treat relationships like a co-founded enterprise—with secure partners providing structured safety and peace to each other.

If you’re one of the 65% with insecure attachment, take heart: it can be changed—and the future belongs to those who do the work.

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Attachment style quiz and more at: AdamLaneSmith.com
Discount code for courses: DaveAsprey10 ([64:37] B)

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(This summary skips ads, intro, and closing disclaimer.)

Transcript

[A]

The world needs you more at 50 and 60 than they needed you at 20.

[B]

If we have the wisdom of age and the energy of youth, maybe we'll fix some shit. Someone needs to be the CEO of the relationship.

[A]

He has specialized with a nervous system that is designed to go outside of the perimeter. Face fires, build solutions. Men are shifting not to a feminine role, but a very effeminate role. They're downgraded to the level of children that most women are seeing. Meaning these women are seeing a choice between male children or heavily avoidant men. Think a social emotional culling is coming where people are going to prune the family tree. The future is going to belong to people who have secure attachment because it's the highest form of wealth you can have. Those people are going to be the ones building the future.

[B]

You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey.

[C]

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[B]

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[C]

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[B]

If you've been listening to the show for a while, you know about the F words, how our bodies identify the world around us and how we do it in order. Fear comes first. If something's scary, run away from killer, hide. Then food, eat everything. Then the next F word. We'll call it fertility, just for politeness sake. And this is where most of your energy goes before you have a chance to think. But don't forget the word after that, which is friend. And finally, forgiveness. The episode today is one that I'm really excited to talk about because we're going to go really deep on attachment theory and secure attachment. And if these words are new to you, that's okay. This is a part of the world of psychology, and I've done a couple really interesting episodes in the past about this, including with a Harvard guy named Daniel P. Brown who has done a lot of great work in the space. And our guest today is someone who's spent a lot of time working on building secure attachment in relationships, specifically for business people. Someone who's fixed a lot of relationships and probably ended some that needed ending. We'll get into that. And I want you to know about this because if you set your life up right in the context of biohacking, your love life, your most intimate relationship becomes a source of nourishment and power for you instead of a burden. And what I want you to do is make more energy than you ever have in your life and then allocate none of it to fear, unless there's actually a mugger, in which case maybe you should do that, and none of it to food because you learned how to eat. And then you have a lot of it for your relationship and for your community. And that's how we make the world a better place. And so that's the setup for Adam Lane Smith, who spent about 16 years doing incredible work in the field of attachment. Adam, welcome to the show.

[A]

That is quite an introduction. Thank you.

[B]

You are welcome. How'd you like that framework?

[A]

That was beautiful. I love that.

[C]

We.

[A]

We need more energy, and most people today are walking around with about 30% capacity.

[B]

Wow. How do you know?

[A]

So the Research on this is really cool, right? We know that a human being is supposed to get 70% of their own capacity through self means, self care. But that 70% assumes you wake up after a perfect night's rest, perfect nutrition, perfect supplements, perfect everything. Most people, the most that they can probably get on their own is 50%. But that's assuming you have healthy neurotransmitters, a good balance of bonding hormones. You actually are reliant in your relationships for even that 50%. So most people are sitting about 30%. And we know that the research shows that about 65% of people have insecure attachment where they can't connect to other human beings. 65, 65%.

[B]

Is that US or global?

[A]

That is US and Western Europe.

[B]

So is it that Americans are broken?

[A]

That's a framework people use a lot, right? We hear attachment wounds. You're broken, you're messed up. Attachment is just a series of beliefs about relationships and then responses to those beliefs and the behaviors that you enact. It's a series of patterns that you play out so you can become secure over time. It's just that most of us are adapted to believing no one will ever love us.

[B]

Why would people believe that?

[A]

There's a lot of reasons. How far back do you want to go?

[B]

Go back to the beginning.

[A]

Go back to the beginning. So World War I, right? We see a huge influx of people moving off family farms into cities. But industrialization, families being ripped apart. We just see this brokenness in society start to form where all of our neural networks that we're supposed to be having around us for our whole life dissolve cataclysmic, right? Humans shoved into places they're not meant to be, living in ways they're not supposed to live. 18 hour work days, families breaking up at the drop of a hat. That has continued for the last 110 years, but it's escalated with each generation as we've also then codified those broken pieces in and said, okay, well then the government will step in and rescue this group. Well then this group of people, instead of, instead of having family and friends, you'll have whatever it is, right? We've just broken, broken, broken. So it's our systems around us that are making us this way. Humans are not broken, but our systems are.

[B]

If this has been happening for 100 years and 65% of people aren't trained to know how to attach to others in a healthy way, what's the answer?

[A]

Well, the answer is that we have to build systems that are like what we're meant for what our neurology and biology is designed for. Which is more back to the hunter gatherer structures, but in a smarter, more connected way. Let's talk about this way. Okay. Maybe this sounds familiar. You tell me. But a lot of people today, they wake up and they're already tired.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And they're waiting, counting the hours until they get to go back to bed. They get up, they maybe see their spouse. They're not that excited to see their spouse because it's one more problem to solve. What's your mood like today? Are you mad at me? Are we okay? Then they go see their kids and they think of all the obligations maybe they've missed with their kids lately. And they try to pat them on the head and make them happy, send them off. They go to work. It's just this endless cycle of meaningless work that doesn't really matter to them. It's one checklist after another which drains what little energy they already had. By the time they get home, they're exhausted. They might dopamine binge with those little nightmare rectangles we all carry in our pocket to try to feel a little bit better or some sugar or shopping. Just dopamine. Dopamine, dopamine. Throughout the day. And all it's doing is filling a biochemical hole. And then at the end of the night, they're disappointed by the day, they go to bed feeling worse, they wake up the next morning. Same cycle repeats over and over. And that's not what we're designed for. We're supposed to be integrated with other humans more. We're supposed to be talking more, connected more. But more than that, we're supposed to be releasing bonding hormones. Two of them in particular. Oxytocin and vasopressin. And when we don't have those in our systems, our entire system collapses. That's why when we don't have the 30% co regulation with other people and we're losing 40% off self regulation, you're living at 30% capacity.

[B]

So you're saying oxytocin nasal spray will fix everything?

[A]

I've heard this. Then people have asked me. We do have to remember that our brain, not only do we need the chemicals, we need the associations.

[B]

Oh, darn right. There's no hack for this.

[A]

There is not quite a hack for the no spray. You have to have the relationship, you have to have the conversations. But once we do get the oxytocin, then it stimulates GABA production, which suppresses cortisol. Once we do get the oxytocin. We synthesize melatonin better and we utilize our magnesium differently so we sleep deeper at night. Once we can do that, we can enter our parasympathetic rest state and we can sleep better. We can generate more serotonin. This allows us that 30% CO regulation with other people, but also an extra 20% on self regulation. You're at 50% self regulated, 30% CO regulated, 80% capacity just through the health of your relationships. Huge increase.

[B]

I have a lot of friends actually, including me, who are single.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Right. So how are they going to deal with this?

[A]

Is this asking for a friend? I get this a lot.

[B]

No, I'm. I'm thinking I have a lot of friends. I live in Austin. There's a big community of people who are seeking partners and things like that. I'm actually not looking for a girlfriend right now. Okay. I think I'm a little too busy for that. But I've had, you know, very successful relationships. And I just wonder though, that there are people who are feeling really lonely. There's almost like a desperation, like I really have to find the right person. A lot of people in their mid-30s who are at that, like, am I ever going to find the person? But how are they getting their oxytocin? How are they gonna, how are they gonna deal with the problem you just laid out?

[A]

That is a great question. Because most people today, in childhood, they're trained that no one's gonna take care of you, no one's gonna respond to your crying, no one's gonna come help you, no one really cares how you feel. You have to perform to please others. And if you don't, you get punish punishment based system where there's really no reward at all in our relationships. So most people feel either unrewarded in their relationships or unworthy in their relationship.

[B]

If they even have them.

[A]

If they even have them. So the problem then is they're starving. They're biochemically starving. And our, our system, we have a designed system now where you can open your phone and find a partner anywhere you want. You go to a new city, you just pop open any of the number of apps and you start scrolling like you're ordering off doordash for someone you want to have sex with that day or someone when you go on a date. What we're doing is we're trying to shop for the hormones that we cannot get in meaningless, disposable relationships. So we're trying to do a 40 to 50% system increase with one partner. Your partner is supposed to be maybe 15% of your system's well being overall as far as regulation. Your partner is not meant to be 15%.

[B]

Wow. So we're calling, we're actually overloading our partner with expectations. And. And men are doing this to women. Women are doing this to men. Equally.

[A]

Both. Yes.

[B]

Wow. So, okay, what's the fix for that?

[A]

We need family systems.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And when we look backwards, our family systems often are, are too scattered and too harmful to build from that. So we need to build forward into better family systems. Pseudo families. Right. It might actually be pseudo families. Adopted families. Throughout all of history, they've had adult adoptions. Right. You can even adopt another person as a sibling or a mentor adopts you as their child. But we need pseudo families to actually make a comeback and you don't have to. Okay. We're moving in together and moving our names, changing our names. It's. We recognize that we are going to function as almost a hunter gatherer tribe. We're going to build loyalty through vasopressin so all of our nervous systems calm down and regulate simply because we know the other person is there. We're going to build oxytocin so that we feel that rich, warm sensation of satisfaction. And we can get through each day feeling higher energy because we're with our tribe. Remember that hunter gatherers, they had had maybe 10 to maximum 30 people in their group. But if you're a solo hunter or gatherer of one, your system is supposed to be scared, it's supposed to be nervous, it's supposed to never sleep. It's supposed to be on the edge of death. So you should never relax or let your guard down. Wow. Your system is working. When you asked, like the brokenness, the system is working. People with 65% insecure attachment, it's working, right? It's performing correctly. We need to change the inputs and then we get the better outputs.

[B]

So then people who are single focus more on their community. Building their tribe, friends and family is everything. Got it?

[A]

Throughout all of human history, hunter gatherers, how do you think they found a mate?

[B]

Well, what I taught my kids was that when you turn 13, as your father, I'm going to become so stupid that you can't stand to be around me. So you're going to go to another tribe.

[A]

There we go.

[B]

Where there aren't dumb people around so that we won't become inbred.

[A]

There we go.

[B]

And now that my daughter's 18, my son's 16, I'm like, see, I told You. I'd be dumb. Right. So we would, though, find mates who were not in our immediate family.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

Right. So usually there was cross mixing of these communities.

[A]

Correct. So your hunter gatherer group, maximum 30 people, and you might have three to five other hunter gatherer structures around you. Other tribes of maximum 30, which gets us to about 150, which is Dunbar's number. We're only capable of 150 people worth of empathy mostly at a time rotationally. So we would connect and take care that, yes, we're making sure that we're bonding appropriately to the right people and mixing genetics as much as we can. But it would come filtered through your network. They were people you already knew. You knew the data on these people. You knew their history. You knew their family. So when they connected you, they had a reason to be kind to you, a reason to be polite. There was social grace, but also social pressure, appropriately for both of you. So you were protected. What we've got right now is young women and young men walking around today the equivalent of running around a dark forest alone, hoping that their life partner will spring out from behind a tree. And this. This stranger they have met is going to be the perfect match for the rest of their life and give them not 15% regulation, but 50% nervous system regulation.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

That's the insecure attachment effect that we're dealing with right now. And it's. It's hitting people in romance. It's hitting them in business. They're exhausted. They can't maintain their relationships effectively. They're driving away the best workers at their company. They attract people, but just burn through talent as fast as possible. It's hitting us at every level. This is human relationships. It's everywhere. Wow.

[B]

There's so many places to go from there. I. I do want to talk about the effect with employers, but what I noticed in the Austin area in particular, when I go to parties, pretty much all of them have a. A cuddle puddle.

[A]

Yes. I know what you're talking about, which.

[B]

I thought was kind of crazy when I moved there. But this is. One of the rooms at the party is basically a bunch of, you know, carpets on the floor, and people go in there and just kind of lay around and talk, but they're kind of piled on top of each other. And I think that's around oxytocin and vasopressin, right?

[A]

It is. Austin's a. Austin's a unique city because it's been a big influx. I have a lot of clients who come from them because it is a lot of traveling solo hunters and solo gatherers coming to one locked in place to then say we are all utterly alone. And so they're recognizing that now, unfortunately, they're mostly not building the skills necessary to actually interact successfully with each other and then have the new experiences that would reprogram the neural pathways in the brain to say I am lovable. I will be loved. I won't be betrayed. I have a tribe. The programming is not shifting, but they are at least, at least recognizing we are all alone in the same way. Way maybe we could make it work.

[B]

There's some pretty tight communities there I've become a part of which I very much appreciate.

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[B]

So let's take this down to I'm gonna go to this in mid-30s because so many listeners are at that age and that just seems like a time when people are, all right, I gotta find a partner now. And let's take this from the perspective of a male versus a female. So let's start with the woman. All right, so I'm single. I'm, I'm in a community. I have some friends. You know, what do I do to build secure attachment? Like, I feel like I'm going to die if I don't find my mate. But then you're saying, well, if you find your mate, you're going to drain them dry like a vampire because you're counting on 50% of your energy to come from them. And they're not meant to do that. So what would a woman do in order to shift her whatever's in order to be able to have secure attachment to attract a mate?

[A]

I like this question. We need to take even one step back because the mate she's going to select is going to be someone who expects emotional distance, someone who doesn't know how to be right up front with their desires and expectations. Why somebody? Well, with insecure attachment, you have to keep your desires and your goals hidden.

[B]

Oh, because she's insecure.

[A]

She's insecure. But the man she finds will also.

[B]

Be because she's unscathed.

[A]

She will find him. Yes, because she is. Secure attachment. When someone has it, they're going to be much more upfront with their desires and goals. Their, their nervous system is calm. Almost nothing is a threat. Their amygdala doesn't detect social threats in sharing and talking and conversing. They're also not biochemically starving, so they're not seeking approval or trying to create protective distance. They're just comfortable in the experience. They also won't over bond at the beginning because they're not starving. You know that old saying, don't go grocery shopping while you're hungry because you just get the junk food.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Don't go dating while you're biochemically starving.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Okay, so most women are out there biochemically starving. They find a partner that they can throw love and affection out. We call it the, the feelings and services model.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I will give you feelings, I will give you services in return, you will accept me and adopt me and take care of me and not betray or hurt me. So I am earning, earning that protection through what I'm doing. This is not secure attachment.

[B]

That seems pretty dark.

[A]

That is what most people are doing at 65 now, unfortunately, it's very dark. That's why depression rates are up, by the way, and anxiety rates and everything else. So women are out there selecting men who want to have feelings and services thrown at them because the healthier men, securely attached men say, whoa, whoa, Whoa. I don't want feelings and I want to connect with you as a human being. I want to hear about your goals, your desires. What are we building together? It's almost more of a co founding relationship of a life you're going to build together. She can't do that. She thinks that men don't like that. So she offers feelings and services as fast as possible. And he's the. The other men are scooping that up because that's what they're looking for. They just want that as fast as possible with no payback. So she's going to select the wrong partner whose brain says he's avoidantly attached. Emotional intimacy is dangerous. It gets me betrayed. Everyone eventually screws you over in the end. Don't let anyone in. And so she's performing endlessly to try to get in as her metric of I'm worthy by let you. Let you finally let me in so I'm good enough. And he's saying, I will never let anyone in ever. But let's have fun until it blows up.

[B]

Wow. Okay.

[A]

So that's why women are doing that. Unfortunately, they don't mean to be doing this, but they're also not filtering through. Family, friends. They hyper connect to this man and then show him off as a conclusion to anyone that might be in their life before they can even get advice. And they get angry if anyone advises her against him him because she's now biochemically addicted to him through intermittent reinforcement. Oxytocin, dopamine, she's addicted. And you, when you're addicted, you don't like people telling you that what you're addicted to is not good for you. Wow. So that's dating from the female perspective right now.

[B]

That pretty much sucks. Let's talk about it for men.

[A]

It also sucks for men. Men are split right now. And I was talking to Dr. Robert Glover recently about this. Men used to be mostly avoidant, lone wolf type, survival type, stay out of relationships type. But we've seen a shift now over the last several, well, decades of men being raised by single moms with a please mentality. I want to please you. If I please you hard enough, then you'll accept me. So men are shifting not to a feminine role, but a very effeminate role. The inappropriate presence of feminine where there should be masculine. So the men are shifting into a nice guy mentality, which means they're not providing any safety, structure, warmth, anything that the women are looking for. So they are downgraded as not men at all. They're downgraded to the level of traffic children that most women are seeing, meaning these women are seeing a choice between male children or heavily avoidant men who hate relationships, fear commitment, and won't let anyone in. And that seems to be the choices that most women are seeing. And men, those are the two roles that they see that they can fit into.

[B]

Okay, let's talk about how a woman would be able to shift out of that, and then we'll talk about it for men.

[A]

Sounds great.

[B]

Okay, let's. So tell me, how does a woman shift out of that dark dating world you just described?

[A]

Well, understanding that your biochemistry really is the beginning of everything you do. So first you've got to get your nervous system regulated through physical techniques, right? You talk a lot about regulation of nervous systems and things like this. And we need that, all of us. Our nervous systems are very bad right now. So regulation of nervous systems to begin with. And then number two is understanding that you have these beliefs deep down, understanding your core belief around attachment, around bonding. I am only worth what I do for others. I am only worth what I give them. It doesn't matter what my character is, only feelings and services. Therefore, people will see that I am not worth it or I will fall short, I'll be tired, I won't perform, and I will get abandoned. Right. That's. If that's your core belief, then you're going to panic every time you don't feel good. You're going to panic every time someone wants something. You're going to panic every time it feels like they're not paying attention to you. You're waiting for abandonment. And again, you're waiting for one magical prince charming to ride out of the forest and rescue you. What you need is a community of other women. First. You need healthy connection. Family if possible. Friends if not. Right. Community. It could be a religious aspect in a religious group of some kind. A healthy, good, safe one. By the way, the bad ones prey on people with attachment issues. They find them on purpose.

[B]

I mean, cults are fun.

[A]

Cults are fun at the beginning. They can be. But that's. That's what they build. Building a community first so that you are biochemically taken care of yourself. About 65% capacity. So that last 15% you can invest in a partner. And then you have to have a purpose. Why do I need a man in my life at all? A lot of women are asking this question, why do I need a man? What role would he fulfill? Well, we know now there's a whole system of roles that Men and women can play in healthy ways, back and forth. And I talk about it more like a CEO and a coo, co founders and co executives together, right? Working together as a team, specialized with our different brain types. And when a man provides a certain level of safety, the woman can in turn enter a peaceful state in her nervous system and return peace and refreshment and nourishment to him. And we work symbiotically, our nervous systems interlock. So understanding that that's what a healthy man wants from you is your character, your nervous system, your presence, your being, the pace that you bring. And finally, an executive partnership in life. That's what a healthy man is looking for. Not running around like assistant, fetching his coffee and making him feel good.

[B]

I mean, coffee is pretty good.

[A]

Coffee could be great, right? Yeah, a mean cup of coffee is worth something. But an executive partner in your life who steps up with you, challenges you on things where you're short, but also lovingly, gently challenges you so that you know you can rise because of her. That's executive partnership. And that's what healthy, securely attached men are looking for. Understanding, not to sell herself short and go to go to men who want.

[B]

Less than that makes a lot of sense. You talked about self regulation techniques for women in particular. What are the most effective?

[A]

By far the most effective is physical in your nervous system. Somatic experiencing techniques. Love this. It's, it's mandatory because we have our logical left brain, our emotional right brain, we get emotionally agitated. Logical brain dwindles and drops off. Emotional brain agitates, inflates even. It can cause seizures if it gets too bad, right? But the hind brain in the back is responsible for regulating your body. And if your body experiences intense, prolonged physical discomfort. Runners high, right? Heavy powerlifting sessions, Hot yoga. I teach a specific progressive muscle relaxation technique. If you can put pressure and significant stress in the body for long enough, the brain says I want to stop. And then the other part of the brain says we're not stopping. It can't distinguish what's going on, so it releases endorphins, drains your emotional brain to zero, restores full logical functioning. Now you can breathe and you can think. And if you do this proactively every day, in the morning or at night, so you get good sleep and a good day, your nervous system is calm and regulated, so you can keep it at a good 3 out of 10 instead of 7 out of 10 stress level.

[B]

So a heavy workout is good.

[A]

Heavy workouts can help, but it specifically has to put stress on your body that it can't adapt to. Okay, so cold showers is one example of this. Really hard to get used to. Cold showers every morning.

[B]

You sound like a biohacker.

[A]

All this correct? Biohacking. This is it. Like I said, I have a 13 minute script. I usually walk most of my clients through, but it's putting intense prolonged physical discomfort in your body.

[B]

Prolonged for how long?

[A]

Even 10, 15 minutes. Honestly, it's putting enough in that your body is hyper stimulated and says, what's going on? Am I freezing to death in a blizzard? I have to find warmth. Am I fighting a bear? Am I running away from an enemy? What am I doing? I don't have time for my emotions. Endorphins drain. Full logical functioning and eventually runners hit a point where they can't hit this anymore because they push too hard. But there's physical techniques you can do that you can continue using that do work.

[B]

And the relaxation practice, is this yoga nidra or something similar?

[A]

Nope. For me and my clients, I have them lie down and then they squeeze and then relax different body to pieces with diaphragmatic breathing to stimulate the vagus nerve in the chest so that that full relaxation through both means. So that's something like. That is what people should be using.

[B]

And you talked about building community for women with women. And this seems like it's so important. Even when people are married and all the women I know who have women groups, they are so much happier. Right.

[A]

Why is that? Women are supposed to be with other women. Yeah. Yes. You can have men in your life, you should have men in your life. But women specifically, there's an interesting process in the female brain is they actually understand how they think by talking it out loud with somebody else. And as they talk and process out loud, instead of with a therapist, now we have a paid confidant.

[B]

Or instead of with a guy who.

[A]

Doesn'T want it or who doesn't understand what you're doing. Yeah. Most men have no idea. But other women will listen and talk and share. And what's fascinating is as women are talking and sharing and processing, both of them are releasing oxytocin, which releases gaba, which suppresses cortisol. So the woman who's not stressed has a massive boost for her day. Her nervous system is even more regulated than it was before. And the woman who is stressed, her emotions drain and she feels loved and cared for. Oxytocin, but also vasopressin released when we solve problems with other people. So now she has loyalty. So if both of them mutually Take turns back and forth, sharing and commiserating and processing. Not only do they understand how they feel on a deeper level, but merge and build deep loyalty, intimacy, and connection. So they're biochemically resilient. Then they go back to their families. And the wonderful thing about oxytocin is it's compulsively addictive and compulsively outgoing so that you want to give it. So she's warmer for her family, she's warmer for her children, for her husband as she immerses him in his oxytocin and all that love and affection. And his oxytocin goes up, his gaba goes up, his cortisol comes down. He's able to relax after all the hard work he did or whatever else he was out doing. He can calm down in a way that men, we actually can't on our own. It's fascinating. We have to study kung fu in a Cave for 20 years to reach the level of calm that a woman can immerse us into in moments.

[B]

It's true. Women have that power.

[A]

They do, but only when they are calm and regular. Meaning the man has to provide a shelter of safety in the relationship. That is our role biochemically. Right. Is to provide safety for her on four key levels so that she can then immerse with her female connections and then bring that oxytocin back.

[B]

Wow. Okay. Four levels of safety that men provide for women. What are they?

[A]

Four levels. We'll go through them. Quick. One, physical safety.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Old days, a tiger will not eat you while I am in your presence today. Right. Walk on the outside of the road when you're with her. Protect her. Just scan. Right. If something goes bump in the night, don't send her with a baseball bat like you Go. Basic physical safety. Okay. Number two is resource safety. And this does not have to mean paying her bills. A lot of my clients, the women, actually make more men more money than the men do. And that's fine. But if something went wrong, who would step up?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If the banks all crash one day, who will go out and get resources? Society plummets. Who's going to get food? Who is doing it? Who's doing the hard things when life is on the line? Right? So we build a perimeter of safety. We go out of the perimeter, we grab the resources, bring them back into her. She stays in the perimeter of safety. Safety. Her nervous system is immersed and calmed. It's supposed to stay inside the perimeter so that she can be calm. It's not a controlling thing. It's optimizing her nervous system so that she can be at her peak. Okay, Number three, emotional safety. Most men don't know this exists, so they don't provide it. But it drives women up the wall. And after 15, 20, even 30 years, she gets angry and resentful that she's lived without emotional safety all this time. Emotional safety means she is safe to bring her emotions to him and be received graciously and worked through. And she is safe from his emotions. He's not going to explode, rupture, freak out, run away, give in to fear, abandon her because of it. His emotions are settled. He has them. But they're disciplined. And she is safe. Bringing those concerns to him, and that brings level four bonding, safety. He is showing her that he is vasopressin bonded by bringing challenges to her and working through them as an executive partner. And he is oxytocin bonded, meaning he's showing affection, warmth and intimacy. She has a unique role in his life that is not replaceable by another person. She's not dopamine feeding him. She's oxytocin, vasopressin bonded. She cannot be replaced. Those are the four levels of safety. And when she has that, her nervous system flips from sympathetic stress mode into parasympathetic rest and digest. And that's where she can return the four levels of peace to him.

[B]

Okay, the four levels of peace that women provide for men, where are they?

[A]

Four levels of peace. Number one, calm. A calm nervous system. If you work a lot, right? You work a little bit. Imagine a hypothetical. You come home, right? And there's a woman in your. You happen to live with a woman in your home. Okay.

[B]

I was married for 17 years.

[A]

Okay. What did your chest do when you walked in the front door? How did it feel when you would walk in the front door toward the end of that marriage?

[B]

Not that great, Right?

[A]

Right. Like, crunch, tight. Can't work. More work, it's more work. When a man walks back into the perimeter that he's established, it shouldn't feel like more work. It should feel like resting, coming home. So calm. She should have a calm, regulated nervous system.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Right. Calm, regulated nervous system. The inside of the perimeter is calm because he's making it safe. But she's regulating and creating that calm. She's radiating it. Level two is gentleness. This does not mean silence in any way, shape or form, but a gentle speech. Right. You see this in leadership. Hey, I see that you did this. Tell me more about that. It's a curiosity. It's asking questions. It's not. What were you thinking about? Not gentle.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Gentleness. He knows when he's in the perimeter, he's not going to get stabbed in the back, yelled at, barked at. It's going to be gentle and kind. Right. There's no enemy here. Which brings us to level three. Loyalty. Yes. Sexual loyalty. We'll put that over here. Right? We all understand this, but task based loyalty, when there's a challenge, does she immediately come down and say, okay, what is our plan? How are we getting through this? Or does she say, why did you do this? Why are you letting this bother me? I shouldn't have to. Is he the problem? Are they enemies or are they partners? Does she step in immediately and say, and lock in with him? Level three leading to level four, executive partnership. Can she challenge him using all three levels while staying calm, being loyal and being gentle? Can she challenge him? Can she call him out with accountability? The role of a woman is not to say, you're doing this wrong and here's what you should do about it. It's, I see a problem here. If he's a CEO, she's a coo. She's constantly looking for threats to the system building homeostasis. She's the thermometer. There are problems. She will bring him a list of challenges. Hey, I've noticed these challenges. I'd like for us to work on them. If you need my help, let me know. But here's what they are. And he should ask graciously, tell me more. I don't know some of these things. Tell me more. Explain what's going on. I will find solutions. I'll bring them to you, we'll deploy them together. But what's going on? That's four levels of peace that she brings back. Now that's when women, when men say, what do women bring to the table? This is what they bring to the table. Most men don't know that. They know the first two levels of safety that they provide and they don't know what a woman brings. Most men, when I work with them, I got like high ticket guys on my service, right? Working with a lot of billionaires, a lot of big company owners, business owners, high level executives. And I say, why do you want a girlfriend? I don't know. They say, I, I don't know. What do you think a woman should do for you? I don't know, Companionship. What does that mean, being with me? Well, how much, how much time in a week? Well, I only really have like 45 minutes. So you think you should have a wife so you can spend 45 minutes a week with her just looking at her? They have no idea. But those four levels of peace. Some of these guys choke up as I talk about this and say, what if a woman could bring you this? He says, I would give her everything.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

But that's secure attachment. Only possible when you build secure attachment.

[B]

And Your numbers show 35% of women are currently capable of secure attachment to some degree.

[A]

Yes. 35% of men, 35% of women are following secure patterns and beliefs. It can be changed. That's the magic I want everyone to hear, is this can be changed. Be changed. There are neural pathways that you formed as an infant and as a child when your caregivers didn't take care of you. But these can be changed through skills and experiences. That's it. You remap your neural pathways. You learn the new skills. You talk to a better person. They respond differently to you. Your brain floods differently with different hormones. It says, wow, that felt good. Do this again. You do it again. You do it again. You do it again. You loop and loop and loop. Your chemistry goes up and so does theirs. It's just a pattern that can be learned and changed.

[B]

That's. That's impressive. We talked about how women can change with those practices. How do men change so that they're more capable of secure attachment?

[A]

It's a little darker for men. I'll be honest with you. What portion of your audience here is men? You know them better than I do.

[B]

58 are women.

[A]

58 women. Okay, 42 men. That's good. That's a lot of men trying to learn. That's one of the biggest problems I hear a lot from women is I don't think there are good men out there anymore. I don't think men even care. They're not even trying. But a lot of men are trying.

[B]

There are lots of really good men out there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. A lot of tired men, too.

[A]

That's very tired. The biggest thing I want to flag for men, and this is. This is big for them, is we are not meant to do things in isolation. We have this concept that I am a one solo man, right? Lone wolf, Rambo, army of one. I have to find every solution alone. I have to deploy it alone. No one will ever watch my back. I can never rest. I can never let my guard down or people will fail me or betray me or get rid of me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's an old proverb up in Iceland. It says, bear is the back of a brotherless man. When you don't have a brother watching your back, you can't watch back there. There's no armor there. And we know this. So men need vasopressin. We have more receptors for it in our brains than women do. Men need loyalty bonds that are tested by cortisol and stress. We need to work together in teams with men and women to build and say, when I was stressed, you were there and you helped make it better. We release vasopressin, which is the chemical for loyalty, and then it creates a desire for oxytocin, where we bond so we feel rested and safe. Our nervous system settles down. We say, I am okay. I can sleep. There's people watching out for me. We have mutual fulfillment. So men need other men first. We need family and other men first. We can't go find it in a woman and fix our whole life with a girlfriend. That is not how this is going to work. Men must connect to other men. And through that, we can then get more solutions. We can make changes, we can solve problems. A lot of guys start this in the fitness world, right? They go find another guy. They get a mentor. He guides them through fitness. They do better. They bond to him, they bond to other guys. They share programs, more vasopressin bonding. Then they start talking about personal problems. They kind of share a little bit of that, maybe, and then they grow into it and say, wow, I wonder what else I can change. But they don't take the step beyond and say, I can go to my buddy. Right? Do you have a lot of male friends?

[B]

No, not really. I have a bunch of male friends. I probably have more female friends.

[A]

Okay. Do the male friends in your life have a hard time opening up to you about their challenges? Now you're an elevated guy. You might have better quality men around you.

[B]

I actually, a lot of them, where.

[A]

We talk about they're getting better about it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When you were younger, did they have. No.

[B]

Not at all. No. Not even a little bit. But yeah, I've. I've done a lot of work. And yeah, I have some. I have some conscious friends I'm grateful for.

[A]

Good. There's the difference. Most men have two images of sharing a problem with another man, One sobbing on the floor, pathetically looking like a joke. I'm stuck. I'm so unhappy. No one's ever going to help me, you know, woe is me, right? And everyone's going to lose respect for him if he tries to share. And number two, don't share. Just lock it Inside, pretend everything's fine, talk about sports. Sports, something else.

[B]

Yeah, I've been in both of those in times in my life. Yeah.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

For men, we have solution, focused sharing. We look back at the old tribal society. What would men be doing? Well, number one, they'd go on hunts together, Right. Solve problems together. And if they survived explosion of vasopressin. But number two, they come back, they sit by the fire and they say, I can't do what I saw. You did, you did there. I. My spear isn't sharp enough. How do you do that?

[B]

Right.

[A]

How did you do this? How did you do that? I can't achieve this. What about this? They'd have mentors and guides and they could ask men today, solution, focus sharing with their male friends. Hey, can I talk through something that I'm going with Right. I'm dealing with right now and maybe you could give me some perspective if you fixed it before or you have some tips or you know a guy. Let's just search for solutions together. And you do that and you talk it through for 15 minutes. Here's what I'm experiencing. Here's what I think I'm going to do about it. Do you have any data for me? Do you know anyone? Then you can flip it around and say, while we're here, is there anything that you're going through that we want to troubleshoot together? Men should be emotionally troubleshooting together, relationally troubleshooting together. Build that together with the other men. It builds release of vasopressin, oxytocin, trust, serotonin, everything. We need this.

[B]

So you're saying women need women's groups to talk and co regulate, process and process and men needs. And men need men's groups so that we can solve problems together.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Got it. It seems like there's not a lot of either one of those in the world right now. There's an epidemic of disconnection. According to the surgeon general was on the show talking about the only book he ever wrote about that.

[A]

I saw that. Yeah.

[B]

How do people go about finding a women's group or a men's group or forming one?

[A]

So this is where we're getting into trouble. Because in our hunter gatherer structure, you didn't have to.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It was your family and friends. It was built in. It was the surrounding tribes. You had this, you didn't have to build it. And then it fractured 110, 115 years ago. And it's. We never came up with intentional processes and everything we tried fell Through. Fell through. Fell through. So what we need to do is something called collaboration, right? Most people go out and say, well, I'm just going to start talking to my friends and see what they think, but they don't explain what they're trying to build. Explaining and getting investment and then moving forward together in cooperation. That's called collaborating. We will build this in collaboration. The biggest thing that men and women out there right now can do is calm your nervous system enough to deal with embarrassment to then go to other people in your life right now and say, hey, I was listening to this great podcast, right? And on it they said, we have to build intentional networks because everyone is so crushingly alone that we must build what we've never had to build before. Do you want to have different conversations with me instead of us having individual therapists and paying sometimes 5, $10,000 a month, a year? Can we talk to each other? Can we confide in each other? Can we build a loving, intimate, processing group of you, me, and just a few people we trust and build a little tribe here? I think it would do better for all of us, or men. Can we find some solutions together? We're building a brotherhood of solutions. We're going to fix it together. We're going to solve problems together, going to pool our knowledge, pull our intelligence, learn and grow, and we will beat everyone else. Core identity.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Right? Build these intentional little groups. One, two, three little people as you build them in. But tell them what you're doing and get their investment.

[B]

I'm a big fan of outsourcing, and I've noticed that some of my friends are what I would call super connectors, and they're uniquely gifted to forming groups like this.

[A]

Perfect. Yes.

[B]

Versus me doing it, where I'm probably uniquely retarded at doing that. Am I allowed to say that? I think that word is back on the. You can say that.

[A]

A lot of things are in flux right now. So I don't know.

[B]

I was in the. The special education program as a kid, so I'm just going to claim that I'm allowed to say that, but basically we'll say I'm not gifted at that. So is it a good strategy to find your friend who's the best connector and just ask them to do it?

[A]

You know, a lot of people don't have that person, but if you have that, that's amazing. Those people are great at building groups, but they're usually not great at vision. So providing them with this vision is your way of collaborating, right? In structures and in Structured tribes, there'd be separate people that would lead in different areas. Your friend is great at leading in the social area, but has no vision. You have vision, but you don't have the social skills in this area. Perfect. Put those together, you feed them the vision. They do some of the socialization work. And then as people fold in, now they have specializations too. That's this practice at work. Absolutely.

[B]

So let's assume we've got a bunch of guys pounding our chests and solving problems and a bunch of women knitting and talking about problems.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And how do we bring them together?

[A]

That's great. So we have to then branch out into our families, into friends, and people around us get connected. So if you're a single man, the best thing you can do is have a bunch of married men as friends who have really good, healthy wives. And as you show your good character to her husband and she sees that and hears it. Women love matchmaking.

[B]

This is true.

[A]

And she has a friend, she has a sister, she has a cousin, she has a best friend who also has a sister. She has this network. Healthy people love to network. Insecurely attached people are barely scraping out of survival, so you probably aren't going to network with them. Which is why this effect doesn't work in any insecure pool, but the secure pool of people they love to network. Because as people click in, the value goes up for everyone. It's win, win, win across the board. Everyone gets to benefit. So matchmaking through your networks is actually the way to make this work.

[B]

If I meet a random woman on the street, how would I know if she's a secure attachment woman or an insecure attachment woman?

[A]

That's a good question. So, number one, what does her nervous system show you from the outside? How fearful is she? Or how approval seeking, fawning we call it? How much does she cater to you immediately? How much is she afraid of you as you begin having a calmer conversation? Maybe on a first date? Is she just endlessly pleading for your attention? Is she locked up and barely able to talk? Is she afraid of questions and bothered by them? Is she afraid to ask you questions? Is she just pushing everything off and saying, well, I don't know what I want in relationships? I'm not really sure she knows. She's afraid to tell you because she's afraid that if she says, you're going to reject her. Wow. So is she on target with her goals, her desires, her plans, her character? Is she asking you about yours? Is she curious? Also, does she not overly bond Too fast in the first couple of days where she can't live without you after date two.

[B]

Yeah, that would be a big red flag, wouldn't it?

[A]

Big red flag. Physical warmth. She should actually be slower to let you even get in close. And she should tell you that up front. Hey, by the way, I'm a little bit slower than most people are you used to. It's just. It's just the rule, right? I don't. I don't get physical until we make sure we make a step together.

[B]

So how many days should happen before you get physical?

[A]

Well, it depends how physical, but I typically tell people at least 90 days.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Because you're going to get drunk on oxytocin and then your brain stops compatibility testing and says, I don't want to screw up a good thing, so let's not look at the problems. And then you stop doing what you're supposed to be doing in favor of just trying to get this, again, emotional starvation covered, which will erupt in your face at seven months when the novelty dopamine falls off a cliff and suddenly the bonding is gone.

[B]

So you recommend 90 Days of Kind of being friends in courtship before intimacy.

[A]

Yes. With intense conversation. Really intense, warm conversation about goals, desires, hopes, plans, laughing, telling stories. Emotionally and mentally, you should be bonding. But the physical will make you drunk. You will make bad decisions. Everybody. That always tells me, Adam sounds like a long time to wait. 90 days. Well, divorce is a lot longer than that. Unfortunately.

[B]

That it is. That is unusual vice. I don't think I've come across that before. Okay, so if that's how a man spots a secure attachment capable woman, how does a woman spot a secure attachment capable man?

[A]

That's a great question. You know, insecurely attached men have a plunge in testosterone of about 30 to 40%. We're trying to figure out if that's microplastics or lead or whatever it is. But it shows the research that your heavy level of nervous system trauma actually drops your testosterone past a certain age. It tanks really bad.

[B]

Stress will do that.

[A]

Yeah. Now, testosterone is not being big, angry, aggressive, having an angry scowl on your face. There's something called juvenile masculinity which is able to provide the first two levels of safety, physical safety, resource safety. If a man is beating his chest about physical safety and resource safety, how great he is in those areas, but he has no concept of emotional safety or bonding safety at all. Those are your flags that he's not securely attached. So you need to be asking him about his friendships, his family, his relationships, how his last relationship ended, what the problem was, is he paying attention to that? Right. How does he spend his time? What are his long term visions for life that he's trying to achieve and does he have a role for a partner in that? Or is it him achieving it alone while you stand nearby and watch? Right. What is his vision for a relationship? Why does he want to be together? And then very clearly asking him, does he want to get married? If that's something she wants, does he want to get married? That's something she should ask on date one.

[B]

So if the answer is no to that, does that mean he's an insecure attachment person if he doesn't want to get married?

[A]

It depends. Because I'm very, very aware about the laws of marriage during this country.

[B]

I will never touch marriage because I'm not stupid. I understand because I, I only, I only do consent based relationships between two parties in marriage. Today in the US there's a third party, a judge who violates what the two of us agreed with. So marriage, it's a bad institution in the US legally.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

But lifetime committed attachment relationships are beautiful. They just have to be consent based.

[A]

One thing that I hear a lot when people say screw marriage is they've had really bad experiences with the worst possible kind of marriage. Right. The partner was insecurely attached.

[B]

I didn't have a bad marriage. I mean, yeah, there were challenges, but we're, we, we, we separated in a conscious uncoupling. We're still friends, we're still supportive. We were co parenting and all that. We just didn't want the same things. But what I'm just saying is the legal side of marriage is so fraught with risk for both parties that it's dumb come like, like form a contract. That's marriage. Like that isn't in the courts and you're much better off.

[A]

Well, question then. You said that we didn't want the same things. Did you guys know that when you got married did you have that conversation up?

[B]

No, we did have some conversations but people evolve over time. Okay. Yeah.

[A]

One thing I'm an advocate for marriage on is the reason we have an outside arbitrating thing and it shouldn't be the government. Our current system is broken beyond belief. But we do need a third party that can step in if we are agreeing to co found something together.

[B]

I agree with that.

[A]

That's what I think marriage is supposed to be is co founding a well defined life together. That's the only place that's a beautiful.

[B]

Vision I'm all for that.

[A]

There we go.

[B]

Yeah, I just don't want a bureaucracy. I have the DMV telling me what I'm allowed and not allowed to do when we've both consented to split 50. 50.

[A]

I get out of my face when you are separating. That's one thing is we do need an arbitrating system that says, hey, you guys said you believed in this. If it's bad feelings temporarily causing you to split, that's not okay, right? Yes. We need to have a system where we can figure out what to do and resolve it 100%. The system's broken now. It's. It's one more casualty of the last 110 years. And at the same time, we still need a system where we can get together and intentionally build those families, but also then take each other to the next level. Right. Lifelong partner who always sees you and always has your back. But there's the piece. Only secure attachment can build a good marriage where people are going to flourish together. Otherwise we will grow apart. We will want separate things. We'll evolve in different areas. We won't have those unifying vasopressin bonds. We have to renew vasopressin at least every six months.

[B]

Oh, how do you do that?

[A]

It's doing tasks together, learning things together, learning skills, achieving goals together. Most couples today split apart after they get married and start growing in different areas because they're never vasopressin bonding. So now they're, they're isolated. So it's not co executives, different companies.

[B]

A big of a task.

[A]

How often anything a jigsaw puzzle is vasopressin bonding. If you sit into a jigsaw puzzle for half an hour while watching a movie or paying off a debt or raising your children, then getting together once a week to talk about how their growth is or building your finances, building inheritance, building a company. Right. My wife is at home right now homeschooling our five kids. She's pregnant with baby number six, but she's holding on the floor. Thank you. And when I get home, we're going to talk about what I've achieved here for our family and what she achieved as well. But then we fit those together. It's not her life and my life. It's our life that we're co building together. There's more vasopressin. So it's your brain marking. We did this together over and over and over. It could be as simple as reupholstering your favorite chair. It could be taking dance classes. It could Be learning a skill, gun safety, anything, as long as you're doing it together. So your brain says, we're surviving together, we're allies, let's stick it out. Otherwise we split apart, create separate lives. And then we say, man, we grew apart. We just don't have the same things in common anymore. And then it turns into a battleground with the state. 100 agree on that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Vasopressin makes the difference.

[B]

Okay. Vasopressin it is. So shared tasks. That is a really cool relationship. We'll call it a hack. Why not?

[A]

Yeah, cool. I teach people, treat your marriage like a business. Have business meetings once a week and once a month. And once a year, your anniversary should be a yearly annual update on the well being of the relationship and then how we're going to grow together in the next year.

[B]

One of the things that I've shared when I'm doing relationship coaching with people is that someone needs to be the CEO of the relationship.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And in all of our conversations, it's been the men so far. So does the man always the CEO of the relationship?

[A]

Most of the time. Okay. Absolutely. Most of the time. Now remember that they are both equal co founders. So this is not a relationship based on value.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The man is not smarter, better, blah, blah, blah. He is specialized with a nervous system that is designed to go outside of the perimeter, face fires, build solutions, and then come back and help implement them. So his job is to be more stressed than anyone else. Women don't usually want the job to be more stressed than everyone else in the house. They usually want to outsource that to the man whose nervous system is built for it. Right. Women are uniquely suited. Quite often because of their brain. They observe in the back and then go back and forth across the hemispheres to analyze data. Men's brains observe in the back and leap forward to act upon that data immediately. Solving CEO. Right. CEO, Chief Operations Officer is better at analyzing, bringing problems and then implementing solutions. But the CEO builds the solution. It's just different brain types now. Maybe 2 or 3% of the people I work with, they invert those roles. The woman is better as the CEO. The man is happier and better as the CEO. And they're genuine. They aren't. They aren't violating masculine, feminine polarity. Together, it's a genuine change. And that's possible. There's also seasons of life. Right? There's seasons of life where the CEO may take an advanced step and say, for now, I'm going to be leading this area. Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. But Again, stress on the man. Pace for the woman. Integrated.

[B]

Got it. The context where I've seen that most is around. There's a. The health of the relationship itself and there's activities that support that. That requires planning. Right. And I think maybe when I'm talking about the CEO of the relationship, it's managing the relationship, not necessarily the entire partnership. That sounds like that's the same as the CEO you're talking about.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It can be. The woman's job is to constantly run scans on the relationship and tell him how it's doing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then he needs to do something about that. If he says, well, cool, what are you going to do about that? That's not him being a CEO. That's him making her do both jobs while he sits there with his feet up on the desk.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

Not appropriate. He should be leading. She flags a problem, he solves the problem.

[B]

Is there a special kind of desk we should put our feet up on?

[A]

You should have both your feet on the desk together. At the end of the day, that's what you're doing.

[B]

This is fascinating. Are you hopeful for the future?

[A]

Are we talking short term future or long term future?

[B]

Tell me both.

[A]

Short term future is going to be tough. It's going to be a challenge. Right. We are seeing a lot of populations that are having a very hard time correcting. There's a lot of people that are going to be listening to this saying, it's impossible. Adam. There are no good men. I'm just going to be angry for the next 10 years. And men saying, well, women don't bring anything anyway.

[B]

Yeah. Angry women are really attractive. They bring great mates. Right, Right.

[A]

And bitter men who are resentful. They're fantastic fathers. Right? Totally. There's a lot of people out there that unfortunately are probably going to pass away without having children. We're going to see a condensing of family lines. We're going to be a ca. Cutting down of the population, most likely.

[B]

Well, it's. The numbers are already in.

[A]

Oh, it's horrific.

[B]

Empty cities are coming in our lifetime.

[A]

Absolutely. And worse than that, probably. But I will say this. Worse than that mean worse than that. Empty cities is one thing, but people utterly giving up and entire populations, even entire countries just being decimated and just dying. Right. Right now in Italy.

[B]

Of loneliness.

[A]

Of loneliness. But in Italy they can't even keep the young people in the country anymore. They're fleeing for anywhere else they can can go. Imagine when Italy is a wasteland and all of Italy is just Gone. Rome, just empty.

[B]

Well, people will move in.

[A]

Right. But who, Who?

[B]

Right now it's like mostly Syrians.

[A]

Well, it's going to be people with families. Right. People who are still having families. People who still have a. A tribalist culture of some kind, but a new tribalist culture.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I think the future is going to belong to people who have secure attachment because it's the highest form of wealth you can have. Human loyalty is going to create groups where you survive together, biochemically survive together.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I think that I'm not. I'm not a doomsday kind of person that says, you know, the apocalypse is coming. I think a social emotional culling is coming.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Where people are going to prune the family tree. And I think some groups are going to thrive and other groups will disappear. And I don't even mean groups based on ethnicities. I just mean pockets of people.

[B]

So what are the pockets most at risk right now?

[A]

Ground zero, L.A. new York, Austin, Paris. Big cities where a lot of my clients reside because it feels like a wasteland to them. New York City, I call it cultural ground zero for emotional relationship attachment pieces. It's a. It's like an emotional bomb has gone off there. Wow. It's. It's brutal in New York City. Most of my dating advice to people in New York City is leave. And it has one of the biggest populations on Earth, but so many people there are so biochemically in their nervous system damaged and don't believe it's possible to fix it. So they get into a relationship and make their nervous system your problem. You are my partner, therefore you now owe me nervous system regulation. Where they're anxious, attachment, avoidant attachment. Men, women, you owe me. You will regulate my nervous system or you are a bad partner. And that's New York City dating right now. And I think New York City is going to be one of those areas that just gone.

[B]

It's very hard to have kids in New York anyway.

[A]

It's hard to have kids anywhere right now, unfortunately.

[B]

Yeah, that is for sure.

[A]

Families going forward, the future belongs to those who show up, but it especially belongs to those who show up together.

[B]

I. I moved to an island to build a farm to raise my kids on because that seemed easier than trying to do it in a big city.

[A]

No kidding. How they do it now?

[B]

My kids are fucking amazing.

[A]

That's awesome. And they have each other, right? They do have you. The family system made a difference. That's why they're going to go forward in the top probably 5 or even 2% of people. Because they know what a healthy relationship feels like.

[B]

I hope so.

[A]

So now they get divorced. Well, there's. There is that. But you can intentionally have conversations with them about that.

[B]

We have.

[A]

And I'm sure. Yeah, I was gonna say. So going forward, they know what it feels like to be loved, really loved. They know what healthy people are looking for from them. Not feelings and services, but good character and real connection. Now, they can offer that and not settle for less, but they can also attract partners who want that. They can signal correctly to those people and then they can grow forward. And their children will never have nervous systems like you and I have. Their nervous systems are calm and settled from birth and they come out very, very different, which is fantastic. So those people are going to be the ones building the future. I don't think our children will be. I think maybe our grandchildren or great grandchildren will.

[B]

So as the population shrinks enough, then family units and tribal units will re emerge with vasopressin and oxytocin.

[A]

It will have to.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

It will have to. But it's only going to work for those people. Vasopressin and oxytocin bonding with secure attachment are going to be the biggest form of wealth in the future for the next at least 50 years.

[B]

So if you were in charge of the government, what would you change to fix this?

[A]

Get the government out of our lives in as many places as possible. Number one. Right. Was it Ron brother? Right. Was it Ronald Reagan that said the scariest language, the scariest words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I'm here to help?

[B]

Yes. Right.

[A]

It gets worse. Government is not supposed to be fixing anything. So if government does do anything, if I did actually, if they pulled me in, it would be to empower grassroots local groups, small city based structures where they teach families how to. To bond. Right. I'm right now working with my business partners to build an institute to try to teach attachment everywhere. We say that attachment is the science of human bonding. And we're trying to teach everyone on the planet how to bond because almost everyone has forgotten.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So if we can just teach people how to bond and they can go out and help other people bond and they can connect locally, that's what's going to make a difference.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Our target is 1 billion people securely attached over the next 40 years. God will. 40 years to get a billion people. But I'm not going to personally help a billion people. It's going to be people listening, going and having a conversation like we talked about it's going to be taking those steps and talking to the people around you and then you both grow and become secure together. I had a client the other day that said the only secure relationship they've ever had is with their fitness trainer over the last three years. And it's been transformative just to have a secure relationship. To talk honestly with another human being for three years with a fitness trainer, that has been transformational for them. Imagine a good trusted friend that you could troubleshoot with once a week or process with instead of a therapist where you dump your feelings on a professional that's never going to be reciprocated and your brain is tricked into thinking they love you. Putting it with a friend who you can invest in lifelong and they can come to you too. That's a shift people need to make. Go from your therapist to a trusted friend.

[B]

There's a lot of people doing this with their AI.

[A]

That is a new danger that people are facing, and I think that's going to be part of the culling. AI has a great place in helping, but it must then point you back at humans. If we integrate just with AI, we pour into it just like a therapist. But worse, it's a false front and then it builds nothing and then we die out.

[B]

It. It seems like trying to co regulate with a narcissistic therapist who can't co regulate.

[A]

Right. Well, it's an evolutionary cul de sac.

[B]

You just.

[A]

You close off evolution just, okay, we've selected you out. You will simply never breed and you will die. And if you have kids, they'll probably select out. Right. It's evolution calling you out.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And that's what AI is. It's one more thing of calling out the people who are not capable of bonding. Remember that originally a lot of humans probably couldn't do this attachment bonding. We had to form this oxytocin vasopressin bonding through all of our genomic sequences. And the ones who did it best survived. The ones who did it most poorly died.

[B]

Yeah, they got eaten.

[A]

Mostly they got eaten or they wandered off into the forest. We have oxytocin to make us addicted to our connections so that we won't leave our group, so that we're more likely to survive and raise better children. We are addicted to healthy relationships because it enhances survival, but it rewards us. It's a good, positive addiction. We're supposed to be.

[B]

This is fascinating. Is there a healthy attachment scorecard?

[A]

Is there.

[B]

Is there a quiz? Is there a personality assessment? That's going to tell this, you know, can we put it on our Hinge profiles?

[A]

We do. I do.

[B]

I've never been on Hinge. I don't have a profile but I'm guessing it would go there.

[A]

That's a good question. So I'm actually running one of the biggest research collection systems right now in the history of attachment on my website where we do have a free attachment styles assessment where you can look at what your attachment is. It's relationship behavior based questions that you go through a lot of them. I'll just warn you right now. It's very comprehensive and it shows you what your style is but also tells you some next steps you need to take. Because wherever you are, it's just a beginning place. You need skills and experiences.

[B]

This is AdamLane Smith.com AdamLaneSmith.com okay. And by the way, Dave Asprey 10 if you want to get a discount on some of the bundles. But that assessment is free.

[A]

The assessment is free, okay. And it walks you into things. We have self paced programs, we have my coaches that I'm certifying. I'm trying to fix that therapy problem. That therapy has bloated up into. It is now a religion, right? And we're trying to say fix your relationships, go talk to people in your life and build real relationships so you don't need us anymore. That's what we're trying to cultivate with the coaching system. So we want people to get better. I have five kids, six is on the way. I need them to have friends, I need them to have people to marry. I need them are my grandkids to have people to marry. If the population does this and everyone's unhealthy problem, if the population becomes healthier, my kids can thrive. So this is personal for me.

[B]

It's personal for all of us. Because even if you're one of the secure attached people and you're relatively happy, if you're living in a world full of miserable, victim minded, angry people, it's not as good of a world. They're part of the environment around you that programs, you know.

[A]

Especially if you're 30% capacity energy every single day exhausted and hate your life, life and you feel alone all the time and you're surrounded by all those people. So internal and external is bad. It's hell. This is hell for many people.

[B]

It does feel like there, there ought to be like a secure attachment scorecard that, that says look, I'm certified. If you're in the dating pool you'd be like look I've done the work. Here's the classes I did, here's my score. And when you do this magic AI assessment thing, it says, I'm, you know, 7 out of 10 on secure attachment, but I'm aware and I'm working on it. Like, I'd probably go out with a woman who showed me one of those.

[A]

I might have to build one of those over the next 30 years, as people say, okay, we have AI.

[B]

It'll take you 10 minutes.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

We'll vibe code it right now.

[A]

Biggest thing if we. If we want a scorecard like that is questions securely attached. People ask a lot of questions, and they love receiving questions because it's a chance to be known and share information, but it's also a chance to learn. It's one of the biggest markers I have found for secure attachment is people who ask questions. Like you. People who ask a lot of questions and are not afraid of the answer because they're here to learn, and they also want to share information with the other person. Insecure attachment fears. Questions because we were punished for asking them, we were punished for answering them wrong. We're afraid of being vulnerable, exposed. Visible questions are terrifying. Questions, questions, questions. It's the biggest flag.

[B]

Got it. So if you see. I see a lot of, like, weird social media stuff that comes up for some reason on my feed where there's, you know, people identifying red flags on dates. Right. And usually people ask a lot of questions. They say those are the red flags. But you're saying the people who are complaining about the questions are the red flags.

[A]

Yes. There's. There's certainly, like, people in New York that will ask you really litigating angry questions of, I demand to see your bank account on date one. I've heard of that. Plenty of my clients have that.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Oh, yes.

[B]

That's hilarious.

[A]

Oh, yes. Women are not winning any favors by asking men.

[B]

Most disrespectful answer a man could provide to that question.

[A]

The disrespectful answer a man could give to a woman asking to see his bank account. Yeah. Usually just to get up and leave without speaking.

[B]

I mean, the.

[A]

But that's a good response. I think the se.

[B]

That's the appropriate response. The seventh grader in me would be like, well, if that's the case, then, like, turn around and let me see your ass. Like, they're both entirely inappropriate questions.

[A]

It is. What are you offering in exchange for money? Like.

[B]

Like, that's.

[A]

I hear that.

[B]

That's horrifying. I. I Cannot imagine that. If someone did that, I would say that I'd be like, we're done. Like, I have better things to do.

[A]

Right. But people are very explicit about their red flags. And here's the thing is everyone wants to look for red flags. No one wants to look for green flags.

[B]

Okay, so tell me some green flags.

[A]

Green flags again. Asking more questions, being more open, Having a desire for something. Right? Like, what do you want? Why do you want to be in a relationship? Is a great question. Hey, we're on a date. The assumption is we're interested in a relationship. Are you? Number one. Right. And number two, what does a relationship mean to you? What are you hoping for with a relationship? What would I. What would I be doing if I. If I'm interviewing in your company, what would I be doing here? What would we be doing together? What are you looking for? Right. They better have an answer. They better have an actual answer instead of, well, I don't know, we'll spend time together. Just feel good. No, like, hey, you know, I want to build these things. I'm looking for someone that can call me out, someone that can spend time with, someone I can bounce ideas off of. I want someone that works alongside me, someone who's got passion and energy, someone that I can share this adventure with. I want to grow this family or I want to grow this company, or I want to be something. What are we doing together? If they don't have a vision of you in their life, leave. Because they're not going to make space for you.

[B]

You talked about working alongside someone. I've coached both in business and in relationship things. A few couples who work together and many, many more who say, I would never work with my spouse. It seems like working together is a way to screw up a marriage and a company.

[A]

Not every couple is going to be able to work in a. In a business together. But running your marriage like a business business means you will be working alongside.

[B]

I agree with that.

[A]

Okay. My wife and I would never go into actual business together because, well, she's not interested. She's happy with playing with the kids and building that. But we are co founding a life and a legacy together. Legacy is what this comes down to. Right? You asked me before about someone who doesn't want to get married doesn't mean they don't have secure attachment. Well, no, but how are they then protecting their legacy? Marriage is one of the best vehicles for protecting legacy if it's done right.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Legacy then is the ultimate thing. Your children, your grandchildren, the people you're helping you with this show. Like Giant Legacy marriage should, if you're, if you were ever going to get married, it should enhance your legacy. That is the only condition under which you should ever get married again is if it would enhance your legacy and.

[B]

If we could do it in a jurisdiction that didn't have judges who thought they had any say in my agreements.

[A]

I hear that, I hear that. But, but that's at the end of the day, legacy is what matters.

[B]

Right? I hear you on that. I want to ask a different question. I talked about this for people you know, mid-30s and under. Right. And there's a set of answers there. I also have a lot of friends who are, we'll call it between 50 and 65, and a lot of women who are gorgeous, wealthy, successful, some divorce, some never marry, but most of them divorced who are saying, I can't date anyone. Like there's no one interested what's going on there and what should they do about that?

[A]

Well, if they're divorced, they probably fall into what I call the exhausted wife category where she did not have emotional safety for 20 years. She invested deeply into that man and he didn't return any of that emotional connection to her. She raised the kids, she did her tour of duty, and she was so biochemically starved by the end of it that she'd been emotionally divorced for two or three years before she filed papers. That's usually the pattern and they usually don't come out of it and then say, okay, what did I do wrong? It's usually, he did everything wrong and I did everything right. And that's where I have a lot of trouble helping those women in that population. Now, most of them have very good hearts and they, they just genuinely don't understand that attachment works differently. They go out and say, okay, how can I then take care of someone else differently so that he'll love me? And that's. They're not going to find a healthy man at that point. Right. How do I find a man who is building his legacy right now, who I don't have to invest at ground floor. I can step in as he's already in his 50s and 60s building that legacy. How do we merge our legacies so that we have an exponential increase? How do I boost our legacy together and how do I grow that together?

[B]

It does feel like it's different at different stages of life. If someone is around that even 45 post, if they've had a long term relationship and if they've built some kind of company or legacy or career or something like that. It feels like the standards and the markers for what you're saying, they're a little bit different. If you're coming together when you're young, let's grow this together, because we're starting from nothing. But if you have two people who already have substantial assets and legacies, what does emerging of that look like? And how does secure attachment play?

[A]

Yeah. So back to Dr. Robert Glover. He's a great example. Right. He's. He's older. He's been in this field for 40 years. He did a lot of the foundational pioneer work on attachment for men. He recently got remarried as well. And she gives him. I've talked to him about it. He gushes on her. She gives him energy to do his work. He's launched a whole new network for men out there growing on that. I'm thinking of a lot of other older men that I know also that a woman steps into their life and enhances them. So he has a second wind in his life. His nervous system calms and regulates sometimes for the first time in his life.

[B]

These are older men with younger women.

[A]

No, same age women.

[B]

Same age.

[A]

Same age with good experience, good wisdom. Right. Her nervous system is settled. She wasn't settled when she was 25. 30. Right. Her nervous system is calm and regulated. She has a regal sense of connection at this moment. So he enters her presence and it's just a wall of peace. And it allows him to then step forward with mentorship of other people. He can speak to, that he can teach people. He has energy, his focus. She's enhancing his legacy as he steps into that mentorship part of his life. Same age. Not. Not 20, 30 years lower. That's. That's a whole other game. But when she's stepping in at his level and they support each other, he. They are both still growing. Now they get to come together and say, how do I better support you in your work that you're doing? Wow.

[B]

So you would advise people at 50 plus, let's say, to look for someone about their same age, roughly.

[A]

We know that that plus or minus five years is the perfect target window for people to be happy in relationships, Men or women, plus or minus five years.

[B]

Got it. So it's not divide your age in half and add seven.

[A]

No, actually, I've heard that, but I'm, you know, I'm not attracted. When we see that, we see that a lot.

[B]

But if.

[A]

If that's been a divorce, we know that something catastrophic happened in their marriage. And I'm not, I'm not down on people who have age gaps, by the way.

[B]

Sometimes it's beautiful.

[A]

Yeah, but, but we know that that's been a missed opportunity there. Something went wrong in the pair bonding there. Something went wrong in their, their co created legacy. Something went wrong and they just most of the time didn't know what to do.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it's, it's a sad marker of that destruction. It's one more casualty. So if we can weave together to build those legacies going forward as people do in their 50s and 60s, right. That's when you cement your legacy. That's when you're mentoring people. That's when you have so much wisdom to give. The world needs you more at 50 and 60 than they needed you at 20.

[B]

That's one of the reasons longevity is important to me is if, if we have the wisdom of age and the energy of youth, maybe we'll fix some.

[A]

Well now imagine if you had a woman step into your life completely calm at all times. You walk into her presence, yeah, you feel calm, right? She's gentle in her speech. She is unwaveringly loyal to you in every way. Problem comes up, she steps right up to you and says, how are we going to fix this? What are we doing right? But an executive partner who gently calls you out anytime you fall short. You told me last week that this mentorship was everything to you. And now here you are, right? You're kind of waffling at the moment. What's going on? What's happening here? Talk to me, I'm here, right? Who do you maybe who do you need to talk to? She's gently calling you out and moving you forward. Imagine a woman like that in your life for the next 30, 40, 50 years. What could you achieve with her at present?

[B]

You make a good point. In fact, I think most guys listening would go, yeah, that, that sounds like a good thing. Where do I find that that's supposed.

[A]

To be a wife? Anything short of that is not actually a wife. Anything short of that is someone that you've formed a contract with, but you might not be doing your job so that she can't do her job. That's the flag I want to raise for most men. Four levels of safety to get four levels of peace.

[B]

What a beautiful framework, a beautiful conversation. My final question for you, and I hear this a lot from people, actually several women who are in my longevity program called Unlimited Life, very successful women. And they're in that same thing saying, I'm just not finding guys who want to date me in my age range because they all want to date younger. So they're starting to date men 10, 15 years younger. And I'm hearing this all over the place where there's interest from men and the women are saying, well, I kind of thought I wasn't supposed to do that, but I'm kind of liking this. Are you seeing that and is that going to work out from a, from an attachment theory perspective?

[A]

You know, generally speaking, those relationships have the most instability eventually. Generally speaking, those relationships attract men who are looking for an authority figure in their life to provide safety for them. It's not generally not what women want, right? No. It's a lot of women who've been hurt, who don't want to get hurt again, and they have good intentions. Yeah, right. But it's not the basis for a long term stable relationship that's pleasing to both with a few very choice outliers who can make it work. By and large again, plus five or minus five, plus or minus five years is the best dynamic that we know.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Men or women. By the way, men shouldn't be marrying women half their age either. That's not.

[B]

I, I tend to agree. That doesn't usually work out the best.

[A]

It just doesn't. Now, now I will say women at that age don't date on websites, don't date on the apps, don't find guys on the apps who are 55, 60 years old. That is catastrophically bad. Date through your community and network. Most of those women haven't really grown the community network they need or they're not networking properly to find a partner. Find me a husband is the message that should go out echoing across your entire network.

[B]

Wow. And so you have to build the network and be in the women's groups and be in your community and be in your church and all those sorts of things.

[A]

Most of those women were very isol isolated. Now they're connecting to other women who are also not happy. Connect to happy, thriving women and then put out the call.

[B]

You just opened a can of worms there.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I have seen women join women's groups full of angry, victim, bitter, and then it spreads.

[A]

How do you stop that?

[B]

And also in men's groups, I'm sure it's the same. I don't know.

[A]

Oh, yeah, women's groups. Well, women's groups are known for doing that effect. So we have to actually stop women's groups and therapy areas a lot because they are more destructive. Men don't do that as much. Women definitely do in a lot of ways. So every woman out there, if you're in those groups, like a Facebook mommy group or something and it's cat leave, just leave. There is no fixing it. Don't stay, don't try, no, don't try to repair it. Build a tiny group on your own with two people. It's way better than a 50 person group of angry miserable people. Take a choice group of people who are healthy. Get out, build your own group.

[B]

And you'd say two up to max of what, 15 or something.

[A]

Maximum 15 maybe in a tribe, maybe 30 at the absolute upper limits.

[B]

But got it.

[A]

It doesn't have to be much. The research is fascinating. The two or three great people in your life make all the biochemical difference. It's the vast majority of your 30 CO regulation comes from two or three people.

[B]

That is. That's incredible. And what powerful advice Adam. Thank you for coming on the show guys. Adam Lane Smith use code Dave Asprey 10 if you want to participate in any of the bundles, but do the survey figure out where you are, how securely attached are you, and if you're not, maybe you should do something about that. See you next time on the Human Upgrade Podcast.

[D]

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