Why Breathwork Feels Like a Euphoric Drug | Biohacker Tips : 1369

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Human Upgrade: Biohacking for Longevity & Performance
Host: Dave Asprey
Episode: Why Breathwork Feels Like a Euphoric Drug | Biohacker Tips : 1369
Guest: Ishaan Shivanand, spiritual teacher and founder of Yoga of Immortals
Date: November 25, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the transformative power of breathwork and meditation for human longevity, consciousness, and performance optimization. Dave Asprey hosts Ishaan Shivanand, a meditation master and founder of the Yoga of Immortals, for an in-depth exploration of ancient biohacking methods—breathwork, chanting, visualization, and spiritual approaches to life extension. The episode connects timeless spiritual practices with modern longevity science, discusses practical steps for mind-body upgrading, and contemplates the deeper meaning of immortality, consciousness, and death.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Four Pillars of Meditation Training (02:45–04:58)

Ishaan Shivanand describes the stages of meditation and spiritual training:

• Chanting Mantras: “The first thing... is chanting mantras. That takes the mind into a state of... trance, hypnotic.”—Ishaan (02:53)
• Visualization: Methodical, detailed visualizations to build mental focus and awareness.
• Awareness Training: Bringing consciousness into the body (foundation of Yoga Nidra).
• Breathwork: Harnessing prana (life force) to control physiological and energetic states; advanced practice leads to out-of-body experiences.

“With breath work, you can learn to take your prana—your life—to certain parts of the body. In advanced stages, you can learn to leave the body and go to some other dimension.” —Ishaan Shivanand (04:46)

2. The Science, Utility, and Joy of Chanting (05:05–08:53)

• Dave reflects on Western approaches to meditation and the tendency to skip foundational Eastern practices like chanting.
• Ishaan equates chanting to an enhancer—like “guacamole” for meditation:

  “You could do without guacamole. But then what is a sandwich without avocado?” —Ishaan (06:00)

• Chanting = Vibration: Ancient mantras are about sound frequencies, not words or meanings—tapping into fundamental creative vibrations that transcend culture or belief.
• Cross-cultural resonance: Parallels with biblical phrases (“in the beginning, there was the Word”) and Vedic texts.

3. East–West Wisdom, Ancient Universities, and the Roots of Biohacking (09:11–14:42)

• Discussion of legendary knowledge routes (e.g., Silk Road, ancient Indian universities) and how wisdom traditions—East and West—intertwined.

• Dave credits his trip to Mount Kailash for conceptualizing biohacking after experiencing Tibetan butter tea (“inspiration for Bulletproof Coffee”).

• Notable moment: Ishaan humorously describes his first experience with coffee as a medical enema, then realizing its benefits orally—especially when combined with fat:

  “When I put fat in [coffee], then it was calm. The coffee could match my consciousness.” —Ishaan (13:09)

• Dave shares the scientific rationale for fat in coffee improving cellular energy—a connection between ancient practice and modern science.

4. Visualization Techniques for Meditation (22:41–25:52)

• Ishaan teaches a simple but powerful visualization:

  “Take your awareness to the top of your head and visualize a light... Inhale, gently take that light down like a golden arrow to the base of the spine... Exhale, the arrow goes up. If I do this for a few minutes before I sleep, it will help calm my mind.” —Ishaan (24:00)

• For advanced practice, he discusses complex forms like Sri Yantra and geometric visualization as tools for manifestation and dematerialization.

5. Gold’s Symbolism & the Student-Teacher Tradition (26:18–29:41)

• In Ishaan’s lineage, gold as a metaphor for the qualities of an ideal spiritual student:

  • Shine (gratitude)
  • Malleability (openness to learning)
  • Indestructibility (steadfastness in purpose)

• Notable quote:

  “You must shine like gold. And shine like gold means gratitude... The purer it is, the more malleable it is... Gold is gold—doesn't change, doesn't corrode.” —Ishaan (27:12–27:42)

• Ancient Indian and European (alchemy) traditions both use gold as a metaphor for consciousness transformation.

6. Breathwork, Psychedelics, and Modern Shortcuts (31:00–36:22)

• Dave asks if biohacking tools (breathwork, sounds, psychedelics, neurotech) are “cheating.”

• Ishaan’s cautious wisdom:

  • Plant medicines are powerful but not for recreational/shortcut use. Need deep respect and qualified guidance (citizens vs. tourists of those realms).

  “You don't want a junkie being your anesthesiologist.” —Ishaan (32:16)

• Dave agrees, highlighting careful, lineage-based use of psychedelics for growth rather than escapism. Technology can help but tradition matters.

7. Death, Immortality, and Choosing Your End (40:05–48:35)

• The art of conscious dying (ichamrityu – choosing death) vs. the Western tendency to avoid, fight, or numb the dying process.

  “Death is the most important journey you'll make. You have to be alert, fully conscious.” —Ishaan (41:32)

• Kayakalp and age reversal—stories from ancient texts about reversing aging and regenerating the body.

• Dharma as the key to blessed immortality vs. the curse of endless suffering.

“Your immortality becomes the biggest blessing if you are in a state of joy, bliss, ecstasy, and enlightenment, choosing to do dharma... Otherwise, imagine madness forever.” —Ishaan (46:27)

8. The Real Goal: Knowing Thyself Beyond the Body (50:14–54:44)

• Dave and Ishaan discuss the pitfalls of body attachment—why true immortality, growth, or life extension is incomplete without spiritual self-knowledge.
• The story of Shankaracharya "body-hopping" to learn new experiences—illustrates shedding attachment to form.
• Meditation is not optional in true longevity—it’s a “very important part of learning thyself.”

  “A person who's part of the longevity movement has to then take meditation not as recreation, but as a very important part of learning thyself.” —Ishaan (54:26)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Chanting is like guacamole. It makes everything taste better.” —Ishaan Shivanand (05:54)
• “When I put fat in [coffee], then it was calm. The coffee could match my consciousness.” —Ishaan Shivanand (13:09)
• “Anything that can help us overcome the monkey mind should be utilized to reach that goal.” —Ishaan Shivanand (34:08)
• “Death is the most important journey you'll make. You have to go from point A to point B. You have to be alert, fully conscious.” —Ishaan Shivanand (41:32)
• “If you only know the body and your five senses, then you know nothing.” —Ishaan Shivanand (53:14)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Meditation Training Path: 02:45–05:05
• Chanting and Vibration: 05:05–08:53
• East–West Spiritual Connections: 09:11–14:42
• Visualization Techniques: 22:41–25:52
• The Gold Metaphor: 26:18–29:41
• Breathwork, Psychedelics, Shortcuts: 31:00–36:22
• The Art of Dying, Immortality: 40:05–48:35
• Transcending Body Consciousness: 50:14–54:44

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Tone & Style

The episode is a lively, good-humored, and occasionally irreverent dialogue, spiced with laughter, striking stories, and cultural references. While very accessible, it delivers profound spiritual and scientific insights—true to both Asprey's data-driven biohacker style and Ishaan’s storytelling rooted in ancient wisdom.

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Takeaways

• True biohacking and longevity include spiritual techniques (breathwork, visualization, grounding, conscious dying) as much as modern science.
• Ancient traditions hold deep technologies for mind and body control—now being rediscovered and validated in the West.
• Immortality is meaningless without joy, dharma, and self-knowledge; the body is a vessel, but consciousness is the real ground for transformation.
• Both shortcuts (tech, psychedelics) and tradition have their value when used with respect, guidance, and clear intent.

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For more on Ishaan Shivanand’s teachings: practiceofimmortality.com
To connect with Dave Asprey and further resources: Visit The Human Upgrade Podcast.

Transcript

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Death is the most important journey you'll make.

[Dave Asprey]

How long do people live for?

[Ishaan Shivanand]

As long as they want. You have that control of choosing your death.

[Dave Asprey]

I plan to live to at least 180, but when people press me, I say I'd like to die at a time and by a method of my choosing. And you just named the method that I would choose whenever I'm done.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

I was then very thankful and blessed that the path of was given to me. Doesn't matter who you are.

[Narrator/Host]

Ishaan Shivanand is a spiritual teacher and the founder of Yoga of Immortals. He teaches people how to calm the mind, heal stress and build inner strength through ancient meditation practices. His work helps people feel more alive, more aware and more connected to themselves.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

It is something that can benefit everyone. You can have your own religious ideology, yet this is a path that can benefit you. It doesn't pit you against anyone or anything. It just makes you feel so much good and better about life. It makes you poetic, it makes you joyous, it makes you celebratory. It can give you that control on your cardiovascular system. It can help you regulate your prana, your life force energy. It just motivates you to try to be incrementally better than what you were yesterday. You have to be a certain type of personality to enjoy that. It's a different state of mind and not everyone can do it.

[Narrator/Host]

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[Ishaan Shivanand]

Live better.

[Narrator/Host]

Live beyond.

[Dave Asprey]

You studied meditation for. For many years. Tell me about the specific training you went through for your meditation.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

So the first thing that we need to do when we are practicing meditation, studying as kids is chanting mantras. That takes the mind into a state of. I think the English term would be like, like a trance hypnotic. Right. And it's, it's doing the same mantra again and again. And when I say mantra, I don't want it to be confused with prayer or stuti. Stuti means you are thinking of a deity and you're trying to butter the deity with words.

[Dave Asprey]

Right.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

These are sounds like, like the Vedic sounds. They, they are just taking you in a trance and you have to repeat again and again. And that for a child is quite easy. After mantras, the second step of training is visualization. Ay, ay, yeah. So much focus is given on visualization.

[Dave Asprey]

Yes.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

So we are told to visualize realms and intricate. Then even the deities we are told to visualize. And the whole process is not that you just think of some person in a meadow. No, it's from head to toe, how many arms, what jewelry, what weapon? Everything. So that makes your visualization go to another level and realm. Then there is awareness training. So after the visualization comes, now learn to bring your consciousness to your body where you are sitting. And it sounds simple, but it is the basis of yog nidra. It takes a lot of time. It was the toughest for me, so I had to do a lot of physical exercises like yoga, martial arts to have that down. And finally the fourth stage is the breath work. So breath work is where now you've learned where to take your awareness. Now with breath work, you can learn to take your pran. Your life to certain parts of the body. And the advanced stages, you can learn to leave the body and go to some other dimension.

[Dave Asprey]

Yes, yes.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

So that's progressively basic structure of how meditation was taught to us.

[Dave Asprey]

That's so fascinating. About three days ago in Ecuador, I was leading a meditation and breathwork session where I taught people to leave their bodies for the first time. These are all westerners and I had no idea that was possible. But in the west we don't go to monk school the way you did. And most Westerners Never chant anything. What happens if we skip the chanting?

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Why? Westerners like to do everything? Why skip the good parts of everything? Every time I come to the west, there's something from the east. Like doner kebab, amas, guacamole from south. Everything Westerners have taken. Why not take chanting also? It's a good thing.

[Dave Asprey]

So chanting is like guacamole. I think I get it.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Yes. It makes everything taste better.

[Dave Asprey]

This is so good.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

And you could do without guacamole. But then what is a sandwich without avocado? Then it's not fancy. Then I can't justify paying $10 for it.

[Dave Asprey]

Got it?

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Yes.

[Dave Asprey]

So yoga teachers can charge more for chanting.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

I don't know how much they charge. Let's discuss the business plan.

[Dave Asprey]

Oh, man. You're way funnier than I thought you'd be. Why do we chant sounds from an ancient language instead of just chanting? You know, guacamole. Guacamole.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

It is not words with meaning, just the sounds.

[Dave Asprey]

Like Om kind of a thing.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Sound as vibrational.

[Dave Asprey]

I like that.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

So vibrational frequency. So, for example, Nama, shiva. So what they are saying is in the beginning, there's nothing, and then there is sound, vibration. Then from that sound, energy can become matter. So I'm saying these sounds that are the birth of language, the sounds that are the birth of matter itself. And that matter becomes earth, water, fire, you know, everything that Captain Planet was. Yeah. So they become that. And then when I'm saying those sounds, I am taking myself to that primordial state of consciousness. So it's more to do with vibration than meaning. Because meaning then has my own definition of truth. Then everybody's truth is different. And everybody is coming from a lineage or a sect. But when I'm talking about vibration, is this the same for me and you? It's the atom that are vibrating inside, that have no gender, no color, no age, immortal.

[Dave Asprey]

Not even a political party. Imagine that.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

I was told that in America, if you talk about politics, you get whooped.

[Dave Asprey]

About one side or the other. I found that it's safe to make fun of both parties at the same time.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Ah, I like my visa stamped. So very nice. Everything good? Good.

[Dave Asprey]

Well played. It's not that different, though. Even in the West. I know if you study the Bible, it's. In the beginning, there was the Word. That's a vibration. In fact, every one of the ancient lineages that I've been exposed to has a story like that.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

The Word was with God, and the Word was God. That is the supreme consciousness. That is the thing that any saint who meditates and connect to the supreme, we call him a Siddha. Siddha means the awakened one, the enlightened one.

[Dave Asprey]

Right.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

So it's just different that the people who wrote the Bible were the saints who were geographically meditating in that part of the world. And the people who wrote the Vedas are the same, the enlightened ones. So now they are not those people. They are just vessels of that supreme consciousness.

[Dave Asprey]

And there's some evidence that I think is pretty credible that Jesus may have spent about seven years learning in India too. Have you come across that?

[Ishaan Shivanand]

I don't know evidence where I come from? It's a common knowledge.

[Dave Asprey]

Even better. Yeah.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Because Kashmir was the place where King Lalita Ditya had made great monasteries like your Harvard and Oxford. So India had Takshila, Nalanda, great universities where people from around the world used to come.

[Dave Asprey]

Right.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

And he had made this compendium of knowledge in Kashmir which is in the Himalayas and very beautiful, very divine. And it is said that migration did happen and the learning did happen. And that is the time that is missing from the script.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah, it would make sense. You would think any modern mystic scholar would explore the world for knowledge versus.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

And the Silk Road existed. So there are pathways. And during the time of Lalit Aditya, Kashmir was a great center in the Silk Route.

[Dave Asprey]

I've been out to some of those parts of the world. I went around Mount Kailash in 2004 and explored some remote regions. And there's an incredible history that most Westerners just don't get exposed to.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

You went to Kailash?

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

I'm so happy to be with you.

[Dave Asprey]

Oh yeah.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

How was it?

[Dave Asprey]

Magical beyond belief. That's where I had the idea for creating this biohacking movement that I created. That's where I had my first yak butter tea which doesn't taste very good, but it woke my brain up and it was the inspiration for one of my companies that became very large putting butter in coffee instead of tea.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

But you are the one responsible for that?

[Dave Asprey]

Yes, it was me.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Oh, I started many mornings with you.

[Dave Asprey]

Oh, that's hilarious. It works for meditation, doesn't.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

So I started drinking coffee when I was 24 and then I was sad that why I did not know coffee before.

[Dave Asprey]

Me too.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

But the way they do coffee is very. And And I'll tell you how I started to drink coffee. I was doing this doctorate in naturopathy and when it came to certain diseases with the liver, they gave black coffee en mass.

[Dave Asprey]

Yes.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

So I had taken coffee up my ass.

[Dave Asprey]

You cooled it off first, right?

[Ishaan Shivanand]

No, it's cold brew. So they don't. They say that if you heat the coffee, it kills the. What's it called? Antioxidant properties of.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay. Yeah.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

So that coffee is prepared. You. You take normal water, just put coffee in it and just let it be for 24 hours. Yeah. Yes. And then you just sediment it and then take the coffee. So when I took it up the ass, it felt so nice. Not the taking up the coffee pot.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah. It really is a good coffee high that way.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Yeah. And then I realized if from the buttocks it's so good, maybe from the mouth it's better.

[Dave Asprey]

And then this is the best coffee story ever. Yeah.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

So. And that's when I asked the teachers, can I take some coffee? Is it only suitable from there or from. Of course you can have it. And then I had. And it was very nice. But I realized that the effects and everything, it's. It's very yo, yo. And sometimes it tends to hack the brain. And my consciousness would be at a certain level, but my coffee would make me go to a different level of activity.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

But when I put fat in it, then it was calm.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

That the coffee could match my consciousness.

[Dave Asprey]

Well said. It drove me crazy that you had to blend the butter in to get the full effect. Like, why can't I just eat the butter?

[Ishaan Shivanand]

So plus, it delays the coffee high.

[Dave Asprey]

Right.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

It does prolongs it.

[Dave Asprey]

It changes the entry. I funded research at the University of Washington with a cell biologist named Dr. Gerald Pollock. And he looks at how fat and other substances change water to be thinner or thicker. And for your cells to make electricity, they need to have water. That's the right viscosity, the right thickness. And butter oil and coconut oil were the two oils that made the water change the most. So these little Tibetan women who taught me this, where they were taking a. A butter churn and they would pour some. Some tea and some butter and they would turn like for 10 minutes. Like, why are they doing that? It's because they were changing the water. So when you blend the butter in your coffee, what happens is it changes the water substance in the coffee into something that your body can use immediately. And if you were in Kashmir or you're where I was at Mount Kailash when I first had this, you're up so high that you need the extra energy. So they just. They figured this out maybe by trial and error or maybe, you know, God told them. I don't know. But I certainly felt the effect. And yeah, that's what started that whole thing was really ancient ayurvedic knowledge just brought to the west.

[Narrator/Host]

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[Dave Asprey]

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[Narrator/Host]

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[Dave Asprey]

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[Narrator/Host]

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[Dave Asprey]

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[Narrator/Host]

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[Ishaan Shivanand]

How does yog butter taste?

[Dave Asprey]

Imagine if you combined feta goat cheese with butter.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Oh, it's on the sour side.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah, it's, it's got that, that cheesy taste. It was not gorgeous. Yeah. Like goat.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

It's not something I would necessarily want to drink except it made me feel good. So fortunately, good quality butter or ghee.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Next time when I go to Kailash, I'll have yak butter.

[Dave Asprey]

Oh, for sure. Definitely do that. I had a lot of spiritual awakenings on that trip. I spent about three months walking around Nepal and Tibet and I planned to go to India and something fell through. And even though my whole tech career I worked for Indian founded companies almost exclusively, every time I've had a trip scheduled to India, it always gets canceled. Even last year I was going to host an event, a five day event with the Dalai Lama and it got canceled. So one of these days I will make it to India.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

I don't know, maybe I can host you.

[Dave Asprey]

That'd be fantastic.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

It was probably only when I was 30 that I read the Bhagavad Gita, which is for in the West. It's basically the Bible of India. Is how an American would describe that it's the primary religious text. Is that a good way to put it?

[Ishaan Shivanand]

One of them.

[Dave Asprey]

What's a better way to put it?

[Ishaan Shivanand]

It is a very powerful religious text. Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

Yes. How do you reconcile? We have Christianity, we have Hinduism, we have Buddhism and we have Islam as like primary groupings of religion around the world. What's the difference between them?

[Ishaan Shivanand]

So I come from a tradition that is called Shiviyog the Shabbats, the monks who were responsible for the Rishi Parampara, the Sadhus, the ones who wrote the scriptures, the ancient ones, you will see that even when they did excavations at the oldest civilizations, one of them, Harappan Mohanjadaru, they found the Pashupatinath seals. So in our lineage, we have seen movements come and go, fads come and go, and religions come and go. But at the core of every religion is a desire, a thirst to transcend the human vulnerability, to reach this supreme consciousness that almost seems like a birthright for us to unlock. And there are these people who walk on earth, the saints, the monks, the first ones. The first ones and all the religions you mentioned who are like, rebel, that I don't want to be like an automaton on the Disney ride. A small world where I just keep on going in circles and trapped in this path that society gives me. I want to open my eyes to the truth. And the goal is one, but the path can be many. So all of them had the same goal. But Buddha took a path of extreme austerity where he meditated in such a manner that his. Because he was inspired from the Shiva yoga philosophies of Aham Brahmasami, that the universe is within me, so I might take a deep dive inside myself. And other religions took different paths. May it be prayer or may it be service, but I feel the goal is always one. And people who do not meditate on what the goal is, they start to use religion for politics. And religion can give you that power as well. It can give you the power to harness that political movement. But the whole point then becomes redundant, that even the movements that you create of that politics around that religion, you are still an automaton on this small world, right? And everything that you create will be taken away from you when the body is taken away from you and you wake up again and again in the same cycle of suffering. So why not we transcend? Why not, just for a moment, we meditate on that goal? And I feel the real essence of every religion is that. So when I look at Christianity or Islam, I do not see them different. When I look at Buddhism, I do not see them as different. I see them as contemporaries who are trying to reach the same goal with a slightly different path, but with the same principles of consciousness as well. And that is where I believe it's common ground. And better to walk together towards that height, because it is a tough journey. And if we forget that goal, then we just start to cut each Other's lines. So better walk together to that same consciousness.

[Dave Asprey]

Very beautiful. And I realize I am going by market size. There are many, many other religions, some of which have profoundly powerful teachings. So this wasn't meant to be the canonical list. So if you're Jewish or Zoroastrian or anything else, I think the same thing applies for you if you're a member of one of those religions. And yeah, it's all the same goal, different paths. But we haven't spoken about visualization very much yet. And if we were to look at teaching people who are new, you' stepped out the the steps in the path. I've done these advanced visualization practices for hours in a monastery, visualizing the crown that someone's sitting on or the throne they're sitting on. And tell me more about how a listener would practice visualization. What is the value in it? For a meditation?

[Ishaan Shivanand]

I will give you spectrum. So the thing that I'm wearing is called sriantra. It is sacred geometry, and it is used the highest form of visualization meditations. So in the center is a dot, which means nothing, and then there's the bhoopar, everything. So there are two cycles in the visualization where first I visualize from nothing to everything, manifestation, and then from everything to nothing, which is dematerialization. And both these cycles are equally important. So this is where an advanced person would want to go. But let's learn to crawl before we run. So a simple visualization module that I like to teach to people is take your awareness to the top of your head and visualize a light. Simple, a light. And when you inhale with awareness, gently take that light down like a golden arrow, down to the base of the spine. So visualize your lumbar, thorax, your coccyx, coccyx, coccyx, coccyx. All the way the light has gone. So you've inhaled. And then as you exhale with your breath, you merge awareness, breath, visualization. So it gives strength to the visualization, makes better nerve connections. What I'm trying to do with visualization. And then the arrow is going up. And as the arrow go up, visualize it becoming brighter, stronger, having the capability to dissolve any and all etheric mental blockages. The focus is on the spinal cord. Look at the spinal cord as if it's an elevator shaft. Hollow. And that is where the light go down from the brain, from the medulla oblongata down to the coccyxes. Cox. Six or sixes.

[Dave Asprey]

Coccyx. There's only one?

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Yeah. Okay. Base of the spine coccyx. And then exhale and it go up. Let's try. So we just go simple Inhale, the arrow go down. Now it's the coccyx. Now exhale, the arrow goes up. And if I do this for a few minutes before I sleep, it will help calm my mind. And it is a very good beginning point of the visualization modality.

[Dave Asprey]

I like that.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

I like your shirt has abs.

[Dave Asprey]

It has like digital abs on it. They have real ones too, but that's nice.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

I also. But they are well protected underneath the fat.

[Dave Asprey]

That's a good strategy. You've mentioned your necklace, the pendant. I was going to ask you about it before you brought it up. It looks like it's also 24 karat gold.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Is it 22?

[Dave Asprey]

22.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Too malleable. I would love it. But it breaks.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah, that's very soft. If it's 25. Okay, so it's pure gold. Is there a reason to use purer gold versus 14 karat gold has great.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Importance in my lineage. If you look at the great goddesses or the gods, when they are represented, is gold. But more than that, in the student and teacher, student teacher relations, gold has supreme significance. The best student is called su patra, meaning a golden vessel. And my teacher, one of the first lesson he gave me was, you must be like gold. And I said, how I can be like gold? He said three things. Number one, he said, you must shine like gold. And shine like gold means gratitude. Have that smile in your face. Be grateful for whatever happens in your life and try to follow that principle. Second, he says malleability. So gold, the purer it is, the more malleable it is. If we are rigid and hard, there can nothing be done with us. So my teacher said, you have to be like gold. And you have to be in a state of surrender when it comes to learning. You cannot learn, Jack, if you don't learn to surrender. So we value that malleability. And the third thing he said, indestructibility. Gold. You put it under the Ocean. Spanish galleon 200 years later. Gold is gold doesn't change, it doesn't corrode. So we want that power with us. The power is anything that shiny. It attracts us. So my teacher said, you have to have a goal. And anything and everything you do must help you reach towards that goal. So your goal should not corrode at all with anything that happens. And if you can do that, if you are gold, then the one thing we value most, superconductivity. Then Whatever the teacher is, you will be able to conduct his wisdom through you, his energy, his grace, his power.

[Dave Asprey]

Wow.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

So that's why gold is important.

[Dave Asprey]

And probably the lineage that. That's most local for me is alchemy, which is, you know, ancient, ancient European practices, although I'm pretty global at this point. But in that practice, they talk about turning lead into gold, but that was just an analogy for turning dull energy into eternal life. Glowing energies. So very, very similar. Focus on gold there, not the physical gold. That's just a metaphor.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Rasayan shastra. You know rasayan shastra? Yeah. That's amazing. So it is transformation.

[Dave Asprey]

Exactly.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

And the person, the most famous alchemist where I come from is called Bogar Nath. And he was able to transform Na pashang, meaning he took the nine deadliest poisons known to man, and he transformed them into the greatest medicine known to man.

[Dave Asprey]

Wow. That's powerful.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

And there is this temple in Palani where he made idol of that na pasang. And it was said to be such a strong medicine that it could heal everything. And then the priests there, what they would do is they would take a coin and they would just scratch the idol a little bit. So after some time, when they checked, the idol was very nice, beautiful from the front, and he was from behind. So then they forbade now anybody touching the idol. But it is said that Bhaganath, before he died, he hid nine such statues, each one more powerful. And when the time would be right, this great medicine and the process of transformation will be revealed to man.

[Dave Asprey]

Oh, wow. Where is this temple? I got to go visit it. I always visit weird old ancient sites.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Palani.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

South India.

[Dave Asprey]

South India. All right. When I finally make it to India, this is going to be on my tour for sure.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Let's go.

[Dave Asprey]

All right, let's go. That'd be fun.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Let's find the nine statues.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay, let's do it. I'm going to lick the back of them, though. Is that okay?

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Time to make another startup. Lick my statue dot com.

[Dave Asprey]

That's so good.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Yes.

[Dave Asprey]

Some of what you've said about breath work being an accelerator for meditation kind of feels like cheating. I mean, what about psychedelics? What about, you know, special sounds that put you in a meditation state? What about electricity running over your brain that puts you in a state. Are those cheating? Are those beneficial?

[Ishaan Shivanand]

When I talk about psychedelic, I have to be very alert and conscious because what happens is we use certain plant medicines for thousands of years, and then an American finds it, and then he starts to use it. Recreationally and then it become a classified control substance, a drug, and then the natives can't use it.

[Dave Asprey]

Yes, it does happen.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

And it becomes very scary for ancient lineages because of that reason. So psychedelics, or I don't want to call psychedelic because that just has that whole lava lamp feel to it. It's awesome. Plant medicine is ancient, it's very powerful. But there is certain way to use it. For example, I will not name the plant, but there is a plant that is used in some of the alchemical processes that we use that if you are unworthy and you use, will show you hell and people go crazy. But if you are worthy and you use it, you can control the gateway to the dimension that you are opening and you can enter and exit. So plant medicine need to be used by somebody who knows the medicine. It's like you don't want a junkie being your anesthesiologist. So there is a whole method to it, there is a science to it, there is a reason and rhyme. And the people who do it, the native, they are the citizens of that realm.

[Dave Asprey]

Yes.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Whereas the people who recreationally use it are tourists to that realm. And tourists always get jumped. Any culture you take it, tourists will always make an ass of themselves. Tourists will always get jumped. Tourists was always disrespect the culture. Tourists will. Tourists don't know what they are doing. They're just there for tick tock. So when we take or we try to understand plant medicine, again, we have to be really dignified of the lineage, process and procedure. That's what I will say. And again, it's cheating if you just want a quick fix. It's cheating if you just want to be tourist. And it's highly addictive and dangerous because life is chaos, life is suffering. And I just come here with a button that gives you some euphoria. Of course you will press that button till death. And that is not how it should be. So that I know about, but electricity I don't know. And sounds, I know about mantras. We were talking and then again, these are catalysts that we use for the process. And why not use the catalyst? Anything that can help us overcome the monkey mind should be utilized to reach to that goal. But the new technological models that have come up, I don't know much about that.

[Dave Asprey]

I've been focusing on those for the past 10 years at my 40 Years of Zen program. This is that five day deep meditation with the lie detector on your brain and looking at all the different ways of accessing altered states that you can get to from meditation or maybe meditation and breath work, but sometimes faster. And I have a chapter on psychedelics and I've done most of them and believe they ought to be legal and that no government has a right to restrict those. Just it, these are a foundational human right. So like I don't care if you say that you have the right and you're the government, you're wrong. So that said, I've gone to great lengths to go travel to the place where they're from and do them with respect with someone who's very well trained. And I think some of them, particularly ayahuasca, can be very dangerous when there isn't proper space holding from someone who knows the medicine. And I've also seen great benefit from, from those types of medicines. So I, I really appreciate your analogy about the, the junkie being your anesthesiologist because you don't want to do these substances if it's for consciousness. You don't want to do them with someone who doesn't know, know the realm that you're going to and how to get your back. So I also appreciate that you'll even mention that they have, they are a part of your lineage because there is psychedelic use in most of the ancient practices. Even ancient Christianity, the cult of Mithras, which basically Christianity borrowed most of its myths from that they all has medicine.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Yeah, not psychedelic practice. Because then again, you know, we can start to think.

[Dave Asprey]

I do go to Burning man too. Medicine, the medicine. I like that. And on that note, things like the American Medical association try to hijack that word to be theirs and to only mean pharmaceuticals. And we're talking about a much larger medicine.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

One day they will crack the code and they'll make a very good medicine with the agent, active agent, and it will help a lot of people and it'll be super expensive that day. You and I must invest in that stock.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay, done. I'll call you if I find it.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Yes. I'll give you example, turmeric. And it's also the problem of the natives as well. Sometimes when it's so ingrained in your culture, you don't really see the value of it.

[Dave Asprey]

Right.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

And you go to an Indian store, you can buy turmeric for $5. So much. And in front you'll go whole food and you'll buy turmeric capsules with active curcumin ingredient for $60. Then many times I go to the whole food store, somebody buying, I'm like, hey, go, go there. It's Cheaper. It's the whole concept. And then, then the ego comes into play that, oh, because it's expensive, it has to be better. And also, who says it, things like turmeric and all these things. The old ladies of the house, who are the first medicine men see medicine men. The ladies are doing it. Medicine woman just doesn't have the ring to it. Medicine person.

[Dave Asprey]

There you go.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

So, you know, they are like those shamans of the house, and they are the ones who bring the concoctions and the health elixirs and tonics. And in a native family dynamic, just especially after the modern education has infiltrated those systems, then you start to see your home and your own family and your own lineage as something that's substandard. And then the same somebody else who looks fancier and a nice fancy sharp suit tells the same thing your grandma was saying for free. It just sounds better. And people are ready to spend so much money on it. You know, I remember I was in New York and this Indian origin, second generation American gentleman comes and he's like, have some, what he called it golden latte or something. And look, it's haldi again. It's something so random in the East. And then he's like, no, this is, this is golden latte. And this has this property and that property. And this I'm looking at. And like, your ancestors must be so sad right now. Now. So it is the whole presentation bit, which I think is. Is the world we live in.

[Dave Asprey]

It is the world we live in. I'm laughing repeatedly here because obviously I'm a white guy, but I talked about putting ghee in coffee and in tea and I talked about the benefits of butter and ghee. And I have given large talks to Indian audiences and they're listening to me tell them to eat exactly what their grandma.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

You are unique because we've always had the ghee.

[Dave Asprey]

I'm like, do what your grandmother said. That's my whole talk.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

But ccc, we've always had the ghee. Yeah. You married it to coffee. We never thought that marriage will work.

[Dave Asprey]

That's true.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

And that marriage is amazing. I agree. So that's your uniqueness. But coming to your point that when you'll say something in India, it will be heard more. And I think the same goes both ways. If I'll say something here, it will be heard more. That's why we are speaking together a hundred percent.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Everybody listen.

[Dave Asprey]

You have a very unique perspective. I'm really enjoying our talk. Let's talk about immortality. How long can People live for as.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Long as they want.

[Dave Asprey]

How long are you going to live?

[Ishaan Shivanand]

As long as I want.

[Dave Asprey]

How long is that?

[Ishaan Shivanand]

I have a few missions. So again, let me give you three stories for frame of reference.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay?

[Ishaan Shivanand]

One is the concept of ikchamrityu. Ikchamrityu is you have your consciousness and you start at base level. Everybody starts at the same base level. Ikchamrityu literally means choosing your death. And when you raise your consciousness and you reach to a certain point in your Sastra, or the thousand petal Lotus and Om Mani Padmeham, the inner gem is revealed to you, then you have that control of choosing your death. We have stories from Bhagavad Gita, Mahabharat, where a warrior has a hundred arrows in him, Bhishma Pitama. And he don't want to die right now because he's inauspicious. He says, fine, arrows are there, but I choose when I die. Yep, I choose how I die. And it is such a very powerful teaching that even when I was kid, young kids were taught. And I am amazed by the denial the west has towards death. Because I work in hospices and people are drugged out of their consciousness.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

It's like death is the most important journey you'll make. You have to go from point A to point B. You have to be alert, fully conscious.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

You won't expect drunk driver to reach destination safe. And your drunk grandma, how will she reach where she has to go? Then she'll be a spirit everywhere, because she never knew how to reach where she has to go. Even in Tibet, you must have studied the Bardo, where so much focus is given on how to die, how to choose death and the way in which. Which you transcend, because that is that point that can take you towards enlightenment if done properly. So icham is something that is a state that can be achieved where I know myself of many cases, of many monks who at a young age said.

[Dave Asprey]

And they leave y. And it's well documented.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

It is also very surreal to witness it. A great friend of mine, and we were meditating together, and he's just young, young. I was. I'm talking. I was what, 14, 15? And he just looks at me, he's like, ishaan, I love you. This, that. And we are meditating. And my teacher comes and he just put flower on his neck. And we are meditating, meditating. And then, you know, as a young monk, there are these. We have our own competition. I'm like, he open eye first. I open an eye first. And Then after some time, my ass just freezes. And then I open my eyes and he's still meditating, smiling. And I'm like, what the hell? And I shake and he's dead.

[Dave Asprey]

Wow.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

And imagine him, he was sitting like this on the asan chair. This eye like this. And his smile on his face. And he's left his body.

[Dave Asprey]

How do you know he wasn't going to come back?

[Ishaan Shivanand]

He turned bulu.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay, that's pretty good science.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Yes. I don't think he's coming by. You know, the tether is broken. Yeah. There are states where you leave, but then you don't break the tether and the body doesn't start decomposing. So that body was gone. Okay. And that is ikhamrutiu. And that is a very powerful state that a lot of lineages talk about. And there reach it. Second is Kayakalp. So Ichamritiyu is choosing death. Kayakalp is choosing body. So there is this story of Chawan. Chavan is this great monk. Today his name is used to sell a lot of stuff. One of a great like multivitamin concoction. Chavan Prash. And it's Chavan Maharshi. So it said that he was in the forest and he was doing some research. And then he look at his reflection and he's like, when did I get so old? And he's like, I still haven't married or dated or you know, have my Fun in Austin 6th Street. So I can't be like an old man. And you know, so he did a series of processes, protocols called Kayakalp. Which means age reversal. Right. Which means that in the cell that regeneration process stopped. So how to kick start that regeneration process so that the body can be at that age you want it to be or you reverse that aging. So Ichamritu and Kayakalp. And the third thing is Dharma. So if you are wanting to live on this planet Earth, I'll tell you a story that in Mahabharata. Again, I am using that reference because you used it first. Bhagavad Gita. There are two figures. One is who is cursed with immortality. And one is who is blessed with immortality. And one who was cursed with immortality is still alive. His name is Ashwadharma. Some people call him the Abominable Snowman. Abober.

[Dave Asprey]

What? Oh, the yeti. Yeah, yeah.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

So you know, he's like this big strong guy in the Himalayas lamenting because he was cursed with the immortality. And then there are the Chiranjeevi, like Hanuman. He's been blessed. So he's still there. He's happy, he's helping whomsoever he want to help. And he also live in the Himalayas, and whenever the time is, he comes to help. So that state of consciousness that Dharma will also then define and decide if your immortality is a curse or a blessing. Because if you are suffering today and if you are immortal, for some people, death is the only sweet release and escape. Now imagine remaining in that state of mental health, disorder and suffering forever and ever.

[Dave Asprey]

Wow.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Or if you are in a state of joy, bliss, ecstasy, and enlightenment, choosing to do Dharma, then your immortality becomes the biggest blessing. So these are the three things that if somebody asked me, immortality, does it, does it not? I said, of course it does. But you have to master the kayakalp, the ichamrityu, and you have to be a great student of Dharma. Otherwise, imagine madness forever.

[Dave Asprey]

You know, in the Western longevity space, I've been working for about 25 years and extending human life. And I have said I plan to live to at least 180. But when people press me, I say, I'd like to die at a time and by a method of my choosing. And you just named the method that I would choose.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Whenever I'm done, we have to then start practicing the art of dying.

[Dave Asprey]

Oh, yeah, it's. If you're born, you're practicing the art of dying, whether you know it or not.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

You are not practicing. You're being pushed towards it.

[Dave Asprey]

Ah, fair point.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

We have to start practicing leaving the body many times in the correct manner.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay. Where can people learn how to leave their body in the correct manner? I know how to leave my body. Lots of different manners, but I don't know which one's correct.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

So that is something that I teach. That is something that, as we discussed, there are schools of thoughts in Buddhism that teach. And I think that grounding that foundation is very, very important. So when I teach, I like to teach it in cycles. One is pratiprasa, which is called rebirthing, birthing from your consciousness, because you were never birthed with consciousness. You just came, you just woke up like a drunk on a street, in a place, in a house, trying to figure out where you are. So it has to be in a state of complete consciousness. And then the opposite of rebirthing is dying. So pratiprasav, in the art of dying, which I believe every spiritual person must, you know, materialization, dematerialization.

[Dave Asprey]

Exactly.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Both the things and what it does is it help people, the power to create, but it help people also with the power to let go. I talk about Art of Dying in the book. There's a whole chapter dedicated to it with a meditation practice. And I got you one.

[Dave Asprey]

Oh, thank you.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Remind me of the title, the Practice of Immortality.

[Dave Asprey]

There we go, the practice. And it's practiceofimmortality.com. and the reason I wanted to have you on, well, you're just an interesting guy with a very broad and unusual. At least in the west side of knowledge, is in the modern longevity movement, we kind of have this dividend. I am on the live as well as you like for as long as you like side of things.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

It is a good side to be.

[Dave Asprey]

And there's another side that's existed for 25 years that I've been in this space where there's some people who kind of fear death. And I've had someone tell me, we're not going to let you die. And I'm like, how dare you stop me from dying if I want to die, there's nothing wrong with that. We all do it at some point. The sun will burn out. It's going to happen at some point. So fearing that isn't a wise move because it just makes you afraid. So there's the avoid death at all costs, which seems like it might be hellish in the Abominable Snowman way. And then there's the live rightfully and joyfully as long as you want. And so I see this division now when we talk about immortality and.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

In.

[Dave Asprey]

Your work, you approach it from a very spiritual perspective. But it's very relevant for those of.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Us we are already immortal.

[Dave Asprey]

Oh, I agree on that perspective. We're talking about our meat bodies, not our spirits.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

So people who have too much body consciousness want to live as they are. There's the story of a person called Shankaracharya, a great monk. He died quite again. See, now I'm using problem with English. He's a baby language. And that's why when I'm talking to someone, sometimes they think they are understanding, but I am forced to use a vernacular that will suit English. And many times I have to take the poetry of an ancient language and chop it down with a cookie cutter to make it sound English.

[Dave Asprey]

It's good for like angry rap though. You got to give us that. English is good for like the angry rappers when they're just, you know, throwing down. Yes, yes, Research that.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Yes. And other things as well. Is good for ordering coffee at Starbucks. And so this guy, he left his body at an early age chronologically because he Finished his mission. But there is this point where there was a lot of bad things that were happening in the name of religion. So he partook in debates, theological debates with various schools of thought where he wanted to show that there is a better way than subjugation of women. Etc, right? So one time he was debating this scholar called Madan. And how this debate would happen is you would wear a garland of flowers and as your beliefs will weaken, the flower will wilt.

[Dave Asprey]

Wow.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

And if your beliefs are strong, the flowers will remain fresh. So modern flowers started to wilt. And Shankaracharya, he was happy. The debate is about to end. But Madan then tag teamed his wife and his wife started to ask all questions about sex and intimacy and things that Shankaracharya, being a monk, didn't know anything about. So he said wait. And he took a break from the debate and he went and left. His body is called Parkaya Pravesh. Again, it's something very normal in meditation and Tantra practices where you leave this vessel and you find another vessel. So if this vessel somehow is not suiting my goal, I find another vessel. So he went and he saw that there was a prince dying in Bengal and he entered him. And being a prince then he had all these princesses, he had all these, you know, the rap video things he, he learned, enjoyed, experienced, transcended, came back to his body and did a debate and won. So people, when they are saying they are afraid of death, it is a fear of losing the only thing that you know. And if you only know the body and your five senses, then you know nothing. Jon Snow, where did that come from? Game of Thrones.

[Dave Asprey]

Game of Thrones, exactly.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

Yeah. I see things go in my mind and then I don't know where they are from. So you know nothing because you are just thinking that this is it, this is my body, this is my senses. And if I leave this, if I leave this, then I have nothing. I don't have my name that I work so hard to build. I don't have this. These hands through which I touch and feel. I don't have my eyes. And that's why they want to prolong it. They want to cyborg themselves, they want to cryogenic themselves or they want to transfer their brain into a robot or a computer or whatnot have you. But it's because you only know this much. So you want to preserve this much, right? You only know the flower, so you want to freeze the flower. You don't know the tree. And if you know the tree, you know the seed. If you know the seed, you can recreate the tree as many times as you want in ways and manners that you can't even comprehend right now.

[Dave Asprey]

Beautiful.

[Ishaan Shivanand]

And that's where I believe that a person who's part of the longevity movement has to then take meditation not as recreation, but as a very important part of learning thyself.

[Dave Asprey]

Exactly. Wow. How beautifully put. That's why my most recent book was number one best selling philosophy and meditation book. And I'm a longevity guy because I don't think I could do the longevity practice without all the weird meditation stuff that I've done. I just don't think it works. And no matter how many supplements I take, you know, they're a part of it, but they're not the end of it. So thank you for for positioning it that way. That, that really gives me food for thought. And thank you for coming out to Austin and being on the show. I think a lot of people are going to really enjoy the wisdom you shared. Yeah, thank you very much.

[Narrator/Host]

See you next time on the Human Upgrade Podcast.

[Dave Asprey]

The Human Upgrade, formerly Bulletproof Radio, was created and is hosted by Dave Asprey. The information contained in this podcast is provided for informational purposes only and is not intended for the purposes of diagnosing, treating, curing, or preventing any disease. Before using any products referenced on the podcast, consult with your healthcare provider carefully, read all labels and heed all directions and cautions that accompany the products. Information found or received through the podcast should not be used in place of a consultation or advice from a healthcare provider. If you suspect you have a medical problem or should you have any healthcare questions, please promptly call us. See your healthcare provider. This podcast, including Dave Asprey and the producers, disclaim responsibility for any possible adverse effects from the use of information contained herein. Opinions of guests are their own and this podcast does not endorse or accept responsibility for statements made by guests. This podcast does not make any representations or warranties about guest qualifications or credibility. This podcast may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products or services. Individuals on this podcast may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services as referred to herein. This podcast is owned by Bulletproof Media.